Re: Re: Never Enough/Leaning into Values

August 2, 2012

There is something so amazingly awesome that I'm continuing to notice that you Henrik just replied as a 'regular guy' and not really at all invested in this recovery business. I realize these times come infrequently so forgive me for indulging your comments. It's a really, really noisy place this: "get sober now and here's how" stuff. I have a ten year history of this story, back and forth...different versions. I really am ready and want to lay it down and stop fighting and just really listen to my intuitive voice.And so that's where I am and I just wanted to share that with a bunch of you all. You know, this sort of reminds me a bit of what Randy said

recently i none of his lovely posts, about how he looks and listens closely for values in the little interesting things that fly by..in terms of anything..and then records that . (Something like that..sorry for misquoting you..don't' have your post in front of me).Best to all,terry To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Thursday, August 2, 2012 1:12 PM Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough

That average BTW of total people is probably a bit too high...but you get the idea..it really varies. To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Thursday, August 2, 2012 1:03 PM Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough

Henrik,Thank you so much for your very kind words. I agree it's very good to let whatever is there just bubble up. It still is..and this is Thursday..four days later!I just can't tell you how refreshing this response is for me. I don't usually come upon folks who know so little of the AA culture, folks who either are "pro" or "con" or seem to have some opinion, some axe to grind, some sort of point to make. I miss that sort of objective distance. Just to set the record straight...you can say ANY damn thing in AA and they can't kick you out. For 3-5 minutes (if you get called on or if you just

jump in or whatever..that's another story..how the turn-taking goes), the floor is yours. There is no need to ask for "permission" or get feedback. Permission is implicitly granted when you identify yourself as an alcoholic and then some meetings use a timer and you get to just let it all hang out.. There is no cross-talk, so it's not like a therapy group. It's just a bunch of mini-speeches for lack of a better description. And the meetings are pretty big in my area, so you sometimes don't get a chance to share at all since they're just an hour and lots of other stuff like praying and reciting verses from the Book and business ($ issues) are all dealt with. So more like 45-50 minutes for the average of 20-50 people to share. That said, I really love the essence of what you are saying here about just going slow and reading my company and having compassion for where they may be as well. I'll

address more of this later.With warm regards,terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 5:05 PM Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough

Hi Terry, I can try: adjusting to the context: 1. If I'm upset about X (like people not being respected or something else), and I talk in a confrontational way about it to people who may be partly responsible for that - I don't "take in" or "see" what they're coming from. I want the talk to be in the service of setting limits and expressing my view and at the same time not making enemies or losing friends. If I try and change perspective before I talk though: how must it be for them - I where them - if I had their responsibilities and their limitations (everybody has limitations) - how would I view the situation?Then I would possibly soften my voice, express my concern to them and listen for solutions. Maybe chip in positive reinforcement if some of the solutions seemed good, and maybe suggesting some solutions myself after a while... I find this very

difficult - I must tell you! 2. Like if I where at an AA meeting (I've never been to one, but I'll pretend) - Maybe these women and men have never had the practice or opportunity to express anger - ever... Maybe they where physically or verbally abused when they got mad? With that in mind - I then could perhaps frame my anger very carefully during an AA meeting: Like: "You know, I'm not angry at any of you - I don't want you to rescue me or hold my hand - I just need to say theses things. I may sound angry when I say them - but that's just old stuff. I'm not angry at any of you - it's just my stuff, but I feel safe here and I would love to be able to be genuine with you. Would that be OK for you? Please let me know if I should stop - I'd be grateful if you tell me to stop - if you think I should, but it would be so helpful for me if I could speak freely for a few minutes without having to watch my tone of voice just

this time."You know... making them safe assuming that anger in other people scare the c-ap out of them. Asking for permission first is usually the magic trick. This will also connect with them. If they allow you to speak freely while having the possibility to say no, they will themselves get that they can do the same. It will create a good support group climate in the long run. I think you should be so happy that you can finally express your anger. Even in baby steps. Thanks, Henrik Hi Henrik,Your chipping is always welcome! You are a warm voice here, popping innow

and again. Yes, I try too hard to keep everything balanced andperfect! I think that's why I smile when Steve says things like: "Oh,excuse me for being human". And I like when he speaks ofself-empowerment vs.self esteem. That feels valuable.Let's see...You know, I don't really know if I've repressed anger, andI'm not really sure it's even "anger" per se I'm even speaking to inthis thread. This may sound splitting hairs, but I'm finding itimportant to be more accurate in how I'm describing my process because Iam humbled by what happens when I'm not.But I guess that's a good enough word to use for now..I'm not sure I understand what you're saying in the second half of yourpost about having the expression fit the person in front of me. Itsounds important. Are you talking about adjusting to the context? Canyou maybe give an

example?thanks so much,terryTo: "ACT_for_the_Public "<ACT_for_the_Public >; ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 1:54 PMSubject: Re: Re: Never EnoughJust chipping in, from my maybe "male" point of view. I think it's greatthat you just start getting angry, if you've repressed that and gone theopposite way for very long. If you're too intent on exactly how you'regoing to express it in the beginning it might perhaps stop thisimportant process. Once you have the anger : I really mean

settingreasonable limits - then the next step could perhaps be moderating yourexpression to fit the person in front of you. I think as I've grown,I've not been very balanced at times, but I couldn't do it any better. Ihave reasoned with myself and friends: better to express yourself in anunbalanced way in the beginning than to keep quiet and not being able toreally slip out of the ancient pattern of submissiveness.My two cents,Warmly,Henrik> > > > > Hey ,> > > > > > I am still learning how to navigate the 12-step scene. It's very> tricky> for me. Layered emotions like anger, fear,

regret, hurt..they're so> nuanced that a huge program isn't going to be able to address this> stuff> very effectively for every single addict. I'm just glad to notice even> that. Thanks to my ability to defuse and stay with values, I keep> going> and find good in a few meetings here and there. But I really need to> remember to hold lightly and remember why I'm going. It gets noisy> very> fast in those rooms.> > > > > > Would you mind sharing some about your different path? What works for> you?> > > > > > thanks,> > > terry> > > > > > > To: <ACT_for_the_Public >> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 12:09 AM> Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough> > > > Hi Terry,> > > > I agree with you about AA not quite getting female anger. In my> experience, for many women one of the first things they need to do> when> getting sober is learn how to be productive with anger, as you say> when> it is about standing up for yourself and building self esteem. I think> a> lot of the AA approaches are based on a different time and not ideally> suited to many women. I certainly chose a very different path> > > > > > > > > > > > On 30 July 2012 00:43,

Theresa Linder >> wrote:> > > >> >> >> >> > I don't know what has led to my feeling feisty today but I like it.> > I> > am remembering the fight I had in me and it's been beaten down to a> > pulp in recent decade of my life. I fell way off the grid. Lost jobs> > and so forth. So it's a different scale than most here, who still> > have> > income, jobs.> >> >> >> > In the recovery community groups I go to, there is a lot of talk> > about> > anger being a sign of too much ego and leading up to a drink. I> > think> > it can if you fuse with it and have the anger be the end of the> > story.> > I also notice that in general the men in the program experience> > anger> >

differently than women. For some women (myself included), it's very> > empowering to allow for anger. Unfortunately, these nuances aren't> > elaborated upon in meetings and so anger gets lumped into the very> > unbecoming, something you really want to get rid of NOW category...a> > sign you're not working a spiritual healthy program, praying enough,> > helping others enough..blah blah...part of the seven deadly sins> > crap.Sorry I'm so whiny about twelve steps. The larger point is I> > like> > my anger in terms of the I give a hoot about my life feeling that is> > coming back for me today. And I'm also fed up with giving others so> > much power to decide what it is safe or cool to feel or not feel.> > Fed> > up with buying into the thought not enough.> >> >> >> >> > I like the idea of

having the anger speak to me...thanks for that.> >> >> >> > terry> >> >> >> >> > >> > To: <ACT_for_the_Public >> > Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 9:19 AM> > Subject: Re: Never Enough> >> >> >> > Hi Terry,> >> > I am sorry to hear that you have been feeling so sad and angry of> > late> > and that you feel today that your life is not as full as it once> > was.> >> > At least today you are acknowledging you are angry and sad and> > hopefully you will be able to find a way to defuse from

the thoughts> > that created it and still work toward your valued path.> >> > Interestingly I never looked at anger in differing froms, I always> > saw> > anger as just that. It was what lead to the anger that I saw as the> > differering variable, which was the one to watch out for and be> > mindful of.> >> > Maybe you will have a window of time today Terry to sit with your> > sadness and anger and give it time to speak to you so that you can> > mindfully establish what is truly leading you to feeling this> > way(thoughts)about your life lately and hopefully start defusing> > from> > it.> >> > With loving kindness> > Jo> >> > > > > >> > > > I just checked the headlines for the Olympics and read: "Phelps> > > > Suffers Stinging Loss" Is that what's meant in part by

this> > > > "negativity bias"?> > > > Gee, whatever it is, I noticed my stomach tightened reading> > > > it...talk about "never good enough" media messaging. Pretty sad.> > > >> > > >> > > > terry> > > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > >

August 3, 2012

Thank you for your kind words, Terry, you know, if you look at addictions functionally and not on the outer form - I don't find there's much difference between them. I don't have substance addictions, but boy do I have millions of other ones. Work addiction, checking e-mail, trying to look good, isolation... just to name a few. That being said, I know full well from my own experience and from the experience of other people, how extremely hard it is to brake free from an addiction. I kind of think it's better to focus on the emotional and mental process of braking free from it, than to focus on the "yes, I was out of my addiction for one day". Yes, it's fine to celebrate that, don't get me wrong, and I agree it's usually smart to have short term goals like that, but long term - I've found that it's the inner work that makes the difference. It usually takes about a year for me to notice any changes in my behavior if I look through those eyes.-I'm more calm - I can sit still longer periods of time and just watch people. -I can sometimes look at people and I find them lovely - they all have different shapes and forms - the human body is an extraordinary hull. -I realize that it's the emotional and mental work (acceptance, defusion, feeling emotions, letting them out), that's the main thing, not thinking my way out of situations or trying to achieve my goals fast- in a frantic way. Small, small improvements that are sometimes hard to notice for me. Terry, do you know what I mean? Yes- it takes an enormous amount of work and the steps are small - but that's still way better than to go backwards fast. Warm greetings,Henrik There is something so amazingly awesome that I'm continuing to noticethat you Henrik just replied as a 'regular guy' and not really at allinvested in this recovery business. I realize these times comeinfrequently so forgive me for indulging your comments.It's a really, really noisy place this: "get sober now and here's how"stuff. I have a ten year history of this story, back andforth...different versions.I really am ready and want to lay it down and stop fighting and justreally listen to my intuitive voice.And so that's where I am and I just wanted to share that with a bunch ofyou all.You know, this sort of reminds me a bit of what Randy said recently inone of his lovely posts, about how he looks and listens closely forvalues in the little interesting things that fly by..in terms ofanything..and then records that . (Something like that..sorry formisquoting you..don't' have your post in front of me). Best to all,terryTo: "ACT_for_the_Public "<ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Thursday, August 2, 2012 1:12 PMSubject: Re: Re: Never EnoughThat average BTW of total people is probably a bit too high...but youget the idea..it really varies.To: "ACT_for_the_Public "<ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Thursday, August 2, 2012 1:03 PMSubject: Re: Re: Never EnoughHenrik,Thank you so much for your very kind words. I agree it's very good tolet whatever is there just bubble up. It still is..and this isThursday..four days later!I just can't tell you how refreshing this response is for me. I don'tusually come upon folks who know so little of the AA culture, folks whoeither are "pro" or "con" or seem to have some opinion, some axe togrind, some sort of point to make.I miss that sort of objective distance.Just to set the record straight...you can say ANY damn thing in AA andthey can't kick you out. For 3-5 minutes (if you get called on or if youjust jump in or whatever..that's another story..how the turn-takinggoes), the floor is yours. There is no need to ask for "permission" orget feedback. Permission is implicitly granted when you identifyyourself as an alcoholic and then some meetings use a timer and you getto just let it all hang out.. There is no cross-talk, so it's not like atherapy group. It's just a bunch of mini-speeches for lack of a betterdescription. And the meetings are pretty big in my area, so yousometimes don't get a chance to share at all since they're just an hourand lots of other stuff like praying and reciting verses from the Bookand business ($ issues) are all dealt with. So more like 45-50 minutesfor the average of 20-50 people to share.That said, I really love the essence of what you are saying here aboutjust going slow and reading my company and having compassion for wherethey may be as well. I'll address more of this later.With warm regards,terryTo: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 5:05 PMSubject: Re: Re: Never EnoughHi Terry,I can try:adjusting to the context:1. If I'm upset about X (like people not being respected or somethingelse), and I talk in a confrontational way about it to people who may bepartly responsible for that - I don't "take in" or "see" what they'recoming from. I want the talk to be in the service of setting limits andexpressing my view and at the same time not making enemies or losingfriends. If I try and change perspective before I talk though: how mustit be for them - I where them - if I had their responsibilities andtheir limitations (everybody has limitations) - how would I view thesituation?Then I would possibly soften my voice, express my concern to them andlisten for solutions. Maybe chip in positive reinforcement if some ofthe solutions seemed good, and maybe suggesting some solutions myselfafter a while... I find this very difficult - I must tell you!2. Like if I where at an AA meeting (I've never been to one, but I'llpretend) - Maybe these women and men have never had the practice oropportunity to express anger - ever... Maybe they where physically orverbally abused when they got mad? With that in mind - I then couldperhaps frame my anger very carefully during an AA meeting: Like: "Youknow, I'm not angry at any of you - I don't want you to rescue me orhold my hand - I just need to say theses things. I may sound angry whenI say them - but that's just old stuff. I'm not angry at any of you -it's just my stuff, but I feel safe here and I would love to be able tobe genuine with you. Would that be OK for you? Please let me know if Ishould stop - I'd be grateful if you tell me to stop - if you think Ishould, but it would be so helpful for me if I could speak freely for afew minutes without having to watch my tone of voice just this time."You know... making them safe assuming that anger in other people scarethe c-ap out of them. Asking for permission first is usually the magictrick. This will also connect with them. If they allow you to speakfreely while having the possibility to say no, they will themselves getthat they can do the same. It will create a good support group climatein the long run.I think you should be so happy that you can finally express your anger.Even in baby steps.Thanks,Henrik> > > > > Hi Henrik,> > > > > Your chipping is always welcome! You are a warm voice here, popping in> now and again. Yes, I try too hard to keep everything balanced and> perfect! I think that's why I smile when Steve says things like: "Oh,> excuse me for being human". And I like when he speaks of> self-empowerment vs.self esteem. That feels valuable.> > > > > > Let's see...You know, I don't really know if I've repressed anger, and> I'm not really sure it's even "anger" per se I'm even speaking to in> this thread. This may sound splitting hairs, but I'm finding it> important to be more accurate in how I'm describing my process because> I> am humbled by what happens when I'm not.> > > > > > But I guess that's a good enough word to use for now..> > > > > I'm not sure I understand what you're saying in the second half of> your> post about having the expression fit the person in front of me. It> sounds important. Are you talking about adjusting to the context? Can> you maybe give an example?> > > > > thanks so much,> > terry> > > > To: "ACT_for_the_Public "> <ACT_for_the_Public >;> <ACT_for_the_Public >> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 1:54 PM> Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough> > > > Just chipping in, from my maybe "male" point of view. I think it's> great> that you just start getting angry, if you've repressed that and gone> the> opposite way for very long. If you're too intent on exactly how you're> going to express it in the beginning it might perhaps stop this> important process. Once you have the anger : I really mean setting> reasonable limits - then the next step could perhaps be moderating> your> expression to fit the person in front of you. I think as I've grown,> I've not been very balanced at times, but I couldn't do it any better.> I> have reasoned with myself and friends: better to express yourself in> an> unbalanced way in the beginning than to keep quiet and not being able> to> really slip out of the ancient pattern of submissiveness.> > > > > My two cents,> > > > > Warmly,> > Henrik> > > On 30 jul 2012 20:22 "Theresa Linder" > wrote:> > >> >> >> >> > Hey ,> >> >> >> >> >> > I am still learning how to navigate the 12-step scene. It's very> > tricky> > for me. Layered emotions like anger, fear, regret, hurt..they're so> > nuanced that a huge program isn't going to be able to address this> > stuff> > very effectively for every single addict. I'm just glad to notice> > even> > that. Thanks to my ability to defuse and stay with values, I keep> > going> > and find good in a few meetings here and there. But I really need to> > remember to hold lightly and remember why I'm going. It gets noisy> > very> > fast in those rooms.> >> >> >> >> >> > Would you mind sharing some about your different path? What works> > for> > you?> >> >> >> >> >> > thanks,> >> >> > terry> >> >> >> >> >> > > > To: <ACT_for_the_Public >> > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 12:09 AM> > Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough> >> >> >> > Hi Terry,> >> >> >> > I agree with you about AA not quite getting female anger. In my> > experience, for many women one of the first things they need to do> > when> > getting sober is learn how to be productive with anger, as you say> > when> > it is about standing up for yourself and building self esteem. I> > think> > a> > lot of the AA approaches are based on a different time and not> > ideally> > suited to many women. I certainly chose a very different path> >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > On 30 July 2012 00:43, Theresa Linder >> > wrote:> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > I don't know what has led to my feeling feisty today but I like> > > it.> > > I> > > am remembering the fight I had in me and it's been beaten down to> > > a> > > pulp in recent decade of my life. I fell way off the grid. Lost> > > jobs> > > and so forth. So it's a different scale than most here, who still> > > have> > > income, jobs.> > >> > >> > >> > > In the recovery community groups I go to, there is a lot of talk> > > about> > > anger being a sign of too much ego and leading up to a drink. I> > > think> > > it can if you fuse with it and have the anger be the end of the> > > story.> > > I also notice that in general the men in the program experience> > > anger> > > differently than women. For some women (myself included), it's> > > very> > > empowering to allow for anger. Unfortunately, these nuances aren't> > > elaborated upon in meetings and so anger gets lumped into the very> > > unbecoming, something you really want to get rid of NOW> > > category...a> > > sign you're not working a spiritual healthy program, praying> > > enough,> > > helping others enough..blah blah...part of the seven deadly sins> > > crap.Sorry I'm so whiny about twelve steps. The larger point is I> > > like> > > my anger in terms of the I give a hoot about my life feeling that> > > is> > > coming back for me today. And I'm also fed up with giving others> > > so> > > much power to decide what it is safe or cool to feel or not feel.> > > Fed> > > up with buying into the thought not enough.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > I like the idea of having the anger speak to me...thanks for that.> > >> > >> > >> > > terry> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > >> > > To: <ACT_for_the_Public >> > > Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 9:19 AM> > > Subject: Re: Never Enough> > >> > >> > >> > > Hi Terry,> > >> > > I am sorry to hear that you have been feeling so sad and angry of> > > late> > > and that you feel today that your life is not as full as it once> > > was.> > >> > > At least today you are acknowledging you are angry and sad and> > > hopefully you will be able to find a way to defuse from the> > > thoughts> > > that created it and still work toward your valued path.> > >> > > Interestingly I never looked at anger in differing froms, I always> > > saw> > > anger as just that. It was what lead to the anger that I saw as> > > the> > > differering variable, which was the one to watch out for and be> > > mindful of.> > >> > > Maybe you will have a window of time today Terry to sit with your> > > sadness and anger and give it time to speak to you so that you can> > > mindfully establish what is truly leading you to feeling this> > > way(thoughts)about your life lately and hopefully start defusing> > > from> > > it.> > >> > > With loving kindness> > > Jo> > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > I just checked the headlines for the Olympics and read:> > > > > "Phelps> > > > > Suffers Stinging Loss" Is that what's meant in part by this> > > > > "negativity bias"?> > > > > Gee, whatever it is, I noticed my stomach tightened reading> > > > > it...talk about "never good enough" media messaging. Pretty> > > > > sad.> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > terry> > > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > >

August 3, 2012

Dear Henrik,Thank you so much for your friendship. Yes, each little step makes such a difference and we do tend to discount that too readily. Like and Steve often say in one form or another, where-ever you are now, start. Move. However small it seems, do it. One thing builds on another. I must admit my friend i am a bit overwhelmed by what you are saying here..it feels very important once again, and yet it feels like you are saying so many different things I almost want to start a new thread for the many thoughts you're entertaining here....Yes, it does seem that addictions all are about avoidance, but that said, some truly take on a life of their

own..financially, health wise, legally, etc. And the twelve-step program?! Sheez!! That's a book..really a fascinating sub-culture, a fantasy for a Sociologist... Gee, I wish everyone here could be a fly on the wall and just go to a dozen or so closed meetings. And I mean CLOSED. As in 12 and 12, Big Book, Discussion Groups. I really wish I could hold your hand and walk into the meeting. And have you listen for yourself and see what you see and hear what you hear. And then sit with me afterward and tell me honestly what you think. That's sort of my fantasy.warm regards,terry To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public >; ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Friday, August 3, 2012 1:44 AM Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough/Leaning into Values

Thank you for your kind words, Terry, you know, if you look at addictions functionally and not on the outer form - I don't find there's much difference between them. I don't have substance addictions, but boy do I have millions of other ones. Work addiction, checking e-mail, trying to look good, isolation... just to name a few. That being said, I know full well from my own experience and from the experience of other people, how extremely hard it is to brake free from an addiction. I kind of think it's better to focus on the emotional and mental process of braking free from it, than to focus on the "yes, I was out of my addiction for one day". Yes, it's fine to celebrate that, don't get me wrong, and I agree it's usually smart to have short term goals like that, but long term - I've found that it's the inner work that makes the difference. It usually takes about a year for me to notice any changes

in my behavior if I look through those eyes.-I'm more calm - I can sit still longer periods of time and just watch people. -I can sometimes look at people and I find them lovely - they all have different shapes and forms - the human body is an extraordinary hull. -I realize that it's the emotional and mental work (acceptance, defusion, feeling emotions, letting them out), that's the main thing, not thinking my way out of situations or trying to achieve my goals fast- in a frantic way. Small, small improvements that are sometimes hard to notice for me. Terry, do you know what I mean? Yes- it takes an enormous amount of work and the steps are small - but that's still way better than to go backwards fast. Warm greetings,Henrik There is something so amazingly awesome that I'm continuing to noticethat you Henrik just replied as a 'regular guy' and not really at allinvested in this recovery business. I realize these times comeinfrequently so forgive me for indulging your comments.It's a really, really noisy place this: "get sober now and here's how"stuff. I have a ten year history of this story, back andforth...different versions.I really am ready and want to lay it down and stop fighting and justreally listen to my intuitive voice.And so that's where I am and I just wanted to share that with a bunch ofyou all.You know, this sort of reminds me a bit of what Randy said recently inone of his

lovely posts, about how he looks and listens closely forvalues in the little interesting things that fly by..in terms ofanything..and then records that . (Something like that..sorry formisquoting you..don't' have your post in front of me). Best to all,terryTo: "ACT_for_the_Public "<ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Thursday, August 2, 2012 1:12 PMSubject: Re: Re: Never EnoughThat average BTW of total people is probably a bit too high...but youget the idea..it really varies.To: "ACT_for_the_Public "<ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Thursday, August 2, 2012 1:03 PMSubject: Re: Re: Never EnoughHenrik,Thank you so much for your very kind words. I agree it's very good tolet whatever is there just bubble up. It still is..and this isThursday..four days later!I just can't tell you how refreshing this response is for me. I don'tusually come upon folks who know so little of the AA culture, folks whoeither are "pro" or "con" or seem to have some opinion, some axe togrind, some sort of point to make.I miss that sort

of objective distance.Just to set the record straight...you can say ANY damn thing in AA andthey can't kick you out. For 3-5 minutes (if you get called on or if youjust jump in or whatever..that's another story..how the turn-takinggoes), the floor is yours. There is no need to ask for "permission" orget feedback. Permission is implicitly granted when you identifyyourself as an alcoholic and then some meetings use a timer and you getto just let it all hang out.. There is no cross-talk, so it's not like atherapy group. It's just a bunch of mini-speeches for lack of a betterdescription. And the meetings are pretty big in my area, so yousometimes don't get a chance to share at all since they're just an hourand lots of other stuff like praying and reciting verses from the Bookand business ($ issues) are all dealt with. So more like 45-50 minutesfor the average of 20-50 people to

share.That said, I really love the essence of what you are saying here aboutjust going slow and reading my company and having compassion for wherethey may be as well. I'll address more of this later.With warm regards,terryTo: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 5:05 PMSubject: Re: Re: Never EnoughHi Terry,I can try:adjusting to the context:1. If I'm upset about X (like people not being respected or somethingelse), and I talk in a confrontational way about it to people who may

bepartly responsible for that - I don't "take in" or "see" what they'recoming from. I want the talk to be in the service of setting limits andexpressing my view and at the same time not making enemies or losingfriends. If I try and change perspective before I talk though: how mustit be for them - I where them - if I had their responsibilities andtheir limitations (everybody has limitations) - how would I view thesituation?Then I would possibly soften my voice, express my concern to them andlisten for solutions. Maybe chip in positive reinforcement if some ofthe solutions seemed good, and maybe suggesting some solutions myselfafter a while... I find this very difficult - I must tell you!2. Like if I where at an AA meeting (I've never been to one, but I'llpretend) - Maybe these women and men have never had the practice oropportunity to express anger - ever...

Maybe they where physically orverbally abused when they got mad? With that in mind - I then couldperhaps frame my anger very carefully during an AA meeting: Like: "Youknow, I'm not angry at any of you - I don't want you to rescue me orhold my hand - I just need to say theses things. I may sound angry whenI say them - but that's just old stuff. I'm not angry at any of you -it's just my stuff, but I feel safe here and I would love to be able tobe genuine with you. Would that be OK for you? Please let me know if Ishould stop - I'd be grateful if you tell me to stop - if you think Ishould, but it would be so helpful for me if I could speak freely for afew minutes without having to watch my tone of voice just this time."You know... making them safe assuming that anger in other people scarethe c-ap out of them. Asking for permission first is usually the magictrick. This will also connect with

them. If they allow you to speakfreely while having the possibility to say no, they will themselves getthat they can do the same. It will create a good support group climatein the long run.I think you should be so happy that you can finally express your anger.Even in baby steps.Thanks,Henrik> > > > > Hi Henrik,> > > > > Your chipping is always welcome! You are a warm voice here, popping in> now and again. Yes, I try too hard to keep everything balanced and> perfect! I think that's why I smile when Steve says things like: "Oh,> excuse me for being human". And I like when he speaks

of> self-empowerment vs.self esteem. That feels valuable.> > > > > > Let's see...You know, I don't really know if I've repressed anger, and> I'm not really sure it's even "anger" per se I'm even speaking to in> this thread. This may sound splitting hairs, but I'm finding it> important to be more accurate in how I'm describing my process because> I> am humbled by what happens when I'm not.> > > > > > But I guess that's a good enough word to use for now..> > > > > I'm not sure I understand what you're saying in the second half of> your> post about having the expression fit the person in front of me. It> sounds important. Are you talking about adjusting to the context? Can> you maybe give an example?> > > > > thanks so much,>

> terry> > > > To: "ACT_for_the_Public "> <ACT_for_the_Public >;> <ACT_for_the_Public >> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 1:54 PM> Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough> > > > Just chipping in, from my maybe "male" point of view. I think it's> great> that you just start getting angry, if you've repressed that and gone> the> opposite way for very long. If you're too intent on exactly how you're> going to express it in the beginning it might perhaps stop this>

important process. Once you have the anger : I really mean setting> reasonable limits - then the next step could perhaps be moderating> your> expression to fit the person in front of you. I think as I've grown,> I've not been very balanced at times, but I couldn't do it any better.> I> have reasoned with myself and friends: better to express yourself in> an> unbalanced way in the beginning than to keep quiet and not being able> to> really slip out of the ancient pattern of submissiveness.> > > > > My two cents,> > > > > Warmly,> > Henrik> > > On 30 jul 2012 20:22 "Theresa Linder" > wrote:> > >>

>> >> >> > Hey ,> >> >> >> >> >> > I am still learning how to navigate the 12-step scene. It's very> > tricky> > for me. Layered emotions like anger, fear, regret, hurt..they're so> > nuanced that a huge program isn't going to be able to address this> > stuff> > very effectively for every single addict. I'm just glad to notice> > even> > that. Thanks to my ability to defuse and stay with values, I keep> > going> > and find good in a few meetings here and there. But I really need to> > remember to hold lightly and remember why I'm going. It gets noisy> > very> > fast in those rooms.> >> >> >> >> >> > Would you mind sharing some about your different path? What works> >

for> > you?> >> >> >> >> >> > thanks,> >> >> > terry> >> >> >> >> >> > > > To: <ACT_for_the_Public >> > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 12:09 AM> > Subject: Re: Re: Never Enough> >> >> >> > Hi Terry,> >> >> >> > I agree with you about AA not quite getting female anger. In my> > experience, for many women one of the first things they need to do> >

when> > getting sober is learn how to be productive with anger, as you say> > when> > it is about standing up for yourself and building self esteem. I> > think> > a> > lot of the AA approaches are based on a different time and not> > ideally> > suited to many women. I certainly chose a very different path> >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > On 30 July 2012 00:43, Theresa Linder >> > wrote:> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > I don't know what has led to my feeling feisty today but I like> > > it.> > > I> > > am remembering the fight I had in me and it's been beaten down to> >

> a> > > pulp in recent decade of my life. I fell way off the grid. Lost> > > jobs> > > and so forth. So it's a different scale than most here, who still> > > have> > > income, jobs.> > >> > >> > >> > > In the recovery community groups I go to, there is a lot of talk> > > about> > > anger being a sign of too much ego and leading up to a drink. I> > > think> > > it can if you fuse with it and have the anger be the end of the> > > story.> > > I also notice that in general the men in the program experience> > > anger> > > differently than women. For some women (myself included), it's> > > very> > > empowering to allow for anger. Unfortunately, these nuances aren't> > > elaborated upon in meetings

and so anger gets lumped into the very> > > unbecoming, something you really want to get rid of NOW> > > category...a> > > sign you're not working a spiritual healthy program, praying> > > enough,> > > helping others enough..blah blah...part of the seven deadly sins> > > crap.Sorry I'm so whiny about twelve steps. The larger point is I> > > like> > > my anger in terms of the I give a hoot about my life feeling that> > > is> > > coming back for me today. And I'm also fed up with giving others> > > so> > > much power to decide what it is safe or cool to feel or not feel.> > > Fed> > > up with buying into the thought not enough.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > I like the idea of having the anger speak to me...thanks for

that.> > >> > >> > >> > > terry> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > >> > > To: <ACT_for_the_Public >> > > Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 9:19 AM> > > Subject: Re: Never Enough> > >> > >> > >> > > Hi Terry,> > >> > > I am sorry to hear that you have been feeling so sad and angry of> > > late> > > and that you feel today that your life is not as full as it once> > > was.> > >> > > At least today you are acknowledging you are angry and sad

and> > > hopefully you will be able to find a way to defuse from the> > > thoughts> > > that created it and still work toward your valued path.> > >> > > Interestingly I never looked at anger in differing froms, I always> > > saw> > > anger as just that. It was what lead to the anger that I saw as> > > the> > > differering variable, which was the one to watch out for and be> > > mindful of.> > >> > > Maybe you will have a window of time today Terry to sit with your> > > sadness and anger and give it time to speak to you so that you can> > > mindfully establish what is truly leading you to feeling this> > > way(thoughts)about your life lately and hopefully start defusing> > > from> > > it.> > >> > > With loving

kindness> > > Jo> > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > I just checked the headlines for the Olympics and read:> > > > > "Phelps> > > > > Suffers Stinging Loss" Is that what's meant in part by this> > > > > "negativity bias"?> > > > > Gee, whatever it is, I noticed my stomach tightened reading> > > > > it...talk about "never good enough" media messaging. Pretty> > > > > sad.> > > > >> > >

> >> > > > > terry> > > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > >

August 3, 2012

Oh dear, left off an important part here...Also, I really do get your own suffering and I am very grateful for you sharing it so openly. I used to go into the hospital I worked at on the weekends to "correct and edit" my chart notes and make phone calls and do a bunch of stuff I didn't do..to keep one step ahead..and it was never never, ENOUGH as you imply here...as this thread implies here by the title i gave it. And that felt as painful as anything else. So you're right, Henrik..it is about function! In the end, suffering is suffering. That's what I love about ACT. We all get that. It's not so much about the story but more about the felt experience of having

been taken complete hostage by your mind and the awakening that happens around that realization and then the compassionate path we forge forward with that very realization. wishes and hugs for a peaceful evening,terry To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Friday, August 3, 2012 7:30 PM Subject: Re: Re:

Never Enough/Leaning into Values