Re: Experiment with this list

[Guest guest]

Hi , being able to read Feel the Fear and do it Anyway is exactly what

ACT is about.

What I am going to write now may well get a few people defensive and angry, and

that is also okay, they are just emotions and these are just words - if you hook

them they will upset you, your choice. If you feel the need to act or respond,

may I suggest you check your response with your values. (This is ACT is action).

I do have to admit that I understand some of what you mean about the list - I

have been lurking for while now and the most frustrating thing for me to observe

has been the tone of the posts which is why I finally decided to show up. I

dont believe for one moment that meant for this site to become a pity

party and it would be great if he could give his thoughts on this. A lot of the

posts I have seen have really just been about thoughts (and negatives ones at

that) turned into writing and a whole lot of chains and hooks clamped around

them to make damn sure that they stick around and keep the writers " stuck " . I

screen the posts, and seek out key people, being one of them, and I am

amazed at how many times he has hit the nail on the head (as you would expect)

but subsequent posts from posters demonstrate that they either dont get it or

dont really want to get it, the trick is to spot those, dont get pulled into the

dialogue and move on. (Okay that was the harsh straight talking frustrated me,

I will try and get a bit more compassionate now).

I think we do have to recognise that some of the people on this list are trying

to figure this out on their own the best way they can. I think the point of this

group and the postings are more about supporting them and guiding them through

this journey. I joined this group, not because I needed the support as I am

fortunate enough to be working with a trained ACT psychologist who guides me

when I get it wrong, but because I wanted to see if there were some " tricks "

that others may have to help when I get stuck and can add to my " toolbox " as I

call it, and also to learn and share what I have learnt so that others can gain

from ACT. I meant is when I said I wish everyone understood ACT - it is

incredibly powerful. ACT is not a religion, but it can become a way of living

which fits into any religion - living mindfully in support of your values

(whatever your religion) - whatever they may be (and we dont have to have the

same values).

It would be unfortunate if you were to miss out on some valuable posts because

of the " noise " . May I suggest that you use the highlights email and start to

recognise the posters who add value and who dont, to your circumstances, and do

a form of selective screening. And perhaps to all of us on this list, perhaps

we need to stop and check when we write what it is we are actually trying to say

or ask before we post, and be clear about it. That way we dont drag each other

into the hole and fuel each other's emotions.

Just my thoughts.

Bronwyn

>

> Hi all,

>

> This is my observation - I haven't really done a good control experiment on

> this.

>

> But, I think this list has been really bad for me. A lot of it may be that

> it's a group of depressed anxious or embittered people. And that might not

> be a good thing. Also it may be that the list is dominated by just a few

> people and some of these people have an axe to grind. Or they feel anger

> and embitterment and what to spread that anger and embitterment to others.

>

> I would be very curious to see a control study of the efficacy of

> participating in this list.

>

> In some ways I'm puzzled. Studies have shown efficacy of ACT and ACT is

> one of the evidence based therapies. So it may be that ACT would be a big

> help too me if I just stick to the other ACT resources and exclude this

> list. And I will now experiment with that.

>

> My observation now is that REBT for me is much more efficacious. Now there

> might be some things I can take from ACT to improve REBT. The diffusion.

> The mindfulness too. But I think I have to find better mindful exercises

> for me. I'm very ADHD and the sitting and breathing exercises are not all

> that good for me. Vigorous exercise helps me become more mindful. I do

> yoga but I prefer the more vigorous flow types than the types that hold

> ananas. When I go about my business I practice mindfulness. For example

> while driving. Most people are not mindful when driving and race up to

> stop at traffic lights instead of trying to go with flow and maybe time the

> lights.

>

> I'm curious about the studies and if there is anything about what kind of

> people benefit from ACT and from CBT and REBT. Maybe there something about

> me where REBT works better.

>

> And I found positive psychology to be a wonderful resource. It is such a

> big and active area in psychology right now. Everything from the flow work

> by Csikszentmihaly

> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_%28psychology%29>to Selgiman's

> Posttraumatic <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-traumatic_growth>growth

> to Fredrickson's

> Broaden-and-Buil <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broaden-and-build>d, is all

> such good stuff.

>

> One thing about flow. Albert Ellis often talked about having an absorbing

> interest. Csikszentmihaly work on flow is very similar to Ellis idea of

> absorbing interest. I have always thought of ACT's values and committed

> actions as similar to this. But now I think there are some differences.

> The flow or absorbing interest is really something outside of yourself. It

> may reflect your values, but I think being absorbed in something that is

> more outside of yourself may give you something different than the ACT

> values and committed actions. When I read you guys' stuff on this, it just

> seems to self-absorbed or something and sometimes creepy. For this flow

> stuff, think more outside of yourself - maybe think something more

> altruistic - a contribution coming from you to the world outside of

> yourself. Check out Csikszentmihayly's works on flow.

>

> But I'm really grateful to the professionals on this list and will

> experiment with ACT resources excluding this list and I love REBT and

> positive psychology and so of course do a lot with that. I'll drop back in

> next year sometime to see how this list is going and see if the same people

> still dominate the list or if it changes.

>

> Cheers!

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Mindfulness while driving, that's a tricky one, the first time I tried it I nearly crashed the car, well, I felt the car wobble a bit, and when I parked it I hit the kerb. On another ocassion almost the same thing happend. Anyway, I eventually came across a warning in one of my DBT books where the author warned to never drive the car mindfully as it is dangerous and he gave good reasons why. When we are being mindful we normally focus on only a few things, or better still, just the one thing, but driving means being aware of many things all at once, but we can't be consciously mindful of all of them simultaneously.

Now, you might think you can mindful of everything but actually it is not easy. For instance, most of the driving skils we use are done unconsciously, and in the UK that would be throttle, brakes, and clutch. Even much of the stearing is done without undo concentration and is automatic, and you could even be be talking to somene while you doing it, or thinking about dinner. But when I drove mindfully I became acultely aware of the clutch, brake, throttlle, speed and turning the stearing wheel, so much so that it all started to get a bit disjointed.

I have noticed too on my push bike how riding mindfully can be dangerous. I might listen to wind blowing across my ears and the lovely sensation of this, but when I do this I lose awareness of the road in front of me, so I only cycle mindfully when it is safe to do so, like when there is nothing else around.

Theres an interesting article about mindfulness driving here:

http://triangulations.wordpress.com/2011/07/25/mindfulness-hype-driving/

Mindful Driving

Don't get me wrong, the mindful exercise may have its place. But be careful! For instance, when I experiment being mindful while driving my car, I often miss turns. It seems that by focusing on roads, cars and my act of driving, I turn off the simultaneous planning aspect of the brain which unconsciously keeps tabs of where I am and when I should turn. Who knows what else gets turned off in my brain that is actually protecting me. Heck, when I juggle and am too mindful, I drop the balls.

Our multi-tasking brains have evolved that way for adaptive purposes — they work! Turning off our brains can be detrimental. I see mindful practice as useful, but not an end-all. It may build a skill but to idealize it is silly.

Kv

>> Hi all,> > This is my observation - I haven't really done a good control experiment on> this.> > But, I think this list has been really bad for me. A lot of it may be that> it's a group of depressed anxious or embittered people. And that might not> be a good thing. Also it may be that the list is dominated by just a few> people and some of these people have an axe to grind. Or they feel anger> and embitterment and what to spread that anger and embitterment to others.> > I would be very curious to see a control study of the efficacy of> participating in this list.> > In some ways I'm puzzled. Studies have shown efficacy of ACT and ACT is> one of the evidence based therapies. So it may be that ACT would be a big> help too me if I just stick to the other ACT resources and exclude this> list. And I will now experiment with that.> > My observation now is that REBT for me is much more efficacious. Now there> might be some things I can take from ACT to improve REBT. The diffusion.> The mindfulness too. But I think I have to find better mindful exercises> for me. I'm very ADHD and the sitting and breathing exercises are not all> that good for me. Vigorous exercise helps me become more mindful. I do> yoga but I prefer the more vigorous flow types than the types that hold> ananas. When I go about my business I practice mindfulness. For example> while driving. Most people are not mindful when driving and race up to> stop at traffic lights instead of trying to go with flow and maybe time the> lights.> > I'm curious about the studies and if there is anything about what kind of> people benefit from ACT and from CBT and REBT. Maybe there something about> me where REBT works better.> > And I found positive psychology to be a wonderful resource. It is such a> big and active area in psychology right now. Everything from the flow work> by Csikszentmihaly> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_%28psychology%29>to Selgiman's> Posttraumatic <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-traumatic_growth>growth> to Fredrickson's> Broaden-and-Buil <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broaden-and-build>d, is all> such good stuff.> > One thing about flow. Albert Ellis often talked about having an absorbing> interest. Csikszentmihaly work on flow is very similar to Ellis idea of> absorbing interest. I have always thought of ACT's values and committed> actions as similar to this. But now I think there are some differences.> The flow or absorbing interest is really something outside of yourself. It> may reflect your values, but I think being absorbed in something that is> more outside of yourself may give you something different than the ACT> values and committed actions. When I read you guys' stuff on this, it just> seems to self-absorbed or something and sometimes creepy. For this flow> stuff, think more outside of yourself - maybe think something more> altruistic - a contribution coming from you to the world outside of> yourself. Check out Csikszentmihayly's works on flow.> > But I'm really grateful to the professionals on this list and will> experiment with ACT resources excluding this list and I love REBT and> positive psychology and so of course do a lot with that. I'll drop back in> next year sometime to see how this list is going and see if the same people> still dominate the list or if it changes.> > Cheers!> > >

[Guest guest]

Many people here get an enormous amount out of this list, and when I see

people chatting to each other I think it is quite nice. And it helps

people to reflect on things in their lives and check with others whether

their thought and feelings are okay. Maybe only a few people do use the

list a lot, but I find what they say interesting. Does it have to be all

about therapy and also totally revelent to everyone here?

It will be interesting to see if you have changed at all in a years

time, . Also, the most angriest person on this list has to be

you.

Kv

>

> Hi all,

>

> This is my observation - I haven't really done a good control

experiment on

> this.

>

> But, I think this list has been really bad for me. A lot of it may be

that

> it's a group of depressed anxious or embittered people. And that might

not

> be a good thing. Also it may be that the list is dominated by just a

few

> people and some of these people have an axe to grind. Or they feel

anger

> and embitterment and what to spread that anger and embitterment to

others.

>

> I would be very curious to see a control study of the efficacy of

> participating in this list.

>

> In some ways I'm puzzled. Studies have shown efficacy of ACT and ACT

is

> one of the evidence based therapies. So it may be that ACT would be a

big

> help too me if I just stick to the other ACT resources and exclude

this

> list. And I will now experiment with that.

>

> My observation now is that REBT for me is much more efficacious. Now

there

> might be some things I can take from ACT to improve REBT. The

diffusion.

> The mindfulness too. But I think I have to find better mindful

exercises

> for me. I'm very ADHD and the sitting and breathing exercises are not

all

> that good for me. Vigorous exercise helps me become more mindful. I do

> yoga but I prefer the more vigorous flow types than the types that

hold

> ananas. When I go about my business I practice mindfulness. For

example

> while driving. Most people are not mindful when driving and race up to

> stop at traffic lights instead of trying to go with flow and maybe

time the

> lights.

>

> I'm curious about the studies and if there is anything about what kind

of

> people benefit from ACT and from CBT and REBT. Maybe there something

about

> me where REBT works better.

>

> And I found positive psychology to be a wonderful resource. It is such

a

> big and active area in psychology right now. Everything from the flow

work

> by Csikszentmihaly

> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_%28psychology%29>to Selgiman's

> Posttraumatic

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-traumatic_growth>growth

> to Fredrickson's

> Broaden-and-Buil <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broaden-and-build>d, is

all

> such good stuff.

>

> One thing about flow. Albert Ellis often talked about having an

absorbing

> interest. Csikszentmihaly work on flow is very similar to Ellis idea

of

> absorbing interest. I have always thought of ACT's values and

committed

> actions as similar to this. But now I think there are some

differences.

> The flow or absorbing interest is really something outside of

yourself. It

> may reflect your values, but I think being absorbed in something that

is

> more outside of yourself may give you something different than the ACT

> values and committed actions. When I read you guys' stuff on this, it

just

> seems to self-absorbed or something and sometimes creepy. For this

flow

> stuff, think more outside of yourself - maybe think something more

> altruistic - a contribution coming from you to the world outside of

> yourself. Check out Csikszentmihayly's works on flow.

>

> But I'm really grateful to the professionals on this list and will

> experiment with ACT resources excluding this list and I love REBT and

> positive psychology and so of course do a lot with that. I'll drop

back in

> next year sometime to see how this list is going and see if the same

people

> still dominate the list or if it changes.

>

> Cheers!

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> A lot of the posts I have seen have really just been about

> thoughts (and negatives ones at that) turned into writing and a

> whole lot of chains and hooks clamped around them to make damn

> sure that they stick around and keep the writers " stuck. " I

> screen the posts, and seek out key people, being one of

> them, and I am amazed at how many times he has hit the nail on

> the head (as you would expect) but subsequent posts from posters

> demonstrate that they either don't get it or don't really want to

> get it.

Hi Bronwyn -

I find the list noisy too. But as for people " not wanting to get " the

insights that Steve and other key posters have to offer - I don't think

that's it at all. I just think ACT is tricky, tricky stuff. And we get

caught in our own loops because we're human and loops are what we know.

ACT researchers are trying to make ACT clearer. Polk has invented

a simple model called the Matrix that is so powerful many therapists are

now using it. And Russ is pushing hard for non-mystical,

non-geeky language in all his books. And yet the Matrix can easily seem

a gimmick if not brought to life by someone knowledgable, and the

best of Russ's books is still a book. A book can't see when a human

being is stuck and it can't vary its presentation to tease open that

particular kind of stuckness.

In my case, I've been reading and trying out ACT workbooks since 2005

and although I very quickly acquired some remarkable (for me)

flexibility early on for certain social contexts, it has taken me many

years to move beyond that initial toehold and venture into more

difficult contexts. With the help of a very good therapist this past

spring, I've learned more in six months than I learned in the six

previous years. Books were a great start and this list was a big help. A

good therapist is more flexible than a book and more granular than this

list, but way more expensive. Catch 22, yeah - another subject, that.

Why is ACT so hard to learn for some of us? I think it is because

conventional verbal behavior (what has called " living in

the 'about' world " is (a) not just useful but essential most of the

time; ( drilled into us from birth until we often don't known we are

practicing it even though we do our best on this list to bring it into

the light and talk about it; and © socially rewarded on both sides of

usual conversations.

Plus (d) we are human and that is OK too. Well, " OK " is too small a word

to mean what I mean. We are human and it is everything.

Hence all the noodling around we do on this list, trying to grasp what

is so damn simple we can't grasp it with words. Like trying to pick up a

watermelon with chopsticks. Yeah, it does get noisy. But follow the list

for enough months & years and you can see amazing changes in people

despite the noise.

Beyond that, the list is noisy for a different reason: it's a catchall

for anyone interested in anything even remotely bearing on ACT - or not.

And actually, I'd say about half the list traffic falls into the " not "

category. People come here to socialize, get sympathy, get support,

exchange stories of wonder or woe, or argue with a particular person

they love to argue with. In that respect the list is as human as a

street corner or the neighborhood bar.

I wouldn't mind seeing the list split into three related lists, all

accessible from the same main page on Yahoo: A list for ACT questions; a

list for questions or comments about other aspects of psychology,

psychopharmacology, finding a therapist, etc.; and finally, a social

list for those who have made friends here and want to have conversations

apart from the main list. I belong to other forums (e.g. a very good

forum on sleep apnea) that do it this way & it seems to work.

On the other hand it might be a big management chore for the ACT folks

running the list to try & set something like this up. Anyway this week

they are off at WorldCon (the annual ACT convention) inventing the

future, so all this will have to wait.

Hope I wasn't too noisy!

- Randy

P.S. Forgive me - this ought to go in the third list! - but you have a

lovely name, one I rarely come across. I first encountered it in a

luminous novel by the writer O', set in Wales, and have

never forgotten it.

[Guest guest]

Very nice post, Randy. I always appreciate what you have to say and the skill with which you say it.I don't consider a "key poster" - although his contributions here along with those from the other ACT professionals are invaluable and much appreciated. This is a public list, so the key posters are "the public." Those of us who have been "doing" ACT for awhile, however imperfectly, those of us who are novices, those of us who can't seem to get the hang of it, those of use who are suffering and struggling - those of us who are brave enough to put our stuff out there, especially the deeply painful and ugly stuff. We are the ACT key posters; we are its heroes.I do not find the noise problematic because I have a set of invisible earplugs to use. I can delete without reading posts from people who frequently push my buttons (or not), whom I have found to be generally unhelpful (to me), who appear to be self-indulgent, argumentative, foul-mouthed, disingenuous - you name the human trait - it's all here. I seldom use those earplugs, however, usually finding it within my heart to read what everyone has to say because, in one way or another, I've been there, done that, and maybe I can offer something to help even if I am not helped in return, or even if I am annoyed, by a particular post.This idea that we "should" know how to post ACT-appropriately at all times and we become disenchanted when we see that others don't do that - well, it doesn't sit well with me and doesn't feel ACT-like in its judgmental quality. I love the variety I find here from people in all stages of development, from the deepest lows to the highest highs. I love the humanity I find here. It is within the depth of that humanity that I learn. As memorable, helpful and inspirational as the words from the professionals are, I learn the most from those who are struggling. My heart goes out to them. And to me, as I struggle. I see growth in myself and in others I've followed here over the past several years, and that is the ultimate inspiration. I am finding my way in spite of my imperfections, including my fault of over-posting at times, and sometimes being too direct (or so it seems). I find an opportunity to look at myself when someone doesn't agree with me - take a look within to see if I am on course or just showing off, getting hooked again, or whatever.Godspeed to us all (whoever you perceive "God" to be)!HelenaTo: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 5:25:56 PMSubject: Re: Experiment with this list

>

> A lot of the posts I have seen have really just been about

> thoughts (and negatives ones at that) turned into writing and a

> whole lot of chains and hooks clamped around them to make damn

> sure that they stick around and keep the writers "stuck." I

> screen the posts, and seek out key people, being one of

> them, and I am amazed at how many times he has hit the nail on

> the head (as you would expect) but subsequent posts from posters

> demonstrate that they either don't get it or don't really want to

> get it.

Hi Bronwyn -

I find the list noisy too. But as for people "not wanting to get" the

insights that Steve and other key posters have to offer - I don't think

that's it at all. I just think ACT is tricky, tricky stuff. And we get

caught in our own loops because we're human and loops are what we know.

ACT researchers are trying to make ACT clearer. Polk has invented

a simple model called the Matrix that is so powerful many therapists are

now using it. And Russ is pushing hard for non-mystical,

non-geeky language in all his books. And yet the Matrix can easily seem

a gimmick if not brought to life by someone knowledgable, and the

best of Russ's books is still a book. A book can't see when a human

being is stuck and it can't vary its presentation to tease open that

particular kind of stuckness.

In my case, I've been reading and trying out ACT workbooks since 2005

and although I very quickly acquired some remarkable (for me)

flexibility early on for certain social contexts, it has taken me many

years to move beyond that initial toehold and venture into more

difficult contexts. With the help of a very good therapist this past

spring, I've learned more in six months than I learned in the six

previous years. Books were a great start and this list was a big help. A

good therapist is more flexible than a book and more granular than this

list, but way more expensive. Catch 22, yeah - another subject, that.

Why is ACT so hard to learn for some of us? I think it is because

conventional verbal behavior (what has called "living in

the 'about' world" is (a) not just useful but essential most of the

time; ( drilled into us from birth until we often don't known we are

practicing it even though we do our best on this list to bring it into

the light and talk about it; and © socially rewarded on both sides of

usual conversations.

Plus (d) we are human and that is OK too. Well, "OK" is too small a word

to mean what I mean. We are human and it is everything.

Hence all the noodling around we do on this list, trying to grasp what

is so damn simple we can't grasp it with words. Like trying to pick up a

watermelon with chopsticks. Yeah, it does get noisy. But follow the list

for enough months & years and you can see amazing changes in people

despite the noise.

Beyond that, the list is noisy for a different reason: it's a catchall

for anyone interested in anything even remotely bearing on ACT - or not.

And actually, I'd say about half the list traffic falls into the "not"

category. People come here to socialize, get sympathy, get support,

exchange stories of wonder or woe, or argue with a particular person

they love to argue with. In that respect the list is as human as a

street corner or the neighborhood bar.

I wouldn't mind seeing the list split into three related lists, all

accessible from the same main page on Yahoo: A list for ACT questions; a

list for questions or comments about other aspects of psychology,

psychopharmacology, finding a therapist, etc.; and finally, a social

list for those who have made friends here and want to have conversations

apart from the main list. I belong to other forums (e.g. a very good

forum on sleep apnea) that do it this way & it seems to work.

On the other hand it might be a big management chore for the ACT folks

running the list to try & set something like this up. Anyway this week

they are off at WorldCon (the annual ACT convention) inventing the

future, so all this will have to wait.

Hope I wasn't too noisy!

- Randy

P.S. Forgive me - this ought to go in the third list! - but you have a

lovely name, one I rarely come across. I first encountered it in a

luminous novel by the writer O', set in Wales, and have

never forgotten it.

[Guest guest]

Randy,Re: "In my case, I've been reading and trying out ACT workbooks since 2005

and although I very quickly acquired some remarkable (for me)

flexibility early on for certain social contexts, it has taken me many

years to move beyond that initial toehold and venture into more

difficult contexts. With the help of a very good therapist this past

spring, I've learned more in six months than I learned in the six

previous years. Books were a great start and this list was a big help. A

good therapist is more flexible than a book and more granular than this

list, but way more expensive. Catch 22, yeah - another subject, that."That's great you found such help in therapy! Do you mind sharing a bit more about what you sense is so helpful and powerful in your therapy for you..e.g., do you and your therapist use ACT exercises from ACT workbooks at all? What about the ACT list, e.g., posts from Steve?thanks,terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent:

Tuesday, July 24, 2012 2:25 PM Subject: Re: Experiment with this list

>

> A lot of the posts I have seen have really just been about

> thoughts (and negatives ones at that) turned into writing and a

> whole lot of chains and hooks clamped around them to make damn

> sure that they stick around and keep the writers "stuck." I

> screen the posts, and seek out key people, being one of

> them, and I am amazed at how many times he has hit the nail on

> the head (as you would expect) but subsequent posts from posters

> demonstrate that they either don't get it or don't really want to

> get it.

Hi Bronwyn -

I find the list noisy too. But as for people "not wanting to get" the

insights that Steve and other key posters have to offer - I don't think

that's it at all. I just think ACT is tricky, tricky stuff. And we get

caught in our own loops because we're human and loops are what we know.

ACT researchers are trying to make ACT clearer. Polk has invented

a simple model called the Matrix that is so powerful many therapists are

now using it. And Russ is pushing hard for non-mystical,

non-geeky language in all his books. And yet the Matrix can easily seem

a gimmick if not brought to life by someone knowledgable, and the

best of Russ's books is still a book. A book can't see when a human

being is stuck and it can't vary its presentation to tease open that

particular kind of stuckness.

In my case, I've been reading and trying out ACT workbooks since 2005

and although I very quickly acquired some remarkable (for me)

flexibility early on for certain social contexts, it has taken me many

years to move beyond that initial toehold and venture into more

difficult contexts. With the help of a very good therapist this past

spring, I've learned more in six months than I learned in the six

previous years. Books were a great start and this list was a big help. A

good therapist is more flexible than a book and more granular than this

list, but way more expensive. Catch 22, yeah - another subject, that.

Why is ACT so hard to learn for some of us? I think it is because

conventional verbal behavior (what has called "living in

the 'about' world" is (a) not just useful but essential most of the

time; ( drilled into us from birth until we often don't known we are

practicing it even though we do our best on this list to bring it into

the light and talk about it; and © socially rewarded on both sides of

usual conversations.

Plus (d) we are human and that is OK too. Well, "OK" is too small a word

to mean what I mean. We are human and it is everything.

Hence all the noodling around we do on this list, trying to grasp what

is so damn simple we can't grasp it with words. Like trying to pick up a

watermelon with chopsticks. Yeah, it does get noisy. But follow the list

for enough months & years and you can see amazing changes in people

despite the noise.

Beyond that, the list is noisy for a different reason: it's a catchall

for anyone interested in anything even remotely bearing on ACT - or not.

And actually, I'd say about half the list traffic falls into the "not"

category. People come here to socialize, get sympathy, get support,

exchange stories of wonder or woe, or argue with a particular person

they love to argue with. In that respect the list is as human as a

street corner or the neighborhood bar.

I wouldn't mind seeing the list split into three related lists, all

accessible from the same main page on Yahoo: A list for ACT questions; a

list for questions or comments about other aspects of psychology,

psychopharmacology, finding a therapist, etc.; and finally, a social

list for those who have made friends here and want to have conversations

apart from the main list. I belong to other forums (e.g. a very good

forum on sleep apnea) that do it this way & it seems to work.

On the other hand it might be a big management chore for the ACT folks

running the list to try & set something like this up. Anyway this week

they are off at WorldCon (the annual ACT convention) inventing the

future, so all this will have to wait.

Hope I wasn't too noisy!

- Randy

P.S. Forgive me - this ought to go in the third list! - but you have a

lovely name, one I rarely come across. I first encountered it in a

luminous novel by the writer O', set in Wales, and have

never forgotten it.

[Guest guest]

I consider a hugely key poster! I know I wouldn't have followed this list as longas I have without his continuous loving examples, replete with provocative questions.. expounding on all ACT processes in many ways.I also don't know what is meant as to who is "public" here (?). I've always held we all are, professionals and lay alike. To: ACT for the Public

<ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 8:11 PM Subject: Re: Re: Experiment with this list

Very nice post, Randy. I always appreciate what you have to say and the skill with which you say it.I don't consider a "key poster" - although his contributions here along with those from the other ACT professionals are invaluable and much appreciated. This is a public list, so the key posters are "the public." Those of us who have been "doing" ACT for awhile, however imperfectly, those of us who are novices, those of us who can't seem to get the hang of it, those of use who are suffering and struggling - those of us who are brave enough to put our stuff out there, especially the deeply painful and ugly stuff. We are the ACT key posters; we are its heroes.I do not find the noise problematic because I have a set of

invisible earplugs to use. I can delete without reading posts from people who frequently push my buttons (or not), whom I have found to be generally unhelpful (to me), who appear to be self-indulgent, argumentative, foul-mouthed, disingenuous - you name the human trait - it's all here. I seldom use those earplugs, however, usually finding it within my heart to read what everyone has to say because, in one way or another, I've been there, done that, and maybe I can offer something to help even if I am not helped in return, or even if I am annoyed, by a particular post.This idea that we "should" know how to post ACT-appropriately at all times and we become disenchanted when we see that others don't do that - well, it doesn't sit well with me and doesn't feel ACT-like in its judgmental quality. I love the

variety I find here from people in all stages of development, from the deepest lows to the highest highs. I love the humanity I find here. It is within the depth of that humanity that I learn. As memorable, helpful and inspirational as the words from the professionals are, I learn the most from those who are struggling. My heart goes out to them. And to me, as I struggle. I see growth in myself and in others I've followed here over the past several years, and that is the ultimate inspiration. I am finding my way in spite of my imperfections, including my fault of over-posting at times, and sometimes being too direct (or so it seems). I find an opportunity to look at myself when someone doesn't agree with me - take a look within to see if I am on course or just showing off, getting hooked again, or whatever.Godspeed to us all (whoever you perceive "God" to be)!HelenaTo: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 5:25:56 PMSubject: Re: Experiment with this list

>

> A lot of the posts I have seen have really just been about

> thoughts (and negatives ones at that) turned into writing and a

> whole lot of chains and hooks clamped around them to make damn

> sure that they stick around and keep the writers "stuck." I

> screen the posts, and seek out key people, being one of

> them, and I am amazed at how many times he has hit the nail on

> the head (as you would expect) but subsequent posts from posters

> demonstrate that they either don't get it or don't really want to

> get it.

Hi Bronwyn -

I find the list noisy too. But as for people "not wanting to get" the

insights that Steve and other key posters have to offer - I don't think

that's it at all. I just think ACT is tricky, tricky stuff. And we get

caught in our own loops because we're human and loops are what we know.

ACT researchers are trying to make ACT clearer. Polk has invented

a simple model called the Matrix that is so powerful many therapists are

now using it. And Russ is pushing hard for non-mystical,

non-geeky language in all his books. And yet the Matrix can easily seem

a gimmick if not brought to life by someone knowledgable, and the

best of Russ's books is still a book. A book can't see when a human

being is stuck and it can't vary its presentation to tease open that

particular kind of stuckness.

In my case, I've been reading and trying out ACT workbooks since 2005

and although I very quickly acquired some remarkable (for me)

flexibility early on for certain social contexts, it has taken me many

years to move beyond that initial toehold and venture into more

difficult contexts. With the help of a very good therapist this past

spring, I've learned more in six months than I learned in the six

previous years. Books were a great start and this list was a big help. A

good therapist is more flexible than a book and more granular than this

list, but way more expensive. Catch 22, yeah - another subject, that.

Why is ACT so hard to learn for some of us? I think it is because

conventional verbal behavior (what has called "living in

the 'about' world" is (a) not just useful but essential most of the

time; ( drilled into us from birth until we often don't known we are

practicing it even though we do our best on this list to bring it into

the light and talk about it; and © socially rewarded on both sides of

usual conversations.

Plus (d) we are human and that is OK too. Well, "OK" is too small a word

to mean what I mean. We are human and it is everything.

Hence all the noodling around we do on this list, trying to grasp what

is so damn simple we can't grasp it with words. Like trying to pick up a

watermelon with chopsticks. Yeah, it does get noisy. But follow the list

for enough months & years and you can see amazing changes in people

despite the noise.

Beyond that, the list is noisy for a different reason: it's a catchall

for anyone interested in anything even remotely bearing on ACT - or not.

And actually, I'd say about half the list traffic falls into the "not"

category. People come here to socialize, get sympathy, get support,

exchange stories of wonder or woe, or argue with a particular person

they love to argue with. In that respect the list is as human as a

street corner or the neighborhood bar.

I wouldn't mind seeing the list split into three related lists, all

accessible from the same main page on Yahoo: A list for ACT questions; a

list for questions or comments about other aspects of psychology,

psychopharmacology, finding a therapist, etc.; and finally, a social

list for those who have made friends here and want to have conversations

apart from the main list. I belong to other forums (e.g. a very good

forum on sleep apnea) that do it this way & it seems to work.

On the other hand it might be a big management chore for the ACT folks

running the list to try & set something like this up. Anyway this week

they are off at WorldCon (the annual ACT convention) inventing the

future, so all this will have to wait.

Hope I wasn't too noisy!

- Randy

P.S. Forgive me - this ought to go in the third list! - but you have a

lovely name, one I rarely come across. I first encountered it in a

luminous novel by the writer O', set in Wales, and have

never forgotten it.

[Guest guest]

And I'm a bit surprised you'd not consider Steve as part of the "public", what with his very human examples of his own suffering. To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 4:00 PM Subject: Re: Re: Experiment with this list

I consider a hugely key poster! I know I wouldn't have followed this list as longas I have without his continuous loving examples, replete with provocative questions.. expounding on all ACT processes in many ways.I also don't know what is meant as to who is "public" here (?). I've always held we all are, professionals and lay alike. To: ACT for the Public

<ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 8:11 PM Subject: Re: Re: Experiment with this list

Very nice post, Randy. I always appreciate what you have to say and the skill with which you say it.I don't consider a "key poster" - although his contributions here along with those from the other ACT professionals are invaluable and much appreciated. This is a public list, so the key posters are "the public." Those of us who have been "doing" ACT for awhile, however imperfectly, those of us who are novices, those of us who can't seem to get the hang of it, those of use who are suffering and struggling - those of us who are brave enough to put our stuff out there, especially the deeply painful and ugly stuff. We are the ACT key posters; we are its heroes.I do not find the noise problematic because I have a set of

invisible earplugs to use. I can delete without reading posts from people who frequently push my buttons (or not), whom I have found to be generally unhelpful (to me), who appear to be self-indulgent, argumentative, foul-mouthed, disingenuous - you name the human trait - it's all here. I seldom use those earplugs, however, usually finding it within my heart to read what everyone has to say because, in one way or another, I've been there, done that, and maybe I can offer something to help even if I am not helped in return, or even if I am annoyed, by a particular post.This idea that we "should" know how to post ACT-appropriately at all times and we become disenchanted when we see that others don't do that - well, it doesn't sit well with me and doesn't feel ACT-like in its judgmental quality. I love the

variety I find here from people in all stages of development, from the deepest lows to the highest highs. I love the humanity I find here. It is within the depth of that humanity that I learn. As memorable, helpful and inspirational as the words from the professionals are, I learn the most from those who are struggling. My heart goes out to them. And to me, as I struggle. I see growth in myself and in others I've followed here over the past several years, and that is the ultimate inspiration. I am finding my way in spite of my imperfections, including my fault of over-posting at times, and sometimes being too direct (or so it seems). I find an opportunity to look at myself when someone doesn't agree with me - take a look within to see if I am on course or just showing off, getting hooked again, or whatever.Godspeed to us all (whoever you perceive "God" to be)!HelenaTo: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 5:25:56 PMSubject: Re: Experiment with this list

>

> A lot of the posts I have seen have really just been about

> thoughts (and negatives ones at that) turned into writing and a

> whole lot of chains and hooks clamped around them to make damn

> sure that they stick around and keep the writers "stuck." I

> screen the posts, and seek out key people, being one of

> them, and I am amazed at how many times he has hit the nail on

> the head (as you would expect) but subsequent posts from posters

> demonstrate that they either don't get it or don't really want to

> get it.

Hi Bronwyn -

I find the list noisy too. But as for people "not wanting to get" the

insights that Steve and other key posters have to offer - I don't think

that's it at all. I just think ACT is tricky, tricky stuff. And we get

caught in our own loops because we're human and loops are what we know.

ACT researchers are trying to make ACT clearer. Polk has invented

a simple model called the Matrix that is so powerful many therapists are

now using it. And Russ is pushing hard for non-mystical,

non-geeky language in all his books. And yet the Matrix can easily seem

a gimmick if not brought to life by someone knowledgable, and the

best of Russ's books is still a book. A book can't see when a human

being is stuck and it can't vary its presentation to tease open that

particular kind of stuckness.

In my case, I've been reading and trying out ACT workbooks since 2005

and although I very quickly acquired some remarkable (for me)

flexibility early on for certain social contexts, it has taken me many

years to move beyond that initial toehold and venture into more

difficult contexts. With the help of a very good therapist this past

spring, I've learned more in six months than I learned in the six

previous years. Books were a great start and this list was a big help. A

good therapist is more flexible than a book and more granular than this

list, but way more expensive. Catch 22, yeah - another subject, that.

Why is ACT so hard to learn for some of us? I think it is because

conventional verbal behavior (what has called "living in

the 'about' world" is (a) not just useful but essential most of the

time; ( drilled into us from birth until we often don't known we are

practicing it even though we do our best on this list to bring it into

the light and talk about it; and © socially rewarded on both sides of

usual conversations.

Plus (d) we are human and that is OK too. Well, "OK" is too small a word

to mean what I mean. We are human and it is everything.

Hence all the noodling around we do on this list, trying to grasp what

is so damn simple we can't grasp it with words. Like trying to pick up a

watermelon with chopsticks. Yeah, it does get noisy. But follow the list

for enough months & years and you can see amazing changes in people

despite the noise.

Beyond that, the list is noisy for a different reason: it's a catchall

for anyone interested in anything even remotely bearing on ACT - or not.

And actually, I'd say about half the list traffic falls into the "not"

category. People come here to socialize, get sympathy, get support,

exchange stories of wonder or woe, or argue with a particular person

they love to argue with. In that respect the list is as human as a

street corner or the neighborhood bar.

I wouldn't mind seeing the list split into three related lists, all

accessible from the same main page on Yahoo: A list for ACT questions; a

list for questions or comments about other aspects of psychology,

psychopharmacology, finding a therapist, etc.; and finally, a social

list for those who have made friends here and want to have conversations

apart from the main list. I belong to other forums (e.g. a very good

forum on sleep apnea) that do it this way & it seems to work.

On the other hand it might be a big management chore for the ACT folks

running the list to try & set something like this up. Anyway this week

they are off at WorldCon (the annual ACT convention) inventing the

future, so all this will have to wait.

Hope I wasn't too noisy!

- Randy

P.S. Forgive me - this ought to go in the third list! - but you have a

lovely name, one I rarely come across. I first encountered it in a

luminous novel by the writer O', set in Wales, and have

never forgotten it.

[Guest guest]

To me Helena is just differentiating between the ACT professionals who set up

and/or contribute to the list and the rest of us who've joined the list, not

that the professionals don't offer examples of their own personal struggles.

Kate

>

> And I'm a bit surprised you'd not consider Steve as part of the " public " , what

with his very human examples of his own suffering.

>

> ________________________________

>

> To: " ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public >

> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 4:00 PM

> Subject: Re: Re: Experiment with this list

>

>

> I consider a hugely key poster! I know I wouldn't have followed

this list as long

> as I have without his continuous loving examples, replete with provocative

questions.. expounding on all ACT processes in many ways.

>

>

> I also don't know what is meant as to who is " public " here (?). I've always

held we all are, professionals and lay alike.

>

>

> ________________________________

>

> To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public >

> Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 8:11 PM

> Subject: Re: Re: Experiment with this list

>

>

>  

> Very nice post, Randy.  I always appreciate what you have to say and the

skill with which you say it.

> I don't consider a " key poster " - although his contributions here along

with those from the other ACT professionals are invaluable and much appreciated.

 This is a public list, so the key posters are " the public. "  Those of us who

have been " doing " ACT for awhile, however imperfectly, those of us who are

novices, those of us who can't seem to get the hang of it, those of use who are

suffering and struggling - those of us who are brave enough to put our stuff out

there, especially the deeply painful and ugly stuff. We are the ACT key posters;

we are its heroes.

>

[Guest guest]

> Do you mind sharing a bit more about what you sense is so helpful

> and powerful in your therapy for you?

That's a good question. Since I know very little and can explain it

even less, even to myself, my answer must be inadequate; but here goes

anyway.

Mostly it's what I already alluded to: A great ACT exercise in a book

or a great post by Steve can be just what a person needs . . .

IF that person is at exactly the right point to benefit. But it is not

an interactive process. So many of us can do no more than say " Wow,

fantastic post, " and feel inspired. We aren't at the precise point,

with enough resources and enough radical social support, to convert

that inspiration into meaningful and sustained action. And our own

personal word machine, the one we have known and trusted since birth,

is hell-bent on numbing us back into make-believe land. There is no

one there to say " Uh . . . that big cathode ray tube in your head . . .

don't look now, but it just flicked on again. "

Of course, the ACT books and this list are WAY better than nothing.

WAY WAY better. I am grateful they exist. And I think many people,

not just in this list but in the world, have had their lives changed

by one ACT book or another.

And yet.

A therapist, if well trained in ACT and maybe other disciplines such

as FAP (Functional Analytic Psychotherapy) can listen to me and play

back what I am saying to me in terms of how my words are functioning.

Or can interrupt when interrupting seems useful. Or model compassion.

Or point out in real time how I am responding to an aversive stimulus.

Etc., etc. I haven't met the book yet that can do that.

One of my big discoveries with my therapist - which again, I wrote

about just recently - is the degree to which my everyday thoughts are

often deeply cruel and punishing even as they seem utterly plausible.

Now, I can read a book about this phenomenon . . . or a post about it

.. . . and I have. Sort of. But not quite. And reading about this sort

of thing is not as powerful as having someone point it out in real

time and then, in the weeks following the therapy session, practicing

each day how to hear this particular mental tone of voice myself.

And this kind of simple discrimination is just the beginning. One of

my first baby steps. And yet not a baby step, for it is something to

practice the rest of my life. Along with other baby steps I also hope

to learn and keep practicing.

I debated whether even to come back to this list since I am a babe in

the woods. But the experience of finally, for the first time, hearing

the cruel voice in my head for WHAT IT WAS and learning I could be

KIND to it rather than push it away as BAD was huge for me.

So I thought maybe I could mention that here & it might be helpful to

someone.

Another thing I want to mention is that our feelings don't always have

to rule our behavior, despite the many, many messages from people on

the list asserting that they are captive to how they feel. I know that

attitude well and sometimes am still " captive " in exactly that way.

And yet.

I have been dog tired these past few weeks thanks to sleep problems

(apnea and restless legs) and yet have worked hard, long days doing

what was important to me. I have done things I used to say " no " to

" because I'm too tired " or for some other " reason. " I have become

more flexible in ways I swore I never would.

And I have been struck hard by how little I know.

There are folks on this list who are drowning in plain sight. I can't

do anything to help them because the life preservers I try and toss to

them are made of words, and it is words that are pulling these folks

under the water to begin with.

Words may get me too, suck me under the water. It could happen to any

of us.

And yet.

- R.

[Guest guest]

Oh, sure..just exploring the meaning of these terms more. Probably just some

artificial and unnecessary distinctions being made. Helena picked up on Randy's

comment and expounded on it. And then I expounded more. And so here we are!

Personally, I find it gets a bit cloudy when you start saying so and so is not a

key poster because s/he is a professional or because s/he set up the the list.

The term " key poster " in my mind is about being pivotal, central to the

integrity of the list. NOT to say we don't all contribute a ton! But,

hey..let's face it..can't get more central or key than Steve.

And the other cloudy word term here is what constitutes " public " ? Well, on this

list, we're all public, IMO.

terry

> >

> > And I'm a bit surprised you'd not consider Steve as part of the " public " ,

what with his very human examples of his own suffering.

> >

> > ________________________________

> > From: Theresa Linder <theresa.linder@>

> > To: " ACT_for_the_Public "

<ACT_for_the_Public >

> > Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 4:00 PM

> > Subject: Re: Re: Experiment with this list

> >

> >

> > I consider a hugely key poster! I know I wouldn't have followed

this list as long

> > as I have without his continuous loving examples, replete with provocative

questions.. expounding on all ACT processes in many ways.

> >

> >

> > I also don't know what is meant as to who is " public " here (?). I've always

held we all are, professionals and lay alike.

> >

> >

> > ________________________________

> > From: hbbr <hbbr@>

> > To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public >

> > Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 8:11 PM

> > Subject: Re: Re: Experiment with this list

> >

> >

> >  

> > Very nice post, Randy.  I always appreciate what you have to say and the

skill with which you say it.

> > I don't consider a " key poster " - although his contributions here

along with those from the other ACT professionals are invaluable and much

appreciated.  This is a public list, so the key posters are " the public. "

 Those of us who have been " doing " ACT for awhile, however imperfectly, those

of us who are novices, those of us who can't seem to get the hang of it, those

of use who are suffering and struggling - those of us who are brave enough to

put our stuff out there, especially the deeply painful and ugly stuff. We are

the ACT key posters; we are its heroes.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Oh dear, thanks for this generous and interesting reply. Lots to chew on here. Yes..and yet!Kind regards,terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 4:28 PM Subject: Re: Experiment with this list

> Do you mind sharing a bit more about what you sense is so helpful

> and powerful in your therapy for you?

That's a good question. Since I know very little and can explain it

even less, even to myself, my answer must be inadequate; but here goes

anyway.

Mostly it's what I already alluded to: A great ACT exercise in a book

or a great post by Steve can be just what a person needs . . .

IF that person is at exactly the right point to benefit. But it is not

an interactive process. So many of us can do no more than say "Wow,

fantastic post," and feel inspired. We aren't at the precise point,

with enough resources and enough radical social support, to convert

that inspiration into meaningful and sustained action. And our own

personal word machine, the one we have known and trusted since birth,

is hell-bent on numbing us back into make-believe land. There is no

one there to say "Uh . . . that big cathode ray tube in your head . . .

don't look now, but it just flicked on again."

Of course, the ACT books and this list are WAY better than nothing.

WAY WAY better. I am grateful they exist. And I think many people,

not just in this list but in the world, have had their lives changed

by one ACT book or another.

And yet.

A therapist, if well trained in ACT and maybe other disciplines such

as FAP (Functional Analytic Psychotherapy) can listen to me and play

back what I am saying to me in terms of how my words are functioning.

Or can interrupt when interrupting seems useful. Or model compassion.

Or point out in real time how I am responding to an aversive stimulus.

Etc., etc. I haven't met the book yet that can do that.

One of my big discoveries with my therapist - which again, I wrote

about just recently - is the degree to which my everyday thoughts are

often deeply cruel and punishing even as they seem utterly plausible.

Now, I can read a book about this phenomenon . . . or a post about it

.. . . and I have. Sort of. But not quite. And reading about this sort

of thing is not as powerful as having someone point it out in real

time and then, in the weeks following the therapy session, practicing

each day how to hear this particular mental tone of voice myself.

And this kind of simple discrimination is just the beginning. One of

my first baby steps. And yet not a baby step, for it is something to

practice the rest of my life. Along with other baby steps I also hope

to learn and keep practicing.

I debated whether even to come back to this list since I am a babe in

the woods. But the experience of finally, for the first time, hearing

the cruel voice in my head for WHAT IT WAS and learning I could be

KIND to it rather than push it away as BAD was huge for me.

So I thought maybe I could mention that here & it might be helpful to

someone.

Another thing I want to mention is that our feelings don't always have

to rule our behavior, despite the many, many messages from people on

the list asserting that they are captive to how they feel. I know that

attitude well and sometimes am still "captive" in exactly that way.

And yet.

I have been dog tired these past few weeks thanks to sleep problems

(apnea and restless legs) and yet have worked hard, long days doing

what was important to me. I have done things I used to say "no" to

"because I'm too tired" or for some other "reason." I have become

more flexible in ways I swore I never would.

And I have been struck hard by how little I know.

There are folks on this list who are drowning in plain sight. I can't

do anything to help them because the life preservers I try and toss to

them are made of words, and it is words that are pulling these folks

under the water to begin with.

Words may get me too, suck me under the water. It could happen to any

of us.

And yet.

- R.

[Guest guest]

Randy,

Welcome back!

I always look forward to reading your posts. As someone who loves writing

(fiction mainly), I admire your clear, lively writing style, and way you combine

the personal with the insights you've gained through your extensive reading. You

inspire me to do better with my posts and my writing in general.

Cheers,

Stan

>

> > Do you mind sharing a bit more about what you sense is so helpful

> > and powerful in your therapy for you?

>

> That's a good question. Since I know very little and can explain it

> even less, even to myself, my answer must be inadequate; but here goes

> anyway.

>

> Mostly it's what I already alluded to: A great ACT exercise in a book

> or a great post by Steve can be just what a person needs . . .

> IF that person is at exactly the right point to benefit. But it is not

> an interactive process. So many of us can do no more than say " Wow,

> fantastic post, " and feel inspired. We aren't at the precise point,

> with enough resources and enough radical social support, to convert

> that inspiration into meaningful and sustained action. And our own

> personal word machine, the one we have known and trusted since birth,

> is hell-bent on numbing us back into make-believe land. There is no

> one there to say " Uh . . . that big cathode ray tube in your head . . .

> don't look now, but it just flicked on again. "

>

> Of course, the ACT books and this list are WAY better than nothing.

> WAY WAY better. I am grateful they exist. And I think many people,

> not just in this list but in the world, have had their lives changed

> by one ACT book or another.

>

> And yet.

>

> A therapist, if well trained in ACT and maybe other disciplines such

> as FAP (Functional Analytic Psychotherapy) can listen to me and play

> back what I am saying to me in terms of how my words are functioning.

> Or can interrupt when interrupting seems useful. Or model compassion.

> Or point out in real time how I am responding to an aversive stimulus.

> Etc., etc. I haven't met the book yet that can do that.

>

> One of my big discoveries with my therapist - which again, I wrote

> about just recently - is the degree to which my everyday thoughts are

> often deeply cruel and punishing even as they seem utterly plausible.

> Now, I can read a book about this phenomenon . . . or a post about it

> . . . and I have. Sort of. But not quite. And reading about this sort

> of thing is not as powerful as having someone point it out in real

> time and then, in the weeks following the therapy session, practicing

> each day how to hear this particular mental tone of voice myself.

>

> And this kind of simple discrimination is just the beginning. One of

> my first baby steps. And yet not a baby step, for it is something to

> practice the rest of my life. Along with other baby steps I also hope

> to learn and keep practicing.

>

> I debated whether even to come back to this list since I am a babe in

> the woods. But the experience of finally, for the first time, hearing

> the cruel voice in my head for WHAT IT WAS and learning I could be

> KIND to it rather than push it away as BAD was huge for me.

>

> So I thought maybe I could mention that here & it might be helpful to

> someone.

>

> Another thing I want to mention is that our feelings don't always have

> to rule our behavior, despite the many, many messages from people on

> the list asserting that they are captive to how they feel. I know that

> attitude well and sometimes am still " captive " in exactly that way.

>

> And yet.

>

> I have been dog tired these past few weeks thanks to sleep problems

> (apnea and restless legs) and yet have worked hard, long days doing

> what was important to me. I have done things I used to say " no " to

> " because I'm too tired " or for some other " reason. " I have become

> more flexible in ways I swore I never would.

>

> And I have been struck hard by how little I know.

>

> There are folks on this list who are drowning in plain sight. I can't

> do anything to help them because the life preservers I try and toss to

> them are made of words, and it is words that are pulling these folks

> under the water to begin with.

>

> Words may get me too, suck me under the water. It could happen to any

> of us.

>

> And yet.

>

> - R.

>

[Guest guest]

You know I am someone who tends to come and go on the list but I have learned

and empathized with everyone who posts. I am always glad to see some of the same

folks sharing themselves. I don't feel like the list is just dominated by a few,

I learn by reading even when I don't care to add a post myself, but i always

know the option is there for me when I want to share. I find it to be a unique,

eclectic, caring group of people trying to add value to their lives everyday!!!!

> >

> > A lot of the posts I have seen have really just been about

> > thoughts (and negatives ones at that) turned into writing and a

> > whole lot of chains and hooks clamped around them to make damn

> > sure that they stick around and keep the writers " stuck. " I

> > screen the posts, and seek out key people, being one of

> > them, and I am amazed at how many times he has hit the nail on

> > the head (as you would expect) but subsequent posts from posters

> > demonstrate that they either don't get it or don't really want to

> > get it.

>

> Hi Bronwyn -

>

> I find the list noisy too. But as for people " not wanting to get " the

> insights that Steve and other key posters have to offer - I don't think

> that's it at all. I just think ACT is tricky, tricky stuff. And we get

> caught in our own loops because we're human and loops are what we know.

>

> ACT researchers are trying to make ACT clearer. Polk has invented

> a simple model called the Matrix that is so powerful many therapists are

> now using it. And Russ is pushing hard for non-mystical,

> non-geeky language in all his books. And yet the Matrix can easily seem

> a gimmick if not brought to life by someone knowledgable, and the

> best of Russ's books is still a book. A book can't see when a human

> being is stuck and it can't vary its presentation to tease open that

> particular kind of stuckness.

>

> In my case, I've been reading and trying out ACT workbooks since 2005

> and although I very quickly acquired some remarkable (for me)

> flexibility early on for certain social contexts, it has taken me many

> years to move beyond that initial toehold and venture into more

> difficult contexts. With the help of a very good therapist this past

> spring, I've learned more in six months than I learned in the six

> previous years. Books were a great start and this list was a big help. A

> good therapist is more flexible than a book and more granular than this

> list, but way more expensive. Catch 22, yeah - another subject, that.

>

> Why is ACT so hard to learn for some of us? I think it is because

> conventional verbal behavior (what has called " living in

> the 'about' world " is (a) not just useful but essential most of the

> time; ( drilled into us from birth until we often don't known we are

> practicing it even though we do our best on this list to bring it into

> the light and talk about it; and © socially rewarded on both sides of

> usual conversations.

>

> Plus (d) we are human and that is OK too. Well, " OK " is too small a word

> to mean what I mean. We are human and it is everything.

>

> Hence all the noodling around we do on this list, trying to grasp what

> is so damn simple we can't grasp it with words. Like trying to pick up a

> watermelon with chopsticks. Yeah, it does get noisy. But follow the list

> for enough months & years and you can see amazing changes in people

> despite the noise.

>

> Beyond that, the list is noisy for a different reason: it's a catchall

> for anyone interested in anything even remotely bearing on ACT - or not.

> And actually, I'd say about half the list traffic falls into the " not "

> category. People come here to socialize, get sympathy, get support,

> exchange stories of wonder or woe, or argue with a particular person

> they love to argue with. In that respect the list is as human as a

> street corner or the neighborhood bar.

>

> I wouldn't mind seeing the list split into three related lists, all

> accessible from the same main page on Yahoo: A list for ACT questions; a

> list for questions or comments about other aspects of psychology,

> psychopharmacology, finding a therapist, etc.; and finally, a social

> list for those who have made friends here and want to have conversations

> apart from the main list. I belong to other forums (e.g. a very good

> forum on sleep apnea) that do it this way & it seems to work.

>

> On the other hand it might be a big management chore for the ACT folks

> running the list to try & set something like this up. Anyway this week

> they are off at WorldCon (the annual ACT convention) inventing the

> future, so all this will have to wait.

>

> Hope I wasn't too noisy!

>

> - Randy

>

> P.S. Forgive me - this ought to go in the third list! - but you have a

> lovely name, one I rarely come across. I first encountered it in a

> luminous novel by the writer O', set in Wales, and have

> never forgotten it.

>

[Guest guest]

I have received many benefits from this list.  Like the time one member called out another member by letting her know the only time she speaks of her death wish is when she is drinking.  That one hit home.  I never forgot it.  This post I just read and fell in love with from Randy speaks volumes (even though they are only words).  

Yes, there are all kinds of folks on here just like in the world.  Some need all the details to be perfect in order to feel comfortable while for some it's the idea, or the bigger picture that is all that is important.  When they come up against each other we need to wade through their bickering but so what?  They are just doing what they do.  They are perfect.  They are part of our work.  The " they " I refer to are your particular annoyances.   " They " are different posters for different members.

Hate to see you go Randy.  I have always enjoyed your posts.   For your insomnia and RLS may I suggest Brainwave Optimization?  I did it for a poor memory and so many other things got better in my life.  Things like tolerance (especially while driving here in Boston), restful sleep, RLS, quiet mind.  I was so impressed I opened my own office.  There are offices in 19 countries.  Check out www.brainstatetech.com for more info and locations.

Best,Dee  

[Guest guest]

One of the reasons I asked is because I agree the list can't be a sole replacement for other ways of growing, such as face to face contact with a compassionate therapist who also has a decent enough grasp on basic ACT tenets and processes. IMO,there is nothing so intimate and immediate as having that relationship. With regard to the posts from , I often print them out and carry them around with me. I read them in the morning and/or at night as a way to get grounded. It's helped tremendously when I do that, brings them alive. I try now to actively engage the implicit and explicit questions and exercises from the posts. To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 5:07 PM Subject: Re: Re: Experiment with this list

Oh dear, thanks for this generous and interesting reply. Lots to chew on here. Yes..and yet!Kind regards,terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 4:28 PM Subject: Re: Experiment with this list

> Do you mind sharing a bit more about what you sense is so helpful

> and powerful in your therapy for you?

That's a good question. Since I know very little and can explain it

even less, even to myself, my answer must be inadequate; but here goes

anyway.

Mostly it's what I already alluded to: A great ACT exercise in a book

or a great post by Steve can be just what a person needs . . .

IF that person is at exactly the right point to benefit. But it is not

an interactive process. So many of us can do no more than say "Wow,

fantastic post," and feel inspired. We aren't at the precise point,

with enough resources and enough radical social support, to convert

that inspiration into meaningful and sustained action. And our own

personal word machine, the one we have known and trusted since birth,

is hell-bent on numbing us back into make-believe land. There is no

one there to say "Uh . . . that big cathode ray tube in your head . . .

don't look now, but it just flicked on again."

Of course, the ACT books and this list are WAY better than nothing.

WAY WAY better. I am grateful they exist. And I think many people,

not just in this list but in the world, have had their lives changed

by one ACT book or another.

And yet.

A therapist, if well trained in ACT and maybe other disciplines such

as FAP (Functional Analytic Psychotherapy) can listen to me and play

back what I am saying to me in terms of how my words are functioning.

Or can interrupt when interrupting seems useful. Or model compassion.

Or point out in real time how I am responding to an aversive stimulus.

Etc., etc. I haven't met the book yet that can do that.

One of my big discoveries with my therapist - which again, I wrote

about just recently - is the degree to which my everyday thoughts are

often deeply cruel and punishing even as they seem utterly plausible.

Now, I can read a book about this phenomenon . . . or a post about it

.. . . and I have. Sort of. But not quite. And reading about this sort

of thing is not as powerful as having someone point it out in real

time and then, in the weeks following the therapy session, practicing

each day how to hear this particular mental tone of voice myself.

And this kind of simple discrimination is just the beginning. One of

my first baby steps. And yet not a baby step, for it is something to

practice the rest of my life. Along with other baby steps I also hope

to learn and keep practicing.

I debated whether even to come back to this list since I am a babe in

the woods. But the experience of finally, for the first time, hearing

the cruel voice in my head for WHAT IT WAS and learning I could be

KIND to it rather than push it away as BAD was huge for me.

So I thought maybe I could mention that here & it might be helpful to

someone.

Another thing I want to mention is that our feelings don't always have

to rule our behavior, despite the many, many messages from people on

the list asserting that they are captive to how they feel. I know that

attitude well and sometimes am still "captive" in exactly that way.

And yet.

I have been dog tired these past few weeks thanks to sleep problems

(apnea and restless legs) and yet have worked hard, long days doing

what was important to me. I have done things I used to say "no" to

"because I'm too tired" or for some other "reason." I have become

more flexible in ways I swore I never would.

And I have been struck hard by how little I know.

There are folks on this list who are drowning in plain sight. I can't

do anything to help them because the life preservers I try and toss to

them are made of words, and it is words that are pulling these folks

under the water to begin with.

Words may get me too, suck me under the water. It could happen to any

of us.

And yet.

- R.

[Guest guest]

I was very interested in the comments about Flow and "absorbing interest". I know I have a severe problem in the area. Nothing gets me into Flow and I have no absorbing interest. I have plenty of things I have an interest in and a decent list of hobbies. But nothing absorbs me or takes my mind off my anxiety and depression problem. How I feel, which is fatigued and nervous, is the only thing that really grabs my attention. I have tried just doing things and hoping interest will take over but it rarely happens. I am so admiring of people who have an interest that absorbs them, no matter what it is. I'm baffled by the fact that I can't achieve this. I think part of it is that I'm always evaluating myself. Maybe it's something physical but I have not been able to identify what it is.This list has been a great resource and comfort for me, even if there is some wallowing. It's helpful for me to know that others have the same kinds of feelings. I am trying my best to carry on doing things. My dissatisfaction has been that I'm pretty good at doing what I have to do to keep my life going. I've done very poorly in doing what I'd like to do to have the life I want. One thing I have been doing is exercising a lot more, mostly be taking our dog on long walks but also some cycling. But I've been disappointed that so far this has had little impact on my mood, although it does take up some time with a valued activity of exercise.The idea of being so involved in an activity that time and the outside world slips away sounds wonderful. It seems to come naturally to many but eludes me completely. Sometimes I think it's a major part of my problem. The other part is when I have things to do, I feel easily overwhelmed. I'm grateful that I don't act on those feelings and am able to come through when I have to.Any thoughts about how to achieve Flow or find an absorbing interest would be very helpful to me. I'm looking at another day that seems pretty empty, with nothing worth doing and nothing I really have to do.Thanks,Bruce Hi all,This is my observation - I haven't really done a good control experiment on this. But, I think this list has been really bad for me. A lot of it may be that it's a group of depressed anxious or embittered people. And that might not be a good thing. Also it may be that the list is dominated by just a few people and some of these people have an axe to grind. Or they feel anger and embitterment and what to spread that anger and embitterment to others. I would be very curious to see a control study of the efficacy of participating in this list.In some ways I'm puzzled. Studies have shown efficacy of ACT and ACT is one of the evidence based therapies. So it may be that ACT would be a big help too me if I just stick to the other ACT resources and exclude this list. And I will now experiment with that. My observation now is that REBT for me is much more efficacious. Now there might be some things I can take from ACT to improve REBT. The diffusion. The mindfulness too. But I think I have to find better mindful exercises for me. I'm very ADHD and the sitting and breathing exercises are not all that good for me. Vigorous exercise helps me become more mindful. I do yoga but I prefer the more vigorous flow types than the types that hold ananas. When I go about my business I practice mindfulness. For example while driving. Most people are not mindful when driving and race up to stop at traffic lights instead of trying to go with flow and maybe time the lights. I'm curious about the studies and if there is anything about what kind of people benefit from ACT and from CBT and REBT. Maybe there something about me where REBT works better.And I found positive psychology to be a wonderful resource. It is such a big and active area in psychology right now. Everything from the flow work by Csikszentmihaly to Selgiman's Posttraumatic growth to Fredrickson's Broaden-and-Build, is all such good stuff. One thing about flow. Albert Ellis often talked about having an absorbing interest. Csikszentmihaly work on flow is very similar to Ellis idea of absorbing interest. I have always thought of ACT's values and committed actions as similar to this. But now I think there are some differences. The flow or absorbing interest is really something outside of yourself. It may reflect your values, but I think being absorbed in something that is more outside of yourself may give you something different than the ACT values and committed actions. When I read you guys' stuff on this, it just seems to self-absorbed or something and sometimes creepy. For this flow stuff, think more outside of yourself - maybe think something more altruistic - a contribution coming from you to the world outside of yourself. Check out Csikszentmihayly's works on flow. But I'm really grateful to the professionals on this list and will experiment with ACT resources excluding this list and I love REBT and positive psychology and so of course do a lot with that. I'll drop back in next year sometime to see how this list is going and see if the same people still dominate the list or if it changes. Cheers!

[Guest guest]

i can relate to this. I have the same feelings of slow burn and lack of passion?

i think. One of my biggie problems is that i am in a job which i dont sense any

passion for any more, but i do so to keep putting bread on the table for my

family.

I know the usual answers is not to take your work so seriously, or try to

include other meaningful activities into your life, ie: the investment banker by

week turned eco tourist on weekends syndrome, but that doesnt seem to be an easy

answer for me.

I do have the time to do other stuff, and so i do so, but on a day to day basis,

my days isnt filled enough " passionate " activities as i would like.

And so i get this feeling of being stuck, maybe i should enroll in some group

therapy or something, i m sure lotsa of other people are in the same boat.

Anyways, although this list does get noisy from time to time, i take the good w

the bad, and that is there is enough meaningful info on this list from other

people simply sharing their problems, that makes me wanna keep staying on.

Tom

>

> > Hi all,

> >

> > This is my observation - I haven't really done a good control

> > experiment on this.

> >

> > But, I think this list has been really bad for me. A lot of it may

> > be that it's a group of depressed anxious or embittered people. And

> > that might not be a good thing. Also it may be that the list is

> > dominated by just a few people and some of these people have an axe

> > to grind. Or they feel anger and embitterment and what to spread

> > that anger and embitterment to others.

> >

> > I would be very curious to see a control study of the efficacy of

> > participating in this list.

> >

> > In some ways I'm puzzled. Studies have shown efficacy of ACT and

> > ACT is one of the evidence based therapies. So it may be that ACT

> > would be a big help too me if I just stick to the other ACT

> > resources and exclude this list. And I will now experiment with that.

> >

> > My observation now is that REBT for me is much more efficacious.

> > Now there might be some things I can take from ACT to improve REBT.

> > The diffusion. The mindfulness too. But I think I have to find

> > better mindful exercises for me. I'm very ADHD and the sitting and

> > breathing exercises are not all that good for me. Vigorous exercise

> > helps me become more mindful. I do yoga but I prefer the more

> > vigorous flow types than the types that hold ananas. When I go

> > about my business I practice mindfulness. For example while

> > driving. Most people are not mindful when driving and race up to

> > stop at traffic lights instead of trying to go with flow and maybe

> > time the lights.

> >

> > I'm curious about the studies and if there is anything about what

> > kind of people benefit from ACT and from CBT and REBT. Maybe there

> > something about me where REBT works better.

> >

> > And I found positive psychology to be a wonderful resource. It is

> > such a big and active area in psychology right now. Everything from

> > the flow work by Csikszentmihaly to Selgiman's Posttraumatic growth

> > to Fredrickson's Broaden-and-Build, is all such good stuff.

> >

> > One thing about flow. Albert Ellis often talked about having an

> > absorbing interest. Csikszentmihaly work on flow is very similar to

> > Ellis idea of absorbing interest. I have always thought of ACT's

> > values and committed actions as similar to this. But now I think

> > there are some differences. The flow or absorbing interest is

> > really something outside of yourself. It may reflect your values,

> > but I think being absorbed in something that is more outside of

> > yourself may give you something different than the ACT values and

> > committed actions. When I read you guys' stuff on this, it just

> > seems to self-absorbed or something and sometimes creepy. For this

> > flow stuff, think more outside of yourself - maybe think something

> > more altruistic - a contribution coming from you to the world

> > outside of yourself. Check out Csikszentmihayly's works on flow.

> >

> > But I'm really grateful to the professionals on this list and will

> > experiment with ACT resources excluding this list and I love REBT

> > and positive psychology and so of course do a lot with that. I'll

> > drop back in next year sometime to see how this list is going and

> > see if the same people still dominate the list or if it changes.

> >

> > Cheers!

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Randy, re: "I debated whether even to come back to this list since I am a babe in

the woods. But the experience of finally, for the first time, hearing

the cruel voice in my head for WHAT IT WAS and learning I could be

KIND to it rather than push it away as BAD was huge for me."I'm confused. Maybe it's just a language glitch. How do you imagine this list not helpful for a "babe in the woods"? What does that have to do whether or not you participate here?And how is compassionately noticing, accepting your internal cruel voicea factor in whether or not you come back to this list? thanks,terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 4:28 PM Subject: Re: Experiment with this list

> Do you mind sharing a bit more about what you sense is so helpful

> and powerful in your therapy for you?

That's a good question. Since I know very little and can explain it

even less, even to myself, my answer must be inadequate; but here goes

anyway.

Mostly it's what I already alluded to: A great ACT exercise in a book

or a great post by Steve can be just what a person needs . . .

IF that person is at exactly the right point to benefit. But it is not

an interactive process. So many of us can do no more than say "Wow,

fantastic post," and feel inspired. We aren't at the precise point,

with enough resources and enough radical social support, to convert

that inspiration into meaningful and sustained action. And our own

personal word machine, the one we have known and trusted since birth,

is hell-bent on numbing us back into make-believe land. There is no

one there to say "Uh . . . that big cathode ray tube in your head . . .

don't look now, but it just flicked on again."

Of course, the ACT books and this list are WAY better than nothing.

WAY WAY better. I am grateful they exist. And I think many people,

not just in this list but in the world, have had their lives changed

by one ACT book or another.

And yet.

A therapist, if well trained in ACT and maybe other disciplines such

as FAP (Functional Analytic Psychotherapy) can listen to me and play

back what I am saying to me in terms of how my words are functioning.

Or can interrupt when interrupting seems useful. Or model compassion.

Or point out in real time how I am responding to an aversive stimulus.

Etc., etc. I haven't met the book yet that can do that.

One of my big discoveries with my therapist - which again, I wrote

about just recently - is the degree to which my everyday thoughts are

often deeply cruel and punishing even as they seem utterly plausible.

Now, I can read a book about this phenomenon . . . or a post about it

.. . . and I have. Sort of. But not quite. And reading about this sort

of thing is not as powerful as having someone point it out in real

time and then, in the weeks following the therapy session, practicing

each day how to hear this particular mental tone of voice myself.

And this kind of simple discrimination is just the beginning. One of

my first baby steps. And yet not a baby step, for it is something to

practice the rest of my life. Along with other baby steps I also hope

to learn and keep practicing.

I debated whether even to come back to this list since I am a babe in

the woods. But the experience of finally, for the first time, hearing

the cruel voice in my head for WHAT IT WAS and learning I could be

KIND to it rather than push it away as BAD was huge for me.

So I thought maybe I could mention that here & it might be helpful to

someone.

Another thing I want to mention is that our feelings don't always have

to rule our behavior, despite the many, many messages from people on

the list asserting that they are captive to how they feel. I know that

attitude well and sometimes am still "captive" in exactly that way.

And yet.

I have been dog tired these past few weeks thanks to sleep problems

(apnea and restless legs) and yet have worked hard, long days doing

what was important to me. I have done things I used to say "no" to

"because I'm too tired" or for some other "reason." I have become

more flexible in ways I swore I never would.

And I have been struck hard by how little I know.

There are folks on this list who are drowning in plain sight. I can't

do anything to help them because the life preservers I try and toss to

them are made of words, and it is words that are pulling these folks

under the water to begin with.

Words may get me too, suck me under the water. It could happen to any

of us.

And yet.

- R.

[Guest guest]

Like you, Bruce, I suffer from a lot of anxiety and I think that this

naturally disconnects you from things. When I was young I was very tense

and worried about things like exams, and that I was thick and no good,

and yet, I could be blissfully relaxed too as my body had no physical

tension in it at that point. I would lay on my bed at night and hear the

TV downstairs and drift off into total peace, or I could be on a bus and

be beautifully mesmerised by the sound of the engine purring away. At

work I would get mesmerised too as I started out in toolmaking which

fitted my perfectionism really well and I would became totally absorbed

for hours on end making everything absolutely perfect. Pure heaven at

the time!

Just a moment ago, despite great exhaustion and much physical pain, I

became completely absorbed in my guitar playing and it felt lovely, but

this is rare for me and it is only probably happening now as I am

becoming a bit better at playing the darn thing. Sadly though, it seems,

you can never become absorbed in anything if you try to make this happen

as absorbtion only comes, like sleep, without you knowing it.

I know how impatient you must feel, but ACT is not it just a therapy,

but a science that shows that some states of mind only occur when we

let go and allow things to be. If it wasn't for my passion for learning

the guitar and piano I think I would have gone into amateur dramatics

instead. Now that would be quite absorbing, I reckon, and completely

nerve racking along with it!

Kv

>

> > Hi all,

> >

> > This is my observation - I haven't really done a good control

> > experiment on this.

> >

> > But, I think this list has been really bad for me. A lot of it may

> > be that it's a group of depressed anxious or embittered people. And

> > that might not be a good thing. Also it may be that the list is

> > dominated by just a few people and some of these people have an axe

> > to grind. Or they feel anger and embitterment and what to spread

> > that anger and embitterment to others.

> >

> > I would be very curious to see a control study of the efficacy of

> > participating in this list.

> >

> > In some ways I'm puzzled. Studies have shown efficacy of ACT and

> > ACT is one of the evidence based therapies. So it may be that ACT

> > would be a big help too me if I just stick to the other ACT

> > resources and exclude this list. And I will now experiment with

that.

> >

> > My observation now is that REBT for me is much more efficacious.

> > Now there might be some things I can take from ACT to improve REBT.

> > The diffusion. The mindfulness too. But I think I have to find

> > better mindful exercises for me. I'm very ADHD and the sitting and

> > breathing exercises are not all that good for me. Vigorous exercise

> > helps me become more mindful. I do yoga but I prefer the more

> > vigorous flow types than the types that hold ananas. When I go

> > about my business I practice mindfulness. For example while

> > driving. Most people are not mindful when driving and race up to

> > stop at traffic lights instead of trying to go with flow and maybe

> > time the lights.

> >

> > I'm curious about the studies and if there is anything about what

> > kind of people benefit from ACT and from CBT and REBT. Maybe there

> > something about me where REBT works better.

> >

> > And I found positive psychology to be a wonderful resource. It is

> > such a big and active area in psychology right now. Everything from

> > the flow work by Csikszentmihaly to Selgiman's Posttraumatic growth

> > to Fredrickson's Broaden-and-Build, is all such good stuff.

> >

> > One thing about flow. Albert Ellis often talked about having an

> > absorbing interest. Csikszentmihaly work on flow is very similar to

> > Ellis idea of absorbing interest. I have always thought of ACT's

> > values and committed actions as similar to this. But now I think

> > there are some differences. The flow or absorbing interest is

> > really something outside of yourself. It may reflect your values,

> > but I think being absorbed in something that is more outside of

> > yourself may give you something different than the ACT values and

> > committed actions. When I read you guys' stuff on this, it just

> > seems to self-absorbed or something and sometimes creepy. For this

> > flow stuff, think more outside of yourself - maybe think something

> > more altruistic - a contribution coming from you to the world

> > outside of yourself. Check out Csikszentmihayly's works on flow.

> >

> > But I'm really grateful to the professionals on this list and will

> > experiment with ACT resources excluding this list and I love REBT

> > and positive psychology and so of course do a lot with that. I'll

> > drop back in next year sometime to see how this list is going and

> > see if the same people still dominate the list or if it changes.

> >

> > Cheers!

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Bruce

I felt really sad when I read your message and spent a bit of time reflecting

you how it made me feel and what you were saying. I deal daily with what you

feel and some days good some days not so good. So I thought I would try and

share what I do to deal with my mind on this matter to see if it can be of use

to you too.

Bruce I have broken down your message to show you your thoughts. I find doing

this with my thoughts really helps me to see what my mind is telling me. I do

this with my journaling and also any message I place onto this group. In

looking at my thoughts and feelings this way I can then detach a little...almost

step aside from them and start to really see which of the thoughts I am buying

into, which ones I am completely fused with. In most cases I can clearly see

from the thoughts when written like this why I am behaving and feeling and

thinking the way I am.

•I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought " Nothing gets me into Flow "

•I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought " I have no absorbing interest "

•I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought " Nothing absorbs me "

•I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought " Nothing takes my mind off my anxiety and

depression problem. "

•I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought " I feel fatigued and nervous "

•I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought " I have tried just doing things and

hoping interest will take over "

•I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought " it rarely happens. "

•I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought " I'm baffled "

•I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought " I can't achieve this. "

•I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought " I'm always evaluating myself "

•I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought " I am trying my best to carry on doing

things. "

•I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought " I'm pretty good at doing what I have to

do to keep my life going. "

•I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought " I've done very poorly in doing what I'd

like to do to have the life I want. "

•I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought " I've been disappointed "

•I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought " It seems to come naturally to many but

eludes me completely. "

•I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought " it's a major part of my problem "

•I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought " when I have things to do, I feel easily

overwhelmed. "

If I was having all of the above thoughts and believe me I have had in differing

periods of my life and still do from time to time. I would find it very

difficult also to get absorbed and lost in flow with a hobby/interest/passion.

I would have already convinced myself it would not be possible, so I would try

but that would be all I could do for my mind will have told me there is no

chance of me ever being or feeling like others.

There are a lot of really powerful thoughts in this mix and if you're buying

into any one of them then I can totally see why you are struggling to achieve

what you want for your life.

One of the thoughts that stood out for me was the one when you said " I'm always

evaluating myself " . Evaluation can be good or it can be bad, the question is

what are you evaluating yourself against, are your evaluation yourself in a self

critical way or with compassion and kindness. I would hazard a guess that you

are setting pretty high standards for yourself and therefore this leads to a lot

self critical analysis and evaluation. We all have a tendency to do this, I am

very much like that and I have to watch out for it constantly.

I too admire people who have this absorbing passion for their interests. I

would love to be like that all the time, to completely distract me. But that's

not real, I have experienced flow with individual hobbies, but not all the time

it's not always constant. I have talked myself out of hobbies I was talented at

because I felt this lack of flow meant I wasn't that interested. When in actual

fact it was a mood dip, fatigue, pain, depression, stress or anxiety and any

other overwhelming emotions or life event that can disrupt the balance in us

humans. It's only many years later and with a bit more knowledge and

understanding that I have realised we don't and won't always feel 100% when

doing something we are interested in. In fact we can have quite a few 20% days

and that's okay too. I do photography and there isn't a month that doesn't go

by that I question this hobby, this year I was going to sell everything because

I was so fed up, overwhelmed and restricted by CPS every time I attempted to do

photography. But when I get a good photo, which isn't all the time and I get

absorbed in the post production of it and see it come to life I think okay all

those really bad 20% days were worth that one good photo and I am not ready to

give up on it. I take this approach with every one of my interests...if I

didn't do that I wouldn't do any of them. It's okay not to be absorbed all the

time.

I can be extremely critical of my hobbies and talents and if I wasn't careful I

could easily think myself out of all of them, but what good would that do me.

So I have had to work really hard this year in listening mindfully to what my

mind has being saying because I don't want to stop just because it wants me to.

I only want to stop because I choose to, as yet I still choose to do

photography, as and when I can within the limits of my body.

Take a good look at your thoughts Bruce, identify the ones you're really buying

into and the ones you're truly fused with and then do some diffusion work on

them. That would be a good first step to approaching this present dilemma. The

next would be finding a way to accept that you have these thoughts and feelings,

but to then let them go and still proceed in your valued direction and achieve

what you want in your life. Definitely not easy its hard work but its

achievable. The main thing I would suggest is to approach this gently,

patiently and with as much self kindness and self compassion you can muster

within you.

Remember this list of thoughts above is not you, there just thoughts, you are

far greater than all of them.

With loving kindness

Jo

>

> > Hi all,

> >

> > This is my observation - I haven't really done a good control

> > experiment on this.

> >

> > But, I think this list has been really bad for me. A lot of it may

> > be that it's a group of depressed anxious or embittered people. And

> > that might not be a good thing. Also it may be that the list is

> > dominated by just a few people and some of these people have an axe

> > to grind. Or they feel anger and embitterment and what to spread

> > that anger and embitterment to others.

> >

> > I would be very curious to see a control study of the efficacy of

> > participating in this list.

> >

> > In some ways I'm puzzled. Studies have shown efficacy of ACT and

> > ACT is one of the evidence based therapies. So it may be that ACT

> > would be a big help too me if I just stick to the other ACT

> > resources and exclude this list. And I will now experiment with that.

> >

> > My observation now is that REBT for me is much more efficacious.

> > Now there might be some things I can take from ACT to improve REBT.

> > The diffusion. The mindfulness too. But I think I have to find

> > better mindful exercises for me. I'm very ADHD and the sitting and

> > breathing exercises are not all that good for me. Vigorous exercise

> > helps me become more mindful. I do yoga but I prefer the more

> > vigorous flow types than the types that hold ananas. When I go

> > about my business I practice mindfulness. For example while

> > driving. Most people are not mindful when driving and race up to

> > stop at traffic lights instead of trying to go with flow and maybe

> > time the lights.

> >

> > I'm curious about the studies and if there is anything about what

> > kind of people benefit from ACT and from CBT and REBT. Maybe there

> > something about me where REBT works better.

> >

> > And I found positive psychology to be a wonderful resource. It is

> > such a big and active area in psychology right now. Everything from

> > the flow work by Csikszentmihaly to Selgiman's Posttraumatic growth

> > to Fredrickson's Broaden-and-Build, is all such good stuff.

> >

> > One thing about flow. Albert Ellis often talked about having an

> > absorbing interest. Csikszentmihaly work on flow is very similar to

> > Ellis idea of absorbing interest. I have always thought of ACT's

> > values and committed actions as similar to this. But now I think

> > there are some differences. The flow or absorbing interest is

> > really something outside of yourself. It may reflect your values,

> > but I think being absorbed in something that is more outside of

> > yourself may give you something different than the ACT values and

> > committed actions. When I read you guys' stuff on this, it just

> > seems to self-absorbed or something and sometimes creepy. For this

> > flow stuff, think more outside of yourself - maybe think something

> > more altruistic - a contribution coming from you to the world

> > outside of yourself. Check out Csikszentmihayly's works on flow.

> >

> > But I'm really grateful to the professionals on this list and will

> > experiment with ACT resources excluding this list and I love REBT

> > and positive psychology and so of course do a lot with that. I'll

> > drop back in next year sometime to see how this list is going and

> > see if the same people still dominate the list or if it changes.

> >

> > Cheers!

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you so much for this, Jo. I really appreciate it your listening to what I was saying. I'm trying to be more mindful of diffusion this morning. Today I don't have any particular thoughts that are making me uncomfortable but I feel terrible fear nonetheless. So I'm trying to notice the thoughts that drift in and remember that they're only thoughts. And especially, it's not what I think, it's what I do. So I will do the best I can.I really wish that understanding my thoughts would lead to feeling better but that doesn't seem to happen for me. I am trying to accept that and move forward with some valued action, which today is painting a fence and entertaining some houseguests. A lot to do for a Saturday for me so that's a good thing. I would like to have a good day someday soon but lately all my days have been kind of the same. Waking up with anxiety kind of sets a bad tone for every day.Thank you again. I'm thankful that there are those out there who can relate to what I'm feeling, which is incomprehensible to me.Bruce Hi Bruce I felt really sad when I read your message and spent a bit of time reflecting you how it made me feel and what you were saying. I deal daily with what you feel and some days good some days not so good. So I thought I would try and share what I do to deal with my mind on this matter to see if it can be of use to you too. Bruce I have broken down your message to show you your thoughts. I find doing this with my thoughts really helps me to see what my mind is telling me. I do this with my journaling and also any message I place onto this group. In looking at my thoughts and feelings this way I can then detach a little...almost step aside from them and start to really see which of the thoughts I am buying into, which ones I am completely fused with. In most cases I can clearly see from the thoughts when written like this why I am behaving and feeling and thinking the way I am. •I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "Nothing gets me into Flow" •I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "I have no absorbing interest" •I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "Nothing absorbs me" •I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "Nothing takes my mind off my anxiety and depression problem." •I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "I feel fatigued and nervous" •I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "I have tried just doing things and hoping interest will take over" •I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "it rarely happens." •I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "I'm baffled" •I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "I can't achieve this." •I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "I'm always evaluating myself" •I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "I am trying my best to carry on doing things." •I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "I'm pretty good at doing what I have to do to keep my life going." •I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "I've done very poorly in doing what I'd like to do to have the life I want." •I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "I've been disappointed" •I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "It seems to come naturally to many but eludes me completely." •I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "it's a major part of my problem" •I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "when I have things to do, I feel easily overwhelmed." If I was having all of the above thoughts and believe me I have had in differing periods of my life and still do from time to time. I would find it very difficult also to get absorbed and lost in flow with a hobby/interest/passion. I would have already convinced myself it would not be possible, so I would try but that would be all I could do for my mind will have told me there is no chance of me ever being or feeling like others. There are a lot of really powerful thoughts in this mix and if you're buying into any one of them then I can totally see why you are struggling to achieve what you want for your life. One of the thoughts that stood out for me was the one when you said "I'm always evaluating myself". Evaluation can be good or it can be bad, the question is what are you evaluating yourself against, are your evaluation yourself in a self critical way or with compassion and kindness. I would hazard a guess that you are setting pretty high standards for yourself and therefore this leads to a lot self critical analysis and evaluation. We all have a tendency to do this, I am very much like that and I have to watch out for it constantly. I too admire people who have this absorbing passion for their interests. I would love to be like that all the time, to completely distract me. But that's not real, I have experienced flow with individual hobbies, but not all the time it's not always constant. I have talked myself out of hobbies I was talented at because I felt this lack of flow meant I wasn't that interested. When in actual fact it was a mood dip, fatigue, pain, depression, stress or anxiety and any other overwhelming emotions or life event that can disrupt the balance in us humans. It's only many years later and with a bit more knowledge and understanding that I have realised we don't and won't always feel 100% when doing something we are interested in. In fact we can have quite a few 20% days and that's okay too. I do photography and there isn't a month that doesn't go by that I question this hobby, this year I was going to sell everything because I was so fed up, overwhelmed and restricted by CPS every time I attempted to do photography. But when I get a good photo, which isn't all the time and I get absorbed in the post production of it and see it come to life I think okay all those really bad 20% days were worth that one good photo and I am not ready to give up on it. I take this approach with every one of my interests...if I didn't do that I wouldn't do any of them. It's okay not to be absorbed all the time. I can be extremely critical of my hobbies and talents and if I wasn't careful I could easily think myself out of all of them, but what good would that do me. So I have had to work really hard this year in listening mindfully to what my mind has being saying because I don't want to stop just because it wants me to. I only want to stop because I choose to, as yet I still choose to do photography, as and when I can within the limits of my body. Take a good look at your thoughts Bruce, identify the ones you're really buying into and the ones you're truly fused with and then do some diffusion work on them. That would be a good first step to approaching this present dilemma. The next would be finding a way to accept that you have these thoughts and feelings, but to then let them go and still proceed in your valued direction and achieve what you want in your life. Definitely not easy its hard work but its achievable. The main thing I would suggest is to approach this gently, patiently and with as much self kindness and self compassion you can muster within you. Remember this list of thoughts above is not you, there just thoughts, you are far greater than all of them. With loving kindness Jo > > > Hi all, > > > > This is my observation - I haven't really done a good control > > experiment on this. > > > > But, I think this list has been really bad for me. A lot of it may > > be that it's a group of depressed anxious or embittered people. And > > that might not be a good thing. Also it may be that the list is > > dominated by just a few people and some of these people have an axe > > to grind. Or they feel anger and embitterment and what to spread > > that anger and embitterment to others. > > > > I would be very curious to see a control study of the efficacy of > > participating in this list. > > > > In some ways I'm puzzled. Studies have shown efficacy of ACT and > > ACT is one of the evidence based therapies. So it may be that ACT > > would be a big help too me if I just stick to the other ACT > > resources and exclude this list. And I will now experiment with that. > > > > My observation now is that REBT for me is much more efficacious. > > Now there might be some things I can take from ACT to improve REBT. > > The diffusion. The mindfulness too. But I think I have to find > > better mindful exercises for me. I'm very ADHD and the sitting and > > breathing exercises are not all that good for me. Vigorous exercise > > helps me become more mindful. I do yoga but I prefer the more > > vigorous flow types than the types that hold ananas. When I go > > about my business I practice mindfulness. For example while > > driving. Most people are not mindful when driving and race up to > > stop at traffic lights instead of trying to go with flow and maybe > > time the lights. > > > > I'm curious about the studies and if there is anything about what > > kind of people benefit from ACT and from CBT and REBT. Maybe there > > something about me where REBT works better. > > > > And I found positive psychology to be a wonderful resource. It is > > such a big and active area in psychology right now. Everything from > > the flow work by Csikszentmihaly to Selgiman's Posttraumatic growth > > to Fredrickson's Broaden-and-Build, is all such good stuff. > > > > One thing about flow. Albert Ellis often talked about having an > > absorbing interest. Csikszentmihaly work on flow is very similar to > > Ellis idea of absorbing interest. I have always thought of ACT's > > values and committed actions as similar to this. But now I think > > there are some differences. The flow or absorbing interest is > > really something outside of yourself. It may reflect your values, > > but I think being absorbed in something that is more outside of > > yourself may give you something different than the ACT values and > > committed actions. When I read you guys' stuff on this, it just > > seems to self-absorbed or something and sometimes creepy. For this > > flow stuff, think more outside of yourself - maybe think something > > more altruistic - a contribution coming from you to the world > > outside of yourself. Check out Csikszentmihayly's works on flow. > > > > But I'm really grateful to the professionals on this list and will > > experiment with ACT resources excluding this list and I love REBT > > and positive psychology and so of course do a lot with that. I'll > > drop back in next year sometime to see how this list is going and > > see if the same people still dominate the list or if it changes. > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

"Waking up with anxiety kind of sets a bad tone for every day."Who says? To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2012 12:58:13 PMSubject: Re: Re: Experiment with this list

Thank you so much for this, Jo. I really appreciate it your listening to what I was saying. I'm trying to be more mindful of diffusion this morning. Today I don't have any particular thoughts that are making me uncomfortable but I feel terrible fear nonetheless. So I'm trying to notice the thoughts that drift in and remember that they're only thoughts. And especially, it's not what I think, it's what I do. So I will do the best I can.I really wish that understanding my thoughts would lead to feeling better but that doesn't seem to happen for me. I am trying to accept that and move forward with some valued action, which today is painting a fence and entertaining some houseguests. A lot to do for a Saturday for me so that's a good thing. I would like to have a good day someday soon but lately all my days have been kind of the same. Waking up with anxiety kind of sets a bad tone for every day.Thank you again. I'm thankful that there are those out there who can relate to what I'm feeling, which is incomprehensible to me.Bruce Hi Bruce I felt really sad when I read your message and spent a bit of time reflecting you how it made me feel and what you were saying. I deal daily with what you feel and some days good some days not so good. So I thought I would try and share what I do to deal with my mind on this matter to see if it can be of use to you too. Bruce I have broken down your message to show you your thoughts. I find doing this with my thoughts really helps me to see what my mind is telling me. I do this with my journaling and also any message I place onto this group. In looking at my thoughts and feelings this way I can then detach a little...almost step aside from them and start to really see which of the thoughts I am buying into, which ones I am completely fused with. In most cases I can clearly see from the thoughts when written like this why I am behaving and feeling and thinking the way I am. •I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "Nothing gets me into Flow" •I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "I have no absorbing interest" •I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "Nothing absorbs me" •I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "Nothing takes my mind off my anxiety and depression problem." •I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "I feel fatigued and nervous" •I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "I have tried just doing things and hoping interest will take over" •I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "it rarely happens." •I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "I'm baffled" •I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "I can't achieve this." •I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "I'm always evaluating myself" •I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "I am trying my best to carry on doing things." •I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "I'm pretty good at doing what I have to do to keep my life going." •I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "I've done very poorly in doing what I'd like to do to have the life I want." •I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "I've been disappointed" •I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "It seems to come naturally to many but eludes me completely." •I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "it's a major part of my problem" •I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "when I have things to do, I feel easily overwhelmed." If I was having all of the above thoughts and believe me I have had in differing periods of my life and still do from time to time. I would find it very difficult also to get absorbed and lost in flow with a hobby/interest/passion. I would have already convinced myself it would not be possible, so I would try but that would be all I could do for my mind will have told me there is no chance of me ever being or feeling like others. There are a lot of really powerful thoughts in this mix and if you're buying into any one of them then I can totally see why you are struggling to achieve what you want for your life. One of the thoughts that stood out for me was the one when you said "I'm always evaluating myself". Evaluation can be good or it can be bad, the question is what are you evaluating yourself against, are your evaluation yourself in a self critical way or with compassion and kindness. I would hazard a guess that you are setting pretty high standards for yourself and therefore this leads to a lot self critical analysis and evaluation. We all have a tendency to do this, I am very much like that and I have to watch out for it constantly. I too admire people who have this absorbing passion for their interests. I would love to be like that all the time, to completely distract me. But that's not real, I have experienced flow with individual hobbies, but not all the time it's not always constant. I have talked myself out of hobbies I was talented at because I felt this lack of flow meant I wasn't that interested. When in actual fact it was a mood dip, fatigue, pain, depression, stress or anxiety and any other overwhelming emotions or life event that can disrupt the balance in us humans. It's only many years later and with a bit more knowledge and understanding that I have realised we don't and won't always feel 100% when doing something we are interested in. In fact we can have quite a few 20% days and that's okay too. I do photography and there isn't a month that doesn't go by that I question this hobby, this year I was going to sell everything because I was so fed up, overwhelmed and restricted by CPS every time I attempted to do photography. But when I get a good photo, which isn't all the time and I get absorbed in the post production of it and see it come to life I think okay all those really bad 20% days were worth that one good photo and I am not ready to give up on it. I take this approach with every one of my interests...if I didn't do that I wouldn't do any of them. It's okay not to be absorbed all the time. I can be extremely critical of my hobbies and talents and if I wasn't careful I could easily think myself out of all of them, but what good would that do me. So I have had to work really hard this year in listening mindfully to what my mind has being saying because I don't want to stop just because it wants me to. I only want to stop because I choose to, as yet I still choose to do photography, as and when I can within the limits of my body. Take a good look at your thoughts Bruce, identify the ones you're really buying into and the ones you're truly fused with and then do some diffusion work on them. That would be a good first step to approaching this present dilemma. The next would be finding a way to accept that you have these thoughts and feelings, but to then let them go and still proceed in your valued direction and achieve what you want in your life. Definitely not easy its hard work but its achievable. The main thing I would suggest is to approach this gently, patiently and with as much self kindness and self compassion you can muster within you. Remember this list of thoughts above is not you, there just thoughts, you are far greater than all of them. With loving kindness Jo > > > Hi all, > > > > This is my observation - I haven't really done a good control > > experiment on this. > > > > But, I think this list has been really bad for me. A lot of it may > > be that it's a group of depressed anxious or embittered people. And > > that might not be a good thing. Also it may be that the list is > > dominated by just a few people and some of these people have an axe > > to grind. Or they feel anger and embitterment and what to spread > > that anger and embitterment to others. > > > > I would be very curious to see a control study of the efficacy of > > participating in this list. > > > > In some ways I'm puzzled. Studies have shown efficacy of ACT and > > ACT is one of the evidence based therapies. So it may be that ACT > > would be a big help too me if I just stick to the other ACT > > resources and exclude this list. And I will now experiment with that. > > > > My observation now is that REBT for me is much more efficacious. > > Now there might be some things I can take from ACT to improve REBT. > > The diffusion. The mindfulness too. But I think I have to find > > better mindful exercises for me. I'm very ADHD and the sitting and > > breathing exercises are not all that good for me. Vigorous exercise > > helps me become more mindful. I do yoga but I prefer the more > > vigorous flow types than the types that hold ananas. When I go > > about my business I practice mindfulness. For example while > > driving. Most people are not mindful when driving and race up to > > stop at traffic lights instead of trying to go with flow and maybe > > time the lights. > > > > I'm curious about the studies and if there is anything about what > > kind of people benefit from ACT and from CBT and REBT. Maybe there > > something about me where REBT works better. > > > > And I found positive psychology to be a wonderful resource. It is > > such a big and active area in psychology right now. Everything from > > the flow work by Csikszentmihaly to Selgiman's Posttraumatic growth > > to Fredrickson's Broaden-and-Build, is all such good stuff. > > > > One thing about flow. Albert Ellis often talked about having an > > absorbing interest. Csikszentmihaly work on flow is very similar to > > Ellis idea of absorbing interest. I have always thought of ACT's > > values and committed actions as similar to this. But now I think > > there are some differences. The flow or absorbing interest is > > really something outside of yourself. It may reflect your values, > > but I think being absorbed in something that is more outside of > > yourself may give you something different than the ACT values and > > committed actions. When I read you guys' stuff on this, it just > > seems to self-absorbed or something and sometimes creepy. For this > > flow stuff, think more outside of yourself - maybe think something > > more altruistic - a contribution coming from you to the world > > outside of yourself. Check out Csikszentmihayly's works on flow. > > > > But I'm really grateful to the professionals on this list and will > > experiment with ACT resources excluding this list and I love REBT > > and positive psychology and so of course do a lot with that. I'll > > drop back in next year sometime to see how this list is going and > > see if the same people still dominate the list or if it changes. > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Hi Bruce,

I wanted to let you know that knowing your thoughts is important, accepting your

having them is good and diffusing them to enable you to let go and still walk

your valued path with them is key. But understanding them...not too sure that

is essential. A lot of my thoughts don't always make sense, that's evident

after 6 months of journaling, not all my thoughts, feelings and patterns can be

completely understood. What is more important it just being mindful and aware

that they are there and not buying into any of them.

Let me tell you about my last 24 hrs. I had agreed to go to an air show today,

to take photographs. Now this is an expensive day and money is an issue for me,

so I worry about spending it instead of saving it. I felt guilt in going to it

spending the money, when I need to be saving. I spent weeks deciding whether to

go to this, I hummed and hawed, consumed by all sorts of thoughts,

justifications etc, eventually I agreed to go. Once I agreed to go, I still

felt guilt over the money but I accepted it. Then I started to worry what if I

have a severe pain episode and can't go, I won't get the money back and yet

again my CPS will have prevented me from doing something of value to me. What

if I can't manage the whole day and my friends don't won't to leave early, how

will I cope. What if the day is too much and I end up in bed with a really bad

pain episode. The last time I did an air show it took 10 days to recover, do I

want that again. What if the weather is bad, I won't get any decent picture so

what's the point of going. 24 hours ago I checked the weather for the

event....it was bad, rain the whole day, with glimpses of sun if lucky and the

rain would be torrential, so definitely not going to be a great day for

photographs which was the whole point. My mind then started thinking okay how

can you get out of going, how can I let people down, what can I do. What a

waste of my time, I don't want to be sore and have only rubbish images to show

for all that pain. It's just going to be such a rubbish day out and I am going

to hate it and wish I had never gone. This is the worst day ever....Wow some

cracking thoughts there!!

Bruce last night my mind had worked itself up into a frenzy of thoughts, hoping

I would buy into one of them...I nearly did. I took 40 minutes out to do some

mindfulness practice when I realised how busy my clever little mind had become.

With some guided meditation I then realised what it was doing. I did some

visualisation and placed every thought on a different leaf and let them float

down the river. They kept repeating and I kept sending them down the river,

after thanking my mind for informing me what it was thinking. I chose for me

instead not to buy into any of my thoughts and feelings and chose to make sure I

was well prepared for all weather. I didn't sleep well, which I suspected and

my mind started to say, " you haven't had enough sleep to go " another thought to

be diffused, " you're going to have a rotten time today " , another thought sent

down the river. I was up way too early today and it gave my mind far too much

time to think and right up to the point when my friends were coming to pick me

up I was still diffusion thoughts about not going, about my worries relating to

my CPS, money and trying to be sociable all day when in physical pain. How

would I manage my camera bag and all the gear I have to carry, how much

standing, walking will I have to do. Will there be opportunities to sit. Can I

hold my camera steady today, lots and lots of thoughts; it's never ending,

always repeating too. You know planning a day out for me is exhausting in

relation to just the thinking and I go through this process every time I plan to

do something, not just with photography. If I listened to my thoughts and

became truly fused with them I would not have gone today. Had I not gone I

wouldn't have laughed today with my friends, I would have missed the opportunity

of dancing in the rain and hail...yes hail in July, would you believe it. I

would have missed out on taking some photographs and seen some amazing air

acrobatics. Am I tired and sore...absolutely, body aches all over, head is

throbbing, and I have had to take some strong medication tonight, but all in all

I had a good day. I got some reasonable images, time will tell when I work on

them if I have achieved what I wanted, if not it gets chalked up as good

experience.

Would I have preferred better weather ...absolutely....but today was today and

the weather was poor and we all made the best of it and I am so glad I did not

buy into my thoughts and allow my mind to think me out of going. Had I not paid

attention, not been mindful, and not done my diffusion, then I would have missed

out of a special day...after all its not every day you sit in a torrential rain

shower eating a soggy wet hamburger sipping watered down sweet tea and laughing

with your friends about the ish weather, one we will always remember and

look back on fondly.

Bruce I have shared this with you to let you see, that it is very common to have

lots of worries, anxieties, thoughts, concerns, doubts, in fact our minds are

really good at doing that all of the time, it just comes so naturally and

easily, but ACT helps you to be aware of it and gives you the choice of doing

what you want for you as a human being, not the thoughts, feelings, your

condition, or your body.

I choose my life today the way I wanted it to be, not my mind, not my body, not

my CPS, not my depression, or my anxiety. I choose my moment by moment. It was

about me today and not my conditions and that makes me feel good today, and

tonight I sit comfortably accepting my pain, both physical and mental, with a

smile and sense of satisfaction. Not just because I went today, but because of

my whole approach to my day, I acted with what I valued and tonight I am giving

myself a little kindness too.

Bruce I hope you are able to see you are so not alone in the way you feel and if

you can preserve with the mindfulness, diffusion and start accepting you are

going to have these sorts of thoughts, but be assured you will still be able to

have a fulfilling and valued approach to living your life too.

Hope this helps to in some way Bruce.

With loving kindness

Jo

> > >

> > > > Hi all,

> > > >

> > > > This is my observation - I haven't really done a good control

> > > > experiment on this.

> > > >

> > > > But, I think this list has been really bad for me. A lot of it may

> > > > be that it's a group of depressed anxious or embittered people.

> > And

> > > > that might not be a good thing. Also it may be that the list is

> > > > dominated by just a few people and some of these people have an

> > axe

> > > > to grind. Or they feel anger and embitterment and what to spread

> > > > that anger and embitterment to others.

> > > >

> > > > I would be very curious to see a control study of the efficacy of

> > > > participating in this list.

> > > >

> > > > In some ways I'm puzzled. Studies have shown efficacy of ACT and

> > > > ACT is one of the evidence based therapies. So it may be that ACT

> > > > would be a big help too me if I just stick to the other ACT

> > > > resources and exclude this list. And I will now experiment with

> > that.

> > > >

> > > > My observation now is that REBT for me is much more efficacious.

> > > > Now there might be some things I can take from ACT to improve

> > REBT.

> > > > The diffusion. The mindfulness too. But I think I have to find

> > > > better mindful exercises for me. I'm very ADHD and the sitting and

> > > > breathing exercises are not all that good for me. Vigorous

> > exercise

> > > > helps me become more mindful. I do yoga but I prefer the more

> > > > vigorous flow types than the types that hold ananas. When I go

> > > > about my business I practice mindfulness. For example while

> > > > driving. Most people are not mindful when driving and race up to

> > > > stop at traffic lights instead of trying to go with flow and maybe

> > > > time the lights.

> > > >

> > > > I'm curious about the studies and if there is anything about what

> > > > kind of people benefit from ACT and from CBT and REBT. Maybe there

> > > > something about me where REBT works better.

> > > >

> > > > And I found positive psychology to be a wonderful resource. It is

> > > > such a big and active area in psychology right now. Everything

> > from

> > > > the flow work by Csikszentmihaly to Selgiman's Posttraumatic

> > growth

> > > > to Fredrickson's Broaden-and-Build, is all such good stuff.

> > > >

> > > > One thing about flow. Albert Ellis often talked about having an

> > > > absorbing interest. Csikszentmihaly work on flow is very similar

> > to

> > > > Ellis idea of absorbing interest. I have always thought of ACT's

> > > > values and committed actions as similar to this. But now I think

> > > > there are some differences. The flow or absorbing interest is

> > > > really something outside of yourself. It may reflect your values,

> > > > but I think being absorbed in something that is more outside of

> > > > yourself may give you something different than the ACT values and

> > > > committed actions. When I read you guys' stuff on this, it just

> > > > seems to self-absorbed or something and sometimes creepy. For this

> > > > flow stuff, think more outside of yourself - maybe think something

> > > > more altruistic - a contribution coming from you to the world

> > > > outside of yourself. Check out Csikszentmihayly's works on flow.

> > > >

> > > > But I'm really grateful to the professionals on this list and will

> > > > experiment with ACT resources excluding this list and I love REBT

> > > > and positive psychology and so of course do a lot with that. I'll

> > > > drop back in next year sometime to see how this list is going and

> > > > see if the same people still dominate the list or if it changes.

> > > >

> > > > Cheers!

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Jo,Thanks for sharing this - it really helps me understand how to put this into practice

 

Hi Bruce,

I wanted to let you know that knowing your thoughts is important, accepting your having them is good and diffusing them to enable you to let go and still walk your valued path with them is key. But understanding them...not too sure that is essential. A lot of my thoughts don't always make sense, that's evident after 6 months of journaling, not all my thoughts, feelings and patterns can be completely understood. What is more important it just being mindful and aware that they are there and not buying into any of them.

Let me tell you about my last 24 hrs. I had agreed to go to an air show today, to take photographs. Now this is an expensive day and money is an issue for me, so I worry about spending it instead of saving it. I felt guilt in going to it spending the money, when I need to be saving. I spent weeks deciding whether to go to this, I hummed and hawed, consumed by all sorts of thoughts, justifications etc, eventually I agreed to go. Once I agreed to go, I still felt guilt over the money but I accepted it. Then I started to worry what if I have a severe pain episode and can't go, I won't get the money back and yet again my CPS will have prevented me from doing something of value to me. What if I can't manage the whole day and my friends don't won't to leave early, how will I cope. What if the day is too much and I end up in bed with a really bad pain episode. The last time I did an air show it took 10 days to recover, do I want that again. What if the weather is bad, I won't get any decent picture so what's the point of going. 24 hours ago I checked the weather for the event....it was bad, rain the whole day, with glimpses of sun if lucky and the rain would be torrential, so definitely not going to be a great day for photographs which was the whole point. My mind then started thinking okay how can you get out of going, how can I let people down, what can I do. What a waste of my time, I don't want to be sore and have only rubbish images to show for all that pain. It's just going to be such a rubbish day out and I am going to hate it and wish I had never gone. This is the worst day ever....Wow some cracking thoughts there!!

Bruce last night my mind had worked itself up into a frenzy of thoughts, hoping I would buy into one of them...I nearly did. I took 40 minutes out to do some mindfulness practice when I realised how busy my clever little mind had become. With some guided meditation I then realised what it was doing. I did some visualisation and placed every thought on a different leaf and let them float down the river. They kept repeating and I kept sending them down the river, after thanking my mind for informing me what it was thinking. I chose for me instead not to buy into any of my thoughts and feelings and chose to make sure I was well prepared for all weather. I didn't sleep well, which I suspected and my mind started to say, " you haven't had enough sleep to go " another thought to be diffused, " you're going to have a rotten time today " , another thought sent down the river. I was up way too early today and it gave my mind far too much time to think and right up to the point when my friends were coming to pick me up I was still diffusion thoughts about not going, about my worries relating to my CPS, money and trying to be sociable all day when in physical pain. How would I manage my camera bag and all the gear I have to carry, how much standing, walking will I have to do. Will there be opportunities to sit. Can I hold my camera steady today, lots and lots of thoughts; it's never ending, always repeating too. You know planning a day out for me is exhausting in relation to just the thinking and I go through this process every time I plan to do something, not just with photography. If I listened to my thoughts and became truly fused with them I would not have gone today. Had I not gone I wouldn't have laughed today with my friends, I would have missed the opportunity of dancing in the rain and hail...yes hail in July, would you believe it. I would have missed out on taking some photographs and seen some amazing air acrobatics. Am I tired and sore...absolutely, body aches all over, head is throbbing, and I have had to take some strong medication tonight, but all in all I had a good day. I got some reasonable images, time will tell when I work on them if I have achieved what I wanted, if not it gets chalked up as good experience.

Would I have preferred better weather ...absolutely....but today was today and the weather was poor and we all made the best of it and I am so glad I did not buy into my thoughts and allow my mind to think me out of going. Had I not paid attention, not been mindful, and not done my diffusion, then I would have missed out of a special day...after all its not every day you sit in a torrential rain shower eating a soggy wet hamburger sipping watered down sweet tea and laughing with your friends about the ish weather, one we will always remember and look back on fondly.

Bruce I have shared this with you to let you see, that it is very common to have lots of worries, anxieties, thoughts, concerns, doubts, in fact our minds are really good at doing that all of the time, it just comes so naturally and easily, but ACT helps you to be aware of it and gives you the choice of doing what you want for you as a human being, not the thoughts, feelings, your condition, or your body.

I choose my life today the way I wanted it to be, not my mind, not my body, not my CPS, not my depression, or my anxiety. I choose my moment by moment. It was about me today and not my conditions and that makes me feel good today, and tonight I sit comfortably accepting my pain, both physical and mental, with a smile and sense of satisfaction. Not just because I went today, but because of my whole approach to my day, I acted with what I valued and tonight I am giving myself a little kindness too.

Bruce I hope you are able to see you are so not alone in the way you feel and if you can preserve with the mindfulness, diffusion and start accepting you are going to have these sorts of thoughts, but be assured you will still be able to have a fulfilling and valued approach to living your life too.

Hope this helps to in some way Bruce.

With loving kindness

Jo

> > >

> > > > Hi all,

> > > >

> > > > This is my observation - I haven't really done a good control

> > > > experiment on this.

> > > >

> > > > But, I think this list has been really bad for me. A lot of it may

> > > > be that it's a group of depressed anxious or embittered people.

> > And

> > > > that might not be a good thing. Also it may be that the list is

> > > > dominated by just a few people and some of these people have an

> > axe

> > > > to grind. Or they feel anger and embitterment and what to spread

> > > > that anger and embitterment to others.

> > > >

> > > > I would be very curious to see a control study of the efficacy of

> > > > participating in this list.

> > > >

> > > > In some ways I'm puzzled. Studies have shown efficacy of ACT and

> > > > ACT is one of the evidence based therapies. So it may be that ACT

> > > > would be a big help too me if I just stick to the other ACT

> > > > resources and exclude this list. And I will now experiment with

> > that.

> > > >

> > > > My observation now is that REBT for me is much more efficacious.

> > > > Now there might be some things I can take from ACT to improve

> > REBT.

> > > > The diffusion. The mindfulness too. But I think I have to find

> > > > better mindful exercises for me. I'm very ADHD and the sitting and

> > > > breathing exercises are not all that good for me. Vigorous

> > exercise

> > > > helps me become more mindful. I do yoga but I prefer the more

> > > > vigorous flow types than the types that hold ananas. When I go

> > > > about my business I practice mindfulness. For example while

> > > > driving. Most people are not mindful when driving and race up to

> > > > stop at traffic lights instead of trying to go with flow and maybe

> > > > time the lights.

> > > >

> > > > I'm curious about the studies and if there is anything about what

> > > > kind of people benefit from ACT and from CBT and REBT. Maybe there

> > > > something about me where REBT works better.

> > > >

> > > > And I found positive psychology to be a wonderful resource. It is

> > > > such a big and active area in psychology right now. Everything

> > from

> > > > the flow work by Csikszentmihaly to Selgiman's Posttraumatic

> > growth

> > > > to Fredrickson's Broaden-and-Build, is all such good stuff.

> > > >

> > > > One thing about flow. Albert Ellis often talked about having an

> > > > absorbing interest. Csikszentmihaly work on flow is very similar

> > to

> > > > Ellis idea of absorbing interest. I have always thought of ACT's

> > > > values and committed actions as similar to this. But now I think

> > > > there are some differences. The flow or absorbing interest is

> > > > really something outside of yourself. It may reflect your values,

> > > > but I think being absorbed in something that is more outside of

> > > > yourself may give you something different than the ACT values and

> > > > committed actions. When I read you guys' stuff on this, it just

> > > > seems to self-absorbed or something and sometimes creepy. For this

> > > > flow stuff, think more outside of yourself - maybe think something

> > > > more altruistic - a contribution coming from you to the world

> > > > outside of yourself. Check out Csikszentmihayly's works on flow.

> > > >

> > > > But I'm really grateful to the professionals on this list and will

> > > > experiment with ACT resources excluding this list and I love REBT

> > > > and positive psychology and so of course do a lot with that. I'll

> > > > drop back in next year sometime to see how this list is going and

> > > > see if the same people still dominate the list or if it changes.

> > > >

> > > > Cheers!

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

>