total confusion over looks

May 5, 2008

this is an issue for me too. My mother was sexually abused by her

father and he always told her how 'special' she was. I think what he

did besides the abuse was enabling; she believes this too, that the

flipside of his abuse was to make her feel special and exempt

somehow from certain aspects of life. And I think that my parents

did that with me. They half the time told me I was very pretty, and

then the other half my dad was always making me feel like I did not

measure up. One thing that really messed me up was that when

anything would happen at school, I would tell them and they would

say that the other person with whom I had the problem was " just

jealous " of me. Number one, it wasn't true every time, if ever, and

number two, it didn't teach me a thing about relating to people or

give me any information whatever about how to handle the situation

or handle people when they are showing emotions that are not based

in the actual facts of the situation. And that was something I

needed desperately to learn. Sigh...I think my parents made me feel

that I was more attractive as a child and teen than I actually was.

And I am not sure why they did that. It's been a negative in my

life. I related to your title 'confusion about looks' because I

never had any gauge on how 'attractive' I was. Most of the time I

felt very unnattractive. Or I was 'pretty' but in the wrong way. I

didn't have the money for good clothes in college and I had no

personality, or the wrong kind, so I felt hideous. And was treated

pretty bad. It was a train wreck.

Another thing that make me mad now was how they always talked

about 'the real world' and how high school 'didn't count' and, they

would say things like 'the girls that are thought of as pretty at

this school would be nothing in a bigger school' and 'those girls

will be nothing when they get to college'. I mean, they totally

fostered a competitive spirit and a looks-based outlook. They didn't

give me a sound, moral, wise, outlook on life at all. Looking back

at some of the things that they said and did it sounds like their

point of view was very shallow, immature, and unwise. And that the

way they thought to make me feel better was to put other people

down. And I didn't know that that was not right for a long time. And

now I realize how Unhelpful that outlook was, and how it really

stunted me. For one thing, they told me when I got out of high

school and into the real world of college it would be like walking

into Nirvana and things would be wonderful. Well, I had no social

skills, and autistic tendencies, which I wasn't aware of because I'd

been at that school since 3rd grade and knew everyone. I got to

college and my everything collapsed. It was a nightmare. I didn't

know how to relate. I was a shy person so I'd always find an

extrovert and hook up with them and let them be the gatekeeper. I am

only now just realizing I have done this my whole life. But college

was a bust, I became chemically dependent and self-injured alot and

was regarded as a 'freak'. I dropped out after sophomore year. I was

barely functional until I got sober at 23. Oops this post has gone

on forever.

I guess what I am saying is I had zero sense of myself, and that

included looks. I believed I was either very hideous or very

attractive or both somehow. It was weird, the distortion I grew up

with. 'Welcome to Oz' indeed.

May 6, 2008

Hey Cam,

This is really a great topic.

My parents only told me that I was ugly or pointed out my negative traits.

Never one time did I hear that I was attractive as a child, a beautiful

baby, nothing. I know my dad did NOT want a vane daughter and he succeeded

in not having that.

I thought I was very very plain and my body image is completly confused. I

honestly just can't tell. I spent most of my life feeling invisible, like

people couldn't really even see me or like I blended in.

No one ever told me I was attractive until I was 28 years old and I was

going through my divorce. I think because my BPD isolation ended at this

time in my life I met a lot of new people and guys started asking me out or

pretty girls would tell me I had this or that attractive feature which was a

total shock.

My boyfriend today tells me I am a chameleon. I can and often do change my

appearance from day to day enough that sometimes casual aquantences can't

recognize me. Still struggling with the body image thing and I can't stand

to weigh myself so I don't have any idea most of the time of my weight and I

think it goes up and down in ways that would be extreme for someone else, I

think within about a 15 lb range. I'm very active, but anyway it's just

confusing to me.

My nada's weight was constantly changing. She would loose or gain I don't

know how much but I'm guessing extreme amounts, like 70 lbs in just months.

One of the BPD books that I read describes this as a form of self injury.

When I went NC with nada, she responded by writing me letters or having my

dad call me to tell me she had lost weight and gotten in shape. Even 5 years

later when I went NC with dad, every phone call ended with an update on her

weight loss. I listened politely but all I could think was, if she treats me

like shit, why do I care if she weighs 140 lbs or 215 lbs, your a b*tch

either way. I guess she thought that being good or bad was really related to

her weight.

Very confusing topic for me. Something I am confused by daily.

gs

>

> this is an issue for me too. My mother was sexually abused by her

> father and he always told her how 'special' she was. I think what he

> did besides the abuse was enabling; she believes this too, that the

> flipside of his abuse was to make her feel special and exempt

> somehow from certain aspects of life. And I think that my parents

> did that with me. They half the time told me I was very pretty, and

> then the other half my dad was always making me feel like I did not

> measure up. One thing that really messed me up was that when

> anything would happen at school, I would tell them and they would

> say that the other person with whom I had the problem was " just

> jealous " of me. Number one, it wasn't true every time, if ever, and

> number two, it didn't teach me a thing about relating to people or

> give me any information whatever about how to handle the situation

> or handle people when they are showing emotions that are not based

> in the actual facts of the situation. And that was something I

> needed desperately to learn. Sigh...I think my parents made me feel

> that I was more attractive as a child and teen than I actually was.

> And I am not sure why they did that. It's been a negative in my

> life. I related to your title 'confusion about looks' because I

> never had any gauge on how 'attractive' I was. Most of the time I

> felt very unnattractive. Or I was 'pretty' but in the wrong way. I

> didn't have the money for good clothes in college and I had no

> personality, or the wrong kind, so I felt hideous. And was treated

> pretty bad. It was a train wreck.

>

> Another thing that make me mad now was how they always talked

> about 'the real world' and how high school 'didn't count' and, they

> would say things like 'the girls that are thought of as pretty at

> this school would be nothing in a bigger school' and 'those girls

> will be nothing when they get to college'. I mean, they totally

> fostered a competitive spirit and a looks-based outlook. They didn't

> give me a sound, moral, wise, outlook on life at all. Looking back

> at some of the things that they said and did it sounds like their

> point of view was very shallow, immature, and unwise. And that the

> way they thought to make me feel better was to put other people

> down. And I didn't know that that was not right for a long time. And

> now I realize how Unhelpful that outlook was, and how it really

> stunted me. For one thing, they told me when I got out of high

> school and into the real world of college it would be like walking

> into Nirvana and things would be wonderful. Well, I had no social

> skills, and autistic tendencies, which I wasn't aware of because I'd

> been at that school since 3rd grade and knew everyone. I got to

> college and my everything collapsed. It was a nightmare. I didn't

> know how to relate. I was a shy person so I'd always find an

> extrovert and hook up with them and let them be the gatekeeper. I am

> only now just realizing I have done this my whole life. But college

> was a bust, I became chemically dependent and self-injured alot and

> was regarded as a 'freak'. I dropped out after sophomore year. I was

> barely functional until I got sober at 23. Oops this post has gone

> on forever.

>

> I guess what I am saying is I had zero sense of myself, and that

> included looks. I believed I was either very hideous or very

> attractive or both somehow. It was weird, the distortion I grew up

> with. 'Welcome to Oz' indeed.

>

May 6, 2008

I hadn't thought of my mother's weight as a form of 'self-abuse'.

She is all over the map with her weight... lately it's been a

constant stream of, " Oh, and I've lost another 2pounds " ... good for

her but it's wierd... to hear her tell the story, she should be -129

by now...

I've always been told I was pretty (in a " use this as a weapon "

sorta way) but it took until I was in my late 30's to NOT use it as

a weapon or tool to get what I wanted from people. Oh, God, there

it is... I have a very " classic look " (blonde hair, hourglass shape,

blue eyes, fair skin)... I look like NEITHER of my parents... I'm

either a recessive gene or someone elses kid (I always fantasized

about that... if I wasn't really Nada's daughter, I wouldn't EVER

be like her...). There's a lot tied into looks here...

Took me a long, long time start making my brain work for me. I have

always been in the " gifted " pool - imagine 'this' scenario... child

moves constantly, always the 'new kid', always in " gifted " classes

at the new school, always 'blonde/blue " , always shy and nervous,

being sexually abused by whoever... what a combo. Anyway, as an

adult I had to take ownership of my brains and make them work for

me. I came to a point where I can now think, well if I get in a car

wreck and lose my face and my body and my 'externals'... SO WHAT!?

I still have 'me'.

That said, I like to be " pretty " for my SO. I like to go girlie and

play diva queen of the hair flip and dress up. It's a game and it's

a toy but it's certainly not what defines me... SO likes that I have

that attitude about it... he likes to watch me " dance " ... he knows

it's been a long road for me to be free of my looks and just dip

into them when I'm feeling " in a mood " ...

As I get further away from using my appearance as a weapon of mass

destruction my Nada is beginning to get critical of me with that

topic. Apparently she's very upset that, as I get older, I'm going

to lose my 'shiny looks' and therefore amount to nothing. She's

worried that I'm wasting my time on SO (I won't marry him right

now...) and I need to FIND SOMEONE WHO WILL SUPPORT ME WHEN I GET

OLD LIKE HER (hello? I'll have a Doctoral degree within the year...

don't need a man to take care of me)... egads.

Doesn't matter if you're pretty or not... you're doomed either

way...lol.

Lynnette - When the wolves howl, make sure you're carrying a good

purse!

> >

> > this is an issue for me too. My mother was sexually abused by

her

> > father and he always told her how 'special' she was. I think

what he

> > did besides the abuse was enabling; she believes this too, that

the

> > flipside of his abuse was to make her feel special and exempt

> > somehow from certain aspects of life. And I think that my parents

> > did that with me. They half the time told me I was very pretty,

and

> > then the other half my dad was always making me feel like I did

not

> > measure up. One thing that really messed me up was that when

> > anything would happen at school, I would tell them and they would

> > say that the other person with whom I had the problem was " just

> > jealous " of me. Number one, it wasn't true every time, if ever,

and

> > number two, it didn't teach me a thing about relating to people

or

> > give me any information whatever about how to handle the

situation

> > or handle people when they are showing emotions that are not

based

> > in the actual facts of the situation. And that was something I

> > needed desperately to learn. Sigh...I think my parents made me

feel

> > that I was more attractive as a child and teen than I actually

was.

> > And I am not sure why they did that. It's been a negative in my

> > life. I related to your title 'confusion about looks' because I

> > never had any gauge on how 'attractive' I was. Most of the time I

> > felt very unnattractive. Or I was 'pretty' but in the wrong way.

I

> > didn't have the money for good clothes in college and I had no

> > personality, or the wrong kind, so I felt hideous. And was

treated

> > pretty bad. It was a train wreck.

> >

> > Another thing that make me mad now was how they always talked

> > about 'the real world' and how high school 'didn't count' and,

they

> > would say things like 'the girls that are thought of as pretty at

> > this school would be nothing in a bigger school' and 'those girls

> > will be nothing when they get to college'. I mean, they totally

> > fostered a competitive spirit and a looks-based outlook. They

didn't

> > give me a sound, moral, wise, outlook on life at all. Looking

back

> > at some of the things that they said and did it sounds like their

> > point of view was very shallow, immature, and unwise. And that

the

> > way they thought to make me feel better was to put other people

> > down. And I didn't know that that was not right for a long time.

And

> > now I realize how Unhelpful that outlook was, and how it really

> > stunted me. For one thing, they told me when I got out of high

> > school and into the real world of college it would be like

walking

> > into Nirvana and things would be wonderful. Well, I had no social

> > skills, and autistic tendencies, which I wasn't aware of because

I'd

> > been at that school since 3rd grade and knew everyone. I got to

> > college and my everything collapsed. It was a nightmare. I didn't

> > know how to relate. I was a shy person so I'd always find an

> > extrovert and hook up with them and let them be the gatekeeper.

I am

> > only now just realizing I have done this my whole life. But

college

> > was a bust, I became chemically dependent and self-injured alot

and

> > was regarded as a 'freak'. I dropped out after sophomore year. I

was

> > barely functional until I got sober at 23. Oops this post has

gone

> > on forever.

> >

> > I guess what I am saying is I had zero sense of myself, and that

> > included looks. I believed I was either very hideous or very

> > attractive or both somehow. It was weird, the distortion I grew

up

> > with. 'Welcome to Oz' indeed.

> >

>

May 6, 2008

Good work! You sound like Marilyn Monroe, i love that look. I love dress up,

hair and makeup stuff too, but it doesn't make me ME!

I have green eyes like my nada (who looked like Jane Fonda when she wasn't

self abusing, over medicating etc) and she always told me how ugly my eyes

were because she wanted me to have big blue eyes like her dad. So, I thought

I had these puny little hideous bug eyes but now people tell me otherwise.

Weird thing to say to a little kid.

>

> I hadn't thought of my mother's weight as a form of 'self-abuse'.

> She is all over the map with her weight... lately it's been a

> constant stream of, " Oh, and I've lost another 2pounds " ... good for

> her but it's wierd... to hear her tell the story, she should be -129

> by now...

>

> I've always been told I was pretty (in a " use this as a weapon "

> sorta way) but it took until I was in my late 30's to NOT use it as

> a weapon or tool to get what I wanted from people. Oh, God, there

> it is... I have a very " classic look " (blonde hair, hourglass shape,

> blue eyes, fair skin)... I look like NEITHER of my parents... I'm

> either a recessive gene or someone elses kid (I always fantasized

> about that... if I wasn't really Nada's daughter, I wouldn't EVER

> be like her...). There's a lot tied into looks here...

>

> Took me a long, long time start making my brain work for me. I have

> always been in the " gifted " pool - imagine 'this' scenario... child

> moves constantly, always the 'new kid', always in " gifted " classes

> at the new school, always 'blonde/blue " , always shy and nervous,

> being sexually abused by whoever... what a combo. Anyway, as an

> adult I had to take ownership of my brains and make them work for

> me. I came to a point where I can now think, well if I get in a car

> wreck and lose my face and my body and my 'externals'... SO WHAT!?

> I still have 'me'.

>

> That said, I like to be " pretty " for my SO. I like to go girlie and

> play diva queen of the hair flip and dress up. It's a game and it's

> a toy but it's certainly not what defines me... SO likes that I have

> that attitude about it... he likes to watch me " dance " ... he knows

> it's been a long road for me to be free of my looks and just dip

> into them when I'm feeling " in a mood " ...

>

> As I get further away from using my appearance as a weapon of mass

> destruction my Nada is beginning to get critical of me with that

> topic. Apparently she's very upset that, as I get older, I'm going

> to lose my 'shiny looks' and therefore amount to nothing. She's

> worried that I'm wasting my time on SO (I won't marry him right

> now...) and I need to FIND SOMEONE WHO WILL SUPPORT ME WHEN I GET

> OLD LIKE HER (hello? I'll have a Doctoral degree within the year...

> don't need a man to take care of me)... egads.

>

> Doesn't matter if you're pretty or not... you're doomed either

> way...lol.

>

> Lynnette - When the wolves howl, make sure you're carrying a good

> purse!

>

> > >

> > > this is an issue for me too. My mother was sexually abused by

> her

> > > father and he always told her how 'special' she was. I think

> what he

> > > did besides the abuse was enabling; she believes this too, that

> the

> > > flipside of his abuse was to make her feel special and exempt

> > > somehow from certain aspects of life. And I think that my parents

> > > did that with me. They half the time told me I was very pretty,

> and

> > > then the other half my dad was always making me feel like I did

> not

> > > measure up. One thing that really messed me up was that when

> > > anything would happen at school, I would tell them and they would

> > > say that the other person with whom I had the problem was " just

> > > jealous " of me. Number one, it wasn't true every time, if ever,

> and

> > > number two, it didn't teach me a thing about relating to people

> or

> > > give me any information whatever about how to handle the

> situation

> > > or handle people when they are showing emotions that are not

> based

> > > in the actual facts of the situation. And that was something I

> > > needed desperately to learn. Sigh...I think my parents made me

> feel

> > > that I was more attractive as a child and teen than I actually

> was.

> > > And I am not sure why they did that. It's been a negative in my

> > > life. I related to your title 'confusion about looks' because I

> > > never had any gauge on how 'attractive' I was. Most of the time I

> > > felt very unnattractive. Or I was 'pretty' but in the wrong way.

> I

> > > didn't have the money for good clothes in college and I had no

> > > personality, or the wrong kind, so I felt hideous. And was

> treated

> > > pretty bad. It was a train wreck.

> > >

> > > Another thing that make me mad now was how they always talked

> > > about 'the real world' and how high school 'didn't count' and,

> they

> > > would say things like 'the girls that are thought of as pretty at

> > > this school would be nothing in a bigger school' and 'those girls

> > > will be nothing when they get to college'. I mean, they totally

> > > fostered a competitive spirit and a looks-based outlook. They

> didn't

> > > give me a sound, moral, wise, outlook on life at all. Looking

> back

> > > at some of the things that they said and did it sounds like their

> > > point of view was very shallow, immature, and unwise. And that

> the

> > > way they thought to make me feel better was to put other people

> > > down. And I didn't know that that was not right for a long time.

> And

> > > now I realize how Unhelpful that outlook was, and how it really

> > > stunted me. For one thing, they told me when I got out of high

> > > school and into the real world of college it would be like

> walking

> > > into Nirvana and things would be wonderful. Well, I had no social

> > > skills, and autistic tendencies, which I wasn't aware of because

> I'd

> > > been at that school since 3rd grade and knew everyone. I got to

> > > college and my everything collapsed. It was a nightmare. I didn't

> > > know how to relate. I was a shy person so I'd always find an

> > > extrovert and hook up with them and let them be the gatekeeper.

> I am

> > > only now just realizing I have done this my whole life. But

> college

> > > was a bust, I became chemically dependent and self-injured alot

> and

> > > was regarded as a 'freak'. I dropped out after sophomore year. I

> was

> > > barely functional until I got sober at 23. Oops this post has

> gone

> > > on forever.

> > >

> > > I guess what I am saying is I had zero sense of myself, and that

> > > included looks. I believed I was either very hideous or very

> > > attractive or both somehow. It was weird, the distortion I grew

> up

> > > with. 'Welcome to Oz' indeed.

> > >

> >

May 6, 2008

Totally a great topic!

This is so familiar - I was told I'd be so pretty IF I were thin, IF

I were taller, IF I " did my hair nice " , IF I dressed better (um, I

wasn't exactly dressing myself in 6th grade), etc. Like gs said,

they didn't want me to be vain - ha, fat chance. In high school nada

told me several times with absolute sincerity - tears in her eyes -

that I had the most beautiful eyebrows, like she was really bestowing

a compliment on me (and as if that was the most notable positive

characteristic she could find). I was dressed in double-knit

polyester pants & cafeteria lady smocks through 10th grade, and

usually only had only 1 pr pants & 2 tops to my name anyhow. Once I

lost weight as an adult, she harped on me constantly, " Are you

wearing THAT?! Is it supposed to look like THAT? " though I was

wearing stylish clothes that fit properly for the first time in my

life. Then, as I got to a size 12, she started in that I was too

thin, she was worried, and it became all about her. Her identity was

a thin mother of a fat daughter, and when I upset that balance all

hell broke loose.

Re: makeup, if I did anything more than wash my face with Ivory soap,

I thought I was " better " than everyone, acting like a movie star, and

who did I think I was? I didn't wear makeup at all until my late 20s

& even now (age 42) feel like a fraud - not all the time, mind you -

when I dress stylishly & wear makeup. Once in hs I bought a nice

dress to wear, nothing special, just something I liked & picked up at

JCPenney or something, and she freaked out, " You can't wear that to

school, that's for 'good' wear! " like I was going to school in a

velvet evening gown.

In my 20s I definitely had the hair of the week, different colors,

styles, etc. but that has settled down to a classic style which I

keep updated & maintained. I think some of that in my 20s was to see

if she would notice & compliment me which of course she never did

even though I always go to a pro and have a kickin' 'do! (Nada would

just slap on a wig rather than style or even WASH her hair - I swear

she looked like she had a dead animal on her head, bro & I used to

die with embarrassment.)

Nada, too, has weight issues, but except for after a prolonged period

on steroids, has always been thin. This makes her better than

everyone on the planet apparently since she doesn't " eat big " like

everyone else, doesn't need " all that food " . She basically starves

herself, eating a half a filet-o-fish each day & gets other family

memeber to feel sorry for her, thinking she can't afford food or is

ill, or otherwise has trouble with her appetite.

Re: mayalisa's post, I definitely got a large helping of " high school

isn't real life " too, that somehow the first would be made last and

the last, first, after graduation. It really stunted my emotional

growth & coping abilities to think I was better than everyone in

general because I was dressed like a street person & other girls wore

makeup - and basically that the objective social rules about

appearance & grooming didn't exist & could be ignored without

repercussion. Besides being juxtaposed onto a background of " but we

think you're a piece of shit. " Any problems with other students &

even teachers was because they were " goofy " and that was the end of

it. I still have a lot of difficulty relating to others & especially

dealing with conflict.

Anyway, I think most of this appearance stuff goes back to the fact

that BPs don't have a stable sense of self and end up unable to

perceive us in any stable way. Not that it helps or changes anything

now, but stability of all types is important to childhood development

and without that I think we're all left wandering and wondering, to

varying degrees, not really sure if we can call a spade a spade since

tomorrow it may be something else entirely - and that includes

ourselves.

Once again, great subject!

> >

> > this is an issue for me too. My mother was sexually abused by

her

> > father and he always told her how 'special' she was. I think what

he

> > did besides the abuse was enabling; she believes this too, that

the

> > flipside of his abuse was to make her feel special and exempt

> > somehow from certain aspects of life. And I think that my parents

> > did that with me. They half the time told me I was very pretty,

and

> > then the other half my dad was always making me feel like I did

not

> > measure up. One thing that really messed me up was that when

> > anything would happen at school, I would tell them and they would

> > say that the other person with whom I had the problem was " just

> > jealous " of me. Number one, it wasn't true every time, if ever,

and

> > number two, it didn't teach me a thing about relating to people or

> > give me any information whatever about how to handle the situation

> > or handle people when they are showing emotions that are not based

> > in the actual facts of the situation. And that was something I

> > needed desperately to learn. Sigh...I think my parents made me

feel

> > that I was more attractive as a child and teen than I actually

was.

> > And I am not sure why they did that. It's been a negative in my

> > life. I related to your title 'confusion about looks' because I

> > never had any gauge on how 'attractive' I was. Most of the time I

> > felt very unnattractive. Or I was 'pretty' but in the wrong way. I

> > didn't have the money for good clothes in college and I had no

> > personality, or the wrong kind, so I felt hideous. And was treated

> > pretty bad. It was a train wreck.

> >

> > Another thing that make me mad now was how they always talked

> > about 'the real world' and how high school 'didn't count' and,

they

> > would say things like 'the girls that are thought of as pretty at

> > this school would be nothing in a bigger school' and 'those girls

> > will be nothing when they get to college'. I mean, they totally

> > fostered a competitive spirit and a looks-based outlook. They

didn't

> > give me a sound, moral, wise, outlook on life at all. Looking back

> > at some of the things that they said and did it sounds like their

> > point of view was very shallow, immature, and unwise. And that the

> > way they thought to make me feel better was to put other people

> > down. And I didn't know that that was not right for a long time.

And

> > now I realize how Unhelpful that outlook was, and how it really

> > stunted me. For one thing, they told me when I got out of high

> > school and into the real world of college it would be like walking

> > into Nirvana and things would be wonderful. Well, I had no social

> > skills, and autistic tendencies, which I wasn't aware of because

I'd

> > been at that school since 3rd grade and knew everyone. I got to

> > college and my everything collapsed. It was a nightmare. I didn't

> > know how to relate. I was a shy person so I'd always find an

> > extrovert and hook up with them and let them be the gatekeeper. I

am

> > only now just realizing I have done this my whole life. But

college

> > was a bust, I became chemically dependent and self-injured alot

and

> > was regarded as a 'freak'. I dropped out after sophomore year. I

was

> > barely functional until I got sober at 23. Oops this post has gone

> > on forever.

> >

> > I guess what I am saying is I had zero sense of myself, and that

> > included looks. I believed I was either very hideous or very

> > attractive or both somehow. It was weird, the distortion I grew up

> > with. 'Welcome to Oz' indeed.

> >

>

May 6, 2008

oh lisa, the cafeteria smock thing made me laugh and so does the wig thing.

My nada " can't " wash her own hair and goes weekly to have it " done " by a

lady who will listen to her rant.

I also didn't have many clothes and my nada wouldn't wash them or let me

wash them. It was complicated. . .

>

> Totally a great topic!

>

> This is so familiar - I was told I'd be so pretty IF I were thin, IF

> I were taller, IF I " did my hair nice " , IF I dressed better (um, I

> wasn't exactly dressing myself in 6th grade), etc. Like gs said,

> they didn't want me to be vain - ha, fat chance. In high school nada

> told me several times with absolute sincerity - tears in her eyes -

> that I had the most beautiful eyebrows, like she was really bestowing

> a compliment on me (and as if that was the most notable positive

> characteristic she could find). I was dressed in double-knit

> polyester pants & cafeteria lady smocks through 10th grade, and

> usually only had only 1 pr pants & 2 tops to my name anyhow. Once I

> lost weight as an adult, she harped on me constantly, " Are you

> wearing THAT?! Is it supposed to look like THAT? " though I was

> wearing stylish clothes that fit properly for the first time in my

> life. Then, as I got to a size 12, she started in that I was too

> thin, she was worried, and it became all about her. Her identity was

> a thin mother of a fat daughter, and when I upset that balance all

> hell broke loose.

>

> Re: makeup, if I did anything more than wash my face with Ivory soap,

> I thought I was " better " than everyone, acting like a movie star, and

> who did I think I was? I didn't wear makeup at all until my late 20s

> & even now (age 42) feel like a fraud - not all the time, mind you -

> when I dress stylishly & wear makeup. Once in hs I bought a nice

> dress to wear, nothing special, just something I liked & picked up at

> JCPenney or something, and she freaked out, " You can't wear that to

> school, that's for 'good' wear! " like I was going to school in a

> velvet evening gown.

>

> In my 20s I definitely had the hair of the week, different colors,

> styles, etc. but that has settled down to a classic style which I

> keep updated & maintained. I think some of that in my 20s was to see

> if she would notice & compliment me which of course she never did

> even though I always go to a pro and have a kickin' 'do! (Nada would

> just slap on a wig rather than style or even WASH her hair - I swear

> she looked like she had a dead animal on her head, bro & I used to

> die with embarrassment.)

>

> Nada, too, has weight issues, but except for after a prolonged period

> on steroids, has always been thin. This makes her better than

> everyone on the planet apparently since she doesn't " eat big " like

> everyone else, doesn't need " all that food " . She basically starves

> herself, eating a half a filet-o-fish each day & gets other family

> memeber to feel sorry for her, thinking she can't afford food or is

> ill, or otherwise has trouble with her appetite.

>

> Re: mayalisa's post, I definitely got a large helping of " high school

> isn't real life " too, that somehow the first would be made last and

> the last, first, after graduation. It really stunted my emotional

> growth & coping abilities to think I was better than everyone in

> general because I was dressed like a street person & other girls wore

> makeup - and basically that the objective social rules about

> appearance & grooming didn't exist & could be ignored without

> repercussion. Besides being juxtaposed onto a background of " but we

> think you're a piece of shit. " Any problems with other students &

> even teachers was because they were " goofy " and that was the end of

> it. I still have a lot of difficulty relating to others & especially

> dealing with conflict.

>

> Anyway, I think most of this appearance stuff goes back to the fact

> that BPs don't have a stable sense of self and end up unable to

> perceive us in any stable way. Not that it helps or changes anything

> now, but stability of all types is important to childhood development

> and without that I think we're all left wandering and wondering, to

> varying degrees, not really sure if we can call a spade a spade since

> tomorrow it may be something else entirely - and that includes

> ourselves.

>

> Once again, great subject!

>

> > >

> > > this is an issue for me too. My mother was sexually abused by

> her

> > > father and he always told her how 'special' she was. I think what

> he

> > > did besides the abuse was enabling; she believes this too, that

> the

> > > flipside of his abuse was to make her feel special and exempt

> > > somehow from certain aspects of life. And I think that my parents

> > > did that with me. They half the time told me I was very pretty,

> and

> > > then the other half my dad was always making me feel like I did

> not

> > > measure up. One thing that really messed me up was that when

> > > anything would happen at school, I would tell them and they would

> > > say that the other person with whom I had the problem was " just

> > > jealous " of me. Number one, it wasn't true every time, if ever,

> and

> > > number two, it didn't teach me a thing about relating to people or

> > > give me any information whatever about how to handle the situation

> > > or handle people when they are showing emotions that are not based

> > > in the actual facts of the situation. And that was something I

> > > needed desperately to learn. Sigh...I think my parents made me

> feel

> > > that I was more attractive as a child and teen than I actually

> was.

> > > And I am not sure why they did that. It's been a negative in my

> > > life. I related to your title 'confusion about looks' because I

> > > never had any gauge on how 'attractive' I was. Most of the time I

> > > felt very unnattractive. Or I was 'pretty' but in the wrong way. I

> > > didn't have the money for good clothes in college and I had no

> > > personality, or the wrong kind, so I felt hideous. And was treated

> > > pretty bad. It was a train wreck.

> > >

> > > Another thing that make me mad now was how they always talked

> > > about 'the real world' and how high school 'didn't count' and,

> they

> > > would say things like 'the girls that are thought of as pretty at

> > > this school would be nothing in a bigger school' and 'those girls

> > > will be nothing when they get to college'. I mean, they totally

> > > fostered a competitive spirit and a looks-based outlook. They

> didn't

> > > give me a sound, moral, wise, outlook on life at all. Looking back

> > > at some of the things that they said and did it sounds like their

> > > point of view was very shallow, immature, and unwise. And that the

> > > way they thought to make me feel better was to put other people

> > > down. And I didn't know that that was not right for a long time.

> And

> > > now I realize how Unhelpful that outlook was, and how it really

> > > stunted me. For one thing, they told me when I got out of high

> > > school and into the real world of college it would be like walking

> > > into Nirvana and things would be wonderful. Well, I had no social

> > > skills, and autistic tendencies, which I wasn't aware of because

> I'd

> > > been at that school since 3rd grade and knew everyone. I got to

> > > college and my everything collapsed. It was a nightmare. I didn't

> > > know how to relate. I was a shy person so I'd always find an

> > > extrovert and hook up with them and let them be the gatekeeper. I

> am

> > > only now just realizing I have done this my whole life. But

> college

> > > was a bust, I became chemically dependent and self-injured alot

> and

> > > was regarded as a 'freak'. I dropped out after sophomore year. I

> was

> > > barely functional until I got sober at 23. Oops this post has gone

> > > on forever.

> > >

> > > I guess what I am saying is I had zero sense of myself, and that

> > > included looks. I believed I was either very hideous or very

> > > attractive or both somehow. It was weird, the distortion I grew up

> > > with. 'Welcome to Oz' indeed.

> > >

> >

May 6, 2008

My mother's thing about my looks was more like " you're pretty, but... "

My face was " too wide " so I always needed " height " to my hair.

(Hairspray anyone?) And I never wore enough makeup. My mom and I

actually got into a fight on the way to the studio to take my senior

yearbook picture because she thought I wasn't wearing enough makeup.

My clothes were always wrong. I didn't dress to " flatter myself " .

And she watched every morsel of food I put in my mouth, always afraid

I'd end up fat like my grandmother.

The upshot of all this was that even though my mother actually said I

was pretty, I felt fat, ugly and frumpy. (And I was most definitely

not fat. I couldn't donate blood during high school [we had a blood

drive most years] because I didn't weigh enough.)

I always got the feeling that I had to " do something " to be acceptably

attractive. I had to hide ugliness behind flattering clothes, beehive

hair, and 6 inches of makeup. I wasn't good enough as I was.

Considering my mom's obsession with appearances, (lying about herself

to make herself look impressive, among other things) this was not

surprising. It was always about the glitter, not the gold.

It wasn't til I was in my late twenties that I had a light bulb

moment. I look like my mother. A LOT like her. We've been called

clones. And if she thought I had to " do something " to be acceptably

attractive, if she thought I had to hide my true self, if she thought

I wasn't good enough as I was, and I LOOK LIKE HER, what does that say

about what she thinks of herself?

Aha!

I'd finally figured out projection, even if I didn't know what to call

it then. It was after this that I started truly developing my own

style. I learned what looks good on me and what doesn't. (It's not

always what she said either, but I admit she was right about some

things. Like shorter jackets and autumn colors) I've learned what I

like and what I don't. I learned a few things that she never taught me

(Like don't wear a long full skirt with flats. You'll look like

you're standing in a hole.) It helped that I'd moved out by that time

and would soon put 3000 miles between us.

It also helped that I found a guy who thinks I'm pretty as is. He

likes my hair long even though that precludes having much height to

it. When I tell him my face is too wide, he looks at me like I have

suddenly sprouted an extra head. He LIKES my wide spaced cheekbones.

Everyone's taste is different. Beauty is truly in the eye of the

beholder.

Moral: Don't be afraid of the mirror. Learn your own strengths and

weaknesses. And take mom's preachments with a hefty grain of salt.

May 7, 2008

jjfan said

but her mirror obviously reflects her image differently...for my

birthday I got an XL pair of pajamas. I'm not an XL...but it's her

perception of who I am...

Nada totally did this, although with my daughter more than me. Once

nada had a pair of pants she didn't want any longer & offerred them

to my daughter " in case [she] ever lost weight " - of course daughter

just slipped them on & they fit perfectly! - at which point Nada

wanted them back. We never saw them again!

....she always liked the haircut before the current one I had...

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

gs...I do think changing hairstyles frequently could be a flea left

over & like the idea of self-image abuse, it totally fits...on a

possibly related note, have any of you ever wanted to shave your

head (or actually done it)? I never did it, but especially during

periods when Nada was seriously crawling up my behind, I would have

a strong urge to just take a razor to my head. I suspect this has to

do with wanting to wrest control from her & assert myself or maybe a

cheap, safe imitation of cutting (which I only did during jr high)?

....the other little girls in my neighborhood' s mothers went to

great pains to make them look cute...

really struck a chord too. At 22 I stayed a week with dad on the

other side of the country. His wife took me shopping, bought me a

beautiful, flattering pink blouse & denim skirt, necklace (which I

still have 20 years later), etc. - a whole ensemble, and some frou-

frou bath stuff too. It occurred to me then that I had NEVER had

such an experience with Nada. In fact, quite the opposite. If I

were narrowed down to 2 selections in the dressing room, she would

insist the one I liked best on me actually looked bad & basically

pitch a fit until I abandoned the purchase - and insist with equal

force that something which looked appalling actually looked great.

It took me to age 25 to quit falling for it. Same weird thing with

my hair - I was always told to part my hair at the left since it

was " thin " on the right side & " needed balancing out " (even my hair

is defective), but it usually hung in my face. Of course my natural

part is on the right & as far as I can tell, is pretty evenly

distributed around my head! What gives????????

She always cut my hair herself or found someone else equally

unsuitable to do it - my personal favorite being a woman from church

whose husband was a barber (and not a good one at that - glad she

didn't know a doctor's wife.) The post about paying the person who

will let her rant the most do her hair also is familiar, except Nada

does it with housekeepers. My daughter & I, after seeing how filthy

the house was even with someone coming in 2-3x a week in an

efficiency apartment, finally came to the conclusion that the

housekeeper was more of a " paid friend " .

Sorry to keep droning on, but I just can't get over how similar BPDs

are!!!

May 10, 2008

I'm totally afraid of the beach or swimming. Because, if anyone

finds one flaw I'm afraid I'll be labeled forever. I actually had a

really nice body, I learned later. But, nothing like this obvious

when you are raised by a BPD.

>

> Yes a great topic

> My nada made my clothes, very uniform like and always a little too

tight or she'd put buttons on when i'd said I didn't want them with

the following " it took me so much time to cover them by hand " etc, etc

I loved the fat daughter, thin nada thing. All 3 of us girls became

anorexic and started dressing well, followed by all 3 getting fat and

wearing bag rags. Body image is a touchy subject, I'm now afraid to

go to the beach as I've been brought up with the negative comparision

thing, I even wonder if my body responds to this and becomes

undesirable in comparison to imagined competition.

> I was so worried about being depressed with all these memories yet

the relief at sharing is so surrealistic that I've rediscovered my

sense of the absurd.

> TC

>

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May 10, 2008

Shopping was torment. We would shop together for hours to buy me one

outfit...She would always ask my opinion but, not care. She had to

choose it. And nothing was ever good enough. Then, she'd scream at

me and fly into rages. Because, she said that something was wrong

with me. That I was impossible to shop for. And after all she'd

done for me...blah, blah.

It was absolute hell. She finally took me to a therapist because, I

was shopping " retarded. " Or, so she thought. The therapist

immediately told her that it was not my fault. It was her problem.

Of course, we never went back. I was afraid to go anyways. Afraid

of the after therapy monstor coming out of my NADA.