Re: Can LDN inhibit anti-virals?/cough syrup

[Guest guest]

I don't currently take any cough syrup, but some docs recommend the ones that

have DM in them - they have an inhibiting effect on something ... someone help

me out ... memory no good today ... neurochemical - excitatory, but too much is

toxic...  Mucinex DM is supposed to have that benefit.

It's the hydrocodone (narcotic/lortab) cough syrup that makes me feel 'normal'

when prescribed, but it is addictive and not something you can take more than a

regular course.  But back when I would have it for bronchitis, before I started

doxycycline (it was chronic mycoplasma pneumonia - now I hardly ever get

bronchitis), I had to take that all the time (tussinex) and it was always

dramatic.  But towards the end, I'd find that I'd lose that benefit and start

not caring about some things, get cranky - not pleasant.  And when I'd be out,

I

also found I'd crave more, which is not a comfortable feeling.  But the

irritability would go away too, which balances it all out.  A lot of people who

have been addicted to narcotics say they started because it was the only time

they felt normal, and it quickly wore off & they'd get out of control.  High

high risk.

But again, DM (dexame-something - stinkin' memory! Or rather word-recall today

lol) is supposed to have a similar effect without the addiction risks, and it's

also used with fibromyalgia...

HTH

 

________________________________

From: Tammy Farmer <stoplyme@...>

Sent: Tue, January 18, 2011 8:40:24 AM

Subject: Re: Can LDN inhibit anti-virals?

 

Sorry to butt in ,but the cough syrup sounds interesting to me

..What kind do you use?Is it over the counter? I would like to try that

on myself. I have had a few things make me feel normal,but they are

prescription.Thanks,Tammy F.

>

> I don't know the answer about LDN, but there's a couple of other

> possibilities

> going on too...

> One, starting and stopping antivirals, as well as using a lower than

> treatment-level dose (some Dans! do low-dose or 'suppressive' doses)

> can rapidly

> cause resistance, and that antiviral can become less effective.

> When that happens, or when it's not the right dose or type of

> antiviral, the

> antiviral can literally 'stir up' a virus, and if it's unable to keep it

> suppressed, actually increase viral activity, because it sort of

> 'flushed' a

> virus out but didn't keep it down. Years ago I used to see Dr G throw

> quite the

> temper tantrum over how serious under-dosing & starting and stopping is.

>

> Once when I was having a bad CFIDS attack, and my brain completely

> went, I

> couldn't even get my kids' antivirals filled literally for two

> weeks. Couldn't

> schedule an appointment, couldn't get labs done - couldn't make a phone

> calll... I was a real mess. When I was telling him what happened,

> before we got

> to the part where I was so sick that I couldn't function, he totally

> flipped out

> on me for running out - said that these viruses (like HHV6 which one

> kid was a

> clear HHV6 kid) can rapidly build resistance the moment you let up on

> them, and

> there are so few antivirals we can use in our kids. He eventually

> realized I

> knew all this & that something was wrong for me to have done that, and

> he helped

> me get on the road to recovery. It was a painful little chat but I

> never ran

> out of meds (at least on the kids) again until we just couldn't

> sustain the

> protocol anymore when I couldn't get well & couldn't work anymore.

>

> But I can't remember why he's against LDN, but I do know it's been

> tried in the

> CFS community for a long time, and it has been rejected by many of

> those docs.

> I don't think I see Dr Klimas recommending it (I could be wrong but I

> really

> don't remember or I'd have already asked for it based on what I've

> read), so she

> must see a negative immune effect. Sometimes while it may have a

> positive

> effect on one type of immune cell, it can also have a negative effect on

> another. Anyway, the research didn't pan out on it. (Of course, I

> fell off my

> chair the first time I heard he had prescribed adderal - I didn't

> believe it

> until the next person said so too.)

>

> LDN has some effects on some receptors (opiod maybe?) that can make

> your kids

> brighter - but sometimes that's not always a good thing. Just because

> someone

> brightens up and has a lot more energy on opiates or their antagonists

> doesn't

> mean they're actually very good for them, and there are some downhill

> effects on

> the immune system - some kind of suppression that I remember reading

> about that

> surprised me. I've been particularly interested in LDN because if I

> take a

> narcotic cough syrup, I feel almost normal. I'm much brighter and

> have much

> more energy. I feel more human than any other time. It's actually

> scarey. But

> down the road, other problems crop up. So while I have little doubt

> that it

> (LDN) would make me feel better - maybe significantly - I haven't gone

> there.

>

> So anyway, I don't know why your kids are looking brighter off

> antivirals than

> on, but it is concerning. I would first question the dose, then watch

> for the

> possibility of an extended die-off because it isn't hitting the

> virus(es) as

> effectively, and then the possibility that it isn't the right one. If

> a kid

> went into more of a fog on them and did not pull out of it in a month,

> I believe

> Dr G would switch it, although that may depend on labs and exactly

> what kind of

> cognitive stuff you're seeing.

>

> There's another possibility too. It could be that as a virus gets

> suppressed,

> blood flow may increase to the brain a bit, and in an already inflamed

> brain,

> this doesn't always look nice at first. That's why sometimes starting

> SSRIs are

> so rough. But if your dose was good and the antiviral was right and

> the labs

> are looking ok but your kid went foggy, I believe Dr G would almost

> certainly

> add an SSRI at that point. You do sometimes see what looks like a

> step back

> that actually isn't.

>

> So is it Valtrex that you're back on? Also, is it coated with blue

> dye, and are

> you washing that off? If you're back on Valtrex after a lot of stops and

> starts, perhaps your dr would consider a different one (at treatment, not

> suppressive dose)? My kids did much better on Famvir.

>

> Those are just a couple of my thoughts on possibilities of what you

> could be

> seeing. I'm sure there's a lot more possibilities than those, of course.

>

> HTH,

>

>

> ________________________________

> From: rhondamasengale <rhondamasengale@...

> <mailto:rhondamasengale%40>>

> <mailto:%40>

> Sent: Mon, January 17, 2011 9:28:50 AM

> Subject: Can LDN inhibit anti-virals?

>

>

> Hi listmates. My boys have been on LDN for 2 years. We previously did the

> valtrex protocol and had wonderful gains. However, since starting LDN and

> restarting the anti virals (previous Dan took them off and they

> regressed again)

> they don't seem to be responding as good as before. Also, cognitively,

> they just

> seem off when in it. I took them off for about a month in Dec. and

> they seemed

> to be responding much better cognitively, HOWEVER, the eczema came

> back and they

> were getting sick back-to-back for 6 weeks.

>

> Now back on the LDN, the antivirals don't seem to be working as well

> and they

> are off again. Has anyone doing the protocol had an experience

> like this

> with LDN? someone said Dr. Goldberg didn't like to use LDN, does

> anyone know

> why? I plan to see Dr. soon, starting labs this week. Just

> wanted to

> know if anyone else experienced this. Thank you!

>

>

[Guest guest]

DM or Dextromethorphan is an NMDA antagonist, here is a study that supports the

use of this drug for autism:

Dextromethorphan as a potential neuroprotective agent with unique mechanisms of

action.

Werling LL, Lauterbach EC, Calef U.

The Institute for Biomedical Sciences, The Washington University Medical

Center, Washington, DC, USA.

Abstract

BACKGROUND: Dextromethorphan (DM) is a widely-used antitussive. DM's complex

central nervous system (CNS) pharmacology became of interest when it was

discovered to be neuroprotective due to its low-affinity, uncompetitive

N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptor antagonism.

REVIEW SUMMARY: Mounting preclinical evidence has proven that DM has important

neuroprotective properties in various CNS injury models, including focal and

global ischemia, seizure, and traumatic brain injury paradigms.

Many of these protective actions seem functionally related to its inhibitory

effects on glutamate-induced neurotoxicity via NMDA receptor antagonist, sigma-1

receptor agonist, and voltage-gated calcium channel antagonist actions. DM's

protection of dopamine neurons in parkinsonian models may be due to inhibition

of neurodegenerative inflammatory responses. Clinical findings are limited, with

preliminary evidence indicating that DM protects against neuronal damage.

Negative findings seem to relate to attainment of inadequate DM brain

concentrations. Small studies have shown some promise for treatment of

perioperative brain injury, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, and symptoms of

methotrexate neurotoxicity. DM safety/tolerability trials in stroke,

neurosurgery, and amyotrophic lateral sclerosis patients demonstrated a

favorable safety profile. DM's limited clinical benefit is proposed to be

associated with its rapid metabolism to dextrorphan, which restricts its central

bioavailability and therapeutic utility. Systemic concentrations of DM can be

increased via coadministration of low-dose quinidine (Q), which reversibly

inhibits its first-pass elimination. Potential drug interactions with DM/Q are

discussed.

CONCLUSIONS: Given the compelling preclinical evidence for neuroprotective

properties of DM, initial clinical neuroprotective findings, and clinical

demonstrations that the DM/Q combination is well tolerated, this strategy may

hold promise for the treatment of various acute and degenerative neurologic

disorders.

>

> I don't currently take any cough syrup, but some docs recommend the ones that

> have DM in them - they have an inhibiting effect on something ... someone help

> me out ... memory no good today ... neurochemical - excitatory, but too much

is

> toxic...  Mucinex DM is supposed to have that benefit.

>

> It's the hydrocodone (narcotic/lortab) cough syrup that makes me feel 'normal'

> when prescribed, but it is addictive and not something you can take more than

a

> regular course.  But back when I would have it for bronchitis, before I

started

> doxycycline (it was chronic mycoplasma pneumonia - now I hardly ever get

> bronchitis), I had to take that all the time (tussinex) and it was always

> dramatic.  But towards the end, I'd find that I'd lose that benefit and start

> not caring about some things, get cranky - not pleasant.  And when I'd be

out, I

> also found I'd crave more, which is not a comfortable feeling.  But the

> irritability would go away too, which balances it all out.  A lot of people

who

> have been addicted to narcotics say they started because it was the only time

> they felt normal, and it quickly wore off & they'd get out of control.  High

> high risk.

>

> But again, DM (dexame-something - stinkin' memory! Or rather word-recall today

> lol) is supposed to have a similar effect without the addiction risks, and

it's

> also used with fibromyalgia...

>

>

> HTH

>  

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

> From: Tammy Farmer <stoplyme@...>

>

> Sent: Tue, January 18, 2011 8:40:24 AM

> Subject: Re: Can LDN inhibit anti-virals?

>

>  

> Sorry to butt in ,but the cough syrup sounds interesting to me

> .What kind do you use?Is it over the counter? I would like to try that

> on myself. I have had a few things make me feel normal,but they are

> prescription.Thanks,Tammy F.

> >

> > I don't know the answer about LDN, but there's a couple of other

> > possibilities

> > going on too...

> > One, starting and stopping antivirals, as well as using a lower than

> > treatment-level dose (some Dans! do low-dose or 'suppressive' doses)

> > can rapidly

> > cause resistance, and that antiviral can become less effective.

> > When that happens, or when it's not the right dose or type of

> > antiviral, the

> > antiviral can literally 'stir up' a virus, and if it's unable to keep it

> > suppressed, actually increase viral activity, because it sort of

> > 'flushed' a

> > virus out but didn't keep it down. Years ago I used to see Dr G throw

> > quite the

> > temper tantrum over how serious under-dosing & starting and stopping is.

> >

> > Once when I was having a bad CFIDS attack, and my brain completely

> > went, I

> > couldn't even get my kids' antivirals filled literally for two

> > weeks. Couldn't

> > schedule an appointment, couldn't get labs done - couldn't make a phone

> > calll... I was a real mess. When I was telling him what happened,

> > before we got

> > to the part where I was so sick that I couldn't function, he totally

> > flipped out

> > on me for running out - said that these viruses (like HHV6 which one

> > kid was a

> > clear HHV6 kid) can rapidly build resistance the moment you let up on

> > them, and

> > there are so few antivirals we can use in our kids. He eventually

> > realized I

> > knew all this & that something was wrong for me to have done that, and

> > he helped

> > me get on the road to recovery. It was a painful little chat but I

> > never ran

> > out of meds (at least on the kids) again until we just couldn't

> > sustain the

> > protocol anymore when I couldn't get well & couldn't work anymore.

> >

> > But I can't remember why he's against LDN, but I do know it's been

> > tried in the

> > CFS community for a long time, and it has been rejected by many of

> > those docs.

> > I don't think I see Dr Klimas recommending it (I could be wrong but I

> > really

> > don't remember or I'd have already asked for it based on what I've

> > read), so she

> > must see a negative immune effect. Sometimes while it may have a

> > positive

> > effect on one type of immune cell, it can also have a negative effect on

> > another. Anyway, the research didn't pan out on it. (Of course, I

> > fell off my

> > chair the first time I heard he had prescribed adderal - I didn't

> > believe it

> > until the next person said so too.)

> >

> > LDN has some effects on some receptors (opiod maybe?) that can make

> > your kids

> > brighter - but sometimes that's not always a good thing. Just because

> > someone

> > brightens up and has a lot more energy on opiates or their antagonists

> > doesn't

> > mean they're actually very good for them, and there are some downhill

> > effects on

> > the immune system - some kind of suppression that I remember reading

> > about that

> > surprised me. I've been particularly interested in LDN because if I

> > take a

> > narcotic cough syrup, I feel almost normal. I'm much brighter and

> > have much

> > more energy. I feel more human than any other time. It's actually

> > scarey. But

> > down the road, other problems crop up. So while I have little doubt

> > that it

> > (LDN) would make me feel better - maybe significantly - I haven't gone

> > there.

> >

> > So anyway, I don't know why your kids are looking brighter off

> > antivirals than

> > on, but it is concerning. I would first question the dose, then watch

> > for the

> > possibility of an extended die-off because it isn't hitting the

> > virus(es) as

> > effectively, and then the possibility that it isn't the right one. If

> > a kid

> > went into more of a fog on them and did not pull out of it in a month,

> > I believe

> > Dr G would switch it, although that may depend on labs and exactly

> > what kind of

> > cognitive stuff you're seeing.

> >

> > There's another possibility too. It could be that as a virus gets

> > suppressed,

> > blood flow may increase to the brain a bit, and in an already inflamed

> > brain,

> > this doesn't always look nice at first. That's why sometimes starting

> > SSRIs are

> > so rough. But if your dose was good and the antiviral was right and

> > the labs

> > are looking ok but your kid went foggy, I believe Dr G would almost

> > certainly

> > add an SSRI at that point. You do sometimes see what looks like a

> > step back

> > that actually isn't.

> >

> > So is it Valtrex that you're back on? Also, is it coated with blue

> > dye, and are

> > you washing that off? If you're back on Valtrex after a lot of stops and

> > starts, perhaps your dr would consider a different one (at treatment, not

> > suppressive dose)? My kids did much better on Famvir.

> >

> > Those are just a couple of my thoughts on possibilities of what you

> > could be

> > seeing. I'm sure there's a lot more possibilities than those, of course.

> >

> > HTH,

> >

> >

> > ________________________________

> > From: rhondamasengale <rhondamasengale@...

> > <mailto:rhondamasengale%40>>

> > <mailto:%40>

> > Sent: Mon, January 17, 2011 9:28:50 AM

> > Subject: Can LDN inhibit anti-virals?

> >

> >

> > Hi listmates. My boys have been on LDN for 2 years. We previously did the

> > valtrex protocol and had wonderful gains. However, since starting LDN and

> > restarting the anti virals (previous Dan took them off and they

> > regressed again)

> > they don't seem to be responding as good as before. Also, cognitively,

> > they just

> > seem off when in it. I took them off for about a month in Dec. and

> > they seemed

> > to be responding much better cognitively, HOWEVER, the eczema came

> > back and they

> > were getting sick back-to-back for 6 weeks.

> >

> > Now back on the LDN, the antivirals don't seem to be working as well

> > and they

> > are off again. Has anyone doing the protocol had an experience

> > like this

> > with LDN? someone said Dr. Goldberg didn't like to use LDN, does

> > anyone know

> > why? I plan to see Dr. soon, starting labs this week. Just

> > wanted to

> > know if anyone else experienced this. Thank you!

> >

> >