Re: Re: Fwd: Welcome newest members

[Guest guest]

Welcome Debi,

And thanks for signing your post with your name. I'll splice a bit here.

Your writing in blue and mine in black.

> I communicated with my doctor who told me I would adjust when I had

receptors.

Oh dear....this stuff about building receptors... it's the WP mumbo jumbo

incantations. There is a principle in science called Occam's Razor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor " principle that generally

recommends selecting from among competing hypotheses the one that makes the

fewest new assumptions. "

Science would say that if a person is on a supralogical (super duper high

dosing) then the first thing to look at would be the dosing NOT to invent

stories about provoking receptors. In the case of the WP, it's simply mumbo

jumbo.

> I am also beginning to pick up vibes at my doctor's office that if I am not

responding as I " should " then I am a problem patient.

Ding ding ding....

Your sense of this sounds very good. VERY! It's just a normal human response

to drinking kool-aid. Once humans have picked something to love, have a dream,

whatever, motivated reasoning kicks in. And there's lots of dream in the WP.

But, the onus of proof and the attention to ethics is on the WP promoters, NOT

anyone who is suffering, but that is the perspective of science, not of those

who are drinking the Kool-Aid. Once you are not doing well, then all WP

believers are set to push you down, for example, " you stay up too late " .

Explaining away difficulty by blaming the victim is common in any snake oil

routine. There really is no other way for them to behave because there is no

science to support the dream and they don't pass muster with bioethics. The

victim is the soft spot to get relief from the cognitive dissonance.

Your closing paragraph is great. You show the kind of grit I believe is

necessary to get through the detox and to find your way to a healthful approach

to HRT should you choose to continue. No one here is legally or ethically

qualified to tell you what to do to get off or change your approach, but what I

hope RL offers women is support for the horrible impact of the kool-aid pressure

routines which really are awful.

Hang in there, with your persistence you'll find your way. Thank you for

sharing your story.

Laurel

> Hi, my name is Debi. I am a new member. I am 55 yo and have been on WP for 4

months now. I was not new to BHRT, having started static dosing at age 50 with

good results, but when I moved to a new area and went to a new doctor who

recommended The WP, I agreed without doing much research...just thinking that it

would be similar to what I took successfully for several years. Let me add that

for the year prior to starting WP I had stopped all hormones thinking that I

would just be a " natural woman " and grow old gracefully (LOL). However, the

misery of the HF, lack of sleep, painful sex and brain fog that interfered with

me doing my job forced me to change my mind. Now I am, honestly, freaked

out...well as much as a badly depressed person can be freaked out - depression

that I have never had before in my life BTW.

>

> Here is my experience of the WP so far: For the first two weeks of the

protocol, I felt better. I think that my body got some much-starved for

estrogen. The hot flashes stopped and I was able to sleep thru the night. But

when I started P, that's when things started downhill: back pain, muscle/joint

aches, anger, cramps, mood swings, fatigue, and there was not enough sugar or

carbs in my house to satisfy me. I communicated with my doctor who told me I

would adjust when I had receptors. By the third month, when I hadn't adjusted

well, he increased my E by 2 lines per day. I always followed the

protocol/doctor directions faithfully. I had my blood tests. During the 2nd and

3rd months, I did slightly better during the E phase, but now, in the fourth

month, I am not bouncing back. I stay so tired that doing even routine things is

a major chore. I wonder if this is what chronic fatigue feels like. As I said

before, I am depressed. I can't feel joy even though I have a good life. I am

definitely not myself. Other side effects have started, too. I have excess hair

on my face. I have break outs on my face that I never had before. I have

increased nasal congestion. I am gaining weight. Prior to these last few months,

I have always been an energetic, positive person. So the bottom line is that

while my doctor and I agreed that we would " partner " in my goal for health,

balance and increased wellbeing, I currently feel much worse than I did when I

started this treatment. I am also beginning to pick up vibes at my doctor's

office that if I am not responding as I " should " then I am a problem patient.

(Could be in my mind, though.) However, I am paying him well, so I need to

muster up the energy and assertiveness to insist that we discuss alternative

treatments. I am not sure how that will go over since he seems to be a great

advocate of the WP (my perception). He never mentioned any alternatives to this.

>

> Today I am trying to decide what to do - either stop all hormones or keep

using a small dose of E until I can get in to the doc. What I am certain of is

that I do not want to continue with the WP. Four months of feeling ill is long

enough. And my freak out, that I mentioned earlier is that, after doing some

research I am afraid the the WP is the gift that keeps on giving (in the worst

way). I could whine and say that I was not fully informed of the SE, and that is

certainly true, however, I know that I have ultimate responsibility for my

health and should have done my research in advance.

>

> So this is my experience with the WP. I appreciate the opportunity to vent.

>

> Debi

>

>

>>

>> This came to me personally, not the group, so I'm forwarding it on. BTW, to

send to the group, simply hit reply on most notes. The addy for the group is

rhythmicliving

>>

>> Laurel

>>

>> Begin forwarded message:

>>

>>>

>>> Date: October 7, 2011 8:09:48 AM PDT

>>> To: " laurel@... "

>>> Subject: Re: Welcome newest members

>>> Reply-To: q Vest

>>>

>>> Hello Lauel

>>>

>>> I too have started the WP 3 months now.

>>>

>>> was wonder what your sympton are?

>>>

>>> thanks

>>> renee

>>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/

>

> **The group conversation is informational in nature and is not intended as

medical advice.**

[Guest guest]

Laurel,

I generally find this board helpful(i.e. finding a Dr, what works for others etc.), however, there are protocols that use "individual dosing" that, obviously are dosed to the person as everyone is different. "I" personally feel the problems caused by WP are from the pregnancy-induced doses of P. Anyone that had/has problems are usually suffering from too much P. There are 2 health problems with this..eclampsia(High blood pressure), and gestational diabetes. These 2 conditions only happen during pregnancy for women. For ME, I need high doses of E..and yes, receptors DO need to "work' for the body to utilize ANY hormone..even Thyroid. It is a balance that is ever-changing..always has been that way..the body TRIES to correct this itself. That is why when a woman is getting HF, it raises the FSH to

pop out an egg, but there aren't any left. Once enough E is picked up, then, FSH goes down to pre-menopausal levels, and the woman "feels better"(FSH affects the temperature control in our brains via the pituitary. The puzzle is what will the woman's body need..and THAT is the piece of the puzzle that needs to be figured out for THAT woman. To find a provider that will help that woman is why so many of us suffer..as MANY well-meaning Dr's are trying to help. Remember, Drs are taught how to "treat" pts via "drugs". When they have a Pt where the WP is giving them problems, they don't know how to help THAT woman as what "new" drug can they give her?? Funny that when a man has a problem, they are all over finding THEM help..us women are just "problem Pts", give them Prozac, or Zoloft. Makes me mad as h*ll! I understand that you obviously HATE the WP..but, it does work for a lot of women,

AND men..if they are followed well, they can find what does work for them, and do that safely. They only can get a patent on their "delivery system'..the syringes, "lines", etc..real hormones cannot be patented. Again, I do not consider myself on WP..but I was..and now I've found a protocol that works for me. My OWN dosing for MY body. Can we just stop the WP bashing? I could scare everyone when they talk about their own Drs "protocols"..but I don't.

Terri

To: rhythmicliving Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 1:22 PMSubject: Re: Re: Fwd: Welcome newest members

Welcome Debi, And thanks for signing your post with your name. I'll splice a bit here. Your writing in blue and mine in black.> I communicated with my doctor who told me I would adjust when I had receptors.Oh dear....this stuff about building receptors... it's the WP mumbo jumbo incantations. There is a principle in science called Occam's Razor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor "principle that generally recommends selecting from among competing hypotheses the one that makes the fewest new assumptions." Science would say that if a person is on a supralogical (super duper high dosing) then the first thing to look at would be the dosing NOT to invent stories about provoking receptors. In the case of the WP, it's simply mumbo jumbo. > I am also beginning to pick up vibes at my doctor's office that if I am not responding as I "should" then I am a problem patient. Ding ding ding....Your

sense of this sounds very good. VERY! It's just a normal human response to drinking kool-aid. Once humans have picked something to love, have a dream, whatever, motivated reasoning kicks in. And there's lots of dream in the WP. But, the onus of proof and the attention to ethics is on the WP promoters, NOT anyone who is suffering, but that is the perspective of science, not of those who are drinking the Kool-Aid. Once you are not doing well, then all WP believers are set to push you down, for example, "you stay up too late". Explaining away difficulty by blaming the victim is common in any snake oil routine. There really is no other way for them to behave because there is no science to support the dream and they don't pass muster with bioethics. The victim is the soft spot to get relief from the cognitive dissonance. Your closing paragraph is great. You show the kind of grit I believe is necessary to get through the detox and to find your way to

a healthful approach to HRT should you choose to continue. No one here is legally or ethically qualified to tell you what to do to get off or change your approach, but what I hope RL offers women is support for the horrible impact of the kool-aid pressure routines which really are awful. Hang in there, with your persistence you'll find your way. Thank you for sharing your story.Laurel> Hi, my name is Debi. I am a new member. I am 55 yo and have been on WP for 4 months now. I was not new to BHRT, having started static dosing at age 50 with good results, but when I moved to a new area and went to a new doctor who recommended The WP, I agreed without doing much research...just thinking that it would be similar to what I took successfully for several years. Let me add that for the year prior to starting WP I had stopped all hormones thinking that I would just be a "natural woman"

and grow old gracefully (LOL). However, the misery of the HF, lack of sleep, painful sex and brain fog that interfered with me doing my job forced me to change my mind. Now I am, honestly, freaked out...well as much as a badly depressed person can be freaked out - depression that I have never had before in my life BTW. > > Here is my experience of the WP so far: For the first two weeks of the protocol, I felt better. I think that my body got some much-starved for estrogen. The hot flashes stopped and I was able to sleep thru the night. But when I started P, that's when things started downhill: back pain, muscle/joint aches, anger, cramps, mood swings, fatigue, and there was not enough sugar or carbs in my house to satisfy me. I communicated with my doctor who told me I would adjust when I had receptors. By the third month, when I hadn't adjusted well, he increased my E by 2 lines per day. I always followed the protocol/doctor directions

faithfully. I had my blood tests. During the 2nd and 3rd months, I did slightly better during the E phase, but now, in the fourth month, I am not bouncing back. I stay so tired that doing even routine things is a major chore. I wonder if this is what chronic fatigue feels like. As I said before, I am depressed. I can't feel joy even though I have a good life. I am definitely not myself. Other side effects have started, too. I have excess hair on my face. I have break outs on my face that I never had before. I have increased nasal congestion. I am gaining weight. Prior to these last few months, I have always been an energetic, positive person. So the bottom line is that while my doctor and I agreed that we would "partner" in my goal for health, balance and increased wellbeing, I currently feel much worse than I did when I started this treatment. I am also beginning to pick up vibes at my doctor's office that if I am not responding as I "should" then I am

a problem patient. (Could be in my mind, though.) However, I am paying him well, so I need to muster up the energy and assertiveness to insist that we discuss alternative treatments. I am not sure how that will go over since he seems to be a great advocate of the WP (my perception). He never mentioned any alternatives to this.> > Today I am trying to decide what to do - either stop all hormones or keep using a small dose of E until I can get in to the doc. What I am certain of is that I do not want to continue with the WP. Four months of feeling ill is long enough. And my freak out, that I mentioned earlier is that, after doing some research I am afraid the the WP is the gift that keeps on giving (in the worst way). I could whine and say that I was not fully informed of the SE, and that is certainly true, however, I know that I have ultimate responsibility for my health and should have done my research in advance.> > So this

is my experience with the WP. I appreciate the opportunity to vent. > > Debi> > >> >> This came to me personally, not the group, so I'm forwarding it on. BTW, to send to the group, simply hit reply on most notes. The addy for the group is rhythmicliving >> >> Laurel>> >> Begin forwarded message:>> >>> >>> Date: October 7, 2011 8:09:48 AM PDT>>> To: "laurel@..." >>> Subject: Re: Welcome newest members

>>> Reply-To: q Vest >>> >>> Hello Lauel>>> >>> I too have started the WP 3 months now.>>> >>> was wonder what your sympton are?>>> >>> thanks>>> renee>> > > > > > ------------------------------------> > click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/> > **The group conversation is informational in nature and is not intended as medical advice.**

[Guest guest]

I guess I was a bit surprised about the comment in regards to bashing WP. I

was directed here (as I have directed others here) because of big time issues

with progesterone over-dosing. This group is for that type of thing .. correct?

If we recant what we have learned and endured, I don't think it could be

considered bashing .. can it? Especially, when I thought I understood that this

is what this group is about .. women looking for help after being harmed on WP

or similar protocols ..??

Best,

Glo

>Laurel,

>            I generally find this board helpful(i.e. finding a Dr, what works

for others etc.), however, there are protocols that use " individual dosing "

that, obviously are dosed to the person as everyone is different. " I " personally

feel the problems caused by WP are from the pregnancy-induced doses of P. Anyone

that had/has problems are usually suffering from too much P. There are 2 health

problems with this..eclampsia(High blood pressure), and gestational diabetes. 

These 2 conditions only happen during pregnancy for women.  For ME,  I need high

doses of E..and yes, receptors DO need to " work' for the body to utilize ANY

hormone..even Thyroid.  It is a balance that is ever-changing..always has been

that way..the body TRIES to correct this itself.  That is why when a woman is

getting HF, it raises the FSH to pop out an egg, but there aren't any left. Once

enough E is picked up, then, FSH goes down to pre-menopausal levels, and the

> woman " feels better " (FSH affects the temperature control in our brains via the

pituitary. The puzzle is what will the woman's body need..and THAT is the piece

of the puzzle that needs to be figured out for THAT woman.  To find a provider

that will help that woman is why so many of us suffer..as MANY well-meaning Dr's

are trying to help. Remember, Drs are taught how to " treat " pts via " drugs " . 

When they have a Pt where the WP is giving them problems, they don't know how to

help THAT woman as what  " new " drug can they give her??   Funny that when a

man has a problem, they are all over finding THEM help..us women are just

" problem Pts " , give them Prozac, or Zoloft.  Makes me mad as h*ll!  I understand

that you obviously HATE the WP..but, it does work for a lot of women, AND

men..if they are followed well, they can find what does work for them, and do

that safely.  They only can get a patent on their " delivery system'..the

syringes, " lines " ,

> etc..real hormones cannot be patented.  Again,  I do not consider myself on

WP..but I was..and now I've found a protocol that works for me.  My OWN dosing

for MY body.  Can we just stop the WP bashing?  I could scare everyone when they

talk about their own Drs " protocols " ..but I don't.

>Terri

>

>

>________________________________

>

>To: rhythmicliving

>Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 1:22 PM

>Subject: Re: Re: Fwd: Welcome newest members

>

>

> 

>Welcome Debi,

>

>And thanks for signing your post with your name. I'll splice a bit here. Your

writing in blue and mine in black.

>

>> I communicated with my doctor who told me I would adjust when I had

receptors.

>

>Oh dear....this stuff about building receptors... it's the WP mumbo jumbo

incantations. There is a principle in science called Occam's Razor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor " principle that generally recommends

selecting from among competing hypotheses the one that makes the fewest new

assumptions. "

>

>Science would say that if a person is on a supralogical (super duper high

dosing) then the first thing to look at would be the dosing NOT to invent

stories about provoking receptors. In the case of the WP, it's simply mumbo

jumbo.

>

>> I am also beginning to pick up vibes at my doctor's office that if I am not

responding as I " should " then I am a problem patient.

>

>Ding ding ding....

>Your sense of this sounds very good. VERY! It's just a normal human response to

drinking kool-aid. Once humans have picked something to love, have a dream,

whatever, motivated reasoning kicks in. And there's lots of dream in the WP.

But, the onus of proof and the attention to ethics is on the WP promoters, NOT

anyone who is suffering, but that is the perspective of science, not of those

who are drinking the Kool-Aid. Once you are not doing well, then all WP

believers are set to push you down, for example, " you stay up too late " .

Explaining away difficulty by blaming the victim is common in any snake oil

routine. There really is no other way for them to behave because there is no

science to support the dream and they don't pass muster with bioethics. The

victim is the soft spot to get relief from the cognitive dissonance.

>

>Your closing paragraph is great. You show the kind of grit I believe is

necessary to get through the detox and to find your way to a healthful approach

to HRT should you choose to continue. No one here is legally or ethically

qualified to tell you what to do to get off or change your approach, but what I

hope RL offers women is support for the horrible impact of the kool-aid pressure

routines which really are awful.

>

>Hang in there, with your persistence you'll find your way. Thank you for

sharing your story.

>

>Laurel

>

>

>

>> Hi, my name is Debi. I am a new member. I am 55 yo and have been on WP for 4

months now. I was not new to BHRT, having started static dosing at age 50 with

good results, but when I moved to a new area and went to a new doctor who

recommended The WP, I agreed without doing much research...just thinking that it

would be similar to what I took successfully for several years. Let me add that

for the year prior to starting WP I had stopped all hormones thinking that I

would just be a " natural woman " and grow old gracefully (LOL). However, the

misery of the HF, lack of sleep, painful sex and brain fog that interfered with

me doing my job forced me to change my mind. Now I am, honestly, freaked

out...well as much as a badly depressed person can be freaked out - depression

that I have never had before in my life BTW.

>>

>> Here is my experience of the WP so far: For the first two weeks of the

protocol, I felt better. I think that my body got some much-starved for

estrogen. The hot flashes stopped and I was able to sleep thru the night. But

when I started P, that's when things started downhill: back pain, muscle/joint

aches, anger, cramps, mood swings, fatigue, and there was not enough sugar or

carbs in my house to satisfy me. I communicated with my doctor who told me I

would adjust when I had receptors. By the third month, when I hadn't adjusted

well, he increased my E by 2 lines per day. I always followed the

protocol/doctor directions faithfully. I had my blood tests. During the 2nd and

3rd months, I did slightly better during the E phase, but now, in the fourth

month, I am not bouncing back. I stay so tired that doing even routine things is

a major chore. I wonder if this is what chronic fatigue feels like. As I said

before, I am depressed. I can't feel joy even

> though I have a good life. I am definitely not myself. Other side effects have

started, too. I have excess hair on my face. I have break outs on my face that I

never had before. I have increased nasal congestion. I am gaining weight. Prior

to these last few months, I have always been an energetic, positive person. So

the bottom line is that while my doctor and I agreed that we would " partner " in

my goal for health, balance and increased wellbeing, I currently feel much worse

than I did when I started this treatment. I am also beginning to pick up vibes

at my doctor's office that if I am not responding as I " should " then I am a

problem patient. (Could be in my mind, though.) However, I am paying him well,

so I need to muster up the energy and assertiveness to insist that we discuss

alternative treatments. I am not sure how that will go over since he seems to be

a great advocate of the WP (my perception). He never mentioned any alternatives

to this.

>>

>> Today I am trying to decide what to do - either stop all hormones or keep

using a small dose of E until I can get in to the doc. What I am certain of is

that I do not want to continue with the WP. Four months of feeling ill is long

enough. And my freak out, that I mentioned earlier is that, after doing some

research I am afraid the the WP is the gift that keeps on giving (in the worst

way). I could whine and say that I was not fully informed of the SE, and that is

certainly true, however, I know that I have ultimate responsibility for my

health and should have done my research in advance.

>>

>> So this is my experience with the WP. I appreciate the opportunity to vent.

>>

>> Debi

>>

>>

>>>

>>> This came to me personally, not the group, so I'm forwarding it on. BTW, to

send to the group, simply hit reply on most notes. The addy for the group is

rhythmicliving

>>>

>>> Laurel

>>>

>>> Begin forwarded message:

>>>

>>>>

>>>> Date: October 7, 2011 8:09:48 AM PDT

>>>> To: " laurel@... "

>>>> Subject: Re: Welcome newest members

>>>> Reply-To: q Vest

>>>>

>>>> Hello Lauel

>>>>

>>>> I too have started the WP 3 months now.

>>>>

>>>> was wonder what your sympton are?

>>>>

>>>> thanks

>>>> renee

>>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> ------------------------------------

>>

>> click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/

>>

>> **The group conversation is informational in nature and is not intended as

medical advice.**

[Guest guest]

Glo, I guess I misunderstood this group then? "I" thought it was for alternatives to WP..BECAUSE of P "over-dosing"..AND using BHRT in a CYCLE. I did not think that it was for bashing anyone's protocol. I guess I should unsubscribe then..I don't like "bashing" of anyone.TerriTo: rhythmicliving Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 5:31 PMSubject: Re: Re: Fwd: Welcome newest members

I guess I was a bit surprised about the comment in regards to bashing WP. I was directed here (as I have directed others here) because of big time issues with progesterone over-dosing. This group is for that type of thing .. correct? If we recant what we have learned and endured, I don't think it could be considered bashing .. can it? Especially, when I thought I understood that this is what this group is about .. women looking for help after being harmed on WP or similar protocols ..??

Best,

Glo

>Laurel,

> I generally find this board helpful(i.e. finding a Dr, what works for others etc.), however, there are protocols that use "individual dosing" that, obviously are dosed to the person as everyone is different. "I" personally feel the problems caused by WP are from the pregnancy-induced doses of P. Anyone that had/has problems are usually suffering from too much P. There are 2 health problems with this..eclampsia(High blood pressure), and gestational diabetes. These 2 conditions only happen during pregnancy for women. For ME, I need high doses of E..and yes, receptors DO need to "work' for the body to utilize ANY hormone..even Thyroid. It is a balance that is ever-changing..always has been that way..the body TRIES to correct this itself. That is why when a woman is getting HF, it raises the FSH to pop out an egg, but there aren't any left.

Once enough E is picked up, then, FSH goes down to pre-menopausal levels, and the

> woman "feels better"(FSH affects the temperature control in our brains via the pituitary. The puzzle is what will the woman's body need..and THAT is the piece of the puzzle that needs to be figured out for THAT woman. To find a provider that will help that woman is why so many of us suffer..as MANY well-meaning Dr's are trying to help. Remember, Drs are taught how to "treat" pts via "drugs". When they have a Pt where the WP is giving them problems, they don't know how to help THAT woman as what "new" drug can they give her?? Funny that when a man has a problem, they are all over finding THEM help..us women are just "problem Pts", give them Prozac, or Zoloft. Makes me mad as h*ll! I understand that you obviously HATE the WP..but, it does work for a lot of women, AND men..if they are followed well, they can find what does work for them, and do that safely. They only can get a

patent on their "delivery system'..the syringes, "lines",

> etc..real hormones cannot be patented. Again, I do not consider myself on WP..but I was..and now I've found a protocol that works for me. My OWN dosing for MY body. Can we just stop the WP bashing? I could scare everyone when they talk about their own Drs "protocols"..but I don't.

>Terri

>

>

>________________________________

>

>To: rhythmicliving

>Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 1:22 PM

>Subject: Re: Re: Fwd: Welcome newest members

>

>

>

>Welcome Debi,

>

>And thanks for signing your post with your name. I'll splice a bit here. Your writing in blue and mine in black.

>

>> I communicated with my doctor who told me I would adjust when I had receptors.

>

>Oh dear....this stuff about building receptors... it's the WP mumbo jumbo incantations. There is a principle in science called Occam's Razor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor "principle that generally recommends selecting from among competing hypotheses the one that makes the fewest new assumptions."

>

>Science would say that if a person is on a supralogical (super duper high dosing) then the first thing to look at would be the dosing NOT to invent stories about provoking receptors. In the case of the WP, it's simply mumbo jumbo.

>

>> I am also beginning to pick up vibes at my doctor's office that if I am not responding as I "should" then I am a problem patient.

>

>Ding ding ding....

>Your sense of this sounds very good. VERY! It's just a normal human response to drinking kool-aid. Once humans have picked something to love, have a dream, whatever, motivated reasoning kicks in. And there's lots of dream in the WP. But, the onus of proof and the attention to ethics is on the WP promoters, NOT anyone who is suffering, but that is the perspective of science, not of those who are drinking the Kool-Aid. Once you are not doing well, then all WP believers are set to push you down, for example, "you stay up too late". Explaining away difficulty by blaming the victim is common in any snake oil routine. There really is no other way for them to behave because there is no science to support the dream and they don't pass muster with bioethics. The victim is the soft spot to get relief from the cognitive dissonance.

>

>Your closing paragraph is great. You show the kind of grit I believe is necessary to get through the detox and to find your way to a healthful approach to HRT should you choose to continue. No one here is legally or ethically qualified to tell you what to do to get off or change your approach, but what I hope RL offers women is support for the horrible impact of the kool-aid pressure routines which really are awful.

>

>Hang in there, with your persistence you'll find your way. Thank you for sharing your story.

>

>Laurel

>

>

>

>> Hi, my name is Debi. I am a new member. I am 55 yo and have been on WP for 4 months now. I was not new to BHRT, having started static dosing at age 50 with good results, but when I moved to a new area and went to a new doctor who recommended The WP, I agreed without doing much research...just thinking that it would be similar to what I took successfully for several years. Let me add that for the year prior to starting WP I had stopped all hormones thinking that I would just be a "natural woman" and grow old gracefully (LOL). However, the misery of the HF, lack of sleep, painful sex and brain fog that interfered with me doing my job forced me to change my mind. Now I am, honestly, freaked out...well as much as a badly depressed person can be freaked out - depression that I have never had before in my life BTW.

>>

>> Here is my experience of the WP so far: For the first two weeks of the protocol, I felt better. I think that my body got some much-starved for estrogen. The hot flashes stopped and I was able to sleep thru the night. But when I started P, that's when things started downhill: back pain, muscle/joint aches, anger, cramps, mood swings, fatigue, and there was not enough sugar or carbs in my house to satisfy me. I communicated with my doctor who told me I would adjust when I had receptors. By the third month, when I hadn't adjusted well, he increased my E by 2 lines per day. I always followed the protocol/doctor directions faithfully. I had my blood tests. During the 2nd and 3rd months, I did slightly better during the E phase, but now, in the fourth month, I am not bouncing back. I stay so tired that doing even routine things is a major chore. I wonder if this is what chronic fatigue feels like. As I said before, I am depressed. I can't feel joy

even

> though I have a good life. I am definitely not myself. Other side effects have started, too. I have excess hair on my face. I have break outs on my face that I never had before. I have increased nasal congestion. I am gaining weight. Prior to these last few months, I have always been an energetic, positive person. So the bottom line is that while my doctor and I agreed that we would "partner" in my goal for health, balance and increased wellbeing, I currently feel much worse than I did when I started this treatment. I am also beginning to pick up vibes at my doctor's office that if I am not responding as I "should" then I am a problem patient. (Could be in my mind, though.) However, I am paying him well, so I need to muster up the energy and assertiveness to insist that we discuss alternative treatments. I am not sure how that will go over since he seems to be a great advocate of the WP (my perception). He never mentioned any alternatives to

this.

>>

>> Today I am trying to decide what to do - either stop all hormones or keep using a small dose of E until I can get in to the doc. What I am certain of is that I do not want to continue with the WP. Four months of feeling ill is long enough. And my freak out, that I mentioned earlier is that, after doing some research I am afraid the the WP is the gift that keeps on giving (in the worst way). I could whine and say that I was not fully informed of the SE, and that is certainly true, however, I know that I have ultimate responsibility for my health and should have done my research in advance.

>>

>> So this is my experience with the WP. I appreciate the opportunity to vent.

>>

>> Debi

>>

>>

>>>

>>> This came to me personally, not the group, so I'm forwarding it on. BTW, to send to the group, simply hit reply on most notes. The addy for the group is rhythmicliving

>>>

>>> Laurel

>>>

>>> Begin forwarded message:

>>>

>>>>

>>>> Date: October 7, 2011 8:09:48 AM PDT

>>>> To: "laurel@..."

>>>> Subject: Re: Welcome newest members

>>>> Reply-To: q Vest

>>>>

>>>> Hello Lauel

>>>>

>>>> I too have started the WP 3 months now.

>>>>

>>>> was wonder what your sympton are?

>>>>

>>>> thanks

>>>> renee

>>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> ------------------------------------

>>

>> click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/

>>

>> **The group conversation is informational in nature and is not intended as medical advice.**

[Guest guest]

This (quotes from homepage website below) is why I joined this group ...not to bash, but to find my way back with support from people who have been where I am, or are experiencing what I am. I thought that this was very much about the Wiley Protocol. So I am sorry if I misunderstood....definitely didn't mean to start conflict.

Website: Rhythmic Living

…a

cautionary tale about the Wiley Protocol.

Quotes from Website:

“This site is left online as a beacon for women or

practitioners who are interested in learning about negative effects of the

ultra high dosing hormone protocol known as the Wiley Protocol .â€

“What started out as a support group for Wiley

Protocol users (producing the first documentation for the protocol) turned into

a recovery group for those who suffered from the Wiley dosing regimen.â€

DebiPrivacy Notification: This message and any accompanying attachment(s) are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521, and contain information intended for the specified individual(s) only. This information is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this message and any attachment(s) in error and that any review, dissemination, copying, or the taking of any action based on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify sender immediately by e-mail, and delete the original message

>

>> Hi, my name is Debi. I am a new member. I am 55 yo and have been on WP for 4 months now. I was not new to BHRT, having started static dosing at age 50 with good results, but when I moved to a new area and went to a new doctor who recommended The WP, I agreed without doing much research...just thinking that it would be similar to what I took successfully for several years. Let me add that for the year prior to starting WP I had stopped all hormones thinking that I would just be a "natural woman" and grow old gracefully (LOL). However, the misery of the HF, lack of sleep, painful sex and brain fog that interfered with me doing my job forced me to change my mind. Now I am, honestly, freaked out...well as much as a badly depressed person can be freaked out - depression that I have never had before in my life BTW.

>>

>> Here is my experience of the WP so far: For the first two weeks of the protocol, I felt better. I think that my body got some much-starved for estrogen. The hot flashes stopped and I was able to sleep thru the night. But when I started P, that's when things started downhill: back pain, muscle/joint aches, anger, cramps, mood swings, fatigue, and there was not enough sugar or carbs in my house to satisfy me. I communicated with my doctor who told me I would adjust when I had receptors. By the third month, when I hadn't adjusted well, he increased my E by 2 lines per day. I always followed the protocol/doctor directions faithfully. I had my blood tests. During the 2nd and 3rd months, I did slightly better during the E phase, but now, in the fourth month, I am not bouncing back. I stay so tired that doing even routine things is a major chore. I wonder if this is what chronic fatigue feels like. As I said before, I am depressed. I can't feel joy

even

> though I have a good life. I am definitely not myself. Other side effects have started, too. I have excess hair on my face. I have break outs on my face that I never had before. I have increased nasal congestion. I am gaining weight. Prior to these last few months, I have always been an energetic, positive person. So the bottom line is that while my doctor and I agreed that we would "partner" in my goal for health, balance and increased wellbeing, I currently feel much worse than I did when I started this treatment. I am also beginning to pick up vibes at my doctor's office that if I am not responding as I "should" then I am a problem patient. (Could be in my mind, though.) However, I am paying him well, so I need to muster up the energy and assertiveness to insist that we discuss alternative treatments. I am not sure how that will go over since he seems to be a great advocate of the WP (my perception). He never mentioned any alternatives to

this.

>>

>> Today I am trying to decide what to do - either stop all hormones or keep using a small dose of E until I can get in to the doc. What I am certain of is that I do not want to continue with the WP. Four months of feeling ill is long enough. And my freak out, that I mentioned earlier is that, after doing some research I am afraid the the WP is the gift that keeps on giving (in the worst way). I could whine and say that I was not fully informed of the SE, and that is certainly true, however, I know that I have ultimate responsibility for my health and should have done my research in advance.

>>

>> So this is my experience with the WP. I appreciate the opportunity to vent.

>>

>> Debi

>>

>>

>>>

>>> This came to me personally, not the group, so I'm forwarding it on. BTW, to send to the group, simply hit reply on most notes. The addy for the group is rhythmicliving

>>>

>>> Laurel

>>>

>>> Begin forwarded message:

>>>

>>>>

>>>> Date: October 7, 2011 8:09:48 AM PDT

>>>> To: "laurel@..."

>>>> Subject: Re: Welcome newest members

>>>> Reply-To: q Vest

>>>>

>>>> Hello Lauel

>>>>

>>>> I too have started the WP 3 months now.

>>>>

>>>> was wonder what your sympton are?

>>>>

>>>> thanks

>>>> renee

>>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> ------------------------------------

>>

>> click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/

>>

>> **The group conversation is informational in nature and is not intended as medical advice.**

[Guest guest]

I guess that I just have a hard time with what "I" call WP bashing. I am so sorry for every woman that suffers from "hormone-hell"..period. In my very HUMBLE opinion, I feel that with so MANY health care providers NOT understanding women, NOR hormones, NOR Menopause, that we all need to work together to help each one of us find what will work for each of us(being as we are all different). I think the WP in THEORY sounds good, but obviously not in practice. I for one am not opposed to ultra-high dosing..except of course with P..that would not EVER work for ME. I tried out a new Gyne last year, and asked about BHRT..she told me "I'm still learning about Menopause"..YIKES!!! Really? I told her that she'd better hurry 'cause she wasn't too far off from it

herself.TerriTo: rhythmicliving Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2011 1:03 AMSubject: Re: Fwd: Welcome newest members

I am VERY thankful for this site! It saved me from the potential horrors of WP. I don't see it as 'bashing' anything, just shining a light on the truth.

Thank you Laurel! Thank you also to Glo for your very helpful information!

Rosy.

>

> >>>

>

> >>> This came to me personally, not the group, so I'm forwarding it on. BTW, to send to the group, simply hit reply on most notes. The addy for the group is rhythmicliving

>

> >>>

>

> >>> Laurel

>

> >>>

>

> >>> Begin forwarded message:

>

> >>>

>

> >>>> From: q Vest <ravest95@>

>

> >>>> Date: October 7, 2011 8:09:48 AM PDT

>

> >>>> To: "laurel@" <laurel@>

>

> >>>> Subject: Re: Welcome newest members

>

> >>>> Reply-To: q Vest <ravest95@>

>

> >>>>

>

> >>>> Hello Lauel

>

> >>>>

>

> >>>> I too have started the WP 3 months now.

>

> >>>>

>

> >>>> was wonder what your sympton are?

>

> >>>>

>

> >>>> thanks

>

> >>>> renee

>

> >>>

>

> >>

>

> >>

>

> >>

>

> >>

>

> >> ------------------------------------

>

> >>

>

> >> click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/

>

> >>

>

> >> **The group conversation is informational in nature and is not intended as medical advice.**

[Guest guest]

Thanks! ((-:

Laurel

>

>

> I am VERY thankful for this site! It saved me from the potential horrors of

WP. I don't see it as 'bashing' anything, just shining a light on the truth.

>

> Thank you Laurel! Thank you also to Glo for your very helpful information!

>

> Rosy.

>

>

>>

>>>>>

>>

>>>>> This came to me personally, not the group, so I'm forwarding it on. BTW,

to send to the group, simply hit reply on most notes. The addy for the group is

rhythmicliving

>>

>>>>>

>>

>>>>> Laurel

>>

>>>>>

>>

>>>>> Begin forwarded message:

>>

>>>>>

>>

>>>>>> From: q Vest <ravest95@>

>>

>>>>>> Date: October 7, 2011 8:09:48 AM PDT

>>

>>>>>> To: " laurel@ " <laurel@>

>>

>>>>>> Subject: Re: Welcome newest members

>>

>>>>>> Reply-To: q Vest <ravest95@>

>>

>>>>>>

>>

>>>>>> Hello Lauel

>>

>>>>>>

>>

>>>>>> I too have started the WP 3 months now.

>>

>>>>>>

>>

>>>>>> was wonder what your sympton are?

>>

>>>>>>

>>

>>>>>> thanks

>>

>>>>>> renee

>>

>>>>>

>>

>>>>

>>

>>>>

>>

>>>>

>>

>>>>

>>

>>>> ------------------------------------

>>

>>>>

>>

>>>> click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/

>>

>>>>

>>

>>>> **The group conversation is informational in nature and is not intended as

medical advice.**

[Guest guest]

Terri,

I appreciate all of your contribution!

I can only speak for myself, here. If I seem to be bashing, it’s because I think I am but it’s my truth and my experience. Laurel created the website for education and awareness about the WP. My life is ruined because of the WP. And no one can convince me otherwise. Now that might sound like I’m acting like a victim but really I’m not. It’s fact. I did go on to the protocol with my eyes open and with consent. I was interested in a good quality of life. When I went on it, it was in the beginning stages. I followed it to the tee. When I crashed and burned, I was blamed, not helped. I was dumped by my dr. I was left to flounder. What upsets me to hear, are women such as the one that recently posted saying that since the WP Is not working for her, she is now feeling like she’s a difficult patient. I understand where you are coming from and I agree, we as women must be and get educated. Unfortunately, I do NOT feel the the WP is the way TO get educated. It’s dangerous info. I also agree with you that, some women do great on the WP and some don’t. I know 3 women that are on it. One is no longer on it because she developed breast cancer. Not saying the WP caused it but that is what happened to her while on it.

You don’t have to answer this but I’m curious to know if you are still using the WP creams? I too, use high doses but I REFUSE to support Susie Wiley and buy her creams. A dr can prescribe them without her name on it.

I thank you for your input as I will continue to search to see what will work for me. That is the key here. My body is different from everyone else’s. I have no idea why I don’t absorb topically. But I will continue to search, educate, etc.

Kindly,

Liz

I guess that I just have a hard time with what " I " call WP bashing. I am so sorry for every woman that suffers from " hormone-hell " ..period. In my very HUMBLE opinion, I feel that with so MANY health care providers NOT understanding women, NOR hormones, NOR Menopause, that we all need to work together to help each one of us find what will work for each of us(being as we are all different). I think the WP in THEORY sounds good, but obviously not in practice. I for one am not opposed to ultra-high dosing..except of course with P..that would not EVER work for ME. I tried out a new Gyne last year, and asked about BHRT..she told me " I'm still learning about Menopause " ..YIKES!!! Really? I told her that she'd better hurry 'cause she wasn't too far off from it herself.

Terri

To: rhythmicliving

Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2011 1:03 AM

Subject: Re: Fwd: Welcome newest members

I am VERY thankful for this site! It saved me from the potential horrors of WP. I don't see it as 'bashing' anything, just shining a light on the truth.

Thank you Laurel! Thank you also to Glo for your very helpful information!

Rosy.

>

> This (quotes from homepage website below) is why I joined this group ...not to bash, but to find my way back with support from people who have been where I am, or are experiencing what I am. I thought that this was very much about the Wiley Protocol. So I am sorry if I misunderstood....definitely didn't mean to start conflict.

>

>

>

> Website: Rhythmic Living

>

> …a

> cautionary tale about the Wiley Protocol.

>

> Quotes from Website:

>

>

>

> “This site is left online as a beacon for women or

> practitioners who are interested in learning about negative effects of the

> ultra high dosing hormone protocol known as the Wiley Protocol .”

>

>

>

> “What started out as a support group for Wiley

> Protocol users (producing the first documentation for the protocol) turned into

> a recovery group for those who suffered from the Wiley dosing regimen.”

>

>

> Debi

[Guest guest]

Liz, Thanks for the reply. What do you mean by you "crashed and burned"? I hear that often on this board, and have always wondered what women mean by that. If it is from horrible panic attacks..well, I had those start when I was 19 years old! Back then NO ONE talked about panic attacks, anxiety attacks, like they do now.."I" was left to "flounder" too. Although I did find a very good Dr that DID explain, and was put on meds that helped, and I actually got better after I had babies..coincidence??? I know what you mean by supporting S. Wiley..I use her E cream, but that is because the PA that I see sings the praises of it..and she DOES manage to get women healthy again even using WP! Go figure! I

have managed to get her to prescribe oral P(Prometrium)and that seemed to really help me feel like myself again..and I've been working with this PA for 1 1/2yrs! I am on a high dose of E..and thankfully, it has kept my symptoms at bay. If it stops seeming to work for me, well, I'll be on the "hunt" for another Dr, AGAIN..because this PA probably won't prescribe for me from another compounding pharmacy, she believes in Wiley's creams so much. So..I do use Wiley's E, but hell no I will not use her P! So, I don't know if one would consider me on WP, I've been told no they wouldn't because of the oral P. I think Drs treat the women that don't do well on WP the way they do because they don't know what the heck to do..not because they want to be jerks, they just don't have any more options in their mind. I think S. Wiley should be addressing situations like this, so Drs themselves will know what to try next for the PT. OR..do what I

did and try oral P instead of creams or gel P..but then again, Wiley CAN'T do that because she isn't even a DR! Funny how when I used WP's P, I never bled..but after using oral P for 10-12 days a month, I do? WHY if it is so strong that one overdoses on P?? I did finally get my E levels high enough(pre-menopausal levels)so maybe that was why? I just want us all to discuss what works for us..not chastise someone for using WP if that works for them. I may not agree at all with what some women use, but I would never virtually yell at someone for that. So AGAIN..I am NOT ON WP..but if it works for some, I say good for you! I also think that back when TS. Wiley was using you women as guinea pigs, or lab rats..that they learned that they had to modify their creams..I know that they lowered the P from 25mg per line to 20mg..big deal..it was STILL too much for me. They could not help you because they did not know

what to do to help you. Now, it's just a business for her..nothing more, oh..and a patent. Now I see that she has her own Wiley Pharmacy????? BHRT is just that, and if women have similiar problems,(Like the 1st users of WP, and started this list)they "should" be able to discuss what they have found what works for THEM without reprecussions. Us women need to stick together.Thanks,TerriFrom: Liz Vernand

To: rhythmicliving Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2011 5:31 PMSubject: Re: Re: Fwd: Welcome newest members

Terri,

I appreciate all of your contribution!

I can only speak for myself, here. If I seem to be bashing, it’s because I think I am but it’s my truth and my experience. Laurel created the website for education and awareness about the WP. My life is ruined because of the WP. And no one can convince me otherwise. Now that might sound like I’m acting like a victim but really I’m not. It’s fact. I did go on to the protocol with my eyes open and with consent. I was interested in a good quality of life. When I went on it, it was in the beginning stages. I followed it to the tee. When I crashed and burned, I was blamed, not helped. I was dumped by my dr. I was left to flounder. What upsets me to hear, are women such as the one that recently posted saying that since the WP Is not working for her, she is now feeling like she’s a difficult patient. I understand where you are coming from and I agree, we as women must be and get educated. Unfortunately, I do NOT feel the the WP is the way TO get

educated. It’s dangerous info. I also agree with you that, some women do great on the WP and some don’t. I know 3 women that are on it. One is no longer on it because she developed breast cancer. Not saying the WP caused it but that is what happened to her while on it.

You don’t have to answer this but I’m curious to know if you are still using the WP creams? I too, use high doses but I REFUSE to support Susie Wiley and buy her creams. A dr can prescribe them without her name on it.

I thank you for your input as I will continue to search to see what will work for me. That is the key here. My body is different from everyone else’s. I have no idea why I don’t absorb topically. But I will continue to search, educate, etc.

Kindly,

Liz

I guess that I just have a hard time with what "I" call WP bashing. I am so sorry for every woman that suffers from "hormone-hell"..period. In my very HUMBLE opinion, I feel that with so MANY health care providers NOT understanding women, NOR hormones, NOR Menopause, that we all need to work together to help each one of us find what will work for each of us(being as we are all different). I think the WP in THEORY sounds good, but obviously not in practice. I for one am not opposed to ultra-high dosing..except of course with P..that would not EVER work for ME. I tried out a new Gyne last year, and asked about BHRT..she told me "I'm still learning about Menopause"..YIKES!!! Really? I told her that she'd better hurry 'cause she wasn't too far off from it herself.

Terri

To: rhythmicliving

Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2011 1:03 AM

Subject: Re: Fwd: Welcome newest members

I am VERY thankful for this site! It saved me from the potential horrors of WP. I don't see it as 'bashing' anything, just shining a light on the truth.

Thank you Laurel! Thank you also to Glo for your very helpful information!

Rosy.

>

> This (quotes from homepage website below) is why I joined this group ...not to bash, but to find my way back with support from people who have been where I am, or are experiencing what I am. I thought that this was very much about the Wiley Protocol. So I am sorry if I misunderstood....definitely didn't mean to start conflict.

>

>

>

> Website: Rhythmic Living

>

> …a

> cautionary tale about the Wiley Protocol.

>

> Quotes from Website:

>

>

>

> “This site is left online as a beacon for women or

> practitioners who are interested in learning about negative effects of the

> ultra high dosing hormone protocol known as the Wiley Protocol .â€

>

>

>

> “What started out as a support group for Wiley

> Protocol users (producing the first documentation for the protocol) turned into

> a recovery group for those who suffered from the Wiley dosing regimen.â€

>

>

> Debi

[Guest guest]

I am happy that we are a group that cares and can share. I am learning so much from you all. But the best thing is that I am not alone in our journey. Laurel has done a wonderful thing by creating this site. But we have to be aware that some treatments work for others and some do not. The Body is a wonderful mystery! Scary but a mystery none the less.

With is group we can all learn from each other.

Thank you to each and everyone of you for helping me learn and grow.

cheers