Re: Induced Period vs No Period Post Menopause

January 3, 2012

My oncologist prescribed Progesterone because it is the antiproliferative hormone. I was asking what the symptoms are of too much progesterone?

, was your breast cancer progesterone receptive? Why has your oncologist rxd transdermal cream?

Val

From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of itsmelindad

Hi, Glo -

This is my first post here. Please tell me the side effects you speak of. I'm post breast cancer and my oncologist Rxd transdermal P cream, but I'm concerned about the buildup, and I think intravaginally would be better.

Hi Val,

In my opinion, using the prometrium vaginally, is working much better for me .. than taking it orally or using transdermally. I'm not positive if because I was way overdosed on the P, for several years, caused me to be ultra-sensitve to progesterone? ... Or if maybe I typically (during my " productive " years) I did not produce much, thus my body is not used to what might be considered higher doses? But, I really feel like I have to be careful as to how muchprogesterone I am exposing my body to. The side effects (I'm sure I don't have to tell you) are awful. I think I probably have a few minor side effects on using that prometrium vaginally, but there are minmal comparitively.

I am hoping that using it the way I do (vaginally) may actually be more protective for me? I am one that gets estradiol pellets about every three months. So, I guess you could consider that constant (static) dosing on the estradiol? The only thing I cycle would be the progesterone.

Best,

Glo

January 3, 2012

,

For me, to much P is dizziness, major depression, anxiety, blood sugar issues. FYI, I got endometrial cancer while on transdermal prescription hormone cream at the age of 39. If I’m understanding correctly, your dr wants you to use it protect your breasts. For me, the P either caused the cancer to grow OR I was not absorbing enough to protect my uterus. Or maybe even both. I got the side effects but not any benefits. My message has been, don’t assume just because you are using something, that it’s protecting.

Be well!

Liz

My oncologist prescribed Progesterone because it is the antiproliferative hormone. I was asking what the symptoms are of too much progesterone?

, was your breast cancer progesterone receptive? Why has your oncologist rxd transdermal cream?

Val

From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of itsmelindad

Hi, Glo -

This is my first post here. Please tell me the side effects you speak of. I'm post breast cancer and my oncologist Rxd transdermal P cream, but I'm concerned about the buildup, and I think intravaginally would be better.

Hi Val,

In my opinion, using the prometrium vaginally, is working much better for me .. than taking it orally or using transdermally. I'm not positive if because I was way overdosed on the P, for several years, caused me to be ultra-sensitve to progesterone? ... Or if maybe I typically (during my " productive " years) I did not produce much, thus my body is not used to what might be considered higher doses? But, I really feel like I have to be careful as to how muchprogesterone I am exposing my body to. The side effects (I'm sure I don't have to tell you) are awful. I think I probably have a few minor side effects on using that prometrium vaginally, but there are minmal comparitively.

I am hoping that using it the way I do (vaginally) may actually be more protective for me? I am one that gets estradiol pellets about every three months. So, I guess you could consider that constant (static) dosing on the estradiol? The only thing I cycle would be the progesterone.

Best,

Glo

http://liz-vernand.artistwebsites.com

http://fineartamerica.com/shop/liz-vernand.html

January 3, 2012

Hi , I'm sorry I did not see your question before. I think symptoms of "too much" progesterone can be very individual. Generally (and for me too) I suffered extreme depression, lack of motivation, brain fog, fatigue, weight gain and on and on. The "problem" for me? Once I was in that quagmire (being overdosed) I was so deeply in, I could not put two and two together ... that it was the progesterone causing all my symptoms. Until I got my estradiol levels up to a "decent" level (175 or just over 200) I do not feel that I could tolerate any kind of progesterone. As long as my estradiol levels are "up" and continue to stay "up", I have had minimal issues. My "minimal" issues

currently are that I do feel increased fatigue ... need to really shake off my sleepiness in the morning and also experience occasional brain fog. This would be only during the time that I cycle that progesterone in ... twelve days a month and is definitely not as severe as it previously was. In regards to my issues with progesterone .... I feel I was previously severely overdosed. I think the overdosing may have made me ultra-sensitive to the progesterone. By the way, I was using a transdermal progesterone cream at that time. There are many "overdose stories" on this group. I think all you (maybe?) need to do are some searches within the group? Hope that helps some? Best,Glo To: rhythmicliving Sent: Tuesday, January 3, 2012 5:08 PM Subject: Re: Re: Induced Period vs No Period Post Menopause

My oncologist prescribed Progesterone because it is the antiproliferative hormone. I was asking what the symptoms are of too much progesterone?

, was your breast cancer progesterone receptive? Why has your oncologist rxd transdermal cream?

Val

From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of itsmelindad

Hi, Glo -

This is my first post here. Please tell me the side effects you speak of. I'm post breast cancer and my oncologist Rxd transdermal P cream, but I'm concerned about the buildup, and I think intravaginally would be better.

Hi Val,

In my opinion, using the prometrium vaginally, is working much better for me .. than taking it orally or using transdermally. I'm not positive if because I was way overdosed on the P, for several years, caused me to be ultra-sensitve to progesterone? ... Or if maybe I typically (during my "productive" years) I did not produce much, thus my body is not used to what might be considered higher doses? But, I really feel like I have to be careful as to how muchprogesterone I am exposing my body to. The side effects (I'm sure I don't have to tell you) are awful. I think I probably have a few minor side effects on using that prometrium vaginally, but there are minmal comparitively.

I am hoping that using it the way I do (vaginally) may actually be more protective for me? I am one that gets estradiol pellets about every three months. So, I guess you could consider that constant (static) dosing on the estradiol? The only thing I cycle would be the progesterone.

Best,

Glo

January 3, 2012

Thanks for this, Glo. I might pick your brain a little more after I talk to the pellet dr :-)

Thanks for taking the time to share this!

Liz

Hi Liz,

I do get the testosterone pellets with my estrogen pellets. I never considered not getting those. Perhaps because the pellet doc's advocate both?

Initially I felt I did not like the results of the testosterone pellets. But once my body became accustomed (not sure that is the correct word?) I don't think would go without it. Since I began the pellet therapy, I have lost over 50 pounds and feel (for the most part) like I am getting my " normal life " back.

I started my pellet therapy in May of 2010 after unsuccessfully trying every other delivery method of BHRT.

Glo

Hi Glo,

I’m going to have a consult for pellets. I’m hoping this method will actually work for me. I’ve been wondering if E pellets alone are used. Do you get testo ones also? (I may have already asked this and you have answered, sorry if so!)

Another question for the group. Does anyone use P who does not have a uterus and use it vaginally?

Liz

Hi Val,

In my opinion, using the prometrium vaginally, is working much better for me .. than taking it orally or using transdermally. I'm not positive if because I was way overdosed on the P, for several years, caused me to be ultra-sensitve to progesterone? ... Or if maybe I typically (during my " productive " years) I did not produce much, thus my body is not used to what might be considered higher doses? But, I really feel like I have to be careful as to how muchprogesterone I am exposing my body to. The side effects (I'm sure I don't have to tell you) are awful. I think I probably have a few minor side effects on using that prometrium vaginally, but there are minmal comparitively.

I am hoping that using it the way I do (vaginally) may actually be more protective for me? I am one that gets estradiol pellets about every three months. So, I guess you could consider that constant (static) dosing on the estradiol? The only thing I cycle would be the progesterone.

Best,

Glo

To: rhythmicliving

Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 7:50 PM

Subject: RE: Re: Induced Period vs No Period Post Menopause

Prometrium is bioidentical progesterone. I think the scare was the Women's Health Initiative (WHI). It found a slight, but significant, increase in breast cancer with horse pee (Premarin) + a synthetic progestin. Interestinely, it found a slight (but not significant) decrease in BC with the horse pee alone. It was stopped because of stoke incidence (I think). I don't think there has ever been a correlation between stroke and transdermal estrogen. I do not take oral estrogen.

I've not found any good research on progesterone but I haven't really looked lately.

How does the vaginal Prometrium work for you?

Val

http://liz-vernand.artistwebsites.com

http://fineartamerica.com/shop/liz-vernand.html

January 3, 2012

Hi Glo,

Yes, thank you. This is very helpful.

Hi ,

I'm sorry I did not see your question before. I think symptoms of " too much " progesterone can be very individual. Generally (and for me too) I suffered extreme depression, lack of motivation, brain fog, fatigue, weight gain and on and on. The " problem " for me? Once I was in that quagmire (being overdosed) I was so deeply in, I could not put two and two together ... that it was the progesterone causing all my symptoms.

Until I got my estradiol levels up to a " decent " level (175 or just over 200) I do not feel that I could tolerate any kind of progesterone. As long as my estradiol levels are " up " and continue to stay " up " , I have had minimal issues. My " minimal " issues currently are that I do feel increased fatigue ... need to really shake off my sleepiness in the morning and also experience occasional brain fog. This would be only during the time that I cycle that progesterone in ... twelve days a month and is definitely not as severe as it previously was.

In regards to my issues with progesterone .... I feel I was previously severely overdosed. I think the overdosing may have made me ultra-sensitive to the progesterone. By the way, I was using a transdermal progesterone cream at that time.

There are many " overdose stories " on this group. I think all you (maybe?) need to do are some searches within the group?

Hope that helps some?

Best,

Glo

January 3, 2012

Hi Liz,

Thank you for this information. I appreciate it.

,For me, to much P is dizziness, major depression, anxiety, blood sugar issues. FYI, I got endometrial cancer while on transdermal prescription hormone cream at the age of 39. If I’m understanding correctly, your dr wants you to use it protect your breasts. For me, the P either caused the cancer to grow OR I was not absorbing enough to protect my uterus. Or maybe even both. I got the side effects but not any benefits. My message has been, don’t assume just because you are using something, that it’s protecting.

Be well!Liz

My oncologist prescribed Progesterone because it is the antiproliferative hormone. I was asking what the symptoms are of too much progesterone?

January 3, 2012

Gael, Do you build up a lining just using the estrogen? I have progesterone problems too and can't tolerate it. I've been taking E for about 5 years on/off, mostly on. I have to take estrogen (just 1 pump of estrogel daily) or I am up all night flashing. I try to take P for 10 days or so but generally stop short of that since the P brings back the hot flashes at night. I've built up a lining when I wasn't even taking E and have built up one while taking it without P. Now I have yet another 9mm lining that my gyn is very unhappy about and this was built up while suffering through using the P for 10 days or so. Janet To: rhythmicliving From: gaelgreen@...Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 21:38:14 -0500Subject: Re: Re: Induced Period vs No Period Post Menopause

I'm on the fence about it because of the terrible effect P has on me. My current bout of vertigo began two weeks ago when I applied the tiniest of doses of progesterone transdermally for only five days. The day I stopped, the vertigo began and has not abated. It's not very severe but it reminds me of the last time I used P before this, when the vertigo was so severe I could not get out of bed for days. I never want to go through that again. I have no idea why externally supplied P affects me in this way. I was never on Wiley and never OD'd on it so far as I know. I only did the five day trial recently because my P came back at .15 on a blood test for hormone levels.

Also, after menopause our bodies do not naturally cycle, other than possibly in ways we don't understand and wouldn't know what to supplement for. This also gives me pause. I would not be using estrogen if it were not for the fact that I get vertigo and terrible hot flashes when I try to go off it. I don't seem to be able to do without it at this point. I have been on it for ten years, and have an ovarian cyst, and of course this all worries me greatly.

Gael

Everyone should "cycle" their hormones..even without a uterus. All sex hormones should be replaced in a cycle..JMHO.

Terri

January 3, 2012

Janet, do you use estradiol throughout 12 days of Prometrium? I do. Val From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of Janet AGael, Do you build up a lining just using the estrogen? I have progesterone problems too and can't tolerate it. I've been taking E for about 5 years on/off, mostly on. I have to take estrogen (just 1 pump of estrogel daily) or I am up all night flashing. I try to take P for 10 days or so but generally stop short of that since the P brings back the hot flashes at night. I've built up a lining when I wasn't even taking E and have built up one while taking it without P. Now I have yet another 9mm lining that my gyn is very unhappy about and this was built up while suffering through using the P for 10 days or so. Janet To: rhythmicliving@yahoogr oups.comI'm on the fence about it because of the terrible effect P has on me. My current bout of vertigo began two weeks ago when I applied the tiniest of doses of progesterone transdermally for only five days. The day I stopped, the vertigo began and has not abated. It's not very severe but it reminds me of the last time I used P before this, when the vertigo was so severe I could not get out of bed for days. I never want to go through that again. I have no idea why externally supplied P affects me in this way. I was never on Wiley and never OD'd on it so far as I know. I only did the five day trial recently because my P came back at .15 on a blood test for hormone levels. Also, after menopause our bodies do not naturally cycle, other than possibly in ways we don't understand and wouldn't know what to supplement for. This also gives me pause. I would not be using estrogen if it were not for the fact that I get vertigo and terrible hot flashes when I try to go off it. I don't seem to be able to do without it at this point. I have been on it for ten years, and have an ovarian cyst, and of course this all worries me greatly. Gael Everyone should " cycle " their hormones..even without a uterus. All sex hormones should be replaced in a cycle..JMHO.Terri

January 3, 2012

Hi Janet,

I built up a lining so thick that when I was charting BELOW menopause levels for estrogen I had to have a hysterectomy. My lining was 13 and the pathology report came back complex hyperplasia with atypia. I had had bleeding problems for years before I was ever on estrogen. I'm not at all certain that exogenous E or P have much to do with it. I do know that I could never tolerate P very well, and I have a feeling it may have contributed to the bleeding problems. That's just an intuition about my own body. I think we know so very little about how the hormones interact with us individually, and I wish I did not need to take any of them, but as of now I just can't manage day to day life without estrogen. Good luck to you in your quest to figure it out and let me know when you do! I need all the help I can get.

Gael

Gael, Do you build up a lining just using the estrogen? I have progesterone problems too and can't tolerate it. I've been taking E for about 5 years on/off, mostly on. I have to take estrogen (just 1 pump of estrogel daily) or I am up all night flashing. I try to take P for 10 days or so but generally stop short of that since the P brings back the hot flashes at night. I've built up a lining when I wasn't even taking E and have built up one while taking it without P. Now I have yet another 9mm lining that my gyn is very unhappy about and this was built up while suffering through using the P for 10 days or so. Janet

To: rhythmicliving@yahoogr oups.comFrom: gaelgreen@...Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 21:38:14 -0500Subject: Re: Re: Induced Period vs No Period Post Menopause

I'm on the fence about it because of the terrible effect P has on me. My current bout of vertigo began two weeks ago when I applied the tiniest of doses of progesterone transdermally for only five days. The day I stopped, the vertigo began and has not abated. It's not very severe but it reminds me of the last time I used P before this, when the vertigo was so severe I could not get out of bed for days. I never want to go through that again. I have no idea why externally supplied P affects me in this way. I was never on Wiley and never OD'd on it so far as I know. I only did the five day trial recently because my P came back at .15 on a blood test for hormone levels.

Also, after menopause our bodies do not naturally cycle, other than possibly in ways we don't understand and wouldn't know what to supplement for. This also gives me pause. I would not be using estrogen if it were not for the fact that I get vertigo and terrible hot flashes when I try to go off it. I don't seem to be able to do without it at this point. I have been on it for ten years, and have an ovarian cyst, and of course this all worries me greatly.

Gael

Everyone should "cycle" their hormones..even without a uterus. All sex hormones should be replaced in a cycle..JMHO.

Terri

January 4, 2012

I'm not going to be touching the stuff ever again, Val. I'm stubborn, but I learned my lesson. And this was after four years of no P, and because I was told that my P was too low. I now think there is no such thing as P being too low after menopause.

Gael

If I didn't have a uterus, I wouldn't touch progesterone with a 10-foot pole. If it makes you feel badly, don't do it. For all we know, progesterone may act just like progestins for breast cancer. My gyn says progesterone tests are norariously inaccurate.

Val

From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of gaelgreen@...

I'm on the fence about it because of the terrible effect P has on me. My current bout of vertigo began two weeks ago when I applied the tiniest of doses of progesterone transdermally for only five days. The day I stopped, the vertigo began and has not abated. It's not very severe but it reminds me of the last time I used P before this, when the vertigo was so severe I could not get out of bed for days. I never want to go through that again. I have no idea why externally supplied P affects me in this way. I was never on Wiley and never OD'd on it so far as I know. I only did the five day trial recently because my P came back at .15 on a blood test for hormone levels.

Also, after menopause our bodies do not naturally cycle, other than possibly in ways we don't understand and wouldn't know what to supplement for. This also gives me pause. I would not be using estrogen if it were not for the fact that I get vertigo and terrible hot flashes when I try to go off it. I don't seem to be able to do without it at this point. I have been on it for ten years, and have an ovarian cyst, and of course this all worries me greatly.

Everyone should "cycle" their hormones..even without a uterus. All sex hormones should be replaced in a cycle..JMHO.

Terri

January 4, 2012

Val,I use the 1 pump of estrogel every day and strive to tolerate a 10 day course each month of the wiley compounded P that I'd ordered ions ago but never went on the protocol. I use just one line, 20mg.Janet To: rhythmicliving From: val@...Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 23:11:34 -0700Subject: RE: Re: Induced Period vs No Period Post Menopause

Janet, do you use estradiol throughout 12 days of Prometrium? I do. Val From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of Janet AGael, Do you build up a lining just using the estrogen? I have progesterone problems too and can't tolerate it. I've been taking E for about 5 years on/off, mostly on. I have to take estrogen (just 1 pump of estrogel daily) or I am up all night flashing. I try to take P for 10 days or so but generally stop short of that since the P brings back the hot flashes at night. I've built up a lining when I wasn't even taking E and have built up one while taking it without P. Now I have yet another 9mm lining that my gyn is very unhappy about and this was built up while suffering through using the P for 10 days or so. Janet To: rhythmicliving@yahoogr oups.comI'm on the fence about it because of the terrible effect P has on me. My current bout of vertigo began two weeks ago when I applied the tiniest of doses of progesterone transdermally for only five days. The day I stopped, the vertigo began and has not abated. It's not very severe but it reminds me of the last time I used P before this, when the vertigo was so severe I could not get out of bed for days. I never want to go through that again. I have no idea why externally supplied P affects me in this way. I was never on Wiley and never OD'd on it so far as I know. I only did the five day trial recently because my P came back at .15 on a blood test for hormone levels. Also, after menopause our bodies do not naturally cycle, other than possibly in ways we don't understand and wouldn't know what to supplement for. This also gives me pause. I would not be using estrogen if it were not for the fact that I get vertigo and terrible hot flashes when I try to go off it. I don't seem to be able to do without it at this point. I have been on it for ten years, and have an ovarian cyst, and of course this all worries me greatly. Gael Everyone should "cycle" their hormones..even without a uterus. All sex hormones should be replaced in a cycle..JMHO.Terri

January 5, 2012

If your uterus doesn't need progesterone and it makes you feel worse, dump it.Â It has insulin and blood glucose implications.Â There is a whole cult of progesterone rangers out there, and they have no valid research to support their contentions. Val From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of gaelgreen@...I'm not going to be touching the stuff ever again, Val. I'm stubborn, but I learned my lesson. And this was after four years of no P, and because I was told that my P was too low. I now think there is no such thing as P being too low after menopause. If I didn't have a uterus, I wouldn't touch progesterone with a 10-foot pole. If it makes you feel badly, don't do it. For all we know, progesterone may act just like progestins for breast cancer. My gyn says progesterone tests are norariously inaccurate. ValFrom: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of gaelgreen@...I'm on the fence about it because of the terrible effect P has on me. My current bout of vertigo began two weeks ago when I applied the tiniest of doses of progesterone transdermally for only five days. The day I stopped, the vertigo began and has not abated. It's not very severe but it reminds me of the last time I used P before this, when the vertigo was so severe I could not get out of bed for days. I never want to go through that again. I have no idea why externally supplied P affects me in this way. I was never on Wiley and never OD'd on it so far as I know. I only did the five day trial recently because my P came back at .15 on a blood test for hormone levels. Also, after menopause our bodies do not naturally cycle, other than possibly in ways we don't understand and wouldn't know what to supplement for. This also gives me pause. I would not be using estrogen if it were not for the fact that I get vertigo and terrible hot flashes when I try to go off it. I don't seem to be able to do without it at this point. I have been on it for ten years, and have an ovarian cyst, and of course this all worries me greatly.Everyone should " cycle " their hormones..even without a uterus. All sex hormones should be replaced in a cycle..JMHO.Terri

January 5, 2012

Janet, progesterone cream fails to protect the uterus in 32% of users. Why not vaginal P? I think progesterone cream is one of the great assaults foisted on women. Val From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of Janet AVal,I use the 1 pump of estrogel every day and strive to tolerate a 10 day course each month of the wiley compounded P that I'd ordered ions ago but never went on the protocol. I use just one line, 20mg.Janet To: rhythmicliving Janet, do you use estradiol throughout 12 days of Prometrium? I do. Val From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of Janet AGael, Do you build up a lining just using the estrogen? I have progesterone problems too and can't tolerate it. I've been taking E for about 5 years on/off, mostly on. I have to take estrog en (just 1 pump of estrogel daily) or I am up all night flashing. I try to take P for 10 days or so but generally stop short of that since the P brings back the hot flashes at night. I've built up a lining when I wasn't even taking E and have built up one while taking it without P. Now I have yet another 9mm lining that my gyn is very unhappy about and this was built up while suffering through using the P for 10 days or so. Janet To: rhythmicliving@yahoogr oups.comI'm on the fence about it because of the terrible effect P has on me. My current bout of vertigo began two weeks ago when I applied the tiniest of doses of progesterone transdermally for only five days. The day I stopped, the vertigo began and has not abated. It's not very severe but it reminds me of the last time I used P before this, when the vertigo was so severe I could not get out of bed for days. I never want to go through that again. I have no idea why externally supplied P affects me in this way. I was never on Wiley and never OD'd on it so far as I know. I only did the five day trial recently because my P came back at .15 on a blood test for hormone levels. Also, after menopause our bodies do not naturally cycle, other than possibly in ways we don't understand and wouldn't know what to supplement for. This also gives me pause. I would not be using estrogen if it were not for the fact that I get vertigo and terrible hot flashes when I try to go off it. I don't seem to be able to do without it at this point. I have been on it for ten years, and have an ovarian cyst, and of course this all worries me greatly. Gael Everyone should " cycle " their hormones..even without a uterus. All sex hormones should be replaced in a cycle..JMHO.Terri

January 5, 2012

Val,

I've not thought of vaginal P as an alternative. Why would that be different? If P cream brings back my hot flashes then would vaginal P not do the same thing?

I see a doctor who diagnoses through taking your pulse. While he is taking the pulse he places substances near your ear and sees what the pulse reaction is. It is similar to muscle testing.

I brought my P cream there yesterday along with some other things and the P cream came up as problematic....just another confirmation.

janet

To: rhythmicliving From: val@...Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 13:34:30 -0700Subject: RE: Re: Induced Period vs No Period Post Menopause

Janet, progesterone cream fails to protect the uterus in 32% of users. Why not vaginal P? I think progesterone cream is one of the great assaults foisted on women.

Val

From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of Janet A

Val,I use the 1 pump of estrogel every day and strive to tolerate a 10 day course each month of the wiley compounded P that I'd ordered ions ago but never went on the protocol. I use just one line, 20mg.Janet

To: rhythmicliving

Janet, do you use estradiol throughout 12 days of Prometrium? I do.

Val

From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of Janet A

Gael, Do you build up a lining just using the estrogen? I have progesterone problems too and can't tolerate it. I've been taking E for about 5 years on/off, mostly on. I have to take estrog en (just 1 pump of estrogel daily) or I am up all night flashing. I try to take P for 10 days or so but generally stop short of that since the P brings back the hot flashes at night. I've built up a lining when I wasn't even taking E and have built up one while taking it without P. Now I have yet another 9mm lining that my gyn is very unhappy about and this was built up while suffering through using the P for 10 days or so. Janet

To: rhythmicliving@yahoogr oups.com

I'm on the fence about it because of the terrible effect P has on me. My current bout of vertigo began two weeks ago when I applied the tiniest of doses of progesterone transdermally for only five days. The day I stopped, the vertigo began and has not abated. It's not very severe but it reminds me of the last time I used P before this, when the vertigo was so severe I could not get out of bed for days. I never want to go through that again. I have no idea why externally supplied P affects me in this way. I was never on Wiley and never OD'd on it so far as I know. I only did the five day trial recently because my P came back at .15 on a blood test for hormone levels.

Also, after menopause our bodies do not naturally cycle, other than possibly in ways we don't understand and wouldn't know what to supplement for. This also gives me pause. I would not be using estrogen if it were not for the fact that I get vertigo and terrible hot flashes when I try to go off it. I don't seem to be able to do without it at this point. I have been on it for ten years, and have an ovarian cyst, and of course this all worries me greatly.

Gael

Everyone should "cycle" their hormones..even without a uterus. All sex hormones should be replaced in a cycle..JMHO.

Terri

January 5, 2012

Hi Janet, I'm a bit concerned for you seeing a doc who is using this method for diagnosing your health. There's no science to support this method. It's a way to go, but don't confuse it with anything close to scientific. Science has a method and procedure which is used to get beyond our natural human predisposition to filter life through our beliefs. For this method we'd have to give some scientific explanation that makes this seem like a plausible option, then we'd have to set up some well designed studies, but the first requirement won't fly so there's no use going to the second. The placebo effect (several versions actually) is well documented and again it's an option to go with stories rather than science, but not one that is better than trying to align with what is coming from science and academic medicine. Here's a fascinating podcast with a researcher in the field of placebo. http://www.brainsciencepodcast.com/bsp/neurobiology-of-placebos-with-fabrizio-benedetti-bsp-77.html Do you have other options for a hormone doc? LaurelVal,I've not thought of vaginal P as an alternative. Why would that be different? If P cream brings back my hot flashes then would vaginal P not do the same thing? I see a doctor who diagnoses through taking your pulse. While he is taking the pulse he places substances near your ear and sees what the pulse reaction is. It is similar to muscle testing. I brought my P cream there yesterday along with some other things and the P cream came up as problematic....just another confirmation.janet To: rhythmicliving From: val@...Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 13:34:30 -0700Subject: RE: Re: Induced Period vs No Period Post MenopauseJanet, progesterone cream fails to protect the uterus in 32% of users. Why not vaginal P? I think progesterone cream is one of the great assaults foisted on women. Val From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of Janet AVal,I use the 1 pump of estrogel every day and strive to tolerate a 10 day course each month of the wiley compounded P that I'd ordered ions ago but never went on the protocol. I use just one line, 20mg.Janet To: rhythmicliving Janet, do you use estradiol throughout 12 days of Prometrium? I do. Val From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of Janet AGael, Do you build up a lining just using the estrogen? I have progesterone problems too and can't tolerate it. I've been taking E for about 5 years on/off, mostly on. I have to take estrog en (just 1 pump of estrogel daily) or I am up all night flashing. I try to take P for 10 days or so but generally stop short of that since the P brings back the hot flashes at night. I've built up a lining when I wasn't even taking E and have built up one while taking it without P. Now I have yet another 9mm lining that my gyn is very unhappy about and this was built up while suffering through using the P for 10 days or so. Janet To: rhythmicliving@yahoogr oups.comI'm on the fence about it because of the terrible effect P has on me. My current bout of vertigo began two weeks ago when I applied the tiniest of doses of progesterone transdermally for only five days. The day I stopped, the vertigo began and has not abated. It's not very severe but it reminds me of the last time I used P before this, when the vertigo was so severe I could not get out of bed for days. I never want to go through that again. I have no idea why externally supplied P affects me in this way. I was never on Wiley and never OD'd on it so far as I know. I only did the five day trial recently because my P came back at .15 on a blood test for hormone levels. Also, after menopause our bodies do not naturally cycle, other than possibly in ways we don't understand and wouldn't know what to supplement for. This also gives me pause. I would not be using estrogen if it were not for the fact that I get vertigo and terrible hot flashes when I try to go off it. I don't seem to be able to do without it at this point. I have been on it for ten years, and have an ovarian cyst, and of course this all worries me greatly. Gael Everyone should "cycle" their hormones..even without a uterus. All sex hormones should be replaced in a cycle..JMHO.Terri

January 6, 2012

Hi Laurel, I deeply appreciate your take on 'scientific' methods. I have seen a plethora of western and alternative practitioners over the last 5 years after crashing at age 52 from a once vibrant healthy energetic individual to bearly functional. I know it is a stretch to view muscle testing or pulse taking as credible. What I have found is that the "alternative" practitioners I've seen provided a much needed perspective. One educated me about all the toxins I was exposed to, helped me with allergic reactions that were ballastic. I believe in my body's own wisdom. Many on this list can attest to their body's "knowing" The doctor I see who uses the pulse method is not my hormone doc, per se. He diagnosed me with lyme, babesia and bartonella back in March. Acupuncture has used the pulse to diagnose for thousands of years. My "scientific" lyme blood test came back inconclusive, as they all are, but after being treated for these tick diseases I am a new person so very grateful for his treatment. I went to see him after I asked him what his thoughts were about Hashimoto's thyroid. He asked me why did I think my body was attacking my thyroid? I replied with all the "scientific medical research" theories. He said, "your immune system is acting appropriately and there is something there it wants to get rid of. I find it is most often lyme and/or other tick infections." That was a totally different take on things and I figured I had nothing to lose and everything to gain by seeing him. As it turned out, after a few months on the homeopathics he prescribed, my thyroid antibodies are half of what they were and I feel like I have my life 80% back. In the estrogen/progesterone arena I am currently working with Chinese herbs to address my remaining night heat so I can sleep and get off the 1 pump of estrogel. I want to be off all hormones. Thanks again for your input.Janet To: rhythmicliving From: laurel@...Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 23:19:58 -0800Subject: Re: Re: Induced Period vs No Period Post Menopause

Hi Janet, I'm a bit concerned for you seeing a doc who is using this method for diagnosing your health. There's no science to support this method. It's a way to go, but don't confuse it with anything close to scientific. Science has a method and procedure which is used to get beyond our natural human predisposition to filter life through our beliefs. For this method we'd have to give some scientific explanation that makes this seem like a plausible option, then we'd have to set up some well designed studies, but the first requirement won't fly so there's no use going to the second. The placebo effect (several versions actually) is well documented and again it's an option to go with stories rather than science, but not one that is better than trying to align with what is coming from science and academic medicine. Here's a fascinating podcast with a researcher in the field of placebo. http://www.brainsciencepodcast.com/bsp/neurobiology-of-placebos-with-fabrizio-benedetti-bsp-77.html Do you have other options for a hormone doc? LaurelVal,I've not thought of vaginal P as an alternative. Why would that be different? If P cream brings back my hot flashes then would vaginal P not do the same thing? I see a doctor who diagnoses through taking your pulse. While he is taking the pulse he places substances near your ear and sees what the pulse reaction is. It is similar to muscle testing. I brought my P cream there yesterday along with some other things and the P cream came up as problematic....just another confirmation.janet To: rhythmicliving From: val@...Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 13:34:30 -0700Subject: RE: Re: Induced Period vs No Period Post MenopauseJanet, progesterone cream fails to protect the uterus in 32% of users. Why not vaginal P? I think progesterone cream is one of the great assaults foisted on women. Val From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of Janet AVal,I use the 1 pump of estrogel every day and strive to tolerate a 10 day course each month of the wiley compounded P that I'd ordered ions ago but never went on the protocol. I use just one line, 20mg.Janet To: rhythmicliving Janet, do you use estradiol throughout 12 days of Prometrium? I do. Val From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of Janet AGael, Do you build up a lining just using the estrogen? I have progesterone problems too and can't tolerate it. I've been taking E for about 5 years on/off, mostly on. I have to take estrog en (just 1 pump of estrogel daily) or I am up all night flashing. I try to take P for 10 days or so but generally stop short of that since the P brings back the hot flashes at night. I've built up a lining when I wasn't even taking E and have built up one while taking it without P. Now I have yet another 9mm lining that my gyn is very unhappy about and this was built up while suffering through using the P for 10 days or so. Janet To: rhythmicliving@yahoogr oups.comI'm on the fence about it because of the terrible effect P has on me. My current bout of vertigo began two weeks ago when I applied the tiniest of doses of progesterone transdermally for only five days. The day I stopped, the vertigo began and has not abated. It's not very severe but it reminds me of the last time I used P before this, when the vertigo was so severe I could not get out of bed for days. I never want to go through that again. I have no idea why externally supplied P affects me in this way. I was never on Wiley and never OD'd on it so far as I know. I only did the five day trial recently because my P came back at .15 on a blood test for hormone levels. Also, after menopause our bodies do not naturally cycle, other than possibly in ways we don't understand and wouldn't know what to supplement for. This also gives me pause. I would not be using estrogen if it were not for the fact that I get vertigo and terrible hot flashes when I try to go off it. I don't seem to be able to do without it at this point. I have been on it for ten years, and have an ovarian cyst, and of course this all worries me greatly. Gael Everyone should "cycle" their hormones..even without a uterus. All sex hormones should be replaced in a cycle..JMHO.Terri

January 6, 2012

Vaginal P is more likely to protect your uterus and less likely than progesterone cream to be as systemic and build up in fat. Progesterone cream builds in fat; alcohol-based Estrogel does not. In fact, rubbing it on a fat area helps it last through 24 hours. Val From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of Janet AVal,I've not thought of vaginal P as an alternative. Why would that be different? If P cream brings back my hot flashes then would vaginal P not do the same thing? I see a doctor who diagnoses through taking your pulse. While he is taking the pulse he places substances near your ear and sees what the pulse reaction is. It is similar to muscle testing. I brought my P cream there yesterday along with some other things and the P cream came up as problematic....just another confirmation.janet To: rhythmicliving Janet, progesterone cream fails to protect the uterus in 32% of users. Why not vaginal P? I think progesterone cream is one of the great assaults foisted on women. Val From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of Janet AVal,I use the 1 pump of estrogel every day and strive to tolerate a 10 day course each month of the wiley compounded P that I'd ordered ions ago but never went on the protocol. I use just one line, 20mg.Janet To: rhythmicliving Janet, do you use estradiol throughout 12 days of Prometrium? I do. Val From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of Janet AGael, Do you build up a lining just using the estrogen? I have progesterone problems too and can't tolerate it. I've been taking E for about 5 years on/off, mostly on. I have to take estrog en (just 1 pump of estrogel daily) or I am up all night flashing. I try to take P for 10 days or so but generally stop short of that since the P brings back the hot flashes at night. I've built up a lining when I wasn't even taking E and have built up one while taking it without P. Now I have yet another 9mm lining that my gyn is very unhappy about and this was built up while suffering through using the P for 10 days or so. Janet To: rhythmicliving@yahoogr oups.comI'm on the fence about it because of the terrible effect P has on me. My current bout of vertigo began two weeks ago when I applied the tiniest of doses of progesterone transdermally for only five days. The day I stopped, the vertigo began and has not abated. It's not very severe but it reminds me of the last time I used P before this, when the vertigo was so severe I could not get out of bed for days. I never want to go through that again. I have no idea why externally supplied P affects me in this way. I was never on Wiley and never OD'd on it so far as I know. I only did the five day trial recently because my P came back at .15 on a blood test for hormone levels. Also, after menopause our bodies do not naturally cycle, other than possibly in ways we don't understand and wouldn't know what to supplement for. This also gives me pause. I would not be using estrogen if it were not for the fact that I get vertigo and terrible hot flashes when I try to go off it. I don't seem to be able to do without it at this point. I have been on it for ten years, and have an ovarian cyst, and of course this all worries me greatly. Gael Everyone should " cycle " their hormones..even without a uterus. All sex hormones should be replaced in a cycle..JMHO.Terri

January 6, 2012

Janet, there are at least two of us here. I have/had Lyme, Babesia and Bartonella and have been on IV antibiotics for over 1.5 years. I was nearly at my end, trying to write final letters to my children. The abx has given me new life (while it destroyed my knee cartilage). I'm getting a new knee in February and will be able to again walk around the block. I truly believe Lyme destroyed my thyroid. I got sicker and sicker after a sudden onset in 1985. Looking back, I now realize it was my thyroid dying. At diagnosis, my antibodies were in the 800 range. They are now ZERO but I have no thyroid production. I think when Lyme bacteria invaded my body, my immune system mounted a massive antibody response. Unfortunately, antibodies destroyed my thyroid instead of destroying Lyme. Lyme deregulates all body systems. About sweats: It could likely be Babesia, not hormones. I tried for years to get my hormones " balanced " *snicker* It wasn't hormones, it was Lyme and co-infections. Still, they will pry my Estrogel out of my cold, dead hands. Val From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of Janet AHi Laurel, I deeply appreciate your take on 'scientific' methods. I have seen a plethora of western and alternative practitioners over the last 5 years after crashing at age 52 from a once vibrant healthy energetic individual to bearly functional. I know it is a stretch to view muscle testing or pulse taking as credible. What I have found is that the " alternative " practitioners I've seen provided a much needed perspective. One educated me about all the toxins I was exposed to, helped me with allergic reactions that were ballastic. I believe in my body's own wisdom. Many on this list can attest to their body's " knowing " The doctor I see who uses the pulse method is not my hormone doc, p er se. He diagnosed me with lyme, babesia and bartonella back in March. Acupuncture has used the pulse to diagnose for thousands of years. My " scientific " lyme blood test came back inconclusive, as they all are, but after being treated for these tick diseases I am a new person so very grateful for his treatment. I went to see him after I asked him what his thoughts were about Hashimoto's thyroid. He asked me why did I think my body was attacking my thyroid? I replied with all the " scientific medical research " theories. He said, " your immune system is acting appropriately and there is something there it wants to get rid of. I find it is most often lyme and/or other tick infections. " T hat was a totally different take on things and I figured I had nothing to lose and everything to gain by seeing him. As it turned out, after a few months on the homeopathics he prescribed, my thyroid antibodies are half of what they were and I feel like I have my life 80% back. In the estrogen/progesterone arena I am currently working with Chinese herbs to address my remaining night heat so I can sleep and get off the 1 pump of estrogel. I want to be off all hormones. Thanks again for your input.Janet To: rhythmicliving Hi Janet, I'm a bit concerned for you seeing a doc who is using this method for diagnosing your health. There's no science to support this method. It's a way to go, but don't confuse it with anything close to scientific. Science has a method and procedure which is used to get beyond our natural human predisposition to filter life through our beliefs. For this method we'd have to give some scientific explanation that makes this seem like a plausible option, then we'd have to set up some well designed studies, but the first requirement won't fly so there's no use going to the second. The placebo effect (several versions actually) is well documented and again it's an option to go with stories rather than science, but not one that is better than trying to align with what is coming from science and academic medicine. Here's a fascinating podcas t with a researcher in the field of placebo. http://www.brainsciencepodcast.com/bsp/neurobiology-of-placebos-with-fabrizio-benedetti-bsp-77.html Do you have other options for a hormone doc? Laurel Val,I've not thought of vaginal P as an alternative. Why would that be different? If P cream brings back my hot flashes then would vaginal P not do the same thing? I see a doctor who diagnoses through taking y our pulse. While he is taking the pulse he places substances near your ear and sees what the pulse reaction is. It is similar to muscle testing. I brought my P cream there yesterday along with some other things and the P cream came up as problematic....just another confirmation.janet To: rhythmicliving < div>Janet, progesterone cream fails to protect the uterus in 32% of users. Why not vaginal P? I think progesterone cream is one of the great assaults foisted on women.

January 6, 2012

Janet,I am now seeing Dr. Schwarzbein in Santa Barbara. She has helped me get completely off the Wiley Protocol and is helping me get my body healthy and balanced.I am using a compounded vaginal P suppository, 5mg., in a olive oil base 2x a day from day 18-28. I am also cycling (3) Vivelle-Dot patches 2x a week and taking a .125 compounded estradiol troche 2x a day. Since the Wiley Protocol is so progesterone dominant I have a lot of progesterone stored in the fat tissues in my inner thighs. This seems to be expelled "whenever" and can block the estradiol. This process is slow, scary, and frustrating, but we are making progress. I thank God for her everyday! To answer your questions it seems progesterone creams get stored in fat tissues and can

stay there until they decide to dislodge. Therefore, you can't regulate your progesterone useeffectively and by the time you test the level, it could be totally different in your body by the time you get the results. It seems the vaginal P suppository doesn't get storedin your body and doesn't pass through your organs. I am still taking a very low dose because of P intolerance and the extra P that is being released "whenever" that is blockingmy estradiol. I have just had a pap smear, yearly physical, mammograms and breast ultrasound and everything was good. The next step is to get another uterine ultrasoundto see if my lining thickness is decreasing. I still don't feel great, but I feel like I am getting better and I feel safe and very taken cared of by my new doctor. P blocks estrogen. Therefore, you have to have enough estradiol to build a lining and only enough P to slough off the lining to have a

menstrual period, but not enoughto starve your body of the estrogen it needs while taking it. It's a fine balance. Dr. Schwarzbein teaches that you only replace what you have lost. You can get valuableinformation by visiting her website or phoning her office. She has a series of DVDs that explain all her teaching on hormone replacement. It's brilliant and worth investigating. She also has written 3 books that are also brilliant. I wish I had known her when I first needed something. If you haven't been on the WP protocol you areblessed. Getting balanced will probably be a lot easier and safer. If you want to call me, my phone number is . Hope this helps.Blessings, Sheree MichelsTo: rhythmicliving Sent: Thu, January 5, 2012 3:59:42 PMSubject: RE: Re: Induced Period vs No Period Post Menopause

Val,

I've not thought of vaginal P as an alternative. Why would that be different? If P cream brings back my hot flashes then would vaginal P not do the same thing?

I see a doctor who diagnoses through taking your pulse. While he is taking the pulse he places substances near your ear and sees what the pulse reaction is. It is similar to muscle testing.

I brought my P cream there yesterday along with some other things and the P cream came up as problematic....just another confirmation.

janet

To: rhythmicliving From: val@...Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 13:34:30 -0700Subject: RE: Re: Induced Period vs No Period Post Menopause

Janet, progesterone cream fails to protect the uterus in 32% of users. Why not vaginal P? I think progesterone cream is one of the great assaults foisted on women.

Val

From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of Janet A

Val,I use the 1 pump of estrogel every day and strive to tolerate a 10 day course each month of the wiley compounded P that I'd ordered ions ago but never went on the protocol. I use just one line, 20mg.Janet

To: rhythmicliving

Janet, do you use estradiol throughout 12 days of Prometrium? I do.

Val

From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of Janet A

Gael, Do you build up a lining just using the estrogen? I have progesterone problems too and can't tolerate it. I've been taking E for about 5 years on/off, mostly on. I have to take estrog en (just 1 pump of estrogel daily) or I am up all night flashing. I try to take P for 10 days or so but generally stop short of that since the P brings back the hot flashes at night. I've built up a lining when I wasn't even taking E and have built up one while taking it without P. Now I have yet another 9mm lining that my gyn is very unhappy about and this was built up while suffering through using the P for 10 days or so. Janet

To: rhythmicliving@yahoogr oups.com

I'm on the fence about it because of the terrible effect P has on me. My current bout of vertigo began two weeks ago when I applied the tiniest of doses of progesterone transdermally for only five days. The day I stopped, the vertigo began and has not abated. It's not very severe but it reminds me of the last time I used P before this, when the vertigo was so severe I could not get out of bed for days. I never want to go through that again. I have no idea why externally supplied P affects me in this way. I was never on Wiley and never OD'd on it so far as I know. I only did the five day trial recently because my P came back at .15 on a blood test for hormone levels.

Also, after menopause our bodies do not naturally cycle, other than possibly in ways we don't understand and wouldn't know what to supplement for. This also gives me pause. I would not be using estrogen if it were not for the fact that I get vertigo and terrible hot flashes when I try to go off it. I don't seem to be able to do without it at this point. I have been on it for ten years, and have an ovarian cyst, and of course this all worries me greatly.

Gael

Everyone should "cycle" their hormones..even without a uterus. All sex hormones should be replaced in a cycle..JMHO.

Terri

January 6, 2012

Janet, My Dr is an "holistic" Dr..so he too looks "for the Zebras", which I like. On the one hand, you've had some infection, on the other hand, it really sounds like you need Estrogen..which is why you're getting the hot flashes. When your sex hormones are gone, you can live, but not very well. Losing your sex hormones now takes you to another level..your major hormones(Thyroid, insulin, cortisol, etc)will be taking a beating, and when THEY'RE gone, you'll die. We need ALL of our hormones to live a healthy, active life. I know you've said that you want to be off all hormones, but maybe you just have not found what works for YOUR body yet?Take

Care,Terri To: rhythmicliving Sent: Friday, January 6, 2012 11:16 AM Subject: RE: Re: Induced Period vs No Period Post Menopause

Hi Laurel, I deeply appreciate your take on 'scientific' methods. I have seen a plethora of western and alternative practitioners over the last 5 years after crashing at age 52 from a once vibrant healthy energetic individual to bearly functional. I know it is a stretch to view muscle testing or pulse taking as credible. What I have found is that the "alternative" practitioners I've seen provided a much needed perspective. One educated me about all the toxins I was exposed to, helped me with allergic reactions that were ballastic. I believe in my body's own wisdom. Many on this list can attest to their body's "knowing" The doctor I see who uses the pulse method is

not my hormone doc, per se. He diagnosed me with lyme, babesia and bartonella back in March. Acupuncture has used the pulse to diagnose for thousands of years. My "scientific" lyme blood test came back inconclusive, as they all are, but after being treated for these tick diseases I am a new person so very grateful for his treatment. I went to see him after I asked him what his thoughts were about Hashimoto's thyroid. He asked me why did I think my body was attacking my thyroid? I replied with all the "scientific medical research" theories. He said, "your immune system is acting appropriately and there is something there it wants to get rid of. I find it is most often lyme and/or other tick infections." That was a totally different take on things and I figured I had nothing to lose and everything to gain by seeing him. As it turned out, after a few months on the homeopathics he prescribed, my thyroid antibodies are half of what they were and I feel like I have my life 80% back. In the estrogen/progesterone arena I am currently working with Chinese herbs to address my remaining night heat so I can sleep and get off the 1 pump of estrogel. I want to be off all hormones. Thanks again for your input.Janet To: rhythmicliving From: laurel@...Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 23:19:58 -0800Subject: Re: Re: Induced Period vs No Period Post Menopause

Hi Janet, I'm a bit concerned for you seeing a doc who is using this method for diagnosing your health. There's no science to support this method. It's a way to go, but don't confuse it with anything close to scientific. Science has a method and procedure which is used to get beyond our natural human predisposition to filter life through our beliefs. For this method we'd have to give some scientific explanation that makes this seem like a plausible option, then we'd have to set up some well designed studies, but the first requirement won't fly so there's no use going to the second. The placebo effect (several versions actually) is well documented and again it's an option to go with stories rather than science, but not one that is better than trying to align with what is coming from science and academic medicine.

Here's a fascinating podcast with a researcher in the field of placebo. http://www.brainsciencepodcast.com/bsp/neurobiology-of-placebos-with-fabrizio-benedetti-bsp-77.html Do you have other options for a hormone doc? LaurelVal,I've not thought of vaginal P as an alternative. Why would that be different? If P cream brings back my hot flashes then would vaginal P not do the same thing? I see a doctor who diagnoses through taking your pulse.

While he is taking the pulse he places substances near your ear and sees what the pulse reaction is. It is similar to muscle testing. I brought my P cream there yesterday along with some other things and the P cream came up as problematic....just another confirmation.janet To: rhythmicliving From: val@...Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 13:34:30 -0700Subject: RE: Re: Induced Period vs No Period Post MenopauseJanet, progesterone cream fails to protect the uterus in 32% of users. Why not vaginal P? I think progesterone cream is one of the great assaults foisted on women. Val From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of Janet AVal,I use the 1 pump of estrogel every day and strive to tolerate a 10 day course each month of the wiley compounded P that I'd

ordered ions ago but never went on the protocol. I use just one line, 20mg.Janet To: rhythmicliving Janet, do you use estradiol throughout 12 days of Prometrium? I do. Val From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of Janet AGael, Do you build up a lining just using the estrogen? I have progesterone problems too and can't tolerate it. I've been taking E for about 5 years on/off, mostly on. I have to take estrog en (just 1 pump of estrogel daily) or I am up all night flashing. I try to take P for 10 days or so but generally stop short of that since the P brings back the hot flashes at night. I've built up a lining when I wasn't even taking E and have built up one while taking it without P. Now I have yet another 9mm lining that my gyn is very unhappy about and this was built up while suffering through using the P for 10 days or so. Janet To: rhythmicliving@yahoogr oups.comI'm on the fence about it because of the terrible effect P has on me. My current bout of vertigo began two weeks ago when I applied the tiniest of doses of progesterone transdermally for only five days. The day I stopped, the vertigo began and has not abated. It's not very severe but it reminds me of the last time I used P before this, when the vertigo

was so severe I could not get out of bed for days. I never want to go through that again. I have no idea why externally supplied P affects me in this way. I was never on Wiley and never OD'd on it so far as I know. I only did the five day trial recently because my P came back at .15 on a blood test for hormone levels. Also, after menopause our bodies do not naturally cycle, other than possibly in ways we don't understand and wouldn't know what to supplement for. This also gives me pause. I would not be using estrogen if it were not for the fact that I get vertigo and terrible hot flashes when I

try to go off it. I don't seem to be able to do without it at this point. I have been on it for ten years, and have an ovarian cyst, and of course this all worries me greatly. Gael Everyone should "cycle" their hormones..even without a uterus. All sex hormones should be replaced in a cycle..JMHO.Terri

January 6, 2012

Val,I recall your story from a while back. So glad to know you are feeling so much better. Lyme is destroying many lives. I was quite surprised by this doctor's theory of lyme being the problem with my thyroid. I've thought about the babesia causing my night heat but do get relief from my 1 pump of estrogel. I also wake vibrating, a very strange phenomena. We don't know how and where these infections do their damage. My pondering is the why. Why are we getting these infections? Why are our immune systems not able to keep them in check.Janet To: rhythmicliving From: val@...Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 15:32:38 -0700Subject: RE: Re: Induced Period vs No Period Post Menopause

Janet, there are at least two of us here. I have/had Lyme, Babesia and Bartonella and have been on IV antibiotics for over 1.5 years. I was nearly at my end, trying to write final letters to my children. The abx has given me new life (while it destroyed my knee cartilage). I'm getting a new knee in February and will be able to again walk around the block. I truly believe Lyme destroyed my thyroid. I got sicker and sicker after a sudden onset in 1985. Looking back, I now realize it was my thyroid dying. At diagnosis, my antibodies were in the 800 range. They are now ZERO but I have no thyroid production. I think when Lyme bacteria invaded my body, my immune system mounted a massive antibody response. Unfortunately, antibodies destroyed my thyroid instead of destroying Lyme. Lyme deregulates all body systems. About sweats: It could likely be Babesia, not hormones. I tried for years to get my hormones "balanced" *snicker* It wasn't hormones, it was Lyme and co-infections. Still, they will pry my Estrogel out of my cold, dead hands. Val From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of Janet AHi Laurel, I deeply appreciate your take on 'scientific' methods. I have seen a plethora of western and alternative practitioners over the last 5 years after crashing at age 52 from a once vibrant healthy energetic individual to bearly functional. I know it is a stretch to view muscle testing or pulse taking as credible. What I have found is that the "alternative" practitioners I've seen provided a much needed perspective. One educated me about all the toxins I was exposed to, helped me with allergic reactions that were ballastic. I believe in my body's own wisdom. Many on this list can attest to their body's "knowing" The doctor I see who uses the pulse method is not my hormone doc, p er se. He diagnosed me with lyme, babesia and bartonella back in March. Acupuncture has used the pulse to diagnose for thousands of years. My "scientific" lyme blood test came back inconclusive, as they all are, but after being treated for these tick diseases I am a new person so very grateful for his treatment. I went to see him after I asked him what his thoughts were about Hashimoto's thyroid. He asked me why did I think my body was attacking my thyroid? I replied with all the "scientific medical research" theories. He said, "your immune system is acting appropriately and there is something there it wants to get rid of. I find it is most often lyme and/or other tick infections." T hat was a totally different take on things and I figured I had nothing to lose and everything to gain by seeing him. As it turned out, after a few months on the homeopathics he prescribed, my thyroid antibodies are half of what they were and I feel like I have my life 80% back. In the estrogen/progesterone arena I am currently working with Chinese herbs to address my remaining night heat so I can sleep and get off the 1 pump of estrogel. I want to be off all hormones. Thanks again for your input.Janet To: rhythmicliving Hi Janet, I'm a bit concerned for you seeing a doc who is using this method for diagnosing your health. There's no science to support this method. It's a way to go, but don't confuse it with anything close to scientific. Science has a method and procedure which is used to get beyond our natural human predisposition to filter life through our beliefs. For this method we'd have to give some scientific explanation that makes this seem like a plausible option, then we'd have to set up some well designed studies, but the first requirement won't fly so there's no use going to the second. The placebo effect (several versions actually) is well documented and again it's an option to go with stories rather than science, but not one that is better than trying to align with what is coming from science and academic medicine. Here's a fascinating podcas t with a researcher in the field of placebo. http://www.brainsciencepodcast.com/bsp/neurobiology-of-placebos-with-fabrizio-benedetti-bsp-77.html Do you have other options for a hormone doc? Laurel Val,I've not thought of vaginal P as an alternative. Why would that be different? If P cream brings back my hot flashes then would vaginal P not do the same thing? I see a doctor who diagnoses through taking y our pulse. While he is taking the pulse he places substances near your ear and sees what the pulse reaction is. It is similar to muscle testing. I brought my P cream there yesterday along with some other things and the P cream came up as problematic....just another confirmation.janet To: rhythmicliving < div>Janet, progesterone cream fails to protect the uterus in 32% of users. Why not vaginal P? I think progesterone cream is one of the great assaults foisted on women.

January 6, 2012

Sheree, Thanks so much for your response and information. I believe I have one of Schwarzbein's books somewhere in my collection of thyroid/adrenal/menopausal stuff. This vaginal P sounds like it might be worth investigating for my situation. My gyn wants to do an endometrial biopsy to make sure all is well with this new 9mm lining. I've already had 2 D & Cs over the last 3.5 years for built up linings. I have a $5,000 deductible health insurance so they cost me out of pocket. I need to avoid the built up for health and financial reasons ; ) Glad you are doing well working with Schwarzbein. What do you mean by cycling 3 vivelle patches per week? I used to do two/week. Didn't like the patch though since I felt it wasn't a steady enough dosage at 2X/week. You also take estrodiol troches? Why the two delivery systems?janet To: rhythmicliving From: smichels7@...Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 15:43:31 -0800Subject: Re: Re: Induced Period vs No Period Post Menopause

Janet,I am now seeing Dr. Schwarzbein in Santa Barbara. She has helped me get completely off the Wiley Protocol and is helping me get my body healthy and balanced.I am using a compounded vaginal P suppository, 5mg., in a olive oil base 2x a day from day 18-28. I am also cycling (3) Vivelle-Dot patches 2x a week and taking a .125 compounded estradiol troche 2x a day. Since the Wiley Protocol is so progesterone dominant I have a lot of progesterone stored in the fat tissues in my inner thighs. This seems to be expelled "whenever" and can block the estradiol. This process is slow, scary, and frustrating, but we are making progress. I thank God for her everyday! To answer your questions it seems progesterone creams get stored in fat tissues and can

stay there until they decide to dislodge. Therefore, you can't regulate your progesterone useeffectively and by the time you test the level, it could be totally different in your body by the time you get the results. It seems the vaginal P suppository doesn't get storedin your body and doesn't pass through your organs. I am still taking a very low dose because of P intolerance and the extra P that is being released "whenever" that is blockingmy estradiol. I have just had a pap smear, yearly physical, mammograms and breast ultrasound and everything was good. The next step is to get another uterine ultrasoundto see if my lining thickness is decreasing. I still don't feel great, but I feel like I am getting better and I feel safe and very taken cared of by my new doctor. P blocks estrogen. Therefore, you have to have enough estradiol to build a lining and only enough P to slough off the lining to have a

menstrual period, but not enoughto starve your body of the estrogen it needs while taking it. It's a fine balance. Dr. Schwarzbein teaches that you only replace what you have lost. You can get valuableinformation by visiting her website or phoning her office. She has a series of DVDs that explain all her teaching on hormone replacement. It's brilliant and worth investigating. She also has written 3 books that are also brilliant. I wish I had known her when I first needed something. If you haven't been on the WP protocol you areblessed. Getting balanced will probably be a lot easier and safer. If you want to call me, my phone number is . Hope this helps.Blessings, Sheree MichelsTo: rhythmicliving Sent: Thu, January 5, 2012 3:59:42 PMSubject: RE: Re: Induced Period vs No Period Post Menopause

Val,

I've not thought of vaginal P as an alternative. Why would that be different? If P cream brings back my hot flashes then would vaginal P not do the same thing?

I see a doctor who diagnoses through taking your pulse. While he is taking the pulse he places substances near your ear and sees what the pulse reaction is. It is similar to muscle testing.

I brought my P cream there yesterday along with some other things and the P cream came up as problematic....just another confirmation.

janet

To: rhythmicliving From: val@...Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 13:34:30 -0700Subject: RE: Re: Induced Period vs No Period Post Menopause

Janet, progesterone cream fails to protect the uterus in 32% of users. Why not vaginal P? I think progesterone cream is one of the great assaults foisted on women.

Val

From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of Janet A

Val,I use the 1 pump of estrogel every day and strive to tolerate a 10 day course each month of the wiley compounded P that I'd ordered ions ago but never went on the protocol. I use just one line, 20mg.Janet

To: rhythmicliving

Janet, do you use estradiol throughout 12 days of Prometrium? I do.

Val

From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of Janet A

Gael, Do you build up a lining just using the estrogen? I have progesterone problems too and can't tolerate it. I've been taking E for about 5 years on/off, mostly on. I have to take estrog en (just 1 pump of estrogel daily) or I am up all night flashing. I try to take P for 10 days or so but generally stop short of that since the P brings back the hot flashes at night. I've built up a lining when I wasn't even taking E and have built up one while taking it without P. Now I have yet another 9mm lining that my gyn is very unhappy about and this was built up while suffering through using the P for 10 days or so. Janet

To: rhythmicliving@yahoogr oups.com

I'm on the fence about it because of the terrible effect P has on me. My current bout of vertigo began two weeks ago when I applied the tiniest of doses of progesterone transdermally for only five days. The day I stopped, the vertigo began and has not abated. It's not very severe but it reminds me of the last time I used P before this, when the vertigo was so severe I could not get out of bed for days. I never want to go through that again. I have no idea why externally supplied P affects me in this way. I was never on Wiley and never OD'd on it so far as I know. I only did the five day trial recently because my P came back at .15 on a blood test for hormone levels.

Also, after menopause our bodies do not naturally cycle, other than possibly in ways we don't understand and wouldn't know what to supplement for. This also gives me pause. I would not be using estrogen if it were not for the fact that I get vertigo and terrible hot flashes when I try to go off it. I don't seem to be able to do without it at this point. I have been on it for ten years, and have an ovarian cyst, and of course this all worries me greatly.

Gael

Everyone should "cycle" their hormones..even without a uterus. All sex hormones should be replaced in a cycle..JMHO.

Terri

January 6, 2012

Terri, Ha, looking for the Zebras, I like that !Yes, when we're out of hormones, we're gonzo ! If I knew that I could take estrogen without any P and that would be ok and healthy for me I'd do it. My concern is, of course, all the present dogma around needing that P to "protect" the uterus,,,blah blah! One pump of estrogel isn't a lot of estradiol and I've built up a lining when I wasn't taking any estrogen. When I asked my gyn why that would be she didn't have much of a response except to say "maybe your uterus is estrogen sensitive." The pump says 2-4 are a typical dose so I'm on the low end.janet To: rhythmicliving From: terri4320@...Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 16:05:14 -0800Subject: Re: Re: Induced Period vs No Period Post Menopause