Re: antioxidant enzyme network (was B6 supplement)

[Guest guest]

Suze-

>This abstract is suggesting the need for adequate catalase and glutathione

>peroxidase to reduce H202 from SOD to water, but it doesn't mention anything

>about having extra glutathione as can be obtained from NAC. So I wonder what

>would be the problem with extra glutathione, as you suggested in the

>previous email?

I think we're misunderstanding each other.

I think extra glutathione from NAC is a great thing, and I think

anyone taking an SOD upregulator like bacopa absolutely should take extra NAC.

>Well, I do :-) I give Mokie a supplement every day that upregulates SOD,

>glutathione peroxidase, catalase and methionine reductase. But you don't

>like the supplement for other reasons, at least you mentioned as much when I

>posted about it. I actually give her a combo of two products that upregulate

>these things - AOX/PLX (concentrate from wheat sprouts) and I-Plex

>(concentrate from broccoil sprouts).

I've heard of the sprout stuff, but I've never seen any solid

evidence that they actually upregulate catalase (or glutathione, or

SOD, or methionine reductase, or anything else). They may be

worthwhile nutritionally or they may not, but that's a separate

issue. I'm also unimpressed by the reliability of their claims

because they tout the actual SOD, catalase and glutathione peroxidase

content of the supplements, either not realizing or not letting on

that those enzymes are completely useless taken orally.

Do you have any references for their touted effects?

>Both of us feel

>these supplements have played a major role in our dogs' longevity and

>relative youthfulness (His dog is a wolf/GSD cross and is about 11 yrs old

>and mine's a minpin that's 15 yrs old).

I realize your dog has had health issues in the past which might

affect her longevity, but neither of those figures is even remotely

remarkable for a dog fed well instead of given toxic crap like

practically all pets are nowadays.

> His dog was supposed to be dead

>about 6 years ago according to his vet

Why?

>There's a noticable difference in the dog's mobility if he lowers the dose.

OK, so like I said, there might be some nutritional value to the

supplement, but I'd like to see some hard evidence that it

upregulates endogenous antioxidant production before crediting those claims.

>>and processed with minimal heat to ensure the bioavailability

>>of the flavones which result in increased production of the targeted

>>antioxidant enzymes.

Which flavones?

>>Some research indicates that heat destroys these critical precursors or

>>signaling molecules. Therefore, our products are even tableting using a

>>slow, low heat process. The result is a concentrated blend of superoxide

>>dismutase (SOD), catalase (CAT), glutathione peroxidase (GPx) and Methionine

>>Reductase.

And here they are touting the actual SOD, CAT, GPx, and methionine

reductase content of the tablets, and though I haven't checked on

methionine reductase, I expect it's like the other three -- useless

if taken orally.

>>(MET). When tested, AOX/PLXT has consistently shown significant increases

>>in glutathione peroxidase activity endogenously.

So where are the test results?

>> In addition, endogenous

>>increases in SOD and CAT levels in humans and animals has been hypothesized,

>>tested and confirmed by independent, published works in renown scientific

>>journals including " The Journal of Free Radical Biology and Medicine. "

So where's a specific reference or link?

>>Research suggests that the antioxidant enzyme AOX/PLXT increases, is only

>>accomplished by in conjunction with specific interaction with intestinal

>>micro flora (See Citation 1), and perhaps even more importantly, by

>>stimulating or signaling one's own SOD3 gene internally production of these

>>antioxidant enzymes. (See Citations at 2, 3, 4)

Could you post the citations? I'll take a look.

>But I

>thought I remembered that the hydroxyl radical was somehow involved in the

>network, not just in association with MR.

Oh yeah, the hydroxyl radical is definitely involved. Without

adequate catalase and/or glutathione peroxidase, the peroxide

generated by SOD can be turned into OH- by the Fenton reaction. The

involvement of methionine reductase had been a gap in my knowledge

previously, though. (Thanks for pointing me to it!) Methionine

reductase suggests that the Fenton reaction (and therefore too high

of a SOD:CAT/GPx ratio) might (MIGHT) be less of a problem than I'd

previously thought or than is widely assumed.

I wouldn't count on it, though, and there are still plenty of reasons

for many people to take NAC.

>I thought you'd wind up with a lot of H202 not the hydroxyl radical since

>SOD reduces super oxide to H202? In any event, methionine reductase to the

>resuce for the OH-!

Yeah, but having a lot of peroxide around means having a lot of the

Fenton reaction happening which means a lot of OH- being formed

unless CAT/GPx gets to the peroxide first.

>I was interested in what

>you were saying about balancing it out with an SOD upregulator as I'd never

>heard the term before so thought I might be missing some important piece of

>info.

Ah, no, it's not so much that upregulating glutathione requires

upregulating SOD as the reverse.

>Now that I know what an SOD upregulator is I wouldn't bother with Bacopa

>since it only boosts SOD

That would be a mistake. Upregulating SOD is a great thing, and

bacopa also has many other beneficial effects, such as improving memory.

>I'll stick with my comprehensive AOX and I-Plex.

I remain completely unconvinced that they do what they say they do,

and unless there's documentary evidence that I'm wrong, I wouldn't

count on them doing anything significant for you.

>I don't know much about the different forms other than that they are

>dependent on different minerals as you've mentioned.

Well, I know this much: the mangnanese form is used in the

mitochondria and the zinc and copper form is used in the cell outside

the mitochondria, but that's just about the extent of my knowledge on

the types of SOD.

-

[Guest guest]

Not to sound like a broken record or anything, but vitamin A has a

huge sparing effect on glutathione peroxidase in conditions where

glutathione peroxidase gets " used up " by excessive conditions of

oxidative stress, which is why vitamin A is so much more powerful than

vitamin E at saving rats from a lethal dose of dioxin and probably why

CLO reduces oxidative stress instead of promoting it like all other

PUFA oils.

So any discussion about boosting glutathione peroxidase should include

a point about adequate vitamin A furthering that end.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html

[Guest guest]

,

>

>>This abstract is suggesting the need for adequate catalase and glutathione

>>peroxidase to reduce H202 from SOD to water, but it doesn't

>mention anything

>>about having extra glutathione as can be obtained from NAC. So I

>wonder what

>>would be the problem with extra glutathione, as you suggested in the

>>previous email?

>

>I think we're misunderstanding each other.

>

>I think extra glutathione from NAC is a great thing, and I think

>anyone taking an SOD upregulator like bacopa absolutely should

>take extra NAC.

Ah, OK, gotcha.

>

>>Well, I do :-) I give Mokie a supplement every day that upregulates SOD,

>>glutathione peroxidase, catalase and methionine reductase. But you don't

>>like the supplement for other reasons, at least you mentioned as

>much when I

>>posted about it. I actually give her a combo of two products that

>upregulate

>>these things - AOX/PLX (concentrate from wheat sprouts) and I-Plex

>>(concentrate from broccoil sprouts).

>

>I've heard of the sprout stuff, but I've never seen any solid

>evidence that they actually upregulate catalase (or glutathione, or

>SOD, or methionine reductase, or anything else).

Here's a PDF about the original use of AOX/PLX on children who were victims

of the Chernobyl disaster. On page 2 it says that the subjects who took

AOX/PLX showed an increase in the activity of SOD, glutathione peroxidase

and the restored glutathione. The difference between the restored activity

between the control and experimental group was 17.8%.

Also worth noting, the attention span in the experimental group improved by

70.4% whereas in the control group it improved 30%. Not sure how they

measured that though.

http://enzymecompany.com/AOX-PLX_Chernobyl_Study.pdf

This one shows subjective results according to study participants, but the

differences are remarkable between the experimental groups and controls.

This mirrors some of the info I've read from vets using these products.

http://enzymecompany.com/EXCHANGE_PILOT_STUDY_ON_NUTRITION_AND_LONG_DISTANCE

_TRAVEL.pdf

In fact, I started using AOX/PLX because the vet who wrote my favorite book

on holistic health for animals, and whom I took my cancer dog to several

times (12 hr. roundtrip) wrote in his book that he's found in his practice

that 2 tablets of AOX/PLX has the equivalent effect of 2.5 mgs of

prednisone. I decided to switch to AOX from another product I was using

(cili bao) that's only known to increase SOD (not GP, catalase or methionine

reductase).

They may be

>worthwhile nutritionally or they may not, but that's a separate

>issue. I'm also unimpressed by the reliability of their claims

>because they tout the actual SOD, catalase and glutathione peroxidase

>content of the supplements, either not realizing or not letting on

>that those enzymes are completely useless taken orally.

From what I understand, they are IN the tablets, but they, or something else

in the tablets increases the body's endogenous production of these enzymes.

>

>Do you have any references for their touted effects?

See above. I'd also read a few studies done by vets on their patients with

AOX/PLX that indicated the product was good for any sort of joint issue,

IIRC.

>

>>Both of us feel

>>these supplements have played a major role in our dogs' longevity and

>>relative youthfulness (His dog is a wolf/GSD cross and is about 11 yrs old

>>and mine's a minpin that's 15 yrs old).

>

>I realize your dog has had health issues in the past which might

>affect her longevity, but neither of those figures is even remotely

>remarkable for a dog fed well instead of given toxic crap like

>practically all pets are nowadays.

No they're not remarkable, but I didn't mean to imply as much. The thing is

that both dogs have had major health problems and are doing remarkably well

despite their advanced age (for their respective breeds). I'm sure this is

due to a combonation of things, but we both feel the AOX has played a major

role. Mind you, it's the combination of their age and they're apparent

youthfulness despite their serious health health problems that's pretty

amazing, although I won't call it remarkable. I always get a shocked look

when I explain to people who see my dogs that they are 15 yrs. old, although

I'm sure those folks are mostly used to seeing kibble-fed dogs.

>

>> His dog was supposed to be dead

>>about 6 years ago according to his vet

>

>Why?

Due to his severe spondylosis, which is much more problematic for dogs than

humans to my understanding.

>

>>There's a noticable difference in the dog's mobility if he lowers

>the dose.

>

>OK, so like I said, there might be some nutritional value to the

>supplement, but I'd like to see some hard evidence that it

>upregulates endogenous antioxidant production before crediting

>those claims.

I will ask Dr. Fahey (who developed these products) the next time I talk to

him, which will probably be soon. But the above-mentioned studies are all

I've seen online, other than the animal ones which I can't seem to find now.

None seem to be highly controlled studies which I'm sure we'd all like to

see, but in combination with Dr. Goldstein's experience, and my own and my

brother's, I think there is definitely some sort of upregulating of

antioxidant enzymes going on.

>

>>>and processed with minimal heat to ensure the bioavailability

>>>of the flavones which result in increased production of the targeted

>>>antioxidant enzymes.

>

>Which flavones?

Don't know offhand.

>

>>> In addition, endogenous

>>>increases in SOD and CAT levels in humans and animals has been

>hypothesized,

>>>tested and confirmed by independent, published works in renown scientific

>>>journals including " The Journal of Free Radical Biology and Medicine. "

>

>So where's a specific reference or link?

They didn't provide one. I think it might not make a difference though

because that journal requires a membership to view the articles. Having

said that, the AOX site mostly provides links about the endogenous

activities of these enzymes in a general sense, not specifically studies on

THEIR products, other than a handful, most of which I mentioned above.

>

>>>Research suggests that the antioxidant enzyme AOX/PLXT increases, is only

>>>accomplished by in conjunction with specific interaction with intestinal

>>>micro flora (See Citation 1), and perhaps even more importantly, by

>>>stimulating or signaling one's own SOD3 gene internally

>production of these

>>>antioxidant enzymes. (See Citations at 2, 3, 4)

>

>Could you post the citations? I'll take a look.

Sure, but note they are just talking about how the enzyme that their product

increases acts. They are not saying THEIR product is shown to cause these

actions. Plus, some of these citations don't even have abstracts much less

full articles!

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL & _udi=B6T38-4BG83DH-1 & _co

verDate=04%2F01%2F2004 & _alid=355252126 & _rdoc=1 & _fmt= & _orig=search & _qd=1 & _cdi

=4940 & _sort=d & view=c & _acct=C000050221 & _version=1 & _urlVersion=0 & _userid=10 & md

5=e7f07c3da8e2960b317a7c2771bff65e

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL & _udi=B6T38-4BKGCGP-2 & _co

verDate=04%2F01%2F2004 & _alid=355252224 & _rdoc=1 & _fmt= & _orig=search & _qd=1 & _cdi

=4940 & _sort=d & view=c & _acct=C000050221 & _version=1 & _urlVersion=0 & _userid=10 & md

5=9e4a93158daf7ec88b3ff49904a5a951

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL & _udi=B6T38-4BKDRXV-2 & _co

verDate=04%2F01%2F2004 & _alid=355252262 & _rdoc=1 & _fmt= & _orig=search & _qd=1 & _cdi

=4940 & _sort=d & view=c & _acct=C000050221 & _version=1 & _urlVersion=0 & _userid=10 & md

5=473b8fff43a7b22133a64c60b1375a90

>

>>But I

>>thought I remembered that the hydroxyl radical was somehow involved in the

>>network, not just in association with MR.

>

>Oh yeah, the hydroxyl radical is definitely involved. Without

>adequate catalase and/or glutathione peroxidase, the peroxide

>generated by SOD can be turned into OH- by the Fenton reaction.

Ah, OK.

The

>involvement of methionine reductase had been a gap in my knowledge

>previously, though. (Thanks for pointing me to it!) Methionine

>reductase suggests that the Fenton reaction (and therefore too high

>of a SOD:CAT/GPx ratio) might (MIGHT) be less of a problem than I'd

>previously thought or than is widely assumed.

As long as MET is present....

>

>>I was interested in what

>>you were saying about balancing it out with an SOD upregulator as

>I'd never

>>heard the term before so thought I might be missing some

>important piece of

>>info.

>

>Ah, no, it's not so much that upregulating glutathione requires

>upregulating SOD as the reverse.

Gotcha now.

>>Now that I know what an SOD upregulator is I wouldn't bother with Bacopa

>>since it only boosts SOD

>

>That would be a mistake. Upregulating SOD is a great thing, and

>bacopa also has many other beneficial effects, such as improving memory.

Sure, but if AOX/PLX upregulates all of these things then why would I want a

product that only upregulates ONE? Is there solid research showing bacopa

upregulates SOD?

>

>>I'll stick with my comprehensive AOX and I-Plex.

>

>I remain completely unconvinced that they do what they say they do,

>and unless there's documentary evidence that I'm wrong, I wouldn't

>count on them doing anything significant for you.

I don't think the evidence is as strong as you'd like it to be in order to

be convinced. Depends on how much anecdotal evidence plus a handful of

not-so-strictly-controlled studies moves you. I'd certainly like more

well-controlled studies myself, but currently have a lot of personal

experience to go on along with Dr. Goldstein's and my brother's experience,

plus the few studies mentioned, which leads me to believe the product is

having anti-aging effects to some extent.

P.S. to my dogs get a lot of vitamin A! Thanks for telling us of A's

sparing effects on GP, how could we have had a discussion about anything

without giving a nod to vitamin A. LOL ;-)

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

On 1/16/06, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

> P.S. to my dogs get a lot of vitamin A! Thanks for telling us of A's

> sparing effects on GP, how could we have had a discussion about anything

> without giving a nod to vitamin A. LOL ;-)

Suze, vitamin A comes first. They don't call it vitamin " A " for

nothing. If it wasn't of such paramount importance, they'd call it

vitamin... I don't know, " D " or something. By the way, don't let them

take it with cod liver oil, because vitamin D interferes with the

function of vitamin A.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html

[Guest guest]

Chris-

I certainly didn't mean to slight vitamin A; I was just discussing a

very limited portion of the overall antioxidant network. Certainly

if I were going to make a Visio diagram of the importance of various

antioxidants and the possible means of improving one's antioxidant

reserves, A and sources thereof would feature very, very prominantly.

>Not to sound like a broken record or anything, but vitamin A has a

>huge sparing effect on glutathione peroxidase in conditions where

>glutathione peroxidase gets " used up " by excessive conditions of

>oxidative stress, which is why vitamin A is so much more powerful than

>vitamin E at saving rats from a lethal dose of dioxin and probably why

>CLO reduces oxidative stress instead of promoting it like all other

>PUFA oils.

>

>So any discussion about boosting glutathione peroxidase should include

>a point about adequate vitamin A furthering that end.

-

[Guest guest]

On 1/16/06, Idol <paul_idol@...> wrote:

> Chris-

>

> I certainly didn't mean to slight vitamin A; I was just discussing a

> very limited portion of the overall antioxidant network. Certainly

> if I were going to make a Visio diagram of the importance of various

> antioxidants and the possible means of improving one's antioxidant

> reserves, A and sources thereof would feature very, very prominantly.

Right... I just wanted to emphasize that A's mechanism is at least in

part through glutathione-sparing activity. Sorry for intruding :-)

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>Right... I just wanted to emphasize that A's mechanism is at least in

>part through glutathione-sparing activity. Sorry for intruding :-)

Not at all! The more context and info injected, the better!

Since this started off as recommendations for 's sister to

remedy stroke damage, so I just assumed vitamin A was understood as

part of " all the usual nutritional advice " , but that was probably dumb.

-

[Guest guest]

Suze-

> From what I understand, they are IN the tablets, but they, or something else

>in the tablets increases the body's endogenous production of these enzymes.

Oral glutathione, catalase and SOD don't stimulate the body to

produce more itself. They're just destroyed.

>Sure, but if AOX/PLX upregulates all of these things then why would I want a

>product that only upregulates ONE? Is there solid research showing bacopa

>upregulates SOD?

First, I remain skeptical of AOX/PLX and I-PLEX.

Second, bacopa does many very useful things.

Third, it may actually be broader-spectrum than I thought.

>>Antioxidant activity of Bacopa monniera in rat frontal cortex,

>>striatum and hippocampus.

>>

>>Phytother Res 2000 May; 14(3): 174-9

>>

>>Bhattacharya SK, Bhattacharya A, Kumar A, Ghosal S.

>>

>>The effect of a standardized extract of Bacopa monniera Linn. was

>>assessed on rat brain frontal cortical, striatal and hippocampal

>>superoxide dismutase (SOD), catalase (CAT) and glutathione

>>peroxidase (GPX) activities, following administration for 7, 14 or

>>21 days. The effects induced by this extract (bacoside A content

>>82% +/- 0.5%), administered in doses of 5 and 10 mg/kg, orally,

>>were compared with the effects induced by (-) deprenyl (2 mg/kg, p.

>>o.) administered for the same time periods. Bacopa monniera (BM)

>>induced a dose-related increase in SOD, CAT and GPX activities, in

>>all the brain regions investigated, after 14 and 21 days of drug

>>administration. On the contrary, deprenyl induced an increase in

>>SOD, CAT and GPX activities in the frontal cortex and striatum, but

>>not in the hippocampus, after treatment for 14 or 21 days. The

>>results suggest that BM, like deprenyl, exhibits a significant

>>antioxidant effect after subchronic administration which, unlike

>>the latter, extends to the hippocampus as well. The results suggest

>>that the increase in oxidative free radical scavenging activity by

>>BM may explain, at least in part, the cognition- facilitating

>>action of BM, recorded in Ayurvedic texts, and demonstrated

>>experimentally and clinically. Copyright 2000 Wiley & Sons, Ltd.font

>

>

>

>-

[Guest guest]

>>>Antioxidant activity of Bacopa monniera in rat frontal cortex,

>>>striatum and hippocampus.

>>>

>>>Phytother Res 2000 May; 14(3): 174-9

>>>

>>>Bhattacharya SK, Bhattacharya A, Kumar A, Ghosal S.

>>>

>>>The effect of a standardized extract of Bacopa monniera Linn. was

>>>assessed on rat brain frontal cortical, striatal and hippocampal

>>>superoxide dismutase (SOD), catalase (CAT) and glutathione

>>>peroxidase (GPX) activities, following administration for 7, 14 or

>>>21 days. The effects induced by this extract (bacoside A content

>>>82% +/- 0.5%), administered in doses of 5 and 10 mg/kg, orally,

>>>were compared with the effects induced by (-) deprenyl (2 mg/kg, p.

>>>o.) administered for the same time periods. Bacopa monniera (BM)

>>>induced a dose-related increase in SOD, CAT and GPX activities, in

>>>all the brain regions investigated, after 14 and 21 days of drug

>>>administration. On the contrary, deprenyl induced an increase in

>>>SOD, CAT and GPX activities in the frontal cortex and striatum, but

>>>not in the hippocampus, after treatment for 14 or 21 days. The

>>>results suggest that BM, like deprenyl, exhibits a significant

>>>antioxidant effect after subchronic administration which, unlike

>>>the latter, extends to the hippocampus as well. The results suggest

>>>that the increase in oxidative free radical scavenging activity by

>>>BM may explain, at least in part, the cognition- facilitating

>>>action of BM, recorded in Ayurvedic texts, and demonstrated

>>>experimentally and clinically. Copyright 2000 Wiley & Sons, Ltd.font

Wow, ! Bacopa looks like a great broad spectrum antioxidant enzyme

upregulator! I'm positively ebullient!!!!! about this discovery. ;-) Thank

you!

heh.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------