Further bits of transcript relevant to autism

February 21, 2010

.... Part 3, 20:00 min 30:00 min

Cheney: If it were, we¹d see a lot more than 10 million Americans infected

with it, so there must be something that¹s inhibiting the effective

transmission of that agent given those numbers. Ten million versus let¹s say

one million. And also many people infected simply don¹t get sick. At least

they don¹t get sick with CFS..... I¹d like to turn next to that which I

thought was a very interesting and very broad question, Judy, having to do

with what is it about the biology and the pathophysiology of a retrovirus -

let¹s say it that way rather than XMRV it¹s self what is it about the

biology and the pathophysiology of a retrovirus that fits with the syndrome

of CFS? What is it that overlaps what we know about CFS and the possibility

that a retrovirus might actually be causing this illness? Is there something

about XMRV or a retrovirus in general, that fit with what we¹re seeing? And

I¹ve made a sort of a list of things and maybe I¹ll just go through them,

Judy, and see if you either agree or disagree and want to add to it?

.......

NK function seems to define the illness. The very first paper on this was

out of Japan back in 1987 describing what they said was low NK Syndrome

which is CFS back in Japan. And low NK syndrome has been a feature of this

disease. Do you think basically, XMRV can cause low NK function?

Judy: Absolutely. A Natural Killer cell¹s job is to clear viral infected

cells and to clear tumor cells. So if you have a retrovirus present which

unchecked, it¹s continually expressed, and the NK cell can¹t clear it, it

[NK cell] eventually becomes exhausted and of course, the virus can do

something to the NK cell to allow it to persist. So cells whose job it is to

kill virus infected cells can¹t kill XMRV or can¹t clear it, would then have

defective NK cells, a persistent marker of infection.

Cheney: In the Lake Tahoe epidemic many years ago, but also here in my

clinic in Ashville, we frequently see an elevated CD4 to CD8 ratio,

primarily due to CD8 depletion, and I wonder if you might comment. Is CD8

depletion something that XMRV might be able to cause?

Judy: We don¹t see XMRV as a cytotoxic virus, thus far. Certainly, it is

possible through indirect effects, through mediators or what¹s known as

cytokines, we could see dysregulation of the adaptive immune response which

is the CD8 cell. But we don¹t see direct cytopathic. More this virus seems

to be like HTLV-1 and not kill it¹s cells like HIV.

Cheney: The CFS is highly associated with activation of herpes group

viruses, especially EBV, HHV-6 and CMV. I was wondering if XMRV infection is

consistent with the activation of other human herpes viruses that they are

already infected with.

Judy: Yes, because XMRV, the hypothesis is that the virus creates an

underlying immune deficiency, because as you just said, the NK and maybe the

CD8 cells don¹t work so you¹ve got an underlying immune deficiency, so if

your immune system can¹t do it¹s job, so that viruses that you harbor in

your body like EBV and CMV which are near ubiquitous around the world, are

not able to be controlled by an immune system that is not functioning up to

par and actually immune deficient so, the hypothesis is, just like HIV/AIDS,

it creates an underlying immune deficiency. So, as you know, CMV retinitis

is an AIDS defining illness, as is chronic EBV and EBV malignancy. So it

makes perfect sense how a retrovirus can cause an underlying immune

deficiency. Essentially, we see what we see in this disease, not only herpes

viruses but things like chronic lyme, which are also found in CFS cohorts.

Cheney: There¹s a lot of brain involvement in CFS and it comes in the form

of neuro-cognitive complaints; it comes in the form of neuro-behavioral

shifts; it comes in the form of abnormal MRI scans that are typically

non-specific but abnormal; it comes in the form of subtle neurological

findings on exams such as hyper-reflexia and disturbances of the vestibular

apparatus. So my question is, do you think XMRV could be causing

neurological problems like this?

Judy: Oh absolutely, and again we go back to other retroviruses, HTLV-1, in

addition to leukemia that it is causative for, has associated with it a

disease called HTVL-1 associated myelopathy, where it is a myelopathy type

disease. The patients stagger, can¹t walk, end up in wheelchairs, and it is

related directly to viral load but they don¹t understand all of the

mechanisms. Importantly, in XMRV family members and animals??, the envelope

protein actually is a neurotoxin, so parts of the viruses by themselves,

without all the infectious replicating virus, can cause neurotoxicity. We

are actually investigating the envelope protein of this virus as potentially

a neurotoxin.

Cheney: A lot of these patients, if you investigate their immune system,

there¹s evidence of significant activation of the immune system of almost

any parameter that you look at, particularly cytokine elevations of various

kinds and evidence of TGF beta 1 activations. Suggesting the immune system

is really activated and there¹s kind of a counter response trying to tone it

down. Is immune activation, which we almost see universally by cytokine

markers consistent with XMRV infection?

Judy: Well yes, and every other retroviral infection absolutely, Again, it

goes unchecked, so the immune system is trying to do it¹s job, clear the

virus, keep the virus down, and when the virus goes unchecked, it causes the

kind of things we discussed with elevated T cells is the problem. So in the

face of chronic inflammation you develop immune deficiency.

Cheney: And this is sort of a cross-over from the biology and

pathophysiology to infectiousness issue. We see CFS occurring n clusters.

We¹ve seen cluster formations for 25 years. We were involved in a cluster in

Lake Tahoe; a cluster in Yearington; a cluster in Placerville; and

Bell was in a cluster in Lyndonville, NY. We see clusters in school systems.

We see clusters in families. We see clusters in airline attendants. This is

interesting. Is it possible that these clusters could be driven by a

retrovirus?

Judy: Absolutely. It¹s highly possible and we are actively investigating it.

February 21, 2010

I see why you're interested in this:-)) But why are these rotaviruses

seemingly taking over? Maybe I have to read this again.....Which came

first the rotavirus or the poor immune system. Is this rotavirus an

evolved virus or man-made?

Neno/Natasa schrieb:

>

> ... Part 3, 20:00 min – 30:00 min

>

> Cheney: If it were, we’d see a lot more than 10 million Americans

> infected with it, so there must be something that’s inhibiting the

> effective transmission of that agent given those numbers. Ten million

> versus let’s say one million. And also many people infected simply

> don’t get sick. At least they don’t get sick with CFS..... I’d like to

> turn next to that which I thought was a very interesting and very

> broad question, Judy, having to do with what is it about the biology

> and the pathophysiology of a retrovirus - let’s say it that way rather

> than XMRV it’s self – what is it about the biology and the

> pathophysiology of a retrovirus that fits with the syndrome of CFS?

> What is it that overlaps what we know about CFS and the possibility

> that a retrovirus might actually be causing this illness? Is there

> something about XMRV or a retrovirus in general, that fit with what

> we’re seeing? And I’ve made a sort of a list of things and maybe I’ll

> just go through them, Judy, and see if you either agree or disagree

> and want to add to it?

> ......

> NK function seems to define the illness. The very first paper on this

> was out of Japan back in 1987 describing what they said was low NK

> Syndrome which is CFS back in Japan. And low NK syndrome has been a

> feature of this disease. Do you think basically, XMRV can cause low NK

> function?

>

> Judy: Absolutely. A Natural Killer cell’s job is to clear viral

> infected cells and to clear tumor cells. So if you have a retrovirus

> present which unchecked, it’s continually expressed, and the NK cell

> can’t clear it, it [NK cell] eventually becomes exhausted and of

> course, the virus can do something to the NK cell to allow it to

> persist. So cells whose job it is to kill virus infected cells can’t

> kill XMRV or can’t clear it, would then have defective NK cells, a

> persistent marker of infection.

>

> Cheney: In the Lake Tahoe epidemic many years ago, but also here in my

> clinic in Ashville, we frequently see an elevated CD4 to CD8 ratio,

> primarily due to CD8 depletion, and I wonder if you might comment. Is

> CD8 depletion something that XMRV might be able to cause?

>

> Judy: We don’t see XMRV as a cytotoxic virus, thus far. Certainly, it

> is possible through indirect effects, *through mediators or what’s

> known as cytokines, we could see dysregulation of the adaptive immune

> response which is the CD8 cell. But we don’t see direct cytopathic.

> More this virus seems to be like HTLV-1 and not kill it’s cells* like HIV.

>

> Cheney: The CFS is highly associated with activation of herpes group

> viruses, especially EBV, HHV-6 and CMV. I was wondering if XMRV

> infection is consistent with the activation of other human herpes

> viruses that they are already infected with.

>

> Judy: *Yes, because XMRV, the hypothesis is that the virus creates an

> underlying immune deficiency, because as you just said, the NK and

> maybe the CD8 cells don’t work so you’ve got an underlying immune

> deficiency, so if your immune system can’t do it’s job, so that

> viruses that you harbor in your body like EBV and CMV which are near

> ubiquitous around the world, are not able to be controlled by an

> immune system that is not functioning up to par and actually immune

> deficient so, the hypothesis is, just like HIV/AIDS, it creates an

> underlying immune deficiency*. So, as you know, CMV retinitis is an

> AIDS defining illness, as is chronic EBV and EBV malignancy. So it

> makes perfect sense how a retrovirus can cause an underlying immune

> deficiency. Essentially, we see what we see in this disease, not only

> herpes viruses but things like chronic lyme, which are also found in

> CFS cohorts.

>

> Cheney: *There’s a lot of brain involvement in CFS and it comes in the

> form of neuro-cognitive complaints; it comes in the form of

> neuro-behavioral shifts; it comes in the form of abnormal MRI scans

> that are typically non-specific but abnormal; it comes in the form of

> subtle neurological findings on exams such as hyper-reflexia and

> disturbances of the vestibular apparatus. So my question is, do you

> think XMRV could be causing neurological problems like this?

>

> Judy: Oh absolutely, and again we go back to other retroviruses*,

> HTLV-1, in addition to leukemia that it is causative for, has

> associated with it a disease called HTVL-1 associated myelopathy,

> where it is a myelopathy type disease. The patients stagger, can’t

> walk, end up in wheelchairs, and it is related directly to viral load

> but they don’t understand all of the mechanisms. Importantly, in XMRV

> family members and animals??, *the envelope protein actually is a

> neurotoxin, so parts of the viruses by themselves, without all the

> infectious replicating virus, can cause neurotoxicity. We are actually

> investigating the envelope protein of this virus as potentially a

> neurotoxin.

> *

> Cheney: A lot of these patients, if you investigate their immune

> system, *there’s evidence of significant activation of the immune

> system of almost any parameter that you look at, particularly cytokine

> elevations of various kinds and evidence of TGF beta 1 activations.

> Suggesting the immune system is really activated and there’s kind of a

> counter response trying to tone it down. Is immune activation, which

> we almost see universally by cytokine markers consistent with XMRV

> infection?

>

> Judy: Well yes, and every other retroviral infection absolutely*,

> Again, it goes unchecked, so the immune system is trying to do it’s

> job, clear the virus, keep the virus down, and when the virus goes

> unchecked, it causes the kind of things we discussed with elevated T

> cells is the problem. So in the face of chronic inflammation you

> develop immune deficiency.

>

> Cheney: And this is sort of a cross-over from the biology and

> pathophysiology to infectiousness issue. We see CFS occurring n

> clusters. We’ve seen cluster formations for 25 years. We were involved

> in a cluster in Lake Tahoe; a cluster in Yearington; a cluster in

> Placerville; and Bell was in a cluster in Lyndonville, NY. *We

> see clusters in school systems. We see clusters in families. We see

> clusters in airline attendants*. This is interesting. Is it possible

> that these clusters could be driven by a retrovirus?

>

> Judy: Absolutely. It’s highly possible and we are actively

> investigating it.

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

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19:34:00

>

February 21, 2010

it jumped from mice (harmless in mice) to humans within the last 100 years.

not rotavirus, retrovirus – bit difference. Yes it can mess up a previously perfectly healthy immune system. Just like HIV, but less dramatically/fast.

spreads like hiv in humans.

Why now? Think about the first sentence. Do not mention the V word