Re: Experiment with this list

[Guest guest]

I was very busy this morning and just read this line:"last night my mind had worked itself up into a frenzy of thoughts, hoping I would buy into one of them."What a great description of the way our minds try and con us into things! Here in the US recovery community there's a phrase called "dope-fiending". It describes the way junkies lie, cajole, wheedle, and generally say absolutely anything to the people around them in order to get the dope money they want. (Employed junkies also make extraordinary commission salespeople, but that's another story). But it also describes the way a mind driven by primitive fears and unremembered childhood scripts can try and try to bully us into experiential avoidance.Thanks again!Jimlast night my mind had worked itself up into a frenzy of thoughts, hoping I would buy into one of them.

[Guest guest]

Hi Jo. I'd like to know more about your mind telling you that you couldn't back out because it would mean letting down your friends. It seems to me that it would have been a perfectly good decision to not go, given the weather and its multiple challenges. I feel sure you made the right decision for you because you utilized your ACT skills to arrive at it, but I am wondering how you dealt with that particular thought without buying into it (or did you?). Your email name "want2bgracious" is fascinating to me. What does being gracious mean to you? I have to admit, it is not something I ever consciously aspired to. If I could boil it down to a few words, I guess I would "want2bgenuine". Color me curious!Thanks!Helena On 29 July 2012 06:08, want2bgracious <joanne_deashotmail> wrote:

Hi Bruce,

I wanted to let you know that knowing your thoughts is important, accepting your having them is good and diffusing them to enable you to let go and still walk your valued path with them is key. But understanding them...not too sure that is essential. A lot of my thoughts don't always make sense, that's evident after 6 months of journaling, not all my thoughts, feelings and patterns can be completely understood. What is more important it just being mindful and aware that they are there and not buying into any of them.

Let me tell you about my last 24 hrs. I had agreed to go to an air show today, to take photographs. Now this is an expensive day and money is an issue for me, so I worry about spending it instead of saving it. I felt guilt in going to it spending the money, when I need to be saving. I spent weeks deciding whether to go to this, I hummed and hawed, consumed by all sorts of thoughts, justifications etc, eventually I agreed to go. Once I agreed to go, I still felt guilt over the money but I accepted it. Then I started to worry what if I have a severe pain episode and can't go, I won't get the money back and yet again my CPS will have prevented me from doing something of value to me. What if I can't manage the whole day and my friends don't won't to leave early, how will I cope. What if the day is too much and I end up in bed with a really bad pain episode. The last time I did an air show it took 10 days to recover, do I want that again. What if the weather is bad, I won't get any decent picture so what's the point of going. 24 hours ago I checked the weather for the event....it was bad, rain the whole day, with glimpses of sun if lucky and the rain would be torrential, so definitely not going to be a great day for photographs which was the whole point. My mind then started thinking okay how can you get out of going, how can I let people down, what can I do. What a waste of my time, I don't want to be sore and have only rubbish images to show for all that pain. It's just going to be such a rubbish day out and I am going to hate it and wish I had never gone. This is the worst day ever....Wow some cracking thoughts there!!

Bruce last night my mind had worked itself up into a frenzy of thoughts, hoping I would buy into one of them...I nearly did. I took 40 minutes out to do some mindfulness practice when I realised how busy my clever little mind had become. With some guided meditation I then realised what it was doing. I did some visualisation and placed every thought on a different leaf and let them float down the river. They kept repeating and I kept sending them down the river, after thanking my mind for informing me what it was thinking. I chose for me instead not to buy into any of my thoughts and feelings and chose to make sure I was well prepared for all weather. I didn't sleep well, which I suspected and my mind started to say, "you haven't had enough sleep to go" another thought to be diffused, "you're going to have a rotten time today", another thought sent down the river. I was up way too early today and it gave my mind far too much time to think and right up to the point when my friends were coming to pick me up I was still diffusion thoughts about not going, about my worries relating to my CPS, money and trying to be sociable all day when in physical pain. How would I manage my camera bag and all the gear I have to carry, how much standing, walking will I have to do. Will there be opportunities to sit. Can I hold my camera steady today, lots and lots of thoughts; it's never ending, always repeating too. You know planning a day out for me is exhausting in relation to just the thinking and I go through this process every time I plan to do something, not just with photography. If I listened to my thoughts and became truly fused with them I would not have gone today. Had I not gone I wouldn't have laughed today with my friends, I would have missed the opportunity of dancing in the rain and hail...yes hail in July, would you believe it. I would have missed out on taking some photographs and seen some amazing air acrobatics. Am I tired and sore...absolutely, body aches all over, head is throbbing, and I have had to take some strong medication tonight, but all in all I had a good day. I got some reasonable images, time will tell when I work on them if I have achieved what I wanted, if not it gets chalked up as good experience.

Would I have preferred better weather ...absolutely....but today was today and the weather was poor and we all made the best of it and I am so glad I did not buy into my thoughts and allow my mind to think me out of going. Had I not paid attention, not been mindful, and not done my diffusion, then I would have missed out of a special day...after all its not every day you sit in a torrential rain shower eating a soggy wet hamburger sipping watered down sweet tea and laughing with your friends about the ish weather, one we will always remember and look back on fondly.

Bruce I have shared this with you to let you see, that it is very common to have lots of worries, anxieties, thoughts, concerns, doubts, in fact our minds are really good at doing that all of the time, it just comes so naturally and easily, but ACT helps you to be aware of it and gives you the choice of doing what you want for you as a human being, not the thoughts, feelings, your condition, or your body.

I choose my life today the way I wanted it to be, not my mind, not my body, not my CPS, not my depression, or my anxiety. I choose my moment by moment. It was about me today and not my conditions and that makes me feel good today, and tonight I sit comfortably accepting my pain, both physical and mental, with a smile and sense of satisfaction. Not just because I went today, but because of my whole approach to my day, I acted with what I valued and tonight I am giving myself a little kindness too.

Bruce I hope you are able to see you are so not alone in the way you feel and if you can preserve with the mindfulness, diffusion and start accepting you are going to have these sorts of thoughts, but be assured you will still be able to have a fulfilling and valued approach to living your life too.

Hope this helps to in some way Bruce.

With loving kindness

Jo

> > >

> > > > Hi all,

> > > >

> > > > This is my observation - I haven't really done a good control

> > > > experiment on this.

> > > >

> > > > But, I think this list has been really bad for me. A lot of it may

> > > > be that it's a group of depressed anxious or embittered people.

> > And

> > > > that might not be a good thing. Also it may be that the list is

> > > > dominated by just a few people and some of these people have an

> > axe

> > > > to grind. Or they feel anger and embitterment and what to spread

> > > > that anger and embitterment to others.

> > > >

> > > > I would be very curious to see a control study of the efficacy of

> > > > participating in this list.

> > > >

> > > > In some ways I'm puzzled. Studies have shown efficacy of ACT and

> > > > ACT is one of the evidence based therapies. So it may be that ACT

> > > > would be a big help too me if I just stick to the other ACT

> > > > resources and exclude this list. And I will now experiment with

> > that.

> > > >

> > > > My observation now is that REBT for me is much more efficacious.

> > > > Now there might be some things I can take from ACT to improve

> > REBT.

> > > > The diffusion. The mindfulness too. But I think I have to find

> > > > better mindful exercises for me. I'm very ADHD and the sitting and

> > > > breathing exercises are not all that good for me. Vigorous

> > exercise

> > > > helps me become more mindful. I do yoga but I prefer the more

> > > > vigorous flow types than the types that hold ananas. When I go

> > > > about my business I practice mindfulness. For example while

> > > > driving. Most people are not mindful when driving and race up to

> > > > stop at traffic lights instead of trying to go with flow and maybe

> > > > time the lights.

> > > >

> > > > I'm curious about the studies and if there is anything about what

> > > > kind of people benefit from ACT and from CBT and REBT. Maybe there

> > > > something about me where REBT works better.

> > > >

> > > > And I found positive psychology to be a wonderful resource. It is

> > > > such a big and active area in psychology right now. Everything

> > from

> > > > the flow work by Csikszentmihaly to Selgiman's Posttraumatic

> > growth

> > > > to Fredrickson's Broaden-and-Build, is all such good stuff.

> > > >

> > > > One thing about flow. Albert Ellis often talked about having an

> > > > absorbing interest. Csikszentmihaly work on flow is very similar

> > to

> > > > Ellis idea of absorbing interest. I have always thought of ACT's

> > > > values and committed actions as similar to this. But now I think

> > > > there are some differences. The flow or absorbing interest is

> > > > really something outside of yourself. It may reflect your values,

> > > > but I think being absorbed in something that is more outside of

> > > > yourself may give you something different than the ACT values and

> > > > committed actions. When I read you guys' stuff on this, it just

> > > > seems to self-absorbed or something and sometimes creepy. For this

> > > > flow stuff, think more outside of yourself - maybe think something

> > > > more altruistic - a contribution coming from you to the world

> > > > outside of yourself. Check out Csikszentmihayly's works on flow.

> > > >

> > > > But I'm really grateful to the professionals on this list and will

> > > > experiment with ACT resources excluding this list and I love REBT

> > > > and positive psychology and so of course do a lot with that. I'll

> > > > drop back in next year sometime to see how this list is going and

> > > > see if the same people still dominate the list or if it changes.

> > > >

> > > > Cheers!

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Helena,

Interesting questions Helena and I will try and answer them the best I can. The

question regarding my mind telling me I couldn't back out because it would mean

letting people down...is just a very typical guilt line that my brain feeds me,

its not one I typical get caught up in. Not unless I am in a spiral mode of

negativity.

I find guilt lines easy to identify as I was raised with parents who

un-be-knowingly used guilt as a tool got get me and my siblings to behave. In

fact as kids we learn really quickly how powerful the guilt tool is. I watch my

4 year old nephew use it with great skill on his parents to get what he wants,

and I know he learned it from them too. 4 years old and he is a master at guilt

already. It fascinates me how quickly our mind evolves once we understand how to

use language.

I constantly have to pull out of things I arrange when my CPS gets so

overwhelming bad and that does mean I have to disappoint friends, family etc as

a result. It is very easy to get caught up in a feeling of letting people down

and myself down, but ultimately its not a deliberate plan to disappoint, its

just one of those things that happens and sometimes it happens when I least want

it too. My mind has a tendency to really run away with itself and worry and

stress over any planned event and the CPS only adds to this and aggravates

anxiety. Because its so intense and full on it is so easy to get caught up in

my thoughts and feelings and forget to be mindful that I am just having

thoughts. In relation to this occasion my mind was using an old trick that does

catch me out from time to time, but this time I was mindful and aware and

therefore able to not buy into it and diffuse from it. That is the only

difference...I wasn't buying this time. I also knew I wasn't feeling like I was

about to suddenly be crippled with pain. I was physically tensing up and felt

pressure in my body and head, but this released a little after some guided

meditation. I knew the day was going to take its toll but I felt deep down I

could find a way to manage the day and I made the choice to be willing to accept

the consequences of doing it, in that I could trigger a severe pain episode. If

I truly felt I couldn't manage or cope physically with my day, believe me I

would have had no hesitation in cancelling and yes I would feel the tinge of

disappointment and regret but I would also have a choice in how I wanted to deal

with that too.

At the time I had the thought I asked myself one question Helena. I simple

asked myself, " Well Jo you do this to yourself all the time, are you buying or

not buying this thought this time " . The answer was " No, not this time " and I

placed the thought on a leaf and watch it float away down my diffusion river.

If it came up again I repeated the process over and over...I just wasn't buying.

I accept I have these thoughts and I chose this time not to let it influence me

and instead proceeded with what I had planned. Even if the weather had been

good Helena I could guarantee I would still have had that thought disguised in

some other way.

The challenges I have Helena are no more so than that of those with anxiety,

stress and depression. The CPS does limit me and I have to be a bit realistic,

just like everyone in this group is with depression, anxiety, social phobia etc.

It would be easy to say I am different because I have CPS, but that is a thought

I am choosing not to buy into. I am learning to balance things a bit better as

I have realised I can accept a certain amount of physical and emotional pain

from the CPS, my depression and my anxiety if I am willing, and I have also

realised I am more willing when its something of value to me.

A good example of this is I choose to go to the dentist and get my teeth checked

cleaned and polished knowing full well this will trigger one of the worst pain

episodes I can get. But I am willing to accept that pain because I want to keep

my teeth healthy. I am 42 with no fillings and no decay, the last tooth I had

out I was 12 years old and every three months I go to the dentist and basically

ask for a pain episode. Why because I want to keep my teeth, to eat and to

smile with and its one of many little things that I have that are healthy and I

would like it to stay that way for as long as possible. If I gave into the

challenges of my CPS and the link it has with my teeth, I would not brush them,

and I would go to the dentist and eventually they would decay cause great pain

and then fall out. So I willingly accepting my pain to achieve the results I

want for me, because I value my health and my teeth.

I hope the above answered your first question. If you are wondering how I am

managing today. I am tired, aching all over, back pain, bit of head and facial

pain, some serious nerve pain in my left ear, weak hands wrists and ankles, all

pretty much as expected, but slept for a good 14hrs and I am spending my day

just being kind to myself and not feeling any guilt for resting or sadness at

needing too. I am just having a relaxing Sunday.

In regards to your second question why I choose " Want2begracious " as my user

name, well my full first name is Joanne and the meaning of Joanne is " God is

Gracious " . At the time of joining the Group I was aware of how much of me I had

lost and how much I wanted to be me. I just wanted to be Joanne again, not

Joanne with CPS, depression and anxiety....just Joanne. I looked up the meaning

of gracious, defined as pleasantly kind, benevolent, good-hearted, good-natured,

courteous and compassionate. I liked these qualities as they reminded me of my

old self, before I became overwhelmed by my life, mind and emotions. So I

choose the name want2begracious to remind me every day to be Joanne and to be

the best Joanne I could be when connecting and communicating with the group and

elsewhere. Its a name that reminds me how much I want to be me, the real me.

Before I send any reply I always ask myself the question, was I gracious in my

reply. Put another way I am asking was I being me, the real me, the genuine me.

Hope this answers you questions Helena

With loving kindness

Jo

> > > >

> > > > > Hi all,

> > > > >

> > > > > This is my observation - I haven't really done a good control

> > > > > experiment on this.

> > > > >

> > > > > But, I think this list has been really bad for me. A lot of it may

> > > > > be that it's a group of depressed anxious or embittered people.

> > > And

> > > > > that might not be a good thing. Also it may be that the list is

> > > > > dominated by just a few people and some of these people have an

> > > axe

> > > > > to grind. Or they feel anger and embitterment and what to spread

> > > > > that anger and embitterment to others.

> > > > >

> > > > > I would be very curious to see a control study of the efficacy of

> > > > > participating in this list.

> > > > >

> > > > > In some ways I'm puzzled. Studies have shown efficacy of ACT and

> > > > > ACT is one of the evidence based therapies. So it may be that ACT

> > > > > would be a big help too me if I just stick to the other ACT

> > > > > resources and exclude this list. And I will now experiment with

> > > that.

> > > > >

> > > > > My observation now is that REBT for me is much more efficacious.

> > > > > Now there might be some things I can take from ACT to improve

> > > REBT .

> > > > > The diffusion. The mindfulness too. But I think I have to find

> > > > > better mindful exercises for me. I'm very ADHD and the sitting and

> > > > > breathing exercises are not all that good for me. Vigorous

> > > exercise

> > > > > helps me become more mindful. I do yoga but I prefer the more

> > > > > vigorous flow types than the types that hold ananas . When I go

> > > > > about my business I practice mindfulness. For example while

> > > > > driving. Most people are not mindful when driving and race up to

> > > > > stop at traffic lights instead of trying to go with flow and maybe

> > > > > time the lights.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm curious about the studies and if there is anything about what

> > > > > kind of people benefit from ACT and from CBT and REBT . Maybe there

> > > > > something about me where REBT works better.

> > > > >

> > > > > And I found positive psychology to be a wonderful resource. It is

> > > > > such a big and active area in psychology right now. Everything

> > > from

> > > > > the flow work by Csikszentmihaly to Selgiman's Posttraumatic

> > > growth

> > > > > to Fredrickson's Broaden-and-Build, is all such good stuff.

> > > > >

> > > > > One thing about flow. Albert Ellis often talked about having an

> > > > > absorbing interest. Csikszentmihaly work on flow is very similar

> > > to

> > > > > Ellis idea of absorbing interest. I have always thought of ACT's

> > > > > values and committed actions as similar to this. But now I think

> > > > > there are some differences. The flow or absorbing interest is

> > > > > really something outside of yourself. It may reflect your values,

> > > > > but I think being absorbed in something that is more outside of

> > > > > yourself may give you something different than the ACT values and

> > > > > committed actions. When I read you guys' stuff on this, it just

> > > > > seems to self-absorbed or something and sometimes creepy. For this

> > > > > flow stuff, think more outside of yourself - maybe think something

> > > > > more altruistic - a contribution coming from you to the world

> > > > > outside of yourself. Check out Csikszentmihayly's works on flow.

> > > > >

> > > > > But I'm really grateful to the professionals on this list and will

> > > > > experiment with ACT resources excluding this list and I love REBT

> > > > > and positive psychology and so of course do a lot with that. I'll

> > > > > drop back in next year sometime to see how this list is going and

> > > > > see if the same people still dominate the list or if it changes.

> > > > >

> > > > > Cheers!

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you so much for this, Jo. I really appreciate it. You are an inspiration to me, to keep working on ACT and see where it takes me.I too have a difficult time with not talking myself out of doing what I would like to be doing. I'm not bad at doing what I have to do, or what I'm told to by other people. But I am not good at taking action on what I would like to be doing. This is my life going by and I'm not living it. Of course, it could be that my expectations for what constitutes a valued life are way too high. But I'm not good at taking in the simple moments and being satisfied by them. I have a lot of good things in my life yet I'm still miserable thanks to my fears and emotions.Bruce Hi Bruce, I wanted to let you know that knowing your thoughts is important, accepting your having them is good and diffusing them to enable you to let go and still walk your valued path with them is key. But understanding them...not too sure that is essential. A lot of my thoughts don't always make sense, that's evident after 6 months of journaling, not all my thoughts, feelings and patterns can be completely understood. What is more important it just being mindful and aware that they are there and not buying into any of them. Let me tell you about my last 24 hrs. I had agreed to go to an air show today, to take photographs. Now this is an expensive day and money is an issue for me, so I worry about spending it instead of saving it. I felt guilt in going to it spending the money, when I need to be saving. I spent weeks deciding whether to go to this, I hummed and hawed, consumed by all sorts of thoughts, justifications etc, eventually I agreed to go. Once I agreed to go, I still felt guilt over the money but I accepted it. Then I started to worry what if I have a severe pain episode and can't go, I won't get the money back and yet again my CPS will have prevented me from doing something of value to me. What if I can't manage the whole day and my friends don't won't to leave early, how will I cope. What if the day is too much and I end up in bed with a really bad pain episode. The last time I did an air show it took 10 days to recover, do I want that again. What if the weather is bad, I won't get any decent picture so what's the point of going. 24 hours ago I checked the weather for the event....it was bad, rain the whole day, with glimpses of sun if lucky and the rain would be torrential, so definitely not going to be a great day for photographs which was the whole point. My mind then started thinking okay how can you get out of going, how can I let people down, what can I do. What a waste of my time, I don't want to be sore and have only rubbish images to show for all that pain. It's just going to be such a rubbish day out and I am going to hate it and wish I had never gone. This is the worst day ever....Wow some cracking thoughts there!! Bruce last night my mind had worked itself up into a frenzy of thoughts, hoping I would buy into one of them...I nearly did. I took 40 minutes out to do some mindfulness practice when I realised how busy my clever little mind had become. With some guided meditation I then realised what it was doing. I did some visualisation and placed every thought on a different leaf and let them float down the river. They kept repeating and I kept sending them down the river, after thanking my mind for informing me what it was thinking. I chose for me instead not to buy into any of my thoughts and feelings and chose to make sure I was well prepared for all weather. I didn't sleep well, which I suspected and my mind started to say, "you haven't had enough sleep to go" another thought to be diffused, "you're going to have a rotten time today", another thought sent down the river. I was up way too early today and it gave my mind far too much time to think and right up to the point when my friends were coming to pick me up I was still diffusion thoughts about not going, about my worries relating to my CPS, money and trying to be sociable all day when in physical pain. How would I manage my camera bag and all the gear I have to carry, how much standing, walking will I have to do. Will there be opportunities to sit. Can I hold my camera steady today, lots and lots of thoughts; it's never ending, always repeating too. You know planning a day out for me is exhausting in relation to just the thinking and I go through this process every time I plan to do something, not just with photography. If I listened to my thoughts and became truly fused with them I would not have gone today. Had I not gone I wouldn't have laughed today with my friends, I would have missed the opportunity of dancing in the rain and hail...yes hail in July, would you believe it. I would have missed out on taking some photographs and seen some amazing air acrobatics. Am I tired and sore...absolutely, body aches all over, head is throbbing, and I have had to take some strong medication tonight, but all in all I had a good day. I got some reasonable images, time will tell when I work on them if I have achieved what I wanted, if not it gets chalked up as good experience. Would I have preferred better weather ...absolutely....but today was today and the weather was poor and we all made the best of it and I am so glad I did not buy into my thoughts and allow my mind to think me out of going. Had I not paid attention, not been mindful, and not done my diffusion, then I would have missed out of a special day...after all its not every day you sit in a torrential rain shower eating a soggy wet hamburger sipping watered down sweet tea and laughing with your friends about the ish weather, one we will always remember and look back on fondly. Bruce I have shared this with you to let you see, that it is very common to have lots of worries, anxieties, thoughts, concerns, doubts, in fact our minds are really good at doing that all of the time, it just comes so naturally and easily, but ACT helps you to be aware of it and gives you the choice of doing what you want for you as a human being, not the thoughts, feelings, your condition, or your body. I choose my life today the way I wanted it to be, not my mind, not my body, not my CPS, not my depression, or my anxiety. I choose my moment by moment. It was about me today and not my conditions and that makes me feel good today, and tonight I sit comfortably accepting my pain, both physical and mental, with a smile and sense of satisfaction. Not just because I went today, but because of my whole approach to my day, I acted with what I valued and tonight I am giving myself a little kindness too. Bruce I hope you are able to see you are so not alone in the way you feel and if you can preserve with the mindfulness, diffusion and start accepting you are going to have these sorts of thoughts, but be assured you will still be able to have a fulfilling and valued approach to living your life too. Hope this helps to in some way Bruce. With loving kindness Jo > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > This is my observation - I haven't really done a good control > > > > experiment on this. > > > > > > > > But, I think this list has been really bad for me. A lot of it may > > > > be that it's a group of depressed anxious or embittered people. > > And > > > > that might not be a good thing. Also it may be that the list is > > > > dominated by just a few people and some of these people have an > > axe > > > > to grind. Or they feel anger and embitterment and what to spread > > > > that anger and embitterment to others. > > > > > > > > I would be very curious to see a control study of the efficacy of > > > > participating in this list. > > > > > > > > In some ways I'm puzzled. Studies have shown efficacy of ACT and > > > > ACT is one of the evidence based therapies. So it may be that ACT > > > > would be a big help too me if I just stick to the other ACT > > > > resources and exclude this list. And I will now experiment with > > that. > > > > > > > > My observation now is that REBT for me is much more efficacious. > > > > Now there might be some things I can take from ACT to improve > > REBT. > > > > The diffusion. The mindfulness too. But I think I have to find > > > > better mindful exercises for me. I'm very ADHD and the sitting and > > > > breathing exercises are not all that good for me. Vigorous > > exercise > > > > helps me become more mindful. I do yoga but I prefer the more > > > > vigorous flow types than the types that hold ananas. When I go > > > > about my business I practice mindfulness. For example while > > > > driving. Most people are not mindful when driving and race up to > > > > stop at traffic lights instead of trying to go with flow and maybe > > > > time the lights. > > > > > > > > I'm curious about the studies and if there is anything about what > > > > kind of people benefit from ACT and from CBT and REBT. Maybe there > > > > something about me where REBT works better. > > > > > > > > And I found positive psychology to be a wonderful resource. It is > > > > such a big and active area in psychology right now. Everything > > from > > > > the flow work by Csikszentmihaly to Selgiman's Posttraumatic > > growth > > > > to Fredrickson's Broaden-and-Build, is all such good stuff. > > > > > > > > One thing about flow. Albert Ellis often talked about having an > > > > absorbing interest. Csikszentmihaly work on flow is very similar > > to > > > > Ellis idea of absorbing interest. I have always thought of ACT's > > > > values and committed actions as similar to this. But now I think > > > > there are some differences. The flow or absorbing interest is > > > > really something outside of yourself. It may reflect your values, > > > > but I think being absorbed in something that is more outside of > > > > yourself may give you something different than the ACT values and > > > > committed actions. When I read you guys' stuff on this, it just > > > > seems to self-absorbed or something and sometimes creepy. For this > > > > flow stuff, think more outside of yourself - maybe think something > > > > more altruistic - a contribution coming from you to the world > > > > outside of yourself. Check out Csikszentmihayly's works on flow. > > > > > > > > But I'm really grateful to the professionals on this list and will > > > > experiment with ACT resources excluding this list and I love REBT > > > > and positive psychology and so of course do a lot with that. I'll > > > > drop back in next year sometime to see how this list is going and > > > > see if the same people still dominate the list or if it changes. > > > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Bruce still want to help you out in noticing your thoughts and I want you to

start asking yourself this question when you read these thoughts out, " Bruce

Carlson you are always having this thought are you buying/hooking into it today

or not? "

I/Bruce Carson is having the thought " I have a difficult time with not talking

myself out of doing what I would like to be doing "

I/Bruce Carson is having the thought " I'm not bad at doing what I have to do "

I/Bruce Carson is having the thought " I'm not bad at doing what I'm told to by

other people. "

I/Bruce Carson is having the thought " I am not good at taking action on what I

would like to be doing. "

I/Bruce Carson is having the thought " This is my life going by "

I/Bruce Carson is having the thought " I'm not living it. "

I/Bruce Carson is having the thought " It could be that my expectations for what

constitutes a valued life are way too high? "

I/Bruce Carson is having the thought " I'm not good at taking in the simple

moments and being satisfied by them. "

I/Bruce Carson is having the thought " I have a lot of good things in my life

yet I'm still miserable "

I/Bruce Carson is having the thought " thanks to my fears and emotions. "

Bruce if you are choosing not to buy/hook into these thoughts today then I would

like you to do this next part. It's a diffusion exercise where you are

acknowledging and accepting your mind is having these thoughts

Thank you mind for the thought " I have a difficult time with not talking myself

out of doing what I would like to be doing "

Thank you mind for the thought " I'm not bad at doing what I have to do "

Thank you mind for the thought " I'm not bad at doing what I'm told to by other

people. "

Thank you mind for the thought " I am not good at taking action on what I would

like to be doing. "

Thank you mind for the thought " This is my life going by "

Thank you mind for the thought " I'm not living it. "

Thank you mind for the thought " It could be that my expectations for what

constitutes a valued life are way too high? "

Thank you mind for the thought " I'm not good at taking in the simple moments and

being satisfied by them. "

Thank you mind for the thought " I have a lot of good things in my life yet I'm

still miserable "

Thank you mind for the thought " thanks to my fears and emotions. "

Once you have done that, I would like you to then diffuse those a little

further. This next visualisation exercise is about learning to let go of the

thoughts. Imagine yourself sitting by a beautiful riverside on a lovely day,

watching the river flow by. Now imagine a leaf coming down the river closer to

you, when the leaf gets to you, visualise yourself placing the thought on the

leaf and then just watch it float passed and away from you until you cannot see

the leaf any more. Do this with every thought above and any new ones that come

up, even the ones that say, " This is stupid and won't make me feel better " .

Really persevere with this part, its important, no matter how silly your mind

tells you it is, keep doing it.

Any time today when you become aware of a thought, do these exercises, even

questions, evaluations, judgements, analysis and sensations are thoughts, as

thoughts come in all guises. Just try it out today Bruce and see how you do

with it, see if you notice resistance to being asked to do these exercises too,

make a note of it, what thoughts this resistance creates in you, what feelings

your having too it and then repeat the above exercises with the resistance too.

It takes a wee bit of practice and it does feel a bit weird to do to begin with,

but persevere it will eventually work, its subtle but you will notice a change

in time if you keep up this practice.

Bruce you say you are not good at taking in the simple moments and being

satisfied by them. And yet you have a lot of good things in your life and still

feel miserable thanks to your fears and emotions. That tells me you are still

buying into the thoughts, feelings and sensations your fears and anxiety

generate. I just wondered if you realise you can still have all these fears and

anxiety and still be able to enjoy the simple moments in life. You say

satisfied...I would not be just satisfied with simple moments...no one has asked

that of me and I wouldn't ask that of you, but I am willing to enjoy the simple

moments, so would you be willing?

So here is another question to think about and see what you mind does as you sit

with it. " Am I, Bruce Carlson willing to enjoy the simple moments in my life? "

Our brains can't help but answer questions...so just wait a little and see what

you mind choosing to think...and guess what I am then going to ask you to do

with these thoughts......you guessed it....the above exercises.

This is how vigilant you have to be in the beginning and trust me Bruce this

really does work. Its ACT in its simplest form and I find the simpler the

better for me personally...Just try it out, see how you go. Write it down, if

you find doing it in your head isn't working for you, that's what I do,

especially the really intense thoughts and feelings.

If you struggle note the struggle, write it down, then try again, if you

struggle again, note it down and then try again, but acknowledge, accept, let it

go as you go along, using the above exercises.

I hope you give this a try Bruce and I hope in time you come to see how powerful

these simple little exercises can be to helping you move forward. I also hope

you will be able to get to the point of being willing to enjoy the simple things

too.

With loving kindness

Jo

> > > > >

> > > > > > Hi all,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This is my observation - I haven't really done a good control

> > > > > > experiment on this.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But, I think this list has been really bad for me. A lot of

> > it may

> > > > > > be that it's a group of depressed anxious or embittered

> > people.

> > > > And

> > > > > > that might not be a good thing. Also it may be that the list

> > is

> > > > > > dominated by just a few people and some of these people have

> > an

> > > > axe

> > > > > > to grind. Or they feel anger and embitterment and what to

> > spread

> > > > > > that anger and embitterment to others.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I would be very curious to see a control study of the

> > efficacy of

> > > > > > participating in this list.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In some ways I'm puzzled. Studies have shown efficacy of ACT

> > and

> > > > > > ACT is one of the evidence based therapies. So it may be

> > that ACT

> > > > > > would be a big help too me if I just stick to the other ACT

> > > > > > resources and exclude this list. And I will now experiment

> > with

> > > > that.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > My observation now is that REBT for me is much more

> > efficacious.

> > > > > > Now there might be some things I can take from ACT to improve

> > > > REBT.

> > > > > > The diffusion. The mindfulness too. But I think I have to find

> > > > > > better mindful exercises for me. I'm very ADHD and the

> > sitting and

> > > > > > breathing exercises are not all that good for me. Vigorous

> > > > exercise

> > > > > > helps me become more mindful. I do yoga but I prefer the more

> > > > > > vigorous flow types than the types that hold ananas. When I go

> > > > > > about my business I practice mindfulness. For example while

> > > > > > driving. Most people are not mindful when driving and race

> > up to

> > > > > > stop at traffic lights instead of trying to go with flow and

> > maybe

> > > > > > time the lights.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'm curious about the studies and if there is anything about

> > what

> > > > > > kind of people benefit from ACT and from CBT and REBT. Maybe

> > there

> > > > > > something about me where REBT works better.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And I found positive psychology to be a wonderful resource.

> > It is

> > > > > > such a big and active area in psychology right now. Everything

> > > > from

> > > > > > the flow work by Csikszentmihaly to Selgiman's Posttraumatic

> > > > growth

> > > > > > to Fredrickson's Broaden-and-Build, is all such good stuff.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > One thing about flow. Albert Ellis often talked about having

> > an

> > > > > > absorbing interest. Csikszentmihaly work on flow is very

> > similar

> > > > to

> > > > > > Ellis idea of absorbing interest. I have always thought of

> > ACT's

> > > > > > values and committed actions as similar to this. But now I

> > think

> > > > > > there are some differences. The flow or absorbing interest is

> > > > > > really something outside of yourself. It may reflect your

> > values,

> > > > > > but I think being absorbed in something that is more outside

> > of

> > > > > > yourself may give you something different than the ACT

> > values and

> > > > > > committed actions. When I read you guys' stuff on this, it

> > just

> > > > > > seems to self-absorbed or something and sometimes creepy.

> > For this

> > > > > > flow stuff, think more outside of yourself - maybe think

> > something

> > > > > > more altruistic - a contribution coming from you to the world

> > > > > > outside of yourself. Check out Csikszentmihayly's works on

> > flow.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But I'm really grateful to the professionals on this list

> > and will

> > > > > > experiment with ACT resources excluding this list and I love

> > REBT

> > > > > > and positive psychology and so of course do a lot with that.

> > I'll

> > > > > > drop back in next year sometime to see how this list is

> > going and

> > > > > > see if the same people still dominate the list or if it

> > changes.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Cheers!

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I'm always feeling guilty that I haven't tried harder. But really, I'm

completely worn out by all this effort and there is not much spare

capacity left. If I struggle a lot harder I will become even more upset

and worried, but if I take more rest I will end up going nowhere. Either

way I'm tormented. I should go out more and meet new people, but I did

that for years and years of that and it only made a small difference to

how I felt. It was nice getting more girlfriends, though, but I never

became any more relaxed or happier. So why bother, it seems, but now I

have PSSD I have almost completely given up on relationships. I think I

might just as well keep staying in playing the guitar and some piano.

You are in catch 22, Bruce. Feeling bad about not trying harder will

drag you down, make you depressed, and it may even affect your sleep.

But if you are like me you won't be able to let yourself off the hook

either. Just try to accept things as they are and do what you can do. In

time I think you can heal that way. It isn't just all down to will power

and srtiving. To heal something has to give so that we can get a chance

to mend. Don't be too hard on yourself as persistsance comes from

within, despite setbacks and lack of progress. Just being ready to have

another gentle go tomorrow is moving forward.

Kv

> > > > >

> > > > > > Hi all,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This is my observation - I haven't really done a good

control

> > > > > > experiment on this.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But, I think this list has been really bad for me. A lot of

> > it may

> > > > > > be that it's a group of depressed anxious or embittered

> > people.

> > > > And

> > > > > > that might not be a good thing. Also it may be that the list

> > is

> > > > > > dominated by just a few people and some of these people have

> > an

> > > > axe

> > > > > > to grind. Or they feel anger and embitterment and what to

> > spread

> > > > > > that anger and embitterment to others.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I would be very curious to see a control study of the

> > efficacy of

> > > > > > participating in this list.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In some ways I'm puzzled. Studies have shown efficacy of ACT

> > and

> > > > > > ACT is one of the evidence based therapies. So it may be

> > that ACT

> > > > > > would be a big help too me if I just stick to the other ACT

> > > > > > resources and exclude this list. And I will now experiment

> > with

> > > > that.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > My observation now is that REBT for me is much more

> > efficacious.

> > > > > > Now there might be some things I can take from ACT to

improve

> > > > REBT.

> > > > > > The diffusion. The mindfulness too. But I think I have to

find

> > > > > > better mindful exercises for me. I'm very ADHD and the

> > sitting and

> > > > > > breathing exercises are not all that good for me. Vigorous

> > > > exercise

> > > > > > helps me become more mindful. I do yoga but I prefer the

more

> > > > > > vigorous flow types than the types that hold ananas. When I

go

> > > > > > about my business I practice mindfulness. For example while

> > > > > > driving. Most people are not mindful when driving and race

> > up to

> > > > > > stop at traffic lights instead of trying to go with flow and

> > maybe

> > > > > > time the lights.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'm curious about the studies and if there is anything about

> > what

> > > > > > kind of people benefit from ACT and from CBT and REBT. Maybe

> > there

> > > > > > something about me where REBT works better.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And I found positive psychology to be a wonderful resource.

> > It is

> > > > > > such a big and active area in psychology right now.

Everything

> > > > from

> > > > > > the flow work by Csikszentmihaly to Selgiman's Posttraumatic

> > > > growth

> > > > > > to Fredrickson's Broaden-and-Build, is all such good stuff.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > One thing about flow. Albert Ellis often talked about having

> > an

> > > > > > absorbing interest. Csikszentmihaly work on flow is very

> > similar

> > > > to

> > > > > > Ellis idea of absorbing interest. I have always thought of

> > ACT's

> > > > > > values and committed actions as similar to this. But now I

> > think

> > > > > > there are some differences. The flow or absorbing interest

is

> > > > > > really something outside of yourself. It may reflect your

> > values,

> > > > > > but I think being absorbed in something that is more outside

> > of

> > > > > > yourself may give you something different than the ACT

> > values and

> > > > > > committed actions. When I read you guys' stuff on this, it

> > just

> > > > > > seems to self-absorbed or something and sometimes creepy.

> > For this

> > > > > > flow stuff, think more outside of yourself - maybe think

> > something

> > > > > > more altruistic - a contribution coming from you to the

world

> > > > > > outside of yourself. Check out Csikszentmihayly's works on

> > flow.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But I'm really grateful to the professionals on this list

> > and will

> > > > > > experiment with ACT resources excluding this list and I love

> > REBT

> > > > > > and positive psychology and so of course do a lot with that.

> > I'll

> > > > > > drop back in next year sometime to see how this list is

> > going and

> > > > > > see if the same people still dominate the list or if it

> > changes.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Cheers!

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Jo, for your thorough and gracious reply to my questions. It's so helpful to me to see how you processed that particular hook: I can't back out. When that happens to me, it is sometimes difficult to know if I am doing myself a disservice by not backing down just because my mind says I shouldn't - or should I back down because it is the best thing to do under the circumstances? I see that you didn't let that potential conflict of "what's best for you" get in the way - you arrived at a decision and stuck with it. You were willing to live with your decision, even though you may have had a tiny doubt that maybe you shouldn't go. That's what it boils down to: Making a decision, after getting out of your mind and weighing all the odds, then going with it. Done. Trust it. It isn't always easy to sort out the chaff from the substance when it comes to mind-chatter. Sometimes, it is OK to listen to your mind when it tells you something. But mostly it's just chatter. The wisdom comes from knowing the difference, and I suspect that gets easier as you continue to practice ACT.

I mentioned my sister Jo before and all the pain/suffering she has to deal with. She just made the decision to give up her apartment and check into a nursing home for good. She nearly died a couple months ago, but got through that crisis. Now she is in constant pain and cannot walk at all. She has not accepted her condition or her pain and constantly rails and raves against it, bringing her family and caretakers into her misery. It makes it hard to be compassionate with her; at times, I just want to shake her into a modicum of acceptance! But I can't. I can only accept myself for who I am and her for who she is. I do not walk in her shoes so I cannot judge her, even though my mind wants to sometimes when I get impatient with her raging and feel so much distress myself because she is suffering so much. I so admire how you deal with your CPS, using your ACT skills. Kudos, Jo!!! You are an inspiration to me.

I so agree that we should take care of our teeth! While I had to spend the $ I set aside for three new crowns on Malkie the cat, I have found another way to take care of the expense (by going into debt, which I wasn't sure was an option, but it is - at a high interest rate!). We do what we must to take care of our health. And our teeth are an important part of that.

I loved your explanation of "want2begracious:" - and yes, it does sound like that is you being genuine; true to yourself and who you are. My name means "light" - so I can say "want2belight" - and I do like that. It will be a good reminder to take stuff lightly, even in the midst of struggle and pain. Thanks for the idea!

Helena

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 2:25:22 PMSubject: Re: Experiment with this list

Hi Helena,Interesting questions Helena and I will try and answer them the best I can. The question regarding my mind telling me I couldn't back out because it would mean letting people down...is just a very typical guilt line that my brain feeds me, its not one I typical get caught up in. Not unless I am in a spiral mode of negativity.I find guilt lines easy to identify as I was raised with parents who un-be-knowingly used guilt as a tool got get me and my siblings to behave. In fact as kids we learn really quickly how powerful the guilt tool is. I watch my 4 year old nephew use it with great skill on his parents to get what he wants, and I know he learned it from them too. 4 years old and he is a master at guilt already. It fascinates me how quickly our mind evolves once we understand how to use language. I constantly have to pull out of things I arrange when my CPS gets so overwhelming bad and that does mean I have to disappoint friends, family etc as a result. It is very easy to get caught up in a feeling of letting people down and myself down, but ultimately its not a deliberate plan to disappoint, its just one of those things that happens and sometimes it happens when I least want it too. My mind has a tendency to really run away with itself and worry and stress over any planned event and the CPS only adds to this and aggravates anxiety. Because its so intense and full on it is so easy to get caught up in my thoughts and feelings and forget to be mindful that I am just having thoughts. In relation to this occasion my mind was using an old trick that does catch me out from time to time, but this time I was mindful and aware and therefore able to not buy into it and diffuse from it. That is the only difference...I wasn't buying this time. I also knew I wasn't feeling like I was about to suddenly be crippled with pain. I was physically tensing up and felt pressure in my body and head, but this released a little after some guided meditation. I knew the day was going to take its toll but I felt deep down I could find a way to manage the day and I made the choice to be willing to accept the consequences of doing it, in that I could trigger a severe pain episode. If I truly felt I couldn't manage or cope physically with my day, believe me I would have had no hesitation in cancelling and yes I would feel the tinge of disappointment and regret but I would also have a choice in how I wanted to deal with that too. At the time I had the thought I asked myself one question Helena. I simple asked myself, "Well Jo you do this to yourself all the time, are you buying or not buying this thought this time". The answer was "No, not this time" and I placed the thought on a leaf and watch it float away down my diffusion river. If it came up again I repeated the process over and over...I just wasn't buying. I accept I have these thoughts and I chose this time not to let it influence me and instead proceeded with what I had planned. Even if the weather had been good Helena I could guarantee I would still have had that thought disguised in some other way.The challenges I have Helena are no more so than that of those with anxiety, stress and depression. The CPS does limit me and I have to be a bit realistic, just like everyone in this group is with depression, anxiety, social phobia etc. It would be easy to say I am different because I have CPS, but that is a thought I am choosing not to buy into. I am learning to balance things a bit better as I have realised I can accept a certain amount of physical and emotional pain from the CPS, my depression and my anxiety if I am willing, and I have also realised I am more willing when its something of value to me. A good example of this is I choose to go to the dentist and get my teeth checked cleaned and polished knowing full well this will trigger one of the worst pain episodes I can get. But I am willing to accept that pain because I want to keep my teeth healthy. I am 42 with no fillings and no decay, the last tooth I had out I was 12 years old and every three months I go to the dentist and basically ask for a pain episode. Why because I want to keep my teeth, to eat and to smile with and its one of many little things that I have that are healthy and I would like it to stay that way for as long as possible. If I gave into the challenges of my CPS and the link it has with my teeth, I would not brush them, and I would go to the dentist and eventually they would decay cause great pain and then fall out. So I willingly accepting my pain to achieve the results I want for me, because I value my health and my teeth.I hope the above answered your first question. If you are wondering how I am managing today. I am tired, aching all over, back pain, bit of head and facial pain, some serious nerve pain in my left ear, weak hands wrists and ankles, all pretty much as expected, but slept for a good 14hrs and I am spending my day just being kind to myself and not feeling any guilt for resting or sadness at needing too. I am just having a relaxing Sunday.In regards to your second question why I choose "Want2begracious" as my user name, well my full first name is Joanne and the meaning of Joanne is "God is Gracious". At the time of joining the Group I was aware of how much of me I had lost and how much I wanted to be me. I just wanted to be Joanne again, not Joanne with CPS, depression and anxiety....just Joanne. I looked up the meaning of gracious, defined as pleasantly kind, benevolent, good-hearted, good-natured, courteous and compassionate. I liked these qualities as they reminded me of my old self, before I became overwhelmed by my life, mind and emotions. So I choose the name want2begracious to remind me every day to be Joanne and to be the best Joanne I could be when connecting and communicating with the group and elsewhere. Its a name that reminds me how much I want to be me, the real me.Before I send any reply I always ask myself the question, was I gracious in my reply. Put another way I am asking was I being me, the real me, the genuine me.Hope this answers you questions HelenaWith loving kindnessJo > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > > This is my observation - I haven't really done a good control > > > > > experiment on this. > > > > > > > > > > But, I think this list has been really bad for me. A lot of it may > > > > > be that it's a group of depressed anxious or embittered people. > > > And > > > > > that might not be a good thing. Also it may be that the list is > > > > > dominated by just a few people and some of these people have an > > > axe > > > > > to grind. Or they feel anger and embitterment and what to spread > > > > > that anger and embitterment to others. > > > > > > > > > > I would be very curious to see a control study of the efficacy of > > > > > participating in this list. > > > > > > > > > > In some ways I'm puzzled. Studies have shown efficacy of ACT and > > > > > ACT is one of the evidence based therapies. So it may be that ACT > > > > > would be a big help too me if I just stick to the other ACT > > > > > resources and exclude this list. And I will now experiment with > > > that. > > > > > > > > > > My observation now is that REBT for me is much more efficacious. > > > > > Now there might be some things I can take from ACT to improve > > > REBT . > > > > > The diffusion. The mindfulness too. But I think I have to find > > > > > better mindful exercises for me. I'm very ADHD and the sitting and > > > > > breathing exercises are not all that good for me. Vigorous > > > exercise > > > > > helps me become more mindful. I do yoga but I prefer the more > > > > > vigorous flow types than the types that hold ananas . When I go > > > > > about my business I practice mindfulness. For example while > > > > > driving. Most people are not mindful when driving and race up to > > > > > stop at traffic lights instead of trying to go with flow and maybe > > > > > time the lights. > > > > > > > > > > I'm curious about the studies and if there is anything about what > > > > > kind of people benefit from ACT and from CBT and REBT . Maybe there > > > > > something about me where REBT works better. > > > > > > > > > > And I found positive psychology to be a wonderful resource. It is > > > > > such a big and active area in psychology right now. Everything > > > from > > > > > the flow work by Csikszentmihaly to Selgiman's Posttraumatic > > > growth > > > > > to Fredrickson's Broaden-and-Build, is all such good stuff. > > > > > > > > > > One thing about flow. Albert Ellis often talked about having an > > > > > absorbing interest. Csikszentmihaly work on flow is very similar > > > to > > > > > Ellis idea of absorbing interest. I have always thought of ACT's > > > > > values and committed actions as similar to this. But now I think > > > > > there are some differences. The flow or absorbing interest is > > > > > really something outside of yourself. It may reflect your values, > > > > > but I think being absorbed in something that is more outside of > > > > > yourself may give you something different than the ACT values and > > > > > committed actions. When I read you guys' stuff on this, it just > > > > > seems to self-absorbed or something and sometimes creepy. For this > > > > > flow stuff, think more outside of yourself - maybe think something > > > > > more altruistic - a contribution coming from you to the world > > > > > outside of yourself. Check out Csikszentmihayly's works on flow. > > > > > > > > > > But I'm really grateful to the professionals on this list and will > > > > > experiment with ACT resources excluding this list and I love REBT > > > > > and positive psychology and so of course do a lot with that. I'll > > > > > drop back in next year sometime to see how this list is going and > > > > > see if the same people still dominate the list or if it changes. > > > > > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>