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I'm not sure how much direct practice work Neff has. She seems a bit detached, very "Santa Fe" if you

will excuse the stereotype.One of weirder statements (as in "what doesn't belong here?") that pops out is the choice to include detailing of how to best mitigate the effects of alcohol alongside other self-care ideas. I can't put my finger on, but on both a process and content level, coupling this glass of red wine with an "oh so compassionate" way to unwind after a long day seems weird.Most of my concern I think has to do with the emphasis on the whole story line about need to relax as a goal. I'm not sure how that jives with a self-compassionate embrace.Part of it has to do with the suggestion itself. Confusing messages, speaking out of both ends it

seems.terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 2:21 PM Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

I'm not Terry but the book is simply called "Self Compassion". I recommend it as well.Check the books website:http://www.self-compassion.org/

Hi TerryWhat's the title of this book?

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This commenting of mine feels a bit heavy and oh so not compassionate and some of it is unnecessary. I think some of what pushed my buttons is my own personal experience with red wine. To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 5:47 PM Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

I'm not sure how much direct practice work Neff has. She seems a bit detached, very "Santa Fe" if you

will excuse the stereotype.One of weirder statements (as in "what doesn't belong here?") that pops out is the choice to include detailing of how to best mitigate the effects of alcohol alongside other self-care ideas. I can't put my finger on, but on both a process and content level, coupling this glass of red wine with an "oh so compassionate" way to unwind after a long day seems weird.Most of my concern I think has to do with the emphasis on the whole story line about need to relax as a goal. I'm not sure how that jives with a self-compassionate embrace.Part of it has to do with the suggestion itself. Confusing messages, speaking out of both ends it

seems.terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 2:21 PM Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

I'm not Terry but the book is simply called "Self Compassion". I recommend it as well.Check the books website:http://www.self-compassion.org/

Hi TerryWhat's the title of this book?

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Where's little Theresa? The unclever, nonintellectual little girl?Are you kicking her to the sidewalk? Is she crying?Does she deserve this? Does she need help?Hugs,Detlef>> This commenting of mine feels a bit heavy and oh so not compassionate and some of it is unnecessary.> > > I think some of what pushed my buttons is my own personal experience with red wine.> > ________________________________> To: "ACT_for_the_Public " ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 5:47 PM> Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique> > >  > I'm not sure how much direct > practice work Neff has. She seems a bit detached, very "Santa Fe" if you will excuse the stereotype.> > One of weirder statements (as in "what doesn't belong here?") that pops out is the choice to include detailing of how to best mitigate the effects of alcohol alongside other self-care ideas.I can't put my finger on, but on both a process and content level, coupling this glass of red wine with an "oh so compassionate" way to unwind after a long day seems weird.> > > Most of my concern I think has to do with the emphasis on the whole story line about need to relax as a goal. I'm not sure how that jives with a self-compassionate embrace.> > Part of it has to do with the suggestion itself. > > Confusing messages, speaking out of both ends it seems.> > > terry> > > ________________________________> To: ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 2:21 PM> Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique> > >  > I'm not Terry but the book is simply called "Self Compassion". I recommend it as well.> > Check the books website:> > http://www.self-compassion.org/ > > Hi Terry> >> >> >What's the title of this book?> >> >>

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Where's little Detlef? The clever, intellectual little boy?Are you kicking him to the sidewalk? Is he crying?Does he deserve this? Does he need help?Hugs,Helena

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Hi Detlef and Helena,What in the world are you two talking about here? Care to clue me in?Thanks,terry======================================================================Where's little Detlef? The clever, intellectual little boy?Are you kicking him to the sidewalk? Is he crying?Does he deserve this? Does he need help?Hugs,Helena To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 12:17 PM Subject: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Where's little Theresa? The unclever, nonintellectual little girl?Are you kicking her to the sidewalk? Is she crying?Does she deserve this? Does she need help?Hugs,Detlef>> This commenting of mine feels a bit heavy and oh so not compassionate and some of it is unnecessary.> > > I think some of what pushed my buttons is my own personal experience with red wine.> > ________________________________> To: "ACT_for_the_Public " ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 5:47 PM> Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique> > > Â

> I'm not sure how much direct > practice work Neff has. She seems a bit detached, very "Santa Fe" if you will excuse the stereotype.> > One of weirder statements (as in "what doesn't belong here?") that pops out is the choice to include detailing of how to best mitigate the effects of alcohol alongside other self-care ideas.I can't put my finger on, but on both a process and content level, coupling this glass of red wine with an "oh so compassionate" way to unwind after a long day seems weird.> > > Most of my concern I think has to do with the emphasis on the whole story line about need to relax as a goal. I'm not sure how that jives with a self-compassionate embrace.> > Part of it has to do with the suggestion itself. > > Confusing messages, speaking out of both ends it seems.> > > terry> > >

________________________________> To: ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 2:21 PM> Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique> > > Â > I'm not Terry but the book is simply called "Self Compassion". I recommend it as well.> > Check the books website:> > http://www.self-compassion.org/ > > Hi Terry> >> >> >What's the title of this book?> >> >>

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I can't speak for Detlef. I think he gets my post; if not, he can ask me.To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 6:27:15 PMSubject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Hi Detlef and Helena,What in the world are you two talking about here? Care to clue me in?Thanks,terry

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Oh, give me a break.I was just asking for clarification. To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2012 7:03 AM Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

I can't speak for Detlef. I think he gets my post; if not, he can ask me.To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 6:27:15 PMSubject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Hi Detlef and Helena,What in the world are you two talking about here? Care to clue me in?Thanks,terry

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It goes the other way too, we Brits love the American accent. I do

agrre, though, that upper class and micdle class English accents are

wonderful. I'm a London cockny which sounds terrible, sadly. I would

have loved a middle class accent. The ish accent is dead gorgeous

and so is the French accent, and I especially like it when they speak in

English.

Kv

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> This commenting of mine feels a bit heavy and oh so not compassionate

and some of it is unnecessary.

>

>

>

> I think some of what pushed my buttons is my own personal experience

with red wine.

>

>

>

>

> From: Theresa Linder < theresa.linder@... >

> To: " ACT_for_the_Public " <

ACT_for_the_Public >

> Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 5:47 PM

>

> Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm

embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> I'm not sure how much direct practice work Neff has. She seems a bit

detached, very " Santa Fe " if you will excuse the stereotype.

>

>

> One of weirder statements (as in " what doesn't belong here? " ) that

pops out is the choice to include detailing of how to best mitigate the

effects of alcohol alongside other self-care ideas. I can't put my

finger on, but on both a process and content level, coupling this glass

of red wine with an " oh so compassionate " way to unwind after a long day

seems weird.

>

>

>

> Most of my concern I think has to do with the emphasis on the whole

story line about need to relax as a goal. I'm not sure how that jives

with a self-compassionate embrace.

>

>

> Part of it has to do with the suggestion itself.

>

>

> Confusing messages, speaking out of both ends it seems.

>

>

>

> terry

>

>

>

>

> From: Jespersen < jespersen.thomas@... >

> To: ACT_for_the_Public

> Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 2:21 PM

> Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm

embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

>

>

>

>

>

> I'm not Terry but the book is simply called " Self Compassion " . I

recommend it as well.

>

>

> Check the books website:

>

>

> http://www.self-compassion.org/

>

>

> <blockquote>

>

>

>

>

>

> Hi Terry

>

>

> What's the title of this book?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> </blockquote>

>

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I think the cockney accent is adorable!To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2012 8:24:39 AMSubject: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

It goes the other way too, we Brits love the American accent. I do

agrre, though, that upper class and micdle class English accents are

wonderful. I'm a London cockny which sounds terrible, sadly. I would

have loved a middle class accent. The ish accent is dead gorgeous

and so is the French accent, and I especially like it when they speak in

English.

Kv

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> This commenting of mine feels a bit heavy and oh so not compassionate

and some of it is unnecessary.

>

>

>

> I think some of what pushed my buttons is my own personal experience

with red wine.

>

>

>

>

> From: Theresa Linder < theresa.linder@... >

> To: " ACT_for_the_Public " <

ACT_for_the_Public >

> Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 5:47 PM

>

> Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm

embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> I'm not sure how much direct practice work Neff has. She seems a bit

detached, very "Santa Fe" if you will excuse the stereotype.

>

>

> One of weirder statements (as in "what doesn't belong here?") that

pops out is the choice to include detailing of how to best mitigate the

effects of alcohol alongside other self-care ideas. I can't put my

finger on, but on both a process and content level, coupling this glass

of red wine with an "oh so compassionate" way to unwind after a long day

seems weird.

>

>

>

> Most of my concern I think has to do with the emphasis on the whole

story line about need to relax as a goal. I'm not sure how that jives

with a self-compassionate embrace.

>

>

> Part of it has to do with the suggestion itself.

>

>

> Confusing messages, speaking out of both ends it seems.

>

>

>

> terry

>

>

>

>

> From: Jespersen < jespersen.thomas@... >

> To: ACT_for_the_Public

> Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 2:21 PM

> Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm

embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

>

>

>

>

>

> I'm not Terry but the book is simply called "Self Compassion". I

recommend it as well.

>

>

> Check the books website:

>

>

> http://www.self-compassion.org/

>

>

> <blockquote>

>

>

>

>

>

> Hi Terry

>

>

> What's the title of this book?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> </blockquote>

>

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Posted
Posted

Cor blimey, that's nice!

Kv

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > This commenting of mine feels a bit heavy and oh so not

compassionate

> and some of it is unnecessary.

> >

> >

> >

> > I think some of what pushed my buttons is my own personal experience

> with red wine.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > From: Theresa Linder < theresa.linder@ >

> > To: " ACT_for_the_Public " <

> ACT_for_the_Public >

> > Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 5:47 PM

> >

> > Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm

> embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I'm not sure how much direct practice work Neff has. She seems a bit

> detached, very " Santa Fe " if you will excuse the stereotype.

> >

> >

> > One of weirder statements (as in " what doesn't belong here? " ) that

> pops out is the choice to include detailing of how to best mitigate

the

> effects of alcohol alongside other self-care ideas. I can't put my

> finger on, but on both a process and content level, coupling this

glass

> of red wine with an " oh so compassionate " way to unwind after a long

day

> seems weird.

> >

> >

> >

> > Most of my concern I think has to do with the emphasis on the whole

> story line about need to relax as a goal. I'm not sure how that jives

> with a self-compassionate embrace.

> >

> >

> > Part of it has to do with the suggestion itself.

> >

> >

> > Confusing messages, speaking out of both ends it seems.

> >

> >

> >

> > terry

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > From: Jespersen < jespersen.thomas@ >

> > To: ACT_for_the_Public

> > Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 2:21 PM

> > Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm

> embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I'm not Terry but the book is simply called " Self Compassion " . I

> recommend it as well.

> >

> >

> > Check the books website:

> >

> >

> > http://www.self-compassion.org/

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Hi Terry

> >

> >

> > What's the title of this book?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

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Posted

Helena,

For me it's both. Being "realistic" includes a hope for something better in my book. What that "better" is is not for me to say. Of course we accept where we people are now. However: Acceptance doesn't mean I resign to it or like it or make excuses for it. ...AND.. I dream for them to keep moving toward more valued living, no matter how slow..Why wouldn't we do both? Isn't that what we're here for? More effective, flexible patterns of living?It's like what a good parent or good friend or even good therapist would do. They compassionately address the behavior but also don't label or over-diagnose or pigeon-hole by

fusing with self as content stuff. And, they do what they can to keep encouraging, holding a light to see that none of us have to persist in workable patterns or cartoon characters built on some fixated image.It's also what I expect my loved ones to do for me. And ultimately what I hope to learn to do for myself. To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2012 3:21 AM Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

I for one expect the best from all of us, regardless of history. Would it not be more realistic to expect only what people are able to give, to be, in any given moment? To be accepting of that, whether we like it or not? I learn most when people share who they really are, not who they want to be or should be.To: "ACT for the

Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2012 1:42:55 AMSubject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

There is no way I could have known you were thinking all this, so I'm glad you piped up, although it felt a bit like pulling teeth to just have you do so!So far as Detlef...it feels weird talking about him like he's not here, but I do think you're awfully protective of him. You make lots of excuses for him. Yes, his post was down-putting and he sure took time to carefully insert negative descriptives. Drunk or not, that's just rude.I know I've written hurtful stuff in the past and hopefully less so recently. I can have a dangerous tongue when I'm intoxicated or

just plain hurting. I get where you're coming from but don't know how helpful it is to recommend we just dismiss what he says as the "list drunk" so to speak. That we should just expect this...kind of paints him into a corner and also creates a story that may be too easy to just glob onto and continue. We're here to help each other grow and change for the better and I for one expect the best from all of us, regardless of history. I'd certainly want others to keep holding out hope for me to turn it around...for the most part folks here do and it's one of the things that continues to move me about people in the ACT community. terry To: ACT for the Public

<ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2012 12:59

PM Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

OK, I'll respond more thoroughly. I

did not understand Detlef's post to you and thought it was down-putting; however, I thought he meant it to be supportive (perhaps).

I thought to myself that he had no reason to downput anyone when his own life is a mess (as I gathered from his posts). So I thought I would turn his message around (which I did not understand) to put the focus on him, where I thought it belonged. Please remember that Detlef is most likely drunk when he posts (by his own admission), so you can take anything he says with that blurred grain of thought, when he thinks

he is being most clear (as in Hitchens wannabe). Jeez,

I sure said "I thought" a lot here. That could be a clue for me! "I thought and thought until the thought I thought wasn't the thought I thought I thought" LOL : )To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2012 3:44:06 PMSubject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

I answered your question as it pertained to me. What the f do you need a break from? To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2012 3:32:27 PMSubject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Oh, give me a break.I was just asking for clarification. To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2012 7:03 AM Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

I can't speak for Detlef. I think he gets my post; if not, he can ask me.To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 6:27:15 PMSubject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Hi Detlef and Helena,What in the world are you two talking about here? Care to clue me in?

ter To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 3:27 PM Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Hi Detlef and Helena,What in the world are you two talking about here? Care to clue me in?Thanks,terry======================================================================Where's little Detlef? The clever, intellectual little boy?Are you kicking him to the sidewalk? Is he crying?Does he deserve this? Does he need help?Hugs,Helena To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 12:17 PM Subject: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Where's little Theresa? The unclever, nonintellectual little girl?Are you kicking her to the sidewalk? Is she crying?Does she deserve this? Does she need help?Hugs,Detlef>> This commenting of mine feels a bit heavy and oh so not compassionate and some of it is unnecessary.> > > I think some of what pushed my buttons is my own personal experience with red wine.> > ________________________________> To: "ACT_for_the_Public " ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 5:47 PM> Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique> > > Â

> I'm not sure how much direct > practice work Neff has. She seems a bit detached, very "Santa Fe" if you will excuse the stereotype.> > One of weirder statements (as in "what doesn't belong here?") that pops out is the choice to include detailing of how to best mitigate the effects of alcohol alongside other self-care ideas.I can't put my finger on, but on both a process and content level, coupling this glass of red wine with an "oh so compassionate" way to unwind after a long day seems weird.> > > Most of my concern I think has to do with the emphasis on the whole story line about need to relax as a goal. I'm not sure how that jives with a self-compassionate embrace.> > Part of it has to do with the suggestion itself. > > Confusing messages, speaking out of both ends it seems.> > > terry> > >

________________________________> To: ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 2:21 PM> Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique> > > Â > I'm not Terry but the book is simply called "Self Compassion". I recommend it as well.> > Check the books website:> > http://www.self-compassion.org/ > > Hi Terry> >> >> >What's the title of this book?> >> >>

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I didn't want you to clarify where Detlef is at. I have no idea what his intent was either. I just wanted to know where you were coming from with the sudden parroting back (which is something you have done with me too in the past) which I felt contributed to the obtuse posting. And then with the additional commenting that he gets it, so bugger off it also contributed to the cryptic confusion.BTW, I didn't say I don't believe Detlef is kind-hearted. I said his actions were hurtful to me. And you seemed overly concerned with him and a lot less concerned about how this whole thing felt for me. If you wanted to remain more impartial, why not just say something more clear and direct "Hey Detlef, maybe you didn't mean it, but that sounds off-putting what you said

to Terry". That way you'd be putting the focus back on him (as you said you wanted) and you'd signal to me and to others reading along--and to Detlef--you see how his words may have come off as hurtful". To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2012 3:18 AM Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Terry, I didn't want to get drawn into a clarification discussion because I did not want to interpret Detlef's words, which may not be at all what you or I guessed they were - downputting. To respond to you sort of forced me to do that, which is why I was reluctant. I cannot state what his intention was, but my initial reaction was negative, I'll admit. On second thought, when he said "unclever, unintellectual" he may have been positing what he thought you were thinking of yourself as a little girl and was encouraging you to embrace and comfort her. I believe that Detlef is a kindhearted person; however his remarks were a bit obtuse to me. I thought if I echoed them back, he might respond with more clarity. I do not want to be judgmental about him or you or anyone. If it

seems I make 'lots of excuses' for him, well I don't get that. You previously said that about me (I was protective) regarding someone else here. I try to always make allowances for everyone, knowing how imperfect I am and how I come across negatively when I don't mean to at times. (And email is a pitifully inadequate form of communication.) If you call that protective, so be it. The only person I don't make excuses for is myself.Detlef, sorry to talk behind your back, and I apologize if I misinterpreted your remarks. It is difficult to discern another's intentions in a posted message. If you want to clarify, good. If not, that's OK too (making allowances, as usual ........)HelenaTo: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2012 1:42:55 AMSubject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

There is no way I could have known you were thinking all this, so I'm glad you piped up, although it felt a bit like pulling teeth to just have you do so!So far as Detlef...it feels weird talking about him like he's not here, but I do think you're awfully protective of him. You make lots of excuses for him. Yes, his post was down-putting and he sure took time to carefully insert negative descriptives. Drunk or not, that's just rude.I know I've written hurtful stuff in the past and hopefully less so recently. I can have a dangerous tongue when I'm intoxicated or

just plain hurting. I get where you're coming from but don't know how helpful it is to recommend we just dismiss what he says as the "list drunk" so to speak. That we should just expect this...kind of paints him into a corner and also creates a story that may be too easy to just glob onto and continue. We're here to help each other grow and change for the better and I for one expect the best from all of us, regardless of history. I'd certainly want others to keep holding out hope for me to turn it around...for the most part folks here do and it's one of the things that continues to move me about people in the ACT community. terry To: ACT for the Public

<ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2012 12:59

PM Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

OK, I'll respond more thoroughly. I

did not understand Detlef's post to you and thought it was down-putting; however, I thought he meant it to be supportive (perhaps).

I thought to myself that he had no reason to downput anyone when his own life is a mess (as I gathered from his posts). So I thought I would turn his message around (which I did not understand) to put the focus on him, where I thought it belonged. Please remember that Detlef is most likely drunk when he posts (by his own admission), so you can take anything he says with that blurred grain of thought, when he thinks

he is being most clear (as in Hitchens wannabe). Jeez,

I sure said "I thought" a lot here. That could be a clue for me! "I thought and thought until the thought I thought wasn't the thought I thought I thought" LOL : )To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2012 3:44:06 PMSubject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

I answered your question as it pertained to me. What the f do you need a break from? To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2012 3:32:27 PMSubject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Oh, give me a break.I was just asking for clarification. To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2012 7:03 AM Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

I can't speak for Detlef. I think he gets my post; if not, he can ask me.To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 6:27:15 PMSubject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Hi Detlef and Helena,What in the world are you two talking about here? Care to clue me in?

ter To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 3:27 PM Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Hi Detlef and Helena,What in the world are you two talking about here? Care to clue me in?Thanks,terry======================================================================Where's little Detlef? The clever, intellectual little boy?Are you kicking him to the sidewalk? Is he crying?Does he deserve this? Does he need help?Hugs,Helena To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 12:17 PM Subject: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Where's little Theresa? The unclever, nonintellectual little girl?Are you kicking her to the sidewalk? Is she crying?Does she deserve this? Does she need help?Hugs,Detlef>> This commenting of mine feels a bit heavy and oh so not compassionate and some of it is unnecessary.> > > I think some of what pushed my buttons is my own personal experience with red wine.> > ________________________________> To: "ACT_for_the_Public " ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 5:47 PM> Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique> > > Â

> I'm not sure how much direct > practice work Neff has. She seems a bit detached, very "Santa Fe" if you will excuse the stereotype.> > One of weirder statements (as in "what doesn't belong here?") that pops out is the choice to include detailing of how to best mitigate the effects of alcohol alongside other self-care ideas.I can't put my finger on, but on both a process and content level, coupling this glass of red wine with an "oh so compassionate" way to unwind after a long day seems weird.> > > Most of my concern I think has to do with the emphasis on the whole story line about need to relax as a goal. I'm not sure how that jives with a self-compassionate embrace.> > Part of it has to do with the suggestion itself. > > Confusing messages, speaking out of both ends it seems.> > > terry> > >

________________________________> To: ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 2:21 PM> Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique> > > Â > I'm not Terry but the book is simply called "Self Compassion". I recommend it as well.> > Check the books website:> > http://www.self-compassion.org/ > > Hi Terry> >> >> >What's the title of this book?> >> >>

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Well, this is interesting. Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but sure sounds a bit like you guys are saying that because you're so lousy at something, it's therefore not a value but only a skill.That's not where I look to see if something is valued for me.

How do you even sense self-compassion is something you want to learn if it's not important, of meaning for you?If it doesn't matter, why bother? I tend to see self-compassion as both a value (as in a quality of being with myself that I care deeply about, hold dear) AND I see it as something that may be unfamiliar for meANDit's certainly a posture I can become more adept at, more skilled at calling forth by practicing different

exercises. Like acceptance of self, it's a process. That's how I see it, anyway.terry To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2012 3:38 AM Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

, I had to giggle at your description of yourself as a naturally reserved Brit! I dated one a long time ago for a couple years. You are so right about the "reserved" part, especially when it came to expressing emotions. Yet, he was very sexy! We American girls seem to drool over the British accent.I like your description of compassion as a skill rather than a value. I think that is so true, especially when it comes to self-compassion, which is hardest for me. I am easily and naturally compassionate about others (which means not wanting to see them suffer or in pain and trying to help when I can). As for me, I tend to kick

myself for being "less than" I should be -

that should word is a killer. HelenaTo: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2012 3:06:21 AMSubject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

For me, self-compassion isn't a value. It's a skill. It's a skill I am desperately poor at, given how very easily I buy into the acerbic self-judgements of my mind. I think most people on this list find it hard too. But I can see how hard to you find it to swallow. I have found it very hard to overcome my naturally reserved (I am British, after all!) personality and start to feel that it's not wrong or indulgent to give myself gentle encouragement and understanding from time to time. To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, 22 July 2012, 0:57 Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Terry,I really liked your comments. I laughed a little reading your "Santa Fe" comment.A lot of the "compassionate" comments on this list are kind of creepy to me. Your comments were a breath of fresh air.

People have different likes and taste and "values". So don't worry if you don't conform to this mushy compassion. It's not one of my values and I think many on this list over rates it.

This commenting of mine feels a bit heavy and oh so not compassionate and some of it is unnecessary.

I think some of what pushed my buttons is my own personal experience with red wine.

To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public >

Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 5:47 PM Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

I'm not sure how much direct practice work Neff has. She seems a bit detached, very "Santa Fe" if you

will excuse the stereotype.One of weirder statements (as in "what doesn't belong here?") that pops out is the choice to include detailing of how to best mitigate the effects of alcohol alongside other self-care ideas. I can't put my finger on, but on both a process and content level, coupling this glass of red wine with an "oh so compassionate" way to unwind after a long day seems weird.

Most of my concern I think has to do with the emphasis on the whole story line about need to relax as a goal. I'm not sure how that jives with a self-compassionate embrace.

Part of it has to do with the suggestion itself. Confusing messages, speaking out of both ends it

seems.terry

To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 2:21 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

I'm not Terry but the book is simply called "Self Compassion". I recommend it as well.Check the books website:http://www.self-compassion.org/

Hi TerryWhat's the title of this book?-------------------------------- To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 12:32 PM Subject: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

I'm

reading Neff's book on self-compassion and really like it so far. Her exercises are very helpful and the practice feels like a warm loving hug and a slow long deep breath. Really see it as a

meta-value and a strong form of acceptance. Just shining a more specific light on this piece. It really resonates.The posture of self-compassion is pivotal for me as I'm in the high shame and self-critical category. Anyone else using this stuff?BTW,

I do see a trap...i do see some tendency in readings on compassion (and

in my own mind) to turn this all into yet another cure-all, self-help move/technique, but so far that is not a problem.terry

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I think of learning to be compassionate with myself as acquiring

both an attitude ( " compassion is okay " ) and a skill ( " let's try it right

now even though it scares the crap out of me with this person or

this situation " ).

But compassion is not the first skill I have had to learn. Not at all.

No, the first skill I had to learn, which I am still practicing, is

to quiet down and listen to a murmur as familiar as the beat of

my heart - the soft, constant, and amazingly harsh voice of my

mind. A voice that has judged myself and others so cruelly for

so long that until very recently I didn't even notice.

This voice masquerades as wisdom, or reason, or adulthood,

or moral goodness, or anger, or realistic skepticism. And many

other guises too. Like the devil it can wear any clothing, sneak

inside any church.

Yet unlike the devil it is not evil. It was a surprise to learn I

can be compassionate to this voice. I can stroke it and talk to it

like an ailing cat. It is part of my experience, so why not be kind

to it? Besides it is not just my voice it speaks in, but the voice of

my father, and of his father too. And on and on. All that

suffering, all those good intentions, all those fears.

The idea of compassion can be very uncomfortable to someone who has

been socialized to be harsh. That was certainly my experience. Lots

of discomfort. Ick. Yuck. Mushy. Pick it apart. Push it away.

I am only beginning to practice compassion. Now and then it works.

Today it worked. I had a conversation with a friend who is

undergoing dialysis and has not yet been able to find a kidney

transplant. He is older than me, a strong personality, someone I

often feel awkward around because (my mind says) he does so much

more good in the world than I do. Today we connected. I dropped my

self-imposed barrier of " I'm not as good as him " and he and I talked

with enjoyment of nothing special - how beautiful the baroque music

was on the radio, how terrible the tragedy was in Colorado.

Even as I type this my mind is saying it's all silly nonsense. Giving

me the business. Putting the shaft to me for my own good.

Yes yes, I imagine myself saying. There there. It's okay.

- R.

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Hi Terry. That wasn't what I meant to say. I find that self-compassion sits uneasily with me. Instinctively it feels self-indulgent. It feels like I am making excuses for myself. I certainly wouldn't place it in my values category, not because I am bad at it, but because it would never be something I would want to define me. So why do I want to learn it if it's not a value? Because it might help me! Same with all ACT skills. (I am only speaking for myself here, naturally). x To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, 22 July 2012, 23:42 Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Well, this is interesting. Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but sure sounds a bit like you guys are saying that because you're so lousy at something, it's therefore not a value but only a skill.That's not where I look to see if something is valued for me.

How do you even sense self-compassion is something you want to learn if it's not important, of meaning for you?If it doesn't matter, why bother? I tend to see self-compassion as both a value (as in a quality of being with myself that I care deeply about, hold dear) AND I see it as something that may be unfamiliar for meANDit's certainly a posture I can become more adept at, more skilled at calling forth by practicing different

exercises. Like acceptance of self, it's a process. That's how I see it, anyway.terry To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2012 3:38 AM Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

, I had to giggle at your description of yourself as a naturally reserved Brit! I dated one a long time ago for a couple years. You are so right about the "reserved" part, especially when it came to expressing emotions. Yet, he was very sexy! We American girls seem to drool over the British accent.I like your description of compassion as a skill rather than a value. I think that is so true, especially when it comes to self-compassion, which is hardest for me. I am easily and naturally compassionate about others (which means not wanting to see them suffer or in pain and trying to help when I can). As for me, I tend

to kick

myself for being "less than" I should be -

that should word is a killer. HelenaTo: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2012 3:06:21 AMSubject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

For me, self-compassion isn't a value. It's a skill. It's a skill I am desperately poor at, given how very easily I buy into the acerbic self-judgements of my mind. I think most people on this list find it hard too. But I can see how hard to you find it to swallow. I have found it very hard to overcome my naturally reserved (I am British, after all!) personality and start to feel that it's not wrong or indulgent to give myself gentle encouragement and understanding from time to time. To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, 22 July 2012, 0:57 Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Terry,I really liked your comments. I laughed a little reading your "Santa Fe" comment.A lot of the "compassionate" comments on this list are kind of creepy to me. Your comments were a breath of fresh air.

People have different likes and taste and "values". So don't worry if you don't conform to this mushy compassion. It's not one of my values and I think many on this list over rates it.

This commenting of mine feels a bit heavy and oh so not compassionate and some of it is unnecessary.

I think some of what pushed my buttons is my own personal experience with red wine.

To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public >

Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 5:47 PM Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

I'm not sure how much direct practice work Neff has. She seems a bit detached, very "Santa Fe" if you

will excuse the stereotype.One of weirder statements (as in "what doesn't belong here?") that pops out is the choice to include detailing of how to best mitigate the effects of alcohol alongside other self-care ideas. I can't put my finger on, but on both a process and content level, coupling this glass of red wine with an "oh so compassionate" way to unwind after a long day seems weird.

Most of my concern I think has to do with the emphasis on the whole story line about need to relax as a goal. I'm not sure how that jives with a self-compassionate embrace.

Part of it has to do with the suggestion itself. Confusing messages, speaking out of both ends it

seems.terry

To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 2:21 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

I'm not Terry but the book is simply called "Self Compassion". I recommend it as well.Check the books website:http://www.self-compassion.org/

Hi TerryWhat's the title of this book?-------------------------------- To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 12:32 PM Subject: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

I'm

reading Neff's book on self-compassion and really like it so far. Her exercises are very helpful and the practice feels like a warm loving hug and a slow long deep breath. Really see it as a

meta-value and a strong form of acceptance. Just shining a more specific light on this piece. It really resonates.The posture of self-compassion is pivotal for me as I'm in the high shame and self-critical category. Anyone else using this stuff?BTW,

I do see a trap...i do see some tendency in readings on compassion (and

in my own mind) to turn this all into yet another cure-all, self-help move/technique, but so far that is not a problem.terry

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>

> I find that self-compassion sits uneasily with me. Instinctively

> it feels self-indulgent. It feels like I am making excuses for

> myself. . . . So why do I want to learn it if it's not a value?

> Because it might help me! Same with all ACT skills

, see my other post in this thread. Self compassion sat uneasily

with me too. It felt self-indulgent, like I was making excuses for

myself. In short, I was doing what you seem to be doing - buying my

mind's statements that I am guilty, need to be punished or scolded or

treated harshly. That is what all this talk of " making excuses " boils

down to. Your mind says you are doing a bad job, should be doing better,

and until you are doing better, all this namby-pamby kindness &

compassion stuff will just make you soft. And besides you don't deserve

it.

How well does this work for you? Really, really well, right? I mean,

you're pretty much perfect now, right? No problems? Ship-shape?

Not?

Oh, but never mind whether it works - you still don't DESERVE

self-kindess or self-compassion, right?

Says who?

Who is that again?

Oh, that little voice inside your head?

The same voice you believe in absolutely as being " you " ?

Where'd it come from? Is it an " instinct " ? Is it the universe talking

about what is morally right?

Ah, you're helpless to control it? Is that it?

Put the normal functioning of the socialized human mind up on a throne

as if it were a god speaking divine truth, before which you have to bow

and grovel, and you will make yourself miserable for sure. And you will

seek and seek and seek and never find a way out of that misery.

No therapist or book can teach you " self-compassion " if you insist you

don't deserve self-compassion. It is like trying to smile at a child at

the same time as you kick the child. All the instructions about moving

your face muscles a certain way so it looks like you are smiling won't

help if you are kicking the child.

But there is something you can do for yourself, a weird scary thing your

mind will warn you no no no no stay away from.

You can start listening.

Noticing what the voice says and where it comes

from and what else it is quietly whispering to you.

Notice what its demands are. If you are like me they go like this:

Be perfect. Know the future. Be other than what you are now. Don't be

flawed. Be god-like in your ability to solve the problems you face.

Don't fail. Don't have failed in the past. Don't fail in the future.

Don't screw up.

All just whispers . . . so quiet they slip in your ear and you buy them.

Well, if you know any perfect human beings who don't screw up and who

are therefore have finally earned self-compassion and are deserving of

it, please let me know.

Self-compassion is not a skill that can be learned while still believing

what your mind tells you, that you are guilty and flawed and need to be

scolded and punished so you will do better.

It is different than that.

It is not something that can be weighed on a scale and justified.

Just like your value as a human being is not something that can be

weighed on a scale and justified.

As you start defending your status quo against everything I have written

.. . . ask yourself what road you are traveling upon. The whip wears a

groove in our lives and the groove gets easier and easier to travel in

the deeper it deeper it gets. What you are traveling on now, however

desperate and horrible it may seem, is the same path I have traveled on,

and often stumble back into. It is the easiest path I know. Old stone,

deeply grooved, past whippings.

If your hand drops that whip, no other hand will pick it up. If you pick

up your feet and step out of the groove, no one is waiting to push you

back into it.

Your hand. Your feet.

I don't say this with any sense of superiority whatsoever. None. None.

You and I are brothers in this way.

- R.

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Hi Randy I'm not sure that I change whether something feels comfortable or not, simply by the act of rational thinking. I already know that my feeling unworthy and undeserving doesn't stack up to logic, but it doesn't stop me feeling it. 'Knowing' something doesn't mean that your feelings follow automatically. Ask any arachnophobe whether they are helped by the cast-iron knowledge that the spider edging towards them is scientifically proven to be harmless. I hope I don't have to feel deserving of self-compassion before it can be of any use. I hope that actions of self-compassion come first, and

feelings of self-compassion will come later (to borrow from Dr 's phraseology). But you may well be right, which is why it is so difficult for me. Thanks for your excellent and thought-provoking posts x To:

ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, 23 July 2012, 12:24 Subject: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

>

> I find that self-compassion sits uneasily with me. Instinctively

> it feels self-indulgent. It feels like I am making excuses for

> myself. . . . So why do I want to learn it if it's not a value?

> Because it might help me! Same with all ACT skills

, see my other post in this thread. Self compassion sat uneasily

with me too. It felt self-indulgent, like I was making excuses for

myself. In short, I was doing what you seem to be doing - buying my

mind's statements that I am guilty, need to be punished or scolded or

treated harshly. That is what all this talk of "making excuses" boils

down to. Your mind says you are doing a bad job, should be doing better,

and until you are doing better, all this namby-pamby kindness &

compassion stuff will just make you soft. And besides you don't deserve

it.

How well does this work for you? Really, really well, right? I mean,

you're pretty much perfect now, right? No problems? Ship-shape?

Not?

Oh, but never mind whether it works - you still don't DESERVE

self-kindess or self-compassion, right?

Says who?

Who is that again?

Oh, that little voice inside your head?

The same voice you believe in absolutely as being "you"?

Where'd it come from? Is it an "instinct"? Is it the universe talking

about what is morally right?

Ah, you're helpless to control it? Is that it?

Put the normal functioning of the socialized human mind up on a throne

as if it were a god speaking divine truth, before which you have to bow

and grovel, and you will make yourself miserable for sure. And you will

seek and seek and seek and never find a way out of that misery.

No therapist or book can teach you "self-compassion" if you insist you

don't deserve self-compassion. It is like trying to smile at a child at

the same time as you kick the child. All the instructions about moving

your face muscles a certain way so it looks like you are smiling won't

help if you are kicking the child.

But there is something you can do for yourself, a weird scary thing your

mind will warn you no no no no stay away from.

You can start listening.

Noticing what the voice says and where it comes

from and what else it is quietly whispering to you.

Notice what its demands are. If you are like me they go like this:

Be perfect. Know the future. Be other than what you are now. Don't be

flawed. Be god-like in your ability to solve the problems you face.

Don't fail. Don't have failed in the past. Don't fail in the future.

Don't screw up.

All just whispers . . . so quiet they slip in your ear and you buy them.

Well, if you know any perfect human beings who don't screw up and who

are therefore have finally earned self-compassion and are deserving of

it, please let me know.

Self-compassion is not a skill that can be learned while still believing

what your mind tells you, that you are guilty and flawed and need to be

scolded and punished so you will do better.

It is different than that.

It is not something that can be weighed on a scale and justified.

Just like your value as a human being is not something that can be

weighed on a scale and justified.

As you start defending your status quo against everything I have written

.. . . ask yourself what road you are traveling upon. The whip wears a

groove in our lives and the groove gets easier and easier to travel in

the deeper it deeper it gets. What you are traveling on now, however

desperate and horrible it may seem, is the same path I have traveled on,

and often stumble back into. It is the easiest path I know. Old stone,

deeply grooved, past whippings.

If your hand drops that whip, no other hand will pick it up. If you pick

up your feet and step out of the groove, no one is waiting to push you

back into it.

Your hand. Your feet.

I don't say this with any sense of superiority whatsoever. None. None.

You and I are brothers in this way.

- R.

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Bruce,

I'm not asking you to feel comfortable with self-compassion.

I'm not arguing out of logic.

I'm not saying you should stop feeling what you feel.

I'm not asking you to feel deserving of self compassion.

I'm not asking you to wait for anything.

None of what you write is in what I wrote.

You can argue & shake your head . . .

Or you can listen to the gaps between the words.

- R.

> >

> > I find that self-compassion sits uneasily with me. Instinctively

> > it feels self-indulgent. It feels like I am making excuses for

> > myself. . . . So why do I want to learn it if it's not a value?

> > Because it might help me! Same with all ACT skills

>

> , see my other post in this thread. Self compassion sat uneasily

> with me too. It felt self-indulgent, like I was making excuses for

> myself. In short, I was doing what you seem to be doing - buying my

> mind's statements that I am guilty, need to be punished or scolded or

> treated harshly. That is what all this talk of " making excuses " boils

> down to. Your mind says you are doing a bad job, should be doing better,

> and until you are doing better, all this namby-pamby kindness &

> compassion stuff will just make you soft. And besides you don't deserve

> it.

>

> How well does this work for you? Really, really well, right? I mean,

> you're pretty much perfect now, right? No problems? Ship-shape?

>

> Not?

>

> Oh, but never mind whether it works - you still don't DESERVE

> self-kindess or self-compassion, right?

>

> Says who?

>

> Who is that again?

>

> Oh, that little voice inside your head?

>

> The same voice you believe in absolutely as being " you " ?

>

> Where'd it come from? Is it an " instinct " ? Is it the universe talking

> about what is morally right?

>

> Ah, you're helpless to control it? Is that it?

>

> Put the normal functioning of the socialized human mind up on a throne

> as if it were a god speaking divine truth, before which you have to bow

> and grovel, and you will make yourself miserable for sure. And you will

> seek and seek and seek and never find a way out of that misery.

>

> No therapist or book can teach you " self-compassion " if you insist you

> don't deserve self-compassion. It is like trying to smile at a child at

> the same time as you kick the child. All the instructions about moving

> your face muscles a certain way so it looks like you are smiling won't

> help if you are kicking the child.

>

> But there is something you can do for yourself, a weird scary thing your

> mind will warn you no no no no stay away from.

>

> You can start listening.

>

> Noticing what the voice says and where it comes

> from and what else it is quietly whispering to you.

>

> Notice what its demands are. If you are like me they go like this:

>

> Be perfect. Know the future. Be other than what you are now. Don't be

> flawed. Be god-like in your ability to solve the problems you face.

> Don't fail. Don't have failed in the past. Don't fail in the future.

> Don't screw up.

>

> All just whispers . . . so quiet they slip in your ear and you buy them.

>

> Well, if you know any perfect human beings who don't screw up and who

> are therefore have finally earned self-compassion and are deserving of

> it, please let me know.

>

> Self-compassion is not a skill that can be learned while still believing

> what your mind tells you, that you are guilty and flawed and need to be

> scolded and punished so you will do better.

>

> It is different than that.

>

> It is not something that can be weighed on a scale and justified.

>

> Just like your value as a human being is not something that can be

> weighed on a scale and justified.

>

> As you start defending your status quo against everything I have written

> . . . ask yourself what road you are traveling upon. The whip wears a

> groove in our lives and the groove gets easier and easier to travel in

> the deeper it deeper it gets. What you are traveling on now, however

> desperate and horrible it may seem, is the same path I have traveled on,

> and often stumble back into. It is the easiest path I know. Old stone,

> deeply grooved, past whippings.

>

> If your hand drops that whip, no other hand will pick it up. If you pick

> up your feet and step out of the groove, no one is waiting to push you

> back into it.

>

> Your hand. Your feet.

>

> I don't say this with any sense of superiority whatsoever. None. None.

> You and I are brothers in this way.

>

> - R.

>

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There I go again with my /Bruce thing.

I did that a few times last year.

My apologies, . And my apologies, Bruce.

- R.

> > >

> > > I find that self-compassion sits uneasily with me. Instinctively

> > > it feels self-indulgent. It feels like I am making excuses for

> > > myself. . . . So why do I want to learn it if it's not a value?

> > > Because it might help me! Same with all ACT skills

> >

> > , see my other post in this thread. Self compassion sat uneasily

> > with me too. It felt self-indulgent, like I was making excuses for

> > myself. In short, I was doing what you seem to be doing - buying my

> > mind's statements that I am guilty, need to be punished or scolded or

> > treated harshly. That is what all this talk of " making excuses " boils

> > down to. Your mind says you are doing a bad job, should be doing better,

> > and until you are doing better, all this namby-pamby kindness &

> > compassion stuff will just make you soft. And besides you don't deserve

> > it.

> >

> > How well does this work for you? Really, really well, right? I mean,

> > you're pretty much perfect now, right? No problems? Ship-shape?

> >

> > Not?

> >

> > Oh, but never mind whether it works - you still don't DESERVE

> > self-kindess or self-compassion, right?

> >

> > Says who?

> >

> > Who is that again?

> >

> > Oh, that little voice inside your head?

> >

> > The same voice you believe in absolutely as being " you " ?

> >

> > Where'd it come from? Is it an " instinct " ? Is it the universe talking

> > about what is morally right?

> >

> > Ah, you're helpless to control it? Is that it?

> >

> > Put the normal functioning of the socialized human mind up on a throne

> > as if it were a god speaking divine truth, before which you have to bow

> > and grovel, and you will make yourself miserable for sure. And you will

> > seek and seek and seek and never find a way out of that misery.

> >

> > No therapist or book can teach you " self-compassion " if you insist you

> > don't deserve self-compassion. It is like trying to smile at a child at

> > the same time as you kick the child. All the instructions about moving

> > your face muscles a certain way so it looks like you are smiling won't

> > help if you are kicking the child.

> >

> > But there is something you can do for yourself, a weird scary thing your

> > mind will warn you no no no no stay away from.

> >

> > You can start listening.

> >

> > Noticing what the voice says and where it comes

> > from and what else it is quietly whispering to you.

> >

> > Notice what its demands are. If you are like me they go like this:

> >

> > Be perfect. Know the future. Be other than what you are now. Don't be

> > flawed. Be god-like in your ability to solve the problems you face.

> > Don't fail. Don't have failed in the past. Don't fail in the future.

> > Don't screw up.

> >

> > All just whispers . . . so quiet they slip in your ear and you buy them.

> >

> > Well, if you know any perfect human beings who don't screw up and who

> > are therefore have finally earned self-compassion and are deserving of

> > it, please let me know.

> >

> > Self-compassion is not a skill that can be learned while still believing

> > what your mind tells you, that you are guilty and flawed and need to be

> > scolded and punished so you will do better.

> >

> > It is different than that.

> >

> > It is not something that can be weighed on a scale and justified.

> >

> > Just like your value as a human being is not something that can be

> > weighed on a scale and justified.

> >

> > As you start defending your status quo against everything I have written

> > . . . ask yourself what road you are traveling upon. The whip wears a

> > groove in our lives and the groove gets easier and easier to travel in

> > the deeper it deeper it gets. What you are traveling on now, however

> > desperate and horrible it may seem, is the same path I have traveled on,

> > and often stumble back into. It is the easiest path I know. Old stone,

> > deeply grooved, past whippings.

> >

> > If your hand drops that whip, no other hand will pick it up. If you pick

> > up your feet and step out of the groove, no one is waiting to push you

> > back into it.

> >

> > Your hand. Your feet.

> >

> > I don't say this with any sense of superiority whatsoever. None. None.

> > You and I are brothers in this way.

> >

> > - R.

> >

>

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Semantics mumbo jumbo, methinks. Who cares if you think of it as a value? Or as a skill? However best the concept of "compassion" works FOR YOU - go with it. Although I am all for clarifying concepts and definitions, it comes down to what it means to you, how it works for you, as an individual. It is not "one size fits all." I sometimes think of compassion as a value and sometimes as a skill. To me, it can be either, depending on the situation. A value to guide my life, a skill to use in my life.

Helena

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 3:11:10 AMSubject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Hi Terry.

That wasn't what I meant to say. I find that self-compassion sits uneasily with me. Instinctively it feels self-indulgent. It feels like I am making excuses for myself. I certainly wouldn't place it in my values category, not because I am bad at it, but because it would never be something I would want to define me.

So why do I want to learn it if it's not a value? Because it might help me! Same with all ACT skills.

(I am only speaking for myself here, naturally).

x

To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, 22 July 2012, 23:42Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Well, this is interesting. Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but sure sounds a bit like you guys are saying that because you're so lousy at something, it's therefore not a value but only a skill.

That's not where I look to see if something is valued for me. How do you even sense self-compassion is something you want to learn if it's not important, of meaning for you?

If it doesn't matter, why bother?

I tend to see self-compassion as both a value (as in a quality of being with myself that I care deeply about, hold dear)

AND

I see it as something that may be unfamiliar for meANDit's certainly a posture I can become more adept at, more skilled at calling forth by practicing different exercises.

Like acceptance of self, it's a process.

That's how I see it, anyway.terry

To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2012 3:38 AMSubject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

, I had to giggle at your description of yourself as a naturally reserved Brit! I dated one a long time ago for a couple years. You are so right about the "reserved" part, especially when it came to expressing emotions. Yet, he was very sexy! We American girls seem to drool over the British accent.

I like your description of compassion as a skill rather than a value. I think that is so true, especially when it comes to self-compassion, which is hardest for me. I am easily and naturally compassionate about others (which means not wanting to see them suffer or in pain and trying to help when I can). As for me, I tend to kick myself for being "less than" I should be - that should word is a killer.

Helena

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2012 3:06:21 AMSubject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

For me, self-compassion isn't a value. It's a skill. It's a skill I am desperately poor at, given how very easily I buy into the acerbic self-judgements of my mind. I think most people on this list find it hard too.

But I can see how hard to you find it to swallow. I have found it very hard to overcome my naturally reserved (I am British, after all!) personality and start to feel that it's not wrong or indulgent to give myself gentle encouragement and understanding from time to time.

To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, 22 July 2012, 0:57Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Terry,I really liked your comments. I laughed a little reading your "Santa Fe" comment.A lot of the "compassionate" comments on this list are kind of creepy to me. Your comments were a breath of fresh air.People have different likes and taste and "values". So don't worry if you don't conform to this mushy compassion. It's not one of my values and I think many on this list over rates it.

This commenting of mine feels a bit heavy and oh so not compassionate and some of it is unnecessary.

I think some of what pushed my buttons is my own personal experience with red wine.

To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 5:47 PM Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

I'm not sure how much direct practice work Neff has. She seems a bit detached, very "Santa Fe" if you will excuse the stereotype.

One of weirder statements (as in "what doesn't belong here?") that pops out is the choice to include detailing of how to best mitigate the effects of alcohol alongside other self-care ideas. I can't put my finger on, but on both a process and content level, coupling this glass of red wine with an "oh so compassionate" way to unwind after a long day seems weird.

Most of my concern I think has to do with the emphasis on the whole story line about need to relax as a goal. I'm not sure how that jives with a self-compassionate embrace.

Part of it has to do with the suggestion itself.

Confusing messages, speaking out of both ends it seems.

terry

To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 2:21 PMSubject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

I'm not Terry but the book is simply called "Self Compassion". I recommend it as well.

Check the books website:

http://www.self-compassion.org/

Hi Terry

What's the title of this book?--------------------------------

To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 12:32 PMSubject: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

I'm reading Neff's book on self-compassion and really like it so far. Her exercises are very helpful and the practice feels like a warm loving hug and a

slow long deep breath. Really see it as a meta-value and a strong form of acceptance. Just shining a more specific light on this piece. It really resonates.

The posture of self-compassion is pivotal for me as I'm in the high shame and self-critical category.

Anyone else using this stuff?

BTW, I do see a trap...i do see some tendency in readings on compassion (and in my own mind) to turn this all into yet another cure-all, self-help move/technique, but so far that is not a problem.

terry

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Well, of course it comes down to what it means to each of us. This is not what you said a day ago. Gee... Excuse me for clarifying, for crying out loud. I do think that how we hold this matters. It's not just mumbo jumbo To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 9:09 AM Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Semantics mumbo jumbo, methinks. Who cares if you think of it as a value? Or as a skill? However best the concept of "compassion" works FOR YOU - go with it. Although I am all for clarifying concepts and definitions, it comes down to what it means to you, how it works for you, as an individual. It is not "one size fits all." I sometimes think of compassion as a value and sometimes as a skill. To me, it can be either, depending on the situation. A value to guide my life, a skill to use in my life.

Helena

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 3:11:10 AMSubject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Hi Terry.

That wasn't what I meant to say. I find that self-compassion sits uneasily with me. Instinctively it feels self-indulgent. It feels like I am making excuses for myself. I certainly wouldn't place it in my values category, not because I am bad at it, but because it would never be something I would want to define me.

So why do I want to learn it if it's not a value? Because it might help me! Same with all ACT skills.

(I am only speaking for myself here, naturally).

x

To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, 22 July 2012, 23:42Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Well, this is interesting. Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but sure sounds a bit like you guys are saying that because you're so lousy at something, it's therefore not a value but only a skill.

That's not where I look to see if something is valued for me. How do you even sense self-compassion is something you want to learn if it's not important, of meaning for you?

If it doesn't matter, why bother?

I tend to see self-compassion as both a value (as in a quality of being with myself that I care deeply about, hold dear)

AND

I see it as something that may be unfamiliar for meANDit's certainly a posture I can become more adept at, more skilled at calling forth by practicing different exercises.

Like acceptance of self, it's a process.

That's how I see it, anyway.terry

To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2012 3:38 AMSubject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

, I had to giggle at your description of yourself as a naturally reserved Brit! I dated one a long time ago for a couple years. You are so right about the "reserved" part, especially when it came to expressing emotions. Yet, he was very sexy! We American girls seem to drool over the British accent.

I like your description of compassion as a skill rather than a value. I think that is so true, especially when it comes to self-compassion, which is hardest for me. I am easily and naturally compassionate about others (which means not wanting to see them suffer or in pain and trying to help when I can). As for me, I tend to kick myself for being "less than" I should be - that should word is a killer.

Helena

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2012 3:06:21 AMSubject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

For me, self-compassion isn't a value. It's a skill. It's a skill I am desperately poor at, given how very easily I buy into the acerbic self-judgements of my mind. I think most people on this list find it hard too.

But I can see how hard to you find it to swallow. I have found it very hard to overcome my naturally reserved (I am British, after all!) personality and start to feel that it's not wrong or indulgent to give myself gentle encouragement and understanding from time to time.

To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, 22 July 2012, 0:57Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Terry,I really liked your comments. I laughed a little reading your "Santa Fe" comment.A lot of the "compassionate" comments on this list are kind of creepy to me. Your comments were a breath of fresh air.People have different likes and taste and "values". So don't worry if you don't conform to this mushy compassion. It's not one of my values and I think many on this list over rates it.

This commenting of mine feels a bit heavy and oh so not compassionate and some of it is unnecessary.

I think some of what pushed my buttons is my own personal experience with red wine.

To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 5:47 PM Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

I'm not sure how much direct practice work Neff has. She seems a bit detached, very "Santa Fe" if you will excuse the stereotype.

One of weirder statements (as in "what doesn't belong here?") that pops out is the choice to include detailing of how to best mitigate the effects of alcohol alongside other self-care ideas. I can't put my finger on, but on both a process and content level, coupling this glass of red wine with an "oh so compassionate" way to unwind after a long day seems weird.

Most of my concern I think has to do with the emphasis on the whole story line about need to relax as a goal. I'm not sure how that jives with a self-compassionate embrace.

Part of it has to do with the suggestion itself.

Confusing messages, speaking out of both ends it seems.

terry

To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 2:21 PMSubject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

I'm not Terry but the book is simply called "Self Compassion". I recommend it as well.

Check the books website:

http://www.self-compassion.org/

Hi Terry

What's the title of this book?--------------------------------

To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 12:32 PMSubject: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

I'm reading Neff's book on self-compassion and really like it so far. Her exercises are very helpful and the practice feels like a warm loving hug and a

slow long deep breath. Really see it as a meta-value and a strong form of acceptance. Just shining a more specific light on this piece. It really resonates.

The posture of self-compassion is pivotal for me as I'm in the high shame and self-critical category.

Anyone else using this stuff?

BTW, I do see a trap...i do see some tendency in readings on compassion (and in my own mind) to turn this all into yet another cure-all, self-help move/technique, but so far that is not a problem.

terry

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Fair point! x To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Monday, 23 July 2012, 17:09 Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Semantics mumbo jumbo, methinks. Who cares if you think of it as a value? Or as a skill? However best the concept of "compassion" works FOR YOU - go with it. Although I am all for clarifying concepts and definitions, it comes down to what it means to you, how it works for you, as an individual. It is not "one size fits all." I sometimes think of compassion as a value and sometimes as a skill. To me, it can be either, depending on the situation. A value to guide my life, a skill to use in my life.

Helena

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 3:11:10 AMSubject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Hi Terry.

That wasn't what I meant to say. I find that self-compassion sits uneasily with me. Instinctively it feels self-indulgent. It feels like I am making excuses for myself. I certainly wouldn't place it in my values category, not because I am bad at it, but because it would never be something I would want to define me.

So why do I want to learn it if it's not a value? Because it might help me! Same with all ACT skills.

(I am only speaking for myself here, naturally).

x

To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, 22 July 2012, 23:42Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Well, this is interesting. Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but sure sounds a bit like you guys are saying that because you're so lousy at something, it's therefore not a value but only a skill.

That's not where I look to see if something is valued for me. How do you even sense self-compassion is something you want to learn if it's not important, of meaning for you?

If it doesn't matter, why bother?

I tend to see self-compassion as both a value (as in a quality of being with myself that I care deeply about, hold dear)

AND

I see it as something that may be unfamiliar for meANDit's certainly a posture I can become more adept at, more skilled at calling forth by practicing different exercises.

Like acceptance of self, it's a process.

That's how I see it, anyway.terry

To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2012 3:38 AMSubject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

, I had to giggle at your description of yourself as a naturally reserved Brit! I dated one a long time ago for a couple years. You are so right about the "reserved" part, especially when it came to expressing emotions. Yet, he was very sexy! We American girls seem to drool over the British accent.

I like your description of compassion as a skill rather than a value. I think that is so true, especially when it comes to self-compassion, which is hardest for me. I am easily and naturally compassionate about others (which means not wanting to see them suffer or in pain and trying to help when I can). As for me, I tend to kick myself for being "less than" I should be - that should word is a killer.

Helena

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2012 3:06:21 AMSubject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

For me, self-compassion isn't a value. It's a skill. It's a skill I am desperately poor at, given how very easily I buy into the acerbic self-judgements of my mind. I think most people on this list find it hard too.

But I can see how hard to you find it to swallow. I have found it very hard to overcome my naturally reserved (I am British, after all!) personality and start to feel that it's not wrong or indulgent to give myself gentle encouragement and understanding from time to time.

To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, 22 July 2012, 0:57Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Terry,I really liked your comments. I laughed a little reading your "Santa Fe" comment.A lot of the "compassionate" comments on this list are kind of creepy to me. Your comments were a breath of fresh air.People have different likes and taste and "values". So don't worry if you don't conform to this mushy compassion. It's not one of my values and I think many on this list over rates it.

This commenting of mine feels a bit heavy and oh so not compassionate and some of it is unnecessary.

I think some of what pushed my buttons is my own personal experience with red wine.

To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 5:47 PM Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

I'm not sure how much direct practice work Neff has. She seems a bit detached, very "Santa Fe" if you will excuse the stereotype.

One of weirder statements (as in "what doesn't belong here?") that pops out is the choice to include detailing of how to best mitigate the effects of alcohol alongside other self-care ideas. I can't put my finger on, but on both a process and content level, coupling this glass of red wine with an "oh so compassionate" way to unwind after a long day seems weird.

Most of my concern I think has to do with the emphasis on the whole story line about need to relax as a goal. I'm not sure how that jives with a self-compassionate embrace.

Part of it has to do with the suggestion itself.

Confusing messages, speaking out of both ends it seems.

terry

To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 2:21 PMSubject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

I'm not Terry but the book is simply called "Self Compassion". I recommend it as well.

Check the books website:

http://www.self-compassion.org/

Hi Terry

What's the title of this book?--------------------------------

To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 12:32 PMSubject: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

I'm reading Neff's book on self-compassion and really like it so far. Her exercises are very helpful and the practice feels like a warm loving hug and a

slow long deep breath. Really see it as a meta-value and a strong form of acceptance. Just shining a more specific light on this piece. It really resonates.

The posture of self-compassion is pivotal for me as I'm in the high shame and self-critical category.

Anyone else using this stuff?

BTW, I do see a trap...i do see some tendency in readings on compassion (and in my own mind) to turn this all into yet another cure-all, self-help move/technique, but so far that is not a problem.

terry

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More specifically, it matters to me because there is so much distortion around what an ACT value constitutes and I felt some of the commenting here was contributing to the same. To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 11:46 AM Subject: Re: Re:

Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Well, of course it comes down to what it means to each of us. This is not what you said a day ago. Gee... Excuse me for clarifying, for crying out loud. I do think that how we hold this matters. It's not just mumbo jumbo To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 9:09 AM Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Semantics mumbo jumbo, methinks. Who cares if you think of it as a value? Or as a skill? However best the concept of "compassion" works FOR YOU - go with it. Although I am all for clarifying concepts and definitions, it comes down to what it means to you, how it works for you, as an individual. It is not "one size fits all." I sometimes think of compassion as a value and sometimes as a skill. To me, it can be either, depending on the situation. A value to guide my life, a skill to use in my life.

Helena

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 3:11:10 AMSubject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Hi Terry.

That wasn't what I meant to say. I find that self-compassion sits uneasily with me. Instinctively it feels self-indulgent. It feels like I am making excuses for myself. I certainly wouldn't place it in my values category, not because I am bad at it, but because it would never be something I would want to define me.

So why do I want to learn it if it's not a value? Because it might help me! Same with all ACT skills.

(I am only speaking for myself here, naturally).

x

To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, 22 July 2012, 23:42Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Well, this is interesting. Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but sure sounds a bit like you guys are saying that because you're so lousy at something, it's therefore not a value but only a skill.

That's not where I look to see if something is valued for me. How do you even sense self-compassion is something you want to learn if it's not important, of meaning for you?

If it doesn't matter, why bother?

I tend to see self-compassion as both a value (as in a quality of being with myself that I care deeply about, hold dear)

AND

I see it as something that may be unfamiliar for meANDit's certainly a posture I can become more adept at, more skilled at calling forth by practicing different exercises.

Like acceptance of self, it's a process.

That's how I see it, anyway.terry

To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2012 3:38 AMSubject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

, I had to giggle at your description of yourself as a naturally reserved Brit! I dated one a long time ago for a couple years. You are so right about the "reserved" part, especially when it came to expressing emotions. Yet, he was very sexy! We American girls seem to drool over the British accent.

I like your description of compassion as a skill rather than a value. I think that is so true, especially when it comes to self-compassion, which is hardest for me. I am easily and naturally compassionate about others (which means not wanting to see them suffer or in pain and trying to help when I can). As for me, I tend to kick myself for being "less than" I should be - that should word is a killer.

Helena

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2012 3:06:21 AMSubject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

For me, self-compassion isn't a value. It's a skill. It's a skill I am desperately poor at, given how very easily I buy into the acerbic self-judgements of my mind. I think most people on this list find it hard too.

But I can see how hard to you find it to swallow. I have found it very hard to overcome my naturally reserved (I am British, after all!) personality and start to feel that it's not wrong or indulgent to give myself gentle encouragement and understanding from time to time.

To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, 22 July 2012, 0:57Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Terry,I really liked your comments. I laughed a little reading your "Santa Fe" comment.A lot of the "compassionate" comments on this list are kind of creepy to me. Your comments were a breath of fresh air.People have different likes and taste and "values". So don't worry if you don't conform to this mushy compassion. It's not one of my values and I think many on this list over rates it.

This commenting of mine feels a bit heavy and oh so not compassionate and some of it is unnecessary.

I think some of what pushed my buttons is my own personal experience with red wine.

To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 5:47 PM Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

I'm not sure how much direct practice work Neff has. She seems a bit detached, very "Santa Fe" if you will excuse the stereotype.

One of weirder statements (as in "what doesn't belong here?") that pops out is the choice to include detailing of how to best mitigate the effects of alcohol alongside other self-care ideas. I can't put my finger on, but on both a process and content level, coupling this glass of red wine with an "oh so compassionate" way to unwind after a long day seems weird.

Most of my concern I think has to do with the emphasis on the whole story line about need to relax as a goal. I'm not sure how that jives with a self-compassionate embrace.

Part of it has to do with the suggestion itself.

Confusing messages, speaking out of both ends it seems.

terry

To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 2:21 PMSubject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

I'm not Terry but the book is simply called "Self Compassion". I recommend it as well.

Check the books website:

http://www.self-compassion.org/

Hi Terry

What's the title of this book?--------------------------------

To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 12:32 PMSubject: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

I'm reading Neff's book on self-compassion and really like it so far. Her exercises are very helpful and the practice feels like a warm loving hug and a

slow long deep breath. Really see it as a meta-value and a strong form of acceptance. Just shining a more specific light on this piece. It really resonates.

The posture of self-compassion is pivotal for me as I'm in the high shame and self-critical category.

Anyone else using this stuff?

BTW, I do see a trap...i do see some tendency in readings on compassion (and in my own mind) to turn this all into yet another cure-all, self-help move/technique, but so far that is not a problem.

terry

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Forgive me, I misunderstood. Thanks, / Bruce :0) To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, 23 July 2012, 16:59

Subject: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Bruce,

I'm not asking you to feel comfortable with self-compassion.

I'm not arguing out of logic.

I'm not saying you should stop feeling what you feel.

I'm not asking you to feel deserving of self compassion.

I'm not asking you to wait for anything.

None of what you write is in what I wrote.

You can argue & shake your head . . .

Or you can listen to the gaps between the words.

- R.

> >

> > I find that self-compassion sits uneasily with me. Instinctively

> > it feels self-indulgent. It feels like I am making excuses for

> > myself. . . . So why do I want to learn it if it's not a value?

> > Because it might help me! Same with all ACT skills

>

> , see my other post in this thread. Self compassion sat uneasily

> with me too. It felt self-indulgent, like I was making excuses for

> myself. In short, I was doing what you seem to be doing - buying my

> mind's statements that I am guilty, need to be punished or scolded or

> treated harshly. That is what all this talk of "making excuses" boils

> down to. Your mind says you are doing a bad job, should be doing better,

> and until you are doing better, all this namby-pamby kindness &

> compassion stuff will just make you soft. And besides you don't deserve

> it.

>

> How well does this work for you? Really, really well, right? I mean,

> you're pretty much perfect now, right? No problems? Ship-shape?

>

> Not?

>

> Oh, but never mind whether it works - you still don't DESERVE

> self-kindess or self-compassion, right?

>

> Says who?

>

> Who is that again?

>

> Oh, that little voice inside your head?

>

> The same voice you believe in absolutely as being "you"?

>

> Where'd it come from? Is it an "instinct"? Is it the universe talking

> about what is morally right?

>

> Ah, you're helpless to control it? Is that it?

>

> Put the normal functioning of the socialized human mind up on a throne

> as if it were a god speaking divine truth, before which you have to bow

> and grovel, and you will make yourself miserable for sure. And you will

> seek and seek and seek and never find a way out of that misery.

>

> No therapist or book can teach you "self-compassion" if you insist you

> don't deserve self-compassion. It is like trying to smile at a child at

> the same time as you kick the child. All the instructions about moving

> your face muscles a certain way so it looks like you are smiling won't

> help if you are kicking the child.

>

> But there is something you can do for yourself, a weird scary thing your

> mind will warn you no no no no stay away from.

>

> You can start listening.

>

> Noticing what the voice says and where it comes

> from and what else it is quietly whispering to you.

>

> Notice what its demands are. If you are like me they go like this:

>

> Be perfect. Know the future. Be other than what you are now. Don't be

> flawed. Be god-like in your ability to solve the problems you face.

> Don't fail. Don't have failed in the past. Don't fail in the future.

> Don't screw up.

>

> All just whispers . . . so quiet they slip in your ear and you buy them.

>

> Well, if you know any perfect human beings who don't screw up and who

> are therefore have finally earned self-compassion and are deserving of

> it, please let me know.

>

> Self-compassion is not a skill that can be learned while still believing

> what your mind tells you, that you are guilty and flawed and need to be

> scolded and punished so you will do better.

>

> It is different than that.

>

> It is not something that can be weighed on a scale and justified.

>

> Just like your value as a human being is not something that can be

> weighed on a scale and justified.

>

> As you start defending your status quo against everything I have written

> . . . ask yourself what road you are traveling upon. The whip wears a

> groove in our lives and the groove gets easier and easier to travel in

> the deeper it deeper it gets. What you are traveling on now, however

> desperate and horrible it may seem, is the same path I have traveled on,

> and often stumble back into. It is the easiest path I know. Old stone,

> deeply grooved, past whippings.

>

> If your hand drops that whip, no other hand will pick it up. If you pick

> up your feet and step out of the groove, no one is waiting to push you

> back into it.

>

> Your hand. Your feet.

>

> I don't say this with any sense of superiority whatsoever. None. None.

> You and I are brothers in this way.

>

> - R.

>

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Oh, LOL..you and Helena are just too quick on the keyboard for me... To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 11:54 AM Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Fair point! x To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Monday, 23 July 2012, 17:09 Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Semantics mumbo jumbo, methinks. Who cares if you think of it as a value? Or as a skill? However best the concept of "compassion" works FOR YOU - go with it. Although I am all for clarifying concepts and definitions, it comes down to what it means to you, how it works for you, as an individual. It is not "one size fits all." I sometimes think of compassion as a value and sometimes as a skill. To me, it can be either, depending on the situation. A value to guide my life, a skill to use in my life.

Helena

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 3:11:10 AMSubject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Hi Terry.

That wasn't what I meant to say. I find that self-compassion sits uneasily with me. Instinctively it feels self-indulgent. It feels like I am making excuses for myself. I certainly wouldn't place it in my values category, not because I am bad at it, but because it would never be something I would want to define me.

So why do I want to learn it if it's not a value? Because it might help me! Same with all ACT skills.

(I am only speaking for myself here, naturally).

x

To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, 22 July 2012, 23:42Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Well, this is interesting. Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but sure sounds a bit like you guys are saying that because you're so lousy at something, it's therefore not a value but only a skill.

That's not where I look to see if something is valued for me. How do you even sense self-compassion is something you want to learn if it's not important, of meaning for you?

If it doesn't matter, why bother?

I tend to see self-compassion as both a value (as in a quality of being with myself that I care deeply about, hold dear)

AND

I see it as something that may be unfamiliar for meANDit's certainly a posture I can become more adept at, more skilled at calling forth by practicing different exercises.

Like acceptance of self, it's a process.

That's how I see it, anyway.terry

To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2012 3:38 AMSubject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

, I had to giggle at your description of yourself as a naturally reserved Brit! I dated one a long time ago for a couple years. You are so right about the "reserved" part, especially when it came to expressing emotions. Yet, he was very sexy! We American girls seem to drool over the British accent.

I like your description of compassion as a skill rather than a value. I think that is so true, especially when it comes to self-compassion, which is hardest for me. I am easily and naturally compassionate about others (which means not wanting to see them suffer or in pain and trying to help when I can). As for me, I tend to kick myself for being "less than" I should be - that should word is a killer.

Helena

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2012 3:06:21 AMSubject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

For me, self-compassion isn't a value. It's a skill. It's a skill I am desperately poor at, given how very easily I buy into the acerbic self-judgements of my mind. I think most people on this list find it hard too.

But I can see how hard to you find it to swallow. I have found it very hard to overcome my naturally reserved (I am British, after all!) personality and start to feel that it's not wrong or indulgent to give myself gentle encouragement and understanding from time to time.

To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, 22 July 2012, 0:57Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

Terry,I really liked your comments. I laughed a little reading your "Santa Fe" comment.A lot of the "compassionate" comments on this list are kind of creepy to me. Your comments were a breath of fresh air.People have different likes and taste and "values". So don't worry if you don't conform to this mushy compassion. It's not one of my values and I think many on this list over rates it.

This commenting of mine feels a bit heavy and oh so not compassionate and some of it is unnecessary.

I think some of what pushed my buttons is my own personal experience with red wine.

To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 5:47 PM Subject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

I'm not sure how much direct practice work Neff has. She seems a bit detached, very "Santa Fe" if you will excuse the stereotype.

One of weirder statements (as in "what doesn't belong here?") that pops out is the choice to include detailing of how to best mitigate the effects of alcohol alongside other self-care ideas. I can't put my finger on, but on both a process and content level, coupling this glass of red wine with an "oh so compassionate" way to unwind after a long day seems weird.

Most of my concern I think has to do with the emphasis on the whole story line about need to relax as a goal. I'm not sure how that jives with a self-compassionate embrace.

Part of it has to do with the suggestion itself.

Confusing messages, speaking out of both ends it seems.

terry

To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 2:21 PMSubject: Re: Re: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

I'm not Terry but the book is simply called "Self Compassion". I recommend it as well.

Check the books website:

http://www.self-compassion.org/

Hi Terry

What's the title of this book?--------------------------------

To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 12:32 PMSubject: Self-Compassion: Warm embrace/practice value vs. cure-all technique

I'm reading Neff's book on self-compassion and really like it so far. Her exercises are very helpful and the practice feels like a warm loving hug and a

slow long deep breath. Really see it as a meta-value and a strong form of acceptance. Just shining a more specific light on this piece. It really resonates.

The posture of self-compassion is pivotal for me as I'm in the high shame and self-critical category.

Anyone else using this stuff?

BTW, I do see a trap...i do see some tendency in readings on compassion (and in my own mind) to turn this all into yet another cure-all, self-help move/technique, but so far that is not a problem.

terry

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