Re: Anything to help this slow descent

[Guest guest]

Oh Hakon, I really feel for you at the moment, and can completely relate and

understand what you are going through presently. When I first started ACT I

took a real dip, in fact I felt worse not better. I was so caught up in trying

to fix me and make all the feelings and thoughts I had go away. It took me a

while to really get to grips with letting that go. I didn't realise at the

start that as long as I was so intent in fixing me and getting rid of feeling

the way I did about me, life etc that I was actually continuing the struggle,

the fight and the pain that goes with it.

The early exercises in Get out of your Mind and into Your life, are there to

help you become aware of how much you have struggled, how many things you have

done to fix things to see long term they were ineffective and to help you become

aware that fighting with and struggling to fix your depression, anxiety,

phobias, health etc, does not actually help you long term. But instead to look

at the possibility that what if you were to just stop, stop fighting, stop

struggling and instead accept that your feeling this way and that you think the

way you do and try to accept these feelings and thoughts can exist but that they

don't dictate who you are, and that you can walk beside these thoughts and

feelings and still lead a valued life.

The mindfulness exercises wake you up to what your mind does, how it tricks you,

thats chapter 4 and teaches you to see things as they are, just thoughts and to

accept they exist and are there but that they are only a small part of you. In

chapter 5 the exercises help you with diffusion and help you to let go of these

thoughts and feelings and help you to see which ones your really buying into.

Just because you buy into them doesn't mean you don't do the diffusion on them

either no matter how strongly you argue the point in your mind that its fact.

You keep doing them and eventually they weaken.

Hakon it took me a while to realise that letting go of the struggle and fight

was necessary to move forward, I had to be convinced. I did the exercise

relating to this to the extreme to see what 16 years of fighting and struggling

had achieved for me, and the answer was absolutely nothing...I was not better

than were I was, in fact I was worse. I remember saying to my therapist, why

did you get me to do this exercise, its made me feel so much worse. Whats the

point of trying, why bother, may as well give up now. He replied...exactly...I

was stunned even at that point I did not get it. Why woud he do that to me. I

was so angry with him and said you have made me feel deliberately worse and now

I feel more suicidal than ever, why would you do that to someone feeling so

vunerable already. I hated him for it. The answer was at the end of the day to

wake up as see struggling and fighting to fix me does not work. You have to let

that plan in you mind go, sooner the better.

When I read you posts Hakon I can tell your still in the struggling and fighting

to fix things, and I really feel your pain. I wonder if you can just for today,

not fight, not struggle and not look try to fix yourself and see how your day

goes. Thats what I did. One day at a time till eventually I realised day after

day, month after month that struggling and fighting didn't work I was no worse

for letting go of the fight to fix me and that was a big fear of mine, that if I

didn't fight to fix me, what would happen, I surely would decline into

insanity....I didn't and that was my first wake up to what ACT could do.

Dont rush through the books to get fixed, thats not what this is about, give

yourself the time to allow the information in the books to sink in. Sit with

the exercises, take it nice and slowly. You have fought so hard and worked so

intensively up to now, slow it down, pace yourself, be kind to yourself this

time and just give yourself a little time to get your head around this new way

of approaching your thoughts, feelings, fears, depression, anxiety etc.

You will have moments of panic, I did too, but I never gave up on the process

and I am now getting to grips with what it can achieve for me and my approach to

living.

I really do feel your pain and distress Hakon and I want to reassure you and

encourage you to trust the ACT process, your on a little journey right now and

you have hit the point where you have a choice to make, continue the fight and

struggle to fix you, or let go of it and see what happens. It's little step of

faith in a way, you are being asked to trust what the ACT books and therapists

are saying but your also being asked to trust yourself too....you wont let

yourself down....Try it for a day and then another day, work on a moment by

moment basis.

My therapist said to me at the time " you have been fighting and stuggling for 16

years now to fix you and you realise that its been ineffective, how would you

like to try not struggling and fighting for a wee change and see what that feels

like. Would you be willing to give up the fight and struggle for a day " ....I

said yes....Then thats all he asked, one day at a time.

Hakon its up to you to ask yourself if you are ready to let go of this struggle,

if I could I would do it for you , but only you can take that step for

yourself...this is about having a little faith in yourself, your stronger than

you realise, we all are.

I haven't done a Metta Bhavana Meditation for a little while, as I have been

concentrating on mediation for pain, but today I think you could do with some

loving kindness and I feel frustrated I cannot do more for you at this time, so

it would be good for me too. I will have you in mind when it comes to Meta for

a friend. " May you be well. May you be happy. May you be free from suffering "

Hakon.

With loving kindness

Jo

>

>

> I'm reading Get out of your mind and Happiness Trap, and I do the exercises,

but I am so afraid. I fall into helplessness. I feel like I can do nothing to

better myself. These thoughts are so ingrained. I keep going to the psychiatric

intensive care, and they don't know what to do. I get so confused. It feels so

big. I call my mother, and she doesn't know what to say. I surf the internet.

All these things I know don't work. I feel like a kid in a grown up body. Not

constructive at all.

>

[Guest guest]

Hey man, no one can help you.Look in the mirror. Who do you see?Meet your "new" therapist.Can you, do you trust him?If not, explain why not. If you do, explain why you do.It's a tricky question for a tricky mind.Best regards,Detlef>> > I'm reading Get out of your mind and Happiness Trap, and I do the exercises, but I am so afraid. I fall into helplessness. I feel like I can do nothing to better myself. These thoughts are so ingrained. I keep going to the psychiatric intensive care, and they don't know what to do. I get so confused. It feels so big. I call my mother, and she doesn't know what to say. I surf the internet. All these things I know don't work. I feel like a kid in a grown up body. Not constructive at all.>

[Guest guest]

Hi Haakon I've been having a lot of trouble recently with emotion and feelings. My mind takes one look at these feelings, and screams: "THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. NOW". And I have. I've had appointments with two private therapists, I've been to see my GP, my work's occupational health doctor, I had an appointment with a psychiatrist this morning, a disability consultant through my Union, I've told my parents who have rushed to my aid, I've been on this forum, I'm reading three separate books that promise to save me; I've...... Can you see this in your post

too? "There's something wrong, do something about it". And you've dutifully visited psychiatric experts, you call you mum, you check the 'net, you come on this forum... Much like me. But Haakon, I'm just exhausted. And in this whirlwind of activity and energy, what exactly have I achieved? The square root of fuck all, that's what. But at a cost, because I've given this 'problem' all the attention that it feeds off. I don't know about you Haakon, but this afternoon (bloody hell, it's already 2.15pm, where's that gone???), I'm going to get off this bloody forum, get away from all my books, get away from all those appointment cards, and go to the park, with my trusty travel beaker of coffee, and just watch the world go by. Might stop off at the library on the way home, and get me a dog-eared trashy

thriller. I'll probably be just as miserable, but at least I'll be taking part in life, rather than having Father Time just drag me alongside it. Good luck, and thanks for helping me work this all out. x To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent:

Monday, 30 July 2012, 10:16 Subject: Anything to help this slow descent

I'm reading Get out of your mind and Happiness Trap, and I do the exercises, but I am so afraid. I fall into helplessness. I feel like I can do nothing to better myself. These thoughts are so ingrained. I keep going to the psychiatric intensive care, and they don't know what to do. I get so confused. It feels so big. I call my mother, and she doesn't know what to say. I surf the internet. All these things I know don't work. I feel like a kid in a grown up body. Not constructive at all.

[Guest guest]

Hi Haaykon,

I hope you don't think this isn't worth trying it. Are you getting any exercise

at all? I think one of the most unfortunate things about depression/mood

disorders/anxiety is that walking will help so much, AND if you are depressed

the last thing you are interested in is a walk.

I have been walking .5 mile (see not much at all) (once around a small park near

my house) and it has helped a lot. I started to have a problem with my feet,

numbness and tingling, after a bunch of tests and x-rays, it was discovered that

my old shoes didn't fit anymore! (As we age, things loosen up and our feet

spread out, flatten a bit)They felt ok, but they were holding the bones (like

the knuckles in our hands) much too tightly.

What finally got me going was guilt over my dogs, and my committment to them to

care for them forever. (I will care for others but not myself) We play a lot

and spend time together, but they really need to walk, like me, they are getting

old and if you don't use your body the joints really will age much much more

quickly.

Best wishes, keep reaching out for help.

I really had to persevere at my Psych Urgent Care, [going back, waiting in line,

going back again and again, asking for a doctor, asking for a therapist, finding

out about groups, etc.] And, ultimately, walking and mindfulness exercises are

the most significant things, and simple things that I have done --and are what's

pulling me out of the pit.

Wanda in Albuquerque

PS I just watched an interview by Bill Moyers on YouTube with Pema Chödrön.

When asked what she felt the benefit of meditating was, she said something

about, after meditating, there was more room in your mind. That made sense to

me, from my experiences of a paralyzed frozen mind full of fear, anger, anxiety,

etc. To be able to move all that aside a bit and free up some space in my mind,

to be able to create a life worth living.

[Guest guest]

, your post is great and provides the most perfect piece of advice!

Wanda in albuquerque

[Guest guest]

This is really interesting. I have been trying to take your advice and give up fighting today. The problem is I just feel so bad. It seems like human emotion to want change when feeling so bored, anxious, depressed, etc. I feel like this can't be the way I'm supposed to be. I believe it's worked for others. It's just so counter-intuitive to believe it will work for me. The funny thing is, I don't feel like I'm a bad person. But I'm not living the life I want to live because of anxiety and ennui.I've been fighting for a long time, too. And I go from one theory to another as to what would help. I go to different therapists and support groups looking for anything that will make me feel OK for a little while. Not wishing things were different will be a hard habit to break, I think. But worth a try, certainly.Bruce Oh Hakon, I really feel for you at the moment, and can completely relate and understand what you are going through presently. When I first started ACT I took a real dip, in fact I felt worse not better. I was so caught up in trying to fix me and make all the feelings and thoughts I had go away. It took me a while to really get to grips with letting that go. I didn't realise at the start that as long as I was so intent in fixing me and getting rid of feeling the way I did about me, life etc that I was actually continuing the struggle, the fight and the pain that goes with it. The early exercises in Get out of your Mind and into Your life, are there to help you become aware of how much you have struggled, how many things you have done to fix things to see long term they were ineffective and to help you become aware that fighting with and struggling to fix your depression, anxiety, phobias, health etc, does not actually help you long term. But instead to look at the possibility that what if you were to just stop, stop fighting, stop struggling and instead accept that your feeling this way and that you think the way you do and try to accept these feelings and thoughts can exist but that they don't dictate who you are, and that you can walk beside these thoughts and feelings and still lead a valued life. The mindfulness exercises wake you up to what your mind does, how it tricks you, thats chapter 4 and teaches you to see things as they are, just thoughts and to accept they exist and are there but that they are only a small part of you. In chapter 5 the exercises help you with diffusion and help you to let go of these thoughts and feelings and help you to see which ones your really buying into. Just because you buy into them doesn't mean you don't do the diffusion on them either no matter how strongly you argue the point in your mind that its fact. You keep doing them and eventually they weaken. Hakon it took me a while to realise that letting go of the struggle and fight was necessary to move forward, I had to be convinced. I did the exercise relating to this to the extreme to see what 16 years of fighting and struggling had achieved for me, and the answer was absolutely nothing...I was not better than were I was, in fact I was worse. I remember saying to my therapist, why did you get me to do this exercise, its made me feel so much worse. Whats the point of trying, why bother, may as well give up now. He replied...exactly...I was stunned even at that point I did not get it. Why woud he do that to me. I was so angry with him and said you have made me feel deliberately worse and now I feel more suicidal than ever, why would you do that to someone feeling so vunerable already. I hated him for it. The answer was at the end of the day to wake up as see struggling and fighting to fix me does not work. You have to let that plan in you mind go, sooner the better. When I read you posts Hakon I can tell your still in the struggling and fighting to fix things, and I really feel your pain. I wonder if you can just for today, not fight, not struggle and not look try to fix yourself and see how your day goes. Thats what I did. One day at a time till eventually I realised day after day, month after month that struggling and fighting didn't work I was no worse for letting go of the fight to fix me and that was a big fear of mine, that if I didn't fight to fix me, what would happen, I surely would decline into insanity....I didn't and that was my first wake up to what ACT could do. Dont rush through the books to get fixed, thats not what this is about, give yourself the time to allow the information in the books to sink in. Sit with the exercises, take it nice and slowly. You have fought so hard and worked so intensively up to now, slow it down, pace yourself, be kind to yourself this time and just give yourself a little time to get your head around this new way of approaching your thoughts, feelings, fears, depression, anxiety etc. You will have moments of panic, I did too, but I never gave up on the process and I am now getting to grips with what it can achieve for me and my approach to living. I really do feel your pain and distress Hakon and I want to reassure you and encourage you to trust the ACT process, your on a little journey right now and you have hit the point where you have a choice to make, continue the fight and struggle to fix you, or let go of it and see what happens. It's little step of faith in a way, you are being asked to trust what the ACT books and therapists are saying but your also being asked to trust yourself too....you wont let yourself down....Try it for a day and then another day, work on a moment by moment basis. My therapist said to me at the time "you have been fighting and stuggling for 16 years now to fix you and you realise that its been ineffective, how would you like to try not struggling and fighting for a wee change and see what that feels like. Would you be willing to give up the fight and struggle for a day"....I said yes....Then thats all he asked, one day at a time. Hakon its up to you to ask yourself if you are ready to let go of this struggle, if I could I would do it for you , but only you can take that step for yourself...this is about having a little faith in yourself, your stronger than you realise, we all are. I haven't done a Metta Bhavana Meditation for a little while, as I have been concentrating on mediation for pain, but today I think you could do with some loving kindness and I feel frustrated I cannot do more for you at this time, so it would be good for me too. I will have you in mind when it comes to Meta for a friend. "May you be well. May you be happy. May you be free from suffering" Hakon. With loving kindness Jo > > > I'm reading Get out of your mind and Happiness Trap, and I do the exercises, but I am so afraid. I fall into helplessness. I feel like I can do nothing to better myself. These thoughts are so ingrained. I keep going to the psychiatric intensive care, and they don't know what to do. I get so confused. It feels so big. I call my mother, and she doesn't know what to say. I surf the internet. All these things I know don't work. I feel like a kid in a grown up body. Not constructive at all. >

[Guest guest]

, I love your post! Sometimes we just have to get out and live!!! Sent from my iPhone

Hi Haakon I've been having a lot of trouble recently with emotion and feelings. My mind takes one look at these feelings, and screams: "THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. NOW". And I have. I've had appointments with two private therapists, I've been to see my GP, my work's occupational health doctor, I had an appointment with a psychiatrist this morning, a disability consultant through my Union, I've told my parents who have rushed to my aid, I've been on this forum, I'm reading three separate books that promise to save me; I've...... Can you see this in your post

too? "There's something wrong, do something about it". And you've dutifully visited psychiatric experts, you call you mum, you check the 'net, you come on this forum... Much like me. But Haakon, I'm just exhausted. And in this whirlwind of activity and energy, what exactly have I achieved? The square root of fuck all, that's what. But at a cost, because I've given this 'problem' all the attention that it feeds off. I don't know about you Haakon, but this afternoon (bloody hell, it's already 2.15pm, where's that gone???), I'm going to get off this bloody forum, get away from all my books, get away from all those appointment cards, and go to the park, with my trusty travel beaker of coffee, and just watch the world go by. Might stop off at the library on the way home, and get me a dog-eared trashy

thriller. I'll probably be just as miserable, but at least I'll be taking part in life, rather than having Father Time just drag me alongside it. Good luck, and thanks for helping me work this all out. x To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent:

Monday, 30 July 2012, 10:16 Subject: Anything to help this slow descent

I'm reading Get out of your mind and Happiness Trap, and I do the exercises, but I am so afraid. I fall into helplessness. I feel like I can do nothing to better myself. These thoughts are so ingrained. I keep going to the psychiatric intensive care, and they don't know what to do. I get so confused. It feels so big. I call my mother, and she doesn't know what to say. I surf the internet. All these things I know don't work. I feel like a kid in a grown up body. Not constructive at all.

[Guest guest]

Bruce, you are absolutely correct in saying the word habit. We get sucked into

the fix and the struggle to find the fix and then it becomes an ingrained habit.

Habits can be difficult to break and it helps when breaking an old habit to

create a new one, a more effective one in its place.

All I did was agree to be willing to stop struggling and fighting to fix me and

instead of that habit I took up the mindfulness exercises, which helped me to

notice my minds discomfort of this change and its resistance too this change and

I used the diffusion exercises to let go of the resistance. What I learned was

that you can still have all these thoughts feelings and emotions but instead of

reacting to finding a fix I just acknowledge them, accepted I would have them,

choose not to buy into them and then let them go. I wasn't going to fight with

these thoughts feelings and emotions anymore, and it had to be done on a moment

by moment, day by day basis. Thinking to far ahead lead to becoming

mindy/mindtrapped again.

There were moments my resistance would get the better of me, I just worked a

little harder, by writing in my journal, writing here to the group, speaking to

my therapist, doing more mindfulness and diffusion and slowly and sublty it

seemed to all help and I could see why it was so important to be aware of our

minds need to fix things, and the mind trap it creates, and the importance of

letting go of my fears about it feeling like I was giving up on me and giving in

to mental insanity. I was then able to see what a trick my mind had been

playing on me for 16 years and I stopped the struggle and the fight.

I have been doing ACT now for a year and half its only been the last 3 months

that I have truly felt the benefits of the effort I put in to the ACT Process.

I had a lot of resistance to tackle and its been hard work...I had a lot of

regret to deal with when I started to wake up to what I had allowed my mind to

do to me, lots of lost years and lost opportunities to get my head around. It

is still very early for me too, still learning and developing my mindfulness,

but I can now see what ACT can do for me and what I can do for me too.

I got right in amongst my struggle, I did a chart specifically looking at my

experience in managing my emotional and physical pain and the short and long

term effects of my choices in treatment/fixes. I also noted the longterm

effects to my quality of life. I did a report on physical pain and emotional

pain too. The reports were long. When I did an exercise on average my reports

would be 5000 to 8000 words and 8 to 12 pages long...I didn't do it by half, as

I was that determind to get it right and myself well, I wanted things fixed once

and for all. In doing what I did I only made it more obvious to my therapist

and eventually to myself how trapped I was in the mind fix. I missed out

nothing, for surely one of my treatments/fixes had to have been effective

longterm.....all those different therapies, all those self help books...well

over 50 books, all the healthy diets and fitness programmes, the doctors, the

specialists the private treatments with physios, oesteopaths etc...not one had

long term truly imporved the quality of my life for the better. I was infact

worse off...I was exhuasted, mentally and physically and financially empty

too...look at where my fight to get well got me....nowhere. So yes by the time

I did these exercises it was very easy for me to see fighting ans struggling was

getting me nowhere and therefore it did seem almost relieving to say yes I am

willing to live a day not struggle and fighting to get well....and ACT helped me

to do that.

Bruce you said " This can't be the way its supposed to be " ....so did I. I mean

surely not, it goes against everything you believe to be right as a human being.

We have to fix things when they are wrong and not working. So this letting go of

the struggle has to be the wrong approach, it just has to be.....or is it?

Thats all mind talk, thank your mind for its opinion but let it go and keep to

your objective to stop fighting and struggling to get fixed. Work with the

mindfulness and diffusion exercises let go of that minds habit to fix everything

and just see where it takes you. Its quite freeing and empowering when it

finally clicks, just persevere with the ACT processes.

I really felt the benefit today of doing the Loving Kindness (Metta Bhavana)

Mediation, I forgot how much I gained from this mediation, so I will do another

tomorrow and I will think of you Bruce when I get to Metta for a friend. " May

you be well. May you be happy. May you be free from suffering "

With loving kindness

Jo

> > >

> > >

> > > I'm reading Get out of your mind and Happiness Trap, and I do the

> > exercises, but I am so afraid. I fall into helplessness. I feel like

> > I can do nothing to better myself. These thoughts are so ingrained.

> > I keep going to the psychiatric intensive care, and they don't know

> > what to do. I get so confused. It feels so big. I call my mother,

> > and she doesn't know what to say. I surf the internet. All these

> > things I know don't work. I feel like a kid in a grown up body. Not

> > constructive at all.

> > >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you, Jo. What kinds of exercises did you do to accept? I feel so agitated

because my life seems properly f*****. I don't know who I am. Enough of that.

Did you do defusion? I can't feel the difference between thinking " I am an

idiot " and " I'm having the thought that I am an idiot " .

It seems like a lot of other people have at least an education and a half-decent

job + the ability to look further than themselves. I look only at myself. This

is probably why I feel so ignorant too.

My mind says: " you can't do defusion every day, because either you do to little

or do too much, and it takes too much time, and it will not work for you " .

Or: " reading will be enough, don't do exercises, they will cause you pain " and

" you will misunderstand and do them wrong " .

Also I skip from exercise to exercise, out of myself and confused and irritated.

Going for cigarettes, going to the toilet, procrastinating.

How do you do it? Decide?

Thank you for your answers, everyone

Håkon

> >

> >

> > I'm reading Get out of your mind and Happiness Trap, and I do the exercises,

but I am so afraid. I fall into helplessness. I feel like I can do nothing to

better myself. These thoughts are so ingrained. I keep going to the psychiatric

intensive care, and they don't know what to do. I get so confused. It feels so

big. I call my mother, and she doesn't know what to say. I surf the internet.

All these things I know don't work. I feel like a kid in a grown up body. Not

constructive at all.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi HÃ¥kon, my two cents...It seems like you have a good grasp on the theory behind defusion and acceptance, even in the midst of confusion. That is a job well done.Just let it be at that, and try in small steps to go about your life and take small microsteps towards something you want to do today. If you can't find anything you want to do, do the thing that is the least bad. As you get going, then use some defusion techniques. I think you're onto something when you say that you either do too little or too much. So try and find some middle ground when you do some defusion techniques and then it will have to suffice. Then you can decide to feel the way you feel and think the way you think. Don't try and change that. And go about doing the thing you where doing. Hope this helps.Henrik Thank you, Jo. What kinds of exercises did you do to accept? I feel soagitated because my life seems properly f*****. I don't know who I am.Enough of that. Did you do defusion? I can't feel the difference betweenthinking "I am an idiot" and "I'm having the thought that I am anidiot".It seems like a lot of other people have at least an education and ahalf-decent job + the ability to look further than themselves. I lookonly at myself. This is probably why I feel so ignorant too.My mind says:"you can't do defusion every day, because either you do tolittle or do too much, and it takes too much time, and it will not workfor you". Or:"reading will be enough, don't do exercises, they willcause you pain" and "you will misunderstand and do them wrong".Also I skip from exercise to exercise, out of myself and confused andirritated. Going for cigarettes, going to the toilet, procrastinating.How do you do it? Decide?Thank you for your answers, everyoneHÃ¥kon> >> >> > I'm reading Get out of your mind and Happiness Trap, and I do the> > exercises, but I am so afraid. I fall into helplessness. I feel like> > I can do nothing to better myself. These thoughts are so ingrained.> > I keep going to the psychiatric intensive care, and they don't know> > what to do. I get so confused. It feels so big. I call my mother,> > and she doesn't know what to say. I surf the internet. All these> > things I know don't work. I feel like a kid in a grown up body. Not> > constructive at all.> >>

[Guest guest]

Hi HÃ¥kon, Have you heard the koan 'what is the sound of one hand clapping?

you don't 'decide' you just do it. (yeah Nike).

Please go do what did yesterday. go sit in the park, anywhere away from

home. Enjoy a nice drink,sit up straight and take deep breathes and people

watch.

Wanda