Re: Estrogen supplementation during menses

[Guest guest]

Hi Viki,I don't think there are many here who are still cycling besides you and I. Have you heard of Dr. Vliet? She has written many books and she appears to be the only one who has published lab test analysis for cycling women. I can't answer any of your questions but wanted to share with you what she has written about estrogen.Estradiol: Test on day 1,2 or 3 of cycle and then again on day 21. Use transdermal estradiol patch (Alora, Estraderm or Vivelle-Dot). Also available in pill form as Estrace. I have suggested that my patients put the patch on the buttock sometime between cycle day 24 and 28, change the patch two or three days later, and wear another one until about day 3 or 4 of the next cycle. This helps

offset the body drop in estradiol, keeps blood levels steady, and can prevent the menstrual migraine. After menopause, women typically have estradiol levels of only 10-30pg/ml. Levels below 90 are generally too low to provide adequate relief of symptoms. Low estradiol can cause low body temperature and if you are low in estrogen then just taking T3 will not bring basal temperature back to normal. Still there are other endocrine factors that determine basal body temperature. High FSH levels (above 20mIU/ml) indicate that estradiol levels are too low, even if you are on hormone therapy.Normal levels:Day 1Estradiol 70-90 pg/ml (lower end of the range is above 90-100pg/ml for healthy menstrual cycle levels.)Levels up to about 200 or so are the normal estradiol levels reached in the first half of cycle.Folllicular phase:Estradiol 200, ovulatory peak is 300-250/300Luteal phase:Estradiol 200-300This is

the cycle week in which PMS typically gets worse as progesterone levels increase. Vliet finds that women with PMS typically have progesterone levels that increase normally, but their estradiol is usually below about 150.Natural progesterone and estrogen are best for menopausal women BUT birth control pills can do a world of good for women who are still menstruating and have endometriosis, fibroids, heavy bleeding, ovarian cysts, PCOS, severe PMS, menstrually triggered migraines, severe anemia, recurrent breast cysts–just to name some key ones.Let me know what you think,, To: rhythmicliving Sent: Sunday, April 1, 2012 1:55 PM Subject: Estrogen supplementation during menses

Hello, dear ladies,

I'm reading the posts silently most of the time- and learning a lot in the process. Even if most of what I read is not applicable to me, it still broadens my understanding, plus, I can pass the knowledge to my friends who may need it.

I have a question for myself, though, this time.

I just added a little estrogen to my regimen and I wonder if what I am experiencing now is normal.

The history:

Cycling regularly, no misses, no hot flashes, etc. If I'm in the early stages of perimenopause as chronologically I am already in my 40ies, I don't know it. My health markers are pretty young- I took a good care of my health all my life. However, from the onset of menarche and all my life, I had symptoms of estrogen dominance.

I have been taking only progesterone cream with great results for about 3 years now. I am taking it in a cyclic manner (2 lines twice daily during the second part of the cycle), but I also add a tad (~10 mg- 0.5 line, once daily) on the `off' days as it really helps me with anxiety, especially during ovulation. That works for me. My body fat is low (I'm an athlete) and I always put the cream on the thinnest skin. No accumulation signs or side effects so far. (Before I even started on progesterone, I took care of my fatigued adrenals – I went pretty smart about it.)

During these 3 `progesterone' years, I made about 5 attempts to add just a little estrogen – since, for myself, I decided, that I will not wait for my levels to drop significantly and will try to keep them as youthful as possible- so that I can keep all my receptors. (Staying young is my main motivation.) None of those earlier attempts worked. My anxiety and rage returned each time I tried to add estrogen. Adding more progesterone on top of that didn't make any difference. So, I gave up for a while, deciding that I likely still had too much of my own to be supplementing. (The blood tests would show 300-400 estr. at ovulation.)

The present:

Lately, however (~ 3mths ago), I started to experience fatigue and `PMS', plus accentuated hollowed appearance during the menstruation itself. The latest blood test, even though I might not been at the `top' point when I took it), showed the lowest estrogen ever for me- 270. It's very likely that my estrogen is finally starting to drop—and that affected my periods.

I read that blunting the significant drop in estrogen just before menses sometimes can help reduce menstrual symptoms. So I decided to attempt adding estrogen again. I added 1 line (1 mg) once a day to raise my baseline and lessen the `drop'. It was a success this time! I felt great. I continued doing 1 line a day- and still doing it now.

Now, to the problem. My first cycle with estrogen was perfect. However, my second ended at just 19 days (normally, it's 29 days)

Also, I actually saw small pieces of my lining coming out - in fact, this last menses started not with blood per se, but with pieces of lining just falling out of me. Otherwise, I felt fairly well.

So, I would appreciate if someone could educate me: Can estrogen make your lining unstable? Why would adding estrogen shorten one's cycle? Before, during my unsuccessful attempts, when I tried it even for a few days, my cycle would become a little longer, not shorter- and, according to my previous understanding, estrogen is supposed to make the lining more stable, grow it more, etc.

Thank you in advance for any knowledge/experiences you can share with me,

Viki

[Guest guest]

Thank you, !

I see now that I need to check my Day 1 est. levels.

My next question is about the ovulatory estrogen peak. Right now it is at 270-

and used to be 350 3 years ago, and likely much higher before – I was literally

going crazy during ovulation when I was in my 20ies. So I wonder if for me,

specifically, my max estrogen supposed to be higher than 270 to produce a full

ovulatory effect on all the other hormones.

My feeling is that it's not just one cycle thing, but an overall drop in my

estrogen. I don't know if it's connected to the fact that I take progesterone

for 3 years now- even on the `off' days (?) My PMS, in the past, was due to the

fact that my progesterone was too low- I know that because any addition of

estrogen lead to the intensification of the symptoms- while adding progesterone

(I tried both Prometrium and the cream) eliminated the problems, including the

PMS. Still, there is a shift of some sort, after 3 years, and I feel that I need

a little estrogen now.

For that, I started using estradiol cream- by Wiley (not in her doses, of

course, but I like the convenience of their packing.) Another thing I like about

using the cream is that I feel in control- as soon as I start feeling `crazy'

again, I reduce the dose for that day.

My T hormones levels are normal. I do take 10 mg of hydrocortisone still to help

my adrenals, along with some supplements- and never have any fatigue on this

dose. I started with 20 mg in the morning 4 years ago as my adrenals were nearly

completely exhausted (after a series of very stressful events in my life,

including tragedy in the family), but they seemed to have recuperated to some

degree after 3 years or so, and I have been cutting the dose slowly. I have

never used birth control pills- or any synthetic hormones, and will try to stay

away from them (only a non-hormonal IUD for me.) In addition to my instinctual

aversion to any non-bioidentical hormones, the research shows that using BC

pills brings menopause earlier.

Viki

PS Please explain what do `normal levels' mean? Does it factor the age or is it

a general `perfect' number? I'd like to keep all the hormones both balanced- and

in the `young' ranges- meaning as in our 20ies, since in the 30ies the hormones

and health are already in decline. I understand that the numbers are very

individual, and I have no certain idea what my levels were in my 20ies. Another

marker that I've heard of is `as in the most fertile state', for which, I read,

the lowest estradiol maximum is 270…

>

> Hi Viki,

>

> I don't think there are many here who are still cycling besides you and I.

Have you heard of Dr. Vliet? She has written many books and she appears to be

the only one who has published lab test analysis for cycling women. I can't

answer any of your questions but wanted to share with you what she has written

about estrogen.

>

> Estradiol: Test on day 1,2 or 3 of cycle and then again on day 21. Use

transdermal estradiol patch (Alora, Estraderm or Vivelle-Dot). Also available in

pill form as Estrace. I have suggested that my patients put the patch on the

buttock sometime between cycle day 24 and 28, change the patch two or three days

later, and wear another one until about day 3 or 4 of the next cycle. This helps

offset the body drop in estradiol, keeps blood levels steady, and can prevent

the menstrual migraine.

>

> After menopause, women typically have estradiol levels of only 10-30pg/ml.

Levels below 90 are generally too low to provide adequate relief of symptoms.

Low estradiol can cause low body temperature and if you are low in estrogen then

just taking T3 will not bring basal temperature back to normal. Still there are

other endocrine factors that determine basal body temperature. High FSH levels

(above 20mIU/ml) indicate that estradiol levels are too low, even if you are on

hormone therapy.

>

> Normal levels:

> Day 1

> Estradiol 70-90 pg/ml (lower end of the range is above 90-100pg/ml for healthy

menstrual cycle levels.)

> Levels up to about 200 or so are the normal estradiol levels reached in the

first half of cycle.

>

> Folllicular phase:

> Estradiol 200, ovulatory peak is 300-250/300

>

> Luteal phase:

> Estradiol 200-300

> This is the cycle week in which PMS typically gets worse as progesterone

levels increase. Vliet finds that women with PMS typically have progesterone

levels that increase normally, but their estradiol is usually below about 150.

> Natural progesterone and estrogen are best for menopausal women BUT birth

control pills can do a world of good for women who are still menstruating and

have endometriosis, fibroids, heavy bleeding, ovarian cysts, PCOS, severe PMS,

menstrually triggered migraines, severe anemia, recurrent breast cysts†" just to

name some key ones.

>

> Let me know what you think,,

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

>

> To: rhythmicliving

> Sent: Sunday, April 1, 2012 1:55 PM

> Subject: Estrogen supplementation during menses

>

>

>  

> Hello, dear ladies,

>

> I'm reading the posts silently most of the time- and learning a lot in the

process. Even if most of what I read is not applicable to me, it still broadens

my understanding, plus, I can pass the knowledge to my friends who may need it.

> I have a question for myself, though, this time.

> I just added a little estrogen to my regimen and I wonder if what I am

experiencing now is normal.

>

> The history:

>

> Cycling regularly, no misses, no hot flashes, etc. If I'm in the early stages

of perimenopause as chronologically I am already in my 40ies, I don't know it.

My health markers are pretty young- I took a good care of my health all my life.

However, from the onset of menarche and all my life, I had symptoms of estrogen

dominance.

>

> I have been taking only progesterone cream with great results for about 3

years now. I am taking it in a cyclic manner (2 lines twice daily during the

second part of the cycle), but I also add a tad (~10 mg- 0.5 line, once daily)

on the `off' days as it really helps me with anxiety, especially during

ovulation. That works for me. My body fat is low (I'm an athlete) and I always

put the cream on the thinnest skin. No accumulation signs or side effects so

far. (Before I even started on progesterone, I took care of my fatigued adrenals

†" I went pretty smart about it.)

> During these 3 `progesterone' years, I made about 5 attempts to add just a

little estrogen †" since, for myself, I decided, that I will not wait for my

levels to drop significantly and will try to keep them as youthful as possible-

so that I can keep all my receptors. (Staying young is my main motivation.) None

of those earlier attempts worked. My anxiety and rage returned each time I tried

to add estrogen. Adding more progesterone on top of that didn't make any

difference. So, I gave up for a while, deciding that I likely still had too much

of my own to be supplementing. (The blood tests would show 300-400 estr. at

ovulation.)

>

> The present:

> Lately, however (~ 3mths ago), I started to experience fatigue and `PMS', plus

accentuated hollowed appearance during the menstruation itself. The latest blood

test, even though I might not been at the `top' point when I took it), showed

the lowest estrogen ever for me- 270. It's very likely that my estrogen is

finally starting to drop†" and that affected my periods.

> I read that blunting the significant drop in estrogen just before menses

sometimes can help reduce menstrual symptoms. So I decided to attempt adding

estrogen again. I added 1 line (1 mg) once a day to raise my baseline and lessen

the `drop'. It was a success this time! I felt great. I continued doing 1 line a

day- and still doing it now.

>

> Now, to the problem. My first cycle with estrogen was perfect. However, my

second ended at just 19 days (normally, it's 29 days)

> Also, I actually saw small pieces of my lining coming out - in fact, this last

menses started not with blood per se, but with pieces of lining just falling out

of me. Otherwise, I felt fairly well.

>

> So, I would appreciate if someone could educate me: Can estrogen make your

lining unstable? Why would adding estrogen shorten one's cycle? Before, during

my unsuccessful attempts, when I tried it even for a few days, my cycle would

become a little longer, not shorter- and, according to my previous

understanding, estrogen is supposed to make the lining more stable, grow it

more, etc.

>

> Thank you in advance for any knowledge/experiences you can share with me,

> Viki

>

[Guest guest]

Another PS: Still the question remains- why did I start my period so much

earlier with the addition of estrogen? Is that some sort of re-balancing and is

temporary or am I doing something wrong? Right now, the cycle shortening is my

main concern. I feel well.

> >

> > Hi Viki,

> >

> > I don't think there are many here who are still cycling besides you and I.

Have you heard of Dr. Vliet? She has written many books and she appears to be

the only one who has published lab test analysis for cycling women. I can't

answer any of your questions but wanted to share with you what she has written

about estrogen.

> >

> > Estradiol: Test on day 1,2 or 3 of cycle and then again on day 21. Use

transdermal estradiol patch (Alora, Estraderm or Vivelle-Dot). Also available in

pill form as Estrace. I have suggested that my patients put the patch on the

buttock sometime between cycle day 24 and 28, change the patch two or three days

later, and wear another one until about day 3 or 4 of the next cycle. This helps

offset the body drop in estradiol, keeps blood levels steady, and can prevent

the menstrual migraine.

> >

> > After menopause, women typically have estradiol levels of only 10-30pg/ml.

Levels below 90 are generally too low to provide adequate relief of symptoms.

Low estradiol can cause low body temperature and if you are low in estrogen then

just taking T3 will not bring basal temperature back to normal. Still there are

other endocrine factors that determine basal body temperature. High FSH levels

(above 20mIU/ml) indicate that estradiol levels are too low, even if you are on

hormone therapy.

> >

> > Normal levels:

> > Day 1

> > Estradiol 70-90 pg/ml (lower end of the range is above 90-100pg/ml for

healthy menstrual cycle levels.)

> > Levels up to about 200 or so are the normal estradiol levels reached in the

first half of cycle.

> >

> > Folllicular phase:

> > Estradiol 200, ovulatory peak is 300-250/300

> >

> > Luteal phase:

> > Estradiol 200-300

> > This is the cycle week in which PMS typically gets worse as progesterone

levels increase. Vliet finds that women with PMS typically have progesterone

levels that increase normally, but their estradiol is usually below about 150.

> > Natural progesterone and estrogen are best for menopausal women BUT birth

control pills can do a world of good for women who are still menstruating and

have endometriosis, fibroids, heavy bleeding, ovarian cysts, PCOS, severe PMS,

menstrually triggered migraines, severe anemia, recurrent breast cysts†" just to

name some key ones.

> >

> > Let me know what you think,,

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ________________________________

> > From: health_junkie <health_junkie@>

> > To: rhythmicliving

> > Sent: Sunday, April 1, 2012 1:55 PM

> > Subject: Estrogen supplementation during menses

> >

> >

> >  

> > Hello, dear ladies,

> >

> > I'm reading the posts silently most of the time- and learning a lot in the

process. Even if most of what I read is not applicable to me, it still broadens

my understanding, plus, I can pass the knowledge to my friends who may need it.

> > I have a question for myself, though, this time.

> > I just added a little estrogen to my regimen and I wonder if what I am

experiencing now is normal.

> >

> > The history:

> >

> > Cycling regularly, no misses, no hot flashes, etc. If I'm in the early

stages of perimenopause as chronologically I am already in my 40ies, I don't

know it. My health markers are pretty young- I took a good care of my health all

my life. However, from the onset of menarche and all my life, I had symptoms of

estrogen dominance.

> >

> > I have been taking only progesterone cream with great results for about 3

years now. I am taking it in a cyclic manner (2 lines twice daily during the

second part of the cycle), but I also add a tad (~10 mg- 0.5 line, once daily)

on the `off' days as it really helps me with anxiety, especially during

ovulation. That works for me. My body fat is low (I'm an athlete) and I always

put the cream on the thinnest skin. No accumulation signs or side effects so

far. (Before I even started on progesterone, I took care of my fatigued adrenals

†" I went pretty smart about it.)

> > During these 3 `progesterone' years, I made about 5 attempts to add just a

little estrogen †" since, for myself, I decided, that I will not wait for my

levels to drop significantly and will try to keep them as youthful as possible-

so that I can keep all my receptors. (Staying young is my main motivation.) None

of those earlier attempts worked. My anxiety and rage returned each time I tried

to add estrogen. Adding more progesterone on top of that didn't make any

difference. So, I gave up for a while, deciding that I likely still had too much

of my own to be supplementing. (The blood tests would show 300-400 estr. at

ovulation.)

> >

> > The present:

> > Lately, however (~ 3mths ago), I started to experience fatigue and `PMS',

plus accentuated hollowed appearance during the menstruation itself. The latest

blood test, even though I might not been at the `top' point when I took it),

showed the lowest estrogen ever for me- 270. It's very likely that my estrogen

is finally starting to drop†" and that affected my periods.

> > I read that blunting the significant drop in estrogen just before menses

sometimes can help reduce menstrual symptoms. So I decided to attempt adding

estrogen again. I added 1 line (1 mg) once a day to raise my baseline and lessen

the `drop'. It was a success this time! I felt great. I continued doing 1 line a

day- and still doing it now.

> >

> > Now, to the problem. My first cycle with estrogen was perfect. However, my

second ended at just 19 days (normally, it's 29 days)

> > Also, I actually saw small pieces of my lining coming out - in fact, this

last menses started not with blood per se, but with pieces of lining just

falling out of me. Otherwise, I felt fairly well.

> >

> > So, I would appreciate if someone could educate me: Can estrogen make your

lining unstable? Why would adding estrogen shorten one's cycle? Before, during

my unsuccessful attempts, when I tried it even for a few days, my cycle would

become a little longer, not shorter- and, according to my previous

understanding, estrogen is supposed to make the lining more stable, grow it

more, etc.

> >

> > Thank you in advance for any knowledge/experiences you can share with me,

> > Viki

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you, . It's interesting that cortisol can bring est. levels down-

would it happen even if the supplemented levels of cortisol are still low? I'll

try to find something about it, to read. What herbs are you taking? I wonder if

they can make the E and P supplementation more effective and 'smooth.'.

I'm doing an experiment right now- it's around ovulation time and I don't put on

any estrogen (but I do put a tad of progesterone at night, as always.) I feel

pretty great (was getting jittery feeling again with that new 1 line a day

static dose as in my estrogen dominant days.) I'll start adding E again closer

to my periods and for a few days when I bleed. The thing I'm trying to test is

that, maybe, the problem is not so much with the overall drop in estrogen as

with the higher fluctuation during the cycle- drop from the max (ovulation) to

the min (menstruation.) I also want to see how that strategy will affect the

length of the cycle. I will report the results in a few weeks.

If I could afford it, I would start on a low, physiological dose HGH injections.

I read oodles of literature on it- both pro and cons- and am pretty convinced

that our aging occurs largely in response to the natural decline in HGH

production. The supplementation might not only help to balance the rest of the

hormones - and to bring them to higher, younger levels- in some studies, it even

reverses the menopause in ~ 50 % of women, can you imagine!

I have an aunt that, due to a sickness, underwent menopause very early- around

35. Still, she looked terrific and had a lot of energy- until she hit about 55.

And then, all of the so called 'menopausal' changes started happening to her.

Coincidentally, that's the age when a major drop in HGH production occurs in

most people.

Viki

> >

> > Hi Viki,

> >

> > I don't think there are many here who are still cycling besides you and I.

Have you heard of Dr. Vliet? She has written many books and she appears to be

the only one who has published lab test analysis for cycling women. I can't

answer any of your questions but wanted to share with you what she has written

about estrogen.

> >

> > Estradiol: Test on day 1,2 or 3 of cycle and then again on day 21. Use

transdermal estradiol patch (Alora, Estraderm or Vivelle-Dot). Also available in

pill form as Estrace. I have suggested that my patients put the patch on the

buttock sometime between cycle day 24 and 28, change the patch two or three days

later, and wear another one until about day 3 or 4 of the next cycle. This helps

offset the body drop in estradiol, keeps blood levels steady, and can prevent

the menstrual migraine.

> >

> > After menopause, women typically have estradiol levels of only 10-30pg/ml.

Levels below 90 are generally too low to provide adequate relief of symptoms.

Low estradiol can cause low body temperature and if you are low in estrogen then

just taking T3 will not bring basal temperature back to normal. Still there are

other endocrine factors that determine basal body temperature. High FSH levels

(above 20mIU/ml) indicate that estradiol levels are too low, even if you are on

hormone therapy.

> >

> > Normal levels:

> > Day 1

> > Estradiol 70-90 pg/ml (lower end of the range is above 90-100pg/ml for

healthy menstrual cycle levels.)

> > Levels up to about 200 or so are the normal estradiol levels reached in the

first half of cycle.

> >

> > Folllicular phase:

> > Estradiol 200, ovulatory peak is 300-250/300

> >

> > Luteal phase:

> > Estradiol 200-300

> > This is the cycle week in which PMS typically gets worse as progesterone

levels increase. Vliet finds that women with PMS typically have progesterone

levels that increase normally, but their estradiol is usually below about 150.

> > Natural progesterone and estrogen are best for menopausal women BUT birth

control pills can do a world of good for women who are still menstruating and

have endometriosis, fibroids, heavy bleeding, ovarian cysts, PCOS, severe PMS,

menstrually triggered migraines, severe anemia, recurrent breast cysts†" just

to name some key ones.

> >

> > Let me know what you think,,

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ________________________________

> > From: health_junkie <health_junkie@>

> > To: rhythmicliving

> > Sent: Sunday, April 1, 2012 1:55 PM

> > Subject: Estrogen supplementation during menses

> >

> >

> >  

> > Hello, dear ladies,

> >

> > I'm reading the posts silently most of the time- and learning a lot in the

process. Even if most of what I read is not applicable to me, it still broadens

my understanding, plus, I can pass the knowledge to my friends who may need it.

> > I have a question for myself, though, this time.

> > I just added a little estrogen to my regimen and I wonder if what I am

experiencing now is normal.

> >

> > The history:

> >

> > Cycling regularly, no misses, no hot flashes, etc. If I'm in the early

stages of perimenopause as chronologically I am already in my 40ies, I don't

know it. My health markers are pretty young- I took a good care of my health all

my life. However, from the onset of menarche and all my life, I had symptoms of

estrogen dominance.

> >

> > I have been taking only progesterone cream with great results for about 3

years now. I am taking it in a cyclic manner (2 lines twice daily during the

second part of the cycle), but I also add a tad (~10 mg- 0.5 line, once daily)

on the `off' days as it really helps me with anxiety, especially during

ovulation. That works for me. My body fat is low (I'm an athlete) and I always

put the cream on the thinnest skin. No accumulation signs or side effects so

far. (Before I even started on progesterone, I took care of my fatigued adrenals

†" I went pretty smart about it.)

> > During these 3 `progesterone' years, I made about 5 attempts to add just a

little estrogen †" since, for myself, I decided, that I will not wait for my

levels to drop significantly and will try to keep them as youthful as possible-

so that I can keep all my receptors. (Staying young is my main motivation.) None

of those earlier attempts worked. My anxiety and rage returned each time I tried

to add estrogen. Adding more progesterone on top of that didn't make any

difference. So, I gave up for a while, deciding that I likely still had too much

of my own to be supplementing. (The blood tests would show 300-400 estr. at

ovulation.)

> >

> > The present:

> > Lately, however (~ 3mths ago), I started to experience fatigue and `PMS',

plus accentuated hollowed appearance during the menstruation itself. The latest

blood test, even though I might not been at the `top' point when I took it),

showed the lowest estrogen ever for me- 270. It's very likely that my estrogen

is finally starting to drop†" and that affected my periods.

> > I read that blunting the significant drop in estrogen just before menses

sometimes can help reduce menstrual symptoms. So I decided to attempt adding

estrogen again. I added 1 line (1 mg) once a day to raise my baseline and lessen

the `drop'. It was a success this time! I felt great. I continued doing 1 line a

day- and still doing it now.

> >

> > Now, to the problem. My first cycle with estrogen was perfect. However, my

second ended at just 19 days (normally, it's 29 days)

> > Also, I actually saw small pieces of my lining coming out - in fact, this

last menses started not with blood per se, but with pieces of lining just

falling out of me. Otherwise, I felt fairly well.

> >

> > So, I would appreciate if someone could educate me: Can estrogen make your

lining unstable? Why would adding estrogen shorten one's cycle? Before, during

my unsuccessful attempts, when I tried it even for a few days, my cycle would

become a little longer, not shorter- and, according to my previous

understanding, estrogen is supposed to make the lining more stable, grow it

more, etc.

> >

> > Thank you in advance for any knowledge/experiences you can share with me,

> > Viki

> >

>