Guest guest Posted October 24, 2010 Report Share Posted October 24, 2010 List mates, I agree with Lori. There is no one better medically than Dr. G. And Sue, why would you bash him on his own list not having ever been a patient? It is okay for us in the family to voice concerns, but it is not okay for someone else with no love, knowledge or experience to say anything about this man who has devoted his life to helping so many. Dr. Goldberg saved my kid and never would have made it without him. Yes, we sometimes argue but I would rather have that than someone who doesn't care or have any passion to help my kid. Sometimes I think Dr. (although wonderful) is too nice. He doesn't make parents do what is best for their children and demand accountability. You would never get away with that with Dr. G. He never gives a refill if you don't do your part of the bargain. And I do understand Dr. Goldberg's moments of raising his voice. He cares deeply about helping our kids and has given up so much of his own life to help ours. I know he raises his voice because some parents don't understand the importance of following his instructions to help their children. These parents do the diet half assed and do not even eliminate the biggest trigger for all our kids, dairy. Parents who do not follow the diet are truly hurting their children and It really isn't that hard to do. We all slip up at times, but you need to do what is best for your child overall. Other parents give up on the program because they expect immediate results, or it might be too hard to give pills or do the blood tests that keep their children safe. These parents don't realize that the first year on the program is to heal their children's immune systems and the second is for teaching and rehabilitation. But it doesn't stop there. This is not an instant cure!!! There is no magic bullet. Even XMRV will probably be just another tool in the toolbox to help kids. I don't know how many times I explained to parents that kids will not immediately start talking or communicating. It takes three years for a " normal " child to learn language and the kids often pick up where they stopped learning. All children must go through the same developmental steps. Two year old behavior at age five looks very different and weird. Yet, to get better, that five year old must do two year old things. This five year old is improving even though it doesn't' appear that way sometimes. And some parents do not do the rehabilitation piece at all but expect the school or ABA providers to do it for them. Although there are many there to help, NO ONE WILL DO THIS FOR YOU!!! We worked morning until night (untold hours) to help learn what he missed when he was ill. I never left this in other people's hands and I took the lead on what he needed to learn. Hiring someone to do ABA is not effective unless the family knows how to use these principles in the daily routine. And the person doing the ABA has to be doing it correctly. And once a child can learn, you need to move to more natural methods of teaching. We did it all ourselves and only had one other therapist ( I trained) besides family members for about 9 hours a week. And USE WHAT THEY LOVE TO TEACH THEM. I have never had arguments with another human being like I have had with Dr. Goldberg But I don't respect anyone more than him. His passion over the years is what have helped so many and I will go to the mat defending him. I hope my post isn't what started this discussion. If so, I must apologize to Dr. G. And thank you for all you've done to help so many. I do ache for the parents who have kids whose immune systems are just too compromised to see the kind of results has but everyone can improve. We must get this done. There are too many kids not getting better who could lead productive lives. And I must apologize for my rant. Maybe is right and I am just too " STRIDENT. " My autistic kid had to explain this vocabulary and instruct me on how to behave in public. That wouldn't have happened without all of Dr. G's dedication over the years. Best, Marcia 2.3. </message/44354;_ylc=X3oDMTJxbWhvZDVzBF9TA zk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzEyODk0MARncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNjE2MTYEbXNnSWQDNDQzNTQEc2VjA 2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTI4NzkxMjA3Mw--> Re: diet Posted by: " Lori " <mailto:lbharris@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20diet> lbharris@... <loribharris2003> loribharris2003 Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:47 pm (PDT) To those on the list that do not know who Dr. G is, or have stopped his treatment for your child...what are you doing on this list???? This list is a forum for patients or parents of patients of Dr. G (and more recently Dr. and Kathy on) to discuss our progress, our frustrations, our treatments, our successes, our experiences and so on, with one another. This is NOT a place to bash Dr. G!!! This is a man, a doctor, who has completely dedicated his life to helping our kids. Any time he " yells " at patients, or rather their parents, he is doing it for the patient's own good. Dr. G knows how important the diet is in the overall health of his patients. It is too easy for parents to take the easy route and give in, or not listen to his advice, and let their kids have the very things that Dr. Goldberg knows is going to cause inflammatory reactions in many of his patients. He does this because he cares and he knows that the child can be doing better, can be healthier, can be closer to recovery. He needs to be their voice and the voice of the parent's conscience. We all need a wakeup call sometimes because this road is hard. We have been a patient of Dr. G's for 8 years and not once, even closely has Dr. Goldberg ever yelled at me or raised his voice. On the contrary, I feel so indebted to him for listening to me, for believing me when I KNEW my son didn't have " Autism " , and for saving my son from a life of isolation, poor health and a bleak future that I feel compelled to want to please him and NEVER want to disappoint him. He has given me the son that I was afraid I was losing, the one I was told to " accept that he would always be strange and weird " . No Dr. G is not God, nor does he have a " God complex " . He is however our conscience and the voice of our children - his patients, pushing us all to do better for the sake of our children's health and recovery. If you are not going to listen to him, then you are better off leaving his practice. His mission is not to make friends, but instead to make us parents listen to his experience and save our children. Too many folks take what part of his advice they want and substitute in what other protocols they feel they want to work with as well. It doesn't work that way. You have to give it and Dr. G your all if you want to stop the neuroinflammation and therefore the " Autistic symptoms " . You have to surrender to all that he says and do your best to make it work. Only then will you see real change in your child, their labs, their behavior and their future. If you want to talk poorly of Dr. G, do it off list, in private, because the people that are here for the right reason do NOT want to hear it! Lori Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2010 Report Share Posted October 24, 2010 Beautifully said, Marcia! I echo your sentiments exactly. Dr. Goldberg is the MOST passionate man about healing our kids. If that extends to reading me the " riot act " every once in a while, I'll face the music gladly. God Bless him and all of you. Robyn From: and Marcia Hinds <hindssite@...> Subject: There is no one better than Dr Goldberg lbharris@..., Date: Sunday, October 24, 2010, 7:29 AM Â List mates, I agree with Lori. There is no one better medically than Dr. G. And Sue, why would you bash him on his own list not having ever been a patient? It is okay for us in the family to voice concerns, but it is not okay for someone else with no love, knowledge or experience to say anything about this man who has devoted his life to helping so many. Dr. Goldberg saved my kid and never would have made it without him. Yes, we sometimes argue but I would rather have that than someone who doesn't care or have any passion to help my kid. Sometimes I think Dr. (although wonderful) is too nice. He doesn't make parents do what is best for their children and demand accountability. You would never get away with that with Dr. G. He never gives a refill if you don't do your part of the bargain. And I do understand Dr. Goldberg's moments of raising his voice. He cares deeply about helping our kids and has given up so much of his own life to help ours. I know he raises his voice because some parents don't understand the importance of following his instructions to help their children. These parents do the diet half assed and do not even eliminate the biggest trigger for all our kids, dairy. Parents who do not follow the diet are truly hurting their children and It really isn't that hard to do. We all slip up at times, but you need to do what is best for your child overall. Other parents give up on the program because they expect immediate results, or it might be too hard to give pills or do the blood tests that keep their children safe. These parents don't realize that the first year on the program is to heal their children's immune systems and the second is for teaching and rehabilitation. But it doesn't stop there. This is not an instant cure!!! There is no magic bullet. Even XMRV will probably be just another tool in the toolbox to help kids. I don't know how many times I explained to parents that kids will not immediately start talking or communicating. It takes three years for a " normal " child to learn language and the kids often pick up where they stopped learning. All children must go through the same developmental steps. Two year old behavior at age five looks very different and weird. Yet, to get better, that five year old must do two year old things. This five year old is improving even though it doesn't' appear that way sometimes. And some parents do not do the rehabilitation piece at all but expect the school or ABA providers to do it for them. Although there are many there to help, NO ONE WILL DO THIS FOR YOU!!! We worked morning until night (untold hours) to help learn what he missed when he was ill. I never left this in other people's hands and I took the lead on what he needed to learn. Hiring someone to do ABA is not effective unless the family knows how to use these principles in the daily routine. And the person doing the ABA has to be doing it correctly. And once a child can learn, you need to move to more natural methods of teaching. We did it all ourselves and only had one other therapist ( I trained) besides family members for about 9 hours a week. And USE WHAT THEY LOVE TO TEACH THEM. I have never had arguments with another human being like I have had with Dr. Goldberg But I don't respect anyone more than him. His passion over the years is what have helped so many and I will go to the mat defending him. I hope my post isn't what started this discussion. If so, I must apologize to Dr. G. And thank you for all you've done to help so many. I do ache for the parents who have kids whose immune systems are just too compromised to see the kind of results has but everyone can improve. We must get this done. There are too many kids not getting better who could lead productive lives. And I must apologize for my rant. Maybe is right and I am just too " STRIDENT. " My autistic kid had to explain this vocabulary and instruct me on how to behave in public. That wouldn't have happened without all of Dr. G's dedication over the years. Best, Marcia 2.3. </message/44354;_ylc=X3oDMTJxbWhvZDVzBF9TA zk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzEyODk0MARncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNjE2MTYEbXNnSWQDNDQzNTQEc2VjA 2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTI4NzkxMjA3Mw--> Re: diet Posted by: " Lori " <mailto:lbharris@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20diet> lbharris@... <loribharris2003> loribharris2003 Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:47 pm (PDT) To those on the list that do not know who Dr. G is, or have stopped his treatment for your child...what are you doing on this list???? This list is a forum for patients or parents of patients of Dr. G (and more recently Dr. and Kathy on) to discuss our progress, our frustrations, our treatments, our successes, our experiences and so on, with one another. This is NOT a place to bash Dr. G!!! This is a man, a doctor, who has completely dedicated his life to helping our kids. Any time he " yells " at patients, or rather their parents, he is doing it for the patient's own good. Dr. G knows how important the diet is in the overall health of his patients. It is too easy for parents to take the easy route and give in, or not listen to his advice, and let their kids have the very things that Dr. Goldberg knows is going to cause inflammatory reactions in many of his patients. He does this because he cares and he knows that the child can be doing better, can be healthier, can be closer to recovery. He needs to be their voice and the voice of the parent's conscience. We all need a wakeup call sometimes because this road is hard. We have been a patient of Dr. G's for 8 years and not once, even closely has Dr. Goldberg ever yelled at me or raised his voice. On the contrary, I feel so indebted to him for listening to me, for believing me when I KNEW my son didn't have " Autism " , and for saving my son from a life of isolation, poor health and a bleak future that I feel compelled to want to please him and NEVER want to disappoint him. He has given me the son that I was afraid I was losing, the one I was told to " accept that he would always be strange and weird " . No Dr. G is not God, nor does he have a " God complex " . He is however our conscience and the voice of our children - his patients, pushing us all to do better for the sake of our children's health and recovery. If you are not going to listen to him, then you are better off leaving his practice. His mission is not to make friends, but instead to make us parents listen to his experience and save our children. Too many folks take what part of his advice they want and substitute in what other protocols they feel they want to work with as well. It doesn't work that way. You have to give it and Dr. G your all if you want to stop the neuroinflammation and therefore the " Autistic symptoms " . You have to surrender to all that he says and do your best to make it work. Only then will you see real change in your child, their labs, their behavior and their future. If you want to talk poorly of Dr. G, do it off list, in private, because the people that are here for the right reason do NOT want to hear it! Lori Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2010 Report Share Posted October 24, 2010 Well said Marcia! I think you used " yell " to answer my question as a figure of speech! Dr. Goldberg has never " yelled " at us, he is passionate about healing our kids and he knows when we're not being strict with the diet, but it's because he truly cares!!! I wish I knew the amount of people on this list that are here just to BASH or BADMOUTH Dr. Goldberg. I will always be eternally grateful to Dr. Goldberg for caring enough to treat my children. THANK GOD we found him almost 8 years ago!!! Thank you for your replies and advice Marcia! Argie On Oct 24, 2010, at 7:29 AM, and Marcia Hinds wrote: > List mates, > > I agree with Lori. There is no one better medically than Dr. G. And > Sue, > why would you bash him on his own list not having ever been a > patient? It > is okay for us in the family to voice concerns, but it is not okay for > someone else with no love, knowledge or experience to say anything > about ! > > this man who has devoted his life to helping so many. > > Dr. Goldberg saved my kid and never would have made it without > him. > Yes, we sometimes argue but I would rather have that than someone who > doesn't care or have any passion to help my kid. Sometimes I think Dr. > (although wonderful) is too nice. He doesn't make parents do > what > is best for their children and demand accountability. You would > never get > away with that with Dr. G. He never gives a refill if you don't do > your > part of the bargain. > > And I do understand Dr. Goldberg's moments of raising his voice. He > cares > deeply about helping our kids and has given up so much of his own > life to > help ours. I know he raises his voice because some parents don't > understand > the importance of following his instructions to help their children. > These > parents do the diet half assed and do not even eliminate the biggest > trigger > for all our kids, dairy. Parents who do not follow the diet are truly > hurting their children and It really isn't that hard to do. We all > slip up > at times, but you need to do what is best for your child overall. > Other > parents give up on the program because they expect immediate > results, or it > might be too hard to give pills or do the blood tests that keep their > children safe. These parents don't realize that the first year on the > program is to heal their children's immune systems and the second is > for > teaching and rehabilitation. But it doesn't stop there. This is not an > instant cure!!! There is no magic bullet. Even XMRV will probably be > just > another tool in the toolbox to help kids. > > I don't know how many times I explained to parents that kids will not > immediately start talking or communicating. It takes three years for a > " normal " child to learn language and the kids often pick up where they > stopped learning. All children must go through the same developmental > steps. Two year old behavior at age five looks very different and > weird. > Yet, to get better, that five year old must do two year old things. > This > five year old is improving even though it doesn't' appear that way > sometimes. > > And some parents do not do the rehabilitation piece at all but > expect the > school or ABA providers to do it for them. Although there are many > there to > help, NO ONE WILL DO THIS FOR YOU!!! We worked morning until night > (untold > hours) to help learn what he missed when he was ill. I never left > this in other people's hands and I took the lead on what he needed > to learn. > Hiring someone to do ABA is not effective unless the family knows > how to use > these principles in the daily routine. And the person doing the ABA > has to > be doing it correctly. And once a child can learn, you need to move > to more > natural methods of teaching. We did it all ourselves and only had > one other > therapist ( I trained) besides family members for about 9 hours a > week. > And USE WHAT THEY LOVE TO TEACH THEM. > > I have never had arguments with another human being like I have had > with Dr. > Goldberg But I don't respect anyone more than him. His passion over > the > years is what have helped so many and I will go to the mat defending > him. I > hope my post isn't what started this discussion. If so, I must > apologize to > Dr. G. And thank you for all you've done to help so many. I do ache > for > the parents who have kids whose immune systems are just too > compromised to > see the kind of results has but everyone can improve. We must > get this > done. There are too many kids not getting better who could lead > productive > lives. And I must apologize for my rant. Maybe is right and I > am just > too " STRIDENT. " > > My autistic kid had to explain this vocabulary and instruct me on > how to > behave in public. That wouldn't have happened without all of Dr. G's > dedication over the years. > > Best, > > Marcia > > 2.3. > > </message/44354;_ylc=X3oDMTJxbWhvZDVzBF9TA > zk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzEyODk0MARncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNjE2MTYEbXNnSWQDNDQzNTQEc2VjA > 2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTI4NzkxMjA3Mw--> Re: diet > > Posted by: " Lori " > <mailto:lbharris@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20diet> lbharris@... > <loribharris2003> loribharris2003 > > Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:47 pm (PDT) > > To those on the list that do not know who Dr. G is, or have stopped > his > treatment for your child...what are you doing on this list???? > > This list is a forum for patients or parents of patients of Dr. G > (and more > recently Dr. and Kathy on) to discuss our progress, our > frustrations, our treatments, our successes, our experiences and so > on, with > one another. > > This is NOT a place to bash Dr. G!!! > > This is a man, a doctor, who has completely dedicated his life to > helping > our kids. Any time he " yells " at patients, or rather their parents, > he is > doing it for the patient's own good. Dr. G knows how important the > diet is > in the overall health of his patients. It is too easy for parents to > take > the easy route and give in, or not listen to his advice, and let > their kids > have the very things that Dr. Goldberg knows is going to cause > inflammatory > reactions in many of his patients. He does this because he cares and > he > knows that the child can be doing better, can be healthier, can be > closer to > recovery. He needs to be their voice and the voice of the parent's > conscience. > > We all need a wakeup call sometimes because this road is hard. > > We have been a patient of Dr. G's for 8 years and not once, even > closely has > Dr. Goldberg ever yelled at me or raised his voice. On the contrary, > I feel > so indebted to him for listening to me, for believing me when I KNEW > my son > didn't have " Autism " , and for saving my son from a life of > isolation, poor > health and a bleak future that I feel compelled to want to please > him and > NEVER want to disappoint him. He has given me the son that I was > afraid I > was losing, the one I was told to " accept that he would always be > strange > and weird " . No Dr. G is not God, nor does he have a " God complex " . > He is > however our conscience and the voice of our children - his patients, > pushing > us all to do better for the sake of our children's health and > recovery. > > If you are not going to listen to him, then you are better off > leaving his > practice. His mission is not to make friends, but instead to make us > parents listen to his experience and save our children. Too many > folks take > what part of his advice they want and substitute in what other > protocols > they feel they want to work with as well. It doesn't work that way. > You > have to give it and Dr. G your all if you want to stop the > neuroinflammation > and therefore the " Autistic symptoms " . You have to surrender to all > that he > says and do your best to make it work. Only then will you see real > change > in your child, their labs, their behavior and their future. > > If you want to talk poorly of Dr. G, do it off list, in private, > because the > people that are here for the right reason do NOT want to hear it! > > Lori > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2010 Report Share Posted October 24, 2010 He treats many moms as well...me, for instance. Last time we saw him, my eosoniphils were thru the roof and he told me it was just as important to monitor my diet as the diet of my boys. He, of course, was totally right. Sometimes we need a firm reminder because this does get complicated and overwhelming. He wouldn't do it if he didn't care, and we love him for that! All the best, Robyn > List mates, > > I agree with Lori. There is no one better medically than Dr. G. And > Sue, > why would you bash him on his own list not having ever been a > patient? It > is okay for us in the family to voice concerns, but it is not okay for > someone else with no love, knowledge or experience to say anything > about ! > > this man who has devoted his life to helping so many. > > Dr. Goldberg saved my kid and never would have made it without > him. > Yes, we sometimes argue but I would rather have that than someone who > doesn't care or have any passion to help my kid. Sometimes I think Dr. > (although wonderful) is too nice. He doesn't make parents do > what > is best for their children and demand accountability. You would > never get > away with that with Dr. G. He never gives a refill if you don't do > your > part of the bargain. > > And I do understand Dr. Goldberg's moments of raising his voice. He > cares > deeply about helping our kids and has given up so much of his own > life to > help ours. I know he raises his voice because some parents don't > understand > the importance of following his instructions to help their children. > These > parents do the diet half assed and do not even eliminate the biggest > trigger > for all our kids, dairy. Parents who do not follow the diet are truly > hurting their children and It really isn't that hard to do. We all > slip up > at times, but you need to do what is best for your child overall. > Other > parents give up on the program because they expect immediate > results, or it > might be too hard to give pills or do the blood tests that keep their > children safe. These parents don't realize that the first year on the > program is to heal their children's immune systems and the second is > for > teaching and rehabilitation. But it doesn't stop there. This is not an > instant cure!!! There is no magic bullet. Even XMRV will probably be > just > another tool in the toolbox to help kids. > > I don't know how many times I explained to parents that kids will not > immediately start talking or communicating. It takes three years for a > " normal " child to learn language and the kids often pick up where they > stopped learning. All children must go through the same developmental > steps. Two year old behavior at age five looks very different and > weird. > Yet, to get better, that five year old must do two year old things. > This > five year old is improving even though it doesn't' appear that way > sometimes. > > And some parents do not do the rehabilitation piece at all but > expect the > school or ABA providers to do it for them. Although there are many > there to > help, NO ONE WILL DO THIS FOR YOU!!! We worked morning until night > (untold > hours) to help learn what he missed when he was ill. I never left > this in other people's hands and I took the lead on what he needed > to learn. > Hiring someone to do ABA is not effective unless the family knows > how to use > these principles in the daily routine. And the person doing the ABA > has to > be doing it correctly. And once a child can learn, you need to move > to more > natural methods of teaching. We did it all ourselves and only had > one other > therapist ( I trained) besides family members for about 9 hours a > week. > And USE WHAT THEY LOVE TO TEACH THEM. > > I have never had arguments with another human being like I have had > with Dr. > Goldberg But I don't respect anyone more than him. His passion over > the > years is what have helped so many and I will go to the mat defending > him. I > hope my post isn't what started this discussion. If so, I must > apologize to > Dr. G. And thank you for all you've done to help so many. I do ache > for > the parents who have kids whose immune systems are just too > compromised to > see the kind of results has but everyone can improve. We must > get this > done. There are too many kids not getting better who could lead > productive > lives. And I must apologize for my rant. Maybe is right and I > am just > too " STRIDENT. " > > My autistic kid had to explain this vocabulary and instruct me on > how to > behave in public. That wouldn't have happened without all of Dr. G's > dedication over the years. > > Best, > > Marcia > > 2.3. > > </message/44354;_ylc=X3oDMTJxbWhvZDVzBF9TA > zk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzEyODk0MARncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNjE2MTYEbXNnSWQDNDQzNTQEc2VjA > 2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTI4NzkxMjA3Mw--> Re: diet > > Posted by: " Lori " > <mailto:lbharris@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20diet> lbharris@... > <loribharris2003> loribharris2003 > > Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:47 pm (PDT) > > To those on the list that do not know who Dr. G is, or have stopped > his > treatment for your child...what are you doing on this list???? > > This list is a forum for patients or parents of patients of Dr. G > (and more > recently Dr. and Kathy on) to discuss our progress, our > frustrations, our treatments, our successes, our experiences and so > on, with > one another. > > This is NOT a place to bash Dr. G!!! > > This is a man, a doctor, who has completely dedicated his life to > helping > our kids. Any time he " yells " at patients, or rather their parents, > he is > doing it for the patient's own good. Dr. G knows how important the > diet is > in the overall health of his patients. It is too easy for parents to > take > the easy route and give in, or not listen to his advice, and let > their kids > have the very things that Dr. Goldberg knows is going to cause > inflammatory > reactions in many of his patients. He does this because he cares and > he > knows that the child can be doing better, can be healthier, can be > closer to > recovery. He needs to be their voice and the voice of the parent's > conscience. > > We all need a wakeup call sometimes because this road is hard. > > We have been a patient of Dr. G's for 8 years and not once, even > closely has > Dr. Goldberg ever yelled at me or raised his voice. On the contrary, > I feel > so indebted to him for listening to me, for believing me when I KNEW > my son > didn't have " Autism " , and for saving my son from a life of > isolation, poor > health and a bleak future that I feel compelled to want to please > him and > NEVER want to disappoint him. He has given me the son that I was > afraid I > was losing, the one I was told to " accept that he would always be > strange > and weird " . No Dr. G is not God, nor does he have a " God complex " . > He is > however our conscience and the voice of our children - his patients, > pushing > us all to do better for the sake of our children's health and > recovery. > > If you are not going to listen to him, then you are better off > leaving his > practice. His mission is not to make friends, but instead to make us > parents listen to his experience and save our children. Too many > folks take > what part of his advice they want and substitute in what other > protocols > they feel they want to work with as well. It doesn't work that way. > You > have to give it and Dr. G your all if you want to stop the > neuroinflammation > and therefore the " Autistic symptoms " . You have to surrender to all > that he > says and do your best to make it work. Only then will you see real > change > in your child, their labs, their behavior and their future. > > If you want to talk poorly of Dr. G, do it off list, in private, > because the > people that are here for the right reason do NOT want to hear it! > > Lori > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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