suicidal thoughts

[Guest guest]

I have been having suicidal thoughts since losing a large amount of money.

Please help. Any ACT techniques I can use? Please help.

[Guest guest]

Hello,

Thanks for reaching out.  I am sorry to hear of your troubles.  Please sit tight - you will likely find invaluable guidance, support, and companionship here.  And, be prepared to develop your patience, persistence, curiosity, and kindness muscles - developing skills consistent with ACT is quite a process. 

Wishing you a sense of peace and values-consistent living.  And, as says, " a lifetime of gentle returns " to practices that help

you keep in mind what is most important.

Jenn

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Block Lerner, PhD

Associate Professor

Dept. of Advanced Studies in Psychology

Kean University

jlerner@...

 

[Guest guest]

I've been there... and I have been "fortunate" (double meaning intended...) with my friends, without whom I probably wouldn't be there anymore...For me at least, the biggest thing was not the loss of money itself, but the shame it triggered in me. Does that ring a bell? (I would have loved to add your name here, would you be willing to give us a name? doesn't have to be your official name, though...).In ACT terms: "having money" is a goal, not a value, are you familiar with this distinction?So one very important way forward for me has been to remind myself of the values that I believed needed that money in order forme being able to express those values.it was very liberating for me to realize (again and again, because it's so easy to forget in our culture) that even at my poorest I still could make gestures of friendship (one of my values)...On a completely different level: I have no clue of how much in danger you are to do the irreparable and definitive. If this danger seems big, please look for professional help,too, in addition to reaching out here - which indeed is a wonderful gesture). Another thing: thinking suicidal thoughts was a way of soothing me, strange as this may sound for some.And precisely because they are soothing on the short term, they became stronger and stronger (and thus scarier and scarier...).So I had to find other ways of soothing me - and yes realizing that I could still "worktowards friendship" was one of the ways Isoothed me;in thought and... more importantlly still on the longer term, in action.I hope you can stay with us (and with people physically closer to you),Maarten

>> I have been having suicidal thoughts since losing a large amount of money. Please help. Any ACT techniques I can use? Please help.>

[Guest guest]

After Maarten's wonderful post...

I have been there too, and am still recovering from it. I don't mean to make it worse for you - as it has been going on for so long for me- but let me explain and clarify: I lost a lot of money several years ago, but I was not totally poor after the loss. I still had an apartment and some money left. But the loss which came very quick hit me like nothing hurt me before I think.

Before I lost the money, I more or less unconsciously used money as a cushion. Money insulated me from having to need people - and the risk of abandonment and also from the very exposed position you're in when you're dependent on keeping a job to pay your bills.

I had to do a lot of emotional work that consisted of talk and talk and talk about the situation I was in and that helped a lot. I cried.

I also had to change my life: Suddenly I had to go to different grocery stores to buy food, I had to take jobs that where not well paid etc... The talking helped and step by step I uncovered that I associated the loss of the money with shame as Maarten also experienced and also with a lot of early fearful memories of not being taken cared of when I was a small kid. The money had taken care of me so to speak and now it was mostly gone.

I've been dealing with the aftermaths of this for a long time, but what I'm working on now is no longer about the loss of money so much. Now it's about me not trusting life, not trusting my friends,not trusting myself. Before the loss, money covered up that distrust. Now it's out in the open. That's ultimately a good thing. Better to know the facts and then work with that, than living a lie - that money was my savior - which was my case.

This was my story...

If it is at all possible for you - would you like to write down some more details for us as Maarten asked?

When did this happen?

What's the situation today?

What have you been trying?

Hope this helps.

Best

Henrik

I've been there... and I have been "fortunate" (double meaning intended...) with my friends, without whom I probably wouldn't be there anymore...

For me at least, the biggest thing was not the loss of money itself, but the shame it triggered in me. Does that ring a bell? (I would have loved to add your name here, would you be willing to give us a name? doesn't have to be your official name, though...).

In ACT terms: "having money" is a goal, not a value, are you familiar with this distinction?

So one very important way forward for me has been to remind myself of the values that I believed needed that money in order forme being able to express those values.

it was very liberating for me to realize (again and again, because it's so easy to forget in our culture) that even at my poorest I still could make gestures of friendship (one of my values)...

On a completely differ ent level: I have no clue of how much in danger you are to do the irreparable and definitive.

If this danger seems big, please look for professional help,too, in addition to reaching out here - which indeed is a wonderful gesture).

Another thing: thinking suicidal thoughts was a way of soothing me, strange as this may sound for some.

And precisely because they are soothing on the short term, they became stronger and stronger (and thus scarier and scarier...).

So I had to find other ways of soothing me - and yes realizing that I could still "worktowards friendship" was one of the ways Isoothed me;in thought and... more importantlly still on the longer term, in action.

I hope you can stay with us (and with people physically closer to you),

Maarten

>> I have been having suicidal thoughts since losing a large amount of money. Please help. Any ACT techniques I can use? Please help.>

[Guest guest]

Thank you, . I feel better now and less bothered by suicidal thoughts. I did a mindful breathing exercise and some other mindful exercises. Thanks so much for the welcome. Bob To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 2:33 AM Subject: Re: suicidal thoughts

Hello,

Thanks for reaching out.  I am sorry to hear of your troubles.  Please sit tight - you will likely find invaluable guidance, support, and companionship here.  And, be prepared to develop your patience, persistence, curiosity, and kindness muscles - developing skills consistent with ACT is quite a process. 

Wishing you a sense of peace and values-consistent living.  And, as says, " a lifetime of gentle returns " to practices that help

you keep in mind what is most important.

Jenn

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Block Lerner, PhD

Associate Professor

Dept. of Advanced Studies in Psychology

Kean University

jlerner@...

 

[Guest guest]

Hello Fellow Traveler,

I'd like to give you a couple of pearls that were given to me during those

turbulent times. One...thinking about suicide will not kill you, taking action

on those thoughts may (the difference is huge) and two, often we find ourselves

in difficult situations that are not of our doing or out of our control, we

can't change the situation but we have choices about how we respond, especially

when we find ourselves in the suicidal darkness.

From my experience, I believe that the pointlessness felt during such times is a

major contributor to the loss of motivation and even when it is possible to take

action, it is full of lackluster because it lacks meaning. I learned that the

sense of experiencing meaning is not a constant, it comes and goes and differs

in intensity (impact).

You asked about practicals...strategies...well...I'm not a psychologist but I

was fortunate to meet some wonderful, talented professionals who assisted me

through that darkness, particularly my therapist who endured so much as a result

of my disdain, yet he never gave up on me. A therapist is a good place to start.

So...within the moments of hopelessness when everything seems pointless and

nothing means anything, I took solace in connecting with my body. Examples

include dancing, meditation, having baths and showers, masturbating, juggling

and bouncing a ball against the wall (just to name a few). Of course sleeping

was a favourite but not functional 24-7.

Another thing to do is to work on 'distress tolerance' skills. A key element of

those skills is to acknowledge (notice, label or identify) what is going on in

your body, thoughts and emotions. This is easier said than done and it took a

very long time for me to develop that skill and many different environments

(contexts) to really get a grasp on remaining present (conscious) to the way I

experienced life. The practice of becoming mindful and aware surely saved my

life. That is the big picture long-term stuff though. For in the moment skill

development, I'd like to point you towards a particular website that has life

saving 'in the moment' strategies...it is the National Education Alliance for

BPD (not to say you experience borderline personality of course but the site is

great for understanding suicidal thinking)...

http://www.borderlinepersonalitydisorder.com/resources-news/media-library/confer\

ence-presentation-videos/

and....http://behavioraltech.org/resources/

I know that when in the moment, words are just words and almost everything seems

empty but the fact remains, time will continue. You will sleep today and wake

again tomorrow. That may seem pessimistic but the irony of the continuance of

time is that nothing ever stays the same. If you stick it out, the darkness

passes and things inevitably change. The most important skill is learning how to

NOT GIVE UP.

I hope these resources are useful to you, the hours I spent poring over this

information was life saving for me. I wish you consciousness during those dark

moments. Take care of yourself.

With humble respect,

Lou

>

> I have been having suicidal thoughts since losing a large amount of money.

Please help. Any ACT techniques I can use? Please help.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Maarten and Henrik.Thanks for your replies and help. What happened was I gave my wife a large amount of money to use to look for work overseas. The main reason I handed over the money was I was I felt guilty that I wasn't able to give a larger amount. She went overseas with his brother and looked for a job but wasn't successful. They're coming back this week.I asked if there was some money left and my told me that there is no more left. Then I had the thought that I had lost a lot of money. My wife and I don't have an emergency fund anymore. I had thoughts like, " I should not have given her the money. " " Why the hell did I give her the money? I could have just used that to pay her credit card bills and then helped her work here in our country. " I, then got the feeling of depression. The familiar image of hanging myself in my

room came to me. I was able to use mindfulness breathing and other techniques. I'm now feeling better but I might get this feeling again. I've having this recurrent suicidal feeling since I was a kid.Maarten, suicidal thoughts can be soothing sometimes. Sometimes i have the image of me hanging by a rope and dead and feeling peace with my wife and relatives crying over me. It is soothing in the short term but it does get stronger and gets scarier sometimes.Henrik, it's great that you were able to cope with it by talking it out with people. For me the " losing " of the money did bring feelings shame, guilt and anger. I also got the feeling of fear of needing money but not able to have any. I also had the thought that money gave me security and that I shouldn't waste it. I also had the thought that I was stupid. I then also had the thought that I shouldn't

have thought that I lost my money because I used for a good cause. My mind could be awful sometimes!I thought about the strongest reasons for living. The strongest reason for me not to kill myself is that when I hung myself I might end up paralyzed which is worse than being dead. I fought with my thought of suicide by telling myself that my values are what I'm living for. But my mind answered that life is about feeling as much pleasure as possible. I had thoughts like, " What's life for if not for experiencing as much pleasure as possible? " I'm not able to refute this thought and feels reasonable and true. So that's what happened. Thanks for sharing your experiences to me and helping me.Bob To: ACT_for_the_Public <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 4:47 AM Subject: Re: Re: suicidal thoughts

After Maarten's wonderful post...

I have been there too, and am still recovering from it. I don't mean to make it worse for you - as it has been going on for so long for me- but let me explain and clarify: I lost a lot of money several years ago, but I was not totally poor after the loss. I still had an apartment and some money left. But the loss which came very quick hit me like nothing hurt me before I think.

Before I lost the money, I more or less unconsciously used money as a cushion. Money insulated me from having to need people - and the risk of abandonment and also from the very exposed position you're in when you're dependent on keeping a job to pay your bills.

I had to do a lot of emotional work that consisted of talk and talk and talk about the situation I was in and that helped a lot. I cried.

I also had to change my life: Suddenly I had to go to different grocery stores to buy food, I had to take jobs that where not well paid etc... The talking helped and step by step I uncovered that I associated the loss of the money with shame as Maarten also experienced and also with a lot of early fearful memories of not being taken cared of when I was a small kid. The money had taken care of me so to speak and now it was mostly gone.

I've been dealing with the aftermaths of this for a long time, but what I'm working on now is no longer about the loss of money so much. Now it's about me not trusting life, not trusting my friends,not trusting myself. Before the loss, money covered up that distrust. Now it's out in the open. That's ultimately a good thing. Better to know the facts and then work with that, than living a lie - that money was my savior - which was my case.

This was my story...

If it is at all possible for you - would you like to write down some more details for us as Maarten asked?

When did this happen?

What's the situation today?

What have you been trying?

Hope this helps.

Best

Henrik

I've been there... and I have been " fortunate " (double meaning intended...) with my friends, without whom I probably wouldn't be there anymore...

For me at least, the biggest thing was not the loss of money itself, but the shame it triggered in me. Does that ring a bell? (I would have loved to add your name here, would you be willing to give us a name? doesn't have to be your official name, though...).

In ACT terms: " having money " is a goal, not a value, are you familiar with this distinction?

So one very important way forward for me has been to remind myself of the values that I believed needed that money in order forme being able to express those values.

it was very liberating for me to realize (again and again, because it's so easy to forget in our culture) that even at my poorest I still could make gestures of friendship (one of my values)...

On a completely differ ent level: I have no clue of how much in danger you are to do the irreparable and definitive.

If this danger seems big, please look for professional help,too, in addition to reaching out here - which indeed is a wonderful gesture).

Another thing: thinking suicidal thoughts was a way of soothing me, strange as this may sound for some.

And precisely because they are soothing on the short term, they became stronger and stronger (and thus scarier and scarier...).

So I had to find other ways of soothing me - and yes realizing that I could still " worktowards friendship " was one of the ways Isoothed me;in thought and... more importantlly still on the longer term, in action.

I hope you can stay with us (and with people physically closer to you),

Maarten

>> I have been having suicidal thoughts since losing a large amount of money. Please help. Any ACT techniques I can use? Please help.>

[Guest guest]

Thank you Bob, I'll chip in, and I think Maarten will answer more later...The thought you had that doesn't go away: "What's life for if not for experiencing as much pleasure as possible?" is interesting I think. I think there could be a value hidden there. Thoughts that don't go away usually have either a value behind them or an emotional pain that needs to be accepted and expressed as I see it. I think there's definitely a value there... Maybe it only needs to be rephrased a little? Pleasure in your relationship with your wife could be: having an open climate where you can openly talk about how money should be spent, about your need to have an emergency fund, how the burden of economic responsibility could be shared more equally between you and your wife? Long term - I mean. Maybe she's not in a position to do that right now, but maybe it's important for you to express these concerns even now. So that she can see what you need of her as well. These are just my guesses...And the peace you felt if you where hanging and everybody where crying: I think there's values there: Peace is important when you're alive too - not only when you imagine your death. How can you get more peace and calm in your life now? Not easy short term, but long term - how can you step by step build more peace into your life? Peace for me is reading in the sun, being close to those I love... What is peace for you?Same goes for soothing. Guessing: how can you fill your life with more soothing activities? Soothing to you I mean. Soothing for me means: being with the dog, taking time off, dating, talking to people who can listen... Soothing to you could be something different... What's soothing to you? How can you get more of that into you life? Small babysteps... Take care,Henrik Hi Maarten and Henrik.Thanks for your replies and help.What happened was I gave my wife a large amount of money to use to lookfor work overseas. The main reason I handed over the money was I was Ifelt guilty that I wasn't able to give a larger amount.She went overseas with his brother and looked for a job but wasn'tsuccessful. They're coming back this week.I asked if there was some money left and my told me that there is nomore left. Then I had the thought that I had lost a lot of money. Mywife and I don't have an emergency fund anymore. I had thoughts like, "Ishould not have given her the money." "Why the hell did I give her themoney? I could have just used that to pay her credit card bills and thenhelped her work here in our country."I, then got the feeling of depression. The familiar image of hangingmyself in my room came to me.I was able to use mindfulness breathing and other techniques. I'm nowfeeling better but I might get this feeling again. I've having thisrecurrent suicidal feeling since I was a kid.Maarten, suicidal thoughts can be soothing sometimes. Sometimes i havethe image of me hanging by a rope and dead and feeling peace with mywife and relatives crying over me.It is soothing in the short term but it does get stronger and getsscarier sometimes.Henrik, it's great that you were able to cope with it by talking it outwith people.For me the "losing" of the money did bring feelings shame, guilt andanger. I also got the feeling of fear of needing money but not able tohave any. I also had the thought that money gave me security and that Ishouldn't waste it. I also had the thought that I was stupid.I then also had the thought that I shouldn't have thought that I lost mymoney because I used for a good cause. My mind could be awful sometimes!I thought about the strongest reasons for living. The strongest reasonfor me not to kill myself is that when I hung myself I might end upparalyzed which is worse than being dead.I fought with my thought of suicide by telling myself that my values arewhat I'm living for. But my mind answered that life is about feeling asmuch pleasure as possible. I had thoughts like, "What's life for if notfor experiencing as much pleasure as possible?" I'm not able to refutethis thought and feels reasonable and true.So that's what happened. Thanks for sharing your experiences to me andhelping me.BobTo: ACT_for_the_Public <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 4:47 AMSubject: Re: Re: suicidal thoughtsAfter Maarten's wonderful post...I have been there too, and am still recovering from it. I don't mean tomake it worse for you - as it has been going on for so long for me- butlet me explain and clarify: I lost a lot of money several years ago, butI was not totally poor after the loss. I still had an apartment and somemoney left. But the loss which came very quick hit me like nothing hurtme before I think.Before I lost the money, I more or less unconsciously used money as acushion. Money insulated me from having to need people - and the risk ofabandonment and also from the very exposed position you're in whenyou're dependent on keeping a job to pay your bills.I had to do a lot of emotional work that consisted of talk and talk andtalk about the situation I was in and that helped a lot. I cried.I also had to change my life: Suddenly I had to go to different grocerystores to buy food, I had to take jobs that where not well paid etc...The talking helped and step by step I uncovered that I associated theloss of the money with shame as Maarten also experienced and also with alot of early fearful memories of not being taken cared of when I was asmall kid. The money had taken care of me so to speak and now it wasmostly gone.I've been dealing with the aftermaths of this for a long time, but whatI'm working on now is no longer about the loss of money so much. Nowit's about me not trusting life, not trusting my friends,not trustingmyself. Before the loss, money covered up that distrust. Now it's out inthe open. That's ultimately a good thing. Better to know the facts andthen work with that, than living a lie - that money was my savior -which was my case.This was my story...If it is at all possible for you - would you like to write down somemore details for us as Maarten asked?When did this happen?What's the situation today?What have you been trying?Hope this helps. :)BestHenrik> > > > I've been there... and I have been "fortunate" (double meaning> intended...) with my friends, without whom I probably wouldn't be> there anymore...> > > > > For me at least, the biggest thing was not the loss of money itself,> but the shame it triggered in me. Does that ring a bell? (I would have> loved to add your name here, would you be willing to give us a name?> doesn't have to be your official name, though...).> > > > > In ACT terms: "having money" is a goal, not a value, are you familiar> with this distinction?> > So one very important way forward for me has been to remind myself of> the values that I believed needed that money in order forme being able> to express those values.> > it was very liberating for me to realize (again and again, because> it's so easy to forget in our culture) that even at my poorest I still> could make gestures of friendship (one of my values)...> > > > > On a completely differ ent level: I have no clue of how much in danger> you are to do the irreparable and definitive.> > If this danger seems big, please look for professional help,too, in> addition to reaching out here - which indeed is a wonderful gesture).> > > > > Another thing: thinking suicidal thoughts was a way of soothing me,> strange as this may sound for some.> > And precisely because they are soothing on the short term, they became> stronger and stronger (and thus scarier and scarier...).> > So I had to find other ways of soothing me - and yes realizing that I> could still "worktowards friendship" was one of the ways Isoothed> me;in thought and... more importantlly still on the longer term, in> action.> > > > > I hope you can stay with us (and with people physically closer to> you),> > > > > Maarten> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I have been having suicidal thoughts since losing a large amount of> > money. Please help. Any ACT techniques I can use? Please help.> >> >

[Guest guest]

Yes, as Henrik suggested, I want to chime inUnfortunately i'm abit under time pressure, so I have to be a bit brief, and my words my sound a bit harsher than they are meant to be...I want to zoom in on exactly the same to ponts you mentioned, Bob: "What's life for if not for experiencing as much pleasure as possible?It seems important to me to be as clear as possible about what kind of pleasure you're thinking here...There are some kinds of pleasure (of the "feel good"-kind) that can keepyou vulnerable to suicidal wishes -especially as we get older.And then there is a pleasure that I'd call maybe "fulfillment" or "deep satisfaction" which is the fruit of values-based action, even if it requires accepting pain...From my perspective, this latter form of "pleasure" could well be more helpful on the long term, but that's from my perspective... Let your experience be your guide here, as we say over and over in ACT>.And yes, it seems important for you that people are crying when they find you.So here's my second question: what's important for you, here? That you're important to them, for instance? And are there other, more life-affirmative ways in which you can act on that value, of being of importance for ,ear and dear ones?Again, sorry for the brievity, and the maybe "mindy-sounding" tone of this mail...Rushing off,Maarten> > > >> > > > I have been having suicidal thoughts since losing a large amount> > > > of> > > > money. Please help. Any ACT techniques I can use? Please help.> > > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>

[Guest guest]

Hi Bob and Henrik,Sorry you're having such discomfort now Bob. I can tell you disspointments like this won't ever go away fully but practicing ACT does help me focus on other things and just takes the wind out of lots of the pain. People places and situations become more over time less dramatic. Just what it is and not

what my mind insists it is. And with that you become more effective and creative and dealing with what's so.I have a long way to go but just wanted to offer some hope. Keep digging in the work with time and practice.One of the problems with death btw is we're just dead. We're not calm, we're not "not calm" either. We cease to have evaluative descriptive language and cognition for whatever is going on when we're dead, so far as I

understand. Unless you know something about death that I don't!Henrik...Not trying to pick on you but caught something here you may want to look at:Feeling states like peace, calm, soothing are nice to want but very tricky to have as values. I say this only because I

think Henrik I've heard you mention this a couple of times..again, not trying to pick on you but it's been such a point of confusion in ACT land I think it's worth a closer look.A value called "a calm life" feels like it's some place to arrive at, an outcome where you're perpetually calm and not say (god forbid!) agitated. It's not a bad thing to want more calm, but I'm not sure calm as a feeling state is helpful wording for a value in ACT land.Maybe this is just a language thing again, maybe you're meaning it more as an opening up to and not a place you are chasing after. For more clarity on this

issue of values such as happiness, contentment, serenity, I don't think it gets much better than post from the professional list. Message #9136.Sure helped me a ton. Kind regards,terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 10:45 AM Subject: Re: Re: suicidal thoughts

Thank you Bob, I'll chip in, and I think Maarten will answer more later...The thought you had that doesn't go away: "What's life for if not for experiencing as much pleasure as possible?" is interesting I think. I think there could be a value hidden there. Thoughts that don't go away usually have either a value behind them or an emotional pain that needs to be accepted and expressed as I see it. I think there's definitely a value there... Maybe it only needs to be rephrased a little? Pleasure in your relationship with your wife could be: having an open climate where you can openly talk about how money should be spent, about your need to have an emergency fund, how the burden of economic responsibility could be shared more equally between you and your wife? Long term - I mean. Maybe she's not in a position to do that right now, but maybe it's important for you to

express these concerns even now. So that she can see what you need of her as well. These are just my guesses...And the peace you felt if you where hanging and everybody where crying: I think there's values there: Peace is important when you're alive too - not only when you imagine your death. How can you get more peace and calm in your life now? Not easy short term, but long term - how can you step by step build more peace into your life? Peace for me is reading in the sun, being close to those I love... What is peace for you?Same goes for soothing. Guessing: how can you fill your life with more soothing activities? Soothing to you I mean. Soothing for me means: being with the dog, taking time off, dating, talking to people who can listen... Soothing to you could be something different... What's soothing to you? How can you get more of that into you life? Small

babysteps... Take care,Henrik Hi Maarten and Henrik.Thanks for your replies and help.What happened was I gave my wife a large amount of money to use to lookfor work overseas. The main reason I handed over the money was I was Ifelt guilty that I wasn't able to give a larger amount.She went overseas with his brother and looked for a job but wasn'tsuccessful. They're coming back this week.I asked if there was some money left and my told me that there is nomore left. Then I had the thought that I had lost a lot of money. Mywife and I don't have an emergency fund anymore. I had thoughts like, "Ishould not have given her the

money." "Why the hell did I give her themoney? I could have just used that to pay her credit card bills and thenhelped her work here in our country."I, then got the feeling of depression. The familiar image of hangingmyself in my room came to me.I was able to use mindfulness breathing and other techniques. I'm nowfeeling better but I might get this feeling again. I've having thisrecurrent suicidal feeling since I was a kid.Maarten, suicidal thoughts can be soothing sometimes. Sometimes i havethe image of me hanging by a rope and dead and feeling peace with mywife and relatives crying over me.It is soothing in the short term but it does get stronger and getsscarier sometimes.Henrik, it's great that you were able to cope with it by talking it outwith people.For me the "losing" of the money did bring feelings shame, guilt andanger. I also got the feeling of fear of

needing money but not able tohave any. I also had the thought that money gave me security and that Ishouldn't waste it. I also had the thought that I was stupid.I then also had the thought that I shouldn't have thought that I lost mymoney because I used for a good cause. My mind could be awful sometimes!I thought about the strongest reasons for living. The strongest reasonfor me not to kill myself is that when I hung myself I might end upparalyzed which is worse than being dead.I fought with my thought of suicide by telling myself that my values arewhat I'm living for. But my mind answered that life is about feeling asmuch pleasure as possible. I had thoughts like, "What's life for if notfor experiencing as much pleasure as possible?" I'm not able to refutethis thought and feels reasonable and true.So that's what happened. Thanks for sharing your experiences to me andhelping

me.BobTo: ACT_for_the_Public <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 4:47 AMSubject: Re: Re: suicidal thoughtsAfter Maarten's wonderful post...I have been there too, and am still recovering from it. I don't mean tomake it worse for you - as it has been going on for so long for me- butlet me explain and clarify: I lost a lot of money several years ago, butI was not totally poor after the loss. I still had an apartment and somemoney left. But the loss which came very quick hit me like

nothing hurtme before I think.Before I lost the money, I more or less unconsciously used money as acushion. Money insulated me from having to need people - and the risk ofabandonment and also from the very exposed position you're in whenyou're dependent on keeping a job to pay your bills.I had to do a lot of emotional work that consisted of talk and talk andtalk about the situation I was in and that helped a lot. I cried.I also had to change my life: Suddenly I had to go to different grocerystores to buy food, I had to take jobs that where not well paid etc...The talking helped and step by step I uncovered that I associated theloss of the money with shame as Maarten also experienced and also with alot of early fearful memories of not being taken cared of when I was asmall kid. The money had taken care of me so to speak and now it wasmostly

gone.I've been dealing with the aftermaths of this for a long time, but whatI'm working on now is no longer about the loss of money so much. Nowit's about me not trusting life, not trusting my friends,not trustingmyself. Before the loss, money covered up that distrust. Now it's out inthe open. That's ultimately a good thing. Better to know the facts andthen work with that, than living a lie - that money was my savior -which was my case.This was my story...If it is at all possible for you - would you like to write down somemore details for us as Maarten asked?When did this happen?What's the situation today?What have you been trying?Hope this helps. :)BestHenrik> > > > I've been there... and I have been "fortunate" (double meaning> intended...) with my friends, without whom I probably wouldn't be> there anymore...> > > > > For me at least, the biggest thing was not the loss of money itself,> but the shame it triggered in me. Does that ring a bell? (I would have> loved to add your name here, would you be willing to give us a name?> doesn't have to be your official name, though...).> > > > > In ACT terms: "having money" is a goal, not a value, are you familiar> with this distinction?> > So one very important way forward for me has been to remind myself of> the values that I believed needed that money in order forme being able> to express those values.> > it

was very liberating for me to realize (again and again, because> it's so easy to forget in our culture) that even at my poorest I still> could make gestures of friendship (one of my values)...> > > > > On a completely differ ent level: I have no clue of how much in danger> you are to do the irreparable and definitive.> > If this danger seems big, please look for professional help,too, in> addition to reaching out here - which indeed is a wonderful gesture).> > > > > Another thing: thinking suicidal thoughts was a way of soothing me,> strange as this may sound for some.> > And precisely because they are soothing on the short term, they became> stronger and stronger (and thus scarier and scarier...).> > So I had to find other ways of soothing me - and yes realizing that I> could still "worktowards

friendship" was one of the ways Isoothed> me;in thought and... more importantlly still on the longer term, in> action.> > > > > I hope you can stay with us (and with people physically closer to> you),> > > > > Maarten> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I have been having suicidal thoughts since losing a large amount of> > money. Please help. Any ACT techniques I can use? Please help.> >> >

[Guest guest]

Oh, Henrik, sorry..I might be completely off base here.. I do see you now are saying "building peace into life"..that feels much more like a value, an active doing, an ongoing process. Feel free to disregard if my cautionary notes don't apply!terry To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 3:57 PM Subject: Re: Re: suicidal thoughts Hi Bob and

Henrik,Sorry you're having such discomfort now Bob. I can tell you disspointments like this won't ever go away fully but practicing ACT does help me focus on other things and just takes the wind out of lots of the pain. People places and situations become more over time less dramatic. Just what it is and not

what my mind insists it is. And with that you become more effective and creative and dealing with what's so.I have a long way to go but just wanted to offer some hope. Keep digging in the work with time and practice.One of the problems with death btw is we're just dead. We're not calm, we're not "not calm" either. We cease to have evaluative descriptive language and cognition for whatever is going on when we're dead, so far as I

understand. Unless you know something about death that I don't!Henrik...Not trying to pick on you but caught something here you may want to look at:Feeling states like peace, calm, soothing are nice to want but very tricky to have as values. I say this only because I

think Henrik I've heard you mention this a couple of times..again, not trying to pick on you but it's been such a point of confusion in ACT land I think it's worth a closer look.A value called "a calm life" feels like it's some place to arrive at, an outcome where you're perpetually calm and not say (god forbid!) agitated. It's not a bad thing to want more calm, but I'm not sure calm as a feeling state is helpful wording for a value in ACT land.Maybe this is just a language thing again, maybe you're meaning it more as an opening up to and not a place you are chasing after. For more clarity on this

issue of values such as happiness, contentment, serenity, I don't think it gets much better than post from the professional list. Message #9136.Sure helped me a ton. Kind regards,terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 10:45 AM Subject: Re: Re: suicidal thoughts

Thank you Bob, I'll chip in, and I think Maarten will answer more later...The thought you had that doesn't go away: "What's life for if not for experiencing as much pleasure as possible?" is interesting I think. I think there could be a value hidden there. Thoughts that don't go away usually have either a value behind them or an emotional pain that needs to be accepted and expressed as I see it. I think there's definitely a value there... Maybe it only needs to be rephrased a little? Pleasure in your relationship with your wife could be: having an open climate where you can openly talk about how money should be spent, about your need to have an emergency fund, how the burden of economic responsibility could be shared more equally between you and your wife? Long term - I mean. Maybe she's not in a position to do that right now, but maybe it's important for you to

express these concerns even now. So that she can see what you need of her as well. These are just my guesses...And the peace you felt if you where hanging and everybody where crying: I think there's values there: Peace is important when you're alive too - not only when you imagine your death. How can you get more peace and calm in your life now? Not easy short term, but long term - how can you step by step build more peace into your life? Peace for me is reading in the sun, being close to those I love... What is peace for you?Same goes for soothing. Guessing: how can you fill your life with more soothing activities? Soothing to you I mean. Soothing for me means: being with the dog, taking time off, dating, talking to people who can listen... Soothing to you could be something different... What's soothing to you? How can you get more of that into you life? Small

babysteps... Take care,Henrik Hi Maarten and Henrik.Thanks for your replies and help.What happened was I gave my wife a large amount of money to use to lookfor work overseas. The main reason I handed over the money was I was Ifelt guilty that I wasn't able to give a larger amount.She went overseas with his brother and looked for a job but wasn'tsuccessful. They're coming back this week.I asked if there was some money left and my told me that there is nomore left. Then I had the thought that I had lost a lot of money. Mywife and I don't have an emergency fund anymore. I had thoughts like, "Ishould not have given her the

money." "Why the hell did I give her themoney? I could have just used that to pay her credit card bills and thenhelped her work here in our country."I, then got the feeling of depression. The familiar image of hangingmyself in my room came to me.I was able to use mindfulness breathing and other techniques. I'm nowfeeling better but I might get this feeling again. I've having thisrecurrent suicidal feeling since I was a kid.Maarten, suicidal thoughts can be soothing sometimes. Sometimes i havethe image of me hanging by a rope and dead and feeling peace with mywife and relatives crying over me.It is soothing in the short term but it does get stronger and getsscarier sometimes.Henrik, it's great that you were able to cope with it by talking it outwith people.For me the "losing" of the money did bring feelings shame, guilt andanger. I also got the feeling of fear of

needing money but not able tohave any. I also had the thought that money gave me security and that Ishouldn't waste it. I also had the thought that I was stupid.I then also had the thought that I shouldn't have thought that I lost mymoney because I used for a good cause. My mind could be awful sometimes!I thought about the strongest reasons for living. The strongest reasonfor me not to kill myself is that when I hung myself I might end upparalyzed which is worse than being dead.I fought with my thought of suicide by telling myself that my values arewhat I'm living for. But my mind answered that life is about feeling asmuch pleasure as possible. I had thoughts like, "What's life for if notfor experiencing as much pleasure as possible?" I'm not able to refutethis thought and feels reasonable and true.So that's what happened. Thanks for sharing your experiences to me andhelping

me.BobTo: ACT_for_the_Public <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 4:47 AMSubject: Re: Re: suicidal thoughtsAfter Maarten's wonderful post...I have been there too, and am still recovering from it. I don't mean tomake it worse for you - as it has been going on for so long for me- butlet me explain and clarify: I lost a lot of money several years ago, butI was not totally poor after the loss. I still had an apartment and somemoney left. But the loss which came very quick hit me like

nothing hurtme before I think.Before I lost the money, I more or less unconsciously used money as acushion. Money insulated me from having to need people - and the risk ofabandonment and also from the very exposed position you're in whenyou're dependent on keeping a job to pay your bills.I had to do a lot of emotional work that consisted of talk and talk andtalk about the situation I was in and that helped a lot. I cried.I also had to change my life: Suddenly I had to go to different grocerystores to buy food, I had to take jobs that where not well paid etc...The talking helped and step by step I uncovered that I associated theloss of the money with shame as Maarten also experienced and also with alot of early fearful memories of not being taken cared of when I was asmall kid. The money had taken care of me so to speak and now it wasmostly

gone.I've been dealing with the aftermaths of this for a long time, but whatI'm working on now is no longer about the loss of money so much. Nowit's about me not trusting life, not trusting my friends,not trustingmyself. Before the loss, money covered up that distrust. Now it's out inthe open. That's ultimately a good thing. Better to know the facts andthen work with that, than living a lie - that money was my savior -which was my case.This was my story...If it is at all possible for you - would you like to write down somemore details for us as Maarten asked?When did this happen?What's the situation today?What have you been trying?Hope this helps. :)BestHenrik> > > > I've been there... and I have been "fortunate" (double meaning> intended...) with my friends, without whom I probably wouldn't be> there anymore...> > > > > For me at least, the biggest thing was not the loss of money itself,> but the shame it triggered in me. Does that ring a bell? (I would have> loved to add your name here, would you be willing to give us a name?> doesn't have to be your official name, though...).> > > > > In ACT terms: "having money" is a goal, not a value, are you familiar> with this distinction?> > So one very important way forward for me has been to remind myself of> the values that I believed needed that money in order forme being able> to express those values.> > it

was very liberating for me to realize (again and again, because> it's so easy to forget in our culture) that even at my poorest I still> could make gestures of friendship (one of my values)...> > > > > On a completely differ ent level: I have no clue of how much in danger> you are to do the irreparable and definitive.> > If this danger seems big, please look for professional help,too, in> addition to reaching out here - which indeed is a wonderful gesture).> > > > > Another thing: thinking suicidal thoughts was a way of soothing me,> strange as this may sound for some.> > And precisely because they are soothing on the short term, they became> stronger and stronger (and thus scarier and scarier...).> > So I had to find other ways of soothing me - and yes realizing that I> could still "worktowards

friendship" was one of the ways Isoothed> me;in thought and... more importantlly still on the longer term, in> action.> > > > > I hope you can stay with us (and with people physically closer to> you),> > > > > Maarten> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I have been having suicidal thoughts since losing a large amount of> > money. Please help. Any ACT techniques I can use? Please help.> >> >

[Guest guest]

No problem, Terry!I like this back and forth discussion about wording - I think it's important. Words are not so clear cut, IMHO, even though we aim for it. Sometimes I mix it up even if I've read a hundred times what values are...What I meant was: Some of the things we aim for in life are indeed not values: I.e. happiness, peace, joy, not having anxiety etc...I don't think a correct way to deal with the longing is saying to yourself: "I musn't want this - it's not a value" (not saying you're saying that Terry - just trying to explain my point..) One way is just to accept the longing as a longing and all the emotions associated with the longing. Another way is to go with the flow so to say and take a longing like "peace" or "joy" and see what behaviors would take you that way.Peace: going home from work on time, holding my tongue at meetings sometimes...Joy: Being with the dog, talking to friends, going to parties...Then you can take it a step further and transform these activities into values... See what those behaviors have in common and see what value lies behind it...Taking care of myself Being a good and close friend...Makes sense?? (I'm really asking, Terry.))Warm greetingsHenrik Oh, Henrik, sorry..I might be completely off base here.. I do see younow are saying "building peace into life"..that feels much more like avalue, an active doing, an ongoing process.Feel free to disregard if my cautionary notes don't apply!terryTo: "ACT_for_the_Public "<ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 3:57 PMSubject: Re: Re: suicidal thoughtsHi Bob and Henrik,Sorry you're having such discomfort now Bob. I can tell youdisspointments like this won't ever go away fully but practicing ACTdoes help me focus on other things and just takes the wind out of lotsof the pain. People places and situations become more over time lessdramatic.Just what it is and not what my mind insists it is. And with that youbecome more effective and creative and dealing with what's so.I have a long way to go but just wanted to offer some hope. Keep diggingin the work with time and practice.One of the problems with death btw is we're just dead. We're not calm,we're not "not calm" either. We cease to have evaluative descriptivelanguage and cognition for whatever is going on when we're dead, so faras I understand. Unless you know something about death that I don't!Henrik...Not trying to pick on you but caught something here you maywant to look at:Feeling states like peace, calm, soothing are nice to want but verytricky to have as values. I say this only because I think Henrik I'veheard you mention this a couple of times..again, not trying to pick onyou but it's been such a point of confusion in ACT land I think it'sworth a closer look.A value called "a calm life" feels like it's some place to arrive at, anoutcome where you're perpetually calm and not say (god forbid!)agitated. It's not a bad thing to want more calm, but I'm not sure calmas a feeling state is helpful wording for a value in ACT land.Maybe this is just a language thing again, maybe you're meaning it moreas an opening up to and not a place you are chasing after.For more clarity on this issue of values such as happiness, contentment,serenity, I don't think it gets much better than post fromthe professional list. Message #9136.Sure helped me a ton.Kind regards,terryTo: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 10:45 AMSubject: Re: Re: suicidal thoughtsThank you Bob,I'll chip in, and I think Maarten will answer more later...The thought you had that doesn't go away: "What's life for if not forexperiencing as much pleasure as possible?" is interesting I think. Ithink there could be a value hidden there. Thoughts that don't go awayusually have either a value behind them or an emotional pain that needsto be accepted and expressed as I see it.I think there's definitely a value there... Maybe it only needs to berephrased a little? Pleasure in your relationship with your wife couldbe: having an open climate where you can openly talk about how moneyshould be spent, about your need to have an emergency fund, how theburden of economic responsibility could be shared more equally betweenyou and your wife? Long term - I mean. Maybe she's not in a position todo that right now, but maybe it's important for you to express theseconcerns even now. So that she can see what you need of her as well.These are just my guesses...And the peace you felt if you where hanging and everybody where crying:I think there's values there: Peace is important when you're alive too -not only when you imagine your death. How can you get more peace andcalm in your life now? Not easy short term, but long term - how can youstep by step build more peace into your life? Peace for me is reading inthe sun, being close to those I love... What is peace for you?Same goes for soothing. Guessing: how can you fill your life with moresoothing activities? Soothing to you I mean. Soothing for me means:being with the dog, taking time off, dating, talking to people who canlisten... Soothing to you could be something different... What'ssoothing to you? How can you get more of that into you life? Smallbabysteps...Take care,Henrik> > > Hi Maarten and Henrik.> > Thanks for your replies and help.> > What happened was I gave my wife a large amount of money to use to> look> for work overseas. The main reason I handed over the money was I was I> felt guilty that I wasn't able to give a larger amount.> > She went overseas with his brother and looked for a job but wasn't> successful. They're coming back this week.> > I asked if there was some money left and my told me that there is no> more left. Then I had the thought that I had lost a lot of money. My> wife and I don't have an emergency fund anymore. I had thoughts like,> "I> should not have given her the money." "Why the hell did I give her the> money? I could have just used that to pay her credit card bills and> then> helped her work here in our country."> > I, then got the feeling of depression. The familiar image of hanging> myself in my room came to me.> > I was able to use mindfulness breathing and other techniques. I'm now> feeling better but I might get this feeling again. I've having this> recurrent suicidal feeling since I was a kid.> > Maarten, suicidal thoughts can be soothing sometimes. Sometimes i have> the image of me hanging by a rope and dead and feeling peace with my> wife and relatives crying over me.> > It is soothing in the short term but it does get stronger and gets> scarier sometimes.> > Henrik, it's great that you were able to cope with it by talking it> out> with people.> > For me the "losing" of the money did bring feelings shame, guilt and> anger. I also got the feeling of fear of needing money but not able to> have any. I also had the thought that money gave me security and that> I> shouldn't waste it. I also had the thought that I was stupid.> > I then also had the thought that I shouldn't have thought that I lost> my> money because I used for a good cause. My mind could be awful> sometimes!> > I thought about the strongest reasons for living. The strongest reason> for me not to kill myself is that when I hung myself I might end up> paralyzed which is worse than being dead.> > I fought with my thought of suicide by telling myself that my values> are> what I'm living for. But my mind answered that life is about feeling> as> much pleasure as possible. I had thoughts like, "What's life for if> not> for experiencing as much pleasure as possible?" I'm not able to refute> this thought and feels reasonable and true.> > So that's what happened. Thanks for sharing your experiences to me and> helping me.> > Bob> > > > > > > > To: ACT_for_the_Public <ACT_for_the_Public >> Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 4:47 AM> Subject: Re: Re: suicidal thoughts> > > > > > After Maarten's wonderful post...> > > > I have been there too, and am still recovering from it. I don't mean> to> make it worse for you - as it has been going on for so long for me-> but> let me explain and clarify: I lost a lot of money several years ago,> but> I was not totally poor after the loss. I still had an apartment and> some> money left. But the loss which came very quick hit me like nothing> hurt> me before I think.> > > > Before I lost the money, I more or less unconsciously used money as a> cushion. Money insulated me from having to need people - and the risk> of> abandonment and also from the very exposed position you're in when> you're dependent on keeping a job to pay your bills.> > > > I had to do a lot of emotional work that consisted of talk and talk> and> talk about the situation I was in and that helped a lot. I cried.> > > > I also had to change my life: Suddenly I had to go to different> grocery> stores to buy food, I had to take jobs that where not well paid etc...> The talking helped and step by step I uncovered that I associated the> loss of the money with shame as Maarten also experienced and also with> a> lot of early fearful memories of not being taken cared of when I was a> small kid. The money had taken care of me so to speak and now it was> mostly gone.> > > > I've been dealing with the aftermaths of this for a long time, but> what> I'm working on now is no longer about the loss of money so much. Now> it's about me not trusting life, not trusting my friends,not trusting> myself. Before the loss, money covered up that distrust. Now it's out> in> the open. That's ultimately a good thing. Better to know the facts and> then work with that, than living a lie - that money was my savior -> which was my case.> > > > This was my story...> > > > If it is at all possible for you - would you like to write down some> more details for us as Maarten asked?> > When did this happen?> > What's the situation today?> > What have you been trying?> > > > Hope this helps. > > Best> > Henrik> > > > > On 27 aug 2012 11:55 "Maarten" <m.aalbersegmail (DOT) com>> wrote:> > >> >> >> > I've been there... and I have been "fortunate" (double meaning> > intended...) with my friends, without whom I probably wouldn't be> > there anymore...> >> >> >> >> > For me at least, the biggest thing was not the loss of money itself,> > but the shame it triggered in me. Does that ring a bell? (I would> > have> > loved to add your name here, would you be willing to give us a name?> > doesn't have to be your official name, though...).> >> >> >> >> > In ACT terms: "having money" is a goal, not a value, are you> > familiar> > with this distinction?> >> > So one very important way forward for me has been to remind myself> > of> > the values that I believed needed that money in order forme being> > able> > to express those values.> >> > it was very liberating for me to realize (again and again, because> > it's so easy to forget in our culture) that even at my poorest I> > still> > could make gestures of friendship (one of my values)...> >> >> >> >> > On a completely differ ent level: I have no clue of how much in> > danger> > you are to do the irreparable and definitive.> >> > If this danger seems big, please look for professional help,too, in> > addition to reaching out here - which indeed is a wonderful> > gesture).> >> >> >> >> > Another thing: thinking suicidal thoughts was a way of soothing me,> > strange as this may sound for some.> >> > And precisely because they are soothing on the short term, they> > became> > stronger and stronger (and thus scarier and scarier...).> >> > So I had to find other ways of soothing me - and yes realizing that> > I> > could still "worktowards friendship" was one of the ways Isoothed> > me;in thought and... more importantlly still on the longer term, in> > action.> >> >> >> >> > I hope you can stay with us (and with people physically closer to> > you),> >> >> >> >> > Maarten> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > >> > > I have been having suicidal thoughts since losing a large amount> > > of> > > money. Please help. Any ACT techniques I can use? Please help.> > >> >> >> > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Hi Terry,Thanks for replying. I'm feeling better now. I'll keep on moving forward with ACT and methods I learned from other psychotherapies like DBT. You're right with death. My mind frequently generates images of me hanging in my room and feeling peace. It's obviously

wrong. You can only feel peace and calm when you're alive. Henrik,My mind keeps on generating this thought that "Life 's purpose is to experience as much pleasure as possible and to feel discomfort and pain the least." This what I was trying to get across initially but I wasn't able to fully write it down. But if I fuse with this thought, I'd actually get less pleasure and more discomfort and pain. I'll get fused with the mental rule of avoiding negative feelings and

thoughts and they become stronger that I may end up killing myself.Thanks for your insights and I'll look deeper into these issues. I definitely should have a talk with my wife about the finances. I should also practice self soothing practices as well when necessary.Bob To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 3:57 PM Subject: Re: Re: suicidal thoughts

Hi Bob and Henrik,Sorry you're having such discomfort now Bob. I can tell you disspointments like this won't ever go away fully but practicing ACT does help me focus on other things and just takes the wind out of lots of the pain. People places and situations become more over time less dramatic. Just what it is and not

what my mind insists it is. And with that you become more effective and creative and dealing with what's so.I have a long way to go but just wanted to offer some hope. Keep digging in the work with time and practice.One of the problems with death btw is we're just dead. We're not calm, we're not "not calm" either. We cease to have evaluative descriptive language and cognition for whatever is going on when we're dead, so far as I

understand. Unless you know something about death that I don't!Henrik...Not trying to pick on you but caught something here you may want to look at:Feeling states like peace, calm, soothing are nice to want but very tricky to have as values. I say this

only because I

think Henrik I've heard you mention this a couple of times..again, not trying to pick on you but it's been such a point of confusion in ACT land I think it's worth a closer look.A value called "a calm life" feels like it's some place to arrive at, an outcome where you're perpetually calm and not say (god forbid!) agitated. It's not a bad thing to want more calm, but I'm not sure calm as a feeling state is helpful wording for a value in ACT land.Maybe this is just a language thing again, maybe you're meaning it more as an opening up to and not a place you are chasing after. For more clarity on

this

issue of values such as happiness, contentment, serenity, I don't think it gets much better than post from the professional list. Message #9136.Sure helped me a ton. Kind regards,terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 10:45 AM Subject: Re: Re: suicidal thoughts

Thank you Bob, I'll chip in, and I think Maarten will answer more later...The thought you had that doesn't go away: "What's life for if not for experiencing as much pleasure as possible?" is interesting I think. I think there could be a value hidden there. Thoughts that don't go away usually have either a value behind them or an emotional pain that needs to be accepted and expressed as I see it. I think there's definitely a value there... Maybe it only needs to be rephrased a little? Pleasure in your relationship with your wife could be: having an open climate where you can openly talk about how money should be spent, about your need to have an emergency fund, how the burden of economic responsibility could be shared more equally between you and your wife? Long term - I mean. Maybe she's not in a position to do that right now, but maybe it's important for you to

express these concerns even now. So that she can see what you need of her as well. These are just my guesses...And the peace you felt if you where hanging and everybody where crying: I think there's values there: Peace is important when you're alive too - not only when you imagine your death. How can you get more peace and calm in your life now? Not easy short term, but long term - how can you step by step build more peace into your life? Peace for me is reading in the sun, being close to those I love... What is peace for you?Same goes for soothing. Guessing: how can you fill your life with more soothing activities? Soothing to you I mean. Soothing for me means: being with the dog, taking time off, dating, talking to people who can listen... Soothing to you could be something different... What's soothing to you? How can you get more of that into you life? Small

babysteps... Take care,Henrik Hi Maarten and Henrik.Thanks for your replies and help.What happened was I gave my wife a large amount of money to use to lookfor work overseas. The main reason I handed over the money was I was Ifelt guilty that I wasn't able to give a larger amount.She went overseas with his brother and looked for a job but wasn'tsuccessful. They're coming back this week.I asked if there was some money left and my told me that there is nomore left. Then I had the thought that I had lost a lot of money. Mywife and I don't have an emergency fund anymore. I had thoughts like, "Ishould not have given her the

money." "Why the hell did I give her themoney? I could have just used that to pay her credit card bills and thenhelped her work here in our country."I, then got the feeling of depression. The familiar image of hangingmyself in my room came to me.I was able to use mindfulness breathing and other techniques. I'm nowfeeling better but I might get this feeling again. I've having thisrecurrent suicidal feeling since I was a kid.Maarten, suicidal thoughts can be soothing sometimes. Sometimes i havethe image of me hanging by a rope and dead and feeling peace with mywife and relatives crying over me.It is soothing in the short term but it does get stronger and getsscarier sometimes.Henrik, it's great that you were able to cope with it by talking it outwith people.For me the "losing" of the money did bring feelings shame, guilt andanger. I also got the feeling of fear of

needing money but not able tohave any. I also had the thought that money gave me security and that Ishouldn't waste it. I also had the thought that I was stupid.I then also had the thought that I shouldn't have thought that I lost mymoney because I used for a good cause. My mind could be awful sometimes!I thought about the strongest reasons for living. The strongest reasonfor me not to kill myself is that when I hung myself I might end upparalyzed which is worse than being dead.I fought with my thought of suicide by telling myself that my values arewhat I'm living for. But my mind answered that life is about feeling asmuch pleasure as possible. I had thoughts like, "What's life for if notfor experiencing as much pleasure as possible?" I'm not able to refutethis thought and feels reasonable and true.So that's what happened. Thanks for sharing your experiences to me andhelping

me.BobTo: ACT_for_the_Public <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 4:47 AMSubject: Re: Re: suicidal thoughtsAfter Maarten's wonderful post...I have been there too, and am still recovering from it. I don't mean tomake it worse for you - as it has been going on for so long for me- butlet me explain and clarify: I lost a lot of money several years ago, butI was not totally poor after the loss. I still had an apartment and somemoney left. But the loss which came very quick hit me like

nothing hurtme before I think.Before I lost the money, I more or less unconsciously used money as acushion. Money insulated me from having to need people - and the risk ofabandonment and also from the very exposed position you're in whenyou're dependent on keeping a job to pay your bills.I had to do a lot of emotional work that consisted of talk and talk andtalk about the situation I was in and that helped a lot. I cried.I also had to change my life: Suddenly I had to go to different grocerystores to buy food, I had to take jobs that where not well paid etc...The talking helped and step by step I uncovered that I associated theloss of the money with shame as Maarten also experienced and also with alot of early fearful memories of not being taken cared of when I was asmall kid. The money had taken care of me so to speak and now it wasmostly

gone.I've been dealing with the aftermaths of this for a long time, but whatI'm working on now is no longer about the loss of money so much. Nowit's about me not trusting life, not trusting my friends,not trustingmyself. Before the loss, money covered up that distrust. Now it's out inthe open. That's ultimately a good thing. Better to know the facts andthen work with that, than living a lie - that money was my savior -which was my case.This was my story...If it is at all possible for you - would you like to write down somemore details for us as Maarten asked?When did this happen?What's the situation today?What have you been trying?Hope this helps. :)BestHenrik> > > > I've been there... and I have been "fortunate" (double meaning> intended...) with my friends, without whom I probably wouldn't be> there anymore...> > > > > For me at least, the biggest thing was not the loss of money itself,> but the shame it triggered in me. Does that ring a bell? (I would have> loved to add your name here, would you be willing to give us a name?> doesn't have to be your official name, though...).> > > > > In ACT terms: "having money" is a goal, not a value, are you familiar> with this distinction?> > So one very important way forward for me has been to remind myself of> the values that I believed needed that money in order forme being able> to express those values.> > it

was very liberating for me to realize (again and again, because> it's so easy to forget in our culture) that even at my poorest I still> could make gestures of friendship (one of my values)...> > > > > On a completely differ ent level: I have no clue of how much in danger> you are to do the irreparable and definitive.> > If this danger seems big, please look for professional help,too, in> addition to reaching out here - which indeed is a wonderful gesture).> > > > > Another thing: thinking suicidal thoughts was a way of soothing me,> strange as this may sound for some.> > And precisely because they are soothing on the short term, they became> stronger and stronger (and thus scarier and scarier...).> > So I had to find other ways of soothing me - and yes realizing that I> could still "worktowards

friendship" was one of the ways Isoothed> me;in thought and... more importantlly still on the longer term, in> action.> > > > > I hope you can stay with us (and with people physically closer to> you),> > > > > Maarten> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I have been having suicidal thoughts since losing a large amount of> > money. Please help. Any ACT techniques I can use? Please help.> >> >

[Guest guest]

Hey dear friend,Just giving you a hard time cause I've known you for a while and it's great to have you share so fully here. Really great. Your sharing has created a huge opening for me..that recent one about finances..oh my, could i relate! Plus, I know you know my comments are not attacks and that is so refreshing..thanks for that! Yeah, there are millions of ways to get at values, and we could discuss the details/content more here if you want.For now I'll just address our process work, because that seems more important. I hope I didn't sound like a word whore here. It's more like where the words lead us, you know? In terms of outcomes. It seems there's enough evidence out now with ACT to show us a more effective and potent ways to language up values and committed action goals. But you need to start where you are, where the energy is and go from there. By all means. I think something that grabbed at me with your recent posts was I heard maybe you painting yourself into too tight of a corner. I guess what I was speaking to in part is this work is not about learning to feel BETTER but about learning to FEEL better. But you've been around ACT maybe longer than me, so you know this better than I do perhaps!Maybe it was because you said something earlier about having a calm life as a value...I don't know..But I think I see now you're just

looking at what your values are from a different starting place--- from suffering thoughts, longings, needs...so if that works for you, keep going!Any forward feeling movement should be celebrated, not suppressed here!Thanks for playing along...hope we can continue!warm regards,terry To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public >; ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 9:46 PM Subject: Re: Re: suicidal thoughts

No problem, Terry!I like this back and forth discussion about wording - I think it's important. Words are not so clear cut, IMHO, even though we aim for it. Sometimes I mix it up even if I've read a hundred times what values are...What I meant was: Some of the things we aim for in life are indeed not values: I.e. happiness, peace, joy, not having anxiety etc...I don't think a correct way to deal with the longing is saying to yourself: "I musn't want this - it's not a value" (not saying you're saying that Terry - just trying to explain my point..) One way is just to accept the longing as a longing and all the emotions associated with the longing. Another way is to go with the flow so to say and take a longing like "peace" or "joy" and see what behaviors would take you that way.Peace: going home from work on time, holding my

tongue at meetings sometimes...Joy: Being with the dog, talking to friends, going to parties...Then you can take it a step further and transform these activities into values... See what those behaviors have in common and see what value lies behind it...Taking care of myself Being a good and close friend...Makes sense?? (I'm really asking, Terry.))Warm greetingsHenrik Oh, Henrik, sorry..I might be completely off base here.. I do see younow are saying "building peace

into life"..that feels much more like avalue, an active doing, an ongoing process.Feel free to disregard if my cautionary notes don't apply!terryTo: "ACT_for_the_Public "<ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 3:57 PMSubject: Re: Re: suicidal thoughtsHi Bob and Henrik,Sorry you're having such discomfort now Bob. I can tell youdisspointments like this won't ever go away fully but practicing ACTdoes help me focus on other things and just takes the wind out of lotsof

the pain. People places and situations become more over time lessdramatic.Just what it is and not what my mind insists it is. And with that youbecome more effective and creative and dealing with what's so.I have a long way to go but just wanted to offer some hope. Keep diggingin the work with time and practice.One of the problems with death btw is we're just dead. We're not calm,we're not "not calm" either. We cease to have evaluative descriptivelanguage and cognition for whatever is going on when we're dead, so faras I understand. Unless you know something about death that I don't!Henrik...Not trying to pick on you but caught something here you maywant to look at:Feeling states like peace, calm, soothing are nice to want but verytricky to have as values. I say this only because I think Henrik I'veheard you mention this a couple of times..again, not

trying to pick onyou but it's been such a point of confusion in ACT land I think it'sworth a closer look.A value called "a calm life" feels like it's some place to arrive at, anoutcome where you're perpetually calm and not say (god forbid!)agitated. It's not a bad thing to want more calm, but I'm not sure calmas a feeling state is helpful wording for a value in ACT land.Maybe this is just a language thing again, maybe you're meaning it moreas an opening up to and not a place you are chasing after.For more clarity on this issue of values such as happiness, contentment,serenity, I don't think it gets much better than post fromthe professional list. Message #9136.Sure helped me a ton.Kind regards,terryTo: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 10:45 AMSubject: Re: Re: suicidal thoughtsThank you Bob,I'll chip in, and I think Maarten will answer more later...The thought you had that doesn't go away: "What's life for if not forexperiencing as much pleasure as possible?" is interesting I think. Ithink there could be a value hidden there. Thoughts that don't go awayusually have either a value behind them or an emotional pain that needsto be accepted and expressed as I see it.I think there's definitely a value there... Maybe it only needs to berephrased a little? Pleasure in your relationship with your

wife couldbe: having an open climate where you can openly talk about how moneyshould be spent, about your need to have an emergency fund, how theburden of economic responsibility could be shared more equally betweenyou and your wife? Long term - I mean. Maybe she's not in a position todo that right now, but maybe it's important for you to express theseconcerns even now. So that she can see what you need of her as well.These are just my guesses...And the peace you felt if you where hanging and everybody where crying:I think there's values there: Peace is important when you're alive too -not only when you imagine your death. How can you get more peace andcalm in your life now? Not easy short term, but long term - how can youstep by step build more peace into your life? Peace for me is reading inthe sun, being close to those I love... What is peace for you?Same goes for

soothing. Guessing: how can you fill your life with moresoothing activities? Soothing to you I mean. Soothing for me means:being with the dog, taking time off, dating, talking to people who canlisten... Soothing to you could be something different... What'ssoothing to you? How can you get more of that into you life? Smallbabysteps...Take care,Henrik> > > Hi Maarten and Henrik.> > Thanks for your replies and help.> > What happened was I gave my wife a large amount of money to use to> look> for work overseas. The main reason I handed over the money was I was I> felt guilty that I wasn't able to give a larger amount.> > She

went overseas with his brother and looked for a job but wasn't> successful. They're coming back this week.> > I asked if there was some money left and my told me that there is no> more left. Then I had the thought that I had lost a lot of money. My> wife and I don't have an emergency fund anymore. I had thoughts like,> "I> should not have given her the money." "Why the hell did I give her the> money? I could have just used that to pay her credit card bills and> then> helped her work here in our country."> > I, then got the feeling of depression. The familiar image of hanging> myself in my room came to me.> > I was able to use mindfulness breathing and other techniques. I'm now> feeling better but I might get this feeling again. I've having this> recurrent suicidal feeling since I was a kid.> > Maarten, suicidal thoughts

can be soothing sometimes. Sometimes i have> the image of me hanging by a rope and dead and feeling peace with my> wife and relatives crying over me.> > It is soothing in the short term but it does get stronger and gets> scarier sometimes.> > Henrik, it's great that you were able to cope with it by talking it> out> with people.> > For me the "losing" of the money did bring feelings shame, guilt and> anger. I also got the feeling of fear of needing money but not able to> have any. I also had the thought that money gave me security and that> I> shouldn't waste it. I also had the thought that I was stupid.> > I then also had the thought that I shouldn't have thought that I lost> my> money because I used for a good cause. My mind could be awful> sometimes!> > I thought about the strongest reasons for

living. The strongest reason> for me not to kill myself is that when I hung myself I might end up> paralyzed which is worse than being dead.> > I fought with my thought of suicide by telling myself that my values> are> what I'm living for. But my mind answered that life is about feeling> as> much pleasure as possible. I had thoughts like, "What's life for if> not> for experiencing as much pleasure as possible?" I'm not able to refute> this thought and feels reasonable and true.> > So that's what happened. Thanks for sharing your experiences to me and> helping me.> > Bob> > > > > > > > To: ACT_for_the_Public <ACT_for_the_Public >> Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 4:47 AM> Subject: Re: Re: suicidal thoughts> > > > > > After Maarten's wonderful post...> > > > I have been there too, and am still recovering from it. I don't mean> to> make it worse for you - as it has been going on for so long for me-> but> let me explain and clarify: I lost a lot of money several years ago,> but> I was not totally poor after the loss. I still had an apartment and> some> money left. But the loss which came very quick hit me like nothing> hurt> me before I think.> > > > Before I lost the money, I more or less

unconsciously used money as a> cushion. Money insulated me from having to need people - and the risk> of> abandonment and also from the very exposed position you're in when> you're dependent on keeping a job to pay your bills.> > > > I had to do a lot of emotional work that consisted of talk and talk> and> talk about the situation I was in and that helped a lot. I cried.> > > > I also had to change my life: Suddenly I had to go to different> grocery> stores to buy food, I had to take jobs that where not well paid etc...> The talking helped and step by step I uncovered that I associated the> loss of the money with shame as Maarten also experienced and also with> a> lot of early fearful memories of not being taken cared of when I was a> small kid. The money had taken care of me so to speak and now it

was> mostly gone.> > > > I've been dealing with the aftermaths of this for a long time, but> what> I'm working on now is no longer about the loss of money so much. Now> it's about me not trusting life, not trusting my friends,not trusting> myself. Before the loss, money covered up that distrust. Now it's out> in> the open. That's ultimately a good thing. Better to know the facts and> then work with that, than living a lie - that money was my savior -> which was my case.> > > > This was my story...> > > > If it is at all possible for you - would you like to write down some> more details for us as Maarten asked?> > When did this happen?> > What's the situation today?> > What have you been trying?> > > > Hope this helps.

> > Best> > Henrik> > > > > On 27 aug 2012 11:55 "Maarten" <m.aalbersegmail (DOT) com>> wrote:> > >> >> >> > I've been there... and I have been "fortunate" (double meaning> > intended...) with my friends, without whom I probably wouldn't be> > there anymore...> >> >> >> >> > For me at least, the biggest thing was not the loss of money itself,> > but the shame it triggered in me. Does that ring a bell? (I would> > have> > loved to add your name here, would you be willing to give us a name?> > doesn't have to be your official name, though...).> >> >> >>

>> > In ACT terms: "having money" is a goal, not a value, are you> > familiar> > with this distinction?> >> > So one very important way forward for me has been to remind myself> > of> > the values that I believed needed that money in order forme being> > able> > to express those values.> >> > it was very liberating for me to realize (again and again, because> > it's so easy to forget in our culture) that even at my poorest I> > still> > could make gestures of friendship (one of my values)...> >> >> >> >> > On a completely differ ent level: I have no clue of how much in> > danger> > you are to do the irreparable and definitive.> >> > If this danger seems big, please look for professional help,too, in> > addition to

reaching out here - which indeed is a wonderful> > gesture).> >> >> >> >> > Another thing: thinking suicidal thoughts was a way of soothing me,> > strange as this may sound for some.> >> > And precisely because they are soothing on the short term, they> > became> > stronger and stronger (and thus scarier and scarier...).> >> > So I had to find other ways of soothing me - and yes realizing that> > I> > could still "worktowards friendship" was one of the ways Isoothed> > me;in thought and... more importantlly still on the longer term, in> > action.> >> >> >> >> > I hope you can stay with us (and with people physically closer to> > you),> >> >> >> >> > Maarten> >>

>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > >> > > I have been having suicidal thoughts since losing a large amount> > > of> > > money. Please help. Any ACT techniques I can use? Please help.> > >> >> >> > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Thanks Terry, I do hope that this post is even vaguely interesting to some folks on the list...ACT and even more so RFT has at its aim a precise use of language that can predict and influence with precision. I couldn't agree more, and I'm truly fascinated by my own process of getting to know this better and better as time passes (hopefully... sometimes I think I get dumber as the years go by). Anyway - This process exists right along another process - that of opening up to emotions, memories, thoughts in order to live my life more fully. If the process of understanding more of RFT and ACT creates clarity, the process of opening up can - short term and for me - create another outcome. I'm talking about what happens to me at least when I say yes, accept and allow things that I've been doing my best to suppress before. Urges, longing, irrational and rational strivings mixed together erupt and creates confusion. Like a longing for a calm life. It may or may not be a value to want a calm life - but I think the longing is something to be held tenderly. How can I approach this longing in a way that is self-compassionate and patient? Can there be activities that I can add to my repertoire that can lead me in that direction? Doesn't matter if it's a value or not... What emotions and memories are associated with that longing? Even if it's more or less muddled, there may still be valuable things inside that. It did come up naturally, so I should respect it and open up to it in small steps. Thank you for your kind words. I'm happy to be a part of this list. Henrik Hey dear friend,Just giving you a hard time cause I've known you for a while and it'sgreat to have you share so fully here. Really great.Your sharing hascreated a huge opening for me..that recent one about finances..oh my,could i relate!Plus, I know you know my comments are not attacks and that is sorefreshing..thanks for that!Yeah, there are millions of ways to get at values, and we could discussthe details/content more here if you want.For now I'll just address our process work, because that seems moreimportant.I hope I didn't sound like a word whore here. It's more like where thewords lead us, you know? In terms of outcomes. It seems there'senoughevidence out now with ACT to show us a more effective and potentways to language up values and committed action goals. But you need tostart where you are, where the energy is and go from there. By allmeans.I think something that grabbed at me with your recent posts was I heardmaybe you painting yourself into too tight of a corner.I guess what Iwas speaking to in part is this work is not about learning to feelBETTER but about learning to FEEL better. But you've been around ACTmaybe longer than me, so you know this better than I do perhaps!Maybe it was because you said something earlier about having a calm lifeas a value...I don't know..But I think I see now you're just looking at what your values are from adifferent starting place--- from suffering thoughts, longings,needs...so if that works for you, keep going!Any forward feeling movement should be celebrated, not suppressed here!Thanks for playing along...hope we can continue!< br>warm regards,terryTo: "ACT_for_the_Public "<ACT_for_the_Public >; ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 9:46 PMSubject: Re: Re: suicidal thoughtsNo problem, Terry!I like this back and forth discussion about wording - I think it'simportant. Words are not so clear cut, IMHO, even though we aim for it.Sometimes I mix it up even if I've read a hundred times what valuesare...What I meant was:Some of the things we aim for in life are indeed not values: I.e.happiness, peace, joy, not having anxiety etc...I don't think a correct way to deal with the longing is saying toyourself: "I musn't want this - it's not a value" (not saying you'resaying that Terry - just trying to explain my point..) One way is justto accept the longing as a longing and all the emotions associated withthe longing.Another way is to go with the flow so to say and take a longing like"peace" or "joy" and see what behaviors would take you that way.Peace: going home from work on time, holding my tongue at meetingssometimes...Joy: Being with the dog, talking to friends, going to parties...Then you can take it a step further and transform these activities intovalues... See what those behaviors have in common and see what valuelies behind it...Taking care of myselfBeing a good and close friend...Makes sense?? (I'm really asking, Terry.))Warm greetingsHenrik> > > > > Oh, Henrik, sorry..I might be completely off base here.. I do see you> now are saying "building peace into life"..that feels much more like a> value, an active doing, an ongoing process.> > > > > Feel free to disregard if my cautionary notes don't apply!> > > > > terry> > > > > > To: "ACT_for_the_Public "> <ACT_for_the_Public >> Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 3:57 PM> Subject: Re: Re: suicidal thoughts> > > Hi Bob and Henrik,> > > > Sorry you're having such discomfort now Bob. I can tell you> disspointments like this won't ever go away fully but practicing ACT> does help me focus on other things and just takes the wind out of lots> of the pain. People places and situations become more over time less> dramatic.> > Just what it is and not what my mind insists it is. And with that you> become more effective and creative and dealing with what's so.> > I have a long way to go but just wanted to offer some hope. Keep> digging> in the work with time and practice.> > > > > One of the problems with death btw is we're just dead. We're not calm,> we're not "not calm" either. We cease to have evaluative descriptive> language and cognition for whatever is going on when we're dead, so> far> as I understand. Unless you know something about death that I don't!> > > > Henrik...Not trying to pick on you but caught something here you may> want to look at:> > > > Feeling states like peace, calm, soothing are nice to want but very> tricky to have as values. I say this only because I think Henrik I've> heard you mention this a couple of times..again, not trying to pick on> you but it's been such a point of confusion in ACT land I think it's> worth a closer look.> > > > A value called "a calm life" feels like it's some place to arrive at,> an> outcome where you're perpetually calm and not say (god forbid!)> agitated. It's not a bad thing to want more calm, but I'm not sure> calm> as a feeling state is helpful wording for a value in ACT land.> > Maybe this is just a language thing again, maybe you're meaning it> more> as an opening up to and not a place you are chasing after.> > For more clarity on this issue of values such as happiness,> contentment,> serenity, I don't think it gets much better than post> from> the professional list. Message #9136.> > Sure helped me a ton.> > > > > Kind regards,> > terry> > > > > > To: <ACT_for_the_Public >> Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 10:45 AM> Subject: Re: Re: suicidal thoughts> > > > Thank you Bob,> > I'll chip in, and I think Maarten will answer more later...> > > > > The thought you had that doesn't go away: "What's life for if not for> experiencing as much pleasure as possible?" is interesting I think. I> think there could be a value hidden there. Thoughts that don't go away> usually have either a value behind them or an emotional pain that> needs> to be accepted and expressed as I see it.> > > > > I think there's definitely a value there... Maybe it only needs to be> rephrased a little? Pleasure in your relationship with your wife could> be: having an open climate where you can openly talk about how money> should be spent, about your need to have an emergency fund, how the> burden of economic responsibility could be shared more equally between> you and your wife? Long term - I mean. Maybe she's not in a position> to> do that right now, but maybe it's important for you to express these> concerns even now. So that she can see what you need of her as well.> These are just my guesses...> > > > > And the peace you felt if you where hanging and everybody where> crying:> I think there's values there: Peace is important when you're alive too> -> not only when you imagine your death. How can you get more peace and> calm in your life now? Not easy short term, but long term - how can> you> step by step build more peace into your life? Peace for me is reading> in> the sun, being close to those I love... What is peace for you?> > > > > Same goes for soothing. Guessing: how can you fill your life with more> soothing activities? Soothing to you I mean. Soothing for me means:> being with the dog, taking time off, dating, talking to people who can> listen... Soothing to you could be something different... What's> soothing to you? How can you get more of that into you life? Small> babysteps...> > > > > Take care,> > Henrik> > > > > >> >> > Hi Maarten and Henrik.> >> > Thanks for your replies and help.> >> > What happened was I gave my wife a large amount of money to use to> > look> > for work overseas. The main reason I handed over the money was I was> > I> > felt guilty that I wasn't able to give a larger amount.> >> > She went overseas with his brother and looked for a job but wasn't> > successful. They're coming back this week.> >> > I asked if there was some money left and my told me that there is no> > more left. Then I had the thought that I had lost a lot of money. My> > wife and I don't have an emergency fund anymore. I had thoughts> > like,> > "I> > should not have given her the money." "Why the hell did I give her> > the> > money? I could have just used that to pay her credit card bills and> > then> > helped her work here in our country."> >> > I, then got the feeling of depression. The familiar image of hanging> > myself in my room came to me.> >> > I was able to use mindfulness breathing and other techniques. I'm> > now> > feeling better but I might get this feeling again. I've having this> > recurrent suicidal feeling since I was a kid.> >> > Maarten, suicidal thoughts can be soothing sometimes. Sometimes i> > have> > the image of me hanging by a rope and dead and feeling peace with my> > wife and relatives crying over me.> >> > It is soothing in the short term but it does get stronger and gets> > scarier sometimes.> >> > Henrik, it's great that you were able to cope with it by talking it> > out> > with people.> >> > For me the "losing" of the money did bring feelings shame, guilt and> > anger. I also got the feeling of fear of needing money but not able> > to> > have any. I also had the thought that money gave me security and> > that> > I> > shouldn't waste it. I also had the thought that I was stupid.> >> > I then also had the thought that I shouldn't have thought that I> > lost> > my> > money because I used for a good cause. My mind could be awful> > sometimes!> >> > I thought about the strongest reasons for living. The strongest> > reason> > for me not to kill myself is that when I hung myself I might end up> > paralyzed which is worse than being dead.> >> > I fought with my thought of suicide by telling myself that my values> > are> > what I'm living for. But my mind answered that life is about feeling> > as> > much pleasure as possible. I had thoughts like, "What's life for if> > not> > for experiencing as much pleasure as possible?" I'm not able to> > refute> > this thought and feels reasonable and true.> >> > So that's what happened. Thanks for sharing your experiences to me> > and> > helping me.> >> > Bob> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > To: ACT_for_the_Public <ACT_for_the_Public >> > Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 4:47 AM> > Subject: Re: Re: suicidal thoughts> >> >> >> >> >> > After Maarten's wonderful post...> >> >> >> > I have been there too, and am still recovering from it. I don't mean> > to> > make it worse for you - as it has been going on for so long for me-> > but> > let me explain and clarify: I lost a lot of money several years ago,> > but> > I was not totally poor after the loss. I still had an apartment and> > some> > money left. But the loss which came very quick hit me like nothing> > hurt> > me before I think.> >> >> >> > Before I lost the money, I more or less unconsciously used money as> > a> > cushion. Money insulated me from having to need people - and the> > risk> > of> > abandonment and also from the very exposed position you're in when> > you're dependent on keeping a job to pay your bills.> >> >> >> > I had to do a lot of emotional work that consisted of talk and talk> > and> > talk about the situation I was in and that helped a lot. I cried.> >> >> >> > I also had to change my life: Suddenly I had to go to different> > grocery> > stores to buy food, I had to take jobs that where not well paid> > etc...> > The talking helped and step by step I uncovered that I associated> > the> > loss of the money with shame as Maarten also experienced and also> > with> > a> > lot of early fearful memories of not being taken cared of when I was> > a> > small kid. The money had taken care of me so to speak and now it was> > mostly gone.> >> >> >> > I've been dealing with the aftermaths of this for a long time, but> > what> > I'm working on now is no longer about the loss of money so much. Now> > it's about me not trusting life, not trusting my friends,not> > trusting> > myself. Before the loss, money covered up that distrust. Now it's> > out> > in> > the open. That's ultimately a good thing. Better to know the facts> > and> > then work with that, than living a lie - that money was my savior -> > which was my case.> >> >> >> > This was my story...> >> >> >> > If it is at all possible for you - would you like to write down some> > more details for us as Maarten asked?> >> > When did this happen?> >> > What's the situation today?> >> > What have you been trying?> >> >> >> > Hope this helps. > >> > Best> >> > Henrik> >> >> >> >> > On 27 aug 2012 11:55 "Maarten" <m.aalbersegmail (DOT) com>> > wrote:> >> > >> > >> > >> > > I've been there... and I have been "fortunate" (double meaning> > > intended...) with my friends, without whom I probably wouldn't be> > > there anymore...> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > For me at least, the biggest thing was not the loss of money> > > itself,> > > but the shame it triggered in me. Does that ring a bell? (I would> > > have> > > loved to add your name here, would you be willing to give us a> > > name?> > > doesn't have to be your official name, though...).> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > In ACT terms: "having money" is a goal, not a value, are you> > > familiar> > > with this distinction?> > >> > > So one very important way forward for me has been to remind myself> > > of> > > the values that I believed needed that money in order forme being> > > able> > > to express those values.> > >> > > it was very liberating for me to realize (again and again, because> > > it's so easy to forget in our culture) that even at my poorest I> > > still> > > could make gestures of friendship (one of my values)...> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > On a completely differ ent level: I have no clue of how much in> > > danger> > > you are to do the irreparable and definitive.> > >> > > If this danger seems big, please look for professional help,too,> > > in> > > addition to reaching out here - which indeed is a wonderful> > > gesture).> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Another thing: thinking suicidal thoughts was a way of soothing> > > me,> > > strange as this may sound for some.> > >> > > And precisely because they are soothing on the short term, they> > > became> > > stronger and stronger (and thus scarier and scarier...).> > >> > > So I had to find other ways of soothing me - and yes realizing> > > that> > > I> > > could still "worktowards friendship" was one of the ways Isoothed> > > me;in thought and... more importantlly still on the longer term,> > > in> > > action.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > I hope you can stay with us (and with people physically closer to> > > you),> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Maarten> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > >> > > > I have been having suicidal thoughts since losing a large amount> > > > of> > > > money. Please help. Any ACT techniques I can use? Please help.> > > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Thank you so much, Lou. I really appreciate your replying to me with these resources. I'm feeling much better now after sharing with the people in group and getting your replies. It's great to know I'm not alone.I'm using a self help book that combines methods from ACT, DBT and CBT so I'm familiar with these methods you're referring to. Even though I'm using the methods in the self help book, I still got overwhelmed by my thoughts and feelings. So I decided to ask for help.I'll check out the sites you recommended a bit more. There's a whole lot of resources that I think I can use here. Thanks again,Bob To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 6:21 AM Subject: Re: suicidal thoughts

Hello Fellow Traveler,

I'd like to give you a couple of pearls that were given to me during those turbulent times. One...thinking about suicide will not kill you, taking action on those thoughts may (the difference is huge) and two, often we find ourselves in difficult situations that are not of our doing or out of our control, we can't change the situation but we have choices about how we respond, especially when we find ourselves in the suicidal darkness.

From my experience, I believe that the pointlessness felt during such times is a major contributor to the loss of motivation and even when it is possible to take action, it is full of lackluster because it lacks meaning. I learned that the sense of experiencing meaning is not a constant, it comes and goes and differs in intensity (impact).

You asked about practicals...strategies...well...I'm not a psychologist but I was fortunate to meet some wonderful, talented professionals who assisted me through that darkness, particularly my therapist who endured so much as a result of my disdain, yet he never gave up on me. A therapist is a good place to start.

So...within the moments of hopelessness when everything seems pointless and nothing means anything, I took solace in connecting with my body. Examples include dancing, meditation, having baths and showers, masturbating, juggling and bouncing a ball against the wall (just to name a few). Of course sleeping was a favourite but not functional 24-7.

Another thing to do is to work on 'distress tolerance' skills. A key element of those skills is to acknowledge (notice, label or identify) what is going on in your body, thoughts and emotions. This is easier said than done and it took a very long time for me to develop that skill and many different environments (contexts) to really get a grasp on remaining present (conscious) to the way I experienced life. The practice of becoming mindful and aware surely saved my life. That is the big picture long-term stuff though. For in the moment skill development, I'd like to point you towards a particular website that has life saving 'in the moment' strategies...it is the National Education Alliance for BPD (not to say you experience borderline personality of course but the site is great for understanding suicidal thinking)...

http://www.borderlinepersonalitydisorder.com/resources-news/media-library/conference-presentation-videos/

and....http://behavioraltech.org/resources/

I know that when in the moment, words are just words and almost everything seems empty but the fact remains, time will continue. You will sleep today and wake again tomorrow. That may seem pessimistic but the irony of the continuance of time is that nothing ever stays the same. If you stick it out, the darkness passes and things inevitably change. The most important skill is learning how to NOT GIVE UP.

I hope these resources are useful to you, the hours I spent poring over this information was life saving for me. I wish you consciousness during those dark moments. Take care of yourself.

With humble respect,

Lou

>

> I have been having suicidal thoughts since losing a large amount of money. Please help. Any ACT techniques I can use? Please help.

>

[Guest guest]

You're welcome Bob,

I'm pleased to hear that things have improved for you. What are you reading?

Sounds interesting...

Lou

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> > I have been having suicidal thoughts since losing a large amount of money.

Please help. Any ACT techniques I can use? Please help.

> >

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