Re: Re: Estrogen supplementation during menses

[Guest guest]

Hi Viki,I know it's been a few days but I haven't had any time to sit down and go through my emails until now. It''s possible that the HC has brought your estrogen levels down. It did mine as well as my testosterone and progesterone. I don't understand it because I truly needed it and was on 30mg for several years. I have now been off of it for 3 months now and still struggle around ovulation time. I am very hypo-adrenal around mid-month, usually around day 7 through 21 so I basically feel like poop those days except for the afternoons. Could low estrogen cause this. I'm not taking any hormones and just trying to see if chinese herbs will work. I think if we can find something that balances the HPA axis, then all the hormones should become

balanced.P.S. I like your email address, very funny!! To: rhythmicliving Sent: Monday, April 2, 2012 11:06 AM Subject: Re: Estrogen supplementation during menses

Thank you, !

I see now that I need to check my Day 1 est. levels.

My next question is about the ovulatory estrogen peak. Right now it is at 270- and used to be 350 3 years ago, and likely much higher before – I was literally going crazy during ovulation when I was in my 20ies. So I wonder if for me, specifically, my max estrogen supposed to be higher than 270 to produce a full ovulatory effect on all the other hormones.

My feeling is that it's not just one cycle thing, but an overall drop in my estrogen. I don't know if it's connected to the fact that I take progesterone for 3 years now- even on the `off' days (?) My PMS, in the past, was due to the fact that my progesterone was too low- I know that because any addition of estrogen lead to the intensification of the symptoms- while adding progesterone (I tried both Prometrium and the cream) eliminated the problems, including the PMS. Still, there is a shift of some sort, after 3 years, and I feel that I need a little estrogen now.

For that, I started using estradiol cream- by Wiley (not in her doses, of course, but I like the convenience of their packing.) Another thing I like about using the cream is that I feel in control- as soon as I start feeling `crazy' again, I reduce the dose for that day.

My T hormones levels are normal. I do take 10 mg of hydrocortisone still to help my adrenals, along with some supplements- and never have any fatigue on this dose. I started with 20 mg in the morning 4 years ago as my adrenals were nearly completely exhausted (after a series of very stressful events in my life, including tragedy in the family), but they seemed to have recuperated to some degree after 3 years or so, and I have been cutting the dose slowly. I have never used birth control pills- or any synthetic hormones, and will try to stay away from them (only a non-hormonal IUD for me.) In addition to my instinctual aversion to any non-bioidentical hormones, the research shows that using BC pills brings menopause earlier.

Viki

PS Please explain what do `normal levels' mean? Does it factor the age or is it a general `perfect' number? I'd like to keep all the hormones both balanced- and in the `young' ranges- meaning as in our 20ies, since in the 30ies the hormones and health are already in decline. I understand that the numbers are very individual, and I have no certain idea what my levels were in my 20ies. Another marker that I've heard of is `as in the most fertile state', for which, I read, the lowest estradiol maximum is 270…

>

> Hi Viki,

>

> I don't think there are many here who are still cycling besides you and I. Have you heard of Dr. Vliet? She has written many books and she appears to be the only one who has published lab test analysis for cycling women. I can't answer any of your questions but wanted to share with you what she has written about estrogen.

>

> Estradiol: Test on day 1,2 or 3 of cycle and then again on day 21. Use transdermal estradiol patch (Alora, Estraderm or Vivelle-Dot). Also available in pill form as Estrace. I have suggested that my patients put the patch on the buttock sometime between cycle day 24 and 28, change the patch two or three days later, and wear another one until about day 3 or 4 of the next cycle. This helps offset the body drop in estradiol, keeps blood levels steady, and can prevent the menstrual migraine.

>

> After menopause, women typically have estradiol levels of only 10-30pg/ml. Levels below 90 are generally too low to provide adequate relief of symptoms. Low estradiol can cause low body temperature and if you are low in estrogen then just taking T3 will not bring basal temperature back to normal. Still there are other endocrine factors that determine basal body temperature. High FSH levels (above 20mIU/ml) indicate that estradiol levels are too low, even if you are on hormone therapy.

>

> Normal levels:

> Day 1

> Estradiol 70-90 pg/ml (lower end of the range is above 90-100pg/ml for healthy menstrual cycle levels.)

> Levels up to about 200 or so are the normal estradiol levels reached in the first half of cycle.

>

> Folllicular phase:

> Estradiol 200, ovulatory peak is 300-250/300

>

> Luteal phase:

> Estradiol 200-300

> This is the cycle week in which PMS typically gets worse as progesterone levels increase. Vliet finds that women with PMS typically have progesterone levels that increase normally, but their estradiol is usually below about 150.

> Natural progesterone and estrogen are best for menopausal women BUT birth control pills can do a world of good for women who are still menstruating and have endometriosis, fibroids, heavy bleeding, ovarian cysts, PCOS, severe PMS, menstrually triggered migraines, severe anemia, recurrent breast cystsâ€"just to name some key ones.

>

> Let me know what you think,,

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

>

> To: rhythmicliving

> Sent: Sunday, April 1, 2012 1:55 PM

> Subject: Estrogen supplementation during menses

>

>

> Â

> Hello, dear ladies,

>

> I'm reading the posts silently most of the time- and learning a lot in the process. Even if most of what I read is not applicable to me, it still broadens my understanding, plus, I can pass the knowledge to my friends who may need it.

> I have a question for myself, though, this time.

> I just added a little estrogen to my regimen and I wonder if what I am experiencing now is normal.

>

> The history:

>

> Cycling regularly, no misses, no hot flashes, etc. If I'm in the early stages of perimenopause as chronologically I am already in my 40ies, I don't know it. My health markers are pretty young- I took a good care of my health all my life. However, from the onset of menarche and all my life, I had symptoms of estrogen dominance.

>

> I have been taking only progesterone cream with great results for about 3 years now. I am taking it in a cyclic manner (2 lines twice daily during the second part of the cycle), but I also add a tad (~10 mg- 0.5 line, once daily) on the `off' days as it really helps me with anxiety, especially during ovulation. That works for me. My body fat is low (I'm an athlete) and I always put the cream on the thinnest skin. No accumulation signs or side effects so far. (Before I even started on progesterone, I took care of my fatigued adrenals â€" I went pretty smart about it.)

> During these 3 `progesterone' years, I made about 5 attempts to add just a little estrogen â€" since, for myself, I decided, that I will not wait for my levels to drop significantly and will try to keep them as youthful as possible- so that I can keep all my receptors. (Staying young is my main motivation.) None of those earlier attempts worked. My anxiety and rage returned each time I tried to add estrogen. Adding more progesterone on top of that didn't make any difference. So, I gave up for a while, deciding that I likely still had too much of my own to be supplementing. (The blood tests would show 300-400 estr. at ovulation.)

>

> The present:

> Lately, however (~ 3mths ago), I started to experience fatigue and `PMS', plus accentuated hollowed appearance during the menstruation itself. The latest blood test, even though I might not been at the `top' point when I took it), showed the lowest estrogen ever for me- 270. It's very likely that my estrogen is finally starting to dropâ€"and that affected my periods.

> I read that blunting the significant drop in estrogen just before menses sometimes can help reduce menstrual symptoms. So I decided to attempt adding estrogen again. I added 1 line (1 mg) once a day to raise my baseline and lessen the `drop'. It was a success this time! I felt great. I continued doing 1 line a day- and still doing it now.

>

> Now, to the problem. My first cycle with estrogen was perfect. However, my second ended at just 19 days (normally, it's 29 days)

> Also, I actually saw small pieces of my lining coming out - in fact, this last menses started not with blood per se, but with pieces of lining just falling out of me. Otherwise, I felt fairly well.

>

> So, I would appreciate if someone could educate me: Can estrogen make your lining unstable? Why would adding estrogen shorten one's cycle? Before, during my unsuccessful attempts, when I tried it even for a few days, my cycle would become a little longer, not shorter- and, according to my previous understanding, estrogen is supposed to make the lining more stable, grow it more, etc.

>

> Thank you in advance for any knowledge/experiences you can share with me,

> Viki

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Viki. Sorry for taking so long to respond but I caught the flu and didn't feel well. Since I stopped HC in January, I've become sick 2x and before that it was 3 years!Yes, even if your cortisol levels are low, for some reason supplementing with HC brought my estrogen levels way down. Please let me know if you found additional information about that.The chinese herb that I've taken now for over a month now isn't doing a thing and it's called Tao Hong Si Wu Tang.HGH injections may be our answer but they are very expensive from what I hear. How about trying HGH precursor that helps increase HGH levels? Such as the insulin-like growth factor (IGF-1). http://insulin-growth-factor.com/Please report back about your experiments and I will also let you know about any discoveries I make. To: rhythmicliving Sent: Friday, April 6, 2012 12:49 PM Subject: Re: Estrogen supplementation during menses

Thank you, . It's interesting that cortisol can bring est. levels down- would it happen even if the supplemented levels of cortisol are still low? I'll try to find something about it, to read. What herbs are you taking? I wonder if they can make the E and P supplementation more effective and 'smooth.'.

I'm doing an experiment right now- it's around ovulation time and I don't put on any estrogen (but I do put a tad of progesterone at night, as always.) I feel pretty great (was getting jittery feeling again with that new 1 line a day static dose as in my estrogen dominant days.) I'll start adding E again closer to my periods and for a few days when I bleed. The thing I'm trying to test is that, maybe, the problem is not so much with the overall drop in estrogen as with the higher fluctuation during the cycle- drop from the max (ovulation) to the min (menstruation.) I also want to see how that strategy will affect the length of the cycle. I will report the results in a few weeks.

If I could afford it, I would start on a low, physiological dose HGH injections. I read oodles of literature on it- both pro and cons- and am pretty convinced that our aging occurs largely in response to the natural decline in HGH production. The supplementation might not only help to balance the rest of the hormones - and to bring them to higher, younger levels- in some studies, it even reverses the menopause in ~ 50 % of women, can you imagine!

I have an aunt that, due to a sickness, underwent menopause very early- around 35. Still, she looked terrific and had a lot of energy- until she hit about 55. And then, all of the so called 'menopausal' changes started happening to her. Coincidentally, that's the age when a major drop in HGH production occurs in most people.

Viki

> >

> > Hi Viki,

> >

> > I don't think there are many here who are still cycling besides you and I. Have you heard of Dr. Vliet? She has written many books and she appears to be the only one who has published lab test analysis for cycling women. I can't answer any of your questions but wanted to share with you what she has written about estrogen.

> >

> > Estradiol: Test on day 1,2 or 3 of cycle and then again on day 21. Use transdermal estradiol patch (Alora, Estraderm or Vivelle-Dot). Also available in pill form as Estrace. I have suggested that my patients put the patch on the buttock sometime between cycle day 24 and 28, change the patch two or three days later, and wear another one until about day 3 or 4 of the next cycle. This helps offset the body drop in estradiol, keeps blood levels steady, and can prevent the menstrual migraine.

> >

> > After menopause, women typically have estradiol levels of only 10-30pg/ml. Levels below 90 are generally too low to provide adequate relief of symptoms. Low estradiol can cause low body temperature and if you are low in estrogen then just taking T3 will not bring basal temperature back to normal. Still there are other endocrine factors that determine basal body temperature. High FSH levels (above 20mIU/ml) indicate that estradiol levels are too low, even if you are on hormone therapy.

> >

> > Normal levels:

> > Day 1

> > Estradiol 70-90 pg/ml (lower end of the range is above 90-100pg/ml for healthy menstrual cycle levels.)

> > Levels up to about 200 or so are the normal estradiol levels reached in the first half of cycle.

> >

> > Folllicular phase:

> > Estradiol 200, ovulatory peak is 300-250/300

> >

> > Luteal phase:

> > Estradiol 200-300

> > This is the cycle week in which PMS typically gets worse as progesterone levels increase. Vliet finds that women with PMS typically have progesterone levels that increase normally, but their estradiol is usually below about 150.

> > Natural progesterone and estrogen are best for menopausal women BUT birth control pills can do a world of good for women who are still menstruating and have endometriosis, fibroids, heavy bleeding, ovarian cysts, PCOS, severe PMS, menstrually triggered migraines, severe anemia, recurrent breast cystsâ€"just to name some key ones.

> >

> > Let me know what you think,,

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ________________________________

> > From: health_junkie <health_junkie@>

> > To: rhythmicliving

> > Sent: Sunday, April 1, 2012 1:55 PM

> > Subject: Estrogen supplementation during menses

> >

> >

> > ÂÂ

> > Hello, dear ladies,

> >

> > I'm reading the posts silently most of the time- and learning a lot in the process. Even if most of what I read is not applicable to me, it still broadens my understanding, plus, I can pass the knowledge to my friends who may need it.

> > I have a question for myself, though, this time.

> > I just added a little estrogen to my regimen and I wonder if what I am experiencing now is normal.

> >

> > The history:

> >

> > Cycling regularly, no misses, no hot flashes, etc. If I'm in the early stages of perimenopause as chronologically I am already in my 40ies, I don't know it. My health markers are pretty young- I took a good care of my health all my life. However, from the onset of menarche and all my life, I had symptoms of estrogen dominance.

> >

> > I have been taking only progesterone cream with great results for about 3 years now. I am taking it in a cyclic manner (2 lines twice daily during the second part of the cycle), but I also add a tad (~10 mg- 0.5 line, once daily) on the `off' days as it really helps me with anxiety, especially during ovulation. That works for me. My body fat is low (I'm an athlete) and I always put the cream on the thinnest skin. No accumulation signs or side effects so far. (Before I even started on progesterone, I took care of my fatigued adrenals â€" I went pretty smart about it.)

> > During these 3 `progesterone' years, I made about 5 attempts to add just a little estrogen â€" since, for myself, I decided, that I will not wait for my levels to drop significantly and will try to keep them as youthful as possible- so that I can keep all my receptors. (Staying young is my main motivation.) None of those earlier attempts worked. My anxiety and rage returned each time I tried to add estrogen. Adding more progesterone on top of that didn't make any difference. So, I gave up for a while, deciding that I likely still had too much of my own to be supplementing. (The blood tests would show 300-400 estr. at ovulation.)

> >

> > The present:

> > Lately, however (~ 3mths ago), I started to experience fatigue and `PMS', plus accentuated hollowed appearance during the menstruation itself. The latest blood test, even though I might not been at the `top' point when I took it), showed the lowest estrogen ever for me- 270. It's very likely that my estrogen is finally starting to dropâ€"and that affected my periods.

> > I read that blunting the significant drop in estrogen just before menses sometimes can help reduce menstrual symptoms. So I decided to attempt adding estrogen again. I added 1 line (1 mg) once a day to raise my baseline and lessen the `drop'. It was a success this time! I felt great. I continued doing 1 line a day- and still doing it now.

> >

> > Now, to the problem. My first cycle with estrogen was perfect. However, my second ended at just 19 days (normally, it's 29 days)

> > Also, I actually saw small pieces of my lining coming out - in fact, this last menses started not with blood per se, but with pieces of lining just falling out of me. Otherwise, I felt fairly well.

> >

> > So, I would appreciate if someone could educate me: Can estrogen make your lining unstable? Why would adding estrogen shorten one's cycle? Before, during my unsuccessful attempts, when I tried it even for a few days, my cycle would become a little longer, not shorter- and, according to my previous understanding, estrogen is supposed to make the lining more stable, grow it more, etc.

> >

> > Thank you in advance for any knowledge/experiences you can share with me,

> > Viki

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, . I did try some of the precursors- not the insulin-growth factor as that one causes extreme food cravings and can screw up your sugar metabolism. There is a better one, called Hexarelin- with even better HGH increase and no side effects. You would need to inject both. BUT. The precursors work for a limited time only, usually

a few weeks, then your body stops responding. A low, physiological doze

of HGH can be taken indefinitely- same as the sex and other hormones. Of course if you take it as some bodybuilders- in huge amounts, then, just as with testosterone, your own production will shut down. And lastly, the precursors work well only up to a certain age (average ~ 40), then their effect is negligible, for most people. The injectable, most effective precursors are not cheap at all. As far as stimulating your GH production nothing is worth the money. Simply put, if you have $100 to spend, it's better to buy HGH. Even that small amount will be more than you would achieve with any sort of stimulation. HGH is always the best bang for your buck. I optimize my own HGH production with a strategic dozing of amino acids and fasting timed with intense exercise. But that's an optimization still within the age range and a weak improvement (and it's a lot of work!) It doesn't put me anywhere close to the HGH levels of a 20 yo.VikiTo: rhythmicliving From: florida_native222@...Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 06:54:43 -0700Subject: Re: Re: Estrogen supplementation during menses

Hi Viki. Sorry for taking so long to respond but I caught the flu and didn't feel well. Since I stopped HC in January, I've become sick 2x and before that it was 3 years!Yes, even if your cortisol levels are low, for some reason supplementing with HC brought my estrogen levels way down. Please let me know if you found additional information about that.The chinese herb that I've taken now for over a month now isn't doing a thing and it's called Tao Hong Si Wu Tang.HGH injections may be our answer but they are very expensive from what I hear. How about trying HGH precursor that helps increase HGH levels? Such as the insulin-like growth factor (IGF-1). http://insulin-growth-factor.com/Please report back about your experiments and I will also let you know about any discoveries I make. To: rhythmicliving Sent: Friday, April 6, 2012 12:49 PM Subject: Re: Estrogen supplementation during menses

Thank you, . It's interesting that cortisol can bring est. levels down- would it happen even if the supplemented levels of cortisol are still low? I'll try to find something about it, to read. What herbs are you taking? I wonder if they can make the E and P supplementation more effective and 'smooth.'.

I'm doing an experiment right now- it's around ovulation time and I don't put on any estrogen (but I do put a tad of progesterone at night, as always.) I feel pretty great (was getting jittery feeling again with that new 1 line a day static dose as in my estrogen dominant days.) I'll start adding E again closer to my periods and for a few days when I bleed. The thing I'm trying to test is that, maybe, the problem is not so much with the overall drop in estrogen as with the higher fluctuation during the cycle- drop from the max (ovulation) to the min (menstruation.) I also want to see how that strategy will affect the length of the cycle. I will report the results in a few weeks.

If I could afford it, I would start on a low, physiological dose HGH injections. I read oodles of literature on it- both pro and cons- and am pretty convinced that our aging occurs largely in response to the natural decline in HGH production. The supplementation might not only help to balance the rest of the hormones - and to bring them to higher, younger levels- in some studies, it even reverses the menopause in ~ 50 % of women, can you imagine!

I have an aunt that, due to a sickness, underwent menopause very early- around 35. Still, she looked terrific and had a lot of energy- until she hit about 55. And then, all of the so called 'menopausal' changes started happening to her. Coincidentally, that's the age when a major drop in HGH production occurs in most people.

Viki

> >

> > Hi Viki,

> >

> > I don't think there are many here who are still cycling besides you and I. Have you heard of Dr. Vliet? She has written many books and she appears to be the only one who has published lab test analysis for cycling women. I can't answer any of your questions but wanted to share with you what she has written about estrogen.

> >

> > Estradiol: Test on day 1,2 or 3 of cycle and then again on day 21. Use transdermal estradiol patch (Alora, Estraderm or Vivelle-Dot). Also available in pill form as Estrace. I have suggested that my patients put the patch on the buttock sometime between cycle day 24 and 28, change the patch two or three days later, and wear another one until about day 3 or 4 of the next cycle. This helps offset the body drop in estradiol, keeps blood levels steady, and can prevent the menstrual migraine.

> >

> > After menopause, women typically have estradiol levels of only 10-30pg/ml. Levels below 90 are generally too low to provide adequate relief of symptoms. Low estradiol can cause low body temperature and if you are low in estrogen then just taking T3 will not bring basal temperature back to normal. Still there are other endocrine factors that determine basal body temperature. High FSH levels (above 20mIU/ml) indicate that estradiol levels are too low, even if you are on hormone therapy.

> >

> > Normal levels:

> > Day 1

> > Estradiol 70-90 pg/ml (lower end of the range is above 90-100pg/ml for healthy menstrual cycle levels.)

> > Levels up to about 200 or so are the normal estradiol levels reached in the first half of cycle.

> >

> > Folllicular phase:

> > Estradiol 200, ovulatory peak is 300-250/300

> >

> > Luteal phase:

> > Estradiol 200-300

> > This is the cycle week in which PMS typically gets worse as progesterone levels increase. Vliet finds that women with PMS typically have progesterone levels that increase normally, but their estradiol is usually below about 150.

> > Natural progesterone and estrogen are best for menopausal women BUT birth control pills can do a world of good for women who are still menstruating and have endometriosis, fibroids, heavy bleeding, ovarian cysts, PCOS, severe PMS, menstrually triggered migraines, severe anemia, recurrent breast cystsâ€"just to name some key ones.

> >

> > Let me know what you think,,

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ________________________________

> > From: health_junkie <health_junkie@>

> > To: rhythmicliving

> > Sent: Sunday, April 1, 2012 1:55 PM

> > Subject: Estrogen supplementation during menses

> >

> >

> > ÂÂ

> > Hello, dear ladies,

> >

> > I'm reading the posts silently most of the time- and learning a lot in the process. Even if most of what I read is not applicable to me, it still broadens my understanding, plus, I can pass the knowledge to my friends who may need it.

> > I have a question for myself, though, this time.

> > I just added a little estrogen to my regimen and I wonder if what I am experiencing now is normal.

> >

> > The history:

> >

> > Cycling regularly, no misses, no hot flashes, etc. If I'm in the early stages of perimenopause as chronologically I am already in my 40ies, I don't know it. My health markers are pretty young- I took a good care of my health all my life. However, from the onset of menarche and all my life, I had symptoms of estrogen dominance.

> >

> > I have been taking only progesterone cream with great results for about 3 years now. I am taking it in a cyclic manner (2 lines twice daily during the second part of the cycle), but I also add a tad (~10 mg- 0.5 line, once daily) on the `off' days as it really helps me with anxiety, especially during ovulation. That works for me. My body fat is low (I'm an athlete) and I always put the cream on the thinnest skin. No accumulation signs or side effects so far. (Before I even started on progesterone, I took care of my fatigued adrenals â€" I went pretty smart about it.)

> > During these 3 `progesterone' years, I made about 5 attempts to add just a little estrogen â€" since, for myself, I decided, that I will not wait for my levels to drop significantly and will try to keep them as youthful as possible- so that I can keep all my receptors. (Staying young is my main motivation.) None of those earlier attempts worked. My anxiety and rage returned each time I tried to add estrogen. Adding more progesterone on top of that didn't make any difference. So, I gave up for a while, deciding that I likely still had too much of my own to be supplementing. (The blood tests would show 300-400 estr. at ovulation.)

> >

> > The present:

> > Lately, however (~ 3mths ago), I started to experience fatigue and `PMS', plus accentuated hollowed appearance during the menstruation itself. The latest blood test, even though I might not been at the `top' point when I took it), showed the lowest estrogen ever for me- 270. It's very likely that my estrogen is finally starting to dropâ€"and that affected my periods.

> > I read that blunting the significant drop in estrogen just before menses sometimes can help reduce menstrual symptoms. So I decided to attempt adding estrogen again. I added 1 line (1 mg) once a day to raise my baseline and lessen the `drop'. It was a success this time! I felt great. I continued doing 1 line a day- and still doing it now.

> >

> > Now, to the problem. My first cycle with estrogen was perfect. However, my second ended at just 19 days (normally, it's 29 days)

> > Also, I actually saw small pieces of my lining coming out - in fact, this last menses started not with blood per se, but with pieces of lining just falling out of me. Otherwise, I felt fairly well.

> >

> > So, I would appreciate if someone could educate me: Can estrogen make your lining unstable? Why would adding estrogen shorten one's cycle? Before, during my unsuccessful attempts, when I tried it even for a few days, my cycle would become a little longer, not shorter- and, according to my previous understanding, estrogen is supposed to make the lining more stable, grow it more, etc.

> >

> > Thank you in advance for any knowledge/experiences you can share with me,

> > Viki

> >

>