Re: Experiment with this list/Defusion

July 27, 2012

Jo,This is not a criticism but when I do defusion I tend to leave out the "I, _____(fill your name here) part because the point of defusion is to create more wiggle room between theconceptualized self and self as context. And our names play into the self as content. So...more like "Having thought nothing gets me to Flow""There goes worry of having no absorbing interest"There goes judgement "nothing absorbs me""Fatigued and nervous".Nervous and Fatigued."Shervous and satigued" "Loser all around"LOSER ALL AROUND...Round and Round we

go!Hopelessly hoping...Oh, breath now...Oh, I'm still here...Oh. To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 5:28 PM Subject: Re: Experiment with this list

Hi Bruce

I felt really sad when I read your message and spent a bit of time reflecting you how it made me feel and what you were saying. I deal daily with what you feel and some days good some days not so good. So I thought I would try and share what I do to deal with my mind on this matter to see if it can be of use to you too.

Bruce I have broken down your message to show you your thoughts. I find doing this with my thoughts really helps me to see what my mind is telling me. I do this with my journaling and also any message I place onto this group. In looking at my thoughts and feelings this way I can then detach a little...almost step aside from them and start to really see which of the thoughts I am buying into, which ones I am completely fused with. In most cases I can clearly see from the thoughts when written like this why I am behaving and feeling and thinking the way I am.

â€¢I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "Nothing gets me into Flow"

â€¢I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "I have no absorbing interest"

â€¢I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "Nothing absorbs me"

â€¢I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "Nothing takes my mind off my anxiety and depression problem."

â€¢I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "I feel fatigued and nervous"

â€¢I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "I have tried just doing things and hoping interest will take over"

â€¢I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "it rarely happens."

â€¢I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "I'm baffled"

â€¢I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "I can't achieve this."

â€¢I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "I'm always evaluating myself"

â€¢I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "I am trying my best to carry on doing things."

â€¢I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "I'm pretty good at doing what I have to do to keep my life going."

â€¢I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "I've done very poorly in doing what I'd like to do to have the life I want."

â€¢I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "I've been disappointed"

â€¢I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "It seems to come naturally to many but eludes me completely."

â€¢I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "it's a major part of my problem"

â€¢I Bruce Carson I'm having the thought "when I have things to do, I feel easily overwhelmed."

If I was having all of the above thoughts and believe me I have had in differing periods of my life and still do from time to time. I would find it very difficult also to get absorbed and lost in flow with a hobby/interest/passion. I would have already convinced myself it would not be possible, so I would try but that would be all I could do for my mind will have told me there is no chance of me ever being or feeling like others.

There are a lot of really powerful thoughts in this mix and if you're buying into any one of them then I can totally see why you are struggling to achieve what you want for your life.

One of the thoughts that stood out for me was the one when you said "I'm always evaluating myself". Evaluation can be good or it can be bad, the question is what are you evaluating yourself against, are your evaluation yourself in a self critical way or with compassion and kindness. I would hazard a guess that you are setting pretty high standards for yourself and therefore this leads to a lot self critical analysis and evaluation. We all have a tendency to do this, I am very much like that and I have to watch out for it constantly.

I too admire people who have this absorbing passion for their interests. I would love to be like that all the time, to completely distract me. But that's not real, I have experienced flow with individual hobbies, but not all the time it's not always constant. I have talked myself out of hobbies I was talented at because I felt this lack of flow meant I wasn't that interested. When in actual fact it was a mood dip, fatigue, pain, depression, stress or anxiety and any other overwhelming emotions or life event that can disrupt the balance in us humans. It's only many years later and with a bit more knowledge and understanding that I have realised we don't and won't always feel 100% when doing something we are interested in. In fact we can have quite a few 20% days and that's okay too. I do photography and there isn't a month that doesn't go by that I question this hobby, this year I was going to sell everything because I was so fed up, overwhelmed

and restricted by CPS every time I attempted to do photography. But when I get a good photo, which isn't all the time and I get absorbed in the post production of it and see it come to life I think okay all those really bad 20% days were worth that one good photo and I am not ready to give up on it. I take this approach with every one of my interests...if I didn't do that I wouldn't do any of them. It's okay not to be absorbed all the time.

I can be extremely critical of my hobbies and talents and if I wasn't careful I could easily think myself out of all of them, but what good would that do me. So I have had to work really hard this year in listening mindfully to what my mind has being saying because I don't want to stop just because it wants me to. I only want to stop because I choose to, as yet I still choose to do photography, as and when I can within the limits of my body.

Take a good look at your thoughts Bruce, identify the ones you're really buying into and the ones you're truly fused with and then do some diffusion work on them. That would be a good first step to approaching this present dilemma. The next would be finding a way to accept that you have these thoughts and feelings, but to then let them go and still proceed in your valued direction and achieve what you want in your life. Definitely not easy its hard work but its achievable. The main thing I would suggest is to approach this gently, patiently and with as much self kindness and self compassion you can muster within you.

Remember this list of thoughts above is not you, there just thoughts, you are far greater than all of them.

With loving kindness

Jo

>

> > Hi all,

> >

> > This is my observation - I haven't really done a good control

> > experiment on this.

> >

> > But, I think this list has been really bad for me. A lot of it may

> > be that it's a group of depressed anxious or embittered people. And

> > that might not be a good thing. Also it may be that the list is

> > dominated by just a few people and some of these people have an axe

> > to grind. Or they feel anger and embitterment and what to spread

> > that anger and embitterment to others.

> >

> > I would be very curious to see a control study of the efficacy of

> > participating in this list.

> >

> > In some ways I'm puzzled. Studies have shown efficacy of ACT and

> > ACT is one of the evidence based therapies. So it may be that ACT

> > would be a big help too me if I just stick to the other ACT

> > resources and exclude this list. And I will now experiment with that.

> >

> > My observation now is that REBT for me is much more efficacious.

> > Now there might be some things I can take from ACT to improve REBT.

> > The diffusion. The mindfulness too. But I think I have to find

> > better mindful exercises for me. I'm very ADHD and the sitting and

> > breathing exercises are not all that good for me. Vigorous exercise

> > helps me become more mindful. I do yoga but I prefer the more

> > vigorous flow types than the types that hold ananas. When I go

> > about my business I practice mindfulness. For example while

> > driving. Most people are not mindful when driving and race up to

> > stop at traffic lights instead of trying to go with flow and maybe

> > time the lights.

> >

> > I'm curious about the studies and if there is anything about what

> > kind of people benefit from ACT and from CBT and REBT. Maybe there

> > something about me where REBT works better.

> >

> > And I found positive psychology to be a wonderful resource. It is

> > such a big and active area in psychology right now. Everything from

> > the flow work by Csikszentmihaly to Selgiman's Posttraumatic growth

> > to Fredrickson's Broaden-and-Build, is all such good stuff.

> >

> > One thing about flow. Albert Ellis often talked about having an

> > absorbing interest. Csikszentmihaly work on flow is very similar to

> > Ellis idea of absorbing interest. I have always thought of ACT's

> > values and committed actions as similar to this. But now I think

> > there are some differences. The flow or absorbing interest is

> > really something outside of yourself. It may reflect your values,

> > but I think being absorbed in something that is more outside of

> > yourself may give you something different than the ACT values and

> > committed actions. When I read you guys' stuff on this, it just

> > seems to self-absorbed or something and sometimes creepy. For this

> > flow stuff, think more outside of yourself - maybe think something

> > more altruistic - a contribution coming from you to the world

> > outside of yourself. Check out Csikszentmihayly's works on flow.

> >

> > But I'm really grateful to the professionals on this list and will

> > experiment with ACT resources excluding this list and I love REBT

> > and positive psychology and so of course do a lot with that. I'll

> > drop back in next year sometime to see how this list is going and

> > see if the same people still dominate the list or if it changes.

> >

> > Cheers!

> >

>

July 28, 2012

Thank you Theresa for sharing your thoughts and feelings on how you approach

defusion. I believe there is no right way or a wrong way to noticing your

thoughts and doing defusion as we are all individually different and as such we

will learn individually what works for us and what does not. I think its

important for people to find a way to get noticing and so long as they are, they

can then start looking at how they want to create wriggle room/space. There is

no one individual exercise to stick too, there are many to choose from in the

vast array of information from ACT books, groups and web sites out there.

The main objective is to just start mindfully noticing so that you can then look

to defusion techniques in tackling the thoughts your buying into.

I appreciate what your are saying and for taking the time in describing your own

approach to mindfully noticing your own thoughts.

I would welcome other members in the group to discuss how they approach

mindfullness of their thoughts and what defusion techniques they have found to

be useful to them, I think this would be of great help to Bruce, myself and to

many many more people within this list, especailly those new to ACT.

With loving kindness

Jo

> >

> > > Hi all,

> > >

> > > This is my observation - I haven't really done a good control

> > > experiment on this.

> > >

> > > But, I think this list has been really bad for me. A lot of it may

> > > be that it's a group of depressed anxious or embittered people. And

> > > that might not be a good thing. Also it may be that the list is

> > > dominated by just a few people and some of these people have an axe

> > > to grind. Or they feel anger and embitterment and what to spread

> > > that anger and embitterment to others.

> > >

> > > I would be very curious to see a control study of the efficacy of

> > > participating in this list.

> > >

> > > In some ways I'm puzzled. Studies have shown efficacy of ACT and

> > > ACT is one of the evidence based therapies. So it may be that ACT

> > > would be a big help too me if I just stick to the other ACT

> > > resources and exclude this list. And I will now experiment with that.

> > >

> > > My observation now is that REBT for me is much more efficacious.

> > > Now there might be some things I can take from ACT to improve REBT.

> > > The diffusion. The mindfulness too. But I think I have to find

> > > better mindful exercises for me. I'm very ADHD and the sitting and

> > > breathing exercises are not all that good for me. Vigorous exercise

> > > helps me become more mindful. I do yoga but I prefer the more

> > > vigorous flow types than the types that hold ananas. When I go

> > > about my business I practice mindfulness. For example while

> > > driving. Most people are not mindful when driving and race up to

> > > stop at traffic lights instead of trying to go with flow and maybe

> > > time the lights.

> > >

> > > I'm curious about the studies and if there is anything about what

> > > kind of people benefit from ACT and from CBT and REBT. Maybe there

> > > something about me where REBT works better.

> > >

> > > And I found positive psychology to be a wonderful resource. It is

> > > such a big and active area in psychology right now. Everything from

> > > the flow work by Csikszentmihaly to Selgiman's Posttraumatic growth

> > > to Fredrickson's Broaden-and-Build, is all such good stuff.

> > >

> > > One thing about flow. Albert Ellis often talked about having an

> > > absorbing interest. Csikszentmihaly work on flow is very similar to

> > > Ellis idea of absorbing interest. I have always thought of ACT's

> > > values and committed actions as similar to this. But now I think

> > > there are some differences. The flow or absorbing interest is

> > > really something outside of yourself. It may reflect your values,

> > > but I think being absorbed in something that is more outside of

> > > yourself may give you something different than the ACT values and

> > > committed actions. When I read you guys' stuff on this, it just

> > > seems to self-absorbed or something and sometimes creepy. For this

> > > flow stuff, think more outside of yourself - maybe think something

> > > more altruistic - a contribution coming from you to the world

> > > outside of yourself. Check out Csikszentmihayly's works on flow.

> > >

> > > But I'm really grateful to the professionals on this list and will

> > > experiment with ACT resources excluding this list and I love REBT

> > > and positive psychology and so of course do a lot with that. I'll

> > > drop back in next year sometime to see how this list is going and

> > > see if the same people still dominate the list or if it changes.

> > >

> > > Cheers!

> > >

> >

>

July 28, 2012

Yeah, no right/wrong way just what works best in terms of purpose. Defusion is such a creative process..there a gazillion ways to practice it. To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2012 4:09 PM Subject: Re: Experiment with this list/Defusion

Thank you Theresa for sharing your thoughts and feelings on how you approach defusion. I believe there is no right way or a wrong way to noticing your thoughts and doing defusion as we are all individually different and as such we will learn individually what works for us and what does not. I think its important for people to find a way to get noticing and so long as they are, they can then start looking at how they want to create wriggle room/space. There is no one individual exercise to stick too, there are many to choose from in the vast array of information from ACT books, groups and web sites out there.

The main objective is to just start mindfully noticing so that you can then look to defusion techniques in tackling the thoughts your buying into.

I appreciate what your are saying and for taking the time in describing your own approach to mindfully noticing your own thoughts.

I would welcome other members in the group to discuss how they approach mindfullness of their thoughts and what defusion techniques they have found to be useful to them, I think this would be of great help to Bruce, myself and to many many more people within this list, especailly those new to ACT.