Guest guest Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 Thanks, Liz. Alas, my gastro guy is happily married, but he's still mighty nice eye candy. <evil grin> Sam (don't tell my sweetie pie guy) ===== > Ok, good to know! Maybe I should head your way to visit your GI doc! :-) > I hope you feel better soon! I know the misery of GI stuff. I live with it > 24/7. > The pills are not forever :-))) > > > > >> >> >> >> >> >> Pain under the right ribs at the bottom, and burning between the boobs >> when swallowing, plus inability to digest or keep food down. Black tarry >> stools and vomiting blood and spitting up bloody phlegm are danger signs >> to call an ambulance. I also had massive adrenal symptoms. >> >> I'm taking Prilosec twice daily plus liquid Carafate so I can eat and >> drink. I can't keep stuff down without that crap for the time being. >> I hate pills and medicine, but I have a hottie gastroenterologist. >> >> Sam >> >> ===== >>> > I have a list of syndromes........... Ha!! >>> > Sam, what does a duodenal ulcer feel like? I have bile reflux and >>> burn >>> > everywhere. >>> > Liz >>> > >>> > >>> > On 6/28/12 6:25 PM, " gaelgreen@... <mailto:gaelgreen%40aol.com> " >>> <gaelgreen@... <mailto:gaelgreen%40aol.com> > wrote: >>> > >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> When I worked in the medical field, I quickly learned that they do >>>> see >>>> >> people >>>> >> as organs and syndromes. >>>> >> >>>> >> I bet they loved you, though. >>>> >> >>>> >> Gael >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> In a message dated 6/28/2012 6:07:06 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, >>>> >> k9gang@... <mailto:k9gang%40openaccess.org> writes: >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> <grin> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> I didn't know I had that either. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> And then there were these 3 wide eyed excited doctors (like a >>>>> bunch of >>>>> >>> 8yr >>>>> >>> olds) standing at the foot of my bed in the ICU telling me " I " >>>>> am the >>>>> >>> biggest duodenal ulcer they'd ever seen in their lives. I didn't >>>>> know >>>>> >>> I >>>>> >>> was an ulcer...I thought I was just a bratty grandma. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Sam >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> ===== >>>>>>> >>>> > Sam, it's so good to see you again, that's what I meant. I >>>>>>> didn't >>>>>> >>>> know >>>>>>> >>>> > you had a bleeding ulcer. Yow. So glad you're >>>>>> >>>> recovered/recovering! >>>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>>> >>>> > Gael >>>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>>> >>>> > In a message dated 6/28/2012 5:48:30 P.M. Pacific Daylight >>>>>>> Time, >>>>>>> >>>> > k9gang@... <mailto:k9gang%40openaccess.org> >>>>>>> <mailto:k9gang%40openaccess.org> writes: >>>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>>> >>>> > I wasn't gone, I just had nothing much to say - sort of >>>>>>> still >>>>>> >>>> recovering >>>>>>> >>>> > from a Godzilla sized bleeding duodenal ulcer and a 50% >>>>>>> ulcerated >>>>>>> >>>> > esophagus... >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> > >>> > >> >> >> >> >> > > > > Liz Vernand > Channel Islands Sportfishing Center > 4151 S. Ave. > Oxnard, CA 93035 > http://channelislandssportfishing.com/ > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 And don’t tell my husband!! :-))))) Thanks, Liz. Alas, my gastro guy is happily married, but he's still mighty nice eye candy. <evil grin> Sam (don't tell my sweetie pie guy) ===== > Ok, good to know! Maybe I should head your way to visit your GI doc! :-) > I hope you feel better soon! I know the misery of GI stuff. I live with it > 24/7. > The pills are not forever :-))) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 Hi Sam,Wow.Hope you are feeling better!NoraReply-To: <rhythmicliving >Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 17:48:18 -0700 (PDT)To: <rhythmicliving >Subject: Re: Megase I wasn't gone, I just had nothing much to say - sort of still recovering from a Godzilla sized bleeding duodenal ulcer and a 50% ulcerated esophagus... And speaking of symptoms, I certainly had a lot of them, but had no idea they pointed to a growing and potentially deadly ulcer. But now that I've deciphered what those symptoms mean, I can now seek appropriate help if it happens again. That's sort of the way I learned how to decipher my own unique symptoms of sex hormone deprivation. Sam ===== > Hi Sam, so good to see you back! > > What I meant is that there is NO NEED for any MD to RX P if you don't have > a uterus. I keep repeating over and over that we are all different > chemically and some of us will need a little of this, that and the other > that > others may not need. > > I have tried very tiny amounts of P and just can't tolerate it at all. I > don't have a uterus. I had the same results with P when I did have a > uterus. Either I am making enough on my own, or my body at this point in > my > life doesn't require it, or very little of it. My tested levels of P are > very > very low, about .05. > > I also believe in dosing by symptoms, but sometimes it's very hard to > figure out just where the symptoms are coming from. > > Gael > > > > > In a message dated 6/28/2012 10:11:48 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > k9gang@... writes: > > > > > Hang on there, what do you mean "If you don't have a uterus you don't > need P"??? Progesterone is used in many processes in the body, not just > to > "protect"(?) the uterus. It's important to keep that in mind. > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progesterone) > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progesterone#Biosynthesis) > > Another thing I'm still curious about after all these years is: > if you still have ovaries and adrenal glands, how do you all know you > actually need to supplement progesterone? Do you test first (if so, > how?), > do you go by symptoms (my fav), dose merely because you still have a > uterus, go by heresay or the fear factor, or what? > > I ask this stuff because some of you get dreadful symptoms just > supplementing a weeny bit of P. If "I" had those types of symptoms when > supplementing P, it means that "I" am overdosing myself. > > FWIW, I've been without my uterus/ovaries since 1973 and dose my > transdermal BHRT entirely by symptoms. > > Sam > (great granny of a 2yr old) > > ===== >> Gael, >> >> If you don't have a uterus you don't need P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 I am sorry you are having such a rough time. But, I would appreciate it if you would limit your language. Thank you. > > > > > > > Liz: > > I am so glad to hear that surgical menopause was not as bad as what I am > > enduring now. I did talk to my oncologist about hormone replacement at least > > for a while, not sure what will be effective. > > Liz I am not sure how they diagnosed you with endometrial cancer. Since I do > > not have cancer as far as they know, they staging is done at the time of > > hysterectomy. I actually did what you said, the keeping the eye on the uterus > > for 6 years. I am very conscious of everything and even the oncologist says, > > I have no idea how you seem to catch it every time, she said she would not be > > able to even in herself. I have had 6 D and C's, eventually the oncologist > > said look I am not happy doing this constantly mostly because of the exposure > > to the anesthesia, so a biopsy will have to do. I go every six months > > religiously. It has returned 4 times in six years (once because of the > > estrodiol in the fertility meds. The oncologist is not comfortable with > > letting this go on but it is my choice. She told me, with a straight face, > > look, this I can cure, if you have cancer, or it turns into cancer, I am not > > so sure I can cure it and then I have to give you chemo that will make you > > lose your hair, make you very very sick and maybe even radiation. Here is the > > big thing she said, " If you were my sister I would tell you it is time. " > > > > Now realize, it is the constant estrogen dominance that contributed to the > > complex atypia, along with the fact that I never had children, I never smoked, > > never took birth control pills and I have a very high genetic disposition to > > obesity, although I was obese a very small portion of my life. To be honest, > > I have a very highly stressed life and I think that is most of what is causing > > this rapid cell turnover with errors. > > > > The great thing is that I am really " healthy " in spite of all this. I have > > heard of women who had to quit their jobs and stay in bed because of this drug > > but I work three jobs. Don't ask me how. I have actually lost weight on the > > drug (well the third time, not this time) and I am glad to say my hormones are > > within normal levels. I do think my adrenals are shot, megase can do that but > > after the second round, that was after the fertility treatments, I went to an > > endocrinologist specifically to check my cortisol levels. It was at the very > > low end in fact was on the low end and he said well it is still within normal > > limits, what do you want me to do, as I crawled out of his office barely able > > to walk. So thanks for the hormone tips K9 but unless it is sub-clinical > > which it might be my thyroid is fine. > > > > Now ladies please understand I have also been a vegan for 15 years, no wheat > > for 10 years and no soy for 6 years. Oh and I am not a junk food vegan, in > > fact everything that goes into my mouth is for a reason mostly antioxidants > > and anti carcinogenic substances. So that might be part of it. I also take a > > variety of supplements. > > > > So has anyone successfully eliminated progesterone from their bodies in a > > rapid fashion without symptoms? > > > > E > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Liz Vernand > Channel Islands Sportfishing Center > 4151 S. Ave. > Oxnard, CA 93035 > http://channelislandssportfishing.com/ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 Hello,I'm sorry but I'm not understanding your request. Liz I am sorry you are having such a rough time. But, I would appreciate it if you would limit your language. Thank you. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 Liz: You asked why I was " tortured " and why you were never told by your doctor to use synthetic progesterone. The reason why is because you were already diagnosed with invasive cancer when you were 39. Stage 1B which I assume was found on biopsy prompts the doctors to suggest immediate hysterectomy. It is not that your type of cancer could not spread or metastasize, it did not spread which is why you were no offered any treatment afterward. Stage 1B means that it went into the myometrium, the muscle of the uterus but no further. Were you diagnosed with 1B post hysterectomy or pre? Please do not take this the wrong way, and I know this sounds strange but it a way your diagnosis was a better diagnosis than mine. Isn't that crazy but the truth is that your diagnosis was definitive. Mine on the other hand, not so definitive. And, forgive me if I am wrong, you said you already had children. I did not and have not. If you did not have children, you can see why it is difficult to make the decision to end your reproductive life based on conjecture. I am not sure why you tried bioidentical cream pre-hysterectomy. What did you think it was going to do? Were you trying to balance hormones? Two weeks out of a cycle is trying to mimic a cycle. When you take progesterone extend reproductive life it is not for two weeks, it is high doses of P for months, sometimes years. I made sure that I didn't have to do that, 3 months at a time, and I used every natural and synthetic protocol with it to mitigate symptoms and control estrogen utilization. The onco told me, some of her patients are on megase for years. I looked at her stunned (I can barely stand it for 3 months) and she always wrote down everything I did, always shocked that I was off it so fast. I am very familiar with Dr. Lee's work, and while I would loved to have treated this with " bioidentical " hormones he even told me, remember I told you I knew him, that the problem with compounded bioidentical hormones is that we cannot control how the body will react to the bioidentical hormone and it is harder to control dosing. Some people will absorb a lot, like what happened with the gel you tried, and some people it doesn't effect at all. I see this with my own patients using progesterone cream. I always tell them start with a minuscule drop because I have seen immediate changes even with that kind of dosing. You are right, some people do not do well on it. But remember controlling the symptoms of menopause is an entirely different scenario than managing cancer. You had mentioned that you thought they were " preventing " cancer with the megase. No, not at all. They were extending my reproductive life. The only " cure " for this is if I got pregnant. Pregnancy is such a naturally high progesterone state for such a long period of time that many times it reverses atypia, even complex atypia. Unfortunately, this didn't happen for me, and the fact that someone mentioned that being a vegan will cause infertility is preposterous. Starving people in third world countries become pregnant. And... I am a ultra healthy vegan! Not a junk food vegan. I am not sure why people think that bioidentical is superior to synthetic. In a way, it is all synthetic, once you take it out of the plant it no longer has the properties that might assist. Take wild yam, highly estrogenic, however, extract what we think is the active ingredients that would help menopause and now you have a drug. Like any and all plants every crop is different, depending on the soil the chemicals used and the growing season. Lets use an example like marijuana. The reason why I am using this example is because the plant is directly used and the THC, the active ingredient is not taken out in the lab in most uses. Some crops have more THC than others. In fact it is never consistent. Now did big pharma make a pill out of it, sure, well now we call it synthetic. The dosing for glaucoma is now regulated. Can people still have the same effects by taking the pill form, yes, getting high, getting the munchies. Does that make the drug " bad " because it is synthetic? I am no drug advocate, in fact the other way around, big time. I would rather take anything in is whole form because I think that there are compounds in the plant that we extract that help regulate it in our bodies. Don't get me started on GMO's. The reason why I bring this up is to answer your question. It was not " if " I get cancer. Again someone mentioned that Complex atypia is not cancer, (not you Liz) geesh, wrong again! The real diagnosis is carcinoma-in situ, here is the wiki definition...Carcinoma in situ (CIS) is an early form of cancer that is defined by the absence of invasion of tumor cells into the surrounding tissue, usually before penetration through the basement membrane. In other words, the neoplastic cells proliferate in their normal habitat, hence the name " in situ " (Latin for " in its place " ). So yes complex atypia is considered cancer and is treated just like stage 1A. You spoke of protocol this is the protocol for complex endometrial atypia : Hyperplasia with atypia For women who have hyperplasia with atypia and are postmenopausal, or are premenopausal but do not plan to bear any more children, hysterectomy with adnexal removal is urgently recommended, in view of these patients' estimated 30% risk of developing an invasive carcinoma. Moreover, studies have shown that about 30% of women who had no worse histological finding than hyperplasia with atypia in their curettage specimen already have invasive carcinoma in their hysterectomy specimen (7) (evidence level II). A conservative approach is feasible for women who still wish to bear children and for women who are at elevated operative risk. Women who have hyperplasia with atypia should receive relatively high-dosed gestagen therapy (e.g., medroxyprogesterone acetate 100 mg/day, megestrol acetate 60 mg/day). A gestagen-containing intrauterine device can be used in this situation as well. The prerequisites for conservative treatment are comprehension and compliance on the patient's part and meticulous follow-up by the treating gynecologist. Even after initial remission under gestagen therapy, recurrences ranging from atypia to invasive carcinoma will develop in about one-third of cases (8). Thus, the response to conservative treatment must be checked by hysteroscopy and curettage after three to six months of conservative treatment. Now here is the difference from what you were diagnosed with: Invasive carcinoma Even some women with invasive carcinoma can be offered the option of a trial of conservative treatment, if they are premenopausal and still wish to bear children, and if the histological finding is of a well-differentiated carcinoma (grade I) without suspicion of myometrial invasion. Candidates for such fertility-preserving treatment must be informed of the 25% primary failure rate and the roughly 30% chance of recurrence associated with it, because of which they will need frequent clinical follow-up (8). A prerequisite for such treatment is the exclusion of myometrial infiltration or ovarian involvement by transvaginal ultrasonography and/or magnetic resonance imaging. Complete emptying of the cavum uteri by hysteroscopy and curettage is advisable for both diagnostic and therapeutic purposes. Laparoscopy should be considered for further exclusion of extrauterine disease, particularly because endometrioid ovarian carcinoma is a common simultaneous finding (in up to 25% of cases) and is often hard to identify in imaging studies (e2). The pharmacotherapy of choice is continuous oral gestagen intake (megesterol acetate 160 mg/day, medroxyprogesterone acetate 200 to 250 mg/day), for a period of at least three months; a follow-up investigation is then performed with transvaginal ultrasonography, hysteroscopy, and curettage. Women found to be in complete remission can try to conceive; the optimal time window for this remains unknown. Because of the high probability of recurrence after conservative treatment, these women are advised to undergo hysterectomy once they have born as many children as they wish to have (8) (evidence level IV). The difference that you had is the myometrial invasion and the reason for oophorectomy is above. (Oh and by the way it seems that someone on this chat (not you Liz) didn't know that oophorectomy means removal of the ovaries and female castration. I guess I had to clarify that but I think this person said she was in the medical field, really? I did not make this up I am getting this from German research. " The Diagnosis and Treatment of Endometrial Cancer " Progress and Controversies Dominik Denschlag, Prof. Dr. med.,*,1 Uwe Ulrich, Prof. Dr. med.,2 and Günter Emons, Prof. Dr. med.3 No, odds are I will never have to take this drug again post hysterectomy, especially if they do not find invasive cancer. This drug is also given to women who have a recurrence of cancer (primary uterine) post hysterectomy, more in women who have this type of cancer post menopausal. The good thing for you and I is that with pre-menopausal uterine cancer stage one the recurrence is slim to none. But, surgical menopause has it's own crosses to bear as you are well aware. From the studies I have read, it is beneficial to take hormones after surgical hysterectomy. Now talk about a diverse amount of research and more opinions than I am hair! The only thing that makes me really sad is that 600,000 women have a hysterectomies and unlike you and I, 2/3 are unnecessary. That floors me. E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 Thank you for this, E. To bad I wasn’t more informed. By the time I knew what was happening pre hyst, the Progesterone had affected my mind. I could not think AT ALL. And I will remind you (not in a harsh way :-)) that for months after starting the transdermal P, I told my drs something was wrong and was told it was not. I even had ultrasounds and MRI’s. The last ultrasound I had before I got diagnosed by another dr, showed a tumor but I was told it was a fibroid and that was what was causing the bleeding. That was the time I ran fast from the NP and found the dr who diagnosed me. For all I know, at the first sign of something amiss with my period, a biopsy could have been performed and it might have been caught before the tumor got big. The endometrial biopsy showed cells, and no one suggested the “fibroid” found on the ultrasound was a cancerous tumor but I did not get staged until post hyst. I did not have children at the time but was not planning on it, so that was not a factor. But the fear of God was put into me. I never went to an oncologist as the advice given to me was I didn’t need to as it was what it was. I had a gyn oncologist doing his part in the surgery, but I never met him. I was never given any options, suggestions, studies, nothing. I trusted that they all knew what they were doing. Big wake up call to me. Anyways, it is what it is now and life moves forward :-) I can say that many blessings have come out of my journey. I’ve met tons of awesome people. :-)) I just want you to know, I have not been pushing back or trying to be argumentive with you. I am fascinated by your story, actually. I am not one to judge, (most of the time and work hard at being completely non judgmental) I might come across as being angry or bitchy, but really it’s more frustration towards myself because I feel like IF I had known more, I wouldn’t be where I am now, in constant GI pain, no girlie parts and feeling like I”m always just in survival mode. As for Dr. Lee, very cool that you knew him! What I find sad is that, if what you say is true, his work or theory or findings seemed to be misinterpreted and natural drs, lay people, etc, and are not using the information correctly. Again, the reason I went on the transdermal P in the first place (I knew nothing and trusted the NP). Was because I was feeling different hormonally and she obviously didn’t know crap. Looking back at her care of me, it was atrocious. I was one who did not benefit from the P. At the time, oral OR synthetic was never offered and I didn’t know to ask. It took one cycle and my mind was shot. Keep sharing! I for one, am learning tons! Liz Liz: You asked why I was " tortured " and why you were never told by your doctor to use synthetic progesterone. The reason why is because you were already diagnosed with invasive cancer when you were 39. Stage 1B which I assume was found on biopsy prompts the doctors to suggest immediate hysterectomy. It is not that your type of cancer could not spread or metastasize, it did not spread which is why you were no offered any treatment afterward. Stage 1B means that it went into the myometrium, the muscle of the uterus but no further. Were you diagnosed with 1B post hysterectomy or pre? Please do not take this the wrong way, and I know this sounds strange but it a way your diagnosis was a better diagnosis than mine. Isn't that crazy but the truth is that your diagnosis was definitive. Mine on the other hand, not so definitive. And, forgive me if I am wrong, you said you already had children. I did not and have not. If you did not have children, you can see why it is difficult to make the decision to end your reproductive life based on conjecture. I am not sure why you tried bioidentical cream pre-hysterectomy. What did you think it was going to do? Were you trying to balance hormones? Two weeks out of a cycle is trying to mimic a cycle. When you take progesterone extend reproductive life it is not for two weeks, it is high doses of P for months, sometimes years. I made sure that I didn't have to do that, 3 months at a time, and I used every natural and synthetic protocol with it to mitigate symptoms and control estrogen utilization. The onco told me, some of her patients are on megase for years. I looked at her stunned (I can barely stand it for 3 months) and she always wrote down everything I did, always shocked that I was off it so fast. I am very familiar with Dr. Lee's work, and while I would loved to have treated this with " bioidentical " hormones he even told me, remember I told you I knew him, that the problem with compounded bioidentical hormones is that we cannot control how the body will react to the bioidentical hormone and it is harder to control dosing. Some people will absorb a lot, like what happened with the gel you tried, and some people it doesn't effect at all. I see this with my own patients using progesterone cream. I always tell them start with a minuscule drop because I have seen immediate changes even with that kind of dosing. You are right, some people do not do well on it. But remember controlling the symptoms of menopause is an entirely different scenario than managing cancer. You had mentioned that you thought they were " preventing " cancer with the megase. No, not at all. They were extending my reproductive life. The only " cure " for this is if I got pregnant. Pregnancy is such a naturally high progesterone state for such a long period of time that many times it reverses atypia, even complex atypia. Unfortunately, this didn't happen for me, and the fact that someone mentioned that being a vegan will cause infertility is preposterous. Starving people in third world countries become pregnant. And... I am a ultra healthy vegan! Not a junk food vegan. I am not sure why people think that bioidentical is superior to synthetic. In a way, it is all synthetic, once you take it out of the plant it no longer has the properties that might assist. Take wild yam, highly estrogenic, however, extract what we think is the active ingredients that would help menopause and now you have a drug. Like any and all plants every crop is different, depending on the soil the chemicals used and the growing season. Lets use an example like marijuana. The reason why I am using this example is because the plant is directly used and the THC, the active ingredient is not taken out in the lab in most uses. Some crops have more THC than others. In fact it is never consistent. Now did big pharma make a pill out of it, sure, well now we call it synthetic. The dosing for glaucoma is now regulated. Can people still have the same effects by taking the pill form, yes, getting high, getting the munchies. Does that make the drug " bad " because it is synthetic? I am no drug advocate, in fact the other way around, big time. I would rather take anything in is whole form because I think that there are compounds in the plant that we extract that help regulate it in our bodies. Don't get me started on GMO's. The reason why I bring this up is to answer your question. It was not " if " I get cancer. Again someone mentioned that Complex atypia is not cancer, (not you Liz) geesh, wrong again! The real diagnosis is carcinoma-in situ, here is the wiki definition...Carcinoma in situ (CIS) is an early form of cancer that is defined by the absence of invasion of tumor cells into the surrounding tissue, usually before penetration through the basement membrane. In other words, the neoplastic cells proliferate in their normal habitat, hence the name " in situ " (Latin for " in its place " ). So yes complex atypia is considered cancer and is treated just like stage 1A. You spoke of protocol this is the protocol for complex endometrial atypia : Hyperplasia with atypia For women who have hyperplasia with atypia and are postmenopausal, or are premenopausal but do not plan to bear any more children, hysterectomy with adnexal removal is urgently recommended, in view of these patients' estimated 30% risk of developing an invasive carcinoma. Moreover, studies have shown that about 30% of women who had no worse histological finding than hyperplasia with atypia in their curettage specimen already have invasive carcinoma in their hysterectomy specimen (7) (evidence level II). A conservative approach is feasible for women who still wish to bear children and for women who are at elevated operative risk. Women who have hyperplasia with atypia should receive relatively high-dosed gestagen therapy (e.g., medroxyprogesterone acetate 100 mg/day, megestrol acetate 60 mg/day). A gestagen-containing intrauterine device can be used in this situation as well. The prerequisites for conservative treatment are comprehension and compliance on the patient's part and meticulous follow-up by the treating gynecologist. Even after initial remission under gestagen therapy, recurrences ranging from atypia to invasive carcinoma will develop in about one-third of cases (8). Thus, the response to conservative treatment must be checked by hysteroscopy and curettage after three to six months of conservative treatment. Now here is the difference from what you were diagnosed with: Invasive carcinoma Even some women with invasive carcinoma can be offered the option of a trial of conservative treatment, if they are premenopausal and still wish to bear children, and if the histological finding is of a well-differentiated carcinoma (grade I) without suspicion of myometrial invasion. Candidates for such fertility-preserving treatment must be informed of the 25% primary failure rate and the roughly 30% chance of recurrence associated with it, because of which they will need frequent clinical follow-up (8). A prerequisite for such treatment is the exclusion of myometrial infiltration or ovarian involvement by transvaginal ultrasonography and/or magnetic resonance imaging. Complete emptying of the cavum uteri by hysteroscopy and curettage is advisable for both diagnostic and therapeutic purposes. Laparoscopy should be considered for further exclusion of extrauterine disease, particularly because endometrioid ovarian carcinoma is a common simultaneous finding (in up to 25% of cases) and is often hard to identify in imaging studies (e2). The pharmacotherapy of choice is continuous oral gestagen intake (megesterol acetate 160 mg/day, medroxyprogesterone acetate 200 to 250 mg/day), for a period of at least three months; a follow-up investigation is then performed with transvaginal ultrasonography, hysteroscopy, and curettage. Women found to be in complete remission can try to conceive; the optimal time window for this remains unknown. Because of the high probability of recurrence after conservative treatment, these women are advised to undergo hysterectomy once they have born as many children as they wish to have (8) (evidence level IV). The difference that you had is the myometrial invasion and the reason for oophorectomy is above. (Oh and by the way it seems that someone on this chat (not you Liz) didn't know that oophorectomy means removal of the ovaries and female castration. I guess I had to clarify that but I think this person said she was in the medical field, really? I did not make this up I am getting this from German research. " The Diagnosis and Treatment of Endometrial Cancer " Progress and Controversies Dominik Denschlag, Prof. Dr. med.,*,1 Uwe Ulrich, Prof. Dr. med.,2 and Günter Emons, Prof. Dr. med.3 No, odds are I will never have to take this drug again post hysterectomy, especially if they do not find invasive cancer. This drug is also given to women who have a recurrence of cancer (primary uterine) post hysterectomy, more in women who have this type of cancer post menopausal. The good thing for you and I is that with pre-menopausal uterine cancer stage one the recurrence is slim to none. But, surgical menopause has it's own crosses to bear as you are well aware. From the studies I have read, it is beneficial to take hormones after surgical hysterectomy. Now talk about a diverse amount of research and more opinions than I am hair! The only thing that makes me really sad is that 600,000 women have a hysterectomies and unlike you and I, 2/3 are unnecessary. That floors me. E Liz Vernand Channel Islands Sportfishing Center 4151 S. Ave. Oxnard, CA 93035 http://channelislandssportfishing.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 I'm certainly convinced that bio-identicals are FAR superior to the synthetics based on my own personal experiences. I use the bio-identicals because I enjoy staying alive. Sam ===== " spinenwine " wrote: I am not sure why people think that bioidentical is superior to synthetic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Is that the kind of answer you give to someone who is taking synthetics to extend their reproductive life when they have cancer? You certainly don't die from synthetic progesterone. I am glad you had good experiences with bio-identicals however because the research is mostly anecdotal , it is not used in cancer because of its inconsistencies. Ellen > I am not sure why people think that bioidentical is superior to synthetic. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Oh Liz: There is totally no push back from you at all! Other chat members comments could be made with more compassion for what people go through, and not so much in the way of judgement. That is just my opinion. Please do not feel bad that you were not more " well informed " as you say. The information was not out there 13 years ago. I had to find all the info myself, no one gives you anything. They barely know themselves. Look, when I went to Sloan, the head of the department had never seen what I was presenting with. The oncologist that I decided to work with only worked with 12 patients that had what I had. 12? In all of NYC only 12? But that was a lot at the time and that was only 6 years ago. One oncologist that I went to had the same research on his desk that I read myself, a small study in Japan. His only comment to me was that it was too bad I didn't have children already. There is a lot more out there now, partially because of what Fran Drescher went through and partially because of the 12 like me and I guess I was lucky number 13! I was in one of the studies that contributed to the information out there. It is interesting that you had a gut feeling that something was wrong. I have heard that from many patients, they just know. Breast cancer patients just know even when their mammo's are clear. They beg the doc for an MRI and well there it is! My gut, for myself is there is just nothing wrong. I know you are suppose to trust your doctor but I don't trust. They have their agendas and that might not be my agenda. I know for sure that my oncologist listens but definitely takes out organs pre-disease. So I have to take what she says with a grain of salt. She knows how I feel. I also take the responsibility upon myself to deal with the decisions I make. I chose a life of incredible stress, which I believe caused the changes in my body. I have to deal with the consequences and make decisions accordingly. The side effects from the treatments, the hysterectomy, etc, I have to find. Doctors want to help they really do but they don't always know what to do. I can see your frustration, running to doctors asking for help and they just don't know what to do for you. I know how to sort through the medical jargon but I don't know how someone who does not can do all that and know what to ask for. I had to take off a day from work and go down and tell my oncologist the biochemistry of another drug to mitigate the side effects of the Megase. She did not want to give it to me. After the discussion she did, but really? I had to take off a day from work to do that? Many people have to quit their jobs while taking the Megase, I have three jobs and did not have the option of doing that. Thanks for appreciating my experience and allowing me to share with you. Ellen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Say what? You said you weren't sure why people think bioidentical is superior to synthetic, so I told you why I did, based on my own personal experience (giving my body back that which it actually needs but doesn't have or have enough of). I really was NOT happy with the migrains, breast lumps, painful joints, hair loss, etc that the synthetics " gave " me (read the side effects/warnings in their respective product inserts). Anecdotal " research " ? You mean anecdotal " evidence " ? When you have the exact same consistent anecdotal evidence reported by more than a few thousand people year after year, does that not then become evidence (with respect to whomever initially said that)? Or do we still rely on the intermittent big pharma funded genetically modified rat/mouse study? For cancer, I think reversing the underlying iodine deficiency should be considered. www.breastcancerchoices.org/iodineindex.html Sam > > I am not sure why people think that bioidentical is superior to synthetic. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Ellen, I am curious about why you think complex hyperplasia with atypia is cancer. I had that and it was watched for a long time, over a year, with no mention made of megase whatever. I was told that bioidentical progesterone, in doses I wasn't willing to take, would probably take care of it. I had two D & C's, which reduced the hyperplasia. I eventually made the choice to have a TAH, with ovaries left intact. At no time was I rushed into that decision, through THREE doctors, and at NO point was I told that I needed to take a synthetic progesterone. There is something odd about your story, or something I'm not understanding. I hope that you get a resolution on your problems and that all turns out well. Respectfully, Gael Is that the kind of answer you give to someone who is taking synthetics to extend their reproductive life when they have cancer?You certainly don't die from synthetic progesterone.I am glad you had good experiences with bio-identicals however because the research is mostly anecdotal , it is not used in cancer because of its inconsistencies.Ellen> I am not sure why people think that bioidentical is superior to synthetic.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 We are not talking about breast cancer, we are talking about uterine cancer. Ellen > > > I am not sure why people think that bioidentical is superior to synthetic. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Gael: I have some severe side effects from megase, not untold misery. I feel sorry for those who have untold misery. I was paraphrasing what someone else said about the Wiley protocol. It has nothing to do with believing anyway. This is the protocol for uterine cancer to preserve fertility and postpone surgical menopause. I wanted to ask you how long ago was your diagnosis if you don't mind sharing and if you went to an oncologist. In my experience, the gynocologists that I was dealing with, even a few friends who are gynocologists never came across anyone who had complex atypia and when they looked it up just like I did the first course of action is hysterectomy. Only a few gyno oncologists knew about the studies with progesterone and that was 6 years ago. Now it is protocol as you saw in my other postings. You said even if the progesterone was offered to you, you wouldn't of done it anyway. But at least you would of had a choice and your doctor would have informed you of all options which I always think is important. There is a very high risk of complex atypia converting to cancer or having concurrent cancer that they cannot diagnose until post hysterectomy like with Liz. I am glad you never had to deal with that and it was only atypia. That is the best possible outcome. Ellen > > > > > > > > > > > Liz: > > > I am so glad to hear that surgical menopause was not as bad as what I > am > > > enduring now. I did talk to my oncologist about hormone replacement at > least > > > for a while, not sure what will be effective. > > > Liz I am not sure how they diagnosed you with endometrial cancer. > Since I do > > > not have cancer as far as they know, they staging is done at the time > of > > > hysterectomy. I actually did what you said, the keeping the eye on the > uterus > > > for 6 years. I am very conscious of everything and even the oncologist > says, > > > I have no idea how you seem to catch it every time, she said she would > not be > > > able to even in herself. I have had 6 D and C's, eventually the > oncologist > > > said look I am not happy doing this constantly mostly because of the > exposure > > > to the anesthesia, so a biopsy will have to do. I go every six months > > > religiously. It has returned 4 times in six years (once because of the > > > estrodiol in the fertility meds. The oncologist is not comfortable > with > > > letting this go on but it is my choice. She told me, with a straight > face, > > > look, this I can cure, if you have cancer, or it turns into cancer, I > am not > > > so sure I can cure it and then I have to give you chemo that will make > you > > > lose your hair, make you very very sick and maybe even radiation. Here > is the > > > big thing she said, " If you were my sister I would tell you it is > time. " > > > > > > Now realize, it is the constant estrogen dominance that contributed to > the > > > complex atypia, along with the fact that I never had children, I never > smoked, > > > never took birth control pills and I have a very high genetic > disposition to > > > obesity, although I was obese a very small portion of my life. To be > honest, > > > I have a very highly stressed life and I think that is most of what is > causing > > > this rapid cell turnover with errors. > > > > > > The great thing is that I am really " healthy " in spite of all this. I > have > > > heard of women who had to quit their jobs and stay in bed because of > this drug > > > but I work three jobs. Don't ask me how. I have actually lost weight > on the > > > drug (well the third time, not this time) and I am glad to say my > hormones are > > > within normal levels. I do think my adrenals are shot, megase can do > that but > > > after the second round, that was after the fertility treatments, I > went to an > > > endocrinologist specifically to check my cortisol levels. It was at > the very > > > low end in fact was on the low end and he said well it is still within > normal > > > limits, what do you want me to do, as I crawled out of his office > barely able > > > to walk. So thanks for the hormone tips K9 but unless it is > sub-clinical > > > which it might be my thyroid is fine. > > > > > > Now ladies please understand I have also been a vegan for 15 years, no > wheat > > > for 10 years and no soy for 6 years. Oh and I am not a junk food > vegan, in > > > fact everything that goes into my mouth is for a reason mostly > antioxidants > > > and anti carcinogenic substances. So that might be part of it. I also > take a > > > variety of supplements. > > > > > > So has anyone successfully eliminated progesterone from their bodies > in a > > > rapid fashion without symptoms? > > > > > > E > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Liz Vernand > > Channel Islands Sportfishing Center > > 4151 S. Ave. > > Oxnard, CA 93035 > > _http://channelislandssportfishing.com/_ > (http://channelislandssportfishing.com/) > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Uterine, breast, thyroid, prostate, ovarian, testicular, etc are iodine deficiency disorders. The iodine section of breastcancerchoices.org has useful and invaluable information about said element. Sam ps - where is your practice? > We are not talking about breast cancer, we are talking about uterine > cancer. > Ellen > > >> > > I am not sure why people think that bioidentical is superior to >> synthetic. >> > > >> > >> > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Hi Ellen, It was almost five years ago. My three doctors were very familiar with this and said it was not uncommon. I was barely postmenopause. One of them was a gyn oncologist. None seemed to be in a rush, though they did tell me I needed to make a decision as 23 percent of complex hyperplasia with atypia would go on to be uterine cancer. I refused the BIOIDENTICAL progesterone they offered to me, in the amounts they offered. They did not offer synthetic P at all. I am sorry to hear of the problems you have had with your diagnosis. Gael Gael:I have some severe side effects from megase, not untold misery. I feel sorry for those who have untold misery. I was paraphrasing what someone else said about the Wiley protocol. It has nothing to do with believing anyway. This is the protocol for uterine cancer to preserve fertility and postpone surgical menopause.I wanted to ask you how long ago was your diagnosis if you don't mind sharing and if you went to an oncologist. In my experience, the gynocologists that I was dealing with, even a few friends who are gynocologists never came across anyone who had complex atypia and when they looked it up just like I did the first course of action is hysterectomy. Only a few gyno oncologists knew about the studies with progesterone and that was 6 years ago. Now it is protocol as you saw in my other postings. You said even if the progesterone was offered to you, you wouldn't of done it anyway. But at least you would of had a choice and your doctor would have informed you of all options which I always think is important. There is a very high risk of complex atypia converting to cancer or having concurrent cancer that they cannot diagnose until post hysterectomy like with Liz. I am glad you never had to deal with that and it was only atypia. That is the best possible outcome.Ellen> > > > > > > > > > > Liz:> > > I am so glad to hear that surgical menopause was not as bad as what I > am> > > enduring now. I did talk to my oncologist about hormone replacement at > least> > > for a while, not sure what will be effective.> > > Liz I am not sure how they diagnosed you with endometrial cancer. > Since I do> > > not have cancer as far as they know, they staging is done at the time > of> > > hysterectomy. I actually did what you said, the keeping the eye on the > uterus> > > for 6 years. I am very conscious of everything and even the oncologist > says,> > > I have no idea how you seem to catch it every time, she said she would > not be> > > able to even in herself. I have had 6 D and C's, eventually the > oncologist> > > said look I am not happy doing this constantly mostly because of the > exposure> > > to the anesthesia, so a biopsy will have to do. I go every six months> > > religiously. It has returned 4 times in six years (once because of the> > > estrodiol in the fertility meds. The oncologist is not comfortable > with> > > letting this go on but it is my choice. She told me, with a straight > face,> > > look, this I can cure, if you have cancer, or it turns into cancer, I > am not> > > so sure I can cure it and then I have to give you chemo that will make > you> > > lose your hair, make you very very sick and maybe even radiation. Here > is the> > > big thing she said, "If you were my sister I would tell you it is > time."> > > > > > Now realize, it is the constant estrogen dominance that contributed to > the> > > complex atypia, along with the fact that I never had children, I never > smoked,> > > never took birth control pills and I have a very high genetic > disposition to> > > obesity, although I was obese a very small portion of my life. To be > honest,> > > I have a very highly stressed life and I think that is most of what is > causing> > > this rapid cell turnover with errors.> > > > > > The great thing is that I am really "healthy" in spite of all this. I > have> > > heard of women who had to quit their jobs and stay in bed because of > this drug> > > but I work three jobs. Don't ask me how. I have actually lost weight > on the> > > drug (well the third time, not this time) and I am glad to say my > hormones are> > > within normal levels. I do think my adrenals are shot, megase can do > that but> > > after the second round, that was after the fertility treatments, I > went to an> > > endocrinologist specifically to check my cortisol levels. It was at > the very> > > low end in fact was on the low end and he said well it is still within > normal> > > limits, what do you want me to do, as I crawled out of his office > barely able> > > to walk. So thanks for the hormone tips K9 but unless it is > sub-clinical> > > which it might be my thyroid is fine.> > > > > > Now ladies please understand I have also been a vegan for 15 years, no > wheat> > > for 10 years and no soy for 6 years. Oh and I am not a junk food > vegan, in> > > fact everything that goes into my mouth is for a reason mostly > antioxidants> > > and anti carcinogenic substances. So that might be part of it. I also > take a> > > variety of supplements.> > > > > > So has anyone successfully eliminated progesterone from their bodies > in a> > > rapid fashion without symptoms?> > > > > > E> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Liz Vernand> > Channel Islands Sportfishing Center> > 4151 S. Ave.> > Oxnard, CA 93035> > _http://channelislandssportfishing.com/_ > (http://channelislandssportfishing.com/) > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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