Memory

[Guest guest]

No it doesn’t tell you where to train.

Mark

Re: Memory

In a message dated 4/25/02 6:49:59

PM Pacific Daylight Time, mrwaller@... writes:

Actually,

Lynn, it looks like I’ve created confusion. I have been talking about two

clients. One has memory issues from traumatic brain injury. The one with the

high frontal alpha has depression. That person has a frontal alpha imbalance as

shown on Pete’s new assessment spreadsheet, which means a tendency toward

depression. I am assuming that means there is too much left frontal alpha. I

think I see it in the numbers, but not sure how Pete calculates that.

I am

very encouraged by Pete’s latest effort. I would encourage the group to try it.

Mark

Thanks for that input Mark. Let me know what you try with the high

frontal alpha that is successful - I'll give it a whirl.

I haven't tried the assessment gig. I have trouble staying on task enough

to remember at the end of a sentence what I read in the beginning. I've

kinda given up trying on anything more than I have to to keep my head above

water at work. Guess I shouldn't just keep deleting everything of a

technical basis and give it a whirl someday. Does this new gig tell you

what to train once you take an assessment?

Thanks,

Lynn

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[Guest guest]

Mark,

I have not worked with a short term memory client but have done B

sessions for improved concentration/presence with adults. One thing I have

learned through experience is I usually get stronger results by choosing 1 or

2 placements and sticking to that. I also train B conditions with an adult

for 6mins or so and increase this 15sec or so per session. The client may

have 4 B conditions for atleast 6mins each. I make the sessions harder each

visit by increasing the time of each condition as well as making the

parameters more challenging. However, of course what works great for one

individual may do nothing for another.

I have found c3fz work to be very helpful in improving an alert state as

well as concentration...but have found that placement not as helpful for an

OCD individual. I'm curious how t3fz would work...does anyone do this? I

also never do B sessions without SMR to balance it out. This was something

Pete taught me a long time ago but he may have new suggestions at this point.

(Pete?)

I also give my clients homework assignments and in this case I would

probably create some sort of memory assignment for her. I tailor homework

assignments for each individual so I'm not thinking of anything specific

right now. I find that giving the client a task that takes the work outside

of the office setting is helpful.

I understand your frustration in wanting to see " results " but if she has

reported that she is more alert during a meeting, I would say that is a

definite " result " . There have been times I really haven't seen results up

until 12 sessions or so. Point out the positive things you are noticing.

Subtle changes are important to note and are helpful indicators that things

are moving in the appropriate direction. I have also learned that it is not

always easy for a client to see themselves and their changes the way that

others can see it.

I'm interested to hear other's guidance and I'd love to hear Pete's

comments. I always enjoy learning. I hope you are well,

[Guest guest]

Mark,

I think 's comments are pretty much on target.

Are we clear that memory is the real problem here? I can't recall if you've done some digit-span testing with her to assure that she truly has a short-term memory problem or whether her issue is more related to zoning in and out. If you see a lot of movement, I'd definitely look at 's suggestion of the SMR balancing. Remember that fidgeting is a sign of excessive beta (or can be) training.

What beta frequency are you using? What is the status of her alpha? Are the alpha/theta ratios low? How about her high alpha percentage? Those would be potential issues in anyone in this age group.

Finally, I'd ask her to broaden her net a little. Are the sleep improvements and improved attention in meetings still around? They are likely to lead to the improvements she seeks, if they are. A person this age is already dealing with short-term memory issues; she has also suffered an injury which doubtless impacted that further.

Pete

[Guest guest]

Frontal Hemispheres

T/B Resting:

In range

T/B Challenge:

High; check for eyeblink artifact;

(possible P)

A/T Resting:

In range

High Beta/Beta EC:

In range

Total Power EC:

In range

Beta Coherence:

In range

Left/Right Balance:

Hemispheres balanced

T/B Ratio Balance

Within range

Alpha Balance

Frontal alpha imbalance; vulnerable to depression;(possible P or

T)

Frontal Midline

High Beta/Beta EC:

Low levels of High Beta; suggests passivity; (possible P)

Total Fast Activity

Within range

Peak alpha frequency:

'Very slow alpha, suggests cognitive/sleep issues, (possible P)

SensoriMotor Cortex

Left/Right Balance:

Hemispheres balanced

T/B Resting:

Ratio low; suggest impulsivity/distractibility; (possible F)

T/B Challenge:

Ratio in range

A/T Resting:

A/T ratio low; suggests presence issues; (possible P or T)

Alpha blocking:

Poor alpha blocking; suggests fogginess; (possible P or F)

Alpha Challenge:

Alpha blocking within range

Occipital Cortex

T/B Ratio Eyes Open:

Low ratio, suggests racing thoughts, anxiety; (possible F or T)

T/B Ratio Activation:

Ratio fails to activate; suggests insomnia; (possible F or S)

A/T Ratio Activation:

Within range

A/T Ratio Eyes Closed:

Ratio in range

Peak Alpha Frequency

Alpha slow; suggests memory issues; (possible P)

Parietal Lobes

Left/Right Balance:

Hemispheres balanced

T/B Resting:

Ratio low, (possible F)

A/T Resting

Ratio low; suggests mood issues (possible F or T)

A/T Eyes Open

Ratio low; suggests mood issues (possible F or T)

Peak Alpha Frequency

Peak Frequency in range

Temporal Lobes

Left/Right Balance:

Hemispheres balanced

T/B Resting:

Ratio in range

T/B Challenge:

Ratio in range

% High

% Med

% Low

% No

Avg rate

Median

PROCESSING

5.13%

25.64%

15.38%

53.85%

1.78

SWITCHING

0.00%

10.00%

30.00%

60.00%

1.25

FILTERING

0.00%

2.33%

32.56%

65.12%

1.07

TONE

0.00%

0.00%

6.67%

93.33%

1.00

TOTAL

1.82%

10.91%

21.82%

65.45%

1.42

PARIETAL

20.00%

10.00%

0.00%

70.00%

2.67

FRONTAL

0.00%

15.00%

32.50%

52.50%

1.32

CENTRAL

0.00%

13.33%

26.67%

60.00%

1.33

TEMPORAL

0.00%

3.33%

10.00%

86.67%

1.25

TOTAL

1.82%

10.91%

21.82%

65.45%

1.42

SNS

PNS

0.46

0.83

Highest Rated Issues:

3

P4 Difficulty finding/recalling words

3

P10 Difficulty recalling strings of numbers

2

C14 Allergies and/or asthma

2

C2 Low energy level, chronic fatigue

2

C9 Difficulty waking up/getting up/not rested after sleep

2

C11 Wakes frequently during sleep

2

F13 Difficulty with recalling things in order

2

F14 Quickly forgets tasks or learned material

2

F16 Has trouble with tasks that require multiple steps

2

F18 Difficulty prioritizing time, organizing tasks

2

F19 Loses place when reading or reads and can't recall

2

F20 Difficulty expressing thoughts in words

2

P8 Difficulty attending to more than one object at a time

2

T30 Difficulty with short or long-term memory

1

C15 Doesn't feel physical pain/not aware of appetite

1

C19 Impatient with others

1

C20 Sees problems as caused by others

1

C23 Has/had Night sweats

1

C25 Sleeps restlessly/moves around in bed a lot

Pete and

:

Here are her values. The frequency I have

been using for Beta is 16.5 to 22.

I did try to have here to a memory test

when I did the assessment. She pretty much just laughed at me. Could you tell

me exactly how you do the span test.

Thanks for your help.

Mark

(Pete, I realize I may see you in Phoenix before you can respond to this.)

RE: Memory

Mark,

I think 's comments are pretty much on target.

Are we clear that memory is the real problem here? I can't

recall if you've done some digit-span testing with her to assure that she truly

has a short-term memory problem or whether her issue is more related to zoning

in and out. If you see a lot of movement, I'd definitely look at

's suggestion of the SMR balancing. Remember that fidgeting is a

sign of excessive beta (or can be) training.

What beta frequency are you using? What is the status of her

alpha? Are the alpha/theta ratios low? How about her high alpha

percentage? Those would be potential issues in anyone in this age group.

Finally, I'd ask her to broaden her net a little. Are the

sleep improvements and improved attention in meetings still around? They

are likely to lead to the improvements she seeks, if they are. A person

this age is already dealing with short-term memory issues; she has also suffered

an injury which doubtless impacted that further.

Pete

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[Guest guest]

Mark,

Here are her values. The frequency I have been using for Beta is 16.5 to 22. did try to have here to a memory test when I did the assessment. She pretty much just laughed at me. Could you tell me exactly how you do the span test.

Digit span involves you reading off a string of numbers and having her repeat them to you. Start with 5, then try 6, then 7 (as long as she is repeating accurately). When you are pretty comfortable what her span is consistently, start her off with 3 numbers and have her repeat them backwards. Then try 4, 5, etc. until you know what her limit is. If she is getting 6 or 7 forward and 5 or 6 backward, it's unlikely there's a short term memory problem. She has an attention issue.

Just a quick look at the assessment indicates that there's either already a lot of beta or not much theta, since her T/B ratios are consistently LOW, not high. And there are definitely some alpha issues that showed up as well.

Bring her sheets with you to Phoenix and we'll discuss her. Interesting case, because her assessment and issues checklist point in different directions.

Pete

[Guest guest]

Hey Sharon! Wonderful to hear from you. I already

feel right at home, and after so many odd

feelings in the last three months, getting into

this is a breath of fresh air. Don't for a minute

want to remember anything of what happened,

either on our trip or the hospital(s). What

little I have been told (and I don't ask) it was

a terrible situation. I hate it that has

to remember it. That amnesia can stay just the

way it is. As for the brain damage from the

anoxia, well, things are improving. I know the

difference now between a menopausal moment and

the event; they feel completely different. The

brain damage scared me more than the heart thing

ever did. I was afraid I would not be able to

read or carry on a conversation without making a

fool of myself. I did that pretty well to begin

with! Becca

--- IIPistacio@... wrote:

> Dear Becca, Welcome, come on in a sit yourself

> right down. I hate the not

> being able to remember part but maybe it is

> better that way. Maybe if we

> could remember how bad we were it would just

> hinder our thinking more. For

> me I need no more hindering. How is your

> memory now? I still have trouble

> spelling words or remembering certain things.

> I always prided myself on my

> memory

>

> Prom Planner

> Sharon

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hey Kathy, and everyone!

I have a question for Khalid and all of you about memory. (Kathy you may

know this one since you are a teacher?)

I agree with everyone -also Tanner's memory is amazing. I laughed

when I read Rhonda's about how Maddie's asked to find whatever is

missing and always knows where it is because we've already talked

about how Maddie and Tanner are the same way like that. Tanner will

go to bed at night and when I wake him up for school he'll open his

eyes and his first word is " Now? " ...first words out of his mouth!

So I'll say " Now what? " and he'll say " Member you said that

today... " It just makes us laugh!!

Tanner has for quite awhile known how to operate all kinds of

electronic equipment, he learned his numbers by using (hide your eyes

Vera) the remote control -I would say " Put on channel 34...no, put on

channel 76...etc. " and he's a wiz at GameBoy, Nintendo and

Playstation when we take them out of hiding here and there, and like

Khalid when we are driving in the car he points out directions and

buildings -he remembers like Khalid where things are on the road (not

reading the signs -just from memory) Actually other than " That's so

easy " and " Know what? " two of his most common statements - " Member

Mommy you promise " is the third one up there. And I do have to watch

what I promise him because he will remember!

My question is that then why doesn't he seem to remember letters like

that?!! He'll say the letters right one day -even read a word. And

then a few hours or a day later he says " I don't member Mommy "

This? From the child that remembers everything else?! At first I

didn't worry about it because I didn't work on letters with him much

because I wanted to let him be a kid too since he works on speech so

much. But like apraxia, I'm noticing an inconsistency with progress

in this one area that doesn't make sense. Did you ever experience

this with Khalid or is this some type of early warning sign? Should

I be working on a multi sensory approach with letters like I do with

speech for him? Does anyone else notice this? Kathy -did this come

up before?! (am I losing it I don't remember! haha)

=====

[Guest guest]

Hi Kathy-

It's wonderful to hear from you and to have you at the list again!

Thanks for sharing your twin's experiences with us! I love hearing

about them, especially, being that I am a twin also!

Thanks so much for the invitation- We would love the visit to the

East Coast again! To meet you and the parents of NJ, would be a

blessing for us too! We have already met so many wonderful families

with the Cherab Foundation , along with meeting our dearest of friends-

[Guest guest]

Remembering colors was what triggered me into thinking that something was

" wrong " with Nolan....at 3 he could not remember their names. We would eat

oranges, drink orange juice, draw with orange markers and crayons, wear

orange...you name it and then I would ask " What color is this? and I'd get

" Yellow. blue, red etc? " ...His nursery school teacher said " Kathy, no one

ever walked down the aisle not knowing their colors " ....so not until he was 4

did I have him evaled by the public school system and then they classified

him with receptive and expressive learning probs. He also had/ has the word

retrieval problem and can now get around it by describing things when he

forgets the word. His artic was really poor at 3 and now he still goes to

speech for " muscle based artic disorder " . No, not apraxia " they " say.....so

another label? After 1 year in pre-school hand. class he learned his colors

and after the end of the yr eval they declassified him....big mistake as in

Kind. he struggled and that's when I was concentrating on the twins and EI

and Speech so Nolan was pushed to the side....Here's a question....how can

our kids and even my students remember songs and not the alphabet and sounds?

Here's a short funny story that proves my point....We have Kind. graduation

where I teach so I taught them the " A is for Alligator " song by Carol King

.....really cute...and a song about leaving Kind that goes to the tune of the

" Family " ..remember snapping your fingers....anyway, I was being

observed by my principal and we were practicing that damn song for the

millionth time and I could not remember those words...here these kids had it

memorized so I made it look like I was not going to help them and we were

going to impress the principal without the teacher's help. Actually, the

teacher (me) could not remember......the whole memory thing is so puzzling as

I can do headstands in my class trying to get them to remember something and

other things they just " get " so easily.....I do think that a multisensory

approach is best and probably the most fun for the child and if an area of

the senses don't work than I think it either hinders the success or that the

other areas may compensate....In my son's case, (we just got back from the

Center and he will start AIT training and then Tomatis,hopefully) I

feel and always felt that his auditory skills are the reason why he does so

poorly in reading and even if I was still doing all of the multisensory stuff

all of the time that he still would need more......now that I rambled and got

off the subject--which is easy for me to do----I'll stop writing.....KATHY

[Guest guest]

Kathy,

This interest me. What is a " word retrieval problem " and also what

is " muscle based artic disorder " ? What you described in the

beginning is Frazier.

I did a little test with him last night. All the primary colors

where on a sheet of paper. You know like a big circle colored in

with the name under them. So I asked him to point to brown, he did.

I asked to point to black, he did. To point to orange, he did. To

blue, he did. To yellow, he pointed to brown----wrong. So I asked

again, pointed to black. Asked again-to orange. So then I got him

to look into my eyes and just told him. If this ball was orange and

this one brown and this one black, how can it be yellow. So then I

asked him to point to yellow again. And he did.

But you know, it seemed like for the first time I really noticed, he

was getting so flustered. Maybe it was the way I was doing it. I

don't know. He was able to go through the rest of the sheet. He had

problems with one more color. Sort of the same way. But I asked the

same sort of question and he answered it right. So now I have no

doubt in my mind he knows his colors. But WHAT'S THE DEAL?!

Thanks for letting me vent. And for information

Stella

[Guest guest]

Kathy,

I remember being younger and almost everything that I

learned I made up a song for. Learning all the

continents, I have a song for that... The capitals of

each state I learned by song. Amazing but lots of

people learn that way and I know that Jack will learn

lots of things through song, luckily I have a whole

list of songs for him when the time comes LOL!!!!!

A question for you and anyone else that can answer it,

is are receptive and auditory the same thing.

When my son Jack who just turned 3 at the end of may,

was evaluated in Feb of this year they said he may

have auditory issues, but for example just yesterday I

taught him 9 shapes and he learned them in 5 minutes,

wouldn't that make him have exceptional receptive or

is it auditory, yikes I already don't know!!! If you

or someone can clear this up I would appreciate it.

Also Kathy, as a child I stuttered until about the age

of 7 when it just went away, the thing with it was I

stuttered when I spoke but Never when I sang, and I

know that is true for most that stutter!!! Go figure.

Sincerely,

Eileen

--- Altoonakenton@... wrote:

> Remembering colors was what triggered me into

> thinking that something was

> " wrong " with Nolan....at 3 he could not remember

> their names. We would eat

> oranges, drink orange juice, draw with orange

> markers and crayons, wear

> orange...you name it and then I would ask " What

> color is this? and I'd get

> " Yellow. blue, red etc? " ...His nursery school

> teacher said " Kathy, no one

> ever walked down the aisle not knowing their

> colors " ....so not until he was 4

> did I have him evaled by the public school system

> and then they classified

> him with receptive and expressive learning probs.

> He also had/ has the word

> retrieval problem and can now get around it by

> describing things when he

> forgets the word. His artic was really poor at 3

> and now he still goes to

> speech for " muscle based artic disorder " . No, not

> apraxia " they " say.....so

> another label? After 1 year in pre-school hand.

> class he learned his colors

> and after the end of the yr eval they declassified

> him....big mistake as in

> Kind. he struggled and that's when I was

> concentrating on the twins and EI

> and Speech so Nolan was pushed to the side....Here's

> a question....how can

> our kids and even my students remember songs and not

> the alphabet and sounds?

> Here's a short funny story that proves my

> point....We have Kind. graduation

> where I teach so I taught them the " A is for

> Alligator " song by Carol King

> ....really cute...and a song about leaving Kind that

> goes to the tune of the

> " Family " ..remember snapping your

> fingers....anyway, I was being

> observed by my principal and we were practicing that

> damn song for the

> millionth time and I could not remember those

> words...here these kids had it

> memorized so I made it look like I was not going to

> help them and we were

> going to impress the principal without the teacher's

> help. Actually, the

> teacher (me) could not remember......the whole

> memory thing is so puzzling as

> I can do headstands in my class trying to get them

> to remember something and

> other things they just " get " so easily.....I do

> think that a multisensory

> approach is best and probably the most fun for the

> child and if an area of

> the senses don't work than I think it either hinders

> the success or that the

> other areas may compensate....In my son's case, (we

> just got back from the

> Center and he will start AIT training and then

> Tomatis,hopefully) I

> feel and always felt that his auditory skills are

> the reason why he does so

> poorly in reading and even if I was still doing all

> of the multisensory stuff

> all of the time that he still would need

> more......now that I rambled and got

> off the subject--which is easy for me to do----I'll

> stop writing.....KATHY

[Guest guest]

Hi Eileen, Kathy and all,

I agree singing is a great way to help teach. Wee Sing has this one

tape where they sing " My name is _____ this is where I live... " sung

to the tune of one of the old nursery rhymes. It sings the phone

number and address. That's how I taught both my boys, and if someone

asked them for their phone number and they forgot I would hum the

song and they would say " Oh! " Even now that Dakota is older I taught

him to remember hard spelling words by making a funny story or rhyme up about

the word-

so he laughs and aces spelling, something he now does by himself. I

think the trick is in making it fun.

Kathy, a great way we taught Tanner his colors is the " I spy " game -

we play almost every night at dinner now. You know the game where

you say " I spy with my little eye, something...green! " (or orange, or

white, or blue, etc.) When we first started playing about a year or

two ago Tanner would say " I-sigh... bue " then it went to " I spy

widdel-eye blue " and now at six it's " I spy my little eye somethin

blue " (does is sound like I'm more excited about the colors or the

speech or what?!)

Anyway -of course this game has a number of strong points to it in

addition to teaching colors, it teaches Tanner to say names of things

instead of just pointing, it teaches him to learn the names of things

that other people guess, it teaches not only the color he wants but

the wrong colors too if they are guessed. " No that's not blue that's

green " We have the eye spy books, and game -but my kids love this

game and you can do it anywhere, and they have no idea they are

learning! (which ties into one of the signs of good and bad therapy

for preschool and young children that Suzi just brought up!)

=====

[Guest guest]

Pete:

This is a thread that

was started some time ago. This woman as you recall came to me for memory/fogginess

issues. I did the assessment and e-mailed it to you. We even talked about her

in Phoenix. She had called me back in early June claiming that she was dissatisfied

with the training etc. I had been doing a lot of left side beta training trying

to see if I could get any results at all. She did about ten sessions. I was

working mostly around f3. The feedback was minimal.

Now she calls me and tells me that after

the last session in June, she felt a bit of a buzz. Then she got very depressed

and spent 3 days in bed. Then she went on Wellbutrin

for a month with no results.

She wants my take on all of this. What is

your take? She reported no such effects for more than 5 weeks – now this.

Hug?

Help

Mark

RE: Memory

Mark,

Here are her values. The

frequency I have been using for Beta is 16.5 to 22. did try to have here

to a memory test when I did the assessment. She pretty much just laughed at me.

Could you tell me exactly how you do the span test.

Digit span involves you reading off a

string of numbers and having her repeat them to you. Start with 5, then

try 6, then 7 (as long as she is repeating accurately). When you are

pretty comfortable what her span is consistently, start her off with 3

numbers and have her repeat them backwards. Then try 4, 5, etc. until you

know what her limit is. If she is getting 6 or 7 forward and 5 or 6

backward, it's unlikely there's a short term memory problem. She has an

attention issue.

Just a quick look at the assessment

indicates that there's either already a lot of beta or not much theta, since

her T/B ratios are consistently LOW, not high. And there are definitely

some alpha issues that showed up as well.

Bring her sheets with you to Phoenix and we'll discuss her.

Interesting case, because her assessment and issues checklist point in

different directions.

Pete

[Guest guest]

Pete:

Let me add a little to my last e-mail. I have had reports before from clients who got sleepy after Beta training. I have never had a report from someone who had SMR training. I did have another woman who got very depressed after only one session of beta training. None of these people are left handers. Maybe I am dyslexic. Can you help me account for this?

Mark

-----Original Message-----From: Van Deusen [mailto:pvdadp@...] Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 10:37 AM Subject: RE: Memory

Mark,

Here are her values. The frequency I have been using for Beta is 16.5 to 22. did try to have here to a memory test when I did the assessment. She pretty much just laughed at me. Could you tell me exactly how you do the span test.

Digit span involves you reading off a string of numbers and having her repeat them to you. Start with 5, then try 6, then 7 (as long as she is repeating accurately). When you are pretty comfortable what her span is consistently, start her off with 3 numbers and have her repeat them backwards. Then try 4, 5, etc. until you know what her limit is. If she is getting 6 or 7 forward and 5 or 6 backward, it's unlikely there's a short term memory problem. She has an attention issue.

Just a quick look at the assessment indicates that there's either already a lot of beta or not much theta, since her T/B ratios are consistently LOW, not high. And there are definitely some alpha issues that showed up as well.

Bring her sheets with you to Phoenix and we'll discuss her. Interesting case, because her assessment and issues checklist point in different directions.

Pete

[Guest guest]

Mark,

Did this client, in her Issues Checklist, mention anything about mood issues like depression, or is this sudden attack of depression a brand new experience for her? Had she ever been on Welbutrin or any other anti-depressants prior to training with you? When you say the "feedback was minimal" do you mean that she didn't report much or that she was getting minimal rewards?

I don't recall much detail about this case, but here are the things I would think of:

1. When I see an adult, especially mid-40's and beyond, with "fogginess" and "memory" issues, I would look at levels of frontal alpha and look at alpha frequency distribution. If the alpha levels in the front are relatively high--as high or higher than theta levels--then I would train them down. If the slow alpha to fast alpha ratio is high, indicating a generalized slowing, then I would train up, say, 10-15 Hz and train down 3-5 and 8-10 Hz. I really don't like training beta up, especially frontally, since there is not usually a shortage of beta--just an excess of slower activity.

2. My take would be that if you had been training to reduce depression, you might have used exactly the protocol you did. Therefore I don't see any likelihood that what you did with her was related to her depression. The "buzz" may have lifted her fog a bit and she might then have become more aware of depressive feelings, but that's pure speculation. Its also possible that she--and the other client who experienced depression following a beta session--where dealing with low levels of alpha activation rather than low levels of beta.

The fact that she took Welbutrin without effect would strongly suggest that you would want to work with her on alpha rather than beta. Welbutrin seeks to increase levels of dopamine and norepinephrine in the brain, more or less the effect you might expect with beta training. Prozac and other anti-depressants increases effective levels of serotonin, as does alpha training.

I'm increasingly focusing on reducing slow-wave activity and pretty much ignoring the fast and finding it a "gentler" approach. I would look for alpha levels and Alpha/Theta ratios in the front and back. If alpha is low in the back (alpha/theta ratio is below 1.5 with eyes closed), then I'd include some parietal alpha uptraining with a theta inhibit. If alpha is higher than theta in the front, then I'd include some alpha downtraining and not reward anything. If theta/beta ratios are high, I'd focus on general reduction of theta without worrying about a reward band.

I'm interested in reactions and experiences of any of the other members of this list in this question. How many of you have had experience working just on inhibits without rewarding faster speeds? What kinds of reactions have you had?

Pete

-----Original Message-----From: Mark Waller [mailto:mrwaller@...]Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 12:13 AM Subject: RE: Memory

Pete:

This is a thread that was started some time ago. This woman as you recall came to me for memory/fogginess issues. I did the assessment and e-mailed it to you. We even talked about her in Phoenix. She had called me back in early June claiming that she was dissatisfied with the training etc. I had been doing a lot of left side beta training trying to see if I could get any results at all. She did about ten sessions. I was working mostly around f3. The feedback was minimal.

Now she calls me and tells me that after the last session in June, she felt a bit of a buzz. Then she got very depressed and spent 3 days in bed. Then she went on Wellbutrin for a month with no results.

She wants my take on all of this. What is your take? She reported no such effects for more than 5 weeks – now this. Hug?

Let me add a little to my last e-mail. I have had reports before from clients who got sleepy after Beta training. I have never had a report from someone who had SMR training. I did have another woman who got very depressed after only one session of beta training. None of these people are left handers. Maybe I am dyslexic. Can you help me account for this?

Help

Mark

[Guest guest]

Pete,

I have done a fair amount of training doing strictly inhibits with

the squash scripts in BMScope, as well as alpha inhibit and theta

inhibits up front. After the Chicago training I ran some assessments

on kids I had been working with and found that several of the

" drifty/foggy " kids had high alpha as the only thing that really

showed up. I did frontal alpha supression and the kids and parents

reported rather immediate effects on focus and clarity.

I have also done a " windowed " squash at t3 t43 with three people with

tone issues, along with teaching the breathing. All three have

reported better sleep and less subjective tension. One reported

still feeling anxious but the episodes were much shorter and she was

able to more successfully direct her thoughts to other areas and away

from the anxiety.

I have had the same experience with all three of the women with tone

issues. All three had tone indicated on the eeg assessment but not

on the subjective assessment. After seeing the tone issues I

interviewed them further and discovered that there were indeed tone

issues but they had downplayed them on the subjective assessment.

All three indicated that the problems were so long standing that they

had accomodated to them to a large extent and were likely to see them

as " normal life issues " not as pressing concerns. Hsa anyone else

had that experience?

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[Guest guest]

Pete:

As you can see from the assessment, she

had frontal Alpha imbalance. Depression is definitely new and no history of

SSRIs or anything else for depression.

How about just a frontal

squash protocol?

Mark

RE: Memory

Pete:

This is a thread that was

started some time ago. This woman as you recall came to me for memory/fogginess

issues. I did the assessment and e-mailed it to you. We even talked about her

in Phoenix. She had called me back in early June claiming that she was

dissatisfied with the training etc. I had been doing a lot of left side beta

training trying to see if I could get any results at all. She did about ten

sessions. I was working mostly around f3. The feedback was minimal.

Now she calls me and

tells me that after the last session in June, she felt a bit of a buzz. Then

she got very depressed and spent 3 days in bed. Then she went on Wellbutrin for

a month with no results.

She wants my take on all

of this. What is your take? She reported no such effects for more than 5 weeks

– now this. Hug?

Let me add a little to my

last e-mail. I have had reports before from clients who got sleepy after Beta

training. I have never had a report from someone who had SMR training. I did

have another woman who got very depressed after only one session of beta

training. None of these people are left handers. Maybe I am dyslexic. Can you

help me account for this?

Help

Mark

[Guest guest]

:

When you do squash, would you go to Fp1/2

or F3 F4? And how do you make the distinction? Also, wouldn’t it be easier to do squash then to try

and figure out whether to go after Alpha or theta? It’s

starting to look like to me that squash ought to replace beta training in many

cases. Your thoughts would be most interesting.

Mark

RE: Memory

Pete,

I have done a fair amount of training doing

strictly inhibits with

the squash scripts in BMScope, as well as alpha

inhibit and theta

inhibits up front. After the Chicago

training I ran some assessments

on kids I had been working with and found that

several of the

" drifty/foggy " kids had high alpha as

the only thing that really

showed up. I did frontal alpha supression

and the kids and parents

reported rather immediate effects on focus and

clarity.

I have also done a " windowed " squash at

t3 t43 with three people with

tone issues, along with teaching the

breathing. All three have

reported better sleep and less subjective

tension. One reported

still feeling anxious but the episodes were much

shorter and she was

able to more successfully direct her thoughts to

other areas and away

from the anxiety.

I have had the same experience with all three of

the women with tone

issues. All three had tone indicated on the

eeg assessment but not

on the subjective assessment. After seeing

the tone issues I

interviewed them further and discovered that there

were indeed tone

issues but they had downplayed them on the

subjective assessment.

All three indicated that the problems were so long

standing that they

had accomodated to them to a large extent and were

likely to see them

as " normal life issues " not as pressing

concerns. Hsa anyone else

had that experience?

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[Guest guest]

Mark

Most recently I have used Pete's assessment protocol to determine

placements. Prior to that I trained mostly at f3 f4. That

was a something I came to over time seeing best results training

there. I also did a lot of work with juvenile felons and all of

them got trained at f3 f4 c3 c4. ( as an aside I

will be giving a presentation at SNR on that work with the kids, I

would gladly share the results with anyone on the list who is

interestred.)

I have doen theta only or alpha only when indicated by

Pete's assesment or on the several kids who had Q's done prior

to seeing me. I really believe in being as flexible as possible

and do a fair amount of poking around with clients to see what works

best. I try hard to avoid " hardening of the

catagories "

I do believe that a squash is a very efficient way to get at

bands with high amplitudes and to reduce variability in those bands.

I tend to use it most often when I see large recurrent excursions in

mutiple bands, and I use it a great deal of the time with the ROSHI.

when I do a squash I " window " it to leave the frequencies

from 6-8hz, 12-18hz and 21 hz out of the squash. I do very

little straight beta training in my practice but have used the

squash on the left side as well as beta/theta ratio. with the

ratio it usually looks on teh brain mirror like the major change is

reduction of theta rather than an increase in Beta. I think that

the windowed squash accomplishes much the same thing. Bob Gurnee

has reported that very few of the people he does Q's on have beta

training indicated. Val Brown has recently said he is putting less and

less emphasis on the 12-15hz and 15-20hz augments in his Period Three

approach.

The only few times someone has complained about feeling

" off " during or after training is when I have been doing

beta training.

I use the squash (windowed) in three different ways.

Bipolar between mirror sites ( mostly f3 f4 and t3 t4) single

channel referential eg c4 a2 and two channel c4 a2

c3 a1. When done two channel the script sums the amplitudes of

both channels and rewards a decrease in the total activity. I

will occasionally use midi sounds quietly in the background to reward

c4 12-15 and c3 15-18 with the two channel squash. when

used in a bipolar montage the reduction can be acheived by one of the

hemispheres reducing amplitude, both hemispheres reducing amplitude,

(as a result of the differential amplification in the BMr) by the

hemispheres moving more out of phase. when they move out of

phase the signals begin to cancel each other resulting in a smaller

measured amplitude. I like the bipolar and two channel setups

with squash because each of them allows the brain several ways to

acheive the desired result. I do believe that our brains have a

large degree of self correction built in and the more flexible the

approach the more likely we are to find a smooth and efficient way

toward balance and health.

I feel like I have run on a bit here. If you have any

reactions or ideas I would love to hear them.

:

When you do squash, would you go to Fp1/2 or F3 F4?

And how do you make the distinction? Also, wouldn't it be easier to

do squash then to try and figure out whether to go after Alpha or

theta? It's starting to look like to me that squash ought to replace

beta training in many cases. Your thoughts would be most

interesting.

Mark

-----Original

Message-----

From: [mailto:gmartin@...]

Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 5:36 PM

Cc: Van Deusen

Subject: RE: Memory

Pete,

I have done a fair amount of training doing strictly inhibits with

the squash scripts in BMScope, as well as alpha inhibit and theta

inhibits up front. After the Chicago training I ran some

assessments

on kids I had been working with and found that several of the

" drifty/foggy " kids had high alpha as the only thing that

really

showed

up. I did frontal alpha supression and the kids and parents

reported rather immediate effects on focus and clarity.

I have also done a " windowed " squash at t3 t43 with three

people with

tone issues, along with teaching the breathing. All three

have

reported better sleep and less subjective tension. One

reported

still feeling anxious but the episodes were much shorter and she

was

able to more successfully direct her thoughts to other areas and

away

from the anxiety.

I have had the same experience with all three of the women with

tone

issues. All three had tone indicated on the eeg assessment but

not

on the subjective assessment. After seeing the tone issues I

interviewed them further and discovered that there were indeed

tone

issues but they had downplayed them on the subjective assessment.

All three indicated that the problems were so long standing that

they

had accomodated to them to a large extent and were likely to see

them

as " normal life issues " not as pressing concerns. Hsa

anyone else

had that experience?

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[Guest guest]

Mark,

Review of the assessment shows a lot of F's. She has VERY low theta/beta ratios with eyes closed, and she does show slow alpha and low alpha relative to theta.

You could try a squash, but I'd also, as I suggested in my previous e-mail, try some eyes-closed alpha training at P3/A1 to see how she responds to that.

Pete

-----Original Message-----From: Mark Waller [mailto:mrwaller@...]Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 9:47 PM Subject: RE: Memory

Pete:

As you can see from the assessment, she had frontal Alpha imbalance. Depression is definitely new and no history of SSRIs or anything else for depression.

How about just a frontal squash protocol?

Mark

[Guest guest]

,

I have had the same experience with all three of the women with tone issues. All three had tone indicated on the eeg assessment but not on the subjective assessment. After seeing the tone issues I interviewed them further and discovered that there were indeed tone issues but they had downplayed them on the subjective assessment. All three indicated that the problems were so long standing that they had accomodated to them to a large extent and were likely to see them as "normal life issues" not as pressing concerns. Hsa anyone else had that experience?

Tone issues, in my view of them, often represent the brain's way of "hiding" underlying problems from the client. Your finding of poor awareness of these issues is pretty common in my experience. It is not that the client is "lying", but that he/she is being "lied" TO by their own experience. That's one of the benefits of getting second sets of the Issues Checklist from a significant other, and to the SNS/PNS scale and to the objective assessment.

Excellent point.

Pete

[Guest guest]

I've never done that but I have been know to load the bread machine

without putting the kneading paddle in first then watching the flour

sit there unmoving and wondering why!

> Speaking of memory, one of my chores is to do the weekly wash. One

> Monday morning I was getting impatient because I wasn't make much

> headway with finishing the wash. I wanted to go out. So when the

> last load of wash was done, I opened the lid and found nothing

> inside. I was dumbfounded. Then I looked at the pile of clothing

on

> the floor. It never made it to the wash machine in the first

place.

> Ugh!

>

> Tom in PA

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: " rumpleteasermom "

> I have been know to load the bread machine

> without putting the kneading paddle in first

> then watching the flour sit there unmoving

> and wondering why.

I too was known to load the bred machine (First wife, three kids in 25

months), but she never needed a paddle (Not that I would have had the . . .

courage to try). But only now at 60 do I sit there looking at the flower

(of my youth) there unmoving. I, of course, know why.

Best.

Bil

[Guest guest]

hey tom,,,,

dont know if i can top that but heres what i did last week,,,,,got

up,,,,showered dressed, drove 25 miles to walmart....filled up a cart and

got all checked out when i realized my money and credit cards were 25 miles

away on my dresser....

so much for that day/.....

bob in pa

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/23/02 5:39:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gmartin@... writes:

Pete,

I have done a fair amount of training doing strictly inhibits with

the squash scripts in BMScope, as well as alpha inhibit and theta

inhibits up front. After the Chicago training I ran some assessments

on kids I had been working with and found that several of the

"drifty/foggy" kids had high alpha as the only thing that really

showed up. I did frontal alpha supression and the kids and parents

reported rather immediate effects on focus and clarity......All three indicated that the problems were so long standing that they

had accomodated to them to a large extent and were likely to see them

as "normal life issues" not as pressing concerns. Hsa anyone else

had that experience?

,

Thanks for that info.... I have high frontal alpha. I've tried inhibiting it, but usually 2-10 or 2-12hz cause my theta's high too.... I've also tried more of the 8-12 inhibit, but usually when trying to control other freq's too.

Also, lately I've given up on inhibiting anything thinking that perhaps I'd have more success if I just worked on strengthening the frequencies that I wanted to increase, and that the stronger they became, the more they would counteract the other high freq's (kinda like they say if you have a bad back, increase your stomache muscles to provide greater support for your back...)

Anywho, I'll give it a shot at inhibiting the 10hz-ish range and focusing only on that, to see if that provides some bennies... I'll keep you posted.... So, what did you have success with: specific frequencies and training locations?

Lynn