Re: Amalgam removal, etc.

March 26, 2002

on Tue, 26 Mar 2002 at 07:52:47, steverichfield

wrote :

>I figured that

>there would be a stampede to the dentists to rip them out, get

>chelation treatments, etc.

>Has anyone done this? What did you do? Did it help?

Steve,

Hi again.

I had my amalgams out, not because I really thought it would stop my AF,

but because I couldn't afford for it to be a residual risk for the AF.

I also didn't like the idea of having them in my mouth anyway. Totally

basic metallurgy and corrosion tells anyone that mercury can get out,

and not to believe a thing the " locked in " brigade says.

Afterwards I chelated for 3 months with cilantro, Vit C, Se, and again a

year later for 2 months, and am still on 300 mg/day Vit C, + vit E +

various other things from time to time, plus Selenium 200 mg/d.

Anyhow, though I saw a slight dip in my AF activity in the few months

straight afterwards, I haven't seen any long-term improvement in my AF.

I may have done if I had done it 2 or 3 years earlier - (pure

supposition).

However, the key thing with any AF is to get to it early, since if you

don't, the fibbing will remodel your heart muscle and make it worse -

whether it is ultimately due to mercury, low body temp, thyroid problem,

vagal, with underlying heart disease, whatever. I've noticed that the

people who have success with complementary approaches to AF are I think

the ones who get to it early.

I got to mine with my gastric problems fairly early, but it couldn't

completely stop it, and I'm now a persistent fibber without dofetilide,

and actively searching around for ablation options.

Best of health to all,

Vicky

London, UK, 1954 model

http://www.vagalafibportal.fsnet.co.uk/

" Nothing in life is to be feared.

It is only to be understood " - Marie Curie

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\

-------------

March 26, 2002

> I got to mine with my gastric problems fairly early, but it

couldn't

> completely stop it, and I'm now a persistent fibber without

dofetilide,

> and actively searching around for ablation options.

Vicky, is the dofetilide keeping you in nsr some of the time? With

the not so great success rate of ablations for permanent afib, have

you considered the maze?

March 26, 2002

In a message dated 3/26/2002 10:20:01 PM Pacific Standard Time,

AFIBsupport@... writes:

> . The really " hard cases " have had their tonsils out as

> children under general anesthetic.

Interesting...... I am in permanent afib (I think) although I do

not think I have a low body temperature. I do feel a little colder

now because heart is not pumping as well.

I did have my tonsils out under general anesthesia when I was

5 or 6 though.........

Bill Utterback

South San Francisco, CA

March 26, 2002

Thanks everyone for your experiences. It seems that the time constant

for mercury coming out of your brain is 20-30 years, so there is no

good reason to expect anything soon. Further, most chelation methods

actually mobilize mercury from your body and transport it to your

brain, making things worse. There has been some people looking into

two-step methods, first chelating the mercury from your body with

safer methods, then from your brain once your body is flushed out.

It seems that the leading edge of this research is in the area of

childhood autism.

Vicky, as I recall, you had a low daytime body temperature. I have

since reset several other people's persistent low daytime body

temperatures, and have learned a LOT. It appears that low daytime body

temperature is an eventually terminal condition that only gets harder

to reset as the years pass, so this is not just an afib issue. Many

people also have insulin resistant diabetes, high triglycerides, etc.

Indeed, the higher frequency of low body temperature among afibbers

could explain much of their increased risk of stroke! It seems that

whatever is " hitting the rail " to cause your afib, that low daytime

body temperature certainly complicates understanding what is causing

your problems. The really " hard cases " have had their tonsils out as

children under general anesthetic. Is this your situation?

Steve Richfield

================

> on Tue, 26 Mar 2002 at 07:52:47, steverichfield

> <AFIBsupport@s...> wrote :

>

> >I figured that

> >there would be a stampede to the dentists to rip them out, get

> >chelation treatments, etc.

> >Has anyone done this? What did you do? Did it help?

>

> Steve,

>

> Hi again.

>

> I had my amalgams out, not because I really thought it would stop my

AF,

> but because I couldn't afford for it to be a residual risk for the

AF.

> I also didn't like the idea of having them in my mouth anyway.

Totally

> basic metallurgy and corrosion tells anyone that mercury can get

out,

> and not to believe a thing the " locked in " brigade says.

>

> Afterwards I chelated for 3 months with cilantro, Vit C, Se, and

again a

> year later for 2 months, and am still on 300 mg/day Vit C, + vit E +

> various other things from time to time, plus Selenium 200 mg/d.

>

> Anyhow, though I saw a slight dip in my AF activity in the few

months

> straight afterwards, I haven't seen any long-term improvement in my

AF.

> I may have done if I had done it 2 or 3 years earlier - (pure

> supposition).

>

> However, the key thing with any AF is to get to it early, since if

you

> don't, the fibbing will remodel your heart muscle and make it worse

-

> whether it is ultimately due to mercury, low body temp, thyroid

problem,

> vagal, with underlying heart disease, whatever. I've noticed that

the

> people who have success with complementary approaches to AF are I

think

> the ones who get to it early.

>

> I got to mine with my gastric problems fairly early, but it couldn't

> completely stop it, and I'm now a persistent fibber without

dofetilide,

> and actively searching around for ablation options.

>

> Best of health to all,

> Vicky

>

> London, UK, 1954 model

> http://www.vagalafibportal.fsnet.co.uk/

>

> " Nothing in life is to be feared.

> It is only to be understood " - Marie Curie

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------

March 26, 2002

> In a message dated 3/26/2002 10:20:01 PM Pacific Standard Time,

> AFIBsupport@s... writes:

>

> > . The really " hard cases " have had their tonsils out as

> > children under general anesthetic.

>

> Interesting...... I am in permanent afib (I think) although I do

> not think I have a low body temperature. I do feel a little colder

> now because heart is not pumping as well.

>

> I did have my tonsils out under general anesthesia when I was

> 5 or 6 though.........

>

> Bill Utterback

> South San Francisco, CA

>

March 27, 2002

on Tue, 26 Mar 2002 at 15:56:15, trudyjhnew wrote :

>> I got to mine with my gastric problems fairly early, but it

>>couldn't completely stop it, and I'm now a persistent fibber without

>>dofetilide, and actively searching around for ablation options.

>

>Vicky, is the dofetilide keeping you in nsr some of the time? With

>the not so great success rate of ablations for permanent afib, have

>you considered the maze?

Until about 5 days ago, the average was about 50% of the time in AF,

with the other 50% in NSR or NSR + significant ectopics, but read

this....

The strangest thing has happened (lots of wood knocking going on here -

can you hear it?) in the past few days, resulting in less AF !!!....

.....Although my digestive status is improved over what it was (by

avoiding wheat), it still isn't right. Now, I *know* we should all

drink more water, but I just read a book extract that says when and how

it works: specifically that you should drink a half-pint half an hour

before a meal, and then again about 2 hours after, plus one before going

to bed, plus the remaining recommended 8th glass around your heaviest

meal (any extra above 8 is fine). The way it is supposed to work is

that the one before the meal gets rapidly absorbed but there is no time

to get rid of it before the food hits your stomach and it is called on

for work. The absorbed water is called back to the stomach/intestinal

lining to be back-flushed into the stomach/intestines and thereby

helping in a number of functions - bringing the bicarbonate to the

stomach wall that neutralises the acid released, helping with the

general aqueous/acid environment that is required, and being present in

the body so the last part of the gut doesn't have to preserve its water

balance too much.

Net result - better digestion, but also, in my case - LESS AF :-))

I am making really strong efforts to make sure I keep drinking enough,

and basing on this timing pattern, and I've had about 5 days with much

less problem - I even lay on my left in bed this morning (bliss!)

without it kicking off an attack.

Also, this pattern stops me just peeing all the water out again - I used

to drink the 8 glasses between meals, and was always in the loo. So if

I'm drinking more and peeing less, it *must* be making a difference to

my hydration levels, I think.

I'm still waiting to hear on all the options for ablation, btw - have a

consultants appt next week to discuss it all.

Best of health to all,

Vicky

London, UK, 1954 model

http://www.vagalafibportal.fsnet.co.uk/

" It is the theory that decides what can be observed "

- Albert Einstein

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\

-------------

March 27, 2002

on Wed, 27 Mar 2002 at 06:18:19, steverichfield

wrote :

>Vicky, as I recall, you had a low daytime body temperature.

Without looking back at my logs, ISTR that I have a low morning basal

metabolic, but generally pretty normal during the day, and it goes a bit

lower again near bed time, hence I turned down the importance I gave to

this issue, though not forgotten. What I definitely confirmed, though,

is that higher body temp = higher heart rate (about 7 bpm per deg F)

(and even conventional Docs. agree with this!) and higher heart rate =

less AF risk for vagal fibbers. Interestingly, if you check modes of

death in hypothermia, it is often arrhythmia.

>The really " hard cases " have had their tonsils out as

>children under general anesthetic. Is this your situation?

But strangely, yes, I had mine out when I was 6.

What is the link here, Steve - how does it work? Is it just tonsils or

is it the general?

Also see my other post about water intake and dehydration correction - I

do feel that I have made a difference to my AF by taking in more water -

but it must be *effectively* so - not just peed out again. Having water

around is an essential prerequisite for all bodily systems to function -

and this makes sense to me in control terms that too concentrated a

solution means the regulatory systems can't work.

Best of health to all,

Vicky

London, UK, 1954 model

http://www.vagalafibportal.fsnet.co.uk/

" Science may be described as the art of systematic

over-simplification " - Karl Popper

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\

-------------

March 28, 2002

Fran:

You can purchase Biotest T2 from a number of health food outlets. It

is sold as a non-prescription diet aid! Their 50 mcg capsules are SO

thermogenic that you can typically divide them into 1/8ths, and take

one every hour or two until your temperature pops up to 98.6F. After

one day of this, espresso and hot showers should work to pop you up to

98.6F without needing more medicine. Some people, but not many, may

require more than one day of T2 to be able to get their temperatures

up with espresso and hot showers.

You should dress a little UNcomfortably warm both during this

treatment and for weeks/months following until you can get by without

" crashing " for an afternoon nap when you don't dress so warmly.

There is MUCH more clinical experience using prescription T3, though

it probably isn't as good. T3 is most easily obtained from an

off-shore pharmacy (you lie about your non-existent prescription). It

is best to get 5 mcg Cytomel pills. To get a prescription from your

doctor:

1. Have him perform a TSH test, which will probably show you to be

borderline hypothyroid.

2. Ask for a prescription for a month's supply of 25 mcg Levoxyl and 5

mcg Cytomel pills for a clinical trial.

3. Ask your pharmacy for only few of the Levoxyl pills, but get the

full month's supply of the T3.

4. Use a few T3 pills to force your temperature up for a day (it will

probably take around 3 if you dress warmly), and use 1/2 of one of the

Levoxyl pills when you " crash " (feel cold and sleepy) several hours

later, which will fix this in about 45 minutes. Use the remainder of

your pills to fix your friends up - you should have enough pills to

fix about 6 people, or the 1/4 of your 24 freinds who also have low

daytime body temperature. Of course this also works with the Biotest

T2, only you get a LOT more in a bottle.

It's amazing how turning a friend's health around improves a

friendship.

I hope this helps you.

Steve

===============================

> > >

> > > Hi

> > >

> > > I have a persistant low body temperature. I have never had my

> > tonsils

> > > out. How do you reset someones body temperature? You said you

had

> > > reset many. I have scalding hot baths (my husband wonders how on

> > > earth I can sit in them). I sit in front of a roaring fire

> > constantly

> > > and am ok so long as I have fresh air to breathe. Its only when

> it

> > > gets stuffy I suffer. But it does not put my temp up. My third

> child

> > > was 8lbs and was put in an incubator as he was born with low

body

> > > temperature. Did this come from me?

> > >

> > > I had measles as a child and nearly died. I actually had an out

> of

> > > body experience with it. I know that measles can damage the

> > autonomic

> > > nervous system. But it took years for this to happen. It all

> started

> > > after the birth of my first child at age 22 (at the time I

blamed

> > the

> > > epidural). I'm now 42. I was what you would call extremely

> healthy

> > > growing up (apart from measles). I never caught colds etc. My

> first

> > > general anesthetic was at age 31. I would still call myself

> healthy

> > > considering. The one thing that I have noticed is that I never

> > suffer

> > > from cold extremities, even on the sotalol, when I was told this

> > > would be a side effect. I just suffer from what seems to be an

> > > internal chill. It never goes, no matter how warm the room is.

> But I

> > > feel great outside on a cold day being active. This is the only

> time

> > > I feel warm throughout.

> > >

> > > FRan

March 29, 2002

> > > >

> > > > Hi

> > > >

> > > > I have a persistant low body temperature. I have never had my

> > > tonsils

> > > > out. How do you reset someones body temperature? You said you

> had

> > > > reset many. I have scalding hot baths (my husband wonders how

on

> > > > earth I can sit in them). I sit in front of a roaring fire

> > > constantly

> > > > and am ok so long as I have fresh air to breathe. Its only

when

> > it

> > > > gets stuffy I suffer. But it does not put my temp up. My

third

> > child

> > > > was 8lbs and was put in an incubator as he was born with low

> body

> > > > temperature. Did this come from me?

> > > >

> > > > I had measles as a child and nearly died. I actually had an

out

> > of

> > > > body experience with it. I know that measles can damage the

> > > autonomic

> > > > nervous system. But it took years for this to happen. It all

> > started

> > > > after the birth of my first child at age 22 (at the time I

> blamed

> > > the

> > > > epidural). I'm now 42. I was what you would call extremely

> > healthy

> > > > growing up (apart from measles). I never caught colds etc. My

> > first

> > > > general anesthetic was at age 31. I would still call myself

> > healthy

> > > > considering. The one thing that I have noticed is that I

never

> > > suffer

> > > > from cold extremities, even on the sotalol, when I was told

this

> > > > would be a side effect. I just suffer from what seems to be

an

> > > > internal chill. It never goes, no matter how warm the room

is.

> > But I

> > > > feel great outside on a cold day being active. This is the

only

> > time

> > > > I feel warm throughout.

> > > >

> > > > FRan

March 29, 2002

Guys re thyroid and AF.

I just want to get my 2c in .

I am in the UK and you can get T4 that is Thyroxin several different brands

's seem to be the most common followed by Eltroxin. There is lots of things

on the net regarding this med. Also you can get T3 but only one brand is

available here.Thryods meds are strickly controlled and only available on

prescriptions.

I have had Af and now drug free due to PVA. I also lost my Thyroid due to

Amiodarone.

Over the last year I have been experiencing what can only be described and

Hypothyrotoxic. The symptoms for me are feeling depressed, Muscle cramps,

feeling cold, weight gain .Chronic constipation and generally feeling slow.

All my blood tests were fine and I found out that this was due to the synthetic

thyroid replacement. All the normal Drs informed me this could not happen and it

was in my mind. One type of thyroxin made my asthma bad. one gave me cramps, one

made me very short of breath.

On Thursday I was put on Armour thyroid, this is the natural replacement made

from Pigs Thyroids. It is only made in the USA so I am a little concerned about

the supply.

Thats not why I am posting. Although the Thyriod can cause AF it the Hyperactive

Thyroids that can cause this. I have been both under active and today over

active as I have to get my dose right. Today my heart has been thumping and I

feel very stressed , all signs of an over active thyriod, or in my case too much

thyroxin.

AF is caused by an Electrical problems in the heart or the PV. I have seen in my

Ablation the Ep be able to turn up and off AF this was amazing to me.. D

will disagree I am sure.

I do feel that anything about Temperature an AF may be a little misguided but

there again if this make you happy and feel good then why not try it.

I am sure this will generate a lot of mails, so I am off on Holiday until April

10th

>>Best regards

john C

--Are T3 and T4 not thyroid meds? If so then I would never be able to

come by them. Also I think it is T4 that they won't prescribe here. I

have had my thyroid tested for both overactive and underactive over

the years to no avail. I live in the UK, so my GP would have to ok

it. And he wouldn't. Still can't see how I an force my temperature

up. I have a hot bath everymorning and fresh coffee. I put the coal

fire on everymorning and ............?

I'll do a search on 's syndrome. My baby is 9 years old now,

going on 10. He does display stomach problems, dizziness and feeling

faint. MMMMMMmmmmmm

Fran

> Fran:

>

> There are lots of ways you might have come by your low temp. The

trick

> is to FORCE it up to 98.6F for a day to let your brain see what it

is

> like. The drugs of choice are T3 and T2. You should join Yahoo's

> WS-Forum, which is concerned with these methods. After that day,

warm

> clothing, hot morning showers, and some espresso when you first get

up

> help you jump up to 98.6F after you stop taking the drugs.

>

> You might look around for a doctor who specializes in " 's

> Syndrome therapy " . Alternatively, order everything they have from

> <www.wilsonssyndrome.org> and become an expert yourself.

>

> However, you probably don't have genuine 's Syndrome, but

rather

> have Chronic Central Hypothermia, a misprogramming of your

metabolic

> control system. The treatments for these two conditions are very

> similar, except that CCH treatment is best done in just one day,

> whereas WS threatment is usually stretched out for a week or two.

>

> Your baby may also require some help in this regard ASAP to avoid a

> LOT of problems later in life.

>

> Steve

> ===========

> ---

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March 29, 2002

One more thing I had all my Amalgams out as well that did not make any differenc

either.

It did make my teeth look a whole lot better and that was the reason for the

treatments.

C

--

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March 31, 2002

> > > > Fran:

> > > >

> > > > There are lots of ways you might have come by your low temp.

The

> > > trick

> > > > is to FORCE it up to 98.6F for a day to let your brain see

what

> > it

> > > is

> > > > like. The drugs of choice are T3 and T2. You should join

Yahoo's

> > > > WS-Forum, which is concerned with these methods. After that

day,

> > > warm

> > > > clothing, hot morning showers, and some espresso when you

first

> > get

> > > up

> > > > help you jump up to 98.6F after you stop taking the drugs.

> > > >

> > > > You might look around for a doctor who specializes

in " 's

> > > > Syndrome therapy " . Alternatively, order everything they have

> from

> > > > <www.wilsonssyndrome.org> and become an expert yourself.

> > > >

> > > > However, you probably don't have genuine 's Syndrome,

but

> > > rather

> > > > have Chronic Central Hypothermia, a misprogramming of your

> > > metabolic

> > > > control system. The treatments for these two conditions are

very

> > > > similar, except that CCH treatment is best done in just one

day,

> > > > whereas WS threatment is usually stretched out for a week or

> two.

> > > >

> > > > Your baby may also require some help in this regard ASAP to

> avoid

> > a

> > > > LOT of problems later in life.

> > > >

> > > > Steve

> > > > ===========

> > > > ---

> > >

> >

>

**********************************************************************

> > > This message may contain information which is confidential or

> > privileged.

> > > If you are not the intended recipient, please advise the sender

> > immediately

> > > by reply e-mail and delete this message and any attachments

> > > without retaining a copy.

> > >

> >

>

**********************************************************************

March 31, 2002

Fran:

How about some actual temperatures for us to consider? The most

important are afternoon and basal (when you first wake up). Leave the

thermometer in a LONG time so we don't need to worry much about

accuracy.

Steve

==============

> > LAF (IMHO) starts as a low-level systemic problem of some

> description or

> > another (as yet not totally defined for all cases by *anyone*).

>

> There

> > seem to be all sorts of possibilities that could be included in

> this

> > list - among them mercury amalgams, food intolerances, vagal

> > stimulation, thyroid- and adrenal-related issues

> (whether " pathological "

> > or " hidden " ), low-body temperature due to thyroid etc, (and don't

> forget

> > there is one very simple low body temp mechanism - low temp causes

> low

> > heart rate which can trigger AF), also all sorts of other things

> which

> > are included in the usual remit of major problems recognised by

> > conventional medicine - heart valve problems, enlarged heart, etc

> etc.

>

> I agree with this 100%.

>

> >

> > What I have observed is that people who get active and research

> what

> > works for *them* in the early stages of LAF seem to have a good

> success

> > rate - and all power to them - Steve and Victor Thorunyi are

> amongst

> > those I know of offhand. I also counted myself amongst them at

one

> > point - so much so I *nearly* asked them to exclude my AF from my

> very

> > expensive income-if-sick insurance - now so glad I didn't !!>

> > HOWEVER - and it's a big however - or rather two howevers.

> >

> > 1. If you do not *stop* your AF and all its underlying cause(s)

> then

> > because AF causes remodelling, the ultimate cause of developed AF

> can be

> > the early AF itself. This is why people who get to a

> personal " cure "

> > early and get results are the lucky ones and hopefully they can

> stay

> > AF-free. For those who don't, then AFAIK, undoing of remodelling

> is

> > still not understood - i.e. whether it really can happen or not -

> and

> > therefore they are likely to be stuck with it.

>

> I wish I had actively looked into AF early on. I did it rather late.

> (I have had it for around twenty years now). When I discovered my

> intolerance for additives I made a remarkable difference to my AF.

It

> is always slow now (the antibiotic course I am on at the moment has

> actually speeded it up by about 10 beats per minutes to around 75

and

> dropped my BP at the bottom end (?distolic) by another ten, so I am

> reading 90/45-50 again). But this is ok to get better from

infection.

>

> Anyway I digress, what I am saying is that if I had the way to slow

> my AF rate down, then surely I have the power to remodel my sinus

> ryhthym. Surely this remodeling, if this is really what it is, works

> the other way too. Light excercise will put me in sinus, heavy will

> make ectopics etc. Its only at rest I am constantly irregular. So

> that cannot be chronic AF.

>

> My hope is that my low temp is causing the irregularity. When I

> excercise my temperature goes up - hence sinus (?). Or maybe it is

> because the the stronger pumping action goes through the strongest

> channel I have had since birth (?). Maybe it is none of the above.

> Either way, there must be a way.

>

> I still live in hope that I will conquer it.

>

> Fran

>

> >

> > " You can convert some of the people some of the time,

> > but you can't convert all of the people all of the time "

> >

--------------------------------------------------------------------

> -------------------------

March 31, 2002

on Sun, 31 Mar 2002 at 22:04:21, fross2001 wrote :

>Surely this remodeling, if this is really what it is, works

>the other way too.

I don't think anyone knows - ISTR seeing a discussion recently where

they were discussing whether this could happen. A NASPE paper (ref'd on

my site) thinks Vit C might slow it down. I tend to think it might not

happen - a bit like scar tissue never heals, though I'd love to be

proven wrong.

--

Best of health to all,

Vicky

London, UK, 1954 model

http://www.vagalafibportal.fsnet.co.uk/

" Recapture Hearing Your True Heart Melody " - R.

-----------------------------------------------------------

April 1, 2002

<<:

With good mercury thermometers, you can consistently get readings that

agree within 0.2F of each other (usually within 0.05F, even with

thermometers from different manufacturers), and which are consistent

with your physical condition. By simply leaving them in long enough,

they WILL eventually accurately settle on your internal temperature,

though this can take 15 minutes to happen. When I started this, I

always used at least two thermometers from different manufacturers,

but quickly discovered that where was less than 0.2F between the most

extreme high and low of the several new and old thermometers in my

collection.>>

I did the experiment last year with 3 mercury thermometers, I also had to keep

them in my mouth for 10-15 minutes.(If you can get hold of an old style

thermometer it will get there slightly quicker - I assume because it has

thinner glass in it)

It turned out I thought my early morning temperatures were low but I

discounted this when I switched to an ear thermometer. My theory is that

if you happen to be somebody who breaths through their mouths when they are

asleep then no wonder the mouth temperature will be lower (a point I've never

read on any of the low basal temperature sites that recommend taking mouth

temperatures first thing). Not only is the mouth temperature below core

temperature but it's not a constant distance away from core temperature. To

get the closest result you would probably have to keep you mouth shut for a

few hours then take a reading for 15 minutes or so - not very practical and I

still think it would be lower than core temp.

<<In any case, bodies that are stuck at low night time temperature are

usually a full degree (F) lower than those operating at daytime

temperatures, so ultimate accuracy is absolutely no issue at all.

Anyone who can't differeentiate between two readings that are a degree

apart has much bigger (mental) problems than their AF!

OK, so prove me wrong. What IS your afternoon temperature?>>

I was taking a reading every 3 hours or so when I did the experiment so I've

extracted 10 days worth of readings taking the one that fell between

12:00 and 18:00

The average mouth temp comes out at...

98.68 - sot lets call it 98.7

for the same 10 days my temperature under the tongue first thing when I woke

up was

97.67

doing the same trick with an ear thermometer.

average afternoon temp over 10 days was

99.41

and first thing in the morning was

98.85

I have no objections to people looking at their temperatures but want to

stress that it's not as straight forward as they may think. Taking your mouth

temperature first thing in a morning, I believe for some, will be a waste of

time and the rest of the day it will be lower than core temperature no matter

how long you keep the thing in for.

These are my personal findings so anyone wishing to drop dead because of what

I've said here does so without blaming me

Current temp is 98.8 (12:30 pm)

all the best

--

D (33, Leeds, UK)

April 1, 2002

:

Hmmm, there were some definite surprises here. Your body (is supposed

to) use temperature to tell all systems whether you are awake or

asleep - but your morning or " basal " temperature is way too high for

this to be working right, so, for example, you probably get up several

times each night to use the toilet because your digestion hasn't shut

down for the night, you probably need more sleep than most because it

isn't as effective, etc. I went through all this with my daughter, who

had about the same temps as you do.

Just to make absolutely sure these night time temps are accurate, you

should probably take your temp in the middle of the night some time.

As you are very aware, we don't want to treat an inacurate

thermometer. However, considering the much less than one degree

difference between basal and afternoon temps, I tend to dismiss this.

The quick test is to depress your night time temp with Melatonin and

see what happens. The dosage is typically " threshold " in that it

doesn't do much until you find your own personal threshold dosage.

Further, sublingual pills are preferred due to their more predictable

dosing (your liver tries to destroy the melatonin from your digestive

tract, so you only get the 10% or so that your liver misses, which can

vary quite a bit, depending on what you had for dinner).

This is usually a " lifestyle condition " brought on by bright evening

lights (wear sunglasses after sunset), sleeping too warmly (wear an

insulated vest and not much else at night), not enough exercise, etc.,

i.e. there isn't anything organically wrong with you, though some

incompetent doctor might diagnose you as being " hypERthyroid " and want

to damage your slightly better-than-normal thyroid in some way, e.g.

with radioactive iodine.

Yes, this can cause AF, though the mechanism is completely different

than mine - more of a complete opposite. Presuming a sedentary

lifestyle, you will need very little adrenaline, and hence need very

little vagal stimulation to moderate your heart rate. Indeed, you may

need SO little that you just can't shut these systems that far down.

When you DO finally dump a little adrenaline or inadvertently

stimulate your vagal system, it is not under closed loop regulation.

These discontinuous actions end up sending errant signals to your

heart, which recognizes them as errant and goes into defensive

fibrillation to keep from trying to do the crazy things that the

errant signals say to do.

We still don't know whether it is your adrenal or your vagal system

that is the first to cause problems, but we need to get both of these

systems " off of the rail " (which they MUST be on with such a

stable temperature) anyway, so it may not be worth the effort to

figure out. Also, we don't know whether your are bumping the rail from

above or below - whether you are usually in the normal closed-loop

region and bump the rail, or are usually in the adrenal/vagal shut

down region and sometimes just enter the normal closed-loop region.

I'll guess that you are usually in the shut down region. Why? Because

you are pretty bright, so if you noticed that this or that made you

feel better, then you would be doing this or that. However, being in

the shut down region, the queues are REVERSED - the things that you

need to do to put you into normal operation make you feel WORSE before

they make you feel better, because you must " pass the rail " or go

through the operating region that precipitates AF.

So what do you do to get out of this mess? Probably the first thing to

do is to get a lab test that tells you that something isn't right at

some point up the cause and effect chain, just so you can really

believe that Steve (I) am right. I believe that if you will test

positive for a " melatonin imbalance " if you can find a doctor who is

at least tuned in enough to know about these tests. The " Great

Smokies " lab has a mail-order test for this.

However, I suspect that treating this as a melatonin imbalance won't

actually fix your AF. I suspect that you may have to make some

significant lifestyle changes to increase the demands on your thyroid,

so your adrenal systems needs to pick up the slack, so your vagal

system is needed for regulation, so that everything stays " off of the

rail " and in the linear operating region.

Of course, the REALLY hard part is to first convince yourself to do

things that will make you briefly feel worse, then keep doing them in

the sure knowledge that you will again get worse if you stop.

Obviously, you must REALLY convince yourself that this is the thing to

do before proceeding.

In a way I envy your condition. I have a bunch of half-burnt glands so

that I can never become an athlete, whereas your glands sound like

they are in REALLY great shape - just too great for your lifestyle.

I hopes this helps.

Steve

=================

> <<:

>

> With good mercury thermometers, you can consistently get readings

that

> agree within 0.2F of each other (usually within 0.05F, even with

> thermometers from different manufacturers), and which are consistent

> with your physical condition. By simply leaving them in long enough,

> they WILL eventually accurately settle on your internal temperature,

> though this can take 15 minutes to happen. When I started this, I

> always used at least two thermometers from different manufacturers,

> but quickly discovered that where was less than 0.2F between the

most

> extreme high and low of the several new and old thermometers in my

> collection.>>

>

> I did the experiment last year with 3 mercury thermometers, I also

had to keep

> them in my mouth for 10-15 minutes.(If you can get hold of an old

style

> thermometer it will get there slightly quicker - I assume because it

has

> thinner glass in it)

>

> It turned out I thought my early morning temperatures were low but I

> discounted this when I switched to an ear thermometer. My theory is

that

> if you happen to be somebody who breaths through their mouths when

they are

> asleep then no wonder the mouth temperature will be lower (a point

I've never

> read on any of the low basal temperature sites that recommend taking

mouth

> temperatures first thing). Not only is the mouth temperature below

core

> temperature but it's not a constant distance away from core

temperature. To

> get the closest result you would probably have to keep you mouth

shut for a

> few hours then take a reading for 15 minutes or so - not very

practical and I

> still think it would be lower than core temp.

>

> <<In any case, bodies that are stuck at low night time temperature

are

> usually a full degree (F) lower than those operating at daytime

> temperatures, so ultimate accuracy is absolutely no issue at all.

> Anyone who can't differeentiate between two readings that are a

degree

> apart has much bigger (mental) problems than their AF!

>

> OK, so prove me wrong. What IS your afternoon temperature?>>

>

> I was taking a reading every 3 hours or so when I did the experiment

so I've

> extracted 10 days worth of readings taking the one that fell between

> 12:00 and 18:00

>

> The average mouth temp comes out at...

> 98.68 - sot lets call it 98.7

>

> for the same 10 days my temperature under the tongue first thing

when I woke

> up was

> 97.67

>

> doing the same trick with an ear thermometer.

> average afternoon temp over 10 days was

> 99.41

>

> and first thing in the morning was

> 98.85

>

> I have no objections to people looking at their temperatures but

want to

> stress that it's not as straight forward as they may think. Taking

your mouth

> temperature first thing in a morning, I believe for some, will be a

waste of

> time and the rest of the day it will be lower than core temperature

no matter

> how long you keep the thing in for.

>

> These are my personal findings so anyone wishing to drop dead

because of what

> I've said here does so without blaming me

>

> Current temp is 98.8 (12:30 pm)

>

> all the best

>

> --

> D (33, Leeds, UK)

April 1, 2002

Vicky:

The big question in my mind is whether " remodeling " is an emergent

property, i.e. which way does cause and effect work?!

Perhaps you remember my 80-16-3-1 rule, where 80% of your problems are

from one source, and 80% of the remainder are from another, etc., etc.

I suspect that even some of the various " successful " treatments (like

mine) are hitting the 16% factor, leaving the really BIG problems

unaddressed. So just what IS the BIG problem? I don't know, though

mercury is high on my suspect list. If this WERE the situation, than

people with a worse underlying problem, who got that way by being sick

longer, will be seen to be harder to help. To an external observer, it

would look like remodeling were alive and well, when in fact the major

factor had simply continued to get worse.

OK, so you rip your amalgams out and it makes no difference. The

mercury in your brain has already done most of its damage by causing

your brain to develop differently while you were a child, and the

remainder is stuck in there with a half life of 20-30 years, so of

course ripping your amalgams out doesn't make much difference.

There are some complex chelation approaches to get the mercury out of

your brain faster, but I haven't yet found an afibber who has tried

them (yet), and I always hate to be the first to try things.

Then again, maybe mercury has nothing to do with it, or it has already

done its damage, or there is nothing we can do about it, or...

Steve

==============

> on Sun, 31 Mar 2002 at 22:04:21, fross2001 <fross@e...> wrote :

> >Surely this remodeling, if this is really what it is, works

> >the other way too.

>

> I don't think anyone knows - ISTR seeing a discussion recently where

> they were discussing whether this could happen. A NASPE paper

(ref'd on

> my site) thinks Vit C might slow it down. I tend to think it might

not

> happen - a bit like scar tissue never heals, though I'd love to be

> proven wrong.

>

> --

> Best of health to all,

> Vicky

>

> London, UK, 1954 model

> http://www.vagalafibportal.fsnet.co.uk/

>

> " Recapture Hearing Your True Heart Melody " - R.

> -----------------------------------------------------------

April 1, 2002

Hi Steve,

thanks for the reply. The point I was trying to make has somewhat being

strengthened by your reply. I assume you think my basal temperature is high

because I gave the ear temperature (98.85), if you only saw my under the

tongue temp (97.67) would you have said I was low normal? (As I understand it

the healthy range is between 97.7 and 98.2 for basal temps)

I'm assuming here that by far the commonest way that people measure their

temperature is a mercury thermometer under the tongue rather than tympanic

temperature. Given the discrepancy between the two temperatures and the lack

of information out there on how to accurately record true temperatures I

struggle to see how you, or anyone, can come to any conclusion.

As an aside, if I had any confidence in the temperature readings, which I

don't, I would repeat the experiment again before trying to conclude anything.

I was taking thyroxin at the time which is the simplest explanation for my

high temperatures. Now that my thyroid gland has allegedly recovered and I'm

no longer on thyroxin it would be interesting to see if the results were

similar. The other problem is that I am now overweight and don't get enough

exercise which could both be contributing to high temps but is certainly a

post AF problem. (that still needs sorting)

All the best

--

D

April 1, 2002

or... the mercury from dental amalgam and other sources is not the problem at

all!

Mike B

Toronto