high cholesterol

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/13/2004 8:43:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, fskelton@... writes:

cholesterol was on the high side

I reduced my cholesteral from 224 to 130 solely with the use of psyllium and guar before dinner (IT each) and oat bran cereal over a year. No weight loss and only diligent thinking about CRON. Peg

[Guest guest]

>>Any other advice, comments, suggestions would be appreciated.

Recent work by called the " portfolio diet " was show to lower

cholesterol and LDL about 29%. Besdies the vegetarian diet high in soy

protein, soluble fiber and a serving of nuts a day, the 2 supplemental

components of it were 3 servings of supplemental soluble fiber psyllium a day

(metamucil). The other one was plant sterols which he included 2 servings of

benecol a day. WHile I wouldnt recommend the margarines or the juice that the

plant sterols come in, as they both provide empty calories, you can now get

these plant sterols in supplement form, one being Benecol gel caps. I beleive

the daily dose provides about 10 calories. Each one of these components is

estimated to lower cholesterol and LDL about 5-10 percent and the effect is

cumulative when they are combined. You can find the info on the internet or if

you would like the actual study or the lay info on it, just let me know and I

will send it to you.

Jeff

[Guest guest]

Hi Francesca:

Check out something called the 'Portfolio Diet'. It would fit well

with CR and emphasizes certain specific foods that have demonstrated

a combined ability to reduce LDL significantly. Bug me sometime. I

probably still have a copy of the study somewhere. (It was done in a

Toronto hospital).

Rodney.

> I was shocked yesterday when the doctor called and she said that my

> cholesterol was on the high side. Not high enough to go on meds,

but high

> normal. The doctor knows about my CRONIE diet and suggested that

this was

> obviously due to genetics. For complex reasons that I won't go

into, I'm

> sure this was not a lab mistake.

>

> I searched the web and found the newest solutions are a substance

made from

> orange and tangerine peels. Does anyone know more about that? I

also

> decided to try to eat more soluble fiber such as oat bran and guar

(I

> recently had cut way back on eating guar pudding).

>

> Any other advice, comments, suggestions would be appreciated.

[Guest guest]

My experience is that > more exercise < is the key to lower

cholesterol.

My cholesterol came down from a high of 280, to a low of 140 in six

months time when I started walking/running daily.

Wally

Wallace Dickson

wdickson@...

(202) 265-0591

-----Original Message-----

From: Francesca Skelton [mailto:fskelton@...]

Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 8:43 AM

support group

Subject: [ ] high cholesterol

I was shocked yesterday when the doctor called and she said that my

cholesterol was on the high side. Not high enough to go on meds,

but high normal. The doctor knows about my CRONIE diet and

suggested that this was obviously due to genetics. For complex

reasons that I won't go into, I'm sure this was not a lab mistake.

I searched the web and found the newest solutions are a substance

made from

orange and tangerine peels. Does anyone know more about that? I

also

decided to try to eat more soluble fiber such as oat bran and guar

(I recently had cut way back on eating guar pudding).

Any other advice, comments, suggestions would be appreciated.

[Guest guest]

Yes but that could be for several reasons: for example because you probably

lost weight. I am at a low weight: 115 pds.

on 5/13/2004 9:24 AM, Wallace Dickson at wdickson@... wrote:

> My experience is that > more exercise < is the key to lower

> cholesterol.

> My cholesterol came down from a high of 280, to a low of 140 in six

> months time when I started walking/running daily.

> Wally

[Guest guest]

Hi Francesca:

From personal experience, and from experiences of close friends, I do

not have much faith in any GPs knowledge of these things.

Consider whether the following may be the explanation for your recent

high numbers. Male and female lipids numbers are completely

different and many doctors do not take account of the differences,

and perhaps may not have in your case:

Females normally have much higher LDL than males after menopause,

even if they had great numbers before menopause. I have known of

other (female) doctors to ascribe high numbers after menopause

to 'genetics' WHEN IT COULD NOT POSSIBLY HAVE BEEN THE CASE BECAUSE

THE NUMBERS HAD BEEN GREAT EARLIER!!!!! Yet the doctor, too busy to

bother to even take a look at the patient's earlier data, drew a

ridiculous conclusion. It appears to be a regular 'cop-out'

explanation for a GP who doesn't want to spend time to make a serious

assessment of the patient.

Second, the heart disease risks for a male and a female with exactly

the same lipids values are COMPLETELY different. There is much less

risk for a female than there is for a male. Check out the Framingham

website where they have a simple little program that calculates your

heart disease risk from your lipids data. (No one in this 'test'

gets a result lower than a 10% probability of an 'event' in the next

ten years.) You may find that your numbers, because you are female,

may give a 10% risk. If so, then you are laughing. (But if you were

to enter the exact same numbers for a male the risk would be a lot

higher).

You can also check out the New England Centenarian Study. They have

a more detailed longevity calculator. My bet is you will probably

come out with a number in the mid-to-high 90s. (I believe it is

impossible to get a predicted age above 99 on this test).

Try them. I would trust these tests over any GPs opinion. Just my

own experience.

I greatly respect my GP in part because she acknowledges that I

likely know more about the lipids data than she does. She doesn't

make any effort to inflict her views on me because she recognizes the

deficiencies in her training in these matters and has enough self

confidence to feel no need to try to cover that up.

In other matters she can be quite assertive, however!

Rodney

> I was shocked yesterday when the doctor called and she said that my

> cholesterol was on the high side. Not high enough to go on meds,

but high

> normal. The doctor knows about my CRONIE diet and suggested that

this was

> obviously due to genetics. For complex reasons that I won't go

into, I'm

> sure this was not a lab mistake.

>

> I searched the web and found the newest solutions are a substance

made from

> orange and tangerine peels. Does anyone know more about that? I

also

> decided to try to eat more soluble fiber such as oat bran and guar

(I

> recently had cut way back on eating guar pudding).

>

> Any other advice, comments, suggestions would be appreciated.

[Guest guest]

The link entitled Veganism Lowers Cholesterol Levels, near the end

of this message, tells about a man who exercised intensely and changed

to a healthy diet. His weight and blood pressure went way down, but his

cholesterol only went from 250 to 230. He got it down to 169 by cutting

out all animal products and eating a vegan diet.

 

 

 The Facts on Diet and Heart Disease

This is from FOOD REVOLUTION, HOW YOUR DIET CAN HELP SAVE YOUR LIFE AND

THE WORLD, by Robbins. Berkeley, Conari Press, 2001.

Page 11: Burton Baskin, founder of Baskin-Robbins, ate lots of ice cream

and had fatal heart attack while in his early fifties.

Page 12: Ben Cohen, founder of Ben & Jerry's ice cream need quadruple

bypass surgery at age 49.

Page 14: " ...medical research is telling us that vegetarians and vegans

(vegetarians who consume no diary products or eggs) not only have far

less heart disease, but also have lower rates of cancer, hypertension,

diabetes, gallstones, kidney disease, obesity, and colon disease. They

live on average six to ten years longer than the rest of the population,

and in fact seem to be healthier by every measurement we have of

assessing health outcomes. "

Messina, Virginia, and Messina, Mark THE DIETITIAN'S GUIDE TO VEGETARIAN

DIETS: ISSUES AND APPLICATIONS (Gaithersburg, MD: Aspen Publishers,

1996), p. 58.

Page 16: " What is the single greatest risk factor for heart disease? A

high blood cholesterol level. [ , , " Athersclerotic Risk

Factors: Are There Ten or Is There Only One? " , AMERICAN JOURNAL OF

CARDIOLOGY 64 (1989): 552. ] And what is the single most important

factor in raising blood cholesterol levels? The consumption of saturated

fat. The correlation between cholesterol levels, saturated fat intake,

and heart disease are among the strongest and most consistent in the

history of world medical research. This is why every authoritative

healthy body in the world, from the American Heart Association to the

World Health Organiztion to the National Heart, Lung and Blood

Institute, is calling for reductions in saturated fat consumption. "

Page 18: Actor Garner, who was paid to say that beef is " real food

for real people " was hospitalized for a quintuple bypass operation.

Page 19:

" Blood cholesterol levels of vegetarians compared to non-vegetarians: 14

percent lower " [Resnicow, K., Barone, J., Engle, A., et al., " Diet and

Serum Lipids in Vegan Vegetarians: A Model for Risk Reduction, " JOURNAL

OF THE AMERICAN DIETETIC ASSOCIATION 91 (1991):447-53. See also West,

R.O., et al., " Diet and Serum Cholesterol Levels: A Comparison between

Vegetarians and Nonvegetarians..., " AMERICAN JOURNAL OF CLINICAL

NUTRITION 21 (1968):853-62; Sacks, F.M., Ornish, D., et al., " Plasma

Lipoprotein Levels in Vegetarians: The Effect of Ingestion of Fats from

Dairy Products, " JOURNAL OF THE AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION 254 (1985):

1337-41; Messina and Messina, THE DIETITIAN'S GUIDE TO VEGETARIAN DIETS.

]

" Risk of death from heart disease for vegetarians compared to

non-vegetarians: Half " [, R., et al, " Coronary Heart Disease

Mortality among Seventh-Day Aventists with Differing Dietary Habits, "

AMERICAN JOURNAL OF CLINICAL NUTRITION 31 (1978):S191-8; Burr, M., et

al., Vegetarianism, Dietary Fiber, and Mortality, " AMERICAN JOURNAL OF

CLINICAL NUTRITION 36 (1982), 873-7] There were several more studies

listed. These studies are of vegetarians, not vegans. Most vegetarians

consume diary products and eggs, which contain animal fat and

cholesterol. Vegans would be much better. There are hardly any vegans

who have been following the diet long enough to make a study.

Vegans have 35 percent lower cholesterol than non-vegetarians. [

Resnicow, et al., " Diet and Serum Lipids in Vegan Vegetarians. " ]

Page 21:

Average cholesterol level in the United States: 210

Average cholesterol level of U.S. vegetarians: 161

Average cholesterol level of U.S. vegans: 133

[references given in the book]

" Castelli, M.D., Director of the Framingham Health Study, says

that when people keep their cholesterol levels below 150, they are

virtually assured of never suffering a heart attack. 'We've never had a

heart attack in Framingham in 35 years in anyone who had a cholesterol

under 150.' "

" It can be stunning how quickly people with heart disease improve when

they adopt a low-fat vegan diet. Patients enrolled in the McDougall

Program at St. Helena Hospital in Santa , California, consistently

show dramatic improvement after only two weeks on a very low-fat vegan

diet. "

Page 25: The Ornish program involves a low fat diet, exercise,

meditation, and emotional support groups. However, only the diet is

needed to get results.

" Interestingly, however, Cleveland Clinic general surgeon and researcher

Caldwell B. Esselstyn, M.D., has demonstrated comparable results using a

low-fat near-vegan diet, without employing the other factors in the

Ornish program. Reporting in the AMERICAN JOURNAL OF CARDIOLOGY,

Esselstyn wrote, 'In this study, patients become virtually heart-attack

proof. We achieved these excellent results without structured exercise,

meditation, stress management, and other added lifestyle changes.' "

[Esselstyn, C.B., Jr., " Updating a 12-Year Experience with Arrest and

Reversal

Therapy for Coronary Heart Disease, " AMERICAN JOURNAL OF CARDIOLOGY 84

(1999): 339-41. " ] See his excellent website,

http://www.heartattackproof.com

Page 26: In North Karelia, in eastern Finland, people used to have the

highest heart disease rates in the world. A campaign to reduce

consumption of fatty foods reduced heart disease there by 65%.

Pages 28-29: references are in the book

" Most common problem for which people go to doctors in the United

States: High blood pressure

Ideal blood pressure: 110/70 or less (without medication)

Average blood pressure of vegetarians: 112/69

Average blood pressure of non-vegetarians: 121/77

Incidence of high blood pressure in meat eaters compared to vegetarians:

13 times higher

Incidence of high blood pressure among senior citizens in countries

eating traditional low-fat plant based diets: Virtually none.

Do you want a long healthy life? Do you want to avoid heart disease and

be slim? There is a miracle cure. It doesn't even cost anything. What is

it? A vegan diet. The scientific proof is overwhelming.

  

 Veganism Lowers Cholesterol Drastically

Most Americans have the false idea that they can avoid heart attacks

by just cutting back on red meats and eating more chicken, fruits, and

vegetables. Here is an interesting article about a man with very

unhealthy cholesterol, weight, and blood pressure who found through

experimenting that only a pure vegan diet could make him healthy. He

also did a very gruelling regimen of exercise.

However, studies by Dr. Ornish found that a vegan diet is really all

that is needed. Exercise, meditation, and group therapy, which were all

part of Ornish's original program, were found to have little effect. The

vegan diet was the key.

Veganism Lowers Blood Cholesterol Levels

Address:

http://goinside.com/99/4/lower.html Changed:9:18 PM on Wednesday,

November 8, 2000

Studies of centenarians found that they ALL had very low

cholesterol levels. Most of them weren't vegans. Some were vegetarians

and the rest had very good genes. About one out of 10,000 people can eat

large amounts of fat and cholesterol and still have very low cholesterol

levels.

In Cholesterol Lowering, Moderation Kills

Address:

http://www.heartattackproof.com/moderation_kills.htm Changed:10:29 AM on

Thursday, May 13, 2004

http://forums.delphiforums.com/veganhealth7

http://forums.delphiforums.com/thin

http://forums.delphiforums.com/shiningstar23

[Guest guest]

Cholesterol is fascinating. Some CRFolks are nearly vegan,

have a BMI below 18.0, and are rail-thin skinny. Yet they have

startling high cholesterol values above 200. So genetics

can definitely play a major role for some of us.

Also, cholesterol values must be " 12-hour fasting " values, since

food consumed within 10 or 12 hours of taking the measurement

gives an unreliable reading. That one factor alone explains some

deviant values that surprise people.

Most helpful in interpreting cholesterol readings is to post all

the different component values from your test score readings:

Total triglycerides, HDL, LDL, etc... These values taken

together are important to be able to interpret readings meaningfully. If

these values are available, let's get them

posted for all people who want their cholesterol levels

evaluated in a meaningful way.

Getting (and posting for interpretation) cholesterol reading

results (all components needed) from your doctor is a positive

step forward we all can take for better health. Our cholesterol

(lipid level) scores relate closely to heart disease risk and

future sudden heart attack risk. -- Warren

============================

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Francesca Skelton [mailto:fskelton@...]

> Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 5:43 AM

> support group

> Subject: [ ] high cholesterol

>

> I was shocked yesterday when the doctor called and she said

> that my cholesterol was on the high side. Not high enough to

> go on meds, but high normal. The doctor knows about my

> CRONIE diet and suggested that this was obviously due to

> genetics. For complex reasons that I won't go into, I'm sure

> this was not a lab mistake.

>

> I searched the web and found the newest solutions are a

> substance made from

> orange and tangerine peels. Does anyone know more about that? I also

> decided to try to eat more soluble fiber such as oat bran and

> guar (I recently had cut way back on eating guar pudding).

>

> Any other advice, comments, suggestions would be appreciated.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Well, Francesca, I did not lose weight. It was my intent when I

began running and walking 3 to 5 miles daily to lose weight, but I

did not lose weight this way. I lost fat, but gained muscle - for a

net loss of -0- pounds. I reshaped my body somewhat by losing fat

around the waist, but strengthening the leg muscles. However, the

cholesterol dropped dramatically over the period of five-six months

of long distance running which culminated with a marathon run in

Baltimore.

Wallace Dickson

wdickson@...

(202) 265-0591

-----Original Message-----

From: Francesca Skelton [mailto:fskelton@...]

Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 9:31 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] high cholesterol

Yes but that could be for several reasons: for example because you

probably lost weight. I am at a low weight: 115 pds.

on 5/13/2004 9:24 AM, Wallace Dickson at wdickson@... wrote:

> My experience is that > more exercise < is the key to lower

> cholesterol.

> My cholesterol came down from a high of 280, to a low of 140 in

six

> months time when I started walking/running daily.

> Wally

[Guest guest]

Austad describes the action of the ApoE gene in his book;"why we age". A very readable book and a text in my view. Pg 42 talks about the Papua New Guinean people who have the same bad gene E4, a so-called atheroschlerosis gene. The gene is the reason that Finns have a high rate of heart problems. But Papuans have none apparently due to diet of <5% fat, and a lot of exercise at a level that "would cripple most Americans", even athletes. So the environment plays a part as well as the gene. These are his words not mine.

Pg 101, talks about this protein made by the liver which effects people in later life, so natural selection did not lose it. The unhealthy gene e4 is second most common(7 to 24%), and a healthy e2(5 to 11%) is least common. So this explains to me why I can have low TC, while my wife has high TC on much the same diet.

I deduce that diet will not cure all the high TC problem. Since I/we are not willing to "cripple" ourselves with exercise, I think a statin may be prudent for those with high TC.

Just my take.

The book is relative cheap and definitely a good read for those interested in aging.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Francesca Skelton

support group

Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 7:42 AM

Subject: [ ] high cholesterol

I was shocked yesterday when the doctor called and she said that mycholesterol was on the high side. Not high enough to go on meds, but highnormal. The doctor knows about my CRONIE diet and suggested that this wasobviously due to genetics. For complex reasons that I won't go into, I'msure this was not a lab mistake.I searched the web and found the newest solutions are a substance made fromorange and tangerine peels. Does anyone know more about that? I alsodecided to try to eat more soluble fiber such as oat bran and guar (Irecently had cut way back on eating guar pudding).Any other advice, comments, suggestions would be appreciated.

[Guest guest]

Hi JW:

Three points worth noting. The first is that male and female

cholesterol levels (total and sub-components) are not stable

throughout life - even if diet remained entirely the same.

Second, nor are male and female lipids data 'parallel curves',

either. In particular women's cholesterol levels rise appreciably

after about age 50, with no parallel rise for males. (The only

study I know of that measured lipids values of people of different

ages (from 30s to 80s) and genders was done in Japan, and so may not

be entirely transferable to western cultures).

Third, the heart disease implications for a male and a female of the

same age and identical lipids values are very different. Even with

identical lipids values the female will have a much lower probability

of developing heart disease, according to the Framingham data.

So, I think it is not worth the effort to make inter-gender

comparisons of lipids data. And the differences are not only a

function of possible genetic differences. (My take).

Rodney.

--- In , " jwwright " <jwwright@e...>

wrote:

So this explains to me why I can have low TC, while my wife has high

TC on much the same diet.

[Guest guest]

I see your point. I was not trying to explain all the diff environmental effects, just that there are diffs. Hormones play a part also. After menopause things change for them. I'm still puzzled why they seem to live longer even obese.

The discussion of the ApoE gene explains why some have high TC and others not, even on the same diet, and why some can eat a high fat diet and not have high TC.

In any case, I think a statin is worthy for those with high TC. I doubt I could get our diet to <5% fat, even if I wanted to, and I doubt that changing to that diet after 65yo would be worthy. Maybe <20-25% is what we can do usually.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Rodney

Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 9:26 AM

Subject: [ ] Re: high cholesterol

Hi JW:Three points worth noting. The first is that male and female cholesterol levels (total and sub-components) are not stable throughout life - even if diet remained entirely the same.Second, nor are male and female lipids data 'parallel curves', either. In particular women's cholesterol levels rise appreciably after about age 50, with no parallel rise for males. (The only study I know of that measured lipids values of people of different ages (from 30s to 80s) and genders was done in Japan, and so may not be entirely transferable to western cultures).Third, the heart disease implications for a male and a female of the same age and identical lipids values are very different. Even with identical lipids values the female will have a much lower probability of developing heart disease, according to the Framingham data.So, I think it is not worth the effort to make inter-gender comparisons of lipids data. And the differences are not only a function of possible genetic differences. (My take).Rodney.So this explains to me why I can have low TC, while my wife has high TC on much the same diet.

[Guest guest]

As with most things evaluating your cholesterol is not as simple as just

looking at the total count. Ratio of high (good) to low (not) density

lipoproteins is important. Also in general inflammation levels. It's not the

cholesterol by itself but when the cholesterol gets trashed and you don't

have enough HDL to clear it off... Of course this is a bit simplistic but

you can study up on it.

BTW exercise will generally increase HDL the good stuff, so does alcohol

FWIW :-).

Don't freak out... but perhaps time to pay attention, and figure out your

ratios... Since you body makes cholesterol it isn't as simple as how much

cholesterol you eat, but what you eat in general can make a difference.

Most of the statins not only lower cholesterol but reduce inflammation

levels so it isn't clear to me which is most effective in reducing heart

disease but they do appear to help at risk populations. Some statins have

side effects so you might want to study that too...

JR

PS.. I'm no doctor so listen to yours and read up on it...

-----Original Message-----

From: Francesca Skelton [mailto:fskelton@...]

Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 7:43 AM

support group

Subject: [ ] high cholesterol

I was shocked yesterday when the doctor called and she said that my

cholesterol was on the high side. Not high enough to go on meds, but high

normal. The doctor knows about my CRONIE diet and suggested that this was

obviously due to genetics. For complex reasons that I won't go into, I'm

sure this was not a lab mistake.

I searched the web and found the newest solutions are a substance made from

orange and tangerine peels. Does anyone know more about that? I also

decided to try to eat more soluble fiber such as oat bran and guar (I

recently had cut way back on eating guar pudding).

Any other advice, comments, suggestions would be appreciated.

[Guest guest]

The opportunity to go on statins may not be bad. Although some folks run

into side effects (for which one ought to be carefully monitored, if one

goes this route), they've been associated with decreased risk of Alzheimer's

disease and a variety of cancers, also.

Along with alcohol and exercise, a low-carb diet can raise HDL, to which I

can attest: high carb/low fat HDL = 55 mg/dl; low carb HDL= 105 mg/dl.

Various foods, including nuts, brans, fish, citrus peel/rind, etc., as well

as psyllium, oat bran, and other soluble fibers can lower LDL.

>From: " john roberts " <johnhrob@...>

>Reply-

>< >

>Subject: RE: [ ] high cholesterol

>Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 14:57:15 -0500

>

>As with most things evaluating your cholesterol is not as simple as just

>looking at the total count. Ratio of high (good) to low (not) density

>lipoproteins is important. Also in general inflammation levels. It's not

>the

>cholesterol by itself but when the cholesterol gets trashed and you don't

>have enough HDL to clear it off... Of course this is a bit simplistic but

>you can study up on it.

>

>BTW exercise will generally increase HDL the good stuff, so does alcohol

>FWIW :-).

>

>Don't freak out... but perhaps time to pay attention, and figure out your

>ratios... Since you body makes cholesterol it isn't as simple as how much

>cholesterol you eat, but what you eat in general can make a difference.

>

>Most of the statins not only lower cholesterol but reduce inflammation

>levels so it isn't clear to me which is most effective in reducing heart

>disease but they do appear to help at risk populations. Some statins have

>side effects so you might want to study that too...

>

>JR

>

>PS.. I'm no doctor so listen to yours and read up on it...

>

>-----Original Message-----

>From: Francesca Skelton [mailto:fskelton@...]

>Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 7:43 AM

>support group

>Subject: [ ] high cholesterol

>

>

>I was shocked yesterday when the doctor called and she said that my

>cholesterol was on the high side. Not high enough to go on meds, but high

>normal. The doctor knows about my CRONIE diet and suggested that this was

>obviously due to genetics. For complex reasons that I won't go into, I'm

>sure this was not a lab mistake.

>

>I searched the web and found the newest solutions are a substance made from

>orange and tangerine peels. Does anyone know more about that? I also

>decided to try to eat more soluble fiber such as oat bran and guar (I

>recently had cut way back on eating guar pudding).

>

>Any other advice, comments, suggestions would be appreciated.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi folks:

Regarding psyllium, guar, etc to reduce high LDL: My impression is

(correction welcome) that anyone who has been on CR for more than a

year or so sees a dramatic drop in their LDL - lots of people around

here have astonishingly low numbers.

The WUSTL study confirmed this. The subjects there, who had equally

astonishing numbers, had had pretty standard lipids data before they

had started CRON. The older data were checked by referring to the

subjects' earlier medical records from their GPs.

So anyone who is making a serious effort at CR probably doesn't need

to pay special attention to other methods (psyllium, okra, egg plant,

portfolio diet, etc) to get their LDL down. CR will do it for them.

----------------------

On a related note I have noticed here (very unscientific) an apparent

connection between starch and lipids values. People here who consume

little starch seem to have mind-bogglingly good numbers.

I am going to try to confirm this myself in the next year or so. I

have always eaten a fair amount of starches, and still do, but have

always had pretty good lipids values which I have attributed to a low

fat (10% to 15% of calories) diet for thirty years. So I see no

urgency to improve my lipids numbers further. But they are nowhere

close to those of the starchophobes here.

My current plan (subject to change without notice) is to maintain CR

for at least a year, still eating starches, get my numbers checked to

see if they are mind-bogglingly good. My guess is that they will not

be. Then I will drop starch, wait six months and get tested again.

Hopefully this may help demonstrate whether starch is the factor

responsible for the extraordinarily good lipids numbers of many here -

especially impressive to me are the HDL and triglyceride numbers.

My impression is that some people here who believe they are on a low

carbohydrate diet are actually eating LOTS of carbohydrate. There

aren't many vegetables that are below 55% carbohydrate (calories

percent total). Even spinach, for example, is ~65% carbohydrate -

and that is not exceptional. They are on a LOW STARCH diet, not a

low carbohydrate diet, but do not realize how much carbohydrate the

vegetables they eat contain.

(As usual I will be more than happy to be straightened out about this

if I am mistaken. I.E. if a prolific vegetable eater here can show

us that his carbohydrates represent less than, say, 40% of his

calories).

Rodney.

> The opportunity to go on statins may not be bad. Although some

folks run

> into side effects (for which one ought to be carefully monitored,

if one

> goes this route), they've been associated with decreased risk of

Alzheimer's

> disease and a variety of cancers, also.

>

> Along with alcohol and exercise, a low-carb diet can raise HDL, to

which I

> can attest: high carb/low fat HDL = 55 mg/dl; low carb HDL= 105

mg/dl.

>

> Various foods, including nuts, brans, fish, citrus peel/rind, etc.,

as well

> as psyllium, oat bran, and other soluble fibers can lower LDL.

>

>

> >From: " john roberts " <johnhrob@n...>

> >Reply-

> >< >

> >Subject: RE: [ ] high cholesterol

> >Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 14:57:15 -0500

> >

> >As with most things evaluating your cholesterol is not as simple

as just

> >looking at the total count. Ratio of high (good) to low (not)

density

> >lipoproteins is important. Also in general inflammation levels.

It's not

> >the

> >cholesterol by itself but when the cholesterol gets trashed and

you don't

> >have enough HDL to clear it off... Of course this is a bit

simplistic but

> >you can study up on it.

> >

> >BTW exercise will generally increase HDL the good stuff, so does

alcohol

> >FWIW :-).

> >

> >Don't freak out... but perhaps time to pay attention, and figure

out your

> >ratios... Since you body makes cholesterol it isn't as simple as

how much

> >cholesterol you eat, but what you eat in general can make a

difference.

> >

> >Most of the statins not only lower cholesterol but reduce

inflammation

> >levels so it isn't clear to me which is most effective in reducing

heart

> >disease but they do appear to help at risk populations. Some

statins have

> >side effects so you might want to study that too...

> >

> >JR

> >

> >PS.. I'm no doctor so listen to yours and read up on it...

> >

> >-----Original Message-----

> >From: Francesca Skelton [mailto:fskelton@e...]

> >Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 7:43 AM

> >support group

> >Subject: [ ] high cholesterol

> >

> >

> >I was shocked yesterday when the doctor called and she said that

my

> >cholesterol was on the high side. Not high enough to go on meds,

but high

> >normal. The doctor knows about my CRONIE diet and suggested that

this was

> >obviously due to genetics. For complex reasons that I won't go

into, I'm

> >sure this was not a lab mistake.

> >

> >I searched the web and found the newest solutions are a substance

made from

> >orange and tangerine peels. Does anyone know more about that? I

also

> >decided to try to eat more soluble fiber such as oat bran and guar

(I

> >recently had cut way back on eating guar pudding).

> >

> >Any other advice, comments, suggestions would be appreciated.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

Spinach has, I believe, no starch. CH2Os are thought to increase

triglycerides.

Cheers, Al Pater.

--- In , " Rodney " <perspect1111@y...>

wrote:

> My impression is that some people here who believe they are on a

low

> carbohydrate diet are actually eating LOTS of carbohydrate. There

> aren't many vegetables that are below 55% carbohydrate (calories

> percent total). Even spinach, for example, is ~65% carbohydrate -

> and that is not exceptional. They are on a LOW STARCH diet, not a

> low carbohydrate diet, but do not realize how much carbohydrate the

> vegetables they eat contain.

[Guest guest]

In some people, ANY lowering of weight will lower TC. In SOME people. As I noted my wife who has a "generic" high TC is still high even though it's lower than before the weight loss. In fact her TC has never been as low as mine was when it was the highest (206). It's not just a diet thing. Now maybe if my wife were to get to 100# (not going to happen), she might get below 200 TC. But I know thin people who have higher numbers - it's a liver thing.

So if we can lose weight, eat no fat, whatever, and get to say 150, great. But there are some who will never get below 200 unless they use statins, etc. And as I said before, those people have an annoying habit of living longer too. Everyone in my wife's family - siblings and in-laws have high TC, ranging from 76 to 86yo. Her aunts and mother died 88 - 92yo.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Rodney

Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 7:12 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: high cholesterol

Hi folks:Regarding psyllium, guar, etc to reduce high LDL: My impression is (correction welcome) that anyone who has been on CR for more than a year or so sees a dramatic drop in their LDL - lots of people around here have astonishingly low numbers. The WUSTL study confirmed this. The subjects there, who had equally astonishing numbers, had had pretty standard lipids data before they had started CRON. The older data were checked by referring to the subjects' earlier medical records from their GPs.So anyone who is making a serious effort at CR probably doesn't need to pay special attention to other methods (psyllium, okra, egg plant, portfolio diet, etc) to get their LDL down. CR will do it for them.----------------------On a related note I have noticed here (very unscientific) an apparent connection between starch and lipids values. People here who consume little starch seem to have mind-bogglingly good numbers.I am going to try to confirm this myself in the next year or so. I have always eaten a fair amount of starches, and still do, but have always had pretty good lipids values which I have attributed to a low fat (10% to 15% of calories) diet for thirty years. So I see no urgency to improve my lipids numbers further. But they are nowhere close to those of the starchophobes here.My current plan (subject to change without notice) is to maintain CR for at least a year, still eating starches, get my numbers checked to see if they are mind-bogglingly good. My guess is that they will not be. Then I will drop starch, wait six months and get tested again. Hopefully this may help demonstrate whether starch is the factor responsible for the extraordinarily good lipids numbers of many here -especially impressive to me are the HDL and triglyceride numbers.My impression is that some people here who believe they are on a low carbohydrate diet are actually eating LOTS of carbohydrate. There aren't many vegetables that are below 55% carbohydrate (calories percent total). Even spinach, for example, is ~65% carbohydrate - and that is not exceptional. They are on a LOW STARCH diet, not a low carbohydrate diet, but do not realize how much carbohydrate the vegetables they eat contain.(As usual I will be more than happy to be straightened out about this if I am mistaken. I.E. if a prolific vegetable eater here can show us that his carbohydrates represent less than, say, 40% of his calories).Rodney.

[Guest guest]

Hi all, I just joined this group but haven't introduced

my self. I joined this group because i am a sceptic of the real

intentions of modern western medicine. The medical industry has

evolved into a big money making monopoly with the pharma companies

at the high end of the bargain. I noticed that all of what medicine

does is exchange one illness for another creating a contineous flow

of money to the big pharmas. I am not saying all of western

medicine is bad, but if the basic foundation of treatment is

intoxicating pills, then alternative treatments should be sought. I

have a roommate who is HIV +, and has been for five years. He has

not had any symptoms that seem to come from a viral infection, but

he has had symptoms caused by the treatment he is given. The doctor

tells him he has one of the least toxicating treatment available. I

asked him compare to what, and he could not answer. One of the

leading causes of death among HIV + people is liver damage and not

any of the 29 disease that defines AIDS. Fortunately he has not

shown any signs of liver damage but I am afraid he eventually will.

He is one of the healthiest people I know. I myself get ill more

often than he does and I am HIV-. Currently one of the symptoms he

has is high cholesterol. Another reaction to HAART treatment. Does

anyone here know of any treatment that may help lower High

Cholesterol?

Thanks

[Guest guest]

just a note levels of xholesterol are also related to thyroid function.

--- tina83862 wrote: Make sure you do a bit more homework in this area --hcl

can even

help those with a high lipid profile as well---

high lipid profile is telling you the fats are circulating within the

blood stream---(could be the next phase for those with early

gallbladder disease)---

after the gallbladder is impacted one would think it would spill over

into the bloodstream after of course affecting the liver.

50% according to this one article has some form of low acid --age may

not be as relative as one would think??

acid reflux is an indictor of low acid--and heartburn as well (I had

both) and even feel an improvment here.

I have no idea why one would make less acid?? maybe we all eat too

much protein and fats??? (adkins again)

Since I have added grapefruit juice I do feel better along with the

HCL.

well just more thoughts and ramblings.

tina--as always please do you own DD----(homework)

-- In gallstones , " max " wrote:

> I believe Tina said she has normal lipid and triglyceride levels

but still got gallstones.

> After excess lipids, the next cause of gallstones that comes to

mind is lack of HCl, not only in the stomach but

> also, the small amount secreted from the gallbladder wall that

normally stops the bile pH from rising too high

> and thus prevents the bile from crystallizing. I thought so when

she said that taking betaine-HCl

> is beginning to show results.

> Max

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: " Jay Friedlander "

> To:

> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:04 PM

> Subject: Re: molocure

>

>

> > Might be woth a try - thanks for the suggestion, Tina.

> >

> >

> >

> >> > > > > http://www.molocure.com/colon.shtml

> >> > > > >

> >> > > > >

> >> > > > > has anyone used this??

> >> > > >

> >> > > >

> >> > > >

> >> > > >

> >> > > >

> >> > >

> >> > >

> >> > >

> >> > >

> >> > > ____________________________________________________

> >> > > Start your day with - make it your home page

> >> > > http://www./r/hs

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Learn more from our experience, over 7.000 liver flush stories:

> > http://curezone.com/forums/fd50.asp?f=4

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