Re: Meat

[Guest guest]

I am no doctor, but I have found that eating healthily is only part of the

issue. Eating happily is also important. If a person feels they need to eat

meat, then they should also feel free to eat it and no-one should try and

convince them otherwise. Advise them to eat healthier meat, by all means,

but to tell them eating meat is wrong either for health or religious reasons

is arrogant. >>

_________________

Dax, a good way to put it, " eating happily. " That sounds wonderful! Never

thought of it that way.

About meat, I do know that there are some illinesses where people cannot

tolerate meat, or any kind of protein for that matter.

Most of us are in the shape that we're in because of the way that we ate,

except some people who inherited the GB problems. There's a lot of dangers

in our food. When I'm talking about dangers here, I'm referring to junkfood,

food loaded with preservaties and such.

To be honest, we all have a lot to learn. Let's take my husband's granny,

for instance. She died in 1999 at 97 years old. That lady ate sweets and

fatty meat most of her life. When I say " fatty meat, " I mean the actual fat

(gross!). And my husband's uncle died in his mid-80s. He smoked unfiltered

Camels, two packs every day, drank way too much beer, ate fatty meat, lots of

eggs, etc., and ate pinto beans with a large hunk of salt pork cooked in

them, every day. He really did eat, drink and be merry! This is no joke.

He died of pneumonia in his sleep. What these two people have in common is

they didn't eat fastfoods and box food, stuff like that. Then look at a

famous vegetarian, McCartney. She died of breast cancer. She wasn't

that old either.

Again, eating happily is a wonderful way to put it. This goes with

moderation.

Susie

[Guest guest]

During my three years of recurring gallbladder problems, the one time I had

absolutely NO problems whatsoever was while I was on the Atkins diet, which

is mostly meat. I also dropped a ton of weight, and felt great. >>

________________

Debra,

I have a good friend that went on the Atkins diet. It worked for him and

lowered his blood pressure, which he does have a bad problem with. It didn't

work well for me. I've tried it several times. I like my meat and veggies.

Now, Dr. Cabot's diet worked well for me. I think it depends on the person

and the problems they're having. When I started on Dr. Cabot's diet, I

increased my drinking of water, which seemed to really help with hunger.

In Dr. Cabot's diet, you eat meat too, just not as much. You're also eating

raw nuts and your healthy fats, like avocado, olive oil, sesame oil, etc.

But then hers is a liver-cleansing diet. There's a basic diet too! You

probably already are aware of her diet.

Susie

[Guest guest]

During my three years of recurring gallbladder problems, the one time I had

absolutely NO problems whatsoever was while I was on the Atkins diet, which

is mostly meat. I also dropped a ton of weight, and felt great. I stopped

because I just got really tired of eating so much meat, and because I think

I am a carb addict. This diet has been around for about 30 years now. It

was developed by a cardiac doctor for his patients, and worked wonders for

them. He recently updated and reissued the book. I know it sounds very

strange, but the book makes a lot of sense, and boy, does it work, and you

are never hungry. If I wasn't such a carb addict, I would do it again. He

has been criticized by the medical " establishment " , yet no one has has ever

been able to document any harm from this diet. Oddly enough, in the

absence of large amounts of carbs, cholesterol levels are healthy, even when

a lot of meat is eaten.

I'm not saying that people " need " meat, or that they don't. I have no

strong feelings about it. I just thought this was something interesting to

throw into the mix.

Debra

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[Guest guest]

Actually, there's plenty of evidence to show that meat eating came

after humans were established as vegetarians. Personally, I know

what to eat enough to not need vitamins or minerals. Vitamins are

not live food and not much gets assimilated as a result. Science has

shown us lots of ways to eat a healthy diet without including animal

products. It's a cultural thing to eat meat. There are millions of

people on the planet who don't eat meat, and don't have vitamins to

supplement their diet. This is happening in cultures who have done

this for thousands of years and have it evolved nutrition into a high

art. India has quite a few, as does greater Asia.

I'm still asking around...does anyone here know any vegans with gall

bladder problems?

-- In gallstones@y..., " Dax " <dax-@n...> wrote:

> Hmmm...I'm not convinced some people don't need meat in their diet.

I do

> agree that the way mass meat is farmed these days is bad for us -

very bad.

> Farming has become a big business and the use of steroids and drugs

is way

> out of control, I feel. But, man has always eaten meat and there are

certain

> aspects of meat that our systems need which is why vegans supplement

their

> diet with various vitamins and minerals or they can become quite

poorly.

>

> I am no doctor, but I have found that eating healthily is only part

of the

> issue. Eating happily is also important. If a person feels they need

to eat

> meat, then they should also feel free to eat it and no-one should

try and

> convince them otherwise. Advise them to eat healthier meat, by all

means,

> but to tell them eating meat is wrong either for health or religious

reasons

> is arrogant.

>

> Likewise, if someone doesn't not want to eat meat for whatever

reasons -

> medical, religious etc - they should be allowed to do so without

being

> attacked for it. It's all about mutual respect. We all have our

beliefs and

> our choices - I think that is what is meant by a free world - and I

think

> most people on this list understand the dangers of eating farmed

meat (the

> stuff full of anti-biotics and steroids) but that is still worth

discussing

> for those who don't already know and to keep abreast of latest

developments.

>

> I rarely eat meat - only when I feel the need to eat it - and that

is by

> choice. I like having the choice. I like to know I can eat what I

want to

> eat if I choose to - it avoids stress which is the biggest killer of

all

> these days.

>

> Dax

[Guest guest]

Dax,

The conversation was about Christian Biblical beliefs through the word of God

'allowing' meat, not dissalowing it. It was not religion telling someone

what not to do as in not eating meat. It was a vegetarian telling us how bad

meat was for us, yet it was defended by the Bible as meat is ok to eat.

I've also never heard of the term 'farmed' meat. What is that? Feed lot

meat I think you may be thinking of. Where huge herds of cattle are fed on

mud lots with no green grass to graze, they only eat what is fed them. Grain

(high carbs to produce fat and marbling within the meat) and hormone implants

to make them put on weight faster so they're sold for a higher price quicker

than 'natural'. I've never heard of steroids being used in cattle and would

venture you mean hormones and not steroids. Steroids, (human) body builders

use to build muscle, not fat and bulk up for competition or whatever suits

them. With cattle they want to bulk up fat, that's hormones and high carb

feeds like grain. Corn, etc.

[Guest guest]

Why do you think that just because your daughter eats dairy products, etc.

that it might have to do with her gall bladder problems? Why do you feel

eating any animal products will lead to ill health, etc.? Maybe your

daughter just ate too many veggies, not to be funny in a serious

situation..but you know....you need to quit trying to blame everything on

meat. Does your daughter drink alcohol? That could be a culprit too. Could

be alot more problems I've no idea about, but I doubt it's all the animal

products she consumes that's the core of her troubles. I hope she is ok by

the way.

[Guest guest]

The term *farmed meat* refers to meat that is mass bred for eating - like

the Kentucky chickens that are so deformed now they don't even look like

chickens anymore.

http://leaky-rh.rock.tap.csiro.au/facts/steroids_txt.html

For info on steroids in beef cattle in Australia - steroids being a general

term.

If I got the wrong end of the stick about the conversation, I apologise.

Dax

[Guest guest]

Why do you think that just because your daughter eats dairy products, etc.

that it might have to do with her gall bladder problems? Why do you feel

eating any animal products will lead to ill health, etc.? >>

______________________

Or it's possible that it's not what she's eating. Dr. Cabot says family

history also plays a part in gall bladder disease. She also says that if

gallstones are recurrent in younger people, that it can be a sign of an

underlying blood disease.

So it may not be something that the child is eating per se.

Susie

[Guest guest]

Do you know what blood disease? There haven't been any other

occurances of gall bladder problems in our family histories, and I

hadn't even known anyone having a problem until she did, so this

group is the only real people I know who are dealing with it besides

her. >>

__________________

No, I'm sorry, I don't know what blood diseases. Dr. Cabot just has this in

her healthy liver & bowel book. But unless Dale knows, which he may

or may not, you can go to her website and write to them. Her website is at:

liverdoctor.com

I'm sure that someone there could answer you. I would definitely explain

your problem. what she eats and drinks, etc. BTW, Vitamin C and alcohol is

good for helping not form gallstones. I take larger doses of Vit. C, and I

drink wine at dinner. But I know 100 percent that drinking more water helps.

Before I got sick, I didn't drink much water. I don't know what your

daughter drinks, but tell her that water should always be her very main drink

and to sip on it all day. She needs between 8 and 12 glasses per day. I

would go on the high side of that. This is a proven! Water, water and more

water will help her. As a matter of fact, Agnes has talked about the water

cure website, and this could help your daughter.

Now, my daughter, who's also 19, eats lots of dairy and stuff. But she

rarely ever drinks a cold drink. drinks lots of apple juice and grape

juice and tries to drink more water. I think that's she's drinking less

water now since she has a new job.

Hope this helps!

Susie

[Guest guest]

I've read several places, including here, that dairy products cause

gall bladder problems. That's where I got that idea. If you need

links to that I'll try to find where I read it for you. And I've

already shown you several links to illustrate why I think that eating

animal products is dangerous to human health, so I'm at a loss to

figure out why you ask, except to think that you didn't read them.

No, my daughter doesn't drink alcohol. As I said, I think the

vaccination had alot to do with it, too.

I think you and Barry ought to take a couple of steps back and calm

down. Both of you are jumping to way too many conclusions in a very

defensive manner, and I assume many here are tiring of this debate

over illusionary conclusions that led all the way into the bible as a

defensive weapon. Do you think I'm satan or something just because I

want to find out the truth? I think everyone here is old enough to

judge the truth for themselves with enough information, and all I

want to do is bring up the information. I provide what I think is the

truth, and so do you..and we analyze it together and see what

works for our personal truth.

Take some deep breaths and don't get your digestion upset any more

than it already is...*smile*...and let me be a fool if that's how you

see me. I just want to know if vegans get gall bladder attacks. They

may..I don't doubt that..I just want to know after all this debate if

anyone here knows any...I realize it isn't a scientific sample..I'm

just trying to get testimonials from real folks instead of books.

There has to be people here that know some vegans, right? And we're

all here because of gall bladder concerns...so it's a very

appropriate question. OK?

> Why do you think that just because your daughter eats dairy

products, etc.

> that it might have to do with her gall bladder problems? Why do you

feel

> eating any animal products will lead to ill health, etc.? Maybe

your

> daughter just ate too many veggies, not to be funny in a serious

> situation..but you know....you need to quit trying to blame

everything on

> meat. Does your daughter drink alcohol? That could be a culprit

too. Could

> be alot more problems I've no idea about, but I doubt it's all the

animal

> products she consumes that's the core of her troubles. I hope she

is ok by

> the way.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Do you know what blood disease? There haven't been any other

occurances of gall bladder problems in our family histories, and I

hadn't even known anyone having a problem until she did, so this

group is the only real people I know who are dealing with it besides

her. So any info on the blood disease possibilities would be greatly

appreciated.

> Or it's possible that it's not what she's eating. Dr. Cabot says

family

> history also plays a part in gall bladder disease. She also says

that if

> gallstones are recurrent in younger people, that it can be a sign of

an

> underlying blood disease.

>

> So it may not be something that the child is eating per se.

>

> Susie

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

Just to let you know, I think Ross is going to love

your advice about the meat. He LOVES his big fat

pieces of steak!

Thank you for your letter and it is really so nice to

now that there is someone to share my thoughts with!

Ross also does not do a lot of excercise but I have

convinced him that we BOTH need to start in some way.

So we are going to start swimming. Wish us luck!

Speak to you very soon!

Kind Regards, Fiona.

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I don't eat alot of it... and what I eat is farm raised locally, not stamped organic but safe.

Suzi

MorningGlory113@... wrote:

If you are still having problems after all these years, and been eating meatThis got me curious about this topic. Does everyone on here eat meat? I see people talk about it every now and then. I've been a strict veggie (no meat, fish, chicken) for about 27 years. I stopped eating it for ethical reasons, not really health concerns. Any other veggies?Gloria

[Guest guest]

Gloria,

I was a strict vegetarian (no red meat, pork, chicken or seafoods,

but yes to eggs and dairy) for 3 years. I originally became " veggie "

because of health reasons (i am a biologist and a toxicologist and

KNOW what goes into my meat. I also read the book " The portrait of a

burger from a young calf " which is a FANTASTIC book) Eventually, the

more I learned, the more I desired to be veggie because of ethical,

moral and environmental concerns. (i.e. the energy it takes to create

one steak versus a field of grain etc).

Recently however, I've had to start eating fish because I just wasn't

getting enough protein in mys ystem. I was working out extremely hard

(3 hours a day) and trying to lose weight and I find by adding the

omegas and protein from fish, I am a healthier person. Though, I

still have trouble losing weight.

I'd like to go vegan...but, it's a huge effort that I just cannot

undertake at this time. AT least I recognize that! lol.

Love hearing from other veggie people.

Thanks for identifying yourself!

Anne

--- In health , MorningGlory113@a...

wrote:

>

>

> > If you are still having problems after all these years, and been

eating

> > meat

> >

> > This got me curious about this topic. Does everyone on here eat

meat? I see

> > people talk about it every now and then. I've been a strict

veggie (no meat,

> > fish, chicken) for about 27 years. I stopped eating it for

ethical reasons,

> > not really health concerns. Any other veggies?

> >

> > Gloria

[Guest guest]

I used to be a vegetarian but now I eat fish and some chicken. I go back and forth as to what I think about it; several docs I have been too (alternative docs) think I should be consuming more animal products. I don't feel bad after I eat fish or chicken like I do when I eat dairy, sugar or wheat.

Elliotteliz3378@...

----- Original Message -----

From: MorningGlory113@...

health

Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 8:48 AM

Subject: Re: Meat

If you are still having problems after all these years, and been eating meatThis got me curious about this topic. Does everyone on here eat meat? I see people talk about it every now and then. I've been a strict veggie (no meat, fish, chicken) for about 27 years. I stopped eating it for ethical reasons, not really health concerns. Any other veggies?Gloria

[Guest guest]

I'd like to go vegan...but, it's a huge effort that I just cannot

undertake at this time. AT least I recognize that! lol.

Hi Anne. I have been on and off vegan (mostly off). If I really had my act together cooking-wise I could probably do it. It's not that I miss dairy, it's just so convenient. Vegan means you don't eat cookies or muffins someone brought to work, no veggie burgers that have egg whites in them, etc. It was just too hard to keep it going. Because of my ethical thing with animals I have never cheated with meat/fish and have no desire to. Vegetarian Times once took a survey and found that vegetarians who did it for health reasons were much more likely to "cheat" than those who do it for ethical reasons. I stopped all meat and poultry about 27 years ago and all fish about 12 years ago. I must admit at one point I had trouble thinking eating a clam was unethical (do they really know or care???), but just figured I'd stop being so analytical and stop eating all of it.

Love hearing from other veggie people.

Me, too! I was curious about the vegetarian eating habits (or non), from the people on this list. Thanks!

Gloria

[Guest guest]

I don't feel bad after I eat fish or chicken like I do when I eat dairy, sugar or wheat.

I feel lousy after I eat sugar. I was on a macrobiotic diet (no dairy) for about 6 months once, and the first dairy I ate made me sick as a dog for days. That showed me that dairy is NOT good for my system. This weekend I visited some relatives and had one frozen Margarita. Ther next day I could barely get out of bed. I've had this reaction when ingesting just a little wine and other alcohol. I think it's somehow related to the sugar content. I honestly don't think I was meant to eat meat. Even as a kid I saved it for last and didn't eat it until after I ate everything else. I have very flat canine teeth (no points) and really think I was born a vegetarian.

Gloria

[Guest guest]

I'd really love it if you would/could share some tips on going

vegan. Substitutes for egg, dairy etc. I'd love for you to share

the knowledge. (even if offlist via email).

, when I was vegan, I really didn't use substitutes. I just eliminated any recipes that had dairy in it or made them without it. If I wanted to eat cake or cookies, I used the recipe out of a macrobiotic cookbook. Sometimes the stuff was dry but that's the way it was and I accepted it. I think I once substituted tofu for ricotta in lasagna, but I wasn't really into trying to vegan-ize dairy dishes. I prefered making Indian or Middle Eastern dishes that don't use dairy to begin with.

Gloria