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child i know what you are talking about.

as a matter of fact. i couldn't help myself and...........

bev maloy

BIGRD@...

bread

>From: " Peggy DesNoyers " <peggyd7123@...>

>

>I am struggling to deal with this candida thing!! Can you guys help me,

>please? I have been following the diet pretty well for three weeks and I

>feel much, much better. But I am craving bread. I smell it. I can taste

>it in my mouth. Can I try eating some of it now? Is it true that you

crave

>what you are probably allergic to? Am I missing a vitamin or mineral or

>something?

>

>I am taking Yeast Raiders from Puritan's Pride, evening primrose oil,

>garlic, VitC, a multivitamin, a multimineral and DHEA. Is there anything

>else I should take? The Yeast Raiders has acidolphilus, caprylic acid,

>biotin, fiber, vit c, zinc, selenium, barberry, ginger, thyme, cinnamon and

>pau d'arco in it.

>

>And by the way, what is stevia and where do I buy it? Do any of you take

>grape seed extract? Does it help?

>

>Thanks for any help you can give me. I'm starting to feel very lonely in

>this. Every body thinks I'm some sort of nut because of my diet.

>Peggy

>

>

>_______________________________________________________________

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  • 2 years later...

I have, several times. Once was in a restaurant from

bread that was served in a basket. In each case my

heart started racing also, which lasted 5-20 minutes

before settling back down again. It's a pretty weird

experience ...

Dave

-----------------

Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 23:58:19 -0000

From: phillipandlisa@...

Subject: Bread

Early today when I opened up a bag of bread I sensed an

overwhelming " yeasty " smell that was very strong. I then developed a

headache. Has anyone every experienced something like this??

D

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  • 7 months later...
Guest guest

dianatrudeau@... writes:

> Thank God that was tongue in cheek... someone has waaaaay too much time on

> their hands lol

And that's the whole point. That there are those out there who will create

" statistics " to prove whatever point they might want to make, but that

doesn't make it valid.

And yes - that's why I intentionally pointed out that it was tongue-in-cheek

in the beginning - to avoid anyone potentially getting worked up about it!

:)

rachel~

" The greatest risk is not taking any.

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KJ

They did it intentionally to prove the point that just because someone comes

up with statistics doesn't mean they make sense.

rachel~

PEACEJ@... writes:

> This is ridiculous! I can't believe someone actually takes time to 'create'

> statistics this bad!!

>

" The greatest risk is not taking any.

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Guest guest

Thank God that was tongue in cheek... someone has waaaaay too much time on

their hands lol

This was posted to the gallstone list in response to the thread about

garlic.

(Note: This is completely tongue-in-cheek )

=================================

The Dangers of Bread

(and all grain products)

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  • 3 years later...

>

> Hi all,

> I just joined this group and am so excited to perhaps finally get some

> answers to a ton of questions I have about native nutrition/weston

> price ideas.

> The question I am most curious about concerns sourdough bread. If

> flours/grains must be soaked to be good for you...then how is

> sourdough bread okay since most of the flour is not " fermented " but

> added to the sourdough starter?

> -

>

This is just my guess. But I'm pretty certain I am right.

There are 2 ways to remove phytates from grains. One is from soaking

alone, where the phytase enzyme from the grain itself is activated and

it removes phytic acid. This cannot happen if you soak it in salt

water, and acidity speeds up this process greatly.

The second way is by fermentation where bacteria (maybe yeasts as

well) neutralize the phytic acid, or at least create lots of lactic

acid to speed up the process greatly, or maybe both. This can happen

in the presence of salt, and happens fast in sourdough bread cause the

cultures are extremely live and active when added to the flour. Most

of the flour is fermented in sourdough bread, even though it can

happen quite fast due to the very active cultures from the sourdough

starter.

Still, soaked porridge is usually considered easier to digest than

sourdough bread, but both are very nutritious and have most/all of the

phytic acid removed.

-

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There's a really cool study out of Morocco on sourdough versus yeast

bread. I think they fermented it for 16 hours. The phytates in the

sourdough were really reduced, like 80 - 90% less while the baking

yeast left them pretty much as they were. When you add the flour to

the sourdough starter, because it's wild yeast and not genetically

modified to be a fast rising type, it takes all day for the bread to r

ise. Meanwhile, the lactobacilli and leucostonoc bacteria build up

the acidity making it sour and destroy the phytates. There is also

some evidence that they destroy toxins from molds that are sometimes

on the grains. I think the lactobacilli reach maximum effectiveness

at 16 hours, so making the dough and leaving it in the refrigerator

overnight will give you maximum sourness and decrease in phytates.

By the way, if you're interested in making your own sourdough bread,

do you know there are electric grain mills that you can get to grind

your own wheat? The " whole wheat " flour in stores is often only 50%

whole wheat, and they have trouble with rancidity and nutrients

breaking down once it's ground. There's nothing like pure whole

grain wheat bread from fresh ground wheat! You don't even need to

knead it really, just mix it up, let it sit for half an hour and then

knead enough to mix the ingredients well. The gluten develops on it's

own! I've made bread with fresh ground flour and " fresh " flour from

the health food store and you can tell the difference between the two!

Sorry for rambling, I'm really excited about sourdough.

>

> Hi all,

> I just joined this group and am so excited to perhaps finally get

some

> answers to a ton of questions I have about native nutrition/weston

> price ideas.

> The question I am most curious about concerns sourdough bread. If

> flours/grains must be soaked to be good for you...then how is

> sourdough bread okay since most of the flour is not " fermented " but

> added to the sourdough starter?

> -

>

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Hi list!

haecklers wrote:

> By the way, if you're interested in making your own sourdough bread,

> do you know there are electric grain mills that you can get to grind

> your own wheat?

I have one. An add-on to this thing. Works well, but the sound is horrible!

http://www.electrolux.se/node35.asp?ProdID=26149

Sorry that the page is in Swedish. Too lazy to find an English one and

I think you can see what it is. I think I've seen stand-alone grain

mills too

hemul

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Thanks for the info.

I am excited to start sourdough (again). I have had bad luck in the

past. I am very into my homemade 100% whole wheat bread which I

finally perfected after throwing loaf after loaf out the backdoor to

the birds for 3 straight years. I am kind of dreading starting all

over again with a new method.

As to grainmills, I have only had store bought flour a couple times

and it was totally gross and yes, rancid. I grew up on home-milled

flour and got my own mill after my second bag of totally disgusting

King Arthur flour.

I am very interested if you have any tips on the sourdough. Any time

I have attempted it I have ended up with a dense, coarse, and very

strong-flavored loaf.

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>

> Thanks for the info.

> I am excited to start sourdough (again). I have had bad luck in the

> past. I am very into my homemade 100% whole wheat bread which I

> finally perfected after throwing loaf after loaf out the backdoor to

> the birds for 3 straight years. I am kind of dreading starting all

> over again with a new method.

> As to grainmills, I have only had store bought flour a couple times

> and it was totally gross and yes, rancid. I grew up on home-milled

> flour and got my own mill after my second bag of totally disgusting

> King Arthur flour.

> I am very interested if you have any tips on the sourdough. Any time

> I have attempted it I have ended up with a dense, coarse, and very

> strong-flavored loaf.

,

Our own Mrs. Siemens recently raved about some bread she made here:

http://onibasu.com/archives/nn/80030.html?highlight=sourdough%20amanda

" LOL. Ok to make the sourdough starter I mixed 1 cup of freshly strained

kefir (made with real kefir grains not a powdered culture) with 1 cup of

freshly ground whole wheat flour. I put it in a jar, covered with a coffee

filter held on by an elastic and put it in the cupboard for a few days,

stirring it once a day. It would get bubbly and rise, I'd just stir it

down

and put it back in th cupboard. After a few days I put it into a bowl

added

one cup of water (don't use chorinated!) and 1 cup fresh ground flour.

Covered and let go overnight. next morning I put one cup of that in

another

bowl, 1 cup in a mason jar and put the jar in the fridge for future bread,

to the starter in the bowl I added 3/4 cup water, 1 tsp sea salt, 1 1/5 t

honey (not raw), 2 tbsp olive oil or melted butter and mixed well.

Stir in 2

1/2 cups flour (now I did cheat this time and used half fresh ground whole

wheat and half white bread flour, with all my previous failures at

sourdough

I wanted to make sure this rose as much as possible LOL) When you

can't stir

anymore in knead on a flourd surface until good and elastic. Put in an

oiled

bowl, turning so top of dough is coated and place covered in a warm spot

until doubled (took about 6 hours). Punch down and knead in a bit more

flour

if needed until nice and elastic again. Form into a loaf and place in a

buttered bread pan (I used stoneware, it;s the best for making

sourdough). I

let rise again, about 3 hours then baked at 350 until nice and brown. When

the top was well browned, I took it out and removed the bread from the

pan.

I inserted a thermometer into the bottom of the loaf, you want 190F

(unless

you are at a high altitude then you want 195 or even 200) it wasn't there

yet so I put it back in the oven (not in the pan) and draped some tin foil

on top because the top was well browned already. I baked until the

thermometer read 190. Then cooled it on a rack and sliced it. Next time I

will make sure to put a shallow pan of water on the bottom rack of the

oven,

it makes for a nicer crust on sourdough. "

B.

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The interesting thing about the Moroccan study, for me, comes down this

sentence...

" Our most interesting results were found by combining two strains of lactic

acid bacteria with one strain of yeast (*L. plantarum *and *Leu.

mesenteroides* with *S. cerevisiae*) because of the high DRC (120 mL) and

the improvement in phytate reduction (85.4%). "

Kefir contains these two strains of lactic acid. After first having read

that study, I started using whey in my starter (recipe at

http://www.rejoiceinlife.com/), and also use it as part of my liquid when

making the bread. Also, mine sits in the fridge for a minimum of 24-hours,

and even often up to 48 hours before forming/baking.

Sharon, NH

On 2/18/06, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote:

>

> There's a really cool study out of Morocco on sourdough versus yeast

> bread. I think they fermented it for 16 hours. The phytates in the

> sourdough were really reduced, like 80 - 90% less while the baking

> yeast left them pretty much as they were.

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---

Would you have an idea how much phytate is in a serving of bread?

Dennis

In , " Sharon son "

<skericson@...> wrote:

>

> The interesting thing about the Moroccan study, for me, comes down

this

> sentence...

> " Our most interesting results were found by combining two strains

of lactic

> acid bacteria with one strain of yeast (*L. plantarum *and *Leu.

> mesenteroides* with *S. cerevisiae*) because of the high DRC (120

mL) and

> the improvement in phytate reduction (85.4%). "

> Kefir contains these two strains of lactic acid. After first

having read

> that study, I started using whey in my starter (recipe at

> http://www.rejoiceinlife.com/), and also use it as part of my

liquid when

> making the bread. Also, mine sits in the fridge for a minimum of

24-hours,

> and even often up to 48 hours before forming/baking.

> Sharon, NH

>

> On 2/18/06, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote:

> >

> > There's a really cool study out of Morocco on sourdough versus

yeast

> > bread. I think they fermented it for 16 hours. The phytates in

the

> > sourdough were really reduced, like 80 - 90% less while the

baking

> > yeast left them pretty much as they were.

>

>

>

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Hi, Dennis

That's a huge question I can't easily answer and boy, I wish I could. :)

For our family, we take the whey-sourdough-sponge route (Rejoice in Life

recipe for sponge and bread) eating long slow-rise fermented sourdough bread

typically made with sprouted wheat flour combined with some King Arthur

unbleached. Phytates are dependent on a number of variables including

whether you're talking about white or whole wheat and the pH in the

stomach/intestines as well as overall diet, just for openers. Here's a

thorough micronutrient doc that shows various phytic acid evaluations,

including some of these variables, as well as several study methods just to

give you an idea...

http://www.micronutrient.org/idpas/pdf/2510PhyticAcidAdded.pdf.

Sharon, NH

On 2/21/06, dkemnitz2000 <dkemnitz2000@...> wrote:

>

> ---

> Would you have an idea how much phytate is in a serving of bread?

> Dennis

>

>

>

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  • 3 months later...
Guest guest

When I'm feeling less-than-into baking I buy the Alvarado Street brand

sprouted bread. It has yeast but the grains are sprouted. I feel good when I eat

it

but i don't overdo.

Danae

" Mother's milk and mother's arms have always been available, patiently

waiting for the passing of man's foolhardy arrogance, which tried to convince us

that his inventions were superior to nature. "

Tine Thevenin

Baby boys are the only group in society having medically unnecessary

surgery without their consent.

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Guest guest

If it's sourdough, the bacteria in it that make it sour destroy most

of the phytates; regular yeast, probably.

>

> In NT, we all know that it is important to soak grains. If you are

> getting the " healthier " bread like the Food for Life bread, and if

> it's not sprouted should one assume that you are getting the mineral

> blocking phytic acids?

>

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Danae wrote:

> When I'm feeling less-than-into baking I buy the Alvarado Street

>brand sprouted bread. It has yeast but the grains are sprouted. I feel

>good when I eat it but i don't overdo.

~~~Another really great bread is Silver Hills. It is made with

sprouted wheat. It does have vital wheat gluten and yeast. But it's

probably about the best tasting sprouted bread I've ever had.

http://www.silverhillsbakery.ca/

Rhonda

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Guest guest

On 6/16/06, crayfishfeed <crayfishfeed@...> wrote:

> In NT, we all know that it is important to soak grains. If you are

> getting the " healthier " bread like the Food for Life bread, and if

> it's not sprouted should one assume that you are getting the mineral

> blocking phytic acids?

If it isn't long-rise sourdough and it isn't sprouted, it's got all

the phytates.

I wouldn't be so sure about a sourdough unless you knew it was

fermented for 24 hours or so. I doubt a sourdough that is fermented

for a couple hours has that much of the phytate broken down.

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

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Guest guest

> > In NT, we all know that it is important to soak grains. If you are

> > getting the " healthier " bread like the Food for Life bread, and if

> > it's not sprouted should one assume that you are getting the mineral

> > blocking phytic acids?

>

> If it isn't long-rise sourdough and it isn't sprouted, it's got all

> the phytates.

>

> I wouldn't be so sure about a sourdough unless you knew it was

> fermented for 24 hours or so. I doubt a sourdough that is fermented

> for a couple hours has that much of the phytate broken down.

>

> Chris

>

I thought when soaking grains, 7 hrs was supposed to be the magic

number in order to neutralize the phytates? Is it different for

sourdoughs, etc? French Meadow Bakery leavens their bread for 6-8 hrs.

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On 6/17/06, Alessandra <superunpop@...> wrote:

> I thought when soaking grains, 7 hrs was supposed to be the magic

> number in order to neutralize the phytates? Is it different for

> sourdoughs, etc? French Meadow Bakery leavens their bread for 6-8 hrs.

There's no magic number. You soak for a short time, you eliminate

less, for a long time, more. The usual methods only reduce the

phytate, rather than eliminate it. Presumably longer

soaking/fermenting times accomplishes more. Most of the abstracts I

found in a quick poke around did not mention soaking times in the

abstract, but none of them found complete elimination of phytates.

Here's an example.

J Agric Food Chem. 2001 Feb;49(2):692-8. Related Articles, Links

Assessment of home-based processing methods to reduce the phytate

content and phytate/zinc molar ratio of white maize (Zea mays).

Hotz C, Gibson RS.

Department of Human Nutrition, P.O. Box 56, University of Otago,

Dunedin, New Zealand. chotz@...

Various methods of processing maize suitable for household use in

rural Malawi, Central Africa, were investigated for their ability to

reduce its phytate content and phytate/zinc molar ratio. These methods

included fermentation, germination, and soaking. Penta- and

hexainositol phosphates were measured by HPLC, and zinc was measured

by atomic absorption spectrophotometry. Natural lactic fermentation of

maize flour slurries resulted in 88% phytate retention compared to

unprocessed, unrefined maize flour porridges, whereas lower phytate

retention was observed when a starter culture (61%) or germinated

flour (71%) was also used. Fermentation of cooked maize flour

porridges with germinated flour added resulted in 54-85% retention of

phytate compared to controls. Soaking maize flour or pounded maize and

decanting excess water resulted in 43 and 49% retention of phytate,

respectively. The latter soaking procedures were simple and effective

and were suitable for household use in rural Malawian communities.

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

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Guest guest

Soaking also depends on the grain. You soak millet and rice for 7 hours. You

soak spelt and kamut for 12 hours.

Christy

On 6/17/06, Alessandra <superunpop@...> wrote:

> I thought when soaking grains, 7 hrs was supposed to be the magic

> number in order to neutralize the phytates? Is it different for

> sourdoughs, etc? French Meadow Bakery leavens their bread for 6-8 hrs.

There's no magic number. You soak for a short time, you eliminate

less, for a long time, more. The usual methods only reduce the

phytate, rather than eliminate it. Presumably longer

soaking/fermenting times accomplishes more. Most of the abstracts I

found in a quick poke around did not mention soaking times in the

abstract, but none of them found complete elimination of phytates.

Here's an example.

J Agric Food Chem. 2001 Feb;49(2):692-8. Related Articles, Links

Assessment of home-based processing methods to reduce the phytate

content and phytate/zinc molar ratio of white maize (Zea mays).

Hotz C, Gibson RS.

Department of Human Nutrition, P.O. Box 56, University of Otago,

Dunedin, New Zealand. chotz@...

Various methods of processing maize suitable for household use in

rural Malawi, Central Africa, were investigated for their ability to

reduce its phytate content and phytate/zinc molar ratio. These methods

included fermentation, germination, and soaking. Penta- and

hexainositol phosphates were measured by HPLC, and zinc was measured

by atomic absorption spectrophotometry. Natural lactic fermentation of

maize flour slurries resulted in 88% phytate retention compared to

unprocessed, unrefined maize flour porridges, whereas lower phytate

retention was observed when a starter culture (61%) or germinated

flour (71%) was also used. Fermentation of cooked maize flour

porridges with germinated flour added resulted in 54-85% retention of

phytate compared to controls. Soaking maize flour or pounded maize and

decanting excess water resulted in 43 and 49% retention of phytate,

respectively. The latter soaking procedures were simple and effective

and were suitable for household use in rural Malawian communities.

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

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  • 4 weeks later...
Guest guest

>

> Hi Bee,

>

> I have no more die off symptoms and feeling more concentrated and

> energetic. Am I ready for probiotic?

==>Sounds like you can start on probiotics .

>

> Thanks for your reply. I am skipping the icecream until I am heal.

> Is there any substitute for bread? If we must eat bread, which

type is acceptable?

==>Properly prepared grains, which are soaked properly, or sprouted

or sour dough prepared, which are non-gluten and are not mycotoxic

(fungal poisons), i.e. buckwheat, millet, quinoa, amaranth, and

brown rice.

>

> I just bought 1gal Coconut oil UNREFINED organic from Mountain

rose herbs for $28. blue ice code liver oil 96 doses for $22.90 +

$10 shipping. you recommend them ? Please let me know if you can

find better deals.

==>Those are great prices.

Bee

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