Guest guest Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 Hey Sam,Wanted to let you know that last year I did a 4X cortisol saliva test with ZRT and Diagnostechs on the same day to see what, if any differences, there would be.I didn't test the sex hormones, just the cortisol. The adrenal group had reported problems with Diagnostech's cortisol as well as the other levels. The results were quite similar for cortisol between the two.I had reported this to the adrenal group back then.Janetwww.womensacupuncture.net To: rhythmicliving From: k9gang@...Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 09:03:26 -0800Subject: Saliva testing Diagnostechs? They could be the problem. I do not trust their results, and we stopped recommending them in the thyroidless group. The adrenal/sex hormone saliva testing results from them, that I have gone over (thyroidless group), seem to routinely be unusually high (sometimes impossibly high). Those that retested via ZRT, had results that were more in tune with how they were feeling. Sam ===== > Just my thoughts, but I have found that saliva testing shows excess of > EDVERYTHING, including T...mine was so off the charts with NO explanation > for it - I had stopped Wiley years earlier- , that I am beginnning to > believe saliva is unreliable and will never test female hormones (post > meno panel, Daignostechs)with it again > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 I use ZRT and still will not trust the sex hormones for me with the saliva testing. I do trust the Thyroid and the Adrenal saliva testing though. Liz Diagnostechs? They could be the problem. I do not trust their results, and we stopped recommending them in the thyroidless group. The adrenal/sex hormone saliva testing results from them, that I have gone over (thyroidless group), seem to routinely be unusually high (sometimes impossibly high). Those that retested via ZRT, had results that were more in tune with how they were feeling. Sam ===== > Just my thoughts, but I have found that saliva testing shows excess of > EDVERYTHING, including T...mine was so off the charts with NO explanation > for it - I had stopped Wiley years earlier- , that I am beginnning to > believe saliva is unreliable and will never test female hormones (post > meno panel, Daignostechs)with it again > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2012 Report Share Posted April 7, 2012 Laurie, I am still learning alot of this myself, but having been on the combined continuous dosing for the last 2-3 years, I found that it is not the way to go if you have blood sugar issues. This is a recent " menopause minute " by Dr. Schwarzbein that was helpful to me. http://menopausepower.com/continuous_combined_therapy. Last month I was way overdosed on P, and ended up with fasting blood sugars in the full diabetes range. Reading the archives here was helpful. Personally, I feel better with a decent amount of estrogen in my system and I think offsetting it with P will help. Deb in MI > > Hi...I feel like I'm going in circles. Went to see a new NP last month and she wanted me to do a saliva test as that is her preferred way to test hormones. I've read that it's not the most accurate but I did it anyway as it's getting so expensive to doc hop which I feel like I've been doing alot lately. She put me on Prometrium and I'm doing well on it so far, which really surprised me. She wants me to take it continuously which I'm unsure about. I'm guessing that cyclically would be better. Well, my saliva results came back and we discussed them today. I'm on a Bi-est cream right now (through Uzzi) and these were my results: > > Estradiol: >99 (2-10) > Estriol: >100 (14-38) > Estrone: 64 (38-68) > Progesterone: 73 (she says should be 300) > Testosterone: 19 (10-38) > DHEA: 1 (3-10) > > So, now she wants to put me on the Vivelle Dot and wean me down on the estrogen over about 2-3 months time....because she says I have too much estrogen in my tissues. > > I haven't had serum testing since January at which time my estrogen was a '19.' Progesterone and testosterone both showed in the negative. > > She also wants me to go for an endometrial biopsy because my ultrasound showed the lining to be at around 7mm. 2 other doctors who saw the results, including Uzzi, didnt' think that was necessary. I doubt she will continue to see me if I don't do it. > > Does her plan to wean me down on estrogen sound wacky? She wants to eventually get me on a sublingual estrogen because she doesn't want me to take it transdermally or orally. > > Oh, on top of all that....after I started the Prometrium I began to shed my lining and have had a headache for about a good week. Wouldn't that headache be low estrogen? > > I do have Oestrogel to try but I haven't given it a go yet because I was flu and then I decided to wait until I got the saliva test results. I was curious to see what the NP's plan would be. > > Thanks so much for your input. I feel like my head is spinning. I just want to do the right thing for a change. lol.... > > Laurie > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2012 Report Share Posted April 7, 2012 Hi Deb, I order all the books and I read as much as I can but I swear that I feel like the more I know...the less I know...lol. I'm also overwhelmed with a bunch of life stress right now (who isn't?) and find it hard to concentrate. I was just so hoping that I would finally find a doctor who could tell me what to do for a change. I am glad that I am able to treat myself, etc...but sometimes you just want someone to lead {{big sigh}}. I went in yesterday and this NP gave me a bunch of Vivelle Dot samples to start weaning. I just don't feel like that is the right way to go and so I guess I'll have to jump ship again. Also, the fact that I'm on HC still which suppresses tells me that I shouldn't be weaning as low as she wants me to go. I've had a horrible headache since starting the Prometrium which sort of tells me that my E is low now? I also have a difficult time feeling like saliva testing is the most accurate way to test and base treatment which is her M.O. The most positive thing that came out of my meeting with her is that she got me to finally try the Prometrium and I'm doing okay on it so I'm glad about that because I know I needed it. I'll keep searching for someone new at least to write the scripts. It just gets so darned expensive to pay for these out of pocket docs. It's nuts. I will keep digging into the archives and learning. Thank you for the link! I did purchase this kit from Dr. S but haven't dug into it yet. I've been looking at the Vliet book recently. I really appreciate your response and I'm glad you are finally figuring out what works for you. I know how proactive you are Thanks so much! Laurie > > > > Hi...I feel like I'm going in circles. Went to see a new NP last month and she wanted me to do a saliva test as that is her preferred way to test hormones. I've read that it's not the most accurate but I did it anyway as it's getting so expensive to doc hop which I feel like I've been doing alot lately. She put me on Prometrium and I'm doing well on it so far, which really surprised me. She wants me to take it continuously which I'm unsure about. I'm guessing that cyclically would be better. Well, my saliva results came back and we discussed them today. I'm on a Bi-est cream right now (through Uzzi) and these were my results: > > > > Estradiol: >99 (2-10) > > Estriol: >100 (14-38) > > Estrone: 64 (38-68) > > Progesterone: 73 (she says should be 300) > > Testosterone: 19 (10-38) > > DHEA: 1 (3-10) > > > > So, now she wants to put me on the Vivelle Dot and wean me down on the estrogen over about 2-3 months time....because she says I have too much estrogen in my tissues. > > > > I haven't had serum testing since January at which time my estrogen was a '19.' Progesterone and testosterone both showed in the negative. > > > > She also wants me to go for an endometrial biopsy because my ultrasound showed the lining to be at around 7mm. 2 other doctors who saw the results, including Uzzi, didnt' think that was necessary. I doubt she will continue to see me if I don't do it. > > > > Does her plan to wean me down on estrogen sound wacky? She wants to eventually get me on a sublingual estrogen because she doesn't want me to take it transdermally or orally. > > > > Oh, on top of all that....after I started the Prometrium I began to shed my lining and have had a headache for about a good week. Wouldn't that headache be low estrogen? > > > > I do have Oestrogel to try but I haven't given it a go yet because I was flu and then I decided to wait until I got the saliva test results. I was curious to see what the NP's plan would be. > > > > Thanks so much for your input. I feel like my head is spinning. I just want to do the right thing for a change. lol.... > > > > Laurie > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2012 Report Share Posted April 8, 2012 Laurie, By far the best information I've gotten is from Larrian Gillespie, MD. www.hormonediva.com Her advice is pretty much like Dr. Vliet's. Per her advice, I've been on Estrogel for several years. She likes to see a shed every 3 - 4 months. That didn't work for me as the sheds didn't come and I had to have a D & C. For a year, I did well cycling. Then I went on 100 mg Prometrium, daily. After a year of that, my stripe was 10.7 and my fasting blood glucose was getting up there. My doc recommended the progestin IUD but it costs $1,000 and has a high drop out rate. I'm afraid of the constant progestin dose, too, especially with blood sugar. Instead, I've been cycling Prometrium 200 x 6 days, 300 x 3 days, 200 x 1 day. That is working well for me. My blood sugar is back well within normal bands. For a while, I took sublingual tri-est and 100 mg compounded progesterone/day. I started bleeding too often so the pharmacist upped the P to 200 mg/day. Then I bled constantly. Blood tests showed estradiol <15 and progesterone way high. I was sooo overdosed on progesterone and sooo underdosed on estradiol. My opinion now is that compounded E & P are pretty much a fraud. Estrogel and the patches are bioidentical and prometrium is RX bioidentical. You can get vaginal progesterone from European pharmacies. Gillespie has a good expose' on compoundeds http://www.menopausediet.com/when-are-bio-identical-hormones-worth-3500/ Does anyone know if there is any research on sublingual bi-est and tri-est? I think the whole " estrogen dominant " stuff is sheer fraud. That's a holdover from Dr. Lee, and his results were never able to be duplicated in bona fide research. I also think saliva tests for hormones are not good. I used to have some research on it but can't remember where I saw it. I think cortisol saliva is pretty accurate but not E & P. I know transdermal P is unduly excreted in the saliva. If I was going to depend on saliva tests, I'd certainly find some research basis for them. How much Prometrium are you on? Are you full menopausal? You may have told us but I've missed a lot of email lately. BTW, for years, I blamed my ailments on thyroid and hormones. I belonged to every thyroid and hormone list I could find. In retrospect, much of the thyroid information was incorrect and sometimes, even dangerous. After years, I finally tested positive for Lyme disease. My hormones and thyroid are fine on T4, T3, Estrogel and Prometrium. Val -----Original Message----- > > Hi...I feel like I'm going in circles. Went to see a new NP last month and she wanted me to do a saliva test as that is her preferred way to test hormones. I've read that it's not the most accurate but I did it anyway as it's getting so expensive to doc hop which I feel like I've been doing alot lately. She put me on Prometrium and I'm doing well on it so far, which really surprised me. She wants me to take it continuously which I'm unsure about. I'm guessing that cyclically would be better. Well, my saliva results came back and we discussed them today. I'm on a Bi-est cream right now (through Uzzi) and these were my results: > > Estradiol: >99 (2-10) > Estriol: >100 (14-38) > Estrone: 64 (38-68) > Progesterone: 73 (she says should be 300) > Testosterone: 19 (10-38) > DHEA: 1 (3-10) > > So, now she wants to put me on the Vivelle Dot and wean me down on the estrogen over about 2-3 months time....because she says I have too much estrogen in my tissues. > > I haven't had serum testing since January at which time my estrogen was a '19.' Progesterone and testosterone both showed in the negative. > > She also wants me to go for an endometrial biopsy because my ultrasound showed the lining to be at around 7mm. 2 other doctors who saw the results, including Uzzi, didnt' think that was necessary. I doubt she will continue to see me if I don't do it. > > Does her plan to wean me down on estrogen sound wacky? She wants to eventually get me on a sublingual estrogen because she doesn't want me to take it transdermally or orally. > > Oh, on top of all that....after I started the Prometrium I began to shed my lining and have had a headache for about a good week. Wouldn't that headache be low estrogen? > > I do have Oestrogel to try but I haven't given it a go yet because I was flu and then I decided to wait until I got the saliva test results. I was curious to see what the NP's plan would be. > > Thanks so much for your input. I feel like my head is spinning. I just want to do the right thing for a change. lol.... > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2012 Report Share Posted April 9, 2012 Hi Val: Hope you don't mind the following questions. I'm searching for the right hormonal balance. I'm 55 and have had 2 periods in the past year. Big stuggle for the past 9 months has been anxiety/depression/anxiety. Sounds like low estradiol after reading Vliet's books. Can you tell me how much Estrogel you use along with your 10 days of prometrium? Is the prometrium oral? I have heard you can use it vaginally -- do you know if that's true? Dr. Vliet refers to a vaginal gel called Procheive -- sounds like something I'd like to try. Have you heard of it? Regarding compounded bioidenticals, one reason you may have problems with bi-est and tri-est is that they only contains a small percentage of estradiol -- most of the estrogen in them is estriol which Vliet says isn't what the body needs. So I think that compounded bioidenticals aren't a fraud, but instead those 2 forms simply don't give us the correct amount of estradiol. You can get compounded estradiol instead of the bi-est and tri-est. Thanks for any answers you can give -- this hormone thing is surely a puzzle! Sue > > > > Hi...I feel like I'm going in circles. Went to see a new NP last month and > she wanted me to do a saliva test as that is her preferred way to test > hormones. I've read that it's not the most accurate but I did it anyway as > it's getting so expensive to doc hop which I feel like I've been doing alot > lately. She put me on Prometrium and I'm doing well on it so far, which > really surprised me. She wants me to take it continuously which I'm unsure > about. I'm guessing that cyclically would be better. Well, my saliva > results came back and we discussed them today. I'm on a Bi-est cream right > now (through Uzzi) and these were my results: > > > > Estradiol: >99 (2-10) > > Estriol: >100 (14-38) > > Estrone: 64 (38-68) > > Progesterone: 73 (she says should be 300) > > Testosterone: 19 (10-38) > > DHEA: 1 (3-10) > > > > So, now she wants to put me on the Vivelle Dot and wean me down on the > estrogen over about 2-3 months time....because she says I have too much > estrogen in my tissues. > > > > I haven't had serum testing since January at which time my estrogen was a > '19.' Progesterone and testosterone both showed in the negative. > > > > She also wants me to go for an endometrial biopsy because my ultrasound > showed the lining to be at around 7mm. 2 other doctors who saw the results, > including Uzzi, didnt' think that was necessary. I doubt she will continue > to see me if I don't do it. > > > > Does her plan to wean me down on estrogen sound wacky? She wants to > eventually get me on a sublingual estrogen because she doesn't want me to > take it transdermally or orally. > > > > Oh, on top of all that....after I started the Prometrium I began to shed > my lining and have had a headache for about a good week. Wouldn't that > headache be low estrogen? > > > > I do have Oestrogel to try but I haven't given it a go yet because I was > flu and then I decided to wait until I got the saliva test results. I was > curious to see what the NP's plan would be. > > > > Thanks so much for your input. I feel like my head is spinning. I just > want to do the right thing for a change. lol.... > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2012 Report Share Posted April 9, 2012 a Saliva test will most likely show if you are overloaded on P - so I think you can take from these results that you are not overloaded...if you do not want a monthly shed, then you do not need to cycle. If you want a monthly bleed, take the P only the last 10-12 days of your month...stopping the P should bring on the period if you have had enough estrogen to create a lining. I feel that estradiol is best, rather than bi-est or tri-est - I used all three for at least a year at some point The small does of Prometrium daily will only serve as a counter balance to your E. If you are doing okay on the daily P then I would keep taking it. I don't like when saliva testing indicates something different than yu are feeling. I also believe that saliva results will show differently depending on which lab is used and what time of month and who knows what other variables..in other words, I gues I do not see anything that makes me believe they are uniform or always accurate. Your E's are high by these results - how long have you been using any extra E?? When you first go into menopause your own estrogen can be high or spike...so again, it begs the question - how accurate a picture are you getting from this test? > > Hi...I feel like I'm going in circles. Went to see a new NP last month and she wanted me to do a saliva test as that is her preferred way to test hormones. I've read that it's not the most accurate but I did it anyway as it's getting so expensive to doc hop which I feel like I've been doing alot lately. She put me on Prometrium and I'm doing well on it so far, which really surprised me. She wants me to take it continuously which I'm unsure about. I'm guessing that cyclically would be better. Well, my saliva results came back and we discussed them today. I'm on a Bi-est cream right now (through Uzzi) and these were my results: > > Estradiol: >99 (2-10) > Estriol: >100 (14-38) > Estrone: 64 (38-68) > Progesterone: 73 (she says should be 300) > Testosterone: 19 (10-38) > DHEA: 1 (3-10) > > So, now she wants to put me on the Vivelle Dot and wean me down on the estrogen over about 2-3 months time....because she says I have too much estrogen in my tissues. > > I haven't had serum testing since January at which time my estrogen was a '19.' Progesterone and testosterone both showed in the negative. > > She also wants me to go for an endometrial biopsy because my ultrasound showed the lining to be at around 7mm. 2 other doctors who saw the results, including Uzzi, didnt' think that was necessary. I doubt she will continue to see me if I don't do it. > > Does her plan to wean me down on estrogen sound wacky? She wants to eventually get me on a sublingual estrogen because she doesn't want me to take it transdermally or orally. > > Oh, on top of all that....after I started the Prometrium I began to shed my lining and have had a headache for about a good week. Wouldn't that headache be low estrogen? > > I do have Oestrogel to try but I haven't given it a go yet because I was flu and then I decided to wait until I got the saliva test results. I was curious to see what the NP's plan would be. > > Thanks so much for your input. I feel like my head is spinning. I just want to do the right thing for a change. lol.... > > Laurie > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2012 Report Share Posted April 9, 2012 Hi Sue, I used to use 1.5 mg (a full stick or two pumps). Now I use 0.75 mg (1/2 stick) and do fine with it. I use Prometrium orally - 200 mg x 6 days, 300 mg x 3 days, 200 mg x 1 day. I use it for the first 10 days of the month. So far, that is producing a shed. Yes, you can use Prometrium vaginally but a 100 mg dose might be a lot. Crinone used to be available in 4% and 8% doses. Now, only 8% is available. I've heard you can use it every other day but I've never tried it. If compounded estrogen doesn't give us the correct amount of estradiol, proponents are still misleading us. Dr. Gillespie says the body converts estradiol to estriol and estrone as needed. Did you read the Gillespie page about $3,500 compounded hormones? She contends that there are limited conditions under which the large estradiol molecule can be delivered through a cream. Val Re: saliva testing Hi Val: Hope you don't mind the following questions. I'm searching for the right hormonal balance. I'm 55 and have had 2 periods in the past year. Big stuggle for the past 9 months has been anxiety/depression/anxiety. Sounds like low estradiol after reading Vliet's books. Can you tell me how much Estrogel you use along with your 10 days of prometrium? Is the prometrium oral? I have heard you can use it vaginally -- do you know if that's true? Dr. Vliet refers to a vaginal gel called Procheive -- sounds like something I'd like to try. Have you heard of it? Regarding compounded bioidenticals, one reason you may have problems with bi-est and tri-est is that they only contains a small percentage of estradiol -- most of the estrogen in them is estriol which Vliet says isn't what the body needs. So I think that compounded bioidenticals aren't a fraud, but instead those 2 forms simply don't give us the correct amount of estradiol. You can get compounded estradiol instead of the bi-est and tri-est. Thanks for any answers you can give -- this hormone thing is surely a puzzle! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2012 Report Share Posted April 9, 2012 Val: Yes, I did read Gillespie's article. My personal experience using compounded estradiol cream doesn't match up though. I think she's saying the cream doesn't absorb into the skin, but I did a blood test before, then used the cream for a while, then did blood test after and my levels went up significantly so it was defintely absorbing. Do you test your blood to see if your levels are in the optimal range? Vliet seems so sure that estradiol needs to be at least 90-100 minimum. It's so hard to know what to believe -- I've read lots of books and articles by the leaders in the field and they don't agree on much. So frustrating! Thanks, Sue > > Hi Sue, > > I used to use 1.5 mg (a full stick or two pumps). Now I use 0.75 mg (1/2 > stick) and do fine with it. I use Prometrium orally - 200 mg x 6 days, 300 > mg x 3 days, 200 mg x 1 day. I use it for the first 10 days of the month. > So far, that is producing a shed. > > Yes, you can use Prometrium vaginally but a 100 mg dose might be a lot. > Crinone used to be available in 4% and 8% doses. Now, only 8% is available. > I've heard you can use it every other day but I've never tried it. > > If compounded estrogen doesn't give us the correct amount of estradiol, > proponents are still misleading us. Dr. Gillespie says the body converts > estradiol to estriol and estrone as needed. Did you read the Gillespie page > about $3,500 compounded hormones? She contends that there are limited > conditions under which the large estradiol molecule can be delivered through > a cream. > > Val > > Re: saliva testing > > Hi Val: > Hope you don't mind the following questions. I'm searching for the right > hormonal balance. I'm 55 and have had 2 periods in the past year. Big > stuggle for the past 9 months has been anxiety/depression/anxiety. Sounds > like low estradiol after reading Vliet's books. > > Can you tell me how much Estrogel you use along with your 10 days of > prometrium? Is the prometrium oral? I have heard you can use it vaginally -- > do you know if that's true? Dr. Vliet refers to a vaginal gel called > Procheive -- sounds like something I'd like to try. Have you heard of it? > > Regarding compounded bioidenticals, one reason you may have problems with > bi-est and tri-est is that they only contains a small percentage of > estradiol -- most of the estrogen in them is estriol which Vliet says isn't > what the body needs. So I think that compounded bioidenticals aren't a > fraud, but instead those 2 forms simply don't give us the correct amount of > estradiol. You can get compounded estradiol instead of the bi-est and > tri-est. > > Thanks for any answers you can give -- this hormone thing is surely a > puzzle! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2012 Report Share Posted April 9, 2012 Val: I asked whether you test your estradiol levels because .75 mg seems like a low dose? I went to Gillespie's website and didn't see much info there. Did you join the service and pay monthly to get advice from her? thanks, Sue > > Hi Sue, > > I used to use 1.5 mg (a full stick or two pumps). Now I use 0.75 mg (1/2 > stick) and do fine with it. I use Prometrium orally - 200 mg x 6 days, 300 > mg x 3 days, 200 mg x 1 day. I use it for the first 10 days of the month. > So far, that is producing a shed. > > Yes, you can use Prometrium vaginally but a 100 mg dose might be a lot. > Crinone used to be available in 4% and 8% doses. Now, only 8% is available. > I've heard you can use it every other day but I've never tried it. > > If compounded estrogen doesn't give us the correct amount of estradiol, > proponents are still misleading us. Dr. Gillespie says the body converts > estradiol to estriol and estrone as needed. Did you read the Gillespie page > about $3,500 compounded hormones? She contends that there are limited > conditions under which the large estradiol molecule can be delivered through > a cream. > > Val > > Re: saliva testing > > Hi Val: > Hope you don't mind the following questions. I'm searching for the right > hormonal balance. I'm 55 and have had 2 periods in the past year. Big > stuggle for the past 9 months has been anxiety/depression/anxiety. Sounds > like low estradiol after reading Vliet's books. > > Can you tell me how much Estrogel you use along with your 10 days of > prometrium? Is the prometrium oral? I have heard you can use it vaginally -- > do you know if that's true? Dr. Vliet refers to a vaginal gel called > Procheive -- sounds like something I'd like to try. Have you heard of it? > > Regarding compounded bioidenticals, one reason you may have problems with > bi-est and tri-est is that they only contains a small percentage of > estradiol -- most of the estrogen in them is estriol which Vliet says isn't > what the body needs. So I think that compounded bioidenticals aren't a > fraud, but instead those 2 forms simply don't give us the correct amount of > estradiol. You can get compounded estradiol instead of the bi-est and > tri-est. > > Thanks for any answers you can give -- this hormone thing is surely a > puzzle! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2012 Report Share Posted April 9, 2012 Sue, I signed up for the personalized help, and it is worth every cent. If you ask a question, it is usually answered in hours. Gael Val:I asked whether you test your estradiol levels because .75 mg seems like a low dose?I went to Gillespie's website and didn't see much info there. Did you join the service and pay monthly to get advice from her?thanks, Sue>> Hi Sue,> > I used to use 1.5 mg (a full stick or two pumps). Now I use 0.75 mg (1/2> stick) and do fine with it. I use Prometrium orally - 200 mg x 6 days, 300> mg x 3 days, 200 mg x 1 day. I use it for the first 10 days of the month.> So far, that is producing a shed.> > Yes, you can use Prometrium vaginally but a 100 mg dose might be a lot.> Crinone used to be available in 4% and 8% doses. Now, only 8% is available.> I've heard you can use it every other day but I've never tried it.> > If compounded estrogen doesn't give us the correct amount of estradiol,> proponents are still misleading us. Dr. Gillespie says the body converts> estradiol to estriol and estrone as needed. Did you read the Gillespie page> about $3,500 compounded hormones? She contends that there are limited> conditions under which the large estradiol molecule can be delivered through> a cream.> > Val> > Re: saliva testing> > Hi Val:> Hope you don't mind the following questions. I'm searching for the right> hormonal balance. I'm 55 and have had 2 periods in the past year. Big> stuggle for the past 9 months has been anxiety/depression/anxiety. Sounds> like low estradiol after reading Vliet's books.> > Can you tell me how much Estrogel you use along with your 10 days of> prometrium? Is the prometrium oral? I have heard you can use it vaginally --> do you know if that's true? Dr. Vliet refers to a vaginal gel called> Procheive -- sounds like something I'd like to try. Have you heard of it?> > Regarding compounded bioidenticals, one reason you may have problems with> bi-est and tri-est is that they only contains a small percentage of> estradiol -- most of the estrogen in them is estriol which Vliet says isn't> what the body needs. So I think that compounded bioidenticals aren't a> fraud, but instead those 2 forms simply don't give us the correct amount of> estradiol. You can get compounded estradiol instead of the bi-est and> tri-est.> > Thanks for any answers you can give -- this hormone thing is surely a> puzzle!> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2012 Report Share Posted April 9, 2012 Hi Val, I have taken estrogen unopposed for about 9 months. The only reason I did that is because I felt horrible everytime I tried to use it. I was on the P cream for a couple of years without issue and then my body went the other direction. I even tried to use tiny amounts of P cream from the health food store and it wasn't good. So, I finally gave the Prometrium a try last month and felt okay on 100mg. I did notice some heart palps when I tried to take 200mg and then felt much better once I went back to 100mg. I did get a bleed while taking the Prometrium and since I stopped it after being on it for about 12 days the bleeding stopped too. Not sure why that is. I thought a bleed was supposed to happen after stopping the P? High blood glucose is an issue for me. I take a low dose of glucophage and eat very low carb. I have gotten my A1c down to 5.1 in this way as it was getting as high as 6.1. I had to get proactive. So, I do feel concerned that taking P on a daily basis would raise my BG's which is a good reason to cycle, I think. Yes, I would say I am full menopausal. I started BHRT in 2009 and have definitely gone more than a year without a bleed. My FSH is always high and as much as I don't want to be menopausal...apparently I am. I thought my thyroid was to blame for the majority of things and although getting that straightened out is a big factor in getting well I have come to realize just how much of my poor feelings are related to my unbalanced sex hormones. I became so focused on working on thyroid that it took me a bit to clue in to just how wacked my sex hormones really were. I did so well on the creams in the beginning that I thought it was smooth sailing after that. Well, I hopped from ocean cruiser to roller coaster ride unfortuntaely. lol... I just reread your post. So maybe a bleed happens while taking progesterone because estrogen goes too low in comparison to P? Well, I can see I need to get off this bi-est cream from Uzzi. I'm taking 12 mg a day but I wonder just how much is actually working for me? Yeah, after everything I've read I just can't get myself to climb on board with the saliva testing. I think it would be a big mistake for me to reduce my estrogen and take P continuouslly like this NP wants me to do. I have noticed that I oftentimes I feel calm and okay in the early part of the day but yesterday, for instance, later in the afternoon I got flushed cheeks, my heart started pounding, I felt panicky, my eyes were bloodshot, like I wanted to crawl out of my skin. It made me wonder if I felt better earlier on because I had applied the biest cream and then as it wears off the worse I start to feel until I apply it again before bed? Thank you so much for sharing your experiences and dosing regime. I am also very interested in looking at Larrian Gillespie's website and will do when I can join! Sorry for the lengthy disjointed post. lol...That's how my brain is working these days. Again thank you for replying to my post! I really do appreciate the input Laurie > > > > Hi...I feel like I'm going in circles. Went to see a new NP last month and > she wanted me to do a saliva test as that is her preferred way to test > hormones. I've read that it's not the most accurate but I did it anyway as > it's getting so expensive to doc hop which I feel like I've been doing alot > lately. She put me on Prometrium and I'm doing well on it so far, which > really surprised me. She wants me to take it continuously which I'm unsure > about. I'm guessing that cyclically would be better. Well, my saliva > results came back and we discussed them today. I'm on a Bi-est cream right > now (through Uzzi) and these were my results: > > > > Estradiol: >99 (2-10) > > Estriol: >100 (14-38) > > Estrone: 64 (38-68) > > Progesterone: 73 (she says should be 300) > > Testosterone: 19 (10-38) > > DHEA: 1 (3-10) > > > > So, now she wants to put me on the Vivelle Dot and wean me down on the > estrogen over about 2-3 months time....because she says I have too much > estrogen in my tissues. > > > > I haven't had serum testing since January at which time my estrogen was a > '19.' Progesterone and testosterone both showed in the negative. > > > > She also wants me to go for an endometrial biopsy because my ultrasound > showed the lining to be at around 7mm. 2 other doctors who saw the results, > including Uzzi, didnt' think that was necessary. I doubt she will continue > to see me if I don't do it. > > > > Does her plan to wean me down on estrogen sound wacky? She wants to > eventually get me on a sublingual estrogen because she doesn't want me to > take it transdermally or orally. > > > > Oh, on top of all that....after I started the Prometrium I began to shed > my lining and have had a headache for about a good week. Wouldn't that > headache be low estrogen? > > > > I do have Oestrogel to try but I haven't given it a go yet because I was > flu and then I decided to wait until I got the saliva test results. I was > curious to see what the NP's plan would be. > > > > Thanks so much for your input. I feel like my head is spinning. I just > want to do the right thing for a change. lol.... > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2012 Report Share Posted April 9, 2012 Sue, it could be that the cream you use has been formulated to carry the large estradiol molecule. There is an RX cream/lotion that does but I can't remember the name. See my other email about testing and an optimal level of estradiol. Compounded hormones may not be consistent. Honestly, with standardized transdermal estradiol and micronized progesterone available, I would never again go through the brain damage of untested and un-researched hormone mixtures. Val -----Original Message----- From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of suefoell@... Val: Yes, I did read Gillespie's article. My personal experience using compounded estradiol cream doesn't match up though. I think she's saying the cream doesn't absorb into the skin, but I did a blood test before, then used the cream for a while, then did blood test after and my levels went up significantly so it was defintely absorbing. Do you test your blood to see if your levels are in the optimal range? Vliet seems so sure that estradiol needs to be at least 90-100 minimum. It's so hard to know what to believe -- I've read lots of books and articles by the leaders in the field and they don't agree on much. So frustrating! Thanks, Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2012 Report Share Posted April 9, 2012 Sue, I have been a member of Dr. Gillespie's list for about 6 - 8 years. It is no longer very active but she answers private messages. She likes to see blood estradiol between 70 - 114. I no longer test estradiol or progesterone; I just dose by how I feel. 0.75 seems to fit me. I put it on fat areas and it lasts better that way. She and Dr. Vliet do not like oral estradiol because of the possible stroke risks. Apparently, that same risk is not associated with transdermal estradiol. Val -----Original Message----- From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of suefoell@... Val: I asked whether you test your estradiol levels because .75 mg seems like a low dose? I went to Gillespie's website and didn't see much info there. Did you join the service and pay monthly to get advice from her? thanks, Sue > > Hi Sue, > > I used to use 1.5 mg (a full stick or two pumps). Now I use 0.75 mg (1/2 > stick) and do fine with it. I use Prometrium orally - 200 mg x 6 days, 300 > mg x 3 days, 200 mg x 1 day. I use it for the first 10 days of the month. > So far, that is producing a shed. > > Yes, you can use Prometrium vaginally but a 100 mg dose might be a lot. > Crinone used to be available in 4% and 8% doses. Now, only 8% is available. > I've heard you can use it every other day but I've never tried it. > > If compounded estrogen doesn't give us the correct amount of estradiol, > proponents are still misleading us. Dr. Gillespie says the body converts > estradiol to estriol and estrone as needed. Did you read the Gillespie page > about $3,500 compounded hormones? She contends that there are limited > conditions under which the large estradiol molecule can be delivered through > a cream. > > Val > > -----Original Message----- > From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] > On Behalf Of suefoell@... > Hi Val: > Hope you don't mind the following questions. I'm searching for the right > hormonal balance. I'm 55 and have had 2 periods in the past year. Big > stuggle for the past 9 months has been anxiety/depression/anxiety. Sounds > like low estradiol after reading Vliet's books. > > Can you tell me how much Estrogel you use along with your 10 days of > prometrium? Is the prometrium oral? I have heard you can use it vaginally -- > do you know if that's true? Dr. Vliet refers to a vaginal gel called > Procheive -- sounds like something I'd like to try. Have you heard of it? > > Regarding compounded bioidenticals, one reason you may have problems with > bi-est and tri-est is that they only contains a small percentage of > estradiol -- most of the estrogen in them is estriol which Vliet says isn't > what the body needs. So I think that compounded bioidenticals aren't a > fraud, but instead those 2 forms simply don't give us the correct amount of > estradiol. You can get compounded estradiol instead of the bi-est and > tri-est. > > Thanks for any answers you can give -- this hormone thing is surely a > puzzle! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2012 Report Share Posted April 9, 2012 Laurie, sometimes my shed starts before I finish the Prometrium, and sometimes a day or two after. If it starts early, I stop Prometrium. I have a study showing that progesterone cream does not protect the uterus in 32% of women. I wouldn't touch it! It is a shame that progesterone cream has become the treatment for everyone. There is no research that I know of to support its use. I hope you are consistent in protecting your uterus. According to Dr. Gillespie, every three months of vaginal P is enough. That didn't work for me but I have other things going on. Dr. Gillespie has been a Godsend for me. www.hormonediva.com She is a retired professor of uro-gynecology at UCLA and very well versed in the literature. Val -----Original Message----- From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of clowgerl Hi Val, I have taken estrogen unopposed for about 9 months. The only reason I did that is because I felt horrible everytime I tried to use it. I was on the P cream for a couple of years without issue and then my body went the other direction. I even tried to use tiny amounts of P cream from the health food store and it wasn't good. So, I finally gave the Prometrium a try last month and felt okay on 100mg. I did notice some heart palps when I tried to take 200mg and then felt much better once I went back to 100mg. I did get a bleed while taking the Prometrium and since I stopped it after being on it for about 12 days the bleeding stopped too. Not sure why that is. I thought a bleed was supposed to happen after stopping the P? High blood glucose is an issue for me. I take a low dose of glucophage and eat very low carb. I have gotten my A1c down to 5.1 in this way as it was getting as high as 6.1. I had to get proactive. So, I do feel concerned that taking P on a daily basis would raise my BG's which is a good reason to cycle, I think. Yes, I would say I am full menopausal. I started BHRT in 2009 and have definitely gone more than a year without a bleed. My FSH is always high and as much as I don't want to be menopausal...apparently I am. I thought my thyroid was to blame for the majority of things and although getting that straightened out is a big factor in getting well I have come to realize just how much of my poor feelings are related to my unbalanced sex hormones. I became so focused on working on thyroid that it took me a bit to clue in to just how wacked my sex hormones really were. I did so well on the creams in the beginning that I thought it was smooth sailing after that. Well, I hopped from ocean cruiser to roller coaster ride unfortuntaely. lol... I just reread your post. So maybe a bleed happens while taking progesterone because estrogen goes too low in comparison to P? Well, I can see I need to get off this bi-est cream from Uzzi. I'm taking 12 mg a day but I wonder just how much is actually working for me? Yeah, after everything I've read I just can't get myself to climb on board with the saliva testing. I think it would be a big mistake for me to reduce my estrogen and take P continuouslly like this NP wants me to do. I have noticed that I oftentimes I feel calm and okay in the early part of the day but yesterday, for instance, later in the afternoon I got flushed cheeks, my heart started pounding, I felt panicky, my eyes were bloodshot, like I wanted to crawl out of my skin. It made me wonder if I felt better earlier on because I had applied the biest cream and then as it wears off the worse I start to feel until I apply it again before bed? Thank you so much for sharing your experiences and dosing regime. I am also very interested in looking at Larrian Gillespie's website and will do when I can join! Sorry for the lengthy disjointed post. lol...That's how my brain is working these days. Again thank you for replying to my post! I really do appreciate the input Laurie > > > > Hi...I feel like I'm going in circles. Went to see a new NP last month and > she wanted me to do a saliva test as that is her preferred way to test > hormones. I've read that it's not the most accurate but I did it anyway as > it's getting so expensive to doc hop which I feel like I've been doing alot > lately. She put me on Prometrium and I'm doing well on it so far, which > really surprised me. She wants me to take it continuously which I'm unsure > about. I'm guessing that cyclically would be better. Well, my saliva > results came back and we discussed them today. I'm on a Bi-est cream right > now (through Uzzi) and these were my results: > > > > Estradiol: >99 (2-10) > > Estriol: >100 (14-38) > > Estrone: 64 (38-68) > > Progesterone: 73 (she says should be 300) > > Testosterone: 19 (10-38) > > DHEA: 1 (3-10) > > > > So, now she wants to put me on the Vivelle Dot and wean me down on the > estrogen over about 2-3 months time....because she says I have too much > estrogen in my tissues. > > > > I haven't had serum testing since January at which time my estrogen was a > '19.' Progesterone and testosterone both showed in the negative. > > > > She also wants me to go for an endometrial biopsy because my ultrasound > showed the lining to be at around 7mm. 2 other doctors who saw the results, > including Uzzi, didnt' think that was necessary. I doubt she will continue > to see me if I don't do it. > > > > Does her plan to wean me down on estrogen sound wacky? She wants to > eventually get me on a sublingual estrogen because she doesn't want me to > take it transdermally or orally. > > > > Oh, on top of all that....after I started the Prometrium I began to shed > my lining and have had a headache for about a good week. Wouldn't that > headache be low estrogen? > > > > I do have Oestrogel to try but I haven't given it a go yet because I was > flu and then I decided to wait until I got the saliva test results. I was > curious to see what the NP's plan would be. > > > > Thanks so much for your input. I feel like my head is spinning. I just > want to do the right thing for a change. lol.... > > > ------------------------------------ click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/ **The group conversation is informational in nature and is not intended as medical advice.** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2012 Report Share Posted April 10, 2012 Blood sugar goes up with too much E....insulin resistance rears its head with too much P from what I have read. Common wisdon is that when you have the amounts right, there is no need for a bleed if the estrogen dose is only at what you need and no more ( in other words not enough to create a linging but enough that it and the P can balance out one another) and the P is taken daily, preferably in oral (Prometrium) form. > High blood glucose is an issue for me. I take a low dose of glucophage and eat very low carb. I have gotten my A1c down to 5.1 in this way as it was getting as high as 6.1. I had to get proactive. So, I do feel concerned that taking P on a daily basis would raise my BG's which is a good reason to cycle, I think. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2012 Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 Hi Val, I did join hormonediva.com and had a few exchanges with Dr. Gillespie. She seems to think that I would do best with 17 beta estradiol troches as she doesn't think I would absorb the gel well. She gave me the name of a doctor in my area but I haven't contacted him yet because I'm a little worried about some financial things at the moment and am not sure if I can afford him just yet. In the meantime was trying out a new doctor and was waiting for lab results. Well, I got the results yesterday and my testosterone was in the negative, progesterone was on the prescription to test but for some reason there wasn't a result for it on the labs, and my estradiol was " 39. " To my dismay, she seems to think that the " 39 " is " fine. " It's not fine. I have been using the Vivelle Dot because they were samples given to me but they are running out and not doing a good job obviously. This doc suggested I stay on the V. Dot. but I told her that I wanted my estrogen to come up and so I have an appt to see her next week as I think she's going to prescribe Estrogel but I'm debating on whether to even waste my time because I doubt she will prescribe enough. I have a couple of tubes of Oestrogel to try so I'm starting that today but I looked online at cost of the tubes and it's pretty spendy through Inhouse but very reasonable at Master's however it looks like Master's requires a script. I was hoping to be able to order without a script. Just wondering how you all order it? This feels more frustrating by the day... Thank you Laurie > > > > > > Hi...I feel like I'm going in circles. Went to see a new NP last month > and > > she wanted me to do a saliva test as that is her preferred way to test > > hormones. I've read that it's not the most accurate but I did it anyway > as > > it's getting so expensive to doc hop which I feel like I've been doing > alot > > lately. She put me on Prometrium and I'm doing well on it so far, which > > really surprised me. She wants me to take it continuously which I'm unsure > > about. I'm guessing that cyclically would be better. Well, my saliva > > results came back and we discussed them today. I'm on a Bi-est cream > right > > now (through Uzzi) and these were my results: > > > > > > Estradiol: >99 (2-10) > > > Estriol: >100 (14-38) > > > Estrone: 64 (38-68) > > > Progesterone: 73 (she says should be 300) > > > Testosterone: 19 (10-38) > > > DHEA: 1 (3-10) > > > > > > So, now she wants to put me on the Vivelle Dot and wean me down on the > > estrogen over about 2-3 months time....because she says I have too much > > estrogen in my tissues. > > > > > > I haven't had serum testing since January at which time my estrogen was > a > > '19.' Progesterone and testosterone both showed in the negative. > > > > > > She also wants me to go for an endometrial biopsy because my ultrasound > > showed the lining to be at around 7mm. 2 other doctors who saw the > results, > > including Uzzi, didnt' think that was necessary. I doubt she will > continue > > to see me if I don't do it. > > > > > > Does her plan to wean me down on estrogen sound wacky? She wants to > > eventually get me on a sublingual estrogen because she doesn't want me to > > take it transdermally or orally. > > > > > > Oh, on top of all that....after I started the Prometrium I began to shed > > my lining and have had a headache for about a good week. Wouldn't that > > headache be low estrogen? > > > > > > I do have Oestrogel to try but I haven't given it a go yet because I was > > flu and then I decided to wait until I got the saliva test results. I was > > curious to see what the NP's plan would be. > > > > > > Thanks so much for your input. I feel like my head is spinning. I just > > want to do the right thing for a change. lol.... > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/ > > **The group conversation is informational in nature and is not intended as > medical advice.** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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