Re: All Good Child - last one to know

[Guest guest]

Welcome to the group, allgood. I am so sorry you are going through

this. I wonder about my own parents really, they have no capacity to

deal with their own problems or their interpersonal problems. I wonder

sometimes if the bpd/co-bpd parents need an offspring around so that

they can project this 'gunk' from themselves and between them onto.

This was probably what was modeled for them as children. I think at

this point there is enough information out there about healing that

they could reach out for help but won't, instead projecting is the

only coping mechanism they have or are willing to use. As long as

there is a kid around to go along with it. Their problems with your

husband probaby had more to do with being threatened by him and by

your relationship. I support your decision to not deal with them. It

was an incredibly generous thing that the two of you did for them. You

gave it your best shot, that is more than many people would have done.

I hope you can really give yourself credit for this and not beat up on

yourself about how it turned out. (((Hugs)))

[Guest guest]

what a good point! i don't know why i never thought about this

before, but it seems pretty clear now that bpd/npd couples must use

their kids to TRY to sort out the problems they have with each other.

maybe the npd can't deal with the bpd's emotions because admitting

something is wrong is an admission of failure, which is unacceptable.

the bpd doesn't want the npd to cut her out of his life, so instead

of confronting the npd directly, she projects the problems she's

having onto a kid who can't fight back. maybe this is the kid who

most resembles the npd.

make sense?

bink

>

> Welcome to the group, allgood. I am so sorry you are going through

> this. I wonder about my own parents really, they have no capacity to

> deal with their own problems or their interpersonal problems. I wonder

> sometimes if the bpd/co-bpd parents need an offspring around so that

> they can project this 'gunk' from themselves and between them onto.

> This was probably what was modeled for them as children. I think at

> this point there is enough information out there about healing that

> they could reach out for help but won't, instead projecting is the

> only coping mechanism they have or are willing to use. As long as

> there is a kid around to go along with it. Their problems with your

> husband probaby had more to do with being threatened by him and by

> your relationship. I support your decision to not deal with them. It

> was an incredibly generous thing that the two of you did for them. You

> gave it your best shot, that is more than many people would have done.

> I hope you can really give yourself credit for this and not beat up on

> yourself about how it turned out. (((Hugs)))

>

[Guest guest]

Hi allgood,

My story is similar to yours in many ways. I consider my nada/fada

typical bpd/narc dishrag combo. I didn't see this though until my

oldest brother took his life and my nada flipped a switch toward me

to create a replacement for my oldest brothers role of being the

cause for nada's drama. I was 36.

I have 2 older brothers. The oldest was " in trouble " /difficult

according to my parents (I now realize these allegations had no real

basis) but my middle brother and I saw what hell they made my oldest

brother's life and decided we should just mind our p & q's. My

middle brother I think still holds the all good role. He lives a

couple hours away and can maintain a distance but still see them for

holidays/birthdays.

My parents actually babysat my oldest son when I stilled worked for a

couple years full time before I knew about BPD. During this time, my

fada retired and they built their retirement home 3 blocks from us!!

A whole other story but I too live way too close to the dysfunction.

Anyway - I could go on forever but I had a few thoughts reading your

post. Bpds are high functioning or low functiong and everything in

between. So I think you will find that there are others of us that

were not abused outwardly physically or emotionally. I was also not

neglected, they paid for a lot of my college, gave me a car...but the

more I learn about healthy ways to take care of myself and deal with

my parents, I am finding big voids and areas of neglect emotionally.

I wasn't taught some of those basic life skills, I figured them out

for myself. I was parentified in that I took care of nada's

emotional needs as early as 5 or 6 yrs old. I was always embarassed

to have my friends hang out at my house bc on some level I knew

things weren't normal but I could never put my finger on what it was

exactly.

Another thought was about the roles that different siblings ko's

play. I think this is the same in other types of dysfunctional

families that there is a " black sheep " (or multiple black sheeps with

more kids) who are the scape goat for the family's problems. I have

huge amounts of guilt about not realizing until after my oldest

brother's death how horrible my parents were to this wonderful man.

My middle brother agrees that nada has issues but he still sees

things from the all good pedestal though and thinks my oldest brother

had a choice in how he handle dealing with nada/fada. I get along

great with my middle brother but he slips into conversation about

nada that HE has decided to deal with nada and fada in a loving and

respectful way - as if to say that I am not - ugh!!

Ditto in regards to you and your husband and how nada/fada faked

enjoying being around you and really complained about everything.

But I have found they do this with everyone and really can't enjoy

other people's company bc they don't enjoy their own company or

themselves.

Sorry for the long post - obviously these are some hot buttons for

me. Welcome to the group and you are definitely not alone in your

situation despite our details all being different. I am thankful

that I was spared some of the horrible abuse that others here have

suffered. I can only imagine how much recovering from all of this is

even more difficult.

Karin

> >

> > Welcome to the group, allgood. I am so sorry you are going

through

> > this. I wonder about my own parents really, they have no capacity

to

> > deal with their own problems or their interpersonal problems. I

wonder

> > sometimes if the bpd/co-bpd parents need an offspring around so

that

> > they can project this 'gunk' from themselves and between them

onto.

> > This was probably what was modeled for them as children. I think

at

> > this point there is enough information out there about healing

that

> > they could reach out for help but won't, instead projecting is

the

> > only coping mechanism they have or are willing to use. As long as

> > there is a kid around to go along with it. Their problems with

your

> > husband probaby had more to do with being threatened by him and

by

> > your relationship. I support your decision to not deal with them.

It

> > was an incredibly generous thing that the two of you did for

them. You

> > gave it your best shot, that is more than many people would have

done.

> > I hope you can really give yourself credit for this and not beat

up on

> > yourself about how it turned out. (((Hugs)))

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks to all for your support and insight! Much needed and much

appreciated.

Karin, I am so sorry that you lost your older brother. I am close with

my middle brother like you, and he had a similarly pleasant childhood as

me, and I have been trying to clue him in on BPD. It is hard to get him

to see that this is a big deal and not just some wacky fault I have

discovered in our mother. He doesn't understand that our other siblings

really, truly suffered growing up. The fact that you and I saw our

older brothers as " difficult " is part of the BPD brainwashing, I think.

I know you wish you'd seen the truth sooner, but maybe you couldn't

have. I think it takes a real shock to the system to get the all good

children to wake up and realize what is really going on. At least you

know now, and can stand up for your brother in his absence and say he

was not the problem.

You are right-- my parents complain about everyone, not just me. I

learned years ago that my father has a savant-like gift-- you name a

person, and he will tell you a story of how that person offended him. I

knew then that it was pretty likely he had a story about me, too. There

is no wiping the slate clean and starting over with him-- it goes down

in the books forever. I really like your insight that my parents " can't

really enjoy their own company or themselves. " Even though their

outward behavior is offensive and maddening, the underlying truth is so

sad and pitiful.

Finally, a question for you and anyone else who would respond:

I have seen lots of posts about children being " parentified " --

basically, having to be a parent for the parent growing up. I don't

feel like I had this role, but maybe I don't really understand it.

Could you give some examples of what this looked like growing up?

Clearly I was an extension of my mother, to the extent that my brother

even had to apologize to me for running away from home. I've been told

stories of how as a baby, I was a source of comfort for her. Ex: She

would be upset with my dad, and then give me extra attention. My dad

also told me that when I was little and crying, when they picked me up

to comfort me I would pat them on the back, as if to comfort them. This

all seems significant, but I don't have a real awareness of having had

abnormal emotional responsibilities growing up. I feel like as a good

child I had it pretty easy, but I'm trying to process what the side

effects might have been of having this role that I may not even

consciously be aware of.

allgood

[Guest guest]

All Good-

Thank you for sharing. My own experience is somewhere in between the

horrible and the all good. Enough toward the all good that like you, I

didn't realize until this Christmas just how mentally ill my mother

was. Growing up, I knew there were certain things my mother did that

were just not " normal " and my brother and I did our fair share

of " Walking on Eggshells. " I knew my parents relationship was not

something to be modeled even though they have been married for 45

years. My brother said once, " They get along in their own way. "

However, that " way " is completely and totally dysfunctional. He has

likely repeated the pattern in his own marriage unfortunately (having

possibly married a BPD).

I am, not that far ahead of you in regards to my reaction to becoming

aware of my situation. At Christmas, I went NC with my parents because

of an ultimatum they gave me. They told me if I continued to see my

Uncle (my mother's brother), they no longer had a daughter. I let them

know in no uncertain terms, that I was not going to be told with whom I

could associate and that their behavior was abhorrent. My parents

tried to put my brother in the middle. Given he lives out of state, it

made it harder for them to triangulate. Additionally, he did his best

to stay neutral, which I don't blame him for doing. We talked at

length about my mom and he basically agreed with me. It turns out he

already had a copy of " Stop Walking on Eggshells " because a therapist

had recommended it after hearing some things about his wife. He is

struggling with all of this because of his own home situation.

Because I have two daughters, my parents have been wanting to get back

into my life. At Easter they left a voicemail asking to see the

girls. My daughters went to Florida for Easter with my Ex-husband, but

I did not arrange anything after Easter for them to see their

grandparents when they got back. I e-mailed my parents that if

they " no longer have a daughter, " then they don't have grandkids

either - we're a package deal. Now it's my youngest daughter's

birthday coming up...my parents again want to see their " dear

granddaughter. " Again I have told them no. If they refuse to

acknowledge that their behavior is wrong, I am not going to pretend

anymore. In addition to their ultimatum at Christmas, my mother spent

well over a year telling family members behind my back that I am an

alcoholic and that my husband is an alcoholic. A completely and

totally untrue claim. She also levels this claim at my Uncle. At the

time of my wedding to my 2nd husband about 1.5 years ago, she was

muttering under her breath loud enough for my brother to hear, " I wish

I were dead. " Then, when she would visit my house, she would insist

that my husband call her " Mom. " She sends a birthday card that says

what a wonderful daughter I am, and then not a month later an e-mail

saying how " shamefully " I behave. Christmas was the last straw for

me. I no longer have the time or energy for her ridiculous drama.

It's hard at times...the FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) rolls in, but I

have found if I wait, eventually the sun comes out and I have the

clarity to work through it and hold my ground. I have my moments, but

as a whole, I feel much better.

Welcome to the group...so sorry you qualify!

JJFan

>

> Hello,

>

> I am new to this group but I've been reading many of the postings. I

am

> 100% sure that my mother has BPD, but I think my situation is somewhat

> unique in that my childhood was good. Also, I was completely oblivious

> to the fact that my mother was mentally ill until I was 36 years old.

I

> thought I would post my story to see if others share my experiences.

>

[Guest guest]

JJFan,

I don't have any children, but I can totally hear my parents playing the

" grandparent card " if I did. My sister came to visit once and by the

time she arrived my parents were already mad at her. My dad angrily said

to her, " Let me see my grandkids, " as if it was his absolute right to do

so. Now that they live near me, my mother laments that she is so far

from my brother's children. However, my parents used to live in the

same town as my brother and chose to move away. Their justification at

the time was " they don't need us " . I can totally see why you don't want

the drama in your life, or your daughter's lives. It's hard, because

there is always a " normal " way of looking at things. The " normal " thing

would be to let your parents see their grandchildren. But these are far

from normal parents, and you are protecting your daughters as well as

yourself. It's a shame that even when we do go NC we aren't free from

the emotional battle with our parents. In my opinion, that just proves

how toxic they are. The relationship is so bad that it makes us

override our natural instincts to want a close family. We just have to

keep reminding ourselves how harmful the relationship is so that we

aren't tempted to try " normal " again. Stay strong, and thank you for

sharing with me.

Allgood

[Guest guest]

>

> ...You are right-- my parents complain about everyone, not just

me. I

> learned years ago that my father has a savant-like gift-- you name

a

> person, and he will tell you a story of how that person offended

him. I

> knew then that it was pretty likely he had a story about me, too.

There

> is no wiping the slate clean and starting over with him-- it goes

down

> in the books forever. I really like your insight that my

parents " can't

> really enjoy their own company or themselves. " Even though their

> outward behavior is offensive and maddening, the underlying truth

is so

> sad and pitiful.

>

> Finally, a question for you and anyone else who would respond:

>

> I have seen lots of posts about children being " parentified " --

> basically, having to be a parent for the parent growing up.

Allgood-

My mother also has that Savant gift of remembering any alleged

slight...to this day, she recounts how my grandmother (her MIL now

deceased) made her cry on her wedding day. I never understood the

story she told about it (why she cried to begin with)...but now

realize it was probably nothing. She can also remember who gave how

much as a wedding gift at her wedding AND my first wedding. As a

matter of fact, when I got remarried, she didn't want me to invite

any of our family because, " They won't come anyway...they are too

cheap to give another gift. " I told her I wasn't inviting people for

the gift, but to meet my new husband. If someone chooses not to

attend because they attended my first wedding, that is there choice,

but I will not decide in advance for them. Funny thing was EVERYONE

came and everyone had a nice time...except my parents.

I can't say I had to take care of my parents growing up per se...but

as I came into adulthood, I found myself shielding things from my

mother in particular, because I didn't want her to worry...she was/is

definitely a chicken little...something bad is just around the

bend...sort of person. I always knew I could never have a " real " or

close relationship with her because there would always be things I

couldn't share. She was not trustworthy and she just couldn't deal

with things. I never told her of any of my problems in my first

marriage again because I felt she would have worried herself sick.

Several years ago I went through a biopsy and whatnot and NEVER told

her. I told a friend that if I did, she would have had hospice at my

home before I was out of recovery. I also remember times when I

became an adult my dad would ask me my opinion about a possible job

change and whatnot, but told me not to tell my mother because " she

will just get upset about it before it ever happens. "

My mother was not a bad grandparent when my kids were small...I think

she could relate to them better because she probably is stuck at the

mentality of a 5 year old emotionally. But now, I would just be

concerned she would say something horrible like she does to me. The

worst mistake I ever made was letting her watch my kids two summers

ago. If there is any plus to it, as a result, my kids aren't really

upset they don't see their Nana anymore. They, unfortunately,

experienced first hand some of her crazy making.

Anyhow...glad you are posting and looking for answers yourself.

Don't let yourself worry too much about other family members who

don't " get " it yet. They may or may never come around, but you don't

need their validation to know you are right. You found this place

and the books, etc...you know what you know, so stick with it. Heal

yourself and let the rest take care of itself.

Take care-

JJFan

[Guest guest]

Hi allgood,

If I recall correctly, the parentified child was described best in

the Toxic Parent book that my middle brother found and told me

about. My brother was funny, he was forwarding exerts from the book

to me with highlights - big light bulb moments. He seemed to get the

connection that my parents are toxic but I still think he doubts that

my mom has bpd. I don't think I would either though until I saw just

how evil she really could be when she flipped on me. He has seen her

rages but she flipped to an all out hating me. suicide threats unless

I did what she wanted and basically wanting me dead mode after my

brother died. Very surreal to experience. Maybe this book is

something your closest brother could connect more with.

I think my brother being the opposite sex from nada has something to

do with my brother's reluctance to fully accept nada's bpd and mental

illness. Kind of a protecting instict he can't shake. My brother

was actually harder on my fada's behavior and made me see that my

fada is just as much of the problem. My fada even went after my

brother more with the guilt and outright bribery. Fada quote: " I was

going to buy you_____, but not when you are acting like this (insert

telling the truth to him about how we feel here)... I just can't buy

you things. " Maybe its a guy's code of ethics that they are there to

protect their lady folks no matter what.

Karin

>

> Thanks to all for your support and insight! Much needed and much

> appreciated.

>

> Karin, I am so sorry that you lost your older brother. I am close

with

> my middle brother like you, and he had a similarly pleasant

childhood as

> me, and I have been trying to clue him in on BPD. It is hard to

get him

> to see that this is a big deal and not just some wacky fault I have

> discovered in our mother. He doesn't understand that our other

siblings

> really, truly suffered growing up. The fact that you and I saw our

> older brothers as " difficult " is part of the BPD brainwashing, I

think.

> I know you wish you'd seen the truth sooner, but maybe you couldn't

> have. I think it takes a real shock to the system to get the all

good

> children to wake up and realize what is really going on. At least

you

> know now, and can stand up for your brother in his absence and say

he

> was not the problem.

>

> You are right-- my parents complain about everyone, not just me. I

> learned years ago that my father has a savant-like gift-- you name

a

> person, and he will tell you a story of how that person offended

him. I

> knew then that it was pretty likely he had a story about me, too.

There

> is no wiping the slate clean and starting over with him-- it goes

down

> in the books forever. I really like your insight that my

parents " can't

> really enjoy their own company or themselves. " Even though their

> outward behavior is offensive and maddening, the underlying truth

is so

> sad and pitiful.

>

> Finally, a question for you and anyone else who would respond:

>

> I have seen lots of posts about children being " parentified " --

> basically, having to be a parent for the parent growing up. I

don't

> feel like I had this role, but maybe I don't really understand it.

> Could you give some examples of what this looked like growing up?

>

> Clearly I was an extension of my mother, to the extent that my

brother

> even had to apologize to me for running away from home. I've been

told

> stories of how as a baby, I was a source of comfort for her. Ex:

She

> would be upset with my dad, and then give me extra attention. My

dad

> also told me that when I was little and crying, when they picked me

up

> to comfort me I would pat them on the back, as if to comfort them.

This

> all seems significant, but I don't have a real awareness of having

had

> abnormal emotional responsibilities growing up. I feel like as a

good

> child I had it pretty easy, but I'm trying to process what the side

> effects might have been of having this role that I may not even

> consciously be aware of.

>

> allgood

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

This makes me think of all the lost years that nada has caused

between all of my family and that we let her interfere. Even now it

takes constant work to keep up my relationships with my brother and

my other SIL. Overstepping nada as the family relationships

gatekeeper was one of those things that rocked nada's boat and we all

just let her do it to keep the peace. She had to control it all and

would pump us for information about who said what to whom. I feel a

lot of guilt and sadness too for allowing that to happen. I think

healthy parents want their kids to have close adult relationships but

that is very threatening to nada & fada. I think they are afraid we

will catch on to their manipulations - duh, too late!

Karin

>

> Pretty sharp of you to catch that.

>

>

>

> Re: All Good Child - last one to know

>

> I later realized that in telling my story for this post, I referred

to

> my older siblings as " step siblings " , when really they are " half "

> siblings-- we share the same father.  They have always been loving

to

> me.  I really looked up to them and was so sad when they left

home. 

> Once they were on their own we didn't hear from them very often,

which

> is understandable considering how they were treated.  That left me

to

> just soak up my parents' negativity and think of my siblings as

> something different than my own experience told me.  It makes me

sad

> that I let that happen, and that even in telling the story I

created

> more of a separation between us than there really is.

>

> Allgood

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @...

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-

SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding

the Borderline Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline

Parent, " (Roth) which you can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the

WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and

author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Hey, Allgood -- You didn't create any separation. Don't worry about

it! If I had a penny for every mis-typed or spoken work I've

said....I'd be rich! You are a great sister to your siblings and very

loved!

ton2

[Guest guest]

I applaud your strength! I know what you mean about how even

pleasantries can seem abusive when you know it is fake and just a

cover. As a kid and young adult though, I was so needy for something

positive, that I would latch onto even these pleasantries. Now that

you refuse to play the game, maybe they will find new ways of relating

after their bombs have all exploded and the smoke has had a long time

to slowly dissipate and clear.

>

> Just an update-- one month ago I emailed BPmom and dad about their

> emotional abuse and got four weeks of silence; this week I heard from

> BPmom via email, dad tried to call (I didn't pick up), then he

> emailed. BPmom's email was brief, emotionally charged, and more of a

> " goodbye " than an attempt at reconciliation. Dad was insistent on a

> face to face meeting and refused to put anything he wanted to say in

> writing (red flag!!) I have written them both back and restated the

> issues and restated my boundary of communicating only through email.

> Dad is still " hopeful I will call. " They are using lots of emotional

> tactics but I absolutely will not allow either of them to get on the

> phone or sit down with me and give me more of the emotional abuse they

> have dished out in the past. Even dad's attempts at pleasantries now

> feel abusive because they are just a cover for the ugliness that is

> really going on. I realize that even though in my world things are

> improving, in their world bombs are going off and things are crashing

> down around them. That is actually what has to happen, because only

> if their world crumbles will they even be tempted to admit that they

> are behaving in a harmful way. I'm doing a duck and cover while the

> storm blows through. I feel so supported just by knowing that many of

> you have been through this and much worse.

>