Effexor

[Guest guest]

HI :

Perhaps some of the docs on this list will respond to this question

officially, or you can ask on one of the " Ask The Experts " sites.

What works for one OCDer may not work as well for another. Finding the

" right " SSRI/SRI is unfortunately often a matter of trial and error. I

have read information written by Dr. Jenike who uses Effexor quite

successfully with some of his patients although it is not always listed

among the typical anti-obsessional medications (Prozac, Luvox, Paxil,

Zoloft, Celexa and Anafranil).

I know there are at least two people connected with this list who take

Effexor, it is considered a very effective anti-depressant. This is a good

question to ask your son's doc. Good luck, aloha, Kathy (Ha)

kathyh@...

At 10:17 AM 8/17/99 EDT, you wrote:

>From: KARENH512@...

>

>Hi all, my son went to the doctor yesterday. He was started on Effexor. Has

>anyone had experience with this Rx? Or is there any one Rx most of you have

>found most successful for dealing with ocd/add? Thanks, karenh

>

[Guest guest]

Hi H!

Adi, my 13 yo, is on effexor. Presently she takes 150mg in the morning,

and 75mg after school. It is also the med. that I am taking for depression.

Neither of us have experienced any serious side effect.

Adi has contamination issues and lots of doubt. She also is excesively

polite (which I didnt know was part of ocd!!) and is a collector (wont be

called a hoarder!!). She is active on the teen ocdlist. Adi prefers to

follow self help, but comes to me for direction. Previously she has tried

Paxil.

Hope this is helpful, take care, wendy in canada

===================================

>From: KARENH512@...

>

>Hi all, my son went to the doctor yesterday. He was started on Effexor. Has

>anyone had experience with this Rx? Or is there any one Rx most of you have

>found most successful for dealing with ocd/add? Thanks, karenh

[Guest guest]

My main concern with this medication was that I read some posts where people

said that if they did not take it at the EXACT same time they began to

experience withdrawal symptoms, others said when they tried to gradually get

off this medication the withdrawal symptoms were terrible. Have you heard

anything about this? karenh

[Guest guest]

H.

We take the effexor when ever we rememeber. We take it after breakfast -

no matter what time that is!! Adi's dose after school is any time late

afternoon, with a snack. We both had indegestion when we were on larger

doses, but dont have that problem with food before.

In my opinion, as long as withdrawl is gradual, as with any of the meds,

there shouldnt be any side effects. Sometimes our doc will reduce the dose

of one med for a week or less, and gradually add the other during the next

week. Quitting cold turkey will definatly bring an awful withdrawl - tried

it once myself!!!

I hope this is helpful, take care, wendy in canada

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Never apologize for asking questions!!!

I will give you my short version on ocd and genetics. If both parents

have ocd there is a chance that their children will have ocd. BUT, this is

not a for sure. Many parents may have one of the ocd spectrum disorders

(like anorexia, hypochondria, cumpulsive buying, trich (hair pulling), tics,

tourettes, etc. but not clinical ocd. Again, nothing is definate since they

havent found the exact 'gene'... The association of ocd with major

depression is 67%, phobias 40%, etc. so even ocd is rare on its own.

In our family, we appear to be a classic case for genetic studies.

My mother in law in bipolar, and definatly has ocd. She denies this, b/c

it is not really effecting her life. I beg to differ, but I'm only the

daughter in law!!

My brother in law is a hypochondriac. His wife is very much like him so

they are happy together!!

My husband is depressed, minor ocd - hoarding, routines, rituals for

washing...

My 16yo son, Tom is our worst case... counter, checker, washer, has poor

impulse control, hoarder, controlling, constantly seeks reassurance, etc...

due to his tendancy to become aggressive when he is not in control. He is

living in a group home at present.

My 13yo, is a doubter, apologizes all the time, contamination issues,

'collector', and is practicing cbt on her own with my guidance. She is

active on the ocd teen list.

My youngest, is 10. She is a hoarder, checker, cannot live in a tidy

environment, and has excessive anxiety.

All three deal with depression ranging from suicidal to mild.

Me? no I dont have ocd, but I do have dysphemia (long term depression)and

perhaps minor forms of one or another of the spectrum disorders.

Like many parents, I did a self test to see if I was obsessing over my

kids!!!

>The reason I ask is because I was an anxious child and I even had

>nervous tics once in awhile. You know what? I don't tell this to many

>people but I still get those tics once in awhile when I'm under stress.

>I'm wondering if this has anything to do with Keenan's OCD behaviour.<

, I would suggest that your tics are caused by your stress, just like

you said. There may be a link to ocd. Does that make a difference to you?

I'm asking b/c this is debated often.

> Do you guys have really argumentative kids, too?? <

That is a big understatement!! It was worse, but I/we have really gained

a lot of ground since Tom moved out. The argueing is a form of ocd. The

uncertainty, also called doubt, the reassurance that they are sure of

something, the need for control... etc. Definatly was a biggy here for a

while. Now I give my answer, repeat once, and then either change the

subject, hang up the phone, leave the room - whatever - but I will not

engage in the arguement.

I hope that I have offered some insight, and not confused you even

more!! there are a lot of resources on the net.

Remember to take care of yourself, wendy in canada

[Guest guest]

,

I'm just curious, you said that you and your child both take Effexor. Is

this for the OCD? Do you have it, too? Does anyone know if OCD is

genetic?? The reason I ask is because I was an anxious child and I even had

nervous tics once in awhile. You know what? I don't tell this to many

people but I still get those tics once in awhile when I'm under stress. I'm

wondering if this has anything to do with Keenan's OCD behaviour. Do you

guys have really argumentative kids, too?? Please forgive me! This is all

so new to me.

Thanks for listening.

Re: effexor

> From: " W. Birk " <wb4@...>

>

> H.

>

> We take the effexor when ever we rememeber. We take it after

breakfast -

> no matter what time that is!! Adi's dose after school is any time late

> afternoon, with a snack. We both had indegestion when we were on larger

> doses, but dont have that problem with food before.

>

> In my opinion, as long as withdrawl is gradual, as with any of the

meds,

> there shouldnt be any side effects. Sometimes our doc will reduce the dose

> of one med for a week or less, and gradually add the other during the next

> week. Quitting cold turkey will definatly bring an awful withdrawl - tried

> it once myself!!!

>

> I hope this is helpful, take care, wendy in canada

>

>

> ---------------------------

[Guest guest]

h,

My daughter is on this med. and I've noticed a lot of

aggitation in her if she doesn't take it the same time

everyday.

mary from la.

KARENH512@... wrote:

> From: KARENH512@...

>

> My main concern with this medication was that I read some posts where people

> said that if they did not take it at the EXACT same time they began to

> experience withdrawal symptoms, others said when they tried to gradually get

> off this medication the withdrawal symptoms were terrible. Have you heard

> anything about this? karenh

>

> ---------------------------

[Guest guest]

,

Thanks for the education. I definitely have some of the ocd spectrum

disorders.

Re: effexor> listserv@... .

[Guest guest]

,

I forgot to address one of your questions to me. I guess I'm just trying to

get rid of the guilt that I have that it wasn't something I've done to make

him this way. I constantly feel guilty and I'm so tired of feeling this

way.

So, I guess what I " m saying is that it wouldn't make such a big difference

to me if it was genetic, but it would if it was something i could have

prevented (i.e. if it was because of my parenting style).

----- Original Message ----- >

> , I would suggest that your tics are caused by your stress, just

like

> you said. There may be a link to ocd. Does that make a difference to you?

> I'm asking b/c this is debated often.

[Guest guest]

, Has she tried other medications, and does this one seem to work the

best? Thanks, karenh

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

ny and I are new to the list, but not new to OCD. I just wanted to

write to encourage you to hang in there. My son's OCD was evident from the

age of 4 or so on. He had separation anxiety, and used to nearly throw

himself out of windows trying to follow me when I had to go to work. He is

very argumentative and we have had (and still do at times) to deal with a lot

of anger and aggression in our relationship. There are definitely times when

he seems like another person. His obsessions have gotten less obvious as

he's gotten older. This year--his 12th--we spent trying medications for the

first time. We tried Luvox and Ritalin and Imipramine, Nortryptaline and

Clomiprimine. Currently he's only taking 40 mg of Elavil (Amatryptaline) a

day. The other medications either gave him enormous headaches or made him

even more erratic. Elavil is an anti-anxiety drug, which seems to calm him

down enough inside so that he can be himself. I resisted medications for

years out of a fear of making him a " zombie " -- but I wish I had begun the

search earlier. The medication hasn't made him a zombie, but has allowed him

to be more himself, and to be able to talk about what he is feeling and

thinking less emotionally. We still have incidents of OCD which can destroy a

day. They also can shift and change, which can be frustrating. And he can

still get violent when things don't go his way, or his feelings get hurt.

Sometimes a very little thing can make him feel his whole world is in danger

and he must fight for it or die. But slowly he is learning to manage these

things on his own. My job is to stay calm and understanding. To not resort

to traditional " punishment " type of responses (which did no good anyway) and

to keep assuring him that I believe in him and that he will get control of

these behaviors in time on his own.

I am a single parent so I often found myself desperate and frustrated and

angry with my child, my life and OCD. The best thing I have learned to do,

is to accept that my child is not " normal, " that there are people out there

who can help us, and that I may be helping him to deal with these issues for

a long long time. We have been through several years of therapy, several

" special schools " and are currently homeschooling (it took us a whole

semester out of regular school to find a med that would work for him). At

first pulling him out of school frightened me and depressed us both. I tried

not to look at it as the " end " of anything -- or a " failure. " It was what we

needed to do-- so we did it. Thankfully ny is very bright and hasn't

fallen behind in his work, but he may never feel comfortable in a regular

classroom situation. I take it one issue at a time, try not to feel guilt

about my exhaustion or temper, work two part time jobs so I have the

flexibility to be with him when he needs it, have moved closer to my family

(and have tried to educate them to his condition) for support and try to make

each of his days as positive and forward looking as possible.

Good luck to you. Hang in there! Its a wild and mysterious

journey--OCD--for both you and your child, but it can bring you closer to

your child and things definitely do get better as you and your child grow up

together.

Barbara and ny

[Guest guest]

h,

She took zoloft for 3 years and it did the same thing.

Prevacid has made a tremendous difference for her.

Thanks,

mary from la.

KARENH512@... wrote:

> From: KARENH512@...

>

> , Has she tried other medications, and does this one seem to work the

> best? Thanks, karenh

>

> ---------------------------

[Guest guest]

My son has OCD and my daughter shows some small signs of anxiety (tics, nail

biting) All my research showes that it does run in the family.

C.

[Guest guest]

h,

We have tried zoloft, prozac, manorex, paxil, effexor, serazone,

anafranil/clomipramine, respiradol, trazadone, hmm, let me think what

else!!!

What do you worry about?? Right now, 3 ocders are taking zoloft and 1

ocder is on effexor. tom takes anafranil and zoloft.

What works for one doesnt necessarily work for another. The exception is

that they all tend to need a high than average dose before they see any

results. What works for me, or my husband, is also more likely to work on

the kids. I understand that everyone is an individual, so trial and error is

the best path.

wendy in canada

[Guest guest]

Thanks for that info, Sharon. I will ask her about the Celexa next time I see

her. I haven't given the other much time yet. Was on Prozac for about 6

years. It helped at first, but was not doing the job anymore. That's why she

switched me.

(Michigan)

[Guest guest]

,

I mentioned the withdrawls because I've gone through them! ITs the worst

flu you could imagine! Not a pleasant experience - which goes away within

hours of taking a pill!

You have to remember that each person is an individual and that we all

will react differently to the same medication. I would guess that so many of

us are on Effexor because it is a good anti-depressant and really does have

very few side effects. It is always better to be educated and aware over

ignorance. Children and adults can experience the same side effects, but I

cant imagine a kid complaining about lowered libido!

Kathy has made mention many times at how taking the anti-d's has offered

her insight into Steve's life. Perhaps this experience will allow you to

understand what a difference chemical correction can make in a brain.

" Boss Back " those second thoughts!! Now, go take your pill!

wendy in canada

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[Guest guest]

~

Oh gosh, if our youngsters became worried about libido we would have a whole other set of problems on our hands. God help me!!!!!!!!

And I am going to take my pill. First thing in the morning. I am finding that I may have some OCDish behavior of my own. My biggest worry right now is that something horrible is going to happen to me after taking the pill. I suppose I am going to have seizures or die or something. It is just pure craziness. Who would think a little pill could be aganized over so much!!! Anyway, I am going to take it first thing in the morning. I would have taken it today but I called the pharmacist to find out if there was any reaction between Dexatrim and Effexor. He felt that although nothing horrible would happen they would probably ex each other out because the dexatrim can cause you to be jittery and anxious. So I am just going to stop taking it in the morning and then start the Effexor.

Wish me luck and pray that I don't come up with anymore excuses between now and morning!!

"W. Birkhan" <wb4@...> wrote:

, I mentioned the withdrawls because I've gone through them! ITs the worst flu you could imagine! Not a pleasant experience - which goes away within hours of taking a pill! You have to remember that each person is an individual and that we all will react differently to the same medication. I would guess that so many of us are on Effexor because it is a good anti-depressant and really does have very few side effects. It is always better to be educated and aware over ignorance. Children and adults can experience the same side effects, but I cant imagine a kid complaining about lowered libido! Kathy has made mention many times at how taking the anti-d's has offered her insight into Steve's life. Perhaps this experience will allow you to understand what a difference chemical correction can make in a brain. "Boss Back" those second thoughts!! Now, go take your pill!wendy in canada_________________________________________________________________________Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com.You may subscribe to the OCD-L by emailing listserv@... . In the body of your message write: subscribe OCD-L your name. You may subscribe to the Parents of Adults with OCD List at parentsofadultswithOCD . You may access the files, links, and archives for our list at . Our list advisors are Tamar Chansky, Ph.D., and Aureen Pinto Wagner, Ph.D. Our list moderators are Birkhan, Kathy Hammes, Jule Monnens, Gail Pesses, Roman, and Jackie Stout. Subscription issues, problems, or suggestions may be addressed to Louis Harkins, list owner, at harkins@... .

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I want to tell you that I'm taking a herbal medication for relaxation that

has no side effect at all. Its called " KALMS'. I take six tablets p/d two

with every meal. It makes me very calm & face all the pressere I somtimes

face with my son with OCD.I wonder if you can find it in your erea.

Huda

>From: " Busch " <stacybusch@...>

>Reply-egroups

>egroups

>Subject: Effexor

>Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 21:41:36 -0000

>

>Can anyone tell me anything about these horrible withdrawl symptoms I

>am reading about with Effexor? I have been reading alot about " brain

>shocks " , as well as other things. Quite frankly, I am a little

>afraid to take anything after everything I have read. Are these

>horrible side effects common? I really trust all of your opinions

>here so any feedback would be truly appreciated.

>

>Also, do our children get these side effects when they use the anti'd

>for OCD??? If it seems scary to me I can only imagine how they might

>feel.

>

>Thanks again.

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Hi :

Paxil and Effexor are known for producing flu-like symptoms when suddenly

discontinued. Slow titration off these medications is the way around this.

Steve recently titrated off Paxil and onto Luvox and I was amazed at how

well this went. Of course, people have different responses to different

meds and so you can't know for sure how things will go for you or your kids

until the new med is tried or going off meds is attempted.

It is not likely that we can take any medication without experiencing some

side effects. Medications that affect serotonin not only help with mood

and anxiety but also affect other body systems like gastrointestinal,

sleep, etc. Some of these effects are positive and some not so positive.

For example I notice that unfortunately I need about 1-1.5 hours more sleep

each night but the sleep I do get is generally uninterrupted, I fall asleep

very readily, and often enjoy vivid and highly interesting dreams which I

never could remember before Effexor.

Taking meds has given me a new appreciation for what this must be like for

Steve and I feel very badly that we let the doctor titrate him up way too

fast when he first took SSRIs. We simply did not know enough about what we

were getting him into, and were so desperate to stop his suicide attempts

that we were not thinking as clearly as we do now.

I felt a lot like you in the beginning, we tried lots of approaches to

avoid Steve taking medications. Unfortunately his OCD was too severe and

complicated by MDD. Now I feel very grateful that people have discovered

and developed the SSRIs as when he is on them he has his life back and his

MDD is mostly under control. Certainly he is more sleepy, gains weight,

but he is able to enjoy life and it a pleasure to live with. Right now,

off them he rapidly falls apart and suffers from life-threatening

depression.

Good luck, take care, aloha, Kathy (H)

kathyh@...

At 09:41 PM 09/27/2000 -0000, you wrote:

>Can anyone tell me anything about these horrible withdrawl symptoms I

>am reading about with Effexor? I have been reading alot about " brain

>shocks " , as well as other things. Quite frankly, I am a little

>afraid to take anything after everything I have read. Are these

>horrible side effects common? I really trust all of your opinions

>here so any feedback would be truly appreciated.

>

>Also, do our children get these side effects when they use the anti'd

>for OCD??? If it seems scary to me I can only imagine how they might

>feel.

>

>Thanks again.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I am slowly titrating off of Effexor while I am also slowly starting Wellbutrin.

I am at the full dose of Wellbutrin now and taking only a little of Effexor and

I am having no adverse side effects from getting off the Effexor. I notice less

carbo craving with Wellbutrin, so far, but I also notice more restless sleep.

I'll give it 6 months, see if I lose weight and the sleep stuff diminishes, and

if not I'll go back on Effexor.

Dana in NC

[Guest guest]

>My biggest worry right now is that something horrible<

> is going to happen to me after taking the pill. <

,

Something absolutely awful is going to happen to you when you take it in

the morning without eating first - HEARTBURN!!!

Go girl!! wendy, in canada

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[Guest guest]

Dana~

Thanks, I needed to hear that someone wasn't getting "brain shocks". I know it sounds silly but that really scares me!

Dana <clayvon@...> wrote:

I am slowly titrating off of Effexor while I am also slowly starting Wellbutrin. I am at the full dose of Wellbutrin now and taking only a little of Effexor and I am having no adverse side effects from getting off the Effexor. I notice less carbo craving with Wellbutrin, so far, but I also notice more restless sleep. I'll give it 6 months, see if I lose weight and the sleep stuff diminishes, and if not I'll go back on Effexor.Dana in NCYou may subscribe to the OCD-L by emailing listserv@... . In the body of your message write: subscribe OCD-L your name. You may subscribe to the Parents of Adults with OCD List at parentsofadultswithOCD . You may access the files, links, and archives for our list at . Our list advisors are Tamar Chansky, Ph.D., and Aureen Pinto Wagner, Ph.D. Our list moderators are Birkhan, Kathy Hammes, Jule Monnens, Gail Pesses, Roman, and Jackie Stout. Subscription issues, problems, or suggestions may be addressed to Louis Harkins, list owner, at harkins@... .

[Guest guest]

Thanks Kathy. I am okay with flu like side effects. And I am certain after reading all of these posts that I will not ever abruptly quit these things. It sounds as though that is when the side effects get severe.

Thanks again~

Kathy Hammes <kathyh@...> wrote:

Hi :Paxil and Effexor are known for producing flu-like symptoms when suddenlydiscontinued. Slow titration off these medications is the way around this.Steve recently titrated off Paxil and onto Luvox and I was amazed at howwell this went. Of course, people have different responses to differentmeds and so you can't know for sure how things will go for you or your kidsuntil the new med is tried or going off meds is attempted.It is not likely that we can take any medication without experiencing someside effects. Medications that affect serotonin not only help with moodand anxiety but also affect other body systems like gastrointestinal,sleep, etc. Some of these effects are positive and some not so positive.For example I notice that unfortunately I need about 1-1.5 hours more sleepeach night but the sleep I do get is generally uninterrupted, I fall asleepvery readily, and often enjoy vivid and highly interesting dreams which Inever could remember before Effexor.Taking meds has given me a new appreciation for what this must be like forSteve and I feel very badly that we let the doctor titrate him up way toofast when he first took SSRIs. We simply did not know enough about what wewere getting him into, and were so desperate to stop his suicide attemptsthat we were not thinking as clearly as we do now. I felt a lot like you in the beginning, we tried lots of approaches toavoid Steve taking medications. Unfortunately his OCD was too severe andcomplicated by MDD. Now I feel very grateful that people have discoveredand developed the SSRIs as when he is on them he has his life back and hisMDD is mostly under control. Certainly he is more sleepy, gains weight,but he is able to enjoy life and it a pleasure to live with. Right now,off them he rapidly falls apart and suffers from life-threateningdepression. Good luck, take care, aloha, Kathy (H)kathyh@...At 09:41 PM 09/27/2000 -0000, you wrote:>Can anyone tell me anything about these horrible withdrawl symptoms I >am reading about with Effexor? I have been reading alot about "brain >shocks", as well as other things. Quite frankly, I am a little >afraid to take anything after everything I have read. Are these >horrible side effects common? I really trust all of your opinions >here so any feedback would be truly appreciated. >>Also, do our children get these side effects when they use the anti'd >for OCD??? If it seems scary to me I can only imagine how they might >feel.>>Thanks again.>>You may subscribe to the OCD-L by emailing listserv@... . In the body of your message write: subscribe OCD-L your name. You may subscribe to the Parents of Adults with OCD List at parentsofadultswithOCD . You may access the files, links, and archives for our list at . Our list advisors are Tamar Chansky, Ph.D., and Aureen Pinto Wagner, Ph.D. Our list moderators are Birkhan, Kathy Hammes, Jule Monnens, Gail Pesses, Roman, and Jackie Stout. Subscription issues, problems, or suggestions may be addressed to Louis Harkins, list owner, at harkins@... .

[Guest guest]

Thanks Huda, I will look into that if this doesn't work. I am really bad about taking meds. so I am trying to find something that I only have to take once a day. However, I will put the name you gave me in my back pocket just in case.

Thanks~

Huda AbiRafeh <hudaabirafeh@...> wrote:

Hi ,I want to tell you that I'm taking a herbal medication for relaxation that has no side effect at all. Its called "KALMS'. I take six tablets p/d two with every meal. It makes me very calm & face all the pressere I somtimes face with my son with OCD.I wonder if you can find it in your erea.Huda>From: " Busch" <stacybusch@...>>Reply-egroups>egroups>Subject: Effexor>Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 21:41:36 -0000>>Can anyone tell me anything about these horrible withdrawl symptoms I>am reading about with Effexor? I have been reading alot about "brain>shocks", as well as other things. Quite frankly, I am a little>afraid to take anything after everything I have read. Are these>horrible side effects common? I really trust all of your opinions>here so any feedback would be truly appreciated.>>Also, do our children get these side effects when they use the anti'd>for OCD??? If it seems scary to me I can only imagine how they might>feel.>>Thanks again.>>>_________________________________________________________________________Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com.You may subscribe to the OCD-L by emailing listserv@... . In the body of your message write: subscribe OCD-L your name. You may subscribe to the Parents of Adults with OCD List at parentsofadultswithOCD . You may access the files, links, and archives for our list at . Our list advisors are Tamar Chansky, Ph.D., and Aureen Pinto Wagner, Ph.D. Our list moderators are Birkhan, Kathy Hammes, Jule Monnens, Gail Pesses, Roman, and Jackie Stout. Subscription issues, problems, or suggestions may be addressed to Louis Harkins, list owner, at harkins@... .

[Guest guest]

~

LOL!!!!!!! You truly made me laugh. I had enough heartburn to last me a lifetime when I was pregnant. I think I might prefer "brain shocks"......

I took my first dose this morning and so far so good. I haven't died and my brain feels just fine.

Thanks for the sense of humor.

"W. Birkhan" <wb4@...> wrote:

>My biggest worry right now is that something horrible< > is going to happen to me after taking the pill. < , Something absolutely awful is going to happen to you when you take it in the morning without eating first - HEARTBURN!!! Go girl!! wendy, in canada_________________________________________________________________________Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com.You may subscribe to the OCD-L by emailing listserv@... . In the body of your message write: subscribe OCD-L your name. You may subscribe to the Parents of Adults with OCD List at parentsofadultswithOCD . You may access the files, links, and archives for our list at . Our list advisors are Tamar Chansky, Ph.D., and Aureen Pinto Wagner, Ph.D. Our list moderators are Birkhan, Kathy Hammes, Jule Monnens, Gail Pesses, Roman, and Jackie Stout. Subscription issues, problems, or suggestions may be addressed to Louis Harkins, list owner, at harkins@... .