Guest guest Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 I'm pissed frankly. But it feels like a good anger. I woke up today remembering my life so full and how empty it is today. I am sad and angry about a lot lately and I haven't been acknowledging the anger. Again, this is a good anger, like I give a damn anger. Not like the kind they tell you to be afraid of in AA! To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 6:33 AM Subject: Re: Never Enough Hi Terry, I find your message really interesting, not in relation to the media messaging, but more a wonderment as to what went throught your own mind, what thoughts and feelings were you having to have triggered a physical response to the relating headline. I am not asking you to tell me, but I wonder how long did you sit mindfully exploring your own response and the language and feelings you mind chose to express to you at this time. It is clear you had a strong response and it seems you can relate very personally to it. I wonder are you able to see the thought/thoughts that triggered this strong physical stomach tightening sensation, and were you able to carry out a little defusion on them and release that tightened sensation and carry forward today, not being annoyed, angry, upset, hurt and sad. Whatever you read is not important, but what is important is that it had raised the issue for you persoanlly of being 'Never Enough'. I believe everyone within this group will be able to relate to the feeling, thought and sensation, and we will all deal with it differently, but I care and I am interested Terry in how you have reacted and I wonder about what your thoughts are triggering in you today and how you are working with them today, as I would like you to have a good day. With loving kindness Jo > > I just checked the headlines for the Olympics and read: "Phelps Suffers Stinging Loss" Is that what's meant in part by this "negativity bias"? > Gee, whatever it is, I noticed my stomach tightened reading it...talk about "never good enough" media messaging. Pretty sad. > > > terry > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 I don't know what has led to my feeling feisty today but I like it. I am remembering the fight I had in me and it's been beaten down to a pulp in recent decade of my life. I fell way off the grid. Lost jobs and so forth. So it's a different scale than most here, who still have income, jobs.In the recovery community groups I go to, there is a lot of talk about anger being a sign of too much ego and leading up to a drink. I think it can if you fuse with it and have the anger be the end of the story. I also notice that in general the men in the program experience anger differently than women. For some women (myself included), it's very empowering to allow for anger. Unfortunately, these nuances aren't elaborated upon in meetings and so anger gets lumped into the very unbecoming, something you really want to get rid of NOW category...a sign you're not working a spiritual healthy program, praying enough, helping others enough..blah blah...part of the seven deadly sins crap. Sorry I'm so whiny about twelve steps. The larger point is I like my anger in terms of the I give a hoot about my life feeling that is coming back for me today. And I'm also fed up with giving others so much power to decide what it is safe or cool to feel or not feel. Fed up with buying into the thought not enough. I like the idea of having the anger speak to me...thanks for that.terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 9:19 AM Subject: Re: Never Enough Hi Terry, I am sorry to hear that you have been feeling so sad and angry of late and that you feel today that your life is not as full as it once was. At least today you are acknowledging you are angry and sad and hopefully you will be able to find a way to defuse from the thoughts that created it and still work toward your valued path. Interestingly I never looked at anger in differing froms, I always saw anger as just that. It was what lead to the anger that I saw as the differering variable, which was the one to watch out for and be mindful of. Maybe you will have a window of time today Terry to sit with your sadness and anger and give it time to speak to you so that you can mindfully establish what is truly leading you to feeling this way(thoughts)about your life lately and hopefully start defusing from it. With loving kindness Jo > > > > I just checked the headlines for the Olympics and read: "Phelps Suffers Stinging Loss" Is that what's meant in part by this "negativity bias"? > > Gee, whatever it is, I noticed my stomach tightened reading it...talk about "never good enough" media messaging. Pretty sad. > > > > > > terry > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 Being able to feel the anger and own the feeling rather than suppressing it is very healthy, IMO. Being open to what the anger is saying to you is very wise. That you realize you give away your power rather than blaming others for taking it from you is also wise. Seems you are on the right track.Phelps may have suffered a "stinging loss" but he is no loser. He put himself on the line in order to follow his values. He went for it. That's all any of us can do and I find inspiration from that, no matter how the media spins it.HelenaTo: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 12:43:55 PMSubject: Re: Re: Never Enough I don't know what has led to my feeling feisty today but I like it. I am remembering the fight I had in me and it's been beaten down to a pulp in recent decade of my life. I fell way off the grid. Lost jobs and so forth. So it's a different scale than most here, who still have income, jobs.In the recovery community groups I go to, there is a lot of talk about anger being a sign of too much ego and leading up to a drink. I think it can if you fuse with it and have the anger be the end of the story. I also notice that in general the men in the program experience anger differently than women. For some women (myself included), it's very empowering to allow for anger. Unfortunately, these nuances aren't elaborated upon in meetings and so anger gets lumped into the very unbecoming, something you really want to get rid of NOW category...a sign you're not working a spiritual healthy program, praying enough, helping others enough..blah blah...part of the seven deadly sins crap. Sorry I'm so whiny about twelve steps. The larger point is I like my anger in terms of the I give a hoot about my life feeling that is coming back for me today. And I'm also fed up with giving others so much power to decide what it is safe or cool to feel or not feel. Fed up with buying into the thought not enough. I like the idea of having the anger speak to me...thanks for that.terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 9:19 AM Subject: Re: Never Enough Hi Terry, I am sorry to hear that you have been feeling so sad and angry of late and that you feel today that your life is not as full as it once was. At least today you are acknowledging you are angry and sad and hopefully you will be able to find a way to defuse from the thoughts that created it and still work toward your valued path. Interestingly I never looked at anger in differing froms, I always saw anger as just that. It was what lead to the anger that I saw as the differering variable, which was the one to watch out for and be mindful of. Maybe you will have a window of time today Terry to sit with your sadness and anger and give it time to speak to you so that you can mindfully establish what is truly leading you to feeling this way(thoughts)about your life lately and hopefully start defusing from it. With loving kindness Jo > > > > I just checked the headlines for the Olympics and read: "Phelps Suffers Stinging Loss" Is that what's meant in part by this "negativity bias"? > > Gee, whatever it is, I noticed my stomach tightened reading it...talk about "never good enough" media messaging. Pretty sad. > > > > > > terry > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 Thanks, yeah it's about just allowing whatever is there. I tend to skip that step. I think when Steve said if you have a lot suffering, make sure to get acceptance and defusion full on he wasn't kidding. It's actually much more than anger I'm feeling today. Words get in the way. I've felt that sort of anger that is more like really "I don't want to" kind of anger and that's not what I'm feeling today. I don't know what to call it..but It's a positive energy force. I am ready to embrace whatever it is, listen to it. I suppose that's what Phelps did. I don't know how folks get the courage to be in the spot-light like that. I have enough trouble with imagined spot-lights, fusion with imagined/anticipated/feared judgment. He's such a hero to have come back. I was listening to him in an interview a few days ago about how he just woke up one day after a long bout with depression, partying, floundering around and made a choice to "let's do it". I thought that was fascinating and inspiring. I like the distinction made earlier between self-empowerment and self-esteem and am wondering if you or others have thoughts on this(?)I'm thinking self-empowerment is a bit like honoring where we are and choosing "just because" whereas self-esteem is more of a fused"I'm all that and more" kind of thing...or rather, focusing on having self-esteem as a goal tends to call up the I/you comparison/judging/evaluating mind.Anyway, thanks for this conversation. It's very important for me. Have a great day and enjoy the Olympics if you're tuning in!:-)terry To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 10:16 AM Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough Being able to feel the anger and own the feeling rather than suppressing it is very healthy, IMO. Being open to what the anger is saying to you is very wise. That you realize you give away your power rather than blaming others for taking it from you is also wise. Seems you are on the right track.Phelps may have suffered a "stinging loss" but he is no loser. He put himself on the line in order to follow his values. He went for it. That's all any of us can do and I find inspiration from that, no matter how the media spins it.HelenaTo: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 12:43:55 PMSubject: Re: Re: Never Enough I don't know what has led to my feeling feisty today but I like it. I am remembering the fight I had in me and it's been beaten down to a pulp in recent decade of my life. I fell way off the grid. Lost jobs and so forth. So it's a different scale than most here, who still have income, jobs.In the recovery community groups I go to, there is a lot of talk about anger being a sign of too much ego and leading up to a drink. I think it can if you fuse with it and have the anger be the end of the story. I also notice that in general the men in the program experience anger differently than women. For some women (myself included), it's very empowering to allow for anger. Unfortunately, these nuances aren't elaborated upon in meetings and so anger gets lumped into the very unbecoming, something you really want to get rid of NOW category...a sign you're not working a spiritual healthy program, praying enough, helping others enough..blah blah...part of the seven deadly sins crap. Sorry I'm so whiny about twelve steps. The larger point is I like my anger in terms of the I give a hoot about my life feeling that is coming back for me today. And I'm also fed up with giving others so much power to decide what it is safe or cool to feel or not feel. Fed up with buying into the thought not enough. I like the idea of having the anger speak to me...thanks for that.terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 9:19 AM Subject: Re: Never Enough Hi Terry, I am sorry to hear that you have been feeling so sad and angry of late and that you feel today that your life is not as full as it once was. At least today you are acknowledging you are angry and sad and hopefully you will be able to find a way to defuse from the thoughts that created it and still work toward your valued path. Interestingly I never looked at anger in differing froms, I always saw anger as just that. It was what lead to the anger that I saw as the differering variable, which was the one to watch out for and be mindful of. Maybe you will have a window of time today Terry to sit with your sadness and anger and give it time to speak to you so that you can mindfully establish what is truly leading you to feeling this way(thoughts)about your life lately and hopefully start defusing from it. With loving kindness Jo > > > > I just checked the headlines for the Olympics and read: "Phelps Suffers Stinging Loss" Is that what's meant in part by this "negativity bias"? > > Gee, whatever it is, I noticed my stomach tightened reading it...talk about "never good enough" media messaging. Pretty sad. > > > > > > terry > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 Oh, dear..just caught two more headlines:"Phelps, what happened?" And " Phelps confronts swimming failure"Get ready for dime store tedious explorations as to why things went so horribly wrong. I think I never realized just how bombarded we are with this stuff! I guess you just gotta laugh! To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 12:59 PM Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough Thanks, yeah it's about just allowing whatever is there. I tend to skip that step. I think when Steve said if you have a lot suffering, make sure to get acceptance and defusion full on he wasn't kidding. It's actually much more than anger I'm feeling today. Words get in the way. I've felt that sort of anger that is more like really "I don't want to" kind of anger and that's not what I'm feeling today. I don't know what to call it..but It's a positive energy force. I am ready to embrace whatever it is, listen to it. I suppose that's what Phelps did. I don't know how folks get the courage to be in the spot-light like that. I have enough trouble with imagined spot-lights, fusion with imagined/anticipated/feared judgment. He's such a hero to have come back. I was listening to him in an interview a few days ago about how he just woke up one day after a long bout with depression, partying, floundering around and made a choice to "let's do it". I thought that was fascinating and inspiring. I like the distinction made earlier between self-empowerment and self-esteem and am wondering if you or others have thoughts on this(?)I'm thinking self-empowerment is a bit like honoring where we are and choosing "just because" whereas self-esteem is more of a fused"I'm all that and more" kind of thing...or rather, focusing on having self-esteem as a goal tends to call up the I/you comparison/judging/evaluating mind.Anyway, thanks for this conversation. It's very important for me. Have a great day and enjoy the Olympics if you're tuning in!:-)terry To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 10:16 AM Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough Being able to feel the anger and own the feeling rather than suppressing it is very healthy, IMO. Being open to what the anger is saying to you is very wise. That you realize you give away your power rather than blaming others for taking it from you is also wise. Seems you are on the right track.Phelps may have suffered a "stinging loss" but he is no loser. He put himself on the line in order to follow his values. He went for it. That's all any of us can do and I find inspiration from that, no matter how the media spins it.HelenaTo: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 12:43:55 PMSubject: Re: Re: Never Enough I don't know what has led to my feeling feisty today but I like it. I am remembering the fight I had in me and it's been beaten down to a pulp in recent decade of my life. I fell way off the grid. Lost jobs and so forth. So it's a different scale than most here, who still have income, jobs.In the recovery community groups I go to, there is a lot of talk about anger being a sign of too much ego and leading up to a drink. I think it can if you fuse with it and have the anger be the end of the story. I also notice that in general the men in the program experience anger differently than women. For some women (myself included), it's very empowering to allow for anger. Unfortunately, these nuances aren't elaborated upon in meetings and so anger gets lumped into the very unbecoming, something you really want to get rid of NOW category...a sign you're not working a spiritual healthy program, praying enough, helping others enough..blah blah...part of the seven deadly sins crap. Sorry I'm so whiny about twelve steps. The larger point is I like my anger in terms of the I give a hoot about my life feeling that is coming back for me today. And I'm also fed up with giving others so much power to decide what it is safe or cool to feel or not feel. Fed up with buying into the thought not enough. I like the idea of having the anger speak to me...thanks for that.terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 9:19 AM Subject: Re: Never Enough Hi Terry, I am sorry to hear that you have been feeling so sad and angry of late and that you feel today that your life is not as full as it once was. At least today you are acknowledging you are angry and sad and hopefully you will be able to find a way to defuse from the thoughts that created it and still work toward your valued path. Interestingly I never looked at anger in differing froms, I always saw anger as just that. It was what lead to the anger that I saw as the differering variable, which was the one to watch out for and be mindful of. Maybe you will have a window of time today Terry to sit with your sadness and anger and give it time to speak to you so that you can mindfully establish what is truly leading you to feeling this way(thoughts)about your life lately and hopefully start defusing from it. With loving kindness Jo > > > > I just checked the headlines for the Olympics and read: "Phelps Suffers Stinging Loss" Is that what's meant in part by this "negativity bias"? > > Gee, whatever it is, I noticed my stomach tightened reading it...talk about "never good enough" media messaging. Pretty sad. > > > > > > terry > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 Headlines schmedlines! Ha!Anything short of a medal placement is considered a failure by the press, and maybe even by Phelps (at first). They have to report the news and have to do it in a sensational way to get attention. That's the way things are, like it or not. I just let it roll off of me.Concerning your other question about the distinction between self-empowerment and self-esteem: I haven't given it much thought, to be honest. I think self-empowerment and self-esteem (as in feeling healthfully good about yourself) naturally become a part of who you are when you focus on living your life according to your values.I am enjoying the Olympics, especially the women's gymnastics (my favorite). When I was younger, I thought that if I really tried hard, I could have that kind of healthy, toned body. Not any more! But I can be the best me I can be at this age (even though I'm not - hahaha! - but I'm "good enough" and I do try to live healthy).HelenaTo: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 4:13:20 PMSubject: Re: Re: Never Enough Oh, dear..just caught two more headlines:"Phelps, what happened?" And " Phelps confronts swimming failure"Get ready for dime store tedious explorations as to why things went so horribly wrong. I think I never realized just how bombarded we are with this stuff! I guess you just gotta laugh! To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 12:59 PM Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough Thanks, yeah it's about just allowing whatever is there. I tend to skip that step. I think when Steve said if you have a lot suffering, make sure to get acceptance and defusion full on he wasn't kidding. It's actually much more than anger I'm feeling today. Words get in the way. I've felt that sort of anger that is more like really "I don't want to" kind of anger and that's not what I'm feeling today. I don't know what to call it..but It's a positive energy force. I am ready to embrace whatever it is, listen to it. I suppose that's what Phelps did. I don't know how folks get the courage to be in the spot-light like that. I have enough trouble with imagined spot-lights, fusion with imagined/anticipated/feared judgment. He's such a hero to have come back. I was listening to him in an interview a few days ago about how he just woke up one day after a long bout with depression, partying, floundering around and made a choice to "let's do it". I thought that was fascinating and inspiring. I like the distinction made earlier between self-empowerment and self-esteem and am wondering if you or others have thoughts on this(?)I'm thinking self-empowerment is a bit like honoring where we are and choosing "just because" whereas self-esteem is more of a fused"I'm all that and more" kind of thing...or rather, focusing on having self-esteem as a goal tends to call up the I/you comparison/judging/evaluating mind.Anyway, thanks for this conversation. It's very important for me. Have a great day and enjoy the Olympics if you're tuning in!:-)terry To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 10:16 AM Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough Being able to feel the anger and own the feeling rather than suppressing it is very healthy, IMO. Being open to what the anger is saying to you is very wise. That you realize you give away your power rather than blaming others for taking it from you is also wise. Seems you are on the right track.Phelps may have suffered a "stinging loss" but he is no loser. He put himself on the line in order to follow his values. He went for it. That's all any of us can do and I find inspiration from that, no matter how the media spins it.HelenaTo: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 12:43:55 PMSubject: Re: Re: Never Enough I don't know what has led to my feeling feisty today but I like it. I am remembering the fight I had in me and it's been beaten down to a pulp in recent decade of my life. I fell way off the grid. Lost jobs and so forth. So it's a different scale than most here, who still have income, jobs.In the recovery community groups I go to, there is a lot of talk about anger being a sign of too much ego and leading up to a drink. I think it can if you fuse with it and have the anger be the end of the story. I also notice that in general the men in the program experience anger differently than women. For some women (myself included), it's very empowering to allow for anger. Unfortunately, these nuances aren't elaborated upon in meetings and so anger gets lumped into the very unbecoming, something you really want to get rid of NOW category...a sign you're not working a spiritual healthy program, praying enough, helping others enough..blah blah...part of the seven deadly sins crap. Sorry I'm so whiny about twelve steps. The larger point is I like my anger in terms of the I give a hoot about my life feeling that is coming back for me today. And I'm also fed up with giving others so much power to decide what it is safe or cool to feel or not feel. Fed up with buying into the thought not enough. I like the idea of having the anger speak to me...thanks for that.terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 9:19 AM Subject: Re: Never Enough Hi Terry, I am sorry to hear that you have been feeling so sad and angry of late and that you feel today that your life is not as full as it once was. At least today you are acknowledging you are angry and sad and hopefully you will be able to find a way to defuse from the thoughts that created it and still work toward your valued path. Interestingly I never looked at anger in differing froms, I always saw anger as just that. It was what lead to the anger that I saw as the differering variable, which was the one to watch out for and be mindful of. Maybe you will have a window of time today Terry to sit with your sadness and anger and give it time to speak to you so that you can mindfully establish what is truly leading you to feeling this way(thoughts)about your life lately and hopefully start defusing from it. With loving kindness Jo > > > > I just checked the headlines for the Olympics and read: "Phelps Suffers Stinging Loss" Is that what's meant in part by this "negativity bias"? > > Gee, whatever it is, I noticed my stomach tightened reading it...talk about "never good enough" media messaging. Pretty sad. > > > > > > terry > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 When I watch the Olympics, I see a bunch of people doing something with a purpose and pursuing excellence, something I am totally not doing. They seem happy and healthy, which makes me feel worse about myself. Of course, the media coverage plays this up relentlessly.And they're certainly in much better physical shape than me. Maybe I'll go ride my bike today...The vast majority of athletes have to be content with just being there, they're not going to win a medal. I guess that's true for me, too. Living and participating must be its own reward.Bruce Headlines schmedlines! Ha!Anything short of a medal placement is considered a failure by the press, and maybe even by Phelps (at first). They have to report the news and have to do it in a sensational way to get attention. That's the way things are, like it or not. I just let it roll off of me.Concerning your other question about the distinction between self-empowerment and self-esteem: I haven't given it much thought, to be honest. I think self-empowerment and self-esteem (as in feeling healthfully good about yourself) naturally become a part of who you are when you focus on living your life according to your values.I am enjoying the Olympics, especially the women's gymnastics (my favorite). When I was younger, I thought that if I really tried hard, I could have that kind of healthy, toned body. Not any more! But I can be the best me I can be at this age (even though I'm not - hahaha! - but I'm "good enough" and I do try to live healthy).HelenaTo: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 4:13:20 PMSubject: Re: Re: Never Enough Oh, dear..just caught two more headlines:"Phelps, what happened?" And " Phelps confronts swimming failure"Get ready for dime store tedious explorations as to why things went so horribly wrong. I think I never realized just how bombarded we are with this stuff! I guess you just gotta laugh! To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 12:59 PM Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough Thanks, yeah it's about just allowing whatever is there. I tend to skip that step. I think when Steve said if you have a lot suffering, make sure to get acceptance and defusion full on he wasn't kidding. It's actually much more than anger I'm feeling today. Words get in the way. I've felt that sort of anger that is more like really "I don't want to" kind of anger and that's not what I'm feeling today. I don't know what to call it..but It's a positive energy force. I am ready to embrace whatever it is, listen to it. I suppose that's what Phelps did. I don't know how folks get the courage to be in the spot-light like that. I have enough trouble with imagined spot-lights, fusion with imagined/anticipated/feared judgment. He's such a hero to have come back. I was listening to him in an interview a few days ago about how he just woke up one day after a long bout with depression, partying, floundering around and made a choice to "let's do it". I thought that was fascinating and inspiring. I like the distinction made earlier between self-empowerment and self-esteem and am wondering if you or others have thoughts on this(?)I'm thinking self-empowerment is a bit like honoring where we are and choosing "just because" whereas self-esteem is more of a fused"I'm all that and more" kind of thing...or rather, focusing on having self-esteem as a goal tends to call up the I/you comparison/judging/evaluating mind.Anyway, thanks for this conversation. It's very important for me. Have a great day and enjoy the Olympics if you're tuning in!:-)terry To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 10:16 AM Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough Being able to feel the anger and own the feeling rather than suppressing it is very healthy, IMO. Being open to what the anger is saying to you is very wise. That you realize you give away your power rather than blaming others for taking it from you is also wise. Seems you are on the right track.Phelps may have suffered a "stinging loss" but he is no loser. He put himself on the line in order to follow his values. He went for it. That's all any of us can do and I find inspiration from that, no matter how the media spins it.HelenaTo: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 12:43:55 PMSubject: Re: Re: Never Enough I don't know what has led to my feeling feisty today but I like it. I am remembering the fight I had in me and it's been beaten down to a pulp in recent decade of my life. I fell way off the grid. Lost jobs and so forth. So it's a different scale than most here, who still have income, jobs.In the recovery community groups I go to, there is a lot of talk about anger being a sign of too much ego and leading up to a drink. I think it can if you fuse with it and have the anger be the end of the story. I also notice that in general the men in the program experience anger differently than women. For some women (myself included), it's very empowering to allow for anger. Unfortunately, these nuances aren't elaborated upon in meetings and so anger gets lumped into the very unbecoming, something you really want to get rid of NOW category...a sign you're not working a spiritual healthy program, praying enough, helping others enough..blah blah...part of the seven deadly sins crap. Sorry I'm so whiny about twelve steps. The larger point is I like my anger in terms of the I give a hoot about my life feeling that is coming back for me today. And I'm also fed up with giving others so much power to decide what it is safe or cool to feel or not feel. Fed up with buying into the thought not enough. I like the idea of having the anger speak to me...thanks for that.terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 9:19 AM Subject: Re: Never Enough Hi Terry, I am sorry to hear that you have been feeling so sad and angry of late and that you feel today that your life is not as full as it once was. At least today you are acknowledging you are angry and sad and hopefully you will be able to find a way to defuse from the thoughts that created it and still work toward your valued path. Interestingly I never looked at anger in differing froms, I always saw anger as just that. It was what lead to the anger that I saw as the differering variable, which was the one to watch out for and be mindful of. Maybe you will have a window of time today Terry to sit with your sadness and anger and give it time to speak to you so that you can mindfully establish what is truly leading you to feeling this way(thoughts)about your life lately and hopefully start defusing from it. With loving kindness Jo > > > > I just checked the headlines for the Olympics and read: "Phelps Suffers Stinging Loss" Is that what's meant in part by this "negativity bias"? > > Gee, whatever it is, I noticed my stomach tightened reading it...talk about "never good enough" media messaging. Pretty sad. > > > > > > terry > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 Bruce, you are "good enough" are you not? Believing that I was indeed good enough in spite of my faults and limitations was a major breakthrough for me in ACT. It doesn't mean that I have given up on myself in any way. It simply means that I fully accept myself for who I am, what I am, today. I am a work in progress. I am not perfection. It has been so freeing to feel that I am good enough, even if it falls short of what I "want" to be or think I "should" be. That's why I often use the term "good enough" here, even though I am a perfectionist by nature. Being good enough ... for this life ... for now, in this moment. That's all I have. That's all any of us has.You have a purpose and you are pursuing excellence in your own way, even if you are not an Olympian. You could be healthy and happy with what you ARE doing instead of comparing yourself with others or with some idealized version of yourself, where you will always fall short.I happen to think you are awesome. For being here, for letting us in, for keeping on. For being a great dad (which you've given us a peek at). HelenaTo: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 4:48:42 PMSubject: Re: Re: Never Enough When I watch the Olympics, I see a bunch of people doing something with a purpose and pursuing excellence, something I am totally not doing. They seem happy and healthy, which makes me feel worse about myself. Of course, the media coverage plays this up relentlessly.And they're certainly in much better physical shape than me. Maybe I'll go ride my bike today...The vast majority of athletes have to be content with just being there, they're not going to win a medal. I guess that's true for me, too. Living and participating must be its own reward.Bruce Headlines schmedlines! Ha!Anything short of a medal placement is considered a failure by the press, and maybe even by Phelps (at first). They have to report the news and have to do it in a sensational way to get attention. That's the way things are, like it or not. I just let it roll off of me.Concerning your other question about the distinction between self-empowerment and self-esteem: I haven't given it much thought, to be honest. I think self-empowerment and self-esteem (as in feeling healthfully good about yourself) naturally become a part of who you are when you focus on living your life according to your values.I am enjoying the Olympics, especially the women's gymnastics (my favorite). When I was younger, I thought that if I really tried hard, I could have that kind of healthy, toned body. Not any more! But I can be the best me I can be at this age (even though I'm not - hahaha! - but I'm "good enough" and I do try to live healthy).HelenaTo: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 4:13:20 PMSubject: Re: Re: Never Enough Oh, dear..just caught two more headlines:"Phelps, what happened?" And " Phelps confronts swimming failure"Get ready for dime store tedious explorations as to why things went so horribly wrong. I think I never realized just how bombarded we are with this stuff! I guess you just gotta laugh! To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 12:59 PM Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough Thanks, yeah it's about just allowing whatever is there. I tend to skip that step. I think when Steve said if you have a lot suffering, make sure to get acceptance and defusion full on he wasn't kidding. It's actually much more than anger I'm feeling today. Words get in the way. I've felt that sort of anger that is more like really "I don't want to" kind of anger and that's not what I'm feeling today. I don't know what to call it..but It's a positive energy force. I am ready to embrace whatever it is, listen to it. I suppose that's what Phelps did. I don't know how folks get the courage to be in the spot-light like that. I have enough trouble with imagined spot-lights, fusion with imagined/anticipated/feared judgment. He's such a hero to have come back. I was listening to him in an interview a few days ago about how he just woke up one day after a long bout with depression, partying, floundering around and made a choice to "let's do it". I thought that was fascinating and inspiring. I like the distinction made earlier between self-empowerment and self-esteem and am wondering if you or others have thoughts on this(?)I'm thinking self-empowerment is a bit like honoring where we are and choosing "just because" whereas self-esteem is more of a fused"I'm all that and more" kind of thing...or rather, focusing on having self-esteem as a goal tends to call up the I/you comparison/judging/evaluating mind.Anyway, thanks for this conversation. It's very important for me. Have a great day and enjoy the Olympics if you're tuning in!:-)terry To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 10:16 AM Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough Being able to feel the anger and own the feeling rather than suppressing it is very healthy, IMO. Being open to what the anger is saying to you is very wise. That you realize you give away your power rather than blaming others for taking it from you is also wise. Seems you are on the right track.Phelps may have suffered a "stinging loss" but he is no loser. He put himself on the line in order to follow his values. He went for it. That's all any of us can do and I find inspiration from that, no matter how the media spins it.HelenaTo: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 12:43:55 PMSubject: Re: Re: Never Enough I don't know what has led to my feeling feisty today but I like it. I am remembering the fight I had in me and it's been beaten down to a pulp in recent decade of my life. I fell way off the grid. Lost jobs and so forth. So it's a different scale than most here, who still have income, jobs.In the recovery community groups I go to, there is a lot of talk about anger being a sign of too much ego and leading up to a drink. I think it can if you fuse with it and have the anger be the end of the story. I also notice that in general the men in the program experience anger differently than women. For some women (myself included), it's very empowering to allow for anger. Unfortunately, these nuances aren't elaborated upon in meetings and so anger gets lumped into the very unbecoming, something you really want to get rid of NOW category...a sign you're not working a spiritual healthy program, praying enough, helping others enough..blah blah...part of the seven deadly sins crap. Sorry I'm so whiny about twelve steps. The larger point is I like my anger in terms of the I give a hoot about my life feeling that is coming back for me today. And I'm also fed up with giving others so much power to decide what it is safe or cool to feel or not feel. Fed up with buying into the thought not enough. I like the idea of having the anger speak to me...thanks for that.terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 9:19 AM Subject: Re: Never Enough Hi Terry, I am sorry to hear that you have been feeling so sad and angry of late and that you feel today that your life is not as full as it once was. At least today you are acknowledging you are angry and sad and hopefully you will be able to find a way to defuse from the thoughts that created it and still work toward your valued path. Interestingly I never looked at anger in differing froms, I always saw anger as just that. It was what lead to the anger that I saw as the differering variable, which was the one to watch out for and be mindful of. Maybe you will have a window of time today Terry to sit with your sadness and anger and give it time to speak to you so that you can mindfully establish what is truly leading you to feeling this way(thoughts)about your life lately and hopefully start defusing from it. With loving kindness Jo > > > > I just checked the headlines for the Olympics and read: "Phelps Suffers Stinging Loss" Is that what's meant in part by this "negativity bias"? > > Gee, whatever it is, I noticed my stomach tightened reading it...talk about "never good enough" media messaging. Pretty sad. > > > > > > terry > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 You know, that "let it roll of thing"..I never got that gene! I like it when you use it here. I can feel it rolling along!I'm finding almost all the Olympic activities interesting this year. Even the ones you'd think would be yawners like badminton. I don't know if I have a favorite. Maybe diving. And enjoying the cyclists as they wind their way through narrow streets canopied with lush, over-grown trees and then moments later appear to emerge into an urban area. .I've never been to London, so just taking in a bit of the scenery is a treat. The healthy living value is strong for me, and yet I've sabotaged it so much you'd never know it. I continue to be amazed at how much better I feel when I just tweak things ever so slightly, such as with less carbs, or take a little walk. Hmm.. wonder about this story about sabotaging things. Think I just caught myself in something here!BTW, I think the emotion I was labeling "anger" earlier here is more connected to creative hopelessness kind of "F__this nonsense"--as in so tired of trying to prove things as my life whittles away. Still letting it bubble up, sensing some really valuable stuff there. I so appreciate the space afforded here to just let it be there. terry To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 1:29 PM Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough Headlines schmedlines! Ha!Anything short of a medal placement is considered a failure by the press, and maybe even by Phelps (at first). They have to report the news and have to do it in a sensational way to get attention. That's the way things are, like it or not. I just let it roll off of me.Concerning your other question about the distinction between self-empowerment and self-esteem: I haven't given it much thought, to be honest. I think self-empowerment and self-esteem (as in feeling healthfully good about yourself) naturally become a part of who you are when you focus on living your life according to your values.I am enjoying the Olympics, especially the women's gymnastics (my favorite). When I was younger, I thought that if I really tried hard, I could have that kind of healthy, toned body. Not any more! But I can be the best me I can be at this age (even though I'm not - hahaha! - but I'm "good enough" and I do try to live healthy).HelenaTo: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 4:13:20 PMSubject: Re: Re: Never Enough Oh, dear..just caught two more headlines:"Phelps, what happened?" And " Phelps confronts swimming failure"Get ready for dime store tedious explorations as to why things went so horribly wrong. I think I never realized just how bombarded we are with this stuff! I guess you just gotta laugh! To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 12:59 PM Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough Thanks, yeah it's about just allowing whatever is there. I tend to skip that step. I think when Steve said if you have a lot suffering, make sure to get acceptance and defusion full on he wasn't kidding. It's actually much more than anger I'm feeling today. Words get in the way. I've felt that sort of anger that is more like really "I don't want to" kind of anger and that's not what I'm feeling today. I don't know what to call it..but It's a positive energy force. I am ready to embrace whatever it is, listen to it. I suppose that's what Phelps did. I don't know how folks get the courage to be in the spot-light like that. I have enough trouble with imagined spot-lights, fusion with imagined/anticipated/feared judgment. He's such a hero to have come back. I was listening to him in an interview a few days ago about how he just woke up one day after a long bout with depression, partying, floundering around and made a choice to "let's do it". I thought that was fascinating and inspiring. I like the distinction made earlier between self-empowerment and self-esteem and am wondering if you or others have thoughts on this(?)I'm thinking self-empowerment is a bit like honoring where we are and choosing "just because" whereas self-esteem is more of a fused"I'm all that and more" kind of thing...or rather, focusing on having self-esteem as a goal tends to call up the I/you comparison/judging/evaluating mind.Anyway, thanks for this conversation. It's very important for me. Have a great day and enjoy the Olympics if you're tuning in!:-)terry To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 10:16 AM Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough Being able to feel the anger and own the feeling rather than suppressing it is very healthy, IMO. Being open to what the anger is saying to you is very wise. That you realize you give away your power rather than blaming others for taking it from you is also wise. Seems you are on the right track.Phelps may have suffered a "stinging loss" but he is no loser. He put himself on the line in order to follow his values. He went for it. That's all any of us can do and I find inspiration from that, no matter how the media spins it.HelenaTo: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 12:43:55 PMSubject: Re: Re: Never Enough I don't know what has led to my feeling feisty today but I like it. I am remembering the fight I had in me and it's been beaten down to a pulp in recent decade of my life. I fell way off the grid. Lost jobs and so forth. So it's a different scale than most here, who still have income, jobs.In the recovery community groups I go to, there is a lot of talk about anger being a sign of too much ego and leading up to a drink. I think it can if you fuse with it and have the anger be the end of the story. I also notice that in general the men in the program experience anger differently than women. For some women (myself included), it's very empowering to allow for anger. Unfortunately, these nuances aren't elaborated upon in meetings and so anger gets lumped into the very unbecoming, something you really want to get rid of NOW category...a sign you're not working a spiritual healthy program, praying enough, helping others enough..blah blah...part of the seven deadly sins crap. Sorry I'm so whiny about twelve steps. The larger point is I like my anger in terms of the I give a hoot about my life feeling that is coming back for me today. And I'm also fed up with giving others so much power to decide what it is safe or cool to feel or not feel. Fed up with buying into the thought not enough. I like the idea of having the anger speak to me...thanks for that.terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 9:19 AM Subject: Re: Never Enough Hi Terry, I am sorry to hear that you have been feeling so sad and angry of late and that you feel today that your life is not as full as it once was. At least today you are acknowledging you are angry and sad and hopefully you will be able to find a way to defuse from the thoughts that created it and still work toward your valued path. Interestingly I never looked at anger in differing froms, I always saw anger as just that. It was what lead to the anger that I saw as the differering variable, which was the one to watch out for and be mindful of. Maybe you will have a window of time today Terry to sit with your sadness and anger and give it time to speak to you so that you can mindfully establish what is truly leading you to feeling this way(thoughts)about your life lately and hopefully start defusing from it. With loving kindness Jo > > > > I just checked the headlines for the Olympics and read: "Phelps Suffers Stinging Loss" Is that what's meant in part by this "negativity bias"? > > Gee, whatever it is, I noticed my stomach tightened reading it...talk about "never good enough" media messaging. Pretty sad. > > > > > > terry > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 I do notice I have that voice too about oh dear, look at how healthy they are. And look at how hard they work. And I can't even imagine the days and days of practice.. And depending on time of day and many other random factors, the thoughts go on from there...the story varies tremendously. Mostly just enjoying the show of athleticism. Thinking they're SO far ahead of me it's not even an issue for me..like a different species. So I guess that's one place where I my "not good enough voice" doesn't really kick in. But sure kicks in when folks are just a lap or two (or three or four) in front of me...I can feel that gap much more and the comparison/judgment voice kicks into full gear..usually with me as big loser, not enough. As though there needs to be a winner and loser. I went for a walk today and noticed my mind beating myself up for not walking as quickly as other people who looked my age or even older. I also noticed I went back and forth between feeling both panicky and grateful seeing folks with wheel-chairs and canes...as in "that could/will be me if I'm not careful with my body"/ "I'm so grateful for the health I do have". The judgments and fears don't stop coming in! All this on a simple walk. I guess all we can do is as Steve mentioned, put 'em on a leash and keep going. I kept walking and I am glad I did..it was a lovely walk, judgments and fears in tow. It is sad that I've missed out on so much what with the time I spent battling it up there in my head. In the end, I'm really battling with myself... I'm competing not with you, but with my earlier hopes and dreams that clearly will never be materialized at this juncture. And with fears of what will/might happen if I don't make changes and stick to them! Very noisy and painful stuff. But important to just put out there as I move forward.Oh, dear, this probably isn't cheering you up Bruce. I like what you say about just being happy to have made it there. And here we are. Take it easy, and I will too, okay? Terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 1:48 PM Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough When I watch the Olympics, I see a bunch of people doing something with a purpose and pursuing excellence, something I am totally not doing. They seem happy and healthy, which makes me feel worse about myself. Of course, the media coverage plays this up relentlessly.And they're certainly in much better physical shape than me. Maybe I'll go ride my bike today...The vast majority of athletes have to be content with just being there, they're not going to win a medal. I guess that's true for me, too. Living and participating must be its own reward.Bruce Headlines schmedlines! Ha!Anything short of a medal placement is considered a failure by the press, and maybe even by Phelps (at first). They have to report the news and have to do it in a sensational way to get attention. That's the way things are, like it or not. I just let it roll off of me.Concerning your other question about the distinction between self-empowerment and self-esteem: I haven't given it much thought, to be honest. I think self-empowerment and self-esteem (as in feeling healthfully good about yourself) naturally become a part of who you are when you focus on living your life according to your values.I am enjoying the Olympics, especially the women's gymnastics (my favorite). When I was younger, I thought that if I really tried hard, I could have that kind of healthy, toned body. Not any more! But I can be the best me I can be at this age (even though I'm not - hahaha! - but I'm "good enough" and I do try to live healthy).HelenaTo: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 4:13:20 PMSubject: Re: Re: Never Enough Oh, dear..just caught two more headlines:"Phelps, what happened?" And " Phelps confronts swimming failure"Get ready for dime store tedious explorations as to why things went so horribly wrong. I think I never realized just how bombarded we are with this stuff! I guess you just gotta laugh! To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 12:59 PM Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough Thanks, yeah it's about just allowing whatever is there. I tend to skip that step. I think when Steve said if you have a lot suffering, make sure to get acceptance and defusion full on he wasn't kidding. It's actually much more than anger I'm feeling today. Words get in the way. I've felt that sort of anger that is more like really "I don't want to" kind of anger and that's not what I'm feeling today. I don't know what to call it..but It's a positive energy force. I am ready to embrace whatever it is, listen to it. I suppose that's what Phelps did. I don't know how folks get the courage to be in the spot-light like that. I have enough trouble with imagined spot-lights, fusion with imagined/anticipated/feared judgment. He's such a hero to have come back. I was listening to him in an interview a few days ago about how he just woke up one day after a long bout with depression, partying, floundering around and made a choice to "let's do it". I thought that was fascinating and inspiring. I like the distinction made earlier between self-empowerment and self-esteem and am wondering if you or others have thoughts on this(?)I'm thinking self-empowerment is a bit like honoring where we are and choosing "just because" whereas self-esteem is more of a fused"I'm all that and more" kind of thing...or rather, focusing on having self-esteem as a goal tends to call up the I/you comparison/judging/evaluating mind.Anyway, thanks for this conversation. It's very important for me. Have a great day and enjoy the Olympics if you're tuning in!:-)terry To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 10:16 AM Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough Being able to feel the anger and own the feeling rather than suppressing it is very healthy, IMO. Being open to what the anger is saying to you is very wise. That you realize you give away your power rather than blaming others for taking it from you is also wise. Seems you are on the right track.Phelps may have suffered a "stinging loss" but he is no loser. He put himself on the line in order to follow his values. He went for it. That's all any of us can do and I find inspiration from that, no matter how the media spins it.HelenaTo: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 12:43:55 PMSubject: Re: Re: Never Enough I don't know what has led to my feeling feisty today but I like it. I am remembering the fight I had in me and it's been beaten down to a pulp in recent decade of my life. I fell way off the grid. Lost jobs and so forth. So it's a different scale than most here, who still have income, jobs.In the recovery community groups I go to, there is a lot of talk about anger being a sign of too much ego and leading up to a drink. I think it can if you fuse with it and have the anger be the end of the story. I also notice that in general the men in the program experience anger differently than women. For some women (myself included), it's very empowering to allow for anger. Unfortunately, these nuances aren't elaborated upon in meetings and so anger gets lumped into the very unbecoming, something you really want to get rid of NOW category...a sign you're not working a spiritual healthy program, praying enough, helping others enough..blah blah...part of the seven deadly sins crap. Sorry I'm so whiny about twelve steps. The larger point is I like my anger in terms of the I give a hoot about my life feeling that is coming back for me today. And I'm also fed up with giving others so much power to decide what it is safe or cool to feel or not feel. Fed up with buying into the thought not enough. I like the idea of having the anger speak to me...thanks for that.terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 9:19 AM Subject: Re: Never Enough Hi Terry, I am sorry to hear that you have been feeling so sad and angry of late and that you feel today that your life is not as full as it once was. At least today you are acknowledging you are angry and sad and hopefully you will be able to find a way to defuse from the thoughts that created it and still work toward your valued path. Interestingly I never looked at anger in differing froms, I always saw anger as just that. It was what lead to the anger that I saw as the differering variable, which was the one to watch out for and be mindful of. Maybe you will have a window of time today Terry to sit with your sadness and anger and give it time to speak to you so that you can mindfully establish what is truly leading you to feeling this way(thoughts)about your life lately and hopefully start defusing from it. With loving kindness Jo > > > > I just checked the headlines for the Olympics and read: "Phelps Suffers Stinging Loss" Is that what's meant in part by this "negativity bias"? > > Gee, whatever it is, I noticed my stomach tightened reading it...talk about "never good enough" media messaging. Pretty sad. > > > > > > terry > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 Hi Terry, I agree with you about AA not quite getting female anger. In my experience, for many women one of the first things they need to do when getting sober is learn how to be productive with anger, as you say when it is about standing up for yourself and building self esteem. I think a lot of the AA approaches are based on a different time and not ideally suited to many women. I certainly chose a very different path I don't know what has led to my feeling feisty today but I like it. I am remembering the fight I had in me and it's been beaten down to a pulp in recent decade of my life. I fell way off the grid. Lost jobs and so forth. So it's a different scale than most here, who still have income, jobs. In the recovery community groups I go to, there is a lot of talk about anger being a sign of too much ego and leading up to a drink. I think it can if you fuse with it and have the anger be the end of the story. I also notice that in general the men in the program experience anger differently than women. For some women (myself included), it's very empowering to allow for anger. Unfortunately, these nuances aren't elaborated upon in meetings and so anger gets lumped into the very unbecoming, something you really want to get rid of NOW category...a sign you're not working a spiritual healthy program, praying enough, helping others enough..blah blah...part of the seven deadly sins crap. Sorry I'm so whiny about twelve steps. The larger point is I like my anger in terms of the I give a hoot about my life feeling that is coming back for me today. And I'm also fed up with giving others so much power to decide what it is safe or cool to feel or not feel. Fed up with buying into the thought not enough. I like the idea of having the anger speak to me...thanks for that. terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 9:19 AMSubject: Re: Never Enough Hi Terry,I am sorry to hear that you have been feeling so sad and angry of late and that you feel today that your life is not as full as it once was. At least today you are acknowledging you are angry and sad and hopefully you will be able to find a way to defuse from the thoughts that created it and still work toward your valued path. Interestingly I never looked at anger in differing froms, I always saw anger as just that. It was what lead to the anger that I saw as the differering variable, which was the one to watch out for and be mindful of. Maybe you will have a window of time today Terry to sit with your sadness and anger and give it time to speak to you so that you can mindfully establish what is truly leading you to feeling this way(thoughts)about your life lately and hopefully start defusing from it. With loving kindnessJo > >> > I just checked the headlines for the Olympics and read: " Phelps Suffers Stinging Loss " Is that what's meant in part by this " negativity bias " ?> > Gee, whatever it is, I noticed my stomach tightened reading it...talk about " never good enough " media messaging. Pretty sad. > > > > > > terry> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 Hey ,I am still learning how to navigate the 12-step scene. It's very tricky for me. Layered emotions like anger, fear, regret, hurt..they're so nuanced that a huge program isn't going to be able to address this stuff very effectively for every single addict. I'm just glad to notice even that. Thanks to my ability to defuse and stay with values, I keep going and find good in a few meetings here and there. But I really need to remember to hold lightly and remember why I'm going. It gets noisy very fast in those rooms. Would you mind sharing some about your different path? What works for you? thanks,terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 12:09 AM Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough Hi Terry, I agree with you about AA not quite getting female anger. In my experience, for many women one of the first things they need to do when getting sober is learn how to be productive with anger, as you say when it is about standing up for yourself and building self esteem. I think a lot of the AA approaches are based on a different time and not ideally suited to many women. I certainly chose a very different path I don't know what has led to my feeling feisty today but I like it. I am remembering the fight I had in me and it's been beaten down to a pulp in recent decade of my life. I fell way off the grid. Lost jobs and so forth. So it's a different scale than most here, who still have income, jobs. In the recovery community groups I go to, there is a lot of talk about anger being a sign of too much ego and leading up to a drink. I think it can if you fuse with it and have the anger be the end of the story. I also notice that in general the men in the program experience anger differently than women. For some women (myself included), it's very empowering to allow for anger. Unfortunately, these nuances aren't elaborated upon in meetings and so anger gets lumped into the very unbecoming, something you really want to get rid of NOW category...a sign you're not working a spiritual healthy program, praying enough, helping others enough..blah blah...part of the seven deadly sins crap. Sorry I'm so whiny about twelve steps. The larger point is I like my anger in terms of the I give a hoot about my life feeling that is coming back for me today. And I'm also fed up with giving others so much power to decide what it is safe or cool to feel or not feel. Fed up with buying into the thought not enough. I like the idea of having the anger speak to me...thanks for that. terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 9:19 AMSubject: Re: Never Enough Hi Terry,I am sorry to hear that you have been feeling so sad and angry of late and that you feel today that your life is not as full as it once was. At least today you are acknowledging you are angry and sad and hopefully you will be able to find a way to defuse from the thoughts that created it and still work toward your valued path. Interestingly I never looked at anger in differing froms, I always saw anger as just that. It was what lead to the anger that I saw as the differering variable, which was the one to watch out for and be mindful of. Maybe you will have a window of time today Terry to sit with your sadness and anger and give it time to speak to you so that you can mindfully establish what is truly leading you to feeling this way(thoughts)about your life lately and hopefully start defusing from it. With loving kindnessJo > >> > I just checked the headlines for the Olympics and read: "Phelps Suffers Stinging Loss" Is that what's meant in part by this "negativity bias"?> > Gee, whatever it is, I noticed my stomach tightened reading it...talk about "never good enough" media messaging. Pretty sad. > > > > > > terry> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 Just chipping in, from my maybe "male" point of view. I think it's great that you just start getting angry, if you've repressed that and gone the opposite way for very long. If you're too intent on exactly how you're going to express it in the beginning it might perhaps stop this important process. Once you have the anger : I really mean setting reasonable limits - then the next step could perhaps be moderating your expression to fit the person in front of you. I think as I've grown, I've not been very balanced at times, but I couldn't do it any better. I have reasoned with myself and friends: better to express yourself in an unbalanced way in the beginning than to keep quiet and not being able to really slip out of the ancient pattern of submissiveness. My two cents, Warmly, Henrik Hey ,I am still learning how to navigate the 12-step scene. It's very trickyfor me. Layered emotions like anger, fear, regret, hurt..they're sonuanced that a huge program isn't going to be able to address this stuffvery effectively for every single addict. I'm just glad to notice eventhat. Thanks to my ability to defuse and stay with values, I keep goingand find good in a few meetings here and there. But I really need toremember to hold lightly and remember why I'm going. It gets noisy veryfast in those rooms.Would you mind sharing some about your different path? What works foryou?thanks,terryTo: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 12:09 AMSubject: Re: Re: Never EnoughHi Terry,I agree with you about AA not quite getting female anger. In myexperience, for many women one of the first things they need to do whengetting sober is learn how to be productive with anger, as you say whenit is about standing up for yourself and building self esteem. I think alot of the AA approaches are based on a different time and not ideallysuited to many women. I certainly chose a very different pathOn 30 July 2012 00:43, Theresa Linder >wrote:> > > > > I don't know what has led to my feeling feisty today but I like it. I> am remembering the fight I had in me and it's been beaten down to a> pulp in recent decade of my life. I fell way off the grid. Lost jobs> and so forth. So it's a different scale than most here, who still have> income, jobs.> > > > In the recovery community groups I go to, there is a lot of talk about> anger being a sign of too much ego and leading up to a drink. I think> it can if you fuse with it and have the anger be the end of the story.> I also notice that in general the men in the program experience anger> differently than women. For some women (myself included), it's very> empowering to allow for anger. Unfortunately, these nuances aren't> elaborated upon in meetings and so anger gets lumped into the very> unbecoming, something you really want to get rid of NOW category...a> sign you're not working a spiritual healthy program, praying enough,> helping others enough..blah blah...part of the seven deadly sins> crap.Sorry I'm so whiny about twelve steps. The larger point is I like> my anger in terms of the I give a hoot about my life feeling that is> coming back for me today. And I'm also fed up with giving others so> much power to decide what it is safe or cool to feel or not feel. Fed> up with buying into the thought not enough.> > > > > I like the idea of having the anger speak to me...thanks for that.> > > > terry> > > > > >> To: <ACT_for_the_Public >> Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 9:19 AM> Subject: Re: Never Enough> > > > Hi Terry,> > I am sorry to hear that you have been feeling so sad and angry of late> and that you feel today that your life is not as full as it once was.> > At least today you are acknowledging you are angry and sad and> hopefully you will be able to find a way to defuse from the thoughts> that created it and still work toward your valued path.> > Interestingly I never looked at anger in differing froms, I always saw> anger as just that. It was what lead to the anger that I saw as the> differering variable, which was the one to watch out for and be> mindful of.> > Maybe you will have a window of time today Terry to sit with your> sadness and anger and give it time to speak to you so that you can> mindfully establish what is truly leading you to feeling this> way(thoughts)about your life lately and hopefully start defusing from> it.> > With loving kindness> Jo> > > > >> > > I just checked the headlines for the Olympics and read: "Phelps> > > Suffers Stinging Loss" Is that what's meant in part by this> > > "negativity bias"?> > > Gee, whatever it is, I noticed my stomach tightened reading> > > it...talk about "never good enough" media messaging. Pretty sad.> > >> > >> > > terry> > >> >> > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 Hi Henrik,Your chipping is always welcome! You are a warm voice here, popping in now and again. Yes, I try too hard to keep everything balanced and perfect! I think that's why I smile when Steve says things like: "Oh, excuse me for being human". And I like when he speaks of self-empowerment vs.self esteem. That feels valuable. Let's see...You know, I don't really know if I've repressed anger, and I'm not really sure it's even "anger" per se I'm even speaking to in this thread. This may sound splitting hairs, but I'm finding it important to be more accurate in how I'm describing my process because I am humbled by what happens when I'm not. But I guess that's a good enough word to use for now.. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying in the second half of your post about having the expression fit the person in front of me. It sounds important. Are you talking about adjusting to the context? Can you maybe give an example?thanks so much,terry To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public >; ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 1:54 PM Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough Just chipping in, from my maybe "male" point of view. I think it's great that you just start getting angry, if you've repressed that and gone the opposite way for very long. If you're too intent on exactly how you're going to express it in the beginning it might perhaps stop this important process. Once you have the anger : I really mean setting reasonable limits - then the next step could perhaps be moderating your expression to fit the person in front of you. I think as I've grown, I've not been very balanced at times, but I couldn't do it any better. I have reasoned with myself and friends: better to express yourself in an unbalanced way in the beginning than to keep quiet and not being able to really slip out of the ancient pattern of submissiveness. My two cents, Warmly, Henrik Hey ,I am still learning how to navigate the 12-step scene. It's very trickyfor me. Layered emotions like anger, fear, regret, hurt..they're sonuanced that a huge program isn't going to be able to address this stuffvery effectively for every single addict. I'm just glad to notice eventhat. Thanks to my ability to defuse and stay with values, I keep goingand find good in a few meetings here and there. But I really need toremember to hold lightly and remember why I'm going. It gets noisy veryfast in those rooms.Would you mind sharing some about your different path? What works foryou?thanks,terryTo: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 12:09 AMSubject: Re: Re: Never EnoughHi Terry,I agree with you about AA not quite getting female anger. In myexperience, for many women one of the first things they need to do whengetting sober is learn how to be productive with anger, as you say whenit is about standing up for yourself and building self esteem. I think alot of the AA approaches are based on a different time and not ideallysuited to many women. I certainly chose a very different pathOn 30 July 2012 00:43, Theresa Linder >wrote:> > > > > I don't know what has led to my feeling feisty today but I like it. I> am remembering the fight I had in me and it's been beaten down to a> pulp in recent decade of my life. I fell way off the grid. Lost jobs> and so forth. So it's a different scale than most here, who still have> income, jobs.> > > > In the recovery community groups I go to, there is a lot of talk about> anger being a sign of too much ego and leading up to a drink. I think> it can if you fuse with it and have the anger be the end of the story.> I also notice that in general the men in the program experience anger> differently than women. For some women (myself included), it's very> empowering to allow for anger. Unfortunately, these nuances aren't> elaborated upon in meetings and so anger gets lumped into the very> unbecoming, something you really want to get rid of NOW category...a> sign you're not working a spiritual healthy program, praying enough,> helping others enough..blah blah...part of the seven deadly sins> crap.Sorry I'm so whiny about twelve steps. The larger point is I like> my anger in terms of the I give a hoot about my life feeling that is> coming back for me today. And I'm also fed up with giving others so> much power to decide what it is safe or cool to feel or not feel. Fed> up with buying into the thought not enough.> > > > > I like the idea of having the anger speak to me...thanks for that.> > > > terry> > > > > >> To: <ACT_for_the_Public >> Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 9:19 AM> Subject: Re: Never Enough> > > > Hi Terry,> > I am sorry to hear that you have been feeling so sad and angry of late> and that you feel today that your life is not as full as it once was.> > At least today you are acknowledging you are angry and sad and> hopefully you will be able to find a way to defuse from the thoughts> that created it and still work toward your valued path.> > Interestingly I never looked at anger in differing froms, I always saw> anger as just that. It was what lead to the anger that I saw as the> differering variable, which was the one to watch out for and be> mindful of.> > Maybe you will have a window of time today Terry to sit with your> sadness and anger and give it time to speak to you so that you can> mindfully establish what is truly leading you to feeling this> way(thoughts)about your life lately and hopefully start defusing from> it.> > With loving kindness> Jo> > > > >> > > I just checked the headlines for the Olympics and read: "Phelps> > > Suffers Stinging Loss" Is that what's meant in part by this> > > "negativity bias"?> > > Gee, whatever it is, I noticed my stomach tightened reading> > > it...talk about "never good enough" media messaging. Pretty sad.> > >> > >> > > terry> > >> >> > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 Hi Terry, I can try: adjusting to the context: 1. If I'm upset about X (like people not being respected or something else), and I talk in a confrontational way about it to people who may be partly responsible for that - I don't "take in" or "see" what they're coming from. I want the talk to be in the service of setting limits and expressing my view and at the same time not making enemies or losing friends. If I try and change perspective before I talk though: how must it be for them - I where them - if I had their responsibilities and their limitations (everybody has limitations) - how would I view the situation?Then I would possibly soften my voice, express my concern to them and listen for solutions. Maybe chip in positive reinforcement if some of the solutions seemed good, and maybe suggesting some solutions myself after a while... I find this very difficult - I must tell you! 2. Like if I where at an AA meeting (I've never been to one, but I'll pretend) - Maybe these women and men have never had the practice or opportunity to express anger - ever... Maybe they where physically or verbally abused when they got mad? With that in mind - I then could perhaps frame my anger very carefully during an AA meeting: Like: "You know, I'm not angry at any of you - I don't want you to rescue me or hold my hand - I just need to say theses things. I may sound angry when I say them - but that's just old stuff. I'm not angry at any of you - it's just my stuff, but I feel safe here and I would love to be able to be genuine with you. Would that be OK for you? Please let me know if I should stop - I'd be grateful if you tell me to stop - if you think I should, but it would be so helpful for me if I could speak freely for a few minutes without having to watch my tone of voice just this time."You know... making them safe assuming that anger in other people scare the c-ap out of them. Asking for permission first is usually the magic trick. This will also connect with them. If they allow you to speak freely while having the possibility to say no, they will themselves get that they can do the same. It will create a good support group climate in the long run. I think you should be so happy that you can finally express your anger. Even in baby steps. Thanks, Henrik Hi Henrik,Your chipping is always welcome! You are a warm voice here, popping innow and again. Yes, I try too hard to keep everything balanced andperfect! I think that's why I smile when Steve says things like: "Oh,excuse me for being human". And I like when he speaks ofself-empowerment vs.self esteem. That feels valuable.Let's see...You know, I don't really know if I've repressed anger, andI'm not really sure it's even "anger" per se I'm even speaking to inthis thread. This may sound splitting hairs, but I'm finding itimportant to be more accurate in how I'm describing my process because Iam humbled by what happens when I'm not.But I guess that's a good enough word to use for now..I'm not sure I understand what you're saying in the second half of yourpost about having the expression fit the person in front of me. Itsounds important. Are you talking about adjusting to the context? Canyou maybe give an example?thanks so much,terryTo: "ACT_for_the_Public "<ACT_for_the_Public >; ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 1:54 PMSubject: Re: Re: Never EnoughJust chipping in, from my maybe "male" point of view. I think it's greatthat you just start getting angry, if you've repressed that and gone theopposite way for very long. If you're too intent on exactly how you'regoing to express it in the beginning it might perhaps stop thisimportant process. Once you have the anger : I really mean settingreasonable limits - then the next step could perhaps be moderating yourexpression to fit the person in front of you. I think as I've grown,I've not been very balanced at times, but I couldn't do it any better. Ihave reasoned with myself and friends: better to express yourself in anunbalanced way in the beginning than to keep quiet and not being able toreally slip out of the ancient pattern of submissiveness.My two cents,Warmly,Henrik> > > > > Hey ,> > > > > > I am still learning how to navigate the 12-step scene. It's very> tricky> for me. Layered emotions like anger, fear, regret, hurt..they're so> nuanced that a huge program isn't going to be able to address this> stuff> very effectively for every single addict. I'm just glad to notice even> that. Thanks to my ability to defuse and stay with values, I keep> going> and find good in a few meetings here and there. But I really need to> remember to hold lightly and remember why I'm going. It gets noisy> very> fast in those rooms.> > > > > > Would you mind sharing some about your different path? What works for> you?> > > > > > thanks,> > > terry> > > > > > > To: <ACT_for_the_Public >> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 12:09 AM> Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough> > > > Hi Terry,> > > > I agree with you about AA not quite getting female anger. In my> experience, for many women one of the first things they need to do> when> getting sober is learn how to be productive with anger, as you say> when> it is about standing up for yourself and building self esteem. I think> a> lot of the AA approaches are based on a different time and not ideally> suited to many women. I certainly chose a very different path> > > > > > > > > > > > On 30 July 2012 00:43, Theresa Linder >> wrote:> > > >> >> >> >> > I don't know what has led to my feeling feisty today but I like it.> > I> > am remembering the fight I had in me and it's been beaten down to a> > pulp in recent decade of my life. I fell way off the grid. Lost jobs> > and so forth. So it's a different scale than most here, who still> > have> > income, jobs.> >> >> >> > In the recovery community groups I go to, there is a lot of talk> > about> > anger being a sign of too much ego and leading up to a drink. I> > think> > it can if you fuse with it and have the anger be the end of the> > story.> > I also notice that in general the men in the program experience> > anger> > differently than women. For some women (myself included), it's very> > empowering to allow for anger. Unfortunately, these nuances aren't> > elaborated upon in meetings and so anger gets lumped into the very> > unbecoming, something you really want to get rid of NOW category...a> > sign you're not working a spiritual healthy program, praying enough,> > helping others enough..blah blah...part of the seven deadly sins> > crap.Sorry I'm so whiny about twelve steps. The larger point is I> > like> > my anger in terms of the I give a hoot about my life feeling that is> > coming back for me today. And I'm also fed up with giving others so> > much power to decide what it is safe or cool to feel or not feel.> > Fed> > up with buying into the thought not enough.> >> >> >> >> > I like the idea of having the anger speak to me...thanks for that.> >> >> >> > terry> >> >> >> >> > >> > To: <ACT_for_the_Public >> > Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 9:19 AM> > Subject: Re: Never Enough> >> >> >> > Hi Terry,> >> > I am sorry to hear that you have been feeling so sad and angry of> > late> > and that you feel today that your life is not as full as it once> > was.> >> > At least today you are acknowledging you are angry and sad and> > hopefully you will be able to find a way to defuse from the thoughts> > that created it and still work toward your valued path.> >> > Interestingly I never looked at anger in differing froms, I always> > saw> > anger as just that. It was what lead to the anger that I saw as the> > differering variable, which was the one to watch out for and be> > mindful of.> >> > Maybe you will have a window of time today Terry to sit with your> > sadness and anger and give it time to speak to you so that you can> > mindfully establish what is truly leading you to feeling this> > way(thoughts)about your life lately and hopefully start defusing> > from> > it.> >> > With loving kindness> > Jo> >> > > > > >> > > > I just checked the headlines for the Olympics and read: "Phelps> > > > Suffers Stinging Loss" Is that what's meant in part by this> > > > "negativity bias"?> > > > Gee, whatever it is, I noticed my stomach tightened reading> > > > it...talk about "never good enough" media messaging. Pretty sad.> > > >> > > >> > > > terry> > > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 Henrik, this is more than I hoped for. Thank you for such a generous response. I will sit with it and reply tomorrow. warm regards,terryP.S. Isn't it like 2:00 am or something where you are? To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 5:05 PM Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough Hi Terry, I can try: adjusting to the context: 1. If I'm upset about X (like people not being respected or something else), and I talk in a confrontational way about it to people who may be partly responsible for that - I don't "take in" or "see" what they're coming from. I want the talk to be in the service of setting limits and expressing my view and at the same time not making enemies or losing friends. If I try and change perspective before I talk though: how must it be for them - I where them - if I had their responsibilities and their limitations (everybody has limitations) - how would I view the situation?Then I would possibly soften my voice, express my concern to them and listen for solutions. Maybe chip in positive reinforcement if some of the solutions seemed good, and maybe suggesting some solutions myself after a while... I find this very difficult - I must tell you! 2. Like if I where at an AA meeting (I've never been to one, but I'll pretend) - Maybe these women and men have never had the practice or opportunity to express anger - ever... Maybe they where physically or verbally abused when they got mad? With that in mind - I then could perhaps frame my anger very carefully during an AA meeting: Like: "You know, I'm not angry at any of you - I don't want you to rescue me or hold my hand - I just need to say theses things. I may sound angry when I say them - but that's just old stuff. I'm not angry at any of you - it's just my stuff, but I feel safe here and I would love to be able to be genuine with you. Would that be OK for you? Please let me know if I should stop - I'd be grateful if you tell me to stop - if you think I should, but it would be so helpful for me if I could speak freely for a few minutes without having to watch my tone of voice just this time."You know... making them safe assuming that anger in other people scare the c-ap out of them. Asking for permission first is usually the magic trick. This will also connect with them. If they allow you to speak freely while having the possibility to say no, they will themselves get that they can do the same. It will create a good support group climate in the long run. I think you should be so happy that you can finally express your anger. Even in baby steps. Thanks, Henrik Hi Henrik,Your chipping is always welcome! You are a warm voice here, popping innow and again. Yes, I try too hard to keep everything balanced andperfect! I think that's why I smile when Steve says things like: "Oh,excuse me for being human". And I like when he speaks ofself-empowerment vs.self esteem. That feels valuable.Let's see...You know, I don't really know if I've repressed anger, andI'm not really sure it's even "anger" per se I'm even speaking to inthis thread. This may sound splitting hairs, but I'm finding itimportant to be more accurate in how I'm describing my process because Iam humbled by what happens when I'm not.But I guess that's a good enough word to use for now..I'm not sure I understand what you're saying in the second half of yourpost about having the expression fit the person in front of me. Itsounds important. Are you talking about adjusting to the context? Canyou maybe give an example?thanks so much,terryTo: "ACT_for_the_Public "<ACT_for_the_Public >; ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 1:54 PMSubject: Re: Re: Never EnoughJust chipping in, from my maybe "male" point of view. I think it's greatthat you just start getting angry, if you've repressed that and gone theopposite way for very long. If you're too intent on exactly how you'regoing to express it in the beginning it might perhaps stop thisimportant process. Once you have the anger : I really mean settingreasonable limits - then the next step could perhaps be moderating yourexpression to fit the person in front of you. I think as I've grown,I've not been very balanced at times, but I couldn't do it any better. Ihave reasoned with myself and friends: better to express yourself in anunbalanced way in the beginning than to keep quiet and not being able toreally slip out of the ancient pattern of submissiveness.My two cents,Warmly,Henrik> > > > > Hey ,> > > > > > I am still learning how to navigate the 12-step scene. It's very> tricky> for me. Layered emotions like anger, fear, regret, hurt..they're so> nuanced that a huge program isn't going to be able to address this> stuff> very effectively for every single addict. I'm just glad to notice even> that. Thanks to my ability to defuse and stay with values, I keep> going> and find good in a few meetings here and there. But I really need to> remember to hold lightly and remember why I'm going. It gets noisy> very> fast in those rooms.> > > > > > Would you mind sharing some about your different path? What works for> you?> > > > > > thanks,> > > terry> > > > > > > To: <ACT_for_the_Public >> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 12:09 AM> Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough> > > > Hi Terry,> > > > I agree with you about AA not quite getting female anger. In my> experience, for many women one of the first things they need to do> when> getting sober is learn how to be productive with anger, as you say> when> it is about standing up for yourself and building self esteem. I think> a> lot of the AA approaches are based on a different time and not ideally> suited to many women. I certainly chose a very different path> > > > > > > > > > > > On 30 July 2012 00:43, Theresa Linder >> wrote:> > > >> >> >> >> > I don't know what has led to my feeling feisty today but I like it.> > I> > am remembering the fight I had in me and it's been beaten down to a> > pulp in recent decade of my life. I fell way off the grid. Lost jobs> > and so forth. So it's a different scale than most here, who still> > have> > income, jobs.> >> >> >> > In the recovery community groups I go to, there is a lot of talk> > about> > anger being a sign of too much ego and leading up to a drink. I> > think> > it can if you fuse with it and have the anger be the end of the> > story.> > I also notice that in general the men in the program experience> > anger> > differently than women. For some women (myself included), it's very> > empowering to allow for anger. Unfortunately, these nuances aren't> > elaborated upon in meetings and so anger gets lumped into the very> > unbecoming, something you really want to get rid of NOW category...a> > sign you're not working a spiritual healthy program, praying enough,> > helping others enough..blah blah...part of the seven deadly sins> > crap.Sorry I'm so whiny about twelve steps. The larger point is I> > like> > my anger in terms of the I give a hoot about my life feeling that is> > coming back for me today. And I'm also fed up with giving others so> > much power to decide what it is safe or cool to feel or not feel.> > Fed> > up with buying into the thought not enough.> >> >> >> >> > I like the idea of having the anger speak to me...thanks for that.> >> >> >> > terry> >> >> >> >> > >> > To: <ACT_for_the_Public >> > Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 9:19 AM> > Subject: Re: Never Enough> >> >> >> > Hi Terry,> >> > I am sorry to hear that you have been feeling so sad and angry of> > late> > and that you feel today that your life is not as full as it once> > was.> >> > At least today you are acknowledging you are angry and sad and> > hopefully you will be able to find a way to defuse from the thoughts> > that created it and still work toward your valued path.> >> > Interestingly I never looked at anger in differing froms, I always> > saw> > anger as just that. It was what lead to the anger that I saw as the> > differering variable, which was the one to watch out for and be> > mindful of.> >> > Maybe you will have a window of time today Terry to sit with your> > sadness and anger and give it time to speak to you so that you can> > mindfully establish what is truly leading you to feeling this> > way(thoughts)about your life lately and hopefully start defusing> > from> > it.> >> > With loving kindness> > Jo> >> > > > > >> > > > I just checked the headlines for the Olympics and read: "Phelps> > > > Suffers Stinging Loss" Is that what's meant in part by this> > > > "negativity bias"?> > > > Gee, whatever it is, I noticed my stomach tightened reading> > > > it...talk about "never good enough" media messaging. Pretty sad.> > > >> > > >> > > > terry> > > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 I'm in the US right now, so its barely 9 pm here. thanks for you concern. Henrik, this is more than I hoped for. Thank you for such a generousresponse. I will sit with it and reply tomorrow.warm regards,terryP.S. Isn't it like 2:00 am or something where you are?To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 5:05 PMSubject: Re: Re: Never EnoughHi Terry,I can try:adjusting to the context:1. If I'm upset about X (like people not being respected or somethingelse), and I talk in a confrontational way about it to people who may bepartly responsible for that - I don't "take in" or "see" what they'recoming from. I want the talk to be in the service of setting limits andexpressing my view and at the same time not making enemies or losingfriends. If I try and change perspective before I talk though: how mustit be for them - I where them - if I had their responsibilities andtheir limitations (everybody has limitations) - how would I view thesituation?Then I would possibly soften my voice, express my concern to them andlisten for solutions. Maybe chip in positive reinforcement if some ofthe solutions seemed good, and maybe suggesting some solutions myselfafter a while... I find this very difficult - I must tell you!2. Like if I where at an AA meeting (I've never been to one, but I'llpretend) - Maybe these women and men have never had the practice oropportunity to express anger - ever... Maybe they where physically orverbally abused when they got mad? With that in mind - I then couldperhaps frame my anger very carefully during an AA meeting: Like: "Youknow, I'm not angry at any of you - I don't want you to rescue me orhold my hand - I just need to say theses things. I may sound angry whenI say them - but that's just old stuff. I'm not angry at any of you -it's just my stuff, but I feel safe here and I would love to be able tobe genuine with you. Would that be OK for you? Please let me know if Ishould stop - I'd be grateful if you tell me to stop - if you think Ishould, but it would be so helpful for me if I could speak freely for afew minutes without having to watch my tone of voice just this time."You know... making them safe assuming that anger in other people scarethe c-ap out of them. Asking for permission first is usually the magictrick. This will also connect with them. If they allow you to speakfreely while having the possibility to say no, they will themselves getthat they can do the same. It will create a good support group climatein the long run.I think you should be so happy that you can finally express your anger.Even in baby steps.Thanks,Henrik> > > > > Hi Henrik,> > > > > Your chipping is always welcome! You are a warm voice here, popping in> now and again. Yes, I try too hard to keep everything balanced and> perfect! I think that's why I smile when Steve says things like: "Oh,> excuse me for being human". And I like when he speaks of> self-empowerment vs.self esteem. That feels valuable.> > > > > > Let's see...You know, I don't really know if I've repressed anger, and> I'm not really sure it's even "anger" per se I'm even speaking to in> this thread. This may sound splitting hairs, but I'm finding it> important to be more accurate in how I'm describing my process because> I> am humbled by what happens when I'm not.> > > > > > But I guess that's a good enough word to use for now..> > > > > I'm not sure I understand what you're saying in the second half of> your> post about having the expression fit the person in front of me. It> sounds important. Are you talking about adjusting to the context? Can> you maybe give an example?> > > > > thanks so much,> > terry> > > > To: "ACT_for_the_Public "> <ACT_for_the_Public >;> <ACT_for_the_Public >> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 1:54 PM> Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough> > > > Just chipping in, from my maybe "male" point of view. I think it's> great> that you just start getting angry, if you've repressed that and gone> the> opposite way for very long. If you're too intent on exactly how you're> going to express it in the beginning it might perhaps stop this> important process. Once you have the anger : I really mean setting> reasonable limits - then the next step could perhaps be moderating> your> expression to fit the person in front of you. I think as I've grown,> I've not been very balanced at times, but I couldn't do it any better.> I> have reasoned with myself and friends: better to express yourself in> an> unbalanced way in the beginning than to keep quiet and not being able> to> really slip out of the ancient pattern of submissiveness.> > > > > My two cents,> > > > > Warmly,> > Henrik> > > On 30 jul 2012 20:22 "Theresa Linder" > wrote:> > >> >> >> >> > Hey ,> >> >> >> >> >> > I am still learning how to navigate the 12-step scene. It's very> > tricky> > for me. Layered emotions like anger, fear, regret, hurt..they're so> > nuanced that a huge program isn't going to be able to address this> > stuff> > very effectively for every single addict. I'm just glad to notice> > even> > that. Thanks to my ability to defuse and stay with values, I keep> > going> > and find good in a few meetings here and there. But I really need to> > remember to hold lightly and remember why I'm going. It gets noisy> > very> > fast in those rooms.> >> >> >> >> >> > Would you mind sharing some about your different path? What works> > for> > you?> >> >> >> >> >> > thanks,> >> >> > terry> >> >> >> >> >> > > > To: <ACT_for_the_Public >> > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 12:09 AM> > Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough> >> >> >> > Hi Terry,> >> >> >> > I agree with you about AA not quite getting female anger. In my> > experience, for many women one of the first things they need to do> > when> > getting sober is learn how to be productive with anger, as you say> > when> > it is about standing up for yourself and building self esteem. I> > think> > a> > lot of the AA approaches are based on a different time and not> > ideally> > suited to many women. I certainly chose a very different path> >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > On 30 July 2012 00:43, Theresa Linder >> > wrote:> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > I don't know what has led to my feeling feisty today but I like> > > it.> > > I> > > am remembering the fight I had in me and it's been beaten down to> > > a> > > pulp in recent decade of my life. I fell way off the grid. Lost> > > jobs> > > and so forth. So it's a different scale than most here, who still> > > have> > > income, jobs.> > >> > >> > >> > > In the recovery community groups I go to, there is a lot of talk> > > about> > > anger being a sign of too much ego and leading up to a drink. I> > > think> > > it can if you fuse with it and have the anger be the end of the> > > story.> > > I also notice that in general the men in the program experience> > > anger> > > differently than women. For some women (myself included), it's> > > very> > > empowering to allow for anger. Unfortunately, these nuances aren't> > > elaborated upon in meetings and so anger gets lumped into the very> > > unbecoming, something you really want to get rid of NOW> > > category...a> > > sign you're not working a spiritual healthy program, praying> > > enough,> > > helping others enough..blah blah...part of the seven deadly sins> > > crap.Sorry I'm so whiny about twelve steps. The larger point is I> > > like> > > my anger in terms of the I give a hoot about my life feeling that> > > is> > > coming back for me today. And I'm also fed up with giving others> > > so> > > much power to decide what it is safe or cool to feel or not feel.> > > Fed> > > up with buying into the thought not enough.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > I like the idea of having the anger speak to me...thanks for that.> > >> > >> > >> > > terry> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > >> > > To: <ACT_for_the_Public >> > > Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 9:19 AM> > > Subject: Re: Never Enough> > >> > >> > >> > > Hi Terry,> > >> > > I am sorry to hear that you have been feeling so sad and angry of> > > late> > > and that you feel today that your life is not as full as it once> > > was.> > >> > > At least today you are acknowledging you are angry and sad and> > > hopefully you will be able to find a way to defuse from the> > > thoughts> > > that created it and still work toward your valued path.> > >> > > Interestingly I never looked at anger in differing froms, I always> > > saw> > > anger as just that. It was what lead to the anger that I saw as> > > the> > > differering variable, which was the one to watch out for and be> > > mindful of.> > >> > > Maybe you will have a window of time today Terry to sit with your> > > sadness and anger and give it time to speak to you so that you can> > > mindfully establish what is truly leading you to feeling this> > > way(thoughts)about your life lately and hopefully start defusing> > > from> > > it.> > >> > > With loving kindness> > > Jo> > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > I just checked the headlines for the Olympics and read:> > > > > "Phelps> > > > > Suffers Stinging Loss" Is that what's meant in part by this> > > > > "negativity bias"?> > > > > Gee, whatever it is, I noticed my stomach tightened reading> > > > > it...talk about "never good enough" media messaging. Pretty> > > > > sad.> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > terry> > > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 Oh, I hope you enjoy your stay in the U.S. It's a huge country!I grew up in the area where World Con was..and so if you're staying longer right there in the D/C area, let me know..I will be able to tell you the best restaurants and sights depending on what you like! That Rockville Pike is deceiving ..there are so many great dives a street or two away..And if you've moved on, also let me know..maybe back channel.. From: "Henrik Nordin," To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 5:45 PM Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough I'm in the US right now, so its barely 9 pm here. thanks for you concern. Henrik, this is more than I hoped for. Thank you for such a generousresponse. I will sit with it and reply tomorrow.warm regards,terryP.S. Isn't it like 2:00 am or something where you are?To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 5:05 PMSubject: Re: Re: Never EnoughHi Terry,I can try:adjusting to the context:1. If I'm upset about X (like people not being respected or somethingelse), and I talk in a confrontational way about it to people who may bepartly responsible for that - I don't "take in" or "see" what they'recoming from. I want the talk to be in the service of setting limits andexpressing my view and at the same time not making enemies or losingfriends. If I try and change perspective before I talk though: how mustit be for them - I where them - if I had their responsibilities andtheir limitations (everybody has limitations) - how would I view thesituation?Then I would possibly soften my voice, express my concern to them andlisten for solutions. Maybe chip in positive reinforcement if some ofthe solutions seemed good, and maybe suggesting some solutions myselfafter a while... I find this very difficult - I must tell you!2. Like if I where at an AA meeting (I've never been to one, but I'llpretend) - Maybe these women and men have never had the practice oropportunity to express anger - ever... Maybe they where physically orverbally abused when they got mad? With that in mind - I then couldperhaps frame my anger very carefully during an AA meeting: Like: "Youknow, I'm not angry at any of you - I don't want you to rescue me orhold my hand - I just need to say theses things. I may sound angry whenI say them - but that's just old stuff. I'm not angry at any of you -it's just my stuff, but I feel safe here and I would love to be able tobe genuine with you. Would that be OK for you? Please let me know if Ishould stop - I'd be grateful if you tell me to stop - if you think Ishould, but it would be so helpful for me if I could speak freely for afew minutes without having to watch my tone of voice just this time."You know... making them safe assuming that anger in other people scarethe c-ap out of them. Asking for permission first is usually the magictrick. This will also connect with them. If they allow you to speakfreely while having the possibility to say no, they will themselves getthat they can do the same. It will create a good support group climatein the long run.I think you should be so happy that you can finally express your anger.Even in baby steps.Thanks,Henrik> > > > > Hi Henrik,> > > > > Your chipping is always welcome! You are a warm voice here, popping in> now and again. Yes, I try too hard to keep everything balanced and> perfect! I think that's why I smile when Steve says things like: "Oh,> excuse me for being human". And I like when he speaks of> self-empowerment vs.self esteem. That feels valuable.> > > > > > Let's see...You know, I don't really know if I've repressed anger, and> I'm not really sure it's even "anger" per se I'm even speaking to in> this thread. This may sound splitting hairs, but I'm finding it> important to be more accurate in how I'm describing my process because> I> am humbled by what happens when I'm not.> > > > > > But I guess that's a good enough word to use for now..> > > > > I'm not sure I understand what you're saying in the second half of> your> post about having the expression fit the person in front of me. It> sounds important. Are you talking about adjusting to the context? Can> you maybe give an example?> > > > > thanks so much,> > terry> > > > To: "ACT_for_the_Public "> <ACT_for_the_Public >;> <ACT_for_the_Public >> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 1:54 PM> Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough> > > > Just chipping in, from my maybe "male" point of view. I think it's> great> that you just start getting angry, if you've repressed that and gone> the> opposite way for very long. If you're too intent on exactly how you're> going to express it in the beginning it might perhaps stop this> important process. Once you have the anger : I really mean setting> reasonable limits - then the next step could perhaps be moderating> your> expression to fit the person in front of you. I think as I've grown,> I've not been very balanced at times, but I couldn't do it any better.> I> have reasoned with myself and friends: better to express yourself in> an> unbalanced way in the beginning than to keep quiet and not being able> to> really slip out of the ancient pattern of submissiveness.> > > > > My two cents,> > > > > Warmly,> > Henrik> > > On 30 jul 2012 20:22 "Theresa Linder" > wrote:> > >> >> >> >> > Hey ,> >> >> >> >> >> > I am still learning how to navigate the 12-step scene. It's very> > tricky> > for me. Layered emotions like anger, fear, regret, hurt..they're so> > nuanced that a huge program isn't going to be able to address this> > stuff> > very effectively for every single addict. I'm just glad to notice> > even> > that. Thanks to my ability to defuse and stay with values, I keep> > going> > and find good in a few meetings here and there. But I really need to> > remember to hold lightly and remember why I'm going. It gets noisy> > very> > fast in those rooms.> >> >> >> >> >> > Would you mind sharing some about your different path? What works> > for> > you?> >> >> >> >> >> > thanks,> >> >> > terry> >> >> >> >> >> > > > To: <ACT_for_the_Public >> > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 12:09 AM> > Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough> >> >> >> > Hi Terry,> >> >> >> > I agree with you about AA not quite getting female anger. In my> > experience, for many women one of the first things they need to do> > when> > getting sober is learn how to be productive with anger, as you say> > when> > it is about standing up for yourself and building self esteem. I> > think> > a> > lot of the AA approaches are based on a different time and not> > ideally> > suited to many women. I certainly chose a very different path> >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > On 30 July 2012 00:43, Theresa Linder >> > wrote:> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > I don't know what has led to my feeling feisty today but I like> > > it.> > > I> > > am remembering the fight I had in me and it's been beaten down to> > > a> > > pulp in recent decade of my life. I fell way off the grid. Lost> > > jobs> > > and so forth. So it's a different scale than most here, who still> > > have> > > income, jobs.> > >> > >> > >> > > In the recovery community groups I go to, there is a lot of talk> > > about> > > anger being a sign of too much ego and leading up to a drink. I> > > think> > > it can if you fuse with it and have the anger be the end of the> > > story.> > > I also notice that in general the men in the program experience> > > anger> > > differently than women. For some women (myself included), it's> > > very> > > empowering to allow for anger. Unfortunately, these nuances aren't> > > elaborated upon in meetings and so anger gets lumped into the very> > > unbecoming, something you really want to get rid of NOW> > > category...a> > > sign you're not working a spiritual healthy program, praying> > > enough,> > > helping others enough..blah blah...part of the seven deadly sins> > > crap.Sorry I'm so whiny about twelve steps. The larger point is I> > > like> > > my anger in terms of the I give a hoot about my life feeling that> > > is> > > coming back for me today. And I'm also fed up with giving others> > > so> > > much power to decide what it is safe or cool to feel or not feel.> > > Fed> > > up with buying into the thought not enough.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > I like the idea of having the anger speak to me...thanks for that.> > >> > >> > >> > > terry> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > >> > > To: <ACT_for_the_Public >> > > Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 9:19 AM> > > Subject: Re: Never Enough> > >> > >> > >> > > Hi Terry,> > >> > > I am sorry to hear that you have been feeling so sad and angry of> > > late> > > and that you feel today that your life is not as full as it once> > > was.> > >> > > At least today you are acknowledging you are angry and sad and> > > hopefully you will be able to find a way to defuse from the> > > thoughts> > > that created it and still work toward your valued path.> > >> > > Interestingly I never looked at anger in differing froms, I always> > > saw> > > anger as just that. It was what lead to the anger that I saw as> > > the> > > differering variable, which was the one to watch out for and be> > > mindful of.> > >> > > Maybe you will have a window of time today Terry to sit with your> > > sadness and anger and give it time to speak to you so that you can> > > mindfully establish what is truly leading you to feeling this> > > way(thoughts)about your life lately and hopefully start defusing> > > from> > > it.> > >> > > With loving kindness> > > Jo> > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > I just checked the headlines for the Olympics and read:> > > > > "Phelps> > > > > Suffers Stinging Loss" Is that what's meant in part by this> > > > > "negativity bias"?> > > > > Gee, whatever it is, I noticed my stomach tightened reading> > > > > it...talk about "never good enough" media messaging. Pretty> > > > > sad.> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > terry> > > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 Hi Terry, I first became aware of needing to do something about drinking in 2008 and stumbled on yahoo group for SOS - secular organisations for sobriety, so like ACT_for_the_public, an email group for people who are trying to live sober. I was on that group for about three years without any really lasting sober time - 10 days , 3 weeks here and there. I then did go to a weekly AA meeting, following a suggestion from a friend that I was fooling myself if I thought I was managing the problem and they suggested it was worth a try. I found the face to face meetings helped as I did finally admit to myself that my consumption of alcohol (by this time minimum 2 bottles of wine a day) was not something I could simply manage. I really struggled with the steps as they are written, and things like the structure of readings parts from the book (too religious for my liking and I don't subscribe to any religions). I also fundamentally don't believe that I am powerless. I found the book ridiculous - couldn't read it. Out dated etc. Also, in my time on the SOS site I had read a lot of complaints from people about AA being cult like - this wasn't my experience I have to say but there were overtones of helplessness and the sense that I could not stay sober without meetings - and I could never see myself going week after week, hearing the same stories, telling the same stories etc etc. So I lasted about six months of one meeting per week, but the face to face time got me enough sober time (2-3 months) to make the difference to me being able to make that last, and somewhere along the way I found that being sober is very very precious to me and something I want to protect. I really like the online group which goes beyond substance abuse/sobriety to being a community of women(there are two groups but I prefer the one specifically for women) where you can whinge, vent and melt down and know you will get a compassionate response. there are women at all stages of recovery and I find reading over and over again the women in early stages of recovery is the perfect daily reminder of where I have come from and why being sober Is so precious to me. Many substance abusers have underlying depression and anxiety so this a frequent topic of conversation. In the first few months of recovery I read Charlotte Kasl's Many Roads One Journey: Moving Beyond the 12 Steps which is a wonderful treatment of women's addiction issues - whether you are interested in 12 step programmes or not. This is an often recommended book in the SOS women's group which I got a lot out of and explains how, for examples, AA's attitude to anger and self esteem may not be very good for women in recovery. Hope this helps. I will add that getting sober did not really lift my depression as I had hoped but I did get to a better place from which to deal with it. I've only been reading about ACT for about a month but the ideas do sing to me as they have already been part of my journey (I just didn't have a conceptual framework for it before). cheers, Hey , I am still learning how to navigate the 12-step scene. It's very tricky for me. Layered emotions like anger, fear, regret, hurt..they're so nuanced that a huge program isn't going to be able to address this stuff very effectively for every single addict. I'm just glad to notice even that. Thanks to my ability to defuse and stay with values, I keep going and find good in a few meetings here and there. But I really need to remember to hold lightly and remember why I'm going. It gets noisy very fast in those rooms. Would you mind sharing some about your different path? What works for you? thanks, terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 12:09 AMSubject: Re: Re: Never Enough Hi Terry, I agree with you about AA not quite getting female anger. In my experience, for many women one of the first things they need to do when getting sober is learn how to be productive with anger, as you say when it is about standing up for yourself and building self esteem. I think a lot of the AA approaches are based on a different time and not ideally suited to many women. I certainly chose a very different path I don't know what has led to my feeling feisty today but I like it. I am remembering the fight I had in me and it's been beaten down to a pulp in recent decade of my life. I fell way off the grid. Lost jobs and so forth. So it's a different scale than most here, who still have income, jobs. In the recovery community groups I go to, there is a lot of talk about anger being a sign of too much ego and leading up to a drink. I think it can if you fuse with it and have the anger be the end of the story. I also notice that in general the men in the program experience anger differently than women. For some women (myself included), it's very empowering to allow for anger. Unfortunately, these nuances aren't elaborated upon in meetings and so anger gets lumped into the very unbecoming, something you really want to get rid of NOW category...a sign you're not working a spiritual healthy program, praying enough, helping others enough..blah blah...part of the seven deadly sins crap. Sorry I'm so whiny about twelve steps. The larger point is I like my anger in terms of the I give a hoot about my life feeling that is coming back for me today. And I'm also fed up with giving others so much power to decide what it is safe or cool to feel or not feel. Fed up with buying into the thought not enough. I like the idea of having the anger speak to me...thanks for that. terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 9:19 AMSubject: Re: Never Enough Hi Terry,I am sorry to hear that you have been feeling so sad and angry of late and that you feel today that your life is not as full as it once was. At least today you are acknowledging you are angry and sad and hopefully you will be able to find a way to defuse from the thoughts that created it and still work toward your valued path. Interestingly I never looked at anger in differing froms, I always saw anger as just that. It was what lead to the anger that I saw as the differering variable, which was the one to watch out for and be mindful of. Maybe you will have a window of time today Terry to sit with your sadness and anger and give it time to speak to you so that you can mindfully establish what is truly leading you to feeling this way(thoughts)about your life lately and hopefully start defusing from it. With loving kindnessJo > >> > I just checked the headlines for the Olympics and read: " Phelps Suffers Stinging Loss " Is that what's meant in part by this " negativity bias " ?> > Gee, whatever it is, I noticed my stomach tightened reading it...talk about " never good enough " media messaging. Pretty sad. > > > > > > terry> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 Thanks for sharing your experience and welcome to this ACT group. I'm not able to write too much now, but just want to back up some here because I'm pretty sensitive these days about how easy it is to start a story about AA or about elements of AA, pro or con, and then fuse with it and keep going. I hope I haven't begun to tell a story about AA and women's anger. I don't remember quite saying that AA doesn't get female anger. I really hope that's not the takeaway here, at least that's not what where I was going when I was blowing off steam the other day. Lots and lots of women helped in AA, here in 2012, and I'm one of them.terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 10:17 PM Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough Hi Terry, I first became aware of needing to do something about drinking in 2008 and stumbled on yahoo group for SOS - secular organisations for sobriety, so like ACT_for_the_public, an email group for people who are trying to live sober. I was on that group for about three years without any really lasting sober time - 10 days , 3 weeks here and there. I then did go to a weekly AA meeting, following a suggestion from a friend that I was fooling myself if I thought I was managing the problem and they suggested it was worth a try. I found the face to face meetings helped as I did finally admit to myself that my consumption of alcohol (by this time minimum 2 bottles of wine a day) was not something I could simply manage. I really struggled with the steps as they are written, and things like the structure of readings parts from the book (too religious for my liking and I don't subscribe to any religions). I also fundamentally don't believe that I am powerless. I found the book ridiculous - couldn't read it. Out dated etc. Also, in my time on the SOS site I had read a lot of complaints from people about AA being cult like - this wasn't my experience I have to say but there were overtones of helplessness and the sense that I could not stay sober without meetings - and I could never see myself going week after week, hearing the same stories, telling the same stories etc etc. So I lasted about six months of one meeting per week, but the face to face time got me enough sober time (2-3 months) to make the difference to me being able to make that last, and somewhere along the way I found that being sober is very very precious to me and something I want to protect. I really like the online group which goes beyond substance abuse/sobriety to being a community of women(there are two groups but I prefer the one specifically for women) where you can whinge, vent and melt down and know you will get a compassionate response. there are women at all stages of recovery and I find reading over and over again the women in early stages of recovery is the perfect daily reminder of where I have come from and why being sober Is so precious to me. Many substance abusers have underlying depression and anxiety so this a frequent topic of conversation. In the first few months of recovery I read Charlotte Kasl's Many Roads One Journey: Moving Beyond the 12 Steps which is a wonderful treatment of women's addiction issues - whether you are interested in 12 step programmes or not. This is an often recommended book in the SOS women's group which I got a lot out of and explains how, for examples, AA's attitude to anger and self esteem may not be very good for women in recovery. Hope this helps. I will add that getting sober did not really lift my depression as I had hoped but I did get to a better place from which to deal with it. I've only been reading about ACT for about a month but the ideas do sing to me as they have already been part of my journey (I just didn't have a conceptual framework for it before). cheers, Hey , I am still learning how to navigate the 12-step scene. It's very tricky for me. Layered emotions like anger, fear, regret, hurt..they're so nuanced that a huge program isn't going to be able to address this stuff very effectively for every single addict. I'm just glad to notice even that. Thanks to my ability to defuse and stay with values, I keep going and find good in a few meetings here and there. But I really need to remember to hold lightly and remember why I'm going. It gets noisy very fast in those rooms. Would you mind sharing some about your different path? What works for you? thanks, terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 12:09 AMSubject: Re: Re: Never Enough Hi Terry, I agree with you about AA not quite getting female anger. In my experience, for many women one of the first things they need to do when getting sober is learn how to be productive with anger, as you say when it is about standing up for yourself and building self esteem. I think a lot of the AA approaches are based on a different time and not ideally suited to many women. I certainly chose a very different path I don't know what has led to my feeling feisty today but I like it. I am remembering the fight I had in me and it's been beaten down to a pulp in recent decade of my life. I fell way off the grid. Lost jobs and so forth. So it's a different scale than most here, who still have income, jobs. In the recovery community groups I go to, there is a lot of talk about anger being a sign of too much ego and leading up to a drink. I think it can if you fuse with it and have the anger be the end of the story. I also notice that in general the men in the program experience anger differently than women. For some women (myself included), it's very empowering to allow for anger. Unfortunately, these nuances aren't elaborated upon in meetings and so anger gets lumped into the very unbecoming, something you really want to get rid of NOW category...a sign you're not working a spiritual healthy program, praying enough, helping others enough..blah blah...part of the seven deadly sins crap. Sorry I'm so whiny about twelve steps. The larger point is I like my anger in terms of the I give a hoot about my life feeling that is coming back for me today. And I'm also fed up with giving others so much power to decide what it is safe or cool to feel or not feel. Fed up with buying into the thought not enough. I like the idea of having the anger speak to me...thanks for that. terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 9:19 AMSubject: Re: Never Enough Hi Terry,I am sorry to hear that you have been feeling so sad and angry of late and that you feel today that your life is not as full as it once was. At least today you are acknowledging you are angry and sad and hopefully you will be able to find a way to defuse from the thoughts that created it and still work toward your valued path. Interestingly I never looked at anger in differing froms, I always saw anger as just that. It was what lead to the anger that I saw as the differering variable, which was the one to watch out for and be mindful of. Maybe you will have a window of time today Terry to sit with your sadness and anger and give it time to speak to you so that you can mindfully establish what is truly leading you to feeling this way(thoughts)about your life lately and hopefully start defusing from it. With loving kindnessJo > >> > I just checked the headlines for the Olympics and read: "Phelps Suffers Stinging Loss" Is that what's meant in part by this "negativity bias"?> > Gee, whatever it is, I noticed my stomach tightened reading it...talk about "never good enough" media messaging. Pretty sad. > > > > > > terry> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2012 Report Share Posted August 2, 2012 Hey there and everyone, First off, just want to say thanks to this amazing list so much for the space here to just vent some in this thread about "not enough", about my experience as a woman feeling angry about what is acceptable, about being graded and judged, and about AA. There is so much here for me to look at and I'm too close to speak to it but .. , you know, I looked over my last few posts and I can absolutely see where my words would tend to lead one to conclude I was generalizing and concluding that "AA doesn't get female anger.". Makes sense you'd hear that and respond in kind. And..I'm glad you did. I'm glad to have you here. I'm thinking we need many voices for such a difficult problem. All are welcome. More later as i continue to sit with all this. warm regards,terry To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 9:56 PM Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough Thanks for sharing your experience and welcome to this ACT group. I'm not able to write too much now, but just want to back up some here because I'm pretty sensitive these days about how easy it is to start a story about AA or about elements of AA, pro or con, and then fuse with it and keep going. I hope I haven't begun to tell a story about AA and women's anger. I don't remember quite saying that AA doesn't get female anger. I really hope that's not the takeaway here, at least that's not what where I was going when I was blowing off steam the other day. Lots and lots of women helped in AA, here in 2012, and I'm one of them.terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 10:17 PM Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough Hi Terry, I first became aware of needing to do something about drinking in 2008 and stumbled on yahoo group for SOS - secular organisations for sobriety, so like ACT_for_the_public, an email group for people who are trying to live sober. I was on that group for about three years without any really lasting sober time - 10 days , 3 weeks here and there. I then did go to a weekly AA meeting, following a suggestion from a friend that I was fooling myself if I thought I was managing the problem and they suggested it was worth a try. I found the face to face meetings helped as I did finally admit to myself that my consumption of alcohol (by this time minimum 2 bottles of wine a day) was not something I could simply manage. I really struggled with the steps as they are written, and things like the structure of readings parts from the book (too religious for my liking and I don't subscribe to any religions). I also fundamentally don't believe that I am powerless. I found the book ridiculous - couldn't read it. Out dated etc. Also, in my time on the SOS site I had read a lot of complaints from people about AA being cult like - this wasn't my experience I have to say but there were overtones of helplessness and the sense that I could not stay sober without meetings - and I could never see myself going week after week, hearing the same stories, telling the same stories etc etc. So I lasted about six months of one meeting per week, but the face to face time got me enough sober time (2-3 months) to make the difference to me being able to make that last, and somewhere along the way I found that being sober is very very precious to me and something I want to protect. I really like the online group which goes beyond substance abuse/sobriety to being a community of women(there are two groups but I prefer the one specifically for women) where you can whinge, vent and melt down and know you will get a compassionate response. there are women at all stages of recovery and I find reading over and over again the women in early stages of recovery is the perfect daily reminder of where I have come from and why being sober Is so precious to me. Many substance abusers have underlying depression and anxiety so this a frequent topic of conversation. In the first few months of recovery I read Charlotte Kasl's Many Roads One Journey: Moving Beyond the 12 Steps which is a wonderful treatment of women's addiction issues - whether you are interested in 12 step programmes or not. This is an often recommended book in the SOS women's group which I got a lot out of and explains how, for examples, AA's attitude to anger and self esteem may not be very good for women in recovery. Hope this helps. I will add that getting sober did not really lift my depression as I had hoped but I did get to a better place from which to deal with it. I've only been reading about ACT for about a month but the ideas do sing to me as they have already been part of my journey (I just didn't have a conceptual framework for it before). cheers, Hey , I am still learning how to navigate the 12-step scene. It's very tricky for me. Layered emotions like anger, fear, regret, hurt..they're so nuanced that a huge program isn't going to be able to address this stuff very effectively for every single addict. I'm just glad to notice even that. Thanks to my ability to defuse and stay with values, I keep going and find good in a few meetings here and there. But I really need to remember to hold lightly and remember why I'm going. It gets noisy very fast in those rooms. Would you mind sharing some about your different path? What works for you? thanks, terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 12:09 AMSubject: Re: Re: Never Enough Hi Terry, I agree with you about AA not quite getting female anger. In my experience, for many women one of the first things they need to do when getting sober is learn how to be productive with anger, as you say when it is about standing up for yourself and building self esteem. I think a lot of the AA approaches are based on a different time and not ideally suited to many women. I certainly chose a very different path I don't know what has led to my feeling feisty today but I like it. I am remembering the fight I had in me and it's been beaten down to a pulp in recent decade of my life. I fell way off the grid. Lost jobs and so forth. So it's a different scale than most here, who still have income, jobs. In the recovery community groups I go to, there is a lot of talk about anger being a sign of too much ego and leading up to a drink. I think it can if you fuse with it and have the anger be the end of the story. I also notice that in general the men in the program experience anger differently than women. For some women (myself included), it's very empowering to allow for anger. Unfortunately, these nuances aren't elaborated upon in meetings and so anger gets lumped into the very unbecoming, something you really want to get rid of NOW category...a sign you're not working a spiritual healthy program, praying enough, helping others enough..blah blah...part of the seven deadly sins crap. Sorry I'm so whiny about twelve steps. The larger point is I like my anger in terms of the I give a hoot about my life feeling that is coming back for me today. And I'm also fed up with giving others so much power to decide what it is safe or cool to feel or not feel. Fed up with buying into the thought not enough. I like the idea of having the anger speak to me...thanks for that. terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 9:19 AMSubject: Re: Never Enough Hi Terry,I am sorry to hear that you have been feeling so sad and angry of late and that you feel today that your life is not as full as it once was. At least today you are acknowledging you are angry and sad and hopefully you will be able to find a way to defuse from the thoughts that created it and still work toward your valued path. Interestingly I never looked at anger in differing froms, I always saw anger as just that. It was what lead to the anger that I saw as the differering variable, which was the one to watch out for and be mindful of. Maybe you will have a window of time today Terry to sit with your sadness and anger and give it time to speak to you so that you can mindfully establish what is truly leading you to feeling this way(thoughts)about your life lately and hopefully start defusing from it. With loving kindnessJo > >> > I just checked the headlines for the Olympics and read: "Phelps Suffers Stinging Loss" Is that what's meant in part by this "negativity bias"?> > Gee, whatever it is, I noticed my stomach tightened reading it...talk about "never good enough" media messaging. Pretty sad. > > > > > > terry> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2012 Report Share Posted August 2, 2012 Henrik,Thank you so much for your very kind words. I agree it's very good to let whatever is there just bubble up. It still is..and this is Thursday..four days later!I just can't tell you how refreshing this response is for me. I don't usually come upon folks who know so little of the AA culture, folks who either are "pro" or "con" or seem to have some opinion, some axe to grind, some sort of point to make. I miss that sort of objective distance. Just to set the record straight...you can say ANY damn thing in AA and they can't kick you out. For 3-5 minutes (if you get called on or if you just jump in or whatever..that's another story..how the turn-taking goes), the floor is yours. There is no need to ask for "permission" or get feedback. Permission is implicitly granted when you identify yourself as an alcoholic and then some meetings use a timer and you get to just let it all hang out.. There is no cross-talk, so it's not like a therapy group. It's just a bunch of mini-speeches for lack of a better description. And the meetings are pretty big in my area, so you sometimes don't get a chance to share at all since they're just an hour and lots of other stuff like praying and reciting verses from the Book and business ($ issues) are all dealt with. So more like 45-50 minutes for the average of 20-50 people to share. That said, I really love the essence of what you are saying here about just going slow and reading my company and having compassion for where they may be as well. I'll address more of this later.With warm regards,terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 5:05 PM Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough Hi Terry, I can try: adjusting to the context: 1. If I'm upset about X (like people not being respected or something else), and I talk in a confrontational way about it to people who may be partly responsible for that - I don't "take in" or "see" what they're coming from. I want the talk to be in the service of setting limits and expressing my view and at the same time not making enemies or losing friends. If I try and change perspective before I talk though: how must it be for them - I where them - if I had their responsibilities and their limitations (everybody has limitations) - how would I view the situation?Then I would possibly soften my voice, express my concern to them and listen for solutions. Maybe chip in positive reinforcement if some of the solutions seemed good, and maybe suggesting some solutions myself after a while... I find this very difficult - I must tell you! 2. Like if I where at an AA meeting (I've never been to one, but I'll pretend) - Maybe these women and men have never had the practice or opportunity to express anger - ever... Maybe they where physically or verbally abused when they got mad? With that in mind - I then could perhaps frame my anger very carefully during an AA meeting: Like: "You know, I'm not angry at any of you - I don't want you to rescue me or hold my hand - I just need to say theses things. I may sound angry when I say them - but that's just old stuff. I'm not angry at any of you - it's just my stuff, but I feel safe here and I would love to be able to be genuine with you. Would that be OK for you? Please let me know if I should stop - I'd be grateful if you tell me to stop - if you think I should, but it would be so helpful for me if I could speak freely for a few minutes without having to watch my tone of voice just this time."You know... making them safe assuming that anger in other people scare the c-ap out of them. Asking for permission first is usually the magic trick. This will also connect with them. If they allow you to speak freely while having the possibility to say no, they will themselves get that they can do the same. It will create a good support group climate in the long run. I think you should be so happy that you can finally express your anger. Even in baby steps. Thanks, Henrik Hi Henrik,Your chipping is always welcome! You are a warm voice here, popping innow and again. Yes, I try too hard to keep everything balanced andperfect! I think that's why I smile when Steve says things like: "Oh,excuse me for being human". And I like when he speaks ofself-empowerment vs.self esteem. That feels valuable.Let's see...You know, I don't really know if I've repressed anger, andI'm not really sure it's even "anger" per se I'm even speaking to inthis thread. This may sound splitting hairs, but I'm finding itimportant to be more accurate in how I'm describing my process because Iam humbled by what happens when I'm not.But I guess that's a good enough word to use for now..I'm not sure I understand what you're saying in the second half of yourpost about having the expression fit the person in front of me. Itsounds important. Are you talking about adjusting to the context? Canyou maybe give an example?thanks so much,terryTo: "ACT_for_the_Public "<ACT_for_the_Public >; ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 1:54 PMSubject: Re: Re: Never EnoughJust chipping in, from my maybe "male" point of view. I think it's greatthat you just start getting angry, if you've repressed that and gone theopposite way for very long. If you're too intent on exactly how you'regoing to express it in the beginning it might perhaps stop thisimportant process. Once you have the anger : I really mean settingreasonable limits - then the next step could perhaps be moderating yourexpression to fit the person in front of you. I think as I've grown,I've not been very balanced at times, but I couldn't do it any better. Ihave reasoned with myself and friends: better to express yourself in anunbalanced way in the beginning than to keep quiet and not being able toreally slip out of the ancient pattern of submissiveness.My two cents,Warmly,Henrik> > > > > Hey ,> > > > > > I am still learning how to navigate the 12-step scene. It's very> tricky> for me. Layered emotions like anger, fear, regret, hurt..they're so> nuanced that a huge program isn't going to be able to address this> stuff> very effectively for every single addict. I'm just glad to notice even> that. Thanks to my ability to defuse and stay with values, I keep> going> and find good in a few meetings here and there. But I really need to> remember to hold lightly and remember why I'm going. It gets noisy> very> fast in those rooms.> > > > > > Would you mind sharing some about your different path? What works for> you?> > > > > > thanks,> > > terry> > > > > > > To: <ACT_for_the_Public >> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 12:09 AM> Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough> > > > Hi Terry,> > > > I agree with you about AA not quite getting female anger. In my> experience, for many women one of the first things they need to do> when> getting sober is learn how to be productive with anger, as you say> when> it is about standing up for yourself and building self esteem. I think> a> lot of the AA approaches are based on a different time and not ideally> suited to many women. I certainly chose a very different path> > > > > > > > > > > > On 30 July 2012 00:43, Theresa Linder >> wrote:> > > >> >> >> >> > I don't know what has led to my feeling feisty today but I like it.> > I> > am remembering the fight I had in me and it's been beaten down to a> > pulp in recent decade of my life. I fell way off the grid. Lost jobs> > and so forth. So it's a different scale than most here, who still> > have> > income, jobs.> >> >> >> > In the recovery community groups I go to, there is a lot of talk> > about> > anger being a sign of too much ego and leading up to a drink. I> > think> > it can if you fuse with it and have the anger be the end of the> > story.> > I also notice that in general the men in the program experience> > anger> > differently than women. For some women (myself included), it's very> > empowering to allow for anger. Unfortunately, these nuances aren't> > elaborated upon in meetings and so anger gets lumped into the very> > unbecoming, something you really want to get rid of NOW category...a> > sign you're not working a spiritual healthy program, praying enough,> > helping others enough..blah blah...part of the seven deadly sins> > crap.Sorry I'm so whiny about twelve steps. The larger point is I> > like> > my anger in terms of the I give a hoot about my life feeling that is> > coming back for me today. And I'm also fed up with giving others so> > much power to decide what it is safe or cool to feel or not feel.> > Fed> > up with buying into the thought not enough.> >> >> >> >> > I like the idea of having the anger speak to me...thanks for that.> >> >> >> > terry> >> >> >> >> > >> > To: <ACT_for_the_Public >> > Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 9:19 AM> > Subject: Re: Never Enough> >> >> >> > Hi Terry,> >> > I am sorry to hear that you have been feeling so sad and angry of> > late> > and that you feel today that your life is not as full as it once> > was.> >> > At least today you are acknowledging you are angry and sad and> > hopefully you will be able to find a way to defuse from the thoughts> > that created it and still work toward your valued path.> >> > Interestingly I never looked at anger in differing froms, I always> > saw> > anger as just that. It was what lead to the anger that I saw as the> > differering variable, which was the one to watch out for and be> > mindful of.> >> > Maybe you will have a window of time today Terry to sit with your> > sadness and anger and give it time to speak to you so that you can> > mindfully establish what is truly leading you to feeling this> > way(thoughts)about your life lately and hopefully start defusing> > from> > it.> >> > With loving kindness> > Jo> >> > > > > >> > > > I just checked the headlines for the Olympics and read: "Phelps> > > > Suffers Stinging Loss" Is that what's meant in part by this> > > > "negativity bias"?> > > > Gee, whatever it is, I noticed my stomach tightened reading> > > > it...talk about "never good enough" media messaging. Pretty sad.> > > >> > > >> > > > terry> > > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2012 Report Share Posted August 2, 2012 That average BTW of total people is probably a bit too high...but you get the idea..it really varies. To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Thursday, August 2, 2012 1:03 PM Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough Henrik,Thank you so much for your very kind words. I agree it's very good to let whatever is there just bubble up. It still is..and this is Thursday..four days later!I just can't tell you how refreshing this response is for me. I don't usually come upon folks who know so little of the AA culture, folks who either are "pro" or "con" or seem to have some opinion, some axe to grind, some sort of point to make. I miss that sort of objective distance. Just to set the record straight...you can say ANY damn thing in AA and they can't kick you out. For 3-5 minutes (if you get called on or if you just jump in or whatever..that's another story..how the turn-taking goes), the floor is yours. There is no need to ask for "permission" or get feedback. Permission is implicitly granted when you identify yourself as an alcoholic and then some meetings use a timer and you get to just let it all hang out.. There is no cross-talk, so it's not like a therapy group. It's just a bunch of mini-speeches for lack of a better description. And the meetings are pretty big in my area, so you sometimes don't get a chance to share at all since they're just an hour and lots of other stuff like praying and reciting verses from the Book and business ($ issues) are all dealt with. So more like 45-50 minutes for the average of 20-50 people to share. That said, I really love the essence of what you are saying here about just going slow and reading my company and having compassion for where they may be as well. I'll address more of this later.With warm regards,terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 5:05 PM Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough Hi Terry, I can try: adjusting to the context: 1. If I'm upset about X (like people not being respected or something else), and I talk in a confrontational way about it to people who may be partly responsible for that - I don't "take in" or "see" what they're coming from. I want the talk to be in the service of setting limits and expressing my view and at the same time not making enemies or losing friends. If I try and change perspective before I talk though: how must it be for them - I where them - if I had their responsibilities and their limitations (everybody has limitations) - how would I view the situation?Then I would possibly soften my voice, express my concern to them and listen for solutions. Maybe chip in positive reinforcement if some of the solutions seemed good, and maybe suggesting some solutions myself after a while... I find this very difficult - I must tell you! 2. Like if I where at an AA meeting (I've never been to one, but I'll pretend) - Maybe these women and men have never had the practice or opportunity to express anger - ever... Maybe they where physically or verbally abused when they got mad? With that in mind - I then could perhaps frame my anger very carefully during an AA meeting: Like: "You know, I'm not angry at any of you - I don't want you to rescue me or hold my hand - I just need to say theses things. I may sound angry when I say them - but that's just old stuff. I'm not angry at any of you - it's just my stuff, but I feel safe here and I would love to be able to be genuine with you. Would that be OK for you? Please let me know if I should stop - I'd be grateful if you tell me to stop - if you think I should, but it would be so helpful for me if I could speak freely for a few minutes without having to watch my tone of voice just this time."You know... making them safe assuming that anger in other people scare the c-ap out of them. Asking for permission first is usually the magic trick. This will also connect with them. If they allow you to speak freely while having the possibility to say no, they will themselves get that they can do the same. It will create a good support group climate in the long run. I think you should be so happy that you can finally express your anger. Even in baby steps. Thanks, Henrik Hi Henrik,Your chipping is always welcome! You are a warm voice here, popping innow and again. Yes, I try too hard to keep everything balanced andperfect! I think that's why I smile when Steve says things like: "Oh,excuse me for being human". And I like when he speaks ofself-empowerment vs.self esteem. That feels valuable.Let's see...You know, I don't really know if I've repressed anger, andI'm not really sure it's even "anger" per se I'm even speaking to inthis thread. This may sound splitting hairs, but I'm finding itimportant to be more accurate in how I'm describing my process because Iam humbled by what happens when I'm not.But I guess that's a good enough word to use for now..I'm not sure I understand what you're saying in the second half of yourpost about having the expression fit the person in front of me. Itsounds important. Are you talking about adjusting to the context? Canyou maybe give an example?thanks so much,terryTo: "ACT_for_the_Public "<ACT_for_the_Public >; ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 1:54 PMSubject: Re: Re: Never EnoughJust chipping in, from my maybe "male" point of view. I think it's greatthat you just start getting angry, if you've repressed that and gone theopposite way for very long. If you're too intent on exactly how you'regoing to express it in the beginning it might perhaps stop thisimportant process. Once you have the anger : I really mean settingreasonable limits - then the next step could perhaps be moderating yourexpression to fit the person in front of you. I think as I've grown,I've not been very balanced at times, but I couldn't do it any better. Ihave reasoned with myself and friends: better to express yourself in anunbalanced way in the beginning than to keep quiet and not being able toreally slip out of the ancient pattern of submissiveness.My two cents,Warmly,Henrik> > > > > Hey ,> > > > > > I am still learning how to navigate the 12-step scene. It's very> tricky> for me. Layered emotions like anger, fear, regret, hurt..they're so> nuanced that a huge program isn't going to be able to address this> stuff> very effectively for every single addict. I'm just glad to notice even> that. Thanks to my ability to defuse and stay with values, I keep> going> and find good in a few meetings here and there. But I really need to> remember to hold lightly and remember why I'm going. It gets noisy> very> fast in those rooms.> > > > > > Would you mind sharing some about your different path? What works for> you?> > > > > > thanks,> > > terry> > > > > > > To: <ACT_for_the_Public >> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 12:09 AM> Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough> > > > Hi Terry,> > > > I agree with you about AA not quite getting female anger. In my> experience, for many women one of the first things they need to do> when> getting sober is learn how to be productive with anger, as you say> when> it is about standing up for yourself and building self esteem. I think> a> lot of the AA approaches are based on a different time and not ideally> suited to many women. I certainly chose a very different path> > > > > > > > > > > > On 30 July 2012 00:43, Theresa Linder >> wrote:> > > >> >> >> >> > I don't know what has led to my feeling feisty today but I like it.> > I> > am remembering the fight I had in me and it's been beaten down to a> > pulp in recent decade of my life. I fell way off the grid. Lost jobs> > and so forth. So it's a different scale than most here, who still> > have> > income, jobs.> >> >> >> > In the recovery community groups I go to, there is a lot of talk> > about> > anger being a sign of too much ego and leading up to a drink. I> > think> > it can if you fuse with it and have the anger be the end of the> > story.> > I also notice that in general the men in the program experience> > anger> > differently than women. For some women (myself included), it's very> > empowering to allow for anger. Unfortunately, these nuances aren't> > elaborated upon in meetings and so anger gets lumped into the very> > unbecoming, something you really want to get rid of NOW category...a> > sign you're not working a spiritual healthy program, praying enough,> > helping others enough..blah blah...part of the seven deadly sins> > crap.Sorry I'm so whiny about twelve steps. The larger point is I> > like> > my anger in terms of the I give a hoot about my life feeling that is> > coming back for me today. And I'm also fed up with giving others so> > much power to decide what it is safe or cool to feel or not feel.> > Fed> > up with buying into the thought not enough.> >> >> >> >> > I like the idea of having the anger speak to me...thanks for that.> >> >> >> > terry> >> >> >> >> > >> > To: <ACT_for_the_Public >> > Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 9:19 AM> > Subject: Re: Never Enough> >> >> >> > Hi Terry,> >> > I am sorry to hear that you have been feeling so sad and angry of> > late> > and that you feel today that your life is not as full as it once> > was.> >> > At least today you are acknowledging you are angry and sad and> > hopefully you will be able to find a way to defuse from the thoughts> > that created it and still work toward your valued path.> >> > Interestingly I never looked at anger in differing froms, I always> > saw> > anger as just that. It was what lead to the anger that I saw as the> > differering variable, which was the one to watch out for and be> > mindful of.> >> > Maybe you will have a window of time today Terry to sit with your> > sadness and anger and give it time to speak to you so that you can> > mindfully establish what is truly leading you to feeling this> > way(thoughts)about your life lately and hopefully start defusing> > from> > it.> >> > With loving kindness> > Jo> >> > > > > >> > > > I just checked the headlines for the Olympics and read: "Phelps> > > > Suffers Stinging Loss" Is that what's meant in part by this> > > > "negativity bias"?> > > > Gee, whatever it is, I noticed my stomach tightened reading> > > > it...talk about "never good enough" media messaging. Pretty sad.> > > >> > > >> > > > terry> > > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2012 Report Share Posted August 2, 2012 Hi Therese,Thanks for your response. I may have jumped the gun a bit with my response as in the SOS group I'm in there are those for whom AA was not the solution for various reasons, mostly the higher power/powerless stuff - other women got hit on by sponsors etc. I think it very much depends on the group. That said, there is a smorgasbord of recovery tools out there and whatever works for you - go with it; whatever doesn't - ditch it. Hey there and everyone, First off, just want to say thanks to this amazing list so much for the space here to just vent some in this thread about " not enough " , about my experience as a woman feeling angry about what is acceptable, about being graded and judged, and about AA. There is so much here for me to look at and I'm too close to speak to it but .. , you know, I looked over my last few posts and I can absolutely see where my words would tend to lead one to conclude I was generalizing and concluding that " AA doesn't get female anger. " . Makes sense you'd hear that and respond in kind. And..I'm glad you did. I'm glad to have you here. I'm thinking we need many voices for such a difficult problem. All are welcome. More later as i continue to sit with all this. warm regards,terry To: " ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 9:56 PM Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough Thanks for sharing your experience and welcome to this ACT group. I'm not able to write too much now, but just want to back up some here because I'm pretty sensitive these days about how easy it is to start a story about AA or about elements of AA, pro or con, and then fuse with it and keep going. I hope I haven't begun to tell a story about AA and women's anger. I don't remember quite saying that AA doesn't get female anger. I really hope that's not the takeaway here, at least that's not what where I was going when I was blowing off steam the other day. Lots and lots of women helped in AA, here in 2012, and I'm one of them. terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 10:17 PM Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough Hi Terry, I first became aware of needing to do something about drinking in 2008 and stumbled on yahoo group for SOS - secular organisations for sobriety, so like ACT_for_the_public, an email group for people who are trying to live sober. I was on that group for about three years without any really lasting sober time - 10 days , 3 weeks here and there. I then did go to a weekly AA meeting, following a suggestion from a friend that I was fooling myself if I thought I was managing the problem and they suggested it was worth a try. I found the face to face meetings helped as I did finally admit to myself that my consumption of alcohol (by this time minimum 2 bottles of wine a day) was not something I could simply manage. I really struggled with the steps as they are written, and things like the structure of readings parts from the book (too religious for my liking and I don't subscribe to any religions). I also fundamentally don't believe that I am powerless. I found the book ridiculous - couldn't read it. Out dated etc. Also, in my time on the SOS site I had read a lot of complaints from people about AA being cult like - this wasn't my experience I have to say but there were overtones of helplessness and the sense that I could not stay sober without meetings - and I could never see myself going week after week, hearing the same stories, telling the same stories etc etc. So I lasted about six months of one meeting per week, but the face to face time got me enough sober time (2-3 months) to make the difference to me being able to make that last, and somewhere along the way I found that being sober is very very precious to me and something I want to protect. I really like the online group which goes beyond substance abuse/sobriety to being a community of women(there are two groups but I prefer the one specifically for women) where you can whinge, vent and melt down and know you will get a compassionate response. there are women at all stages of recovery and I find reading over and over again the women in early stages of recovery is the perfect daily reminder of where I have come from and why being sober Is so precious to me. Many substance abusers have underlying depression and anxiety so this a frequent topic of conversation. In the first few months of recovery I read Charlotte Kasl's Many Roads One Journey: Moving Beyond the 12 Steps which is a wonderful treatment of women's addiction issues - whether you are interested in 12 step programmes or not. This is an often recommended book in the SOS women's group which I got a lot out of and explains how, for examples, AA's attitude to anger and self esteem may not be very good for women in recovery. Hope this helps. I will add that getting sober did not really lift my depression as I had hoped but I did get to a better place from which to deal with it. I've only been reading about ACT for about a month but the ideas do sing to me as they have already been part of my journey (I just didn't have a conceptual framework for it before). cheers, Hey , I am still learning how to navigate the 12-step scene. It's very tricky for me. Layered emotions like anger, fear, regret, hurt..they're so nuanced that a huge program isn't going to be able to address this stuff very effectively for every single addict. I'm just glad to notice even that. Thanks to my ability to defuse and stay with values, I keep going and find good in a few meetings here and there. But I really need to remember to hold lightly and remember why I'm going. It gets noisy very fast in those rooms. Would you mind sharing some about your different path? What works for you? thanks, terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 12:09 AMSubject: Re: Re: Never Enough Hi Terry, I agree with you about AA not quite getting female anger. In my experience, for many women one of the first things they need to do when getting sober is learn how to be productive with anger, as you say when it is about standing up for yourself and building self esteem. I think a lot of the AA approaches are based on a different time and not ideally suited to many women. I certainly chose a very different path I don't know what has led to my feeling feisty today but I like it. I am remembering the fight I had in me and it's been beaten down to a pulp in recent decade of my life. I fell way off the grid. Lost jobs and so forth. So it's a different scale than most here, who still have income, jobs. In the recovery community groups I go to, there is a lot of talk about anger being a sign of too much ego and leading up to a drink. I think it can if you fuse with it and have the anger be the end of the story. I also notice that in general the men in the program experience anger differently than women. For some women (myself included), it's very empowering to allow for anger. Unfortunately, these nuances aren't elaborated upon in meetings and so anger gets lumped into the very unbecoming, something you really want to get rid of NOW category...a sign you're not working a spiritual healthy program, praying enough, helping others enough..blah blah...part of the seven deadly sins crap. Sorry I'm so whiny about twelve steps. The larger point is I like my anger in terms of the I give a hoot about my life feeling that is coming back for me today. And I'm also fed up with giving others so much power to decide what it is safe or cool to feel or not feel. Fed up with buying into the thought not enough. I like the idea of having the anger speak to me...thanks for that. terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 9:19 AMSubject: Re: Never Enough Hi Terry,I am sorry to hear that you have been feeling so sad and angry of late and that you feel today that your life is not as full as it once was. At least today you are acknowledging you are angry and sad and hopefully you will be able to find a way to defuse from the thoughts that created it and still work toward your valued path. Interestingly I never looked at anger in differing froms, I always saw anger as just that. It was what lead to the anger that I saw as the differering variable, which was the one to watch out for and be mindful of. Maybe you will have a window of time today Terry to sit with your sadness and anger and give it time to speak to you so that you can mindfully establish what is truly leading you to feeling this way(thoughts)about your life lately and hopefully start defusing from it. With loving kindnessJo > >> > I just checked the headlines for the Olympics and read: " Phelps Suffers Stinging Loss " Is that what's meant in part by this " negativity bias " ?> > Gee, whatever it is, I noticed my stomach tightened reading it...talk about " never good enough " media messaging. Pretty sad. > > > > > > terry> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2012 Report Share Posted August 2, 2012 Women got hit on by sponsors? Seriously, I've never heard of that. Not because AA lacks for horny, sometimes unscrupulous guys but because (at least on the east coast of the US) the tradition of "men sponsor men; women sponsor women" is so ingrained that people don't tend to pair up w/ sponsors of the opposite sex.Jim Hi Therese,Thanks for your response. I may have jumped the gun a bit with my response as in the SOS group I'm in there are those for whom AA was not the solution for various reasons, mostly the higher power/powerless stuff - other women got hit on by sponsors etc. I think it very much depends on the group. That said, there is a smorgasbord of recovery tools out there and whatever works for you - go with it; whatever doesn't - ditch it. Hey there and everyone, First off, just want to say thanks to this amazing list so much for the space here to just vent some in this thread about "not enough", about my experience as a woman feeling angry about what is acceptable, about being graded and judged, and about AA. There is so much here for me to look at and I'm too close to speak to it but .. , you know, I looked over my last few posts and I can absolutely see where my words would tend to lead one to conclude I was generalizing and concluding that "AA doesn't get female anger.". Makes sense you'd hear that and respond in kind. And..I'm glad you did. I'm glad to have you here. I'm thinking we need many voices for such a difficult problem. All are welcome. More later as i continue to sit with all this. warm regards,terry To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 9:56 PM Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough Thanks for sharing your experience and welcome to this ACT group. I'm not able to write too much now, but just want to back up some here because I'm pretty sensitive these days about how easy it is to start a story about AA or about elements of AA, pro or con, and then fuse with it and keep going. I hope I haven't begun to tell a story about AA and women's anger. I don't remember quite saying that AA doesn't get female anger. I really hope that's not the takeaway here, at least that's not what where I was going when I was blowing off steam the other day. Lots and lots of women helped in AA, here in 2012, and I'm one of them. terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 10:17 PM Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough Hi Terry, I first became aware of needing to do something about drinking in 2008 and stumbled on yahoo group for SOS - secular organisations for sobriety, so like ACT_for_the_public, an email group for people who are trying to live sober. I was on that group for about three years without any really lasting sober time - 10 days , 3 weeks here and there. I then did go to a weekly AA meeting, following a suggestion from a friend that I was fooling myself if I thought I was managing the problem and they suggested it was worth a try. I found the face to face meetings helped as I did finally admit to myself that my consumption of alcohol (by this time minimum 2 bottles of wine a day) was not something I could simply manage. I really struggled with the steps as they are written, and things like the structure of readings parts from the book (too religious for my liking and I don't subscribe to any religions). I also fundamentally don't believe that I am powerless. I found the book ridiculous - couldn't read it. Out dated etc. Also, in my time on the SOS site I had read a lot of complaints from people about AA being cult like - this wasn't my experience I have to say but there were overtones of helplessness and the sense that I could not stay sober without meetings - and I could never see myself going week after week, hearing the same stories, telling the same stories etc etc. So I lasted about six months of one meeting per week, but the face to face time got me enough sober time (2-3 months) to make the difference to me being able to make that last, and somewhere along the way I found that being sober is very very precious to me and something I want to protect. I really like the online group which goes beyond substance abuse/sobriety to being a community of women(there are two groups but I prefer the one specifically for women) where you can whinge, vent and melt down and know you will get a compassionate response. there are women at all stages of recovery and I find reading over and over again the women in early stages of recovery is the perfect daily reminder of where I have come from and why being sober Is so precious to me. Many substance abusers have underlying depression and anxiety so this a frequent topic of conversation. In the first few months of recovery I read Charlotte Kasl's Many Roads One Journey: Moving Beyond the 12 Steps which is a wonderful treatment of women's addiction issues - whether you are interested in 12 step programmes or not. This is an often recommended book in the SOS women's group which I got a lot out of and explains how, for examples, AA's attitude to anger and self esteem may not be very good for women in recovery. Hope this helps. I will add that getting sober did not really lift my depression as I had hoped but I did get to a better place from which to deal with it. I've only been reading about ACT for about a month but the ideas do sing to me as they have already been part of my journey (I just didn't have a conceptual framework for it before). cheers, Hey , I am still learning how to navigate the 12-step scene. It's very tricky for me. Layered emotions like anger, fear, regret, hurt..they're so nuanced that a huge program isn't going to be able to address this stuff very effectively for every single addict. I'm just glad to notice even that. Thanks to my ability to defuse and stay with values, I keep going and find good in a few meetings here and there. But I really need to remember to hold lightly and remember why I'm going. It gets noisy very fast in those rooms. Would you mind sharing some about your different path? What works for you? thanks, terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 12:09 AMSubject: Re: Re: Never Enough Hi Terry, I agree with you about AA not quite getting female anger. In my experience, for many women one of the first things they need to do when getting sober is learn how to be productive with anger, as you say when it is about standing up for yourself and building self esteem. I think a lot of the AA approaches are based on a different time and not ideally suited to many women. I certainly chose a very different path I don't know what has led to my feeling feisty today but I like it. I am remembering the fight I had in me and it's been beaten down to a pulp in recent decade of my life. I fell way off the grid. Lost jobs and so forth. So it's a different scale than most here, who still have income, jobs. In the recovery community groups I go to, there is a lot of talk about anger being a sign of too much ego and leading up to a drink. I think it can if you fuse with it and have the anger be the end of the story. I also notice that in general the men in the program experience anger differently than women. For some women (myself included), it's very empowering to allow for anger. Unfortunately, these nuances aren't elaborated upon in meetings and so anger gets lumped into the very unbecoming, something you really want to get rid of NOW category...a sign you're not working a spiritual healthy program, praying enough, helping others enough..blah blah...part of the seven deadly sins crap. Sorry I'm so whiny about twelve steps. The larger point is I like my anger in terms of the I give a hoot about my life feeling that is coming back for me today. And I'm also fed up with giving others so much power to decide what it is safe or cool to feel or not feel. Fed up with buying into the thought not enough. I like the idea of having the anger speak to me...thanks for that. terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 9:19 AMSubject: Re: Never Enough Hi Terry,I am sorry to hear that you have been feeling so sad and angry of late and that you feel today that your life is not as full as it once was. At least today you are acknowledging you are angry and sad and hopefully you will be able to find a way to defuse from the thoughts that created it and still work toward your valued path. Interestingly I never looked at anger in differing froms, I always saw anger as just that. It was what lead to the anger that I saw as the differering variable, which was the one to watch out for and be mindful of. Maybe you will have a window of time today Terry to sit with your sadness and anger and give it time to speak to you so that you can mindfully establish what is truly leading you to feeling this way(thoughts)about your life lately and hopefully start defusing from it. With loving kindnessJo > >> > I just checked the headlines for the Olympics and read: "Phelps Suffers Stinging Loss" Is that what's meant in part by this "negativity bias"?> > Gee, whatever it is, I noticed my stomach tightened reading it...talk about "never good enough" media messaging. Pretty sad. > > > > > > terry> >> Jim Designer | Developerhttp://www.jryanportfolio.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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