Re: Keeping up with it

[Guest guest]

Welcome to the merry-go-round. I suspect your experience isn't unlike that of most of us when it comes to staying on the straight and narrow. It's damned hard work! And all too often we wonder if it is worth it. My personal experience is similar, too. I am off and on the 'wagon' from day to day -- the 'wagon' being my willingness to suffer what there is to suffer or my rebellion against it. And then I will argue, 'if I were able to practise Act, then I probably wouldn't need to', much like once, in my adolescence, wanting to kill myself, I argued, 'if I had the courage to kill myself, then I probably wouldn't need to'.Ah, the mind, that wonderful/damnable instrument that makes all pleasure and pain possible, and sometimes even mistakes one for the other.Sometimes I am so lost, I have only my willingness to go on to sustain me. So far, that's been enough. If one has that, then there are possibilities.Meanwhile, be kind to yourself, no matter how silly the form that kindness takes may seem.Best wishes,Detlef >> Hey everybody, > > I've been doing (or trying to do) the ACT thing for about 6 months now, and I just want to know if anybody else has the problem I'm having?> > That is, well, I'm finding it really hard to keep going with it consistently. I'll be able to observe and defuse from my anxiety and make myself do things I want to (i.e. study/diet) for about a couple of days, but then its like I forget everything I've learned and go back into old habits of avoidance etc for a week. Then I remember "oh shit, that's right, I've gotta be mindful and all that" and get back on top for another couple of days before I "forget" all over again. > > My progress has been really sporadic and its really frustrating. It's also really frustrating that I only seem to be able to be mindful/whatever for a period of 2 - 3 days before I'm back to experiential avoidance for a week or two. > > I told this to my therapist, but she just says "you gotta manage yourself with a diary/practice defusion/practice mindfulness/observe yourself" etc, but my problem is I do this for a bit then I 'forget' to do any of it for ages. I'm aware that this 'forgetting' is probably me not catching myself out in my old habits and then getting caught up in procrastinating/whatever till I become aware of that again, but how do I stop myself doing that? I know its observation and defusion, but how do I get better at that? Cause I feel like I'm really weak at it.> I know its probably a thing you get better at with practice. Initially when I started, with increasing practice I kept getting better, but I've been at this for 6 months and its been ages since I got any better. I feel like I've plateaued and its at a point that's well below where I wanna be. > > How can I improve? How do you guys manage yourselves consistently? How do you keep up with/practice mindfulness etc? > > Does this question even make sense (I really had trouble with putting my problem into words)?>

[Guest guest]

hi, i am so glad you posted. I mean I am sorry you are going through what you

are going through, and it sounds very familiar to me.

it feels so insane to be able to 'report' to therapist and doctor how well I am

doing, finally on track, and then to have it all fall apart, being accused of

'looking for reasons to stay sick'. etc. I know i wrote earlier in a different

post that it takes practice and change is uncomfortable...and it is very very

difficult to keep practicing, it is HARD!! to try and 'just do it', 'keep on

keeping on', all the trite, supposed encouraging, motivating sayings.

similiar to your therapist's suggestion of a diary, my advice was 'set yourself

a schedule and stick to it'. you see, that's the whole point, it appears I

can't set a schedule and stick to it'. then the can't is explained as really

meaning 'won't. ......

>

> Hey everybody,

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks it made me feel better to think everyone does this and its not just me

being bad at it. I guess, even in my down periods, I still have the willingness

to go with it, so hopefully that means I'll get better eventually

> >

> > Hey everybody,

> >

> > I've been doing (or trying to do) the ACT thing for about 6 months

> now, and I just want to know if anybody else has the problem I'm having?

> >

> > That is, well, I'm finding it really hard to keep going with it

> consistently. I'll be able to observe and defuse from my anxiety and

> make myself do things I want to (i.e. study/diet) for about a couple of

> days, but then its like I forget everything I've learned and go back

> into old habits of avoidance etc for a week. Then I remember " oh shit,

> that's right, I've gotta be mindful and all that " and get back on top

> for another couple of days before I " forget " all over again.

> >

> > My progress has been really sporadic and its really frustrating. It's

> also really frustrating that I only seem to be able to be

> mindful/whatever for a period of 2 - 3 days before I'm back to

> experiential avoidance for a week or two.

> >

> > I told this to my therapist, but she just says " you gotta manage

> yourself with a diary/practice defusion/practice mindfulness/observe

> yourself " etc, but my problem is I do this for a bit then I 'forget' to

> do any of it for ages. I'm aware that this 'forgetting' is probably me

> not catching myself out in my old habits and then getting caught up in

> procrastinating/whatever till I become aware of that again, but how do I

> stop myself doing that? I know its observation and defusion, but how do

> I get better at that? Cause I feel like I'm really weak at it.

> > I know its probably a thing you get better at with practice. Initially

> when I started, with increasing practice I kept getting better, but I've

> been at this for 6 months and its been ages since I got any better. I

> feel like I've plateaued and its at a point that's well below where I

> wanna be.

> >

> > How can I improve? How do you guys manage yourselves consistently? How

> do you keep up with/practice mindfulness etc?

> >

> > Does this question even make sense (I really had trouble with putting

> my problem into words)?

> >

>

[Guest guest]

" my advice was 'set yourself a schedule and stick to it'. you see, that's the

whole point, it appears I can't set a schedule and stick to it'. then the can't

is explained as really meaning 'won't. ...... "

YOU SAID IT!!!! Man I have so much sympathy for you here, this is EXACTLY how it

is for me! Ugh, and you're so right about reporting to the therapists etc - a

lot of times I go during an " up " period and then it feels like it all falls

apart afterward. Though obviously its heaps worse for you, with your pain and

all

I'm glad to hear you find the whole practicing " just keep on with it " thing a

struggle too though, makes me feel like its not just me being bad at it

Though obviously, I am sorry it's tough for you!

> >

> > Hey everybody,

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, I have only been at this (ACT) for a short while but can definitely relate

to this discussion. I think my advice to myself has been to continue to clarify

the values and " committed action " part of the practice and to make sure to do at

least one tiny thing every day (if at all possible) that is on track with those

values. We spend so much time working on this relationship with our fears and

pain and sorrow and all this difficult stuff, no wonder it feels like work! So,

if you can clarify even the tiniest tangible thing in the world that is

connected in some way to what you really, truly value in life, it's sort of like

watering the seeds you're planting for the life you truly want to be living. I

hope this doesn't sound incredibly cheesy. And the more you can remember to do

those things for yourself, it's like you're creating new habits and getting used

to actually being able to do these enjoyable things despite getting sucked into

old habits as well, as is inevitable when you're attempting to retrain yourself.

Best of luck with it all and take care!

> > >

> > > Hey everybody,

> > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

It sounds like you may be just where you need to be.Some assorted thoughts:Helps me and my recovery friends to do a daily routine such a simple morning prayer to my higher power, asking for guidance.And a gratitude journal or just a daily list of things, even tiny things.Every little bit of joy, newness, success let in. Try to let go of grading yourself with a measuring stick which adds to self-deprecation and objectification "I'm below where I want to be". Avoidance behavior brings on many secondary gains (on some levels they really work) so it's very tricky

stuff. And if you've been doing it for a while it will take time to let them go in favor of behavior that isvalue oriented. Put in place the reverse compass and do whatever small contrary valued behavior you can every day. Any little thing that is new, a stretch, valued. The self-compassion practices in Neff's book are helping me.I don't know how you are using defusing, but it's not designed to "make yourself do things". And don't know what you mean by "I gotta be mindful and all that".Sounds like some toxic 'shoulding' going on! I don't know how you are defining mindfulness.....hard to read..but almost sounds

like you're trying to beat yourself into a mindful state. If you do that, you'll just flip back and forth like a seal. It's not avoidance vs. mindfulness...its stepping with your values more and more of the time.Most of all give yourself the gift of time. Adopt that curious beginners mind every day. Be willing to drop the rope more and more. Experiment with lots of exercises from the books. Make up your own. If you are going to choose your avoidance behavior, at least do so with your eyes open and watch what happens. Not with judgment though! And know you aren't alone...I'm fortunate in that I do have AA where with it's imperfections, it's an amazing free supportive compassionate place where I get to go for an hour or two or three a week and just let it all out. Even if I don't say a word, I am struck almost always

by something in there, some space. Most amazing things happen in that hour..I think it has something to do with the mutual sharing of realizing our limitations and sharing our pain, our triumphs together. So find support groups if you can. I'm having trouble with my computer keyboard so sorry if this sounds a bit choppy!good luck and hold lightly,terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 9:56 PM Subject: Keeping up with it

Hey everybody,

I've been doing (or trying to do) the ACT thing for about 6 months now, and I just want to know if anybody else has the problem I'm having?

That is, well, I'm finding it really hard to keep going with it consistently. I'll be able to observe and defuse from my anxiety and make myself do things I want to (i.e. study/diet) for about a couple of days, but then its like I forget everything I've learned and go back into old habits of avoidance etc for a week. Then I remember "oh shit, that's right, I've gotta be mindful and all that" and get back on top for another couple of days before I "forget" all over again.

My progress has been really sporadic and its really frustrating. It's also really frustrating that I only seem to be able to be mindful/whatever for a period of 2 - 3 days before I'm back to experiential avoidance for a week or two.

I told this to my therapist, but she just says "you gotta manage yourself with a diary/practice defusion/practice mindfulness/observe yourself" etc, but my problem is I do this for a bit then I 'forget' to do any of it for ages. I'm aware that this 'forgetting' is probably me not catching myself out in my old habits and then getting caught up in procrastinating/whatever till I become aware of that again, but how do I stop myself doing that? I know its observation and defusion, but how do I get better at that? Cause I feel like I'm really weak at it.

I know its probably a thing you get better at with practice. Initially when I started, with increasing practice I kept getting better, but I've been at this for 6 months and its been ages since I got any better. I feel like I've plateaued and its at a point that's well below where I wanna be.

How can I improve? How do you guys manage yourselves consistently? How do you keep up with/practice mindfulness etc?

Does this question even make sense (I really had trouble with putting my problem into words)?

[Guest guest]

BTW, when I say the avoidance works on some levels I mean "work" very loosely, in that they provide some key functions physically and emotionally.For me, my drinking provided temporary relief, a warm feeling. That unfortunately evaporated as writes as quickly as adrop of water on a hot summer sidewalk. And..as has said (paraphrasing!)...costs... Huge..consequences like consistently dragging myself and others to the ground.In the long run, the avoidance behaviors mostly don't work or we wouldn't be suffering so. Here are other sneaky secondary gains of avoidance behavior (not just alcohol/drugs)..The behavior can include

overeating, gambling, hoarding, shopping, excessive internet use, excessive/obsessive rumination/regret/rehashing with past, excessive planning/rehearsing for future, excessive arguing/debating.Some seductive, life-sucking goodies I've noted:Momentary feeling of being right, being in control. Less ambivalence in terms of what this moment, this day will bring me..I'll force my will on it and decide, maybe even create drama..anything rather than sit in that uncomfortable ambiguity. Believing as though I've truly accomplished something with all the behavior--this has been especially tricky for me. Especially learning to deal with the sadness in realizing I wasted precious moments..."we do not regret the past, nor do we shut the door on it".

All of these go on my AA Step 1 (and then Step 4) list where I admit just how unmanageable my life is..a good place for my suffering inventory in ACT terms. Hope that makes sense and helps others.terry To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 8:40 AM Subject: Re: Keeping up with it

It sounds like you may be just where you need to be.Some assorted thoughts:Helps me and my recovery friends to do a daily routine such a simple morning prayer to my higher power, asking for guidance.And a gratitude journal or just a daily list of things, even tiny things.Every little bit of joy, newness, success let in. Try to let go of grading yourself with a measuring stick which adds to self-deprecation and objectification "I'm below where I want to be". Avoidance behavior brings on many secondary gains (on some levels they really work) so it's very tricky

stuff. And if you've been doing it for a while it will take time to let them go in favor of behavior that isvalue oriented. Put in place the reverse compass and do whatever small contrary valued behavior you can every day. Any little thing that is new, a stretch, valued. The self-compassion practices in Neff's book are helping me.I don't know how you are using defusing, but it's not designed to "make yourself do things". And don't know what you mean by "I gotta be mindful and all that".Sounds like some toxic 'shoulding' going on! I don't know how you are defining mindfulness.....hard to read..but almost sounds

like you're trying to beat yourself into a mindful state. If you do that, you'll just flip back and forth like a seal. It's not avoidance vs. mindfulness...its stepping with your values more and more of the time.Most of all give yourself the gift of time. Adopt that curious beginners mind every day. Be willing to drop the rope more and more. Experiment with lots of exercises from the books. Make up your own. If you are going to choose your avoidance behavior, at least do so with your eyes open and watch what happens. Not with judgment though! And know you aren't alone...I'm fortunate in that I do have AA where with it's imperfections, it's an amazing free supportive compassionate place where I get to go for an hour or two or three a week and just let it all out. Even if I don't say a word, I am struck almost always

by something in there, some space. Most amazing things happen in that hour..I think it has something to do with the mutual sharing of realizing our limitations and sharing our pain, our triumphs together. So find support groups if you can. I'm having trouble with my computer keyboard so sorry if this sounds a bit choppy!good luck and hold lightly,terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 9:56 PM Subject: Keeping up with it

Hey everybody,

I've been doing (or trying to do) the ACT thing for about 6 months now, and I just want to know if anybody else has the problem I'm having?

That is, well, I'm finding it really hard to keep going with it consistently. I'll be able to observe and defuse from my anxiety and make myself do things I want to (i.e. study/diet) for about a couple of days, but then its like I forget everything I've learned and go back into old habits of avoidance etc for a week. Then I remember "oh shit, that's right, I've gotta be mindful and all that" and get back on top for another couple of days before I "forget" all over again.

My progress has been really sporadic and its really frustrating. It's also really frustrating that I only seem to be able to be mindful/whatever for a period of 2 - 3 days before I'm back to experiential avoidance for a week or two.

I told this to my therapist, but she just says "you gotta manage yourself with a diary/practice defusion/practice mindfulness/observe yourself" etc, but my problem is I do this for a bit then I 'forget' to do any of it for ages. I'm aware that this 'forgetting' is probably me not catching myself out in my old habits and then getting caught up in procrastinating/whatever till I become aware of that again, but how do I stop myself doing that? I know its observation and defusion, but how do I get better at that? Cause I feel like I'm really weak at it.

I know its probably a thing you get better at with practice. Initially when I started, with increasing practice I kept getting better, but I've been at this for 6 months and its been ages since I got any better. I feel like I've plateaued and its at a point that's well below where I wanna be.

How can I improve? How do you guys manage yourselves consistently? How do you keep up with/practice mindfulness etc?

Does this question even make sense (I really had trouble with putting my problem into words)?

[Guest guest]

Hmm...some of these would be primary functions...the relief, warm feeling, the rushThe secondary reinforces start to take on a life of their own where it feels like doing something truly valued, meaningful, e.g.,Shopping/returning; Yelling, acting out /apologizing, regretting it; Severe dieting/binge eating...that kind of thing where there is lots of doing, undoing over and over. From: Theresa Linder

To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 10:47 AM Subject: Re: Keeping up with it

BTW, when I say the avoidance works on some levels I mean "work" very loosely, in that they provide some key functions physically and emotionally.For me, my drinking provided temporary relief, a warm feeling. That unfortunately evaporated as writes as quickly as adrop of water on a hot summer sidewalk. And..as has said (paraphrasing!)...costs... Huge..consequences like consistently dragging myself and others to the ground.In the long run, the avoidance behaviors mostly don't work or we wouldn't be suffering so. Here are other sneaky secondary gains of avoidance behavior (not just alcohol/drugs)..The behavior can include

overeating, gambling, hoarding, shopping, excessive internet use, excessive/obsessive rumination/regret/rehashing with past, excessive planning/rehearsing for future, excessive arguing/debating.Some seductive, life-sucking goodies I've noted:Momentary feeling of being right, being in control. Less ambivalence in terms of what this moment, this day will bring me..I'll force my will on it and decide, maybe even create drama..anything rather than sit in that uncomfortable ambiguity. Believing as though I've truly accomplished something with all the behavior--this has been especially tricky for me. Especially learning to deal with the sadness in realizing I wasted precious moments..."we do not regret the past, nor do we shut the door on it".

All of these go on my AA Step 1 (and then Step 4) list where I admit just how unmanageable my life is..a good place for my suffering inventory in ACT terms. Hope that makes sense and helps others.terry To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 8:40 AM Subject: Re: Keeping up with it

It sounds like you may be just where you need to be.Some assorted thoughts:Helps me and my recovery friends to do a daily routine such a simple morning prayer to my higher power, asking for guidance.And a gratitude journal or just a daily list of things, even tiny things.Every little bit of joy, newness, success let in. Try to let go of grading yourself with a measuring stick which adds to self-deprecation and objectification "I'm below where I want to be". Avoidance behavior brings on many secondary gains (on some levels they really work) so it's very tricky

stuff. And if you've been doing it for a while it will take time to let them go in favor of behavior that isvalue oriented. Put in place the reverse compass and do whatever small contrary valued behavior you can every day. Any little thing that is new, a stretch, valued. The self-compassion practices in Neff's book are helping me.I don't know how you are using defusing, but it's not designed to "make yourself do things". And don't know what you mean by "I gotta be mindful and all that".Sounds like some toxic 'shoulding' going on! I don't know how you are defining mindfulness.....hard to read..but almost sounds

like you're trying to beat yourself into a mindful state. If you do that, you'll just flip back and forth like a seal. It's not avoidance vs. mindfulness...its stepping with your values more and more of the time.Most of all give yourself the gift of time. Adopt that curious beginners mind every day. Be willing to drop the rope more and more. Experiment with lots of exercises from the books. Make up your own. If you are going to choose your avoidance behavior, at least do so with your eyes open and watch what happens. Not with judgment though! And know you aren't alone...I'm fortunate in that I do have AA where with it's imperfections, it's an amazing free supportive compassionate place where I get to go for an hour or two or three a week and just let it all out. Even if I don't say a word, I am struck almost always

by something in there, some space. Most amazing things happen in that hour..I think it has something to do with the mutual sharing of realizing our limitations and sharing our pain, our triumphs together. So find support groups if you can. I'm having trouble with my computer keyboard so sorry if this sounds a bit choppy!good luck and hold lightly,terry To:

ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 9:56 PM Subject: Keeping up with it

Hey everybody,

I've been doing (or trying to do) the ACT thing for about 6 months now, and I just want to know if anybody else has the problem I'm having?

That is, well, I'm finding it really hard to keep going with it consistently. I'll be able to observe and defuse from my anxiety and make myself do things I want to (i.e. study/diet) for about a couple of days, but then its like I forget everything I've learned and go back into old habits of avoidance etc for a week. Then I remember "oh shit, that's right, I've gotta be mindful and all that" and get back on top for another couple of days before I "forget" all over again.

My progress has been really sporadic and its really frustrating. It's also really frustrating that I only seem to be able to be mindful/whatever for a period of 2 - 3 days before I'm back to experiential avoidance for a week or two.

I told this to my therapist, but she just says "you gotta manage yourself with a diary/practice defusion/practice mindfulness/observe yourself" etc, but my problem is I do this for a bit then I 'forget' to do any of it for ages. I'm aware that this 'forgetting' is probably me not catching myself out in my old habits and then getting caught up in procrastinating/whatever till I become aware of that again, but how do I stop myself doing that? I know its observation and defusion, but how do I get better at that? Cause I feel like I'm really weak at it.

I know its probably a thing you get better at with practice. Initially when I started, with increasing practice I kept getting better, but I've been at this for 6 months and its been ages since I got any better. I feel like I've plateaued and its at a point that's well below where I wanna be.

How can I improve? How do you guys manage yourselves consistently? How do you keep up with/practice mindfulness etc?

Does this question even make sense (I really had trouble with putting my problem into words)?

[Guest guest]

Does this help you at all? It's hard to know how to help others with just words on the page. I feel pretty helpless here most of the time. To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 8:40 AM Subject: Re: Keeping up with it

It sounds like you may be just where you need to be.Some assorted thoughts:Helps me and my recovery friends to do a daily routine such a simple morning prayer to my higher power, asking for guidance.And a gratitude journal or just a daily list of things, even tiny things.Every little bit of joy, newness, success let in. Try to let go of grading yourself with a measuring stick which adds to self-deprecation and objectification "I'm below where I want to be". Avoidance behavior brings on many secondary gains (on some levels they really work) so it's very tricky

stuff. And if you've been doing it for a while it will take time to let them go in favor of behavior that isvalue oriented. Put in place the reverse compass and do whatever small contrary valued behavior you can every day. Any little thing that is new, a stretch, valued. The self-compassion practices in Neff's book are helping me.I don't know how you are using defusing, but it's not designed to "make yourself do things". And don't know what you mean by "I gotta be mindful and all that".Sounds like some toxic 'shoulding' going on! I don't know how you are defining mindfulness.....hard to read..but almost sounds

like you're trying to beat yourself into a mindful state. If you do that, you'll just flip back and forth like a seal. It's not avoidance vs. mindfulness...its stepping with your values more and more of the time.Most of all give yourself the gift of time. Adopt that curious beginners mind every day. Be willing to drop the rope more and more. Experiment with lots of exercises from the books. Make up your own. If you are going to choose your avoidance behavior, at least do so with your eyes open and watch what happens. Not with judgment though! And know you aren't alone...I'm fortunate in that I do have AA where with it's imperfections, it's an amazing free supportive compassionate place where I get to go for an hour or two or three a week and just let it all out. Even if I don't say a word, I am struck almost always

by something in there, some space. Most amazing things happen in that hour..I think it has something to do with the mutual sharing of realizing our limitations and sharing our pain, our triumphs together. So find support groups if you can. I'm having trouble with my computer keyboard so sorry if this sounds a bit choppy!good luck and hold lightly,terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 9:56 PM Subject: Keeping up with it

Hey everybody,

I've been doing (or trying to do) the ACT thing for about 6 months now, and I just want to know if anybody else has the problem I'm having?

That is, well, I'm finding it really hard to keep going with it consistently. I'll be able to observe and defuse from my anxiety and make myself do things I want to (i.e. study/diet) for about a couple of days, but then its like I forget everything I've learned and go back into old habits of avoidance etc for a week. Then I remember "oh shit, that's right, I've gotta be mindful and all that" and get back on top for another couple of days before I "forget" all over again.

My progress has been really sporadic and its really frustrating. It's also really frustrating that I only seem to be able to be mindful/whatever for a period of 2 - 3 days before I'm back to experiential avoidance for a week or two.

I told this to my therapist, but she just says "you gotta manage yourself with a diary/practice defusion/practice mindfulness/observe yourself" etc, but my problem is I do this for a bit then I 'forget' to do any of it for ages. I'm aware that this 'forgetting' is probably me not catching myself out in my old habits and then getting caught up in procrastinating/whatever till I become aware of that again, but how do I stop myself doing that? I know its observation and defusion, but how do I get better at that? Cause I feel like I'm really weak at it.

I know its probably a thing you get better at with practice. Initially when I started, with increasing practice I kept getting better, but I've been at this for 6 months and its been ages since I got any better. I feel like I've plateaued and its at a point that's well below where I wanna be.

How can I improve? How do you guys manage yourselves consistently? How do you keep up with/practice mindfulness etc?

Does this question even make sense (I really had trouble with putting my problem into words)?

[Guest guest]

Nice Terry! I was sitting at the beach a few days ago. Relaxing but also worrying (another addiction) - and I suddenly could sense an alternative. Like another way of living. Taking it slow. Not pushing myself past a natural want for activity. I believe this is my valued life. On the other hand, when I fill myself with worrying, or checking things out (on e-mail, facebook, twitter.. you name it) or pushing myself like crazy, I'm filled from head to toe and beyond with a kind of dull fullness. It's very familiar, scary... The funny thing is: how can it be so addictive when it's also so uncomfortable and scary?Maybe another way to put it:I heard someone say that your fear of (pain) is nothing compared to your fear of love.So I guess I'm terrified of this calm and relaxed life filled with love for myself and others. Can't we all encourage each other to go towards a calm, relaxed and loving life?Can't we also support each other when we get stuck in addiction, over activation, frantic pursuit, isolation? I mean - not giving up on ourselves or on others when we or them get stuck in it and believe it's the only way and that a loving, relaxed life is just a silly day dream.I heard a nice metaphor once: that we have a big plastic fabric over our heads with electric lights that act as stars. We then believe they are the the real stars. It's not so, beyond the electric lamps and plastic fabric, there's the real sky with shining stars. Let's not fool ourselves or giving up. A life filled with addictions and frantic behavior is the same as staring at a plastic fabric with fake stars. Without support and community, we will never be able to see the real sky, I think. That's why I enjoy this listserve.Does it make sense?Warmly,Henrik BTW, when I say the avoidance works on some levels I mean "work" veryloosely, in that they provide some key functions physically andemotionally.For me, my drinking provided temporary relief, a warm feeling. Thatunfortunately evaporated as writes as quickly as adrop of water on a hot summer sidewalk. And..as has said(paraphrasing!)...costs... Huge..consequences like consistently draggingmyself and others to the ground.In the long run, the avoidance behaviors mostly don't work or wewouldn't be suffering so.Here are other sneaky secondary gains of avoidance behavior (not justalcohol/drugs)..The behavior can include overeating, gambling, hoarding,shopping, excessive internet use, excessive/obsessiverumination/regret/rehashing with past,excessive planning/rehearsing forfuture, excessive arguing/debating.Some seductive, life-sucking goodies I've noted:Momentary feeling of being right, being in control.Less ambivalence in terms of what this moment, this day will bringme..I'll force my will on it and decide, maybe even createdrama..anything rather than sit in that uncomfortable ambiguity.Believing as though I've truly accomplished something with all thebehavior--this has been especially tricky for me. Especially learning todeal with the sadness in realizing I wasted precious moments..."we donot regret the past, nor do we shut the door on it".All of these go on my AA Step 1 (and then Step 4) list where I admitjust how unmanageable my life is..a good place for my sufferinginventory in ACT terms.Hope that makes sense and helps others.terryTo: "ACT_for_the_Public "<ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 8:40 AMSubject: Re: Keeping up with itIt sounds like you may be just where you need to be.Some assorted thoughts:Helps me and my recovery friends to do a daily routine such a simplemorning prayer to my higher power, asking for guidance.And a gratitude journal or just a daily list of things, even tinythings.Every little bit of joy, newness, success let in. Try to let go ofgrading yourself with a measuring stick which adds to self-deprecationand objectification "I'm below where I want to be".Avoidance behavior brings on many secondary gains (on some levels theyreally work) so it's very tricky stuff.And if you've been doing it for a while it will take time to let them goin favor of behavior that isvalue oriented.Put in place the reverse compass and do whatever small contrary valuedbehavior you can every day. Any little thing that is new, a stretch,valued.The self-compassion practices in Neff's book are helping me.I don't know how you are using defusing, but it's not designed to "makeyourself do things". And don't know what you mean by "I gotta be mindfuland all that".Sounds like some toxic 'shoulding' going on!I don't know how you are defining mindfulness.....hard to read..butalmost sounds like you're trying to beat yourself into a mindful state.If you do that, you'll just flip back and forth like a seal. It's notavoidance vs. mindfulness...itsstepping with your values more and moreof the time.Most of all give yourself the gift of time. Adopt that curious beginnersmind every day. Be willing to drop the rope more and more. Experimentwith lots of exercises from the books. Make up your own. If you aregoing to choose your avoidance behavior, at least do so with your eyesopen and watch what happens. Not with judgment though!And know you aren't alone...I'm fortunate in that I do have AA wherewith it's imperfections, it's an amazing free supportive compassionateplace where I get to go for an hour or two or three a week and just letit all out. Even if I don't say a word, I am struck almost always bysomething in there, some space. Most amazing things happen in thathour..I think it has something to do with the mutual sharing ofrealizing our limitations and sharing our pain, our triumphs together.So find support groups if you can.I'm having trouble with my computer keyboard so sorry if this sounds abit choppy!good luck and hold lightly,terryTo: ACT_for_the_Public@yah oogroups.comSent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 9:56 PMSubject: Keeping up with itHey everybody,I've been doing (or trying to do) the ACT thing for about 6 months now,and I just want to know if anybody else has the problem I'm having?That is, well, I'm finding it really hard to keep going with itconsistently. I'll be able to observe and defuse from my anxiety andmake myself do things I want to (i.e. study/diet) for about a couple ofdays, but then its like I forget everything I've learned and go backinto old habits of avoidance etc for a week. Then I remember "oh shit,that's right, I've gotta be mindful and all that" and get back on topfor another couple of days before I "forget" all over again.My progress has been really sporadic and its really frustrating. It'salso really frustrating that I only seem to be able to bemindful/whatever for a period of 2 - 3 days before I'm back toexperiential avoidance for a week or two.I told this to my therapist, but she just says "you gotta manageyourself with a diary/practice defusion/practice mindfulness/observeyourself" etc, but my problem is I do this for a bit then I 'forget' todo any of it for ages. I'm aware that this 'forgetting' is probably menot catching myself out in my old habits and then getting caught up inprocrastinating/whatever till I become aware of that again, but how do Istop myself doing that? I know its observation and defusion, but how doI get better at that? Cause I feel like I'm really weak at it.I know its probably a thing you get better at with practice. Initiallywhen I started, with increasing practice I kept getting better, but I'vebeen at this for 6 months and its been ages since I got any better. Ifeel like I've plateaued and its at a point that's well below where Iwanna be.How can I improve? How do you guys manage yourselves consistently? Howdo you keep up with/practice mindfulness etc?Does this question even make sense (I really had trouble with putting myproblem into words)?

[Guest guest]

And also...I tend to think about repetitive thoughts and behavior - e.g. worrying and addictive behavior - not as something to get rid of - but as something that points to a need. I guess the need is different for everybody, but most of the time for me it's the need to accept and process emotions. I tried to link my post to the different processes in the hexaflex.(Hexaflex: fusion - need for values and committed action or acceptance)If I worry - the worry is pointing to the need for me to process underlying anxiety. (acceptance)If I do addictions (like all the time - duh!), it's pointing to the underlying emotions that are present in my body in the present moment. (present moment awareness + acceptance)Really simple, not complicated. Thoughts have a function - they are not random or silly - they point to a need. Once the need is met (like emotional processing - acceptance or changing things in my life - committed action), the thoughts are no longer there in the present moment (defusion). Then different thoughts emerge, pointing to different needs. And on and on....Same with addiction. There's not anything random in addiction. Addiction points to a need (value). I will never get rid of addictions by suppressing addictive behavior alone (avoidance). That will only lead me to other addictions that are more accepted by the culture I'm in... The only way to get rid of addictions is to learn how to process emotions (radical acceptance) or change my life (committed action), whichever is on top at the moment (present moment awareness). I could elaborate more...Hope this makes sense...HenrikNice Terry!I was sitting at the beach a few days ago. Relaxing but also worrying(another addiction) - and I suddenly could sense an alternative. Likeanother way of living. Taking it slow. Not pushing myself past a naturalwant for activity.I believe this is my valued life.On the other hand, when I fill myself with worrying, or checking thingsout (on e-mail, facebook, twitter.. you name it) or pushing myself likecrazy, I'm filled from head to toe and beyond with a kind of dullfullness. It's very familiar, scary... The funny thing is: how can it beso addictive when it's also so uncomfortable and scary?Maybe another way to put it:I heard someone say that your fear of (pain) is nothing compared to yourfear of love.So I guess I'm terrified of this calm and relaxed life filled with lovefor myself and others.Can't we all encourage each other to go towards a calm, relaxed andloving life?Can't we also support each other when we get stuck in addiction, overactivation, frantic pursuit, isolation? I mean - not giving up onourselves or on others when we or them get stuck in it and believe it'sthe only way and that a loving, relaxed life is just a silly day dream.I heard a nice metaphor once: that we have a big plastic fabric over ourheads with electric lights that act as stars. We then believe they arethe the real stars. It's not so, beyond the electric lamps and plasticfabric, there's the real sky with shining stars. Let's not foolourselves or giving up. A life filled with addictions and franticbehavior is the same as staring at a plastic fabric with fake stars.Without support and community, we will never be able to see the realsky, I think. That's why I enjoy this listserve.Does it make sense?Warmly,Henrik> > > > > BTW, when I say the avoidance works on some levels I mean "work" very> loosely, in that they provide some key functions physically and> emotionally.> > > > For me, my drinking provided temporary relief, a warm feeling. That> unfortunately evaporated as writes as quickly as a> > drop of water on a hot summer sidewalk. And..as has said> (paraphrasing!)...costs... Huge..consequences like consistently> dragging> myself and others to the ground.> > > > > In the long run, the avoidance behaviors mostly don't work or we> wouldn't be suffering so.> > > > > Here are other sneaky secondary gains of avoidance behavior (not just> alcohol/drugs)..The behavior can include overeating, gambling,> hoarding,> shopping, excessive internet use, excessive/obsessive> rumination/regret/rehashing with past,excessive planning/rehearsing> for> future, excessive arguing/debating.> > > > > Some seductive, life-sucking goodies I've noted:> > > > Momentary feeling of being right, being in control.> > Less ambivalence in terms of what this moment, this day will bring> me..I'll force my will on it and decide, maybe even create> drama..anything rather than sit in that uncomfortable ambiguity.> > Believing as though I've truly accomplished something with all the> behavior--this has been especially tricky for me. Especially learning> to> deal with the sadness in realizing I wasted precious moments..."we do> not regret the past, nor do we shut the door on it".> > > > > All of these go on my AA Step 1 (and then Step 4) list where I admit> just how unmanageable my life is..a good place for my suffering> inventory in ACT terms.> > > > > Hope that makes sense and helps others.> > > > > terry> > > To: "ACT_for_the_Public "> <ACT_for_the_Public >> Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 8:40 AM> Subject: Re: Keeping up with it> > > > It sounds like you may be just where you need to be.> > > > Some assorted thoughts:> > > > Helps me and my recovery friends to do a daily routine such a simple> morning prayer to my higher power, asking for guidance.> > > > And a gratitude journal or just a daily list of things, even tiny> things.> > > > > Every little bit of joy, newness, success let in. Try to let go of> grading yourself with a measuring stick which adds to self-deprecation> and objectification "I'm below where I want to be".> > > > > Avoidance behavior brings on many secondary gains (on some levels they> really work) so it's very tricky stuff.> > > > And if you've been doing it for a while it will take time to let them> go> in favor of behavior that is> > value oriented.> > > > > Put in place the reverse compass and do whatever small contrary valued> behavior you can every day. Any little thing that is new, a stretch,> valued.> > > > > The self-compassion practices in Neff's book are helping me.> > > > > I don't know how you are using defusing, but it's not designed to> "make> yourself do things". And don't know what you mean by "I gotta be> mindful> and all that".> > > > > Sounds like some toxic 'shoulding' going on!> > > > > I don't know how you are defining mindfulness.....hard to read..but> almost sounds like you're trying to beat yourself into a mindful> state.> If you do that, you'll just flip back and forth like a seal. It's not> avoidance vs. mindfulness...itsstepping with your values more and more> of the time.> > > > > Most of all give yourself the gift of time. Adopt that curious> beginners> mind every day. Be willing to drop the rope more and more. Experiment> with lots of exercises from the books. Make up your own. If you are> going to choose your avoidance behavior, at least do so with your eyes> open and watch what happens. Not with judgment though!> > > > > And know you aren't alone...I'm fortunate in that I do have AA where> with it's imperfections, it's an amazing free supportive compassionate> place where I get to go for an hour or two or three a week and just> let> it all out. Even if I don't say a word, I am struck almost always by> something in there, some space. Most amazing things happen in that> hour..I think it has something to do with the mutual sharing of> realizing our limitations and sharing our pain, our triumphs together.> > > > > So find support groups if you can.> > > > > I'm having trouble with my computer keyboard so sorry if this sounds a> bit choppy!> > > > > good luck and hold lightly,> > > > > terry> > > To: ACT_for_the_Public@yah oogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 9:56 PM> Subject: Keeping up with it> > > > Hey everybody,> > I've been doing (or trying to do) the ACT thing for about 6 months> now,> and I just want to know if anybody else has the problem I'm having?> > That is, well, I'm finding it really hard to keep going with it> consistently. I'll be able to observe and defuse from my anxiety and> make myself do things I want to (i.e. study/diet) for about a couple> of> days, but then its like I forget everything I've learned and go back> into old habits of avoidance etc for a week. Then I remember "oh shit,> that's right, I've gotta be mindful and all that" and get back on top> for another couple of days before I "forget" all over again.> > My progress has been really sporadic and its really frustrating. It's> also really frustrating that I only seem to be able to be> mindful/whatever for a period of 2 - 3 days before I'm back to> experiential avoidance for a week or two.> > I told this to my therapist, but she just says "you gotta manage> yourself with a diary/practice defusion/practice mindfulness/observe> yourself" etc, but my problem is I do this for a bit then I 'forget'> to> do any of it for ages. I'm aware that this 'forgetting' is probably me> not catching myself out in my old habits and then getting caught up in> procrastinating/whatever till I become aware of that again, but how do> I> stop myself doing that? I know its observation and defusion, but how> do> I get better at that? Cause I feel like I'm really weak at it.> I know its probably a thing you get better at with practice. Initially> when I started, with increasing practice I kept getting better, but> I've> been at this for 6 months and its been ages since I got any better. I> feel like I've plateaued and its at a point that's well below where I> wanna be.> > How can I improve? How do you guys manage yourselves consistently? How> do you keep up with/practice mindfulness etc?> > Does this question even make sense (I really had trouble with putting> my> problem into words)?> > > > > > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Hi!

Human beings are not perfect, they make mistakes. It is impossible for anyone to

not make mistakes. I will suggest the following 3 things:

1. Read chapter 13 " Committing to doing it " of " Get out of your mind and into

your life " .

2. Read Chapter 32 " Onward and upward " of " The Happiness trap " .

3. Set an hourly or half-hourly alarm on your wrist watch or mobile phone as

reminder to yourself to practice ACT.

Please tell whether it helps.

My best wishes.

>

> Hey everybody,

>

> I've been doing (or trying to do) the ACT thing for about 6 months now, and I

just want to know if anybody else has the problem I'm having?

>

> That is, well, I'm finding it really hard to keep going with it consistently.

I'll be able to observe and defuse from my anxiety and make myself do things I

want to (i.e. study/diet) for about a couple of days, but then its like I forget

everything I've learned and go back into old habits of avoidance etc for a week.

Then I remember " oh shit, that's right, I've gotta be mindful and all that " and

get back on top for another couple of days before I " forget " all over again.

>

> My progress has been really sporadic and its really frustrating. It's also

really frustrating that I only seem to be able to be mindful/whatever for a

period of 2 - 3 days before I'm back to experiential avoidance for a week or

two.

>

> I told this to my therapist, but she just says " you gotta manage yourself with

a diary/practice defusion/practice mindfulness/observe yourself " etc, but my

problem is I do this for a bit then I 'forget' to do any of it for ages. I'm

aware that this 'forgetting' is probably me not catching myself out in my old

habits and then getting caught up in procrastinating/whatever till I become

aware of that again, but how do I stop myself doing that? I know its observation

and defusion, but how do I get better at that? Cause I feel like I'm really weak

at it.

> I know its probably a thing you get better at with practice. Initially when I

started, with increasing practice I kept getting better, but I've been at this

for 6 months and its been ages since I got any better. I feel like I've

plateaued and its at a point that's well below where I wanna be.

>

> How can I improve? How do you guys manage yourselves consistently? How do you

keep up with/practice mindfulness etc?

>

> Does this question even make sense (I really had trouble with putting my

problem into words)?

>

[Guest guest]

Beautiful yes..I think maybe I'll respond to this in pieces...so many goodies here.I'm

not sure I agree that there is nothing random about addiction. I suppose maybe it's how we're defining it. Maybe you could elaborate more?

Yes,I

do see a lot of reasons why I drank but I have given up figuring it all

out as in "trying to get to the bottom of it"...like I didn't have this

or that as a child...

It

is sometimes helpful to be aware of current triggers, but honestly for me..almost

anything can be a trigger! Life is a trigger for me! Maybe I can explain it better:

Sometimes

I am just in the store and I see the bottle of wine and the next

thing I know I'm buying it and taking it home and pouring myself a glass. "I'll just have one glass" I tell myself. You know, take the edge

off. Loosen up some. I'll be able to make that difficult phone call.

Next thing I know a few hours have passed and the bottle is empty. Now

I'm unable to do much. My head is fuzzy. That warm, loose feeling is wearing off and I'm antsy, agitated. I get hurt much more quickly. Maybe

even lash out and write or say things I later regret. I can't drive (although I did in the past...to go get more, or get some food..."it's just around the corner, it won't matter, I can manage it"). Now, if I back up and learn..I can see that I was feeling "off" that day. I was sad about something. Or angry. Or anxious. Lonely. Hungry. All triggers. But It could be more simpler..I'm just tired, didn't sleep well...so it could be almost anything that triggered the thought "I want that wine now. It will help me". So that's why i say life is a trigger..or maybe better put, this mindy mind is trigger! Fusion with that that thought that I must have it! And fusion with belief that I can manage just one glass and save rest for later. (Some times I could, which made things even more tricky in terms of believing I could always control the outcome)That's where ACT

is so helpful. If I can slow down enough to notice and accept the strong urge to numb out and if I defuse and then remember my values...and if I've practiced enough, it gets easier. Suddenly I have lots of choices. I am a freer woman. I can just walk out of the store, for example. I have legs, after all. No-one is forcing me to buy that wine obviously.But it takes an ability to pause and a desire to be present with the thought and then willingness to respond in a new valued way. Scary stuff if you're used to just numbing out. Some people in my meetings allow themselves to play the tape/story out fully of their past horrible episodes and this is enough to stop them.

But yes, I hear you about the unmet needs that are there.. I do love that ACT is humanistic that way..where the suffering is almost masking an unmet need or thwarted value. That's why we do not shut the door precipitously and we honor what our body, our hearts are telling us. Many gems hiding underneath if we are willing to listen, hold lightly.Sometimes it's simple as a needing a hug. A hot shower. A good cry. Sometimes an action needs to happen. I do notice that the people who seem most content are not in their heads nearly as much as I am. I'm too isolated and have too much time on my hands these days. Not good. Many healthy people it seems are engaged in meaningful work, or have families, community involvement, routines,

friends... I'm thinking one of the reasons why the meeting is helpful is for an hour I am not alone..and I become privy to some of the most exquisite suffering... and this does take me out of my head. I hear myself in other people's sharing and together, we are bearing witness to the pain, telling stories like the one I just wrote. Healing together, laughing, crying. Okay, some people get preachy and that IS annoying. But hey, you takes the bad with the good, ya know? And some meetings are much better for me..they do vary quite a bit. You just hear things in those rooms you've never heard. Incredible heroism, suffering. I have been more honest in there then all my years in therapy!It's very easy to leave out huge chunks of your story for

years.You just don't mention it..part of the denial. Like the fact that I used to drink just to have courage to make calls..and

I never realized I was actually drinking just to make a friggn phone call until someone else in my meeting said that's what she used to do..another important reason to be around other recovering people...we remember together just how insane our behavior was!Oh, that was more than I thought I would write and still have more thoughts about your lovely post here, Henrik. Thanks for this very interesting conversation..more later.warmly,terry To: "ACT_for_the_Public "

<ACT_for_the_Public >; ACT_for_the_Public ; "Henrik Nordin," Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 1:53 AM Subject: Re: Keeping up with it

And also...I tend to think about repetitive thoughts and behavior - e.g. worrying and addictive behavior - not as something to get rid of - but as something that points to a need. I guess the need is different for everybody, but most of the time for me it's the need to accept and process emotions. I tried to link my post to the different processes in the hexaflex.(Hexaflex: fusion - need for values and committed action or acceptance)If I worry - the worry is pointing to the need for me to process underlying anxiety. (acceptance)If I do addictions (like all the time - duh!), it's pointing to the underlying emotions that are present in my body in the present moment. (present moment awareness + acceptance)Really simple, not complicated. Thoughts have a function - they are not random or silly - they

point to a need. Once the need is met (like emotional processing - acceptance or changing things in my life - committed action), the thoughts are no longer there in the present moment (defusion). Then different thoughts emerge, pointing to different needs. And on and on....Same with addiction. There's not anything random in addiction. Addiction points to a need (value). I will never get rid of addictions by suppressing addictive behavior alone (avoidance). That will only lead me to other addictions that are more accepted by the culture I'm in... The only way to get rid of addictions is to learn how to process emotions (radical acceptance) or change my life (committed action), whichever is on top at the moment (present moment awareness). I could elaborate more...Hope this makes

sense...HenrikNice Terry!I was sitting at the beach a few days ago. Relaxing but also worrying(another addiction) - and I suddenly could sense an alternative. Likeanother way of living. Taking it slow. Not pushing myself past a naturalwant for activity.I believe this is my valued life.On the other hand, when I fill myself with worrying, or checking thingsout (on e-mail, facebook, twitter.. you name it) or pushing myself likecrazy, I'm filled from head to toe and beyond with a kind of dullfullness. It's very familiar, scary... The funny thing is: how can it beso addictive when it's also so

uncomfortable and scary?Maybe another way to put it:I heard someone say that your fear of (pain) is nothing compared to yourfear of love.So I guess I'm terrified of this calm and relaxed life filled with lovefor myself and others.Can't we all encourage each other to go towards a calm, relaxed andloving life?Can't we also support each other when we get stuck in addiction, overactivation, frantic pursuit, isolation? I mean - not giving up onourselves or on others when we or them get stuck in it and believe it'sthe only way and that a loving, relaxed life is just a silly day dream.I heard a nice metaphor once: that we have a big plastic fabric over ourheads with electric lights that act as stars. We then believe they arethe the real stars. It's not so, beyond the electric lamps and plasticfabric, there's the real sky with

shining stars. Let's not foolourselves or giving up. A life filled with addictions and franticbehavior is the same as staring at a plastic fabric with fake stars.Without support and community, we will never be able to see the realsky, I think. That's why I enjoy this listserve.Does it make sense?Warmly,Henrik> > > > > BTW, when I say the avoidance works on some levels I mean "work" very> loosely, in that they provide some key functions physically and> emotionally.> > > > For me, my drinking provided temporary relief, a warm feeling. That> unfortunately evaporated

as writes as quickly as a> > drop of water on a hot summer sidewalk. And..as has said> (paraphrasing!)...costs... Huge..consequences like consistently> dragging> myself and others to the ground.> > > > > In the long run, the avoidance behaviors mostly don't work or we> wouldn't be suffering so.> > > > > Here are other sneaky secondary gains of avoidance behavior (not just> alcohol/drugs)..The behavior can include overeating, gambling,> hoarding,> shopping, excessive internet use, excessive/obsessive> rumination/regret/rehashing with past,excessive planning/rehearsing> for> future, excessive arguing/debating.> > > > > Some seductive, life-sucking goodies I've noted:> > > > Momentary feeling of being right, being in

control.> > Less ambivalence in terms of what this moment, this day will bring> me..I'll force my will on it and decide, maybe even create> drama..anything rather than sit in that uncomfortable ambiguity.> > Believing as though I've truly accomplished something with all the> behavior--this has been especially tricky for me. Especially learning> to> deal with the sadness in realizing I wasted precious moments..."we do> not regret the past, nor do we shut the door on it".> > > > > All of these go on my AA Step 1 (and then Step 4) list where I admit> just how unmanageable my life is..a good place for my suffering> inventory in ACT terms.> > > > > Hope that makes sense and helps others.> > > > > terry> > > To: "ACT_for_the_Public "> <ACT_for_the_Public >> Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 8:40 AM> Subject: Re: Keeping up with it> > > > It sounds like you may be just where you need to be.> > > > Some assorted thoughts:> > > > Helps me and my recovery friends to do a daily routine such a simple> morning prayer to my higher power, asking for guidance.> > > > And a gratitude journal or just a daily list of things, even tiny> things.> > > > > Every

little bit of joy, newness, success let in. Try to let go of> grading yourself with a measuring stick which adds to self-deprecation> and objectification "I'm below where I want to be".> > > > > Avoidance behavior brings on many secondary gains (on some levels they> really work) so it's very tricky stuff.> > > > And if you've been doing it for a while it will take time to let them> go> in favor of behavior that is> > value oriented.> > > > > Put in place the reverse compass and do whatever small contrary valued> behavior you can every day. Any little thing that is new, a stretch,> valued.> > > > > The self-compassion practices in Neff's book are helping me.> > > > > I don't know how you are using defusing, but it's not

designed to> "make> yourself do things". And don't know what you mean by "I gotta be> mindful> and all that".> > > > > Sounds like some toxic 'shoulding' going on!> > > > > I don't know how you are defining mindfulness.....hard to read..but> almost sounds like you're trying to beat yourself into a mindful> state.> If you do that, you'll just flip back and forth like a seal. It's not> avoidance vs. mindfulness...itsstepping with your values more and more> of the time.> > > > > Most of all give yourself the gift of time. Adopt that curious> beginners> mind every day. Be willing to drop the rope more and more. Experiment> with lots of exercises from the books. Make up your own. If you are> going to choose your avoidance behavior, at least do so with your

eyes> open and watch what happens. Not with judgment though!> > > > > And know you aren't alone...I'm fortunate in that I do have AA where> with it's imperfections, it's an amazing free supportive compassionate> place where I get to go for an hour or two or three a week and just> let> it all out. Even if I don't say a word, I am struck almost always by> something in there, some space. Most amazing things happen in that> hour..I think it has something to do with the mutual sharing of> realizing our limitations and sharing our pain, our triumphs together.> > > > > So find support groups if you can.> > > > > I'm having trouble with my computer keyboard so sorry if this sounds a> bit choppy!> > > > > good luck and hold lightly,> > >

> > terry> > > To: ACT_for_the_Public@yah oogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 9:56 PM> Subject: Keeping up with it> > > > Hey everybody,> > I've been doing (or trying to do) the ACT thing for about 6 months> now,> and I just want to know if anybody else has the problem I'm having?> > That is, well, I'm finding it really hard to keep going with it> consistently. I'll be able to observe and defuse from my anxiety and> make myself do things I want to (i.e. study/diet) for about a couple> of> days, but then its like I forget everything I've learned and go back> into old habits of avoidance etc for a week.

Then I remember "oh shit,> that's right, I've gotta be mindful and all that" and get back on top> for another couple of days before I "forget" all over again.> > My progress has been really sporadic and its really frustrating. It's> also really frustrating that I only seem to be able to be> mindful/whatever for a period of 2 - 3 days before I'm back to> experiential avoidance for a week or two.> > I told this to my therapist, but she just says "you gotta manage> yourself with a diary/practice defusion/practice mindfulness/observe> yourself" etc, but my problem is I do this for a bit then I 'forget'> to> do any of it for ages. I'm aware that this 'forgetting' is probably me> not catching myself out in my old habits and then getting caught up in> procrastinating/whatever till I become aware of that again, but how do> I> stop myself doing

that? I know its observation and defusion, but how> do> I get better at that? Cause I feel like I'm really weak at it.> I know its probably a thing you get better at with practice. Initially> when I started, with increasing practice I kept getting better, but> I've> been at this for 6 months and its been ages since I got any better. I> feel like I've plateaued and its at a point that's well below where I> wanna be.> > How can I improve? How do you guys manage yourselves consistently? How> do you keep up with/practice mindfulness etc?> > Does this question even make sense (I really had trouble with putting> my> problem into words)?> > > > > > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Oh dear, just read this powerful, descriptive, hopeful beautiful post, Henrik. I was only responding earlier to your second post. The questions you pose and the metaphors..yes..it all makes sense to me! Thanks so much..more later! :-)terry To:

"ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public >; ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 12:50 AM Subject: Re: Keeping up with it

Nice Terry! I was sitting at the beach a few days ago. Relaxing but also worrying (another addiction) - and I suddenly could sense an alternative. Like another way of living. Taking it slow. Not pushing myself past a natural want for activity. I believe this is my valued life. On the other hand, when I fill myself with worrying, or checking things out (on e-mail, facebook, twitter.. you name it) or pushing myself like crazy, I'm filled from head to toe and beyond with a kind of dull fullness. It's very familiar, scary... The funny thing is: how can it be so addictive when it's also so uncomfortable and scary?Maybe another way to put it:I heard someone say that your fear of (pain) is nothing compared to your fear of love.So I guess I'm terrified of this calm and relaxed life filled with love for myself and

others. Can't we all encourage each other to go towards a calm, relaxed and loving life?Can't we also support each other when we get stuck in addiction, over activation, frantic pursuit, isolation? I mean - not giving up on ourselves or on others when we or them get stuck in it and believe it's the only way and that a loving, relaxed life is just a silly day dream.I heard a nice metaphor once: that we have a big plastic fabric over our heads with electric lights that act as stars. We then believe they are the the real stars. It's not so, beyond the electric lamps and plastic fabric, there's the real sky with shining stars. Let's not fool ourselves or giving up. A life filled with addictions and frantic behavior is the same as staring at a plastic fabric with fake stars. Without support and community, we will never be able to see the real sky, I think.

That's why I enjoy this listserve.Does it make sense?Warmly,Henrik BTW, when I say the avoidance works on some levels I mean "work" veryloosely, in that they provide some key functions physically andemotionally.For me, my drinking provided temporary relief, a warm feeling. Thatunfortunately evaporated as writes as quickly as adrop of water on a hot summer sidewalk. And..as has said(paraphrasing!)...costs... Huge..consequences like consistently draggingmyself and others to the ground.In the long run, the avoidance behaviors mostly

don't work or wewouldn't be suffering so.Here are other sneaky secondary gains of avoidance behavior (not justalcohol/drugs)..The behavior can include overeating, gambling, hoarding,shopping, excessive internet use, excessive/obsessiverumination/regret/rehashing with past,excessive planning/rehearsing forfuture, excessive arguing/debating.Some seductive, life-sucking goodies I've noted:Momentary feeling of being right, being in control.Less ambivalence in terms of what this moment, this day will bringme..I'll force my will on it and decide, maybe even createdrama..anything rather than sit in that uncomfortable ambiguity.Believing as though I've truly accomplished something with all thebehavior--this has been especially tricky for me. Especially learning todeal with the sadness in realizing I wasted precious moments..."we donot regret the past,

nor do we shut the door on it".All of these go on my AA Step 1 (and then Step 4) list where I admitjust how unmanageable my life is..a good place for my sufferinginventory in ACT terms.Hope that makes sense and helps others.terryTo: "ACT_for_the_Public "<ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 8:40 AMSubject: Re: Keeping up with itIt sounds like you may be just where you need to be.Some assorted thoughts:Helps me and my recovery friends to do a

daily routine such a simplemorning prayer to my higher power, asking for guidance.And a gratitude journal or just a daily list of things, even tinythings.Every little bit of joy, newness, success let in. Try to let go ofgrading yourself with a measuring stick which adds to self-deprecationand objectification "I'm below where I want to be".Avoidance behavior brings on many secondary gains (on some levels theyreally work) so it's very tricky stuff.And if you've been doing it for a while it will take time to let them goin favor of behavior that isvalue oriented.Put in place the reverse compass and do whatever small contrary valuedbehavior you can every day. Any little thing that is new, a stretch,valued.The self-compassion practices in Neff's book are helping me.I don't know how you are

using defusing, but it's not designed to "makeyourself do things". And don't know what you mean by "I gotta be mindfuland all that".Sounds like some toxic 'shoulding' going on!I don't know how you are defining mindfulness.....hard to read..butalmost sounds like you're trying to beat yourself into a mindful state.If you do that, you'll just flip back and forth like a seal. It's notavoidance vs. mindfulness...itsstepping with your values more and moreof the time.Most of all give yourself the gift of time. Adopt that curious beginnersmind every day. Be willing to drop the rope more and more. Experimentwith lots of exercises from the books. Make up your own. If you aregoing to choose your avoidance behavior, at least do so with your eyesopen and watch what happens. Not with judgment though!And know you aren't alone...I'm fortunate in that

I do have AA wherewith it's imperfections, it's an amazing free supportive compassionateplace where I get to go for an hour or two or three a week and just letit all out. Even if I don't say a word, I am struck almost always bysomething in there, some space. Most amazing things happen in thathour..I think it has something to do with the mutual sharing ofrealizing our limitations and sharing our pain, our triumphs together.So find support groups if you can.I'm having trouble with my computer keyboard so sorry if this sounds abit choppy!good luck and hold lightly,terryTo: ACT_for_the_Public@yah oogroups.comSent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 9:56 PMSubject:

Keeping up with itHey everybody,I've been doing (or trying to do) the ACT thing for about 6 months now,and I just want to know if anybody else has the problem I'm having?That is, well, I'm finding it really hard to keep going with itconsistently. I'll be able to observe and defuse from my anxiety andmake myself do things I want to (i.e. study/diet) for about a couple ofdays, but then its like I forget everything I've learned and go backinto old habits of avoidance etc for a week. Then I remember "oh shit,that's right, I've gotta be mindful and all that" and get back on topfor another couple of days before I "forget" all over again.My progress has been really sporadic and its really frustrating. It'salso really frustrating that I only seem to be able to bemindful/whatever for a period of 2 - 3 days before I'm back toexperiential avoidance for a week or

two.I told this to my therapist, but she just says "you gotta manageyourself with a diary/practice defusion/practice mindfulness/observeyourself" etc, but my problem is I do this for a bit then I 'forget' todo any of it for ages. I'm aware that this 'forgetting' is probably menot catching myself out in my old habits and then getting caught up inprocrastinating/whatever till I become aware of that again, but how do Istop myself doing that? I know its observation and defusion, but how doI get better at that? Cause I feel like I'm really weak at it.I know its probably a thing you get better at with practice. Initiallywhen I started, with increasing practice I kept getting better, but I'vebeen at this for 6 months and its been ages since I got any better. Ifeel like I've plateaued and its at a point that's well below where Iwanna be.How can I improve? How do you guys manage yourselves

consistently? Howdo you keep up with/practice mindfulness etc?Does this question even make sense (I really had trouble with putting myproblem into words)?

[Guest guest]

I've been working hard so longSeems like pain has been my only friendMy fragile heart's been done so wrongI wondered if I'd ever heal againOhh just like all the seasons never stay the sameAll around me I can feel a change (ohh)I will break these chains that bind me, happiness will find meLeave the past behind me, today my life beginsA whole new world is waiting it's mine for the takin'I know I can make it, today my life beginsYesterday has come and goneAnd I've learnt how to leave it where it isAnd I see that I was wrongFor ever doubting I could winOhh just like all the seasons never stay the sameAll around me I can feel a change (ohh)[ Lyrics from: http://www.lyricsmode.com/lyrics/b/bruno_mars/today_my_life_begins.html ]I will

break these chains that bind me, happiness will find meLeave the past behind me, today my life beginsA whole new world is waiting it's mine for the takinI know I can make it, today my life beginsLife's too short to have regretsSo I'm learning now to leave it in the past and try to forgetOnly have one life to liveSo you better make the best of itI will break these chains that bind me, happiness will find meLeave the past behind me, today my life beginsA whole new world is waiting it's mine for the takinI know I can make it, today my life beginsI will break these chains that bind me, happiness will find meLeave the past behind me, today my life beginsA whole new world is waiting it's mine for the takinI know I can make it, today my life beginsToday my life begins...

..

BECAUSE Vince Says.....Nothing will turn out right......

The nature of things.....

Lou

BTW, when I say the avoidance works on some levels I mean "work" veryloosely, in that they provide some key functions physically andemotionally.For me, my drinking provided temporary relief, a warm feeling. Thatunfortunately evaporated as writes as quickly as adrop of water on a hot summer sidewalk. And..as has said(paraphrasing!)...costs... Huge..consequences like consistently draggingmyself and others to the ground.In the long run, the avoidance behaviors mostly don't work or wewouldn't be suffering so.Here are other sneaky secondary gains of avoidance behavior (not justalcohol/drugs)..The behavior can include overeating, gambling, hoarding,shopping, excessive internet use, excessive/obsessiverumination/regret/rehashing with past,excessive planning/rehearsing forfuture, excessive

arguing/debating.Some seductive, life-sucking goodies I've noted:Momentary feeling of being right, being in control.Less ambivalence in terms of what this moment, this day will bringme..I'll force my will on it and decide, maybe even createdrama..anything rather than sit in that uncomfortable ambiguity.Believing as though I've truly accomplished something with all thebehavior--this has been especially tricky for me. Especially learning todeal with the sadness in realizing I wasted precious moments..."we donot regret the past, nor do we shut the door on it".All of these go on my AA Step 1 (and then Step 4) list where I admitjust how unmanageable my life is..a good place for my sufferinginventory in ACT terms.Hope that makes sense and helps others.terryTo: "ACT_for_the_Public "<ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 8:40 AMSubject: Re: Keeping up with itIt sounds like you may be just where you need to be.Some assorted thoughts:Helps me and my recovery friends to do a daily routine such a simplemorning prayer to my higher power, asking for guidance.And a gratitude journal or just a daily list of things, even tinythings.Every little bit of joy, newness, success let in. Try to let

go ofgrading yourself with a measuring stick which adds to self-deprecationand objectification "I'm below where I want to be".Avoidance behavior brings on many secondary gains (on some levels theyreally work) so it's very tricky stuff.And if you've been doing it for a while it will take time to let them goin favor of behavior that isvalue oriented.Put in place the reverse compass and do whatever small contrary valuedbehavior you can every day. Any little thing that is new, a stretch,valued.The self-compassion practices in Neff's book are helping me.I don't know how you are using defusing, but it's not designed to "makeyourself do things". And don't know what you mean by "I gotta be mindfuland all that".Sounds like some toxic 'shoulding' going on!I don't know how you are defining

mindfulness.....hard to read..butalmost sounds like you're trying to beat yourself into a mindful state.If you do that, you'll just flip back and forth like a seal. It's notavoidance vs. mindfulness...itsstepping with your values more and moreof the time.Most of all give yourself the gift of time. Adopt that curious beginnersmind every day. Be willing to drop the rope more and more. Experimentwith lots of exercises from the books. Make up your own. If you aregoing to choose your avoidance behavior, at least do so with your eyesopen and watch what happens. Not with judgment though!And know you aren't alone...I'm fortunate in that I do have AA wherewith it's imperfections, it's an amazing free supportive compassionateplace where I get to go for an hour or two or three a week and just letit all out. Even if I don't say a word, I am struck almost always bysomething in

there, some space. Most amazing things happen in thathour..I think it has something to do with the mutual sharing ofrealizing our limitations and sharing our pain, our triumphs together.So find support groups if you can.I'm having trouble with my computer keyboard so sorry if this sounds abit choppy!good luck and hold lightly,terryTo: ACT_for_the_Public@yah oogroups.comSent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 9:56 PMSubject: Keeping up with itHey everybody,I've been doing (or trying to do) the ACT thing for about 6 months now,and I just want to know if anybody else has the problem I'm

having?That is, well, I'm finding it really hard to keep going with itconsistently. I'll be able to observe and defuse from my anxiety andmake myself do things I want to (i.e. study/diet) for about a couple ofdays, but then its like I forget everything I've learned and go backinto old habits of avoidance etc for a week. Then I remember "oh shit,that's right, I've gotta be mindful and all that" and get back on topfor another couple of days before I "forget" all over again.My progress has been really sporadic and its really frustrating. It'salso really frustrating that I only seem to be able to bemindful/whatever for a period of 2 - 3 days before I'm back toexperiential avoidance for a week or two.I told this to my therapist, but she just says "you gotta manageyourself with a diary/practice defusion/practice mindfulness/observeyourself" etc, but my problem is I do this for a bit then I

'forget' todo any of it for ages. I'm aware that this 'forgetting' is probably menot catching myself out in my old habits and then getting caught up inprocrastinating/whatever till I become aware of that again, but how do Istop myself doing that? I know its observation and defusion, but how doI get better at that? Cause I feel like I'm really weak at it.I know its probably a thing you get better at with practice. Initiallywhen I started, with increasing practice I kept getting better, but I'vebeen at this for 6 months and its been ages since I got any better. Ifeel like I've plateaued and its at a point that's well below where Iwanna be.How can I improve? How do you guys manage yourselves consistently? Howdo you keep up with/practice mindfulness etc?Does this question even make sense (I really had trouble with putting myproblem into

words)?

[Guest guest]

Thanks for posting.  Inspriational--Phil From: ACT_for_the_Public [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of LSent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 7:23 PMTo: ACT_for_the_Public Subject: Re: Keeping up with it I've been working hard so longSeems like pain has been my only friendMy fragile heart's been done so wrongI wondered if I'd ever heal againOhh just like all the seasons never stay the sameAll around me I can feel a change (ohh)I will break these chains that bind me, happiness will find meLeave the past behind me, today my life beginsA whole new world is waiting it's mine for the takin'I know I can make it, today my life beginsYesterday has come and goneAnd I've learnt how to leave it where it isAnd I see that I was wrongFor ever doubting I could winOhh just like all the seasons never stay the sameAll around me I can feel a change (ohh)[ Lyrics from: http://www.lyricsmode.com/lyrics/b/bruno_mars/today_my_life_begins.html ]I will break these chains that bind me, happiness will find meLeave the past behind me, today my life beginsA whole new world is waiting it's mine for the takinI know I can make it, today my life beginsLife's too short to have regretsSo I'm learning now to leave it in the past and try to forgetOnly have one life to liveSo you better make the best of itI will break these chains that bind me, happiness will find meLeave the past behind me, today my life beginsA whole new world is waiting it's mine for the takinI know I can make it, today my life beginsI will break these chains that bind me, happiness will find meLeave the past behind me, today my life beginsA whole new world is waiting it's mine for the takinI know I can make it, today my life beginsToday my life begins....BECAUSE Vince Says.....Nothing will turn out right...... The nature of things..... LouBTW, when I say the avoidance works on some levels I mean " work " veryloosely, in that they provide some key functions physically andemotionally.For me, my drinking provided temporary relief, a warm feeling. Thatunfortunately evaporated as writes as quickly as adrop of water on a hot summer sidewalk. And..as has said(paraphrasing!)...costs... Huge..consequences like consistently draggingmyself and others to the ground.In the long run, the avoidance behaviors mostly don't work or wewouldn't be suffering so.Here are other sneaky secondary gains of avoidance behavior (not justalcohol/drugs)..The behavior can include overeating, gambling, hoarding,shopping, excessive internet use, excessive/obsessiverumination/regret/rehashing with past,excessive planning/rehearsing forfuture, excessive arguing/debating.Some seductive, life-sucking goodies I've noted:Momentary feeling of being right, being in control.Less ambivalence in terms of what this moment, this day will bringme..I'll force my will on it and decide, maybe even createdrama..anything rather than sit in that uncomfortable ambiguity.Believing as though I've truly accomplished something with all thebehavior--this has been especially tricky for me. Especially learning todeal with the sadness in realizing I wasted precious moments... " we donot regret the past, nor do we shut the door on it " .All of these go on my AA Step 1 (and then Step 4) list where I admitjust how unmanageable my life is..a good place for my sufferinginventory in ACT terms.Hope that makes sense and helps others.terryTo: " ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 8:40 AMSubject: Re: Keeping up with itIt sounds like you may be just where you need to be.Some assorted thoughts:Helps me and my recovery friends to do a daily routine such a simplemorning prayer to my higher power, asking for guidance.And a gratitude journal or just a daily list of things, even tinythings.Every little bit of joy, newness, success let in. Try to let go ofgrading yourself with a measuring stick which adds to self-deprecationand objectification " I'm below where I want to be " .Avoidance behavior brings on many secondary gains (on some levels theyreally work) so it's very tricky stuff.And if you've been doing it for a while it will take time to let them goin favor of behavior that isvalue oriented.Put in place the reverse compass and do whatever small contrary valuedbehavior you can every day. Any little thing that is new, a stretch,valued.The self-compassion practices in Neff's book are helping me.I don't know how you are using defusing, but it's not designed to " makeyourself do things " . And don't know what you mean by " I gotta be mindfuland all that " .Sounds like some toxic 'shoulding' going on!I don't know how you are defining mindfulness.....hard to read..butalmost sounds like you're trying to beat yourself into a mindful state.If you do that, you'll just flip back and forth like a seal. It's notavoidance vs. mindfulness...itsstepping with your values more and moreof the time.Most of all give yourself the gift of time. Adopt that curious beginnersmind every day. Be willing to drop the rope more and more. Experimentwith lots of exercises from the books. Make up your own. If you aregoing to choose your avoidance behavior, at least do so with your eyesopen and watch what happens. Not with judgment though!And know you aren't alone...I'm fortunate in that I do have AA wherewith it's imperfections, it's an amazing free supportive compassionateplace where I get to go for an hour or two or three a week and just letit all out. Even if I don't say a word, I am struck almost always bysomething in there, some space. Most amazing things happen in thathour..I think it has something to do with the mutual sharing ofrealizing our limitations and sharing our pain, our triumphs together.So find support groups if you can.I'm having trouble with my computer keyboard so sorry if this sounds abit choppy!good luck and hold lightly,terryTo: ACT_for_the_Public@yah oogroups.comSent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 9:56 PMSubject: Keeping up with itHey everybody,I've been doing (or trying to do) the ACT thing for about 6 months now,and I just want to know if anybody else has the problem I'm having?That is, well, I'm finding it really hard to keep going with itconsistently. I'll be able to observe and defuse from my anxiety andmake myself do things I want to (i.e. study/diet) for about a couple ofdays, but then its like I forget everything I've learned and go backinto old habits of avoidance etc for a week. Then I remember " oh shit,that's right, I've gotta be mindful and all that " and get back on topfor another couple of days before I " forget " all over again.My progress has been really sporadic and its really frustrating. It'salso really frustrating that I only seem to be able to bemindful/whatever for a period of 2 - 3 days before I'm back toexperiential avoidance for a week or two.I told this to my therapist, but she just says " you gotta manageyourself with a diary/practice defusion/practice mindfulness/observeyourself " etc, but my problem is I do this for a bit then I 'forget' todo any of it for ages. I'm aware that this 'forgetting' is probably menot catching myself out in my old habits and then getting caught up inprocrastinating/whatever till I become aware of that again, but how do Istop myself doing that? I know its observation and defusion, but how doI get better at that? Cause I feel like I'm really weak at it.I know its probably a thing you get better at with practice. Initiallywhen I started, with increasing practice I kept getting better, but I'vebeen at this for 6 months and its been ages since I got any better. Ifeel like I've plateaued and its at a point that's well below where Iwanna be.How can I improve? How do you guys manage yourselves consistently? Howdo you keep up with/practice mindfulness etc?Does this question even make sense (I really had trouble with putting myproblem into words)?

[Guest guest]

Long post... Thank you Terry, it's interesting to hear about how it works in AA. I've been in emotional support groups a lot, and there seems to be a lot of similarities. Even though alcohol is not my "thing", I can't see there's much difference between how you and I relate to things. You buy a bottle of wine and want to drive to the store for more - only you can't drive - damn! :)I'm alway active in my head, worry, plan - I can't bother to name all my addictions - and want to do more - and if I only can I do more. It's just endless, endless. That's why I have to be endless back in taking care of my emotions. I have to be as persistent as the pull to do the addiction. As those marathon dancers way back - the woman has to keep following the man in the dance. And in this case I'm the woman following the addiction with emotional processing.By following like this- I eventually get more wiggling space and can go from avoidance (addiction in the broadest possible sense) to valued living.I have lately begun to see my thoughts as big signs that point to emotions that need to be expressed physically. I see that negative thoughts have that very important function. There are no unnecessary spare parts in my mind. They all have their function. They have all come to be because of my learning history and now point at the stuff where I'm fused and avoiding. I didn't mean that you must try to figure out exactly what the trigger was that made you want to go into addiction. Figuring out would most of the time get you even more mindy which in itself is avoiding. What I mean is: when you have an impulse to do an addiction - it means there's probably a lot of emotional work that needs to be done (defusion, acceptance). Committed action usually comes after that. You can't force the stuff - meaning you can't see behind corners mostly. When you're in the middle of fusion and avoidance, you're occupied with that unfortunately. So then you can't see what your next valued step is - except the ones so important: defusion and acceptance. Defusion could be to call or text someone and spill your beans (I want to do my addiction right now - I need to talk to you), or be sad and cry, or be scared and shake, or do mindfulness or do whatever works for you...But - I don't want to be naive about this. For me, at least, the pull of addiction is there all the time (checking, worrying, reading, pushing myself). So I need to be very patient with myself and at the same time not lose the process of taking care of the underlying triggers that's commanding my behavior. And I refer to triggers in a very loose way: I mostly have no idea of what the triggers are. That's OK. I will perhaps know more about them when I've done more work. mostly it's just steering into a dense fog with a vague idea of where I'm going. I'm steering towards my values (being in the present, having a calm and loving life). Addiction is the opposite of that (agitation, zoning out...).Makes sense??Henrik Beautiful yes..I think maybe I'll respond to this in pieces...so manygoodies here.I'm not sure I agree that there is nothing random about addiction. Isuppose maybe it's how we're defining it. Maybe you could elaboratemore?Yes,I do see a lot of reasons why I drank but I have given up figuringit all out as in "trying to get to the bottom of it"...like I didn'thave this or that as a child...It is sometimes helpful to be aware of current triggers, but honestlyfor me..almost anything can be a trigger! Life is a trigger for me!Maybe I can explain it better:Sometimes I am just in the store and I see the bottle of wine and thenext thing I know I'm buying it and taking it home and pouring myself aglass. "I'll just have one glass" I tell myself. You know, take the edgeoff. Loosen up some.I'll be able to make that difficult phone call.Next thing I know a few hours have passed and the bottle is empty. NowI'm unable to do much. My head is fuzzy. That warm, loose feeling iswearing off and I'm antsy, agitated. I get hurt much more quickly. Maybeeven lash out and write or say things I later regret. I can't drive(although I did in the past...to go get more, or get some food..."it'sjust around the corner, it won't matter, I can manage it").Now, if I back up and learn..I can see that I was feeling "off" thatday. I was sad about something. Or angry. Or anxious. Lonely. Hungry.All triggers.But It could be more simpler..I'm just tired, didn't sleep well...so itcould be almost anything that triggered the thought "I want that winenow. It will help me".So that's why i say life is a trigger..or maybe better put, this mindymind is trigger! Fusion with that that thought that I must have it! Andfusion with belief that I can manage just one glass and save rest forlater. (Some times I could, which made things even more tricky in termsof believing I could always control the outcome)That's where ACT is so helpful. If I can slow down enough to notice andaccept the strong urge to numb out and if I defuse and then remember myvalues...and if I've practiced enough, it gets easier. Suddenly I havelots of choices. I am a freer woman.I can just walk out of the store, for example. I have legs, after all.No-one is forcing me to buy that wine obviously.But it takes an ability to pause and a desire to be present with thethought and then willingness to respond in a new valued way.Scary stuff if you're used to just numbing out.Some people in my meetings allow themselves to play the tape/story outfully of their past horrible episodes and this is enough to stop them.But yes, I hear you about the unmet needs that are there.. I do lovethat ACT is humanistic that way..where the suffering is almost maskingan unmet need or thwarted value. That's why we do not shut the doorprecipitously and we honor what our body, our hearts are telling us.Many gems hiding underneath if we are willing to listen, hold lightly.Sometimes it's simple as a needing a hug. A hot shower. A good cry.Sometimes an action needs to happen.I do notice that the people who seem most content are notin their headsnearly as much as I am. I'm too isolated and have too much time on myhands these days. Not good.Many healthy people it seems are engaged in meaningful work, or havefamilies, community involvement, routines, friends...I'm thinking one of the reasons why the meeting is helpful is for anhour I am not alone..and I become privy to some of the most exquisitesuffering... and this does take me out of my head. I hear myself inother people's sharing and together, we are bearing witness to the pain,telling stories like the one I just wrote. Healing together, laughing,crying.Okay, some people get preachy and that IS annoying. But hey, you takesthe bad with the good, ya know? And some meetings are much better forme..they do vary quite a bit.You just hear things in those rooms you've never heard. Incredibleheroism, suffering.I have been more honest in there then all my years in therapy!It's very easy to leave out huge chunks of your story for years.You just don't mention it..part of the denial.Like the fact that I used to drink just to have courage to makecalls..and I never realized I was actually drinking just to make afriggn phone call until someone else in my meeting said that's what sheused to do..another important reason to be around other recoveringpeople...we remember together just how insane our behavior was!Oh, that was more than I thought I would write and still have morethoughts about your lovely post here, Henrik.Thanks for this very interesting conversation..more later.warmly,terryTo: "ACT_for_the_Public "<ACT_for_the_Public >;ACT_for_the_Public ; "Henrik Nordin,"Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 1:53 AMSubject: Re: Keeping up with itAnd also...I tend to think about repetitive thoughts and behavior - e.g. worryingand addictive behavior - not as something to get rid of - but assomething that points to a need. I guess the need is different foreverybody, but most of the time for me it's the need to accept andprocess emotions.I tried to link my post to the different processes in the hexaflex.(Hexaflex: fusion - need for values and committed action or acceptance)If I worry - the worry is pointing to the need for me to processunderlying anxiety. (acceptance)If I do addictions (like all the time - duh!), it's pointing to theunderlying emotions that are present in my body in the present moment.(present moment awareness + acceptance)Really simple, not complicated. Thoughts have a function - they are notrandom or silly - they point to a need. Once the need is met (likeemotional processing - acceptance or changing things in my life -committed action), the thoughts are no longer there in the presentmoment (defusion). Then different thoughts emerge, pointing to differentneeds. And on and on....Same with addiction. There's not anything random in addiction. Addictionpoints to a need (value). I will never get rid of addictions bysuppressing addictive behavior alone (avoidance). That will only lead meto other addictions that are more accepted by the culture I'm in... Theonly way to get rid of addictions is to learn how to process emotions(radical acceptance) or change my life (committed action), whichever ison top at the moment (present moment awareness).I could elaborate more...Hope this makes sense...Henrik> Nice Terry!> I was sitting at the beach a few days ago. Relaxing but also worrying> (another addiction) - and I suddenly could sense an alternative. Like> another way of living. Taking it slow. Not pushing myself past a> natural> want for activity.> > > > > I believe this is my valued life.> > > > > On the other hand, when I fill myself with worrying, or checking> things> out (on e-mail, facebook, twitter.. you name it) or pushing myself> like> crazy, I'm filled from head to toe and beyond with a kind of dull> fullness. It's very familiar, scary... The funny thing is: how can it> be> so addictive when it's also so uncomfortable and scary?> > > > > Maybe another way to put it:> > I heard someone say that your fear of (pain) is nothing compared to> your> fear of love.> > > > > So I guess I'm terrified of this calm and relaxed life filled with> love> for myself and others.> > > > > Can't we all encourage each other to go towards a calm, relaxed and> loving life?> > Can't we also support each other when we get stuck in addiction, over> activation, frantic pursuit, isolation? I mean - not giving up on> ourselves or on others when we or them get stuck in it and believe> it's> the only way and that a loving, relaxed life is just a silly day> dream.> > > > > I heard a nice metaphor once: that we have a big plastic fabric over> our> heads with electric lights that act as stars. We then believe they are> the the real stars. It's not so, beyond the electric lamps and plastic> fabric, there's the real sky with shining stars. Let's not fool> ourselves or giving up. A life filled with addictions and frantic> behavior is the same as staring at a plastic fabric with fake stars.> > > > > Without support and community, we will never be able to see the real> sky, I think. That's why I enjoy this listserve.> > > > > Does it make sense?> > > > > Warmly,> > Henrik> > > > > > > > On 13 aug 2012 19:47 "Theresa Linder" > wrote:> > >> >> >> >> > BTW, when I say the avoidance works on some levels I mean "work"> > very> > loosely, in that they provide some key functions physically and> > emotionally.> >> >> >> > For me, my drinking provided temporary relief, a warm feeling. That> > unfortunately evaporated as writes as quickly as a> >> > drop of water on a hot summer sidewalk. And..as has said> > (paraphrasing!)...costs... Huge..consequences like consistently> > dragging> > myself and others to the ground.> >> >> >> >> > In the long run, the avoidance behaviors mostly don't work or we> > wouldn't be suffering so.> >> >> >> >> > Here are other sneaky secondary gains of avoidance behavior (not> > just> > alcohol/drugs)..The behavior can include overeating, gambling,> > hoarding,> > shopping, excessive internet use, excessive/obsessive> > rumination/regret/rehashing with past,excessive planning/rehearsing> > for> > future, excessive arguing/debating.> >> >> >> >> > Some seductive, life-sucking goodies I've noted:> >> >> >> > Momentary feeling of being right, being in control.> >> > Less ambivalence in terms of what this moment, this day will bring> > me..I'll force my will on it and decide, maybe even create> > drama..anything rather than sit in that uncomfortable ambiguity.> >> > Believing as though I've truly accomplished something with all the> > behavior--this has been especially tricky for me. Especially> > learning> > to> > deal with the sadness in realizing I wasted precious moments..."we> > do> > not regret the past, nor do we shut the door on it".> >> >> >> >> > All of these go on my AA Step 1 (and then Step 4) list where I admit> > just how unmanageable my life is..a good place for my suffering> > inventory in ACT terms.> >> >> >> >> > Hope that makes sense and helps others.> >> >> >> >> > terry> >> > > > To: "ACT_for_the_Public "> > <ACT_for_the_Public >> > Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 8:40 AM> > Subject: Re: Keeping up with it> >> >> >> > It sounds like you may be just where you need to be.> >> >> >> > Some assorted thoughts:> >> >> >> > Helps me and my recovery friends to do a daily routine such a simple> > morning prayer to my higher power, asking for guidance.> >> >> >> > And a gratitude journal or just a daily list of things, even tiny> > things.> >> >> >> >> > Every little bit of joy, newness, success let in. Try to let go of> > grading yourself with a measuring stick which adds to> > self-deprecation> > and objectification "I'm below where I want to be".> >> >> >> >> > Avoidance behavior brings on many secondary gains (on some levels> > they> > really work) so it's very tricky stuff.> >> >> >> > And if you've been doing it for a while it will take time to let> > them> > go> > in favor of behavior that is> >> > value oriented.> >> >> >> >> > Put in place the reverse compass and do whatever small contrary> > valued> > behavior you can every day. Any little thing that is new, a stretch,> > valued.> >> >> >> >> > The self-compassion practices in Neff's book are helping me.> >> >> >> >> > I don't know how you are using defusing, but it's not designed to> > "make> > yourself do things". And don't know what you mean by "I gotta be> > mindful> > and all that".> >> >> >> >> > Sounds like some toxic 'shoulding' going on!> >> >> >> >> > I don't know how you are defining mindfulness.....hard to read..but> > almost sounds like you're trying to beat yourself into a mindful> > state.> > If you do that, you'll just flip back and forth like a seal. It's> > not> > avoidance vs. mindfulness...itsstepping with your values more and> > more> > of the time.> >> >> >> >> > Most of all give yourself the gift of time. Adopt that curious> > beginners> > mind every day. Be willing to drop the rope more and more.> > Experiment> > with lots of exercises from the books. Make up your own. If you are> > going to choose your avoidance behavior, at least do so with your> > eyes> > open and watch what happens. Not with judgment though!> >> >> >> >> > And know you aren't alone...I'm fortunate in that I do have AA where> > with it's imperfections, it's an amazing free supportive> > compassionate> > place where I get to go for an hour or two or three a week and just> > let> > it all out. Even if I don't say a word, I am struck almost always by> > something in there, some space. Most amazing things happen in that> > hour..I think it has something to do with the mutual sharing of> > realizing our limitations and sharing our pain, our triumphs> > together.> >> >> >> >> > So find support groups if you can.> >> >> >> >> > I'm having trouble with my computer keyboard so sorry if this sounds> > a> > bit choppy!> >> >> >> >> > good luck and hold lightly,> >> >> >> >> > terry> >> > > > To: ACT_for_the_Public@yah oogroups.com> > Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 9:56 PM> > Subject: Keeping up with it> >> >> >> > Hey everybody,> >> > I've been doing (or trying to do) the ACT thing for about 6 months> > now,> > and I just want to know if anybody else has the problem I'm having?> >> > That is, well, I'm finding it really hard to keep going with it> > consistently. I'll be able to observe and defuse from my anxiety and> > make myself do things I want to (i.e. study/diet) for about a couple> > of> > days, but then its like I forget everything I've learned and go back> > into old habits of avoidance etc for a week. Then I remember "oh> > shit,> > that's right, I've gotta be mindful and all that" and get back on> > top> > for another couple of days before I "forget" all over again.> >> > My progress has been really sporadic and its really frustrating.> > It's> > also really frustrating that I only seem to be able to be> > mindful/whatever for a period of 2 - 3 days before I'm back to> > experiential avoidance for a week or two.> >> > I told this to my therapist, but she just says "you gotta manage> > yourself with a diary/practice defusion/practice mindfulness/observe> > yourself" etc, but my problem is I do this for a bit then I 'forget'> > to> > do any of it for ages. I'm aware that this 'forgetting' is probably> > me> > not catching myself out in my old habits and then getting caught up> > in> > procrastinating/whatever till I become aware of that again, but how> > do> > I> > stop myself doing that? I know its observation and defusion, but how> > do> > I get better at that? Cause I feel like I'm really weak at it.> > I know its probably a thing you get better at with practice.> > Initially> > when I started, with increasing practice I kept getting better, but> > I've> > been at this for 6 months and its been ages since I got any better.> > I> > feel like I've plateaued and its at a point that's well below where> > I> > wanna be.> >> > How can I improve? How do you guys manage yourselves consistently?> > How> > do you keep up with/practice mindfulness etc?> >> > Does this question even make sense (I really had trouble with> > putting> > my> > problem into words)?> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >

[Guest guest]

Thank you.So these are my values: a calm and loving life. Now I have to sort out the goals that will lead me that way. And what are some of the ways that lead in the opposite direction.Very tricky.Just to get started a bit. Here I sort things out: things that lead towards and away from my values. Polk taught me this: Goals/action that lead me towards a calm and loving life:-Finishing things when I think I've done enough. (not going for perfection or approval).-Always letting emotional processing come first - even in the middle of doing other things. People don't notice it if I shake microscopically while afraid or if sadness wells up and I get teary eyed. -reading books and other things fast and more searching for things that interest me while reading - not getting stuck and wanting to get everything. Accepting that I won't get everything.Actions that lead me away from a calm and loving life - to an agitated life:-Trying to impress people-Showing people that I'm "as good as they are". -Trying to be better than other people.-Trying not to fail. -Doing things now so that there will be no risk of future failure, no risk of economic hardship... (Ha! like it would be possible to completely eliminate that risk!)This is just the beginning. I have a lot of work to do with myself. Warmly, Henrik Yes, so powerful! Yes, the metaphors! Yes, makes so much sense to menow! OMG, the questions you pose! OhOh dear, just read this powerful,descriptive, hopeful beautiful post, Henrik. I was only respondingearlier to your second post.Thanks so much..more later! :-) dearTo: "ACT_for_the_Public "<ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 4:50 PMSubject: Re: Keeping up with itOh dear, just read this powerful, descriptive, hopeful beautiful post,Henrik. I was only responding earlier to your second post.The questions you pose and the metaphors..yes..it all makes sense to me!Thanks so much..more later! :-)terryTo: "ACT_for_the_Public "<ACT_for_the_Public >; ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 12:50 AMSubject: Re: Keeping up with itNice Terry!I was sitting at the beach a few days ago. Relaxing but also worrying(another addiction) - and I suddenly could sense an alternative. Likeanother way of living. Taking it slow. Not pushing myself past a naturalwant for activity.I believe this is my valued life.On the other hand, when I fill myself with worrying, or checking thingsout (on e-mail, facebook, twitter.. you name it) or pushing myself likecrazy, I'm filled from head to toe and beyond with a kind of dullfullness. It's very familiar, scary... The funny thing is: how can it beso addictive when it's also so uncomfortable and scary?Maybe another way to put it:I heard someone say that your fear of (pain) is nothing compared to yourfear of love.So I guess I'm terrified of this calm and relaxed life filled with lovefor myself and others.Can't we all encourage each other to go towards a calm, relaxed andloving life?Can't we also support each other when we get stuck in addiction, overactivation, frantic pursuit, isolation? I mean - not giving up onourselves or on others when we or them get stuck in it and believe it'sthe only way and that a loving, relaxed life is just a silly day dream.I heard a nice metaphor once: that we have a big plastic fabric over ourheads with electric lights that act as stars. We then believe they arethe the real stars. It's not so, beyond the electric lamps and plasticfabric, there's the real sky with shining stars. Let's not foolourselves or giving up. A life filled with addictions and franticbehavior is the same as staring at a plastic fabric with fake stars.Without support and community, we will never be able to see the realsky, I think. That's why I enjoy this listserve.Does it make sense?Warmly,Henrik> > > > > BTW, when I say the avoidance works on some levels I mean "work" very> loosely, in that they provide some key functions physically and> emotionally.> > > > For me, my drinking provided temporary relief, a warm feeling. That> unfortunately evaporated as writes as quickly as a> > drop of water on a hot summer sidewalk. And..as has said> (paraphrasing!)...costs... Huge..consequences like consistently> dragging> myself and others to the ground.> > > > > In the long run, the avoidance behaviors mostly don't work or we> wouldn't be suffering so.> > > > > Here are other sneaky secondary gains of avoidance behavior (not just> alcohol/drugs)..The behavior can include overeating, gambling,> hoarding,> shopping, excessive internet use, excessive/obsessive> rumination/regret/rehashing with past,excessive planning/rehearsing> for> future, excessive arguing/debating.> > > > > Some seductive, life-sucking goodies I've noted:> > > > Momentary feeling of being right, being in control.> > Less ambivalence in terms of what this moment, this day will bring> me..I'll force my will on it and decide, maybe even create> drama..anything rather than sit in that uncomfortable ambiguity.> > Believing as though I've truly accomplished something with all the> behavior--this has been especially tricky for me. Especially learning> to> deal with the sadness in realizing I wasted precious moments..."we do> not regret the past, nor do we shut the door on it".> > > > > All of these go on my AA Step 1 (and then Step 4) list where I admit> just how unmanageable my life is..a good place for my suffering> inventory in ACT terms.> > > > > Hope that makes sense and helps others.> > > > > terry> > > To: "ACT_for_the_Public "> <ACT_for_the_Public >> Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 8:40 AM> Subject: Re: Keeping up with it> > > > It sounds like you may be just where you need to be.> > > > Some assorted thoughts:> > > > Helps me and my recovery friends to do a daily routine such a simple> morning prayer to my higher power, asking for guidance.> > > > And a gratitude journal or just a daily list of things, even tiny> things.> > > > > Every little bit of joy, newness, success let in. Try to let go of> grading yourself with a measuring stick which adds to self-deprecation> and objectification "I'm below where I want to be".> > > > > Avoidance behavior brings on many secondary gains (on some levels they> really work) so it's very tricky stuff.> > > > And if you've been doing it for a while it will take time to let them> go> in favor of behavior that is> > value oriented.> > > > > Put in place the reverse compass and do whatever small contrary valued> behavior you can every day. Any little thing that is new, a stretch,> valued.> > > > > The self-compassion practices in Neff's book are helping me.> > > > > I don't know how you are using defusing, but it's not designed to> "make> yourself do things". And don't know what you mean by "I gotta be> mindful> and all that".> > > > > Sounds like some toxic 'shoulding' going on!> > > > > I don't know how you are defining mindfulness.....hard to read..but> almost sounds like you're trying to beat yourself into a mindful> state.> If you do that, you'll just flip back and forth like a seal. It's not> avoidance vs. mindfulness...itsstepping with your values more and more> of the time.> > > > > Most of all give yourself the gift of time. Adopt that curious> beginners> mind every day. Be willing to drop the rope more and more. Experiment> with lots of exercises from the books. Make up your own. If you are> going to choose your avoidance behavior, at least do so with your eyes> open and watch what happens. Not with judgment though!> > > > > And know you aren't alone...I'm fortunate in that I do have AA where> with it's imperfections, it's an amazing free supportive compassionate> place where I get to go for an hour or two or three a week and just> let> it all out. Even if I don't say a word, I am struck almost always by> something in there, some space. Most amazing things happen in that> hour..I think it has something to do with the mutual sharing of> realizing our limitations and sharing our pain, our triumphs together.> > > > > So find support groups if you can.> > > > > I'm having trouble with my computer keyboard so sorry if this sounds a> bit choppy!> > > > > good luck and hold lightly,> > > > > terry> > > To: ACT_for_the_Public@yah oogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 9:56 PM> Subject: Keeping up with it> > > > Hey everybody,> > I've been doing (or trying to do) the ACT thing for about 6 months> now,> and I just want to know if anybody else has the problem I'm having?> > That is, well, I'm finding it really hard to keep going with it> consistently. I'll be able to observe and defuse from my anxiety and> make myself do things I want to (i.e. study/diet) for about a couple> of> days, but then its like I forget everything I've learned and go back> into old habits of avoidance etc for a week. Then I remember "oh shit,> that's right, I've gotta be mindful and all that" and get back on top> for another couple of days before I "forget" all over again.> > My progress has been really sporadic and its really frustrating. It's> also really frustrating that I only seem to be able to be> mindful/whatever for a period of 2 - 3 days before I'm back to> experiential avoidance for a week or two.> > I told this to my therapist, but she just says "you gotta manage> yourself with a diary/practice defusion/practice mindfulness/observe> yourself" etc, but my problem is I do this for a bit then I 'forget'> to> do any of it for ages. I'm aware that this 'forgetting' is probably me> not catching myself out in my old habits and then getting caught up in> procrastinating/whatever till I become aware of that again, but how do> I> stop myself doing that? I know its observation and defusion, but how> do> I get better at that? Cause I feel like I'm really weak at it.> I know its probably a thing you get better at with practice. Initially> when I started, with increasing practice I kept getting better, but> I've> been at this for 6 months and its been ages since I got any better. I> feel like I've plateaued and its at a point that's well below where I> wanna be.> > How can I improve? How do you guys manage yourselves consistently? How> do you keep up with/practice mindfulness etc?> > Does this question even make sense (I really had trouble with putting> my> problem into words)?> > > > > > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

I know how you feel about the sporadicness of the advancement...I have been trying to do ACT for several months now and I will do well for a while and then it seems like life gets a little hectic and I just start running on auto pilot and the things I have learned start to slip my mind.... How do I make ACT my new auto pilot instead of slipping back into old habits.

[Guest guest]

Hi Henrik,Most of this makes sense, but I lose you some with the thoughts as big signs that point to emotions that need to be expressed physically. (Can you maybe give an example, maybe something not too personal? If not, that's fine). It's just that for me, there's a lot of wasted old worn out useless thoughts occupying valuable land up there in that organ between my ears. Many of them have worn out there welcome in terms of function. Old and stinky and automatic. Prison sentences, you know? Where did they come from? Some thoughts landed there randomly and arbitrarily, some learned. Important

patterns to notice so that I can accept and defuse and turn toward values, but not really anywhere as interesting as what you seem to

describe I'm afraid. Very booring, old stuff. But maybe it's just a language thing and I'm misunderstanding what you're meaning. Also, the part about doing committed action later..for me it's been important doing whatever new kind of valued behavior I can muster up now. The reverse compass, pattern smashing stuff now. Because the addiction had become so destructive and time consuming and really so mindlessly automatic, like Pavlov's dog salivating. So I'd say one of the most valuable things recovering has been to take on a couple of commitments now. Like volunteer. Fill up time in healthy, valuable chunks. Go to a meeting with the intent of being helpful, creating a safe compassionate space. A chance to enjoy your drive and be present and maybe..who knows what else? Get my arms and legs moving doing anything new and valued, baby steps like keeping to a morning routine can be huge. And then gently notice what it's like if you do or don't keep the commitment. So emotional work, for sure. I guess it all compliments one another in the end, you know? But I needed straight away to act in new, flexible ways to help break the automaticity, the destructive hypnotic cycle. Picking up the phone as you mention here to tell a friend I have an urge

to drink now would be excellent example of contrary behavior, and a valued thing to do. I'm guessing many don't even do that...especially if they have every intention to drink and they know that calling would break that cycle. But if you're willing to do that, that's fantastic-- if for no other reason than to do something new! Just calling people to say hi even. Reach out and see how it goes for a change (vs. stay in your head, self-isolate). Surprising myself is something I'm learning, shaking things up. I never thought of the phone call as defusion, but I see what you mean...very cool example! A bit like free-style personal writing can be for me.But yes, I do agree with you in general about just how important the acceptance and mindfulness work is too. starts his new workbook "Wisdom to Know the Difference" so beautifully with a discussion of the inclined heart and six breaths on purpose. A very important place to

begin. The posture of self-kindness, self-validation and just learning a bit more about stillness with the discomfort seems so very critical...and it's a piece I do see missing with a lot of folks. In AA they put the meditation and prayer step later in the book and it really should be one of the first things! At least the idea about breathing, for goodness sake. Lot's of people (myself included) actually forget to take a breath. Some people will even say: "I'm not on that step, so I'm not doing that yet". :-)Warm regards,terry To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2012 2:33 AM Subject: Re: Keeping up with it

Long post... Thank you Terry, it's interesting to hear about how it works in AA. I've been in emotional support groups a lot, and there seems to be a lot of similarities. Even though alcohol is not my "thing", I can't see there's much difference between how you and I relate to things. You buy a bottle of wine and want to drive to the store for more - only you can't drive - damn! :)I'm alway active in my head, worry, plan - I can't bother to name all my addictions - and want to do more - and if I only can I do more. It's just endless, endless. That's why I have to be endless back in taking care of my emotions. I have to be as persistent as the pull to do the addiction. As those marathon dancers way back - the woman has to keep following the man in the dance. And in this case I'm the woman following the addiction with emotional processing.By following like

this- I eventually get more wiggling space and can go from avoidance (addiction in the broadest possible sense) to valued living.I have lately begun to see my thoughts as big signs that point to emotions that need to be expressed physically. I see that negative thoughts have that very important function. There are no unnecessary spare parts in my mind. They all have their function. They have all come to be because of my learning history and now point at the stuff where I'm fused and avoiding. I didn't mean that you must try to figure out exactly what the trigger was that made you want to go into addiction. Figuring out would most of the time get you even more mindy which in itself is avoiding. What I mean is: when you have

an impulse to do an addiction - it means there's probably a lot of emotional work that needs to be done (defusion, acceptance). Committed action usually comes after that. You can't force the stuff - meaning you can't see behind corners mostly. When you're in the middle of fusion and avoidance, you're occupied with that unfortunately. So then you can't see what your next valued step is - except the ones so important: defusion and acceptance. Defusion could be to call or text someone and spill your beans (I want to do my addiction right now - I need to talk to you), or be sad and cry, or be scared and shake, or do mindfulness or do whatever works for you...But - I don't want to be naive about this. For me, at least, the pull of addiction is there all the time (checking, worrying, reading, pushing myself). So I need to be very patient with myself and at the same time not lose the process of taking care of the underlying triggers

that's commanding my behavior. And I refer to triggers in a very loose way: I mostly have no idea of what the triggers are. That's OK. I will perhaps know more about them when I've done more work. mostly it's just steering into a dense fog with a vague idea of where I'm going. I'm steering towards my values (being in the present, having a calm and loving life). Addiction is the opposite of that (agitation, zoning out...).Makes sense??Henrik Beautiful yes..I think maybe I'll respond to this in pieces...so manygoodies here.I'm not sure I agree that there is nothing random about addiction. Isuppose maybe it's how we're

defining it. Maybe you could elaboratemore?Yes,I do see a lot of reasons why I drank but I have given up figuringit all out as in "trying to get to the bottom of it"...like I didn'thave this or that as a child...It is sometimes helpful to be aware of current triggers, but honestlyfor me..almost anything can be a trigger! Life is a trigger for me!Maybe I can explain it better:Sometimes I am just in the store and I see the bottle of wine and thenext thing I know I'm buying it and taking it home and pouring myself aglass. "I'll just have one glass" I tell myself. You know, take the edgeoff. Loosen up some.I'll be able to make that difficult phone call.Next thing I know a few hours have passed and the bottle is empty. NowI'm unable to do much. My head is fuzzy. That warm, loose feeling iswearing off and I'm antsy, agitated. I get hurt much more

quickly. Maybeeven lash out and write or say things I later regret. I can't drive(although I did in the past...to go get more, or get some food..."it'sjust around the corner, it won't matter, I can manage it").Now, if I back up and learn..I can see that I was feeling "off" thatday. I was sad about something. Or angry. Or anxious. Lonely. Hungry.All triggers.But It could be more simpler..I'm just tired, didn't sleep well...so itcould be almost anything that triggered the thought "I want that winenow. It will help me".So that's why i say life is a trigger..or maybe better put, this mindymind is trigger! Fusion with that that thought that I must have it! Andfusion with belief that I can manage just one glass and save rest forlater. (Some times I could, which made things even more tricky in termsof believing I could always control the outcome)That's

where ACT is so helpful. If I can slow down enough to notice andaccept the strong urge to numb out and if I defuse and then remember myvalues...and if I've practiced enough, it gets easier. Suddenly I havelots of choices. I am a freer woman.I can just walk out of the store, for example. I have legs, after all.No-one is forcing me to buy that wine obviously.But it takes an ability to pause and a desire to be present with thethought and then willingness to respond in a new valued way.Scary stuff if you're used to just numbing out.Some people in my meetings allow themselves to play the tape/story outfully of their past horrible episodes and this is enough to stop them.But yes, I hear you about the unmet needs that are there.. I do lovethat ACT is humanistic that way..where the suffering is almost maskingan unmet need or thwarted

value. That's why we do not shut the doorprecipitously and we honor what our body, our hearts are telling us.Many gems hiding underneath if we are willing to listen, hold lightly.Sometimes it's simple as a needing a hug. A hot shower. A good cry.Sometimes an action needs to happen.I do notice that the people who seem most content are notin their headsnearly as much as I am. I'm too isolated and have too much time on myhands these days. Not good.Many healthy people it seems are engaged in meaningful work, or havefamilies, community involvement, routines, friends...I'm thinking one of the reasons why the meeting is helpful is for anhour I am not alone..and I become privy to some of the most exquisitesuffering... and this does take me out of my head. I hear myself inother people's sharing and together, we are bearing witness to the pain,telling stories like

the one I just wrote. Healing together, laughing,crying.Okay, some people get preachy and that IS annoying. But hey, you takesthe bad with the good, ya know? And some meetings are much better forme..they do vary quite a bit.You just hear things in those rooms you've never heard. Incredibleheroism, suffering.I have been more honest in there then all my years in therapy!It's very easy to leave out huge chunks of your story for years.You just don't mention it..part of the denial.Like the fact that I used to drink just to have courage to makecalls..and I never realized I was actually drinking just to make afriggn phone call until someone else in my meeting said that's what sheused to do..another important reason to be around other recoveringpeople...we remember together just how insane our behavior was!Oh, that was more than I thought I would write

and still have morethoughts about your lovely post here, Henrik.Thanks for this very interesting conversation..more later.warmly,terryTo: "ACT_for_the_Public "<ACT_for_the_Public >;ACT_for_the_Public ; "Henrik Nordin,"Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 1:53 AMSubject: Re: Keeping up with itAnd also...I tend to think about repetitive thoughts and behavior - e.g. worryingand addictive behavior - not as something to get rid of - but

assomething that points to a need. I guess the need is different foreverybody, but most of the time for me it's the need to accept andprocess emotions.I tried to link my post to the different processes in the hexaflex.(Hexaflex: fusion - need for values and committed action or acceptance)If I worry - the worry is pointing to the need for me to processunderlying anxiety. (acceptance)If I do addictions (like all the time - duh!), it's pointing to theunderlying emotions that are present in my body in the present moment.(present moment awareness + acceptance)Really simple, not complicated. Thoughts have a function - they are notrandom or silly - they point to a need. Once the need is met (likeemotional processing - acceptance or changing things in my life -committed action), the thoughts are no longer there in the presentmoment

(defusion). Then different thoughts emerge, pointing to differentneeds. And on and on....Same with addiction. There's not anything random in addiction. Addictionpoints to a need (value). I will never get rid of addictions bysuppressing addictive behavior alone (avoidance). That will only lead meto other addictions that are more accepted by the culture I'm in... Theonly way to get rid of addictions is to learn how to process emotions(radical acceptance) or change my life (committed action), whichever ison top at the moment (present moment awareness).I could elaborate more...Hope this makes sense...Henrik> Nice

Terry!> I was sitting at the beach a few days ago. Relaxing but also worrying> (another addiction) - and I suddenly could sense an alternative. Like> another way of living. Taking it slow. Not pushing myself past a> natural> want for activity.> > > > > I believe this is my valued life.> > > > > On the other hand, when I fill myself with worrying, or checking> things> out (on e-mail, facebook, twitter.. you name it) or pushing myself> like> crazy, I'm filled from head to toe and beyond with a kind of dull> fullness. It's very familiar, scary... The funny thing is: how can it> be> so addictive when it's also so uncomfortable and scary?> > > > > Maybe another way to put it:> > I heard someone say that your fear of (pain) is nothing compared to>

your> fear of love.> > > > > So I guess I'm terrified of this calm and relaxed life filled with> love> for myself and others.> > > > > Can't we all encourage each other to go towards a calm, relaxed and> loving life?> > Can't we also support each other when we get stuck in addiction, over> activation, frantic pursuit, isolation? I mean - not giving up on> ourselves or on others when we or them get stuck in it and believe> it's> the only way and that a loving, relaxed life is just a silly day> dream.> > > > > I heard a nice metaphor once: that we have a big plastic fabric over> our> heads with electric lights that act as stars. We then believe they are> the the real stars. It's not so, beyond the electric lamps and plastic> fabric, there's the real

sky with shining stars. Let's not fool> ourselves or giving up. A life filled with addictions and frantic> behavior is the same as staring at a plastic fabric with fake stars.> > > > > Without support and community, we will never be able to see the real> sky, I think. That's why I enjoy this listserve.> > > > > Does it make sense?> > > > > Warmly,> > Henrik> > > > > > > > On 13 aug 2012 19:47 "Theresa Linder" > wrote:> > >> >> >> >> > BTW, when I say the avoidance works on some levels I mean "work"> > very> > loosely, in that they

provide some key functions physically and> > emotionally.> >> >> >> > For me, my drinking provided temporary relief, a warm feeling. That> > unfortunately evaporated as writes as quickly as a> >> > drop of water on a hot summer sidewalk. And..as has said> > (paraphrasing!)...costs... Huge..consequences like consistently> > dragging> > myself and others to the ground.> >> >> >> >> > In the long run, the avoidance behaviors mostly don't work or we> > wouldn't be suffering so.> >> >> >> >> > Here are other sneaky secondary gains of avoidance behavior (not> > just> > alcohol/drugs)..The behavior can include overeating, gambling,> > hoarding,> > shopping, excessive internet use,

excessive/obsessive> > rumination/regret/rehashing with past,excessive planning/rehearsing> > for> > future, excessive arguing/debating.> >> >> >> >> > Some seductive, life-sucking goodies I've noted:> >> >> >> > Momentary feeling of being right, being in control.> >> > Less ambivalence in terms of what this moment, this day will bring> > me..I'll force my will on it and decide, maybe even create> > drama..anything rather than sit in that uncomfortable ambiguity.> >> > Believing as though I've truly accomplished something with all the> > behavior--this has been especially tricky for me. Especially> > learning> > to> > deal with the sadness in realizing I wasted precious moments..."we> > do> > not regret the past, nor

do we shut the door on it".> >> >> >> >> > All of these go on my AA Step 1 (and then Step 4) list where I admit> > just how unmanageable my life is..a good place for my suffering> > inventory in ACT terms.> >> >> >> >> > Hope that makes sense and helps others.> >> >> >> >> > terry> >> > > > To: "ACT_for_the_Public "> > <ACT_for_the_Public >> > Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 8:40 AM> >

Subject: Re: Keeping up with it> >> >> >> > It sounds like you may be just where you need to be.> >> >> >> > Some assorted thoughts:> >> >> >> > Helps me and my recovery friends to do a daily routine such a simple> > morning prayer to my higher power, asking for guidance.> >> >> >> > And a gratitude journal or just a daily list of things, even tiny> > things.> >> >> >> >> > Every little bit of joy, newness, success let in. Try to let go of> > grading yourself with a measuring stick which adds to> > self-deprecation> > and objectification "I'm below where I want to be".> >> >> >> >> > Avoidance behavior brings on many secondary

gains (on some levels> > they> > really work) so it's very tricky stuff.> >> >> >> > And if you've been doing it for a while it will take time to let> > them> > go> > in favor of behavior that is> >> > value oriented.> >> >> >> >> > Put in place the reverse compass and do whatever small contrary> > valued> > behavior you can every day. Any little thing that is new, a stretch,> > valued.> >> >> >> >> > The self-compassion practices in Neff's book are helping me.> >> >> >> >> > I don't know how you are using defusing, but it's not designed to> > "make> > yourself do things". And don't know what you mean by "I gotta be> > mindful> >

and all that".> >> >> >> >> > Sounds like some toxic 'shoulding' going on!> >> >> >> >> > I don't know how you are defining mindfulness.....hard to read..but> > almost sounds like you're trying to beat yourself into a mindful> > state.> > If you do that, you'll just flip back and forth like a seal. It's> > not> > avoidance vs. mindfulness...itsstepping with your values more and> > more> > of the time.> >> >> >> >> > Most of all give yourself the gift of time. Adopt that curious> > beginners> > mind every day. Be willing to drop the rope more and more.> > Experiment> > with lots of exercises from the books. Make up your own. If you are> > going to choose your avoidance behavior, at least

do so with your> > eyes> > open and watch what happens. Not with judgment though!> >> >> >> >> > And know you aren't alone...I'm fortunate in that I do have AA where> > with it's imperfections, it's an amazing free supportive> > compassionate> > place where I get to go for an hour or two or three a week and just> > let> > it all out. Even if I don't say a word, I am struck almost always by> > something in there, some space. Most amazing things happen in that> > hour..I think it has something to do with the mutual sharing of> > realizing our limitations and sharing our pain, our triumphs> > together.> >> >> >> >> > So find support groups if you can.> >> >> >> >> > I'm having trouble with my computer

keyboard so sorry if this sounds> > a> > bit choppy!> >> >> >> >> > good luck and hold lightly,> >> >> >> >> > terry> >> > > > To: ACT_for_the_Public@yah oogroups.com> > Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 9:56 PM> > Subject: Keeping up with it> >> >> >> > Hey everybody,> >> > I've been doing (or trying to do) the ACT thing for about 6 months> > now,> > and I just want to know if anybody else has the problem I'm having?> >> > That is, well, I'm finding it really hard to keep going with it> >

consistently. I'll be able to observe and defuse from my anxiety and> > make myself do things I want to (i.e. study/diet) for about a couple> > of> > days, but then its like I forget everything I've learned and go back> > into old habits of avoidance etc for a week. Then I remember "oh> > shit,> > that's right, I've gotta be mindful and all that" and get back on> > top> > for another couple of days before I "forget" all over again.> >> > My progress has been really sporadic and its really frustrating.> > It's> > also really frustrating that I only seem to be able to be> > mindful/whatever for a period of 2 - 3 days before I'm back to> > experiential avoidance for a week or two.> >> > I told this to my therapist, but she just says "you gotta manage> > yourself with a diary/practice

defusion/practice mindfulness/observe> > yourself" etc, but my problem is I do this for a bit then I 'forget'> > to> > do any of it for ages. I'm aware that this 'forgetting' is probably> > me> > not catching myself out in my old habits and then getting caught up> > in> > procrastinating/whatever till I become aware of that again, but how> > do> > I> > stop myself doing that? I know its observation and defusion, but how> > do> > I get better at that? Cause I feel like I'm really weak at it.> > I know its probably a thing you get better at with practice.> > Initially> > when I started, with increasing practice I kept getting better, but> > I've> > been at this for 6 months and its been ages since I got any better.> > I> > feel like I've plateaued and its at a point

that's well below where> > I> > wanna be.> >> > How can I improve? How do you guys manage yourselves consistently?> > How> > do you keep up with/practice mindfulness etc?> >> > Does this question even make sense (I really had trouble with> > putting> > my> > problem into words)?> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Terry, thank your for your long answer. I'm inserting my answers in your post. Warmly,Henrik Hi Henrik,Most of this makes sense, but I lose you some with the thoughts as bigsigns that point to emotions that need to be expressed physically. (Canyou maybe give an example, maybe something not too personal? If not,that's fine). It's just that for me, there's a lot of wasted old wornout useless thoughts occupying valuable land up there in that organbetween my ears. Many of them have worn out there welcome in terms offunction. Old and stinky and automatic. Prison sentences, you know?Where did they come from? Some thoughts landed there randomly andarbitrarily, some learned. Important patterns to notice so that I canaccept and defuse and turn toward values, but not really anywhere asinteresting as what you seem to describe I'm afraid. Very booring, oldstuff. But maybe it's just a language thing and I'm misunderstandingwhat you're meaning.Yes, I agree. Some thoughts are really old and I guess they could be seen as useless in that they should not guide behavior. What I meant was: When I get them, I focus on my body. For me, personally - I mean my thoughts, those thoughts mostly indicate fear. The repetitiveness of the mind is a short time cure for fear. I'm bombarded with useless thoughts so that I don't have to experience life or my emotions, or interactions with other people or what's in front of me. I therefore change the label from "intruding thoughts" to "thoughts as signs that I need to focus on my life, my physicality apart from thoughts". Like if you where on a scenic route, driving your car and all the signs said: "look at the view". I don't know if this makes sense. Thoughts are like that, I think. Signs that point in a direction and that direction is not what the thoughts in themselves are saying. Thoughts are a lot of the time in their literal meaning historic mental junk. I'm not talking about the literal meaning of the thoughts. I'm talking about the phenomena of repetitive thought. My very personal guess is that that phenomena is a behavior my organism does when it's overwhelmed by emotions and memories in the present that it can't handle. Sometimes though, thoughts are meaningful and should indeed guide behavior ("don't go into that dark alley, you will probably get mugged"). And a lot of the times they're junk. When they are I take them as a sign that I'm overwhelmed and that I need to go back to the present - in my case the present is unfortunately - often scary. I'm afraid a lot of the time. To be able to be in the present, I need to take care of, acknowledge, accept and express my fear. I have found that if I allow myself to shake in a way that isn't observed by others, I can keep being present and interact with people. I don't imply that anybody else should shake, but for me - it works. A lot of the people can just accept the emotion and that's it. I can't seem to do that. When I try, I just dissociate or numb out. If I keep my body moving ever so slightly while feeling fear - I can keep feeling the fear. Also, the part about doing committed action later..for me it's beenimportant doing whatever new kind of valued behavior I can muster upnow. The reverse compass, pattern smashing stuff now. Because theaddiction had become so destructive and time consuming and really somindlessly automatic, like Pavlov's dog salivating. So I'd say one ofthe most valuable things recovering has been to take on a couple ofcommitments now. Like volunteer. Fill up time in healthy, valuablechunks. Go to a meeting with the intent of being helpful, creating asafe compassionate space. A chance to enjoy your drive and be presentand maybe..who knows what else?Get my arms and legs moving doinganything new and valued, baby steps like keeping to a morning routinecan be huge. And then gently notice what it's like if you do or don'tkeep the commitment.Yes, I agree, do committed action - very good. But if you're like me, you whip yourself into "doing something good" no matter what. And that's just bullying yoursel. Do it when you can, not when you feel you must. Very hard to know when, though. Do you see what I meant? Please correct me if you think that's needed. So emotional work, for sure. I guess it all compliments one another inthe end, you know? But I needed straight away to act in new, flexibleways to help break the automaticity, the destructive hypnotic cycle.Picking up the phone as you mention here to tell a friend I have an urgeto drink now would be excellent example of contrary behavior, and avalued thing to do. Nothing wrong there, but maybe pause a microsecond first and sense the urge. With love. Just a microsecond. Just a suggestion. I do that too, and I can stand it a microsecond sometimes, and sometimes I just get numb. Then go and call your friend and maybe report to him/her how that microsecond was. I'm guessing many don't even do that...especially ifthey have every intention to drink and they know that calling wouldbreak that cycle. But if you're willing to do that, that's fantastic--if for no other reason than to do something new! Just calling people tosay hi even. Reach out and see how it goes for a change (vs. stay inyour head, self-isolate). Surprising myself is something I'm learning,shaking things up. I never thought of the phone call as defusion, but Isee what you mean...very cool example! A bit like free-style personalwriting can be for me. But yes, I do agree with you in general aboutjust how important the acceptance and mindfulness work is too. starts his new workbook "Wisdom to Know the Difference" sobeautifully with a discussion of the inclined heart and six breaths onpurpose. A very important place to begin. The posture of self-kindness,self-validation and just learning a bit more about stillness with thediscomfort seems so very critical...and it's a piece I do see missingwith a lot of folks. In AA they put the meditation and prayer step laterin the book and it really should be one of the first things! At leastthe idea about breathing, for goodness sake. Lot's of people (myselfincluded) actually forget to take a breath. Some people will even say:"I'm not on that step, so I'm not doing that yet". :-)Thank you for this conversation, Terry! Please keep it coming. I learn a lot, as you can imagine. Warmly HenrikWarm regards,terryTo: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2012 2:33 AMSubject: Re: Keeping up with itLong post...Thank you Terry, it's interesting to hear about how it works in AA. I'vebeen in emotional support groups a lot, and there seems to be a lot ofsimilarities. Even though alcohol is not my "thing", I can't see there'smuch difference between how you and I relate to things. You buy a bottleof wine and want to drive to the store for more - only you can't drive -damn! :)I'm alway active in my head, worry, plan - I can't bother to name all myaddictions - and want to do more - and if I only can I do more. It'sjust endless, endless.That's why I have to be endless back in taking care of my emotions. Ihave to be as persistent as the pull to do the addiction. As thosemarathon dancers way back - the woman has to keep following the man inthe dance. And in this case I'm the woman following the addiction withemotional processing.By following like this- I eventually get more wiggling space and can gofrom avoidance (addiction in the broadest possible sense) to valuedliving.I have lately begun to see my thoughts as big signs that point toemotions that need to be expressed physically. I see that negativethoughts have that very important function. There are no unnecessaryspare parts in my mind. They all have their function. They have all cometo be because of my learning history and now point at the stuff whereI'm fused and avoiding.I didn't mean that you must try to figure out exactly what the triggerwas that made you want to go into addiction. Figuring out would most ofthe time get you even more mindy which in itself is avoiding.W hat I mean is: when you have an impulse to do an addiction - it meansthere's probably a lot of emotional work that needs to be done(defusion, acceptance). Committed action usually comes after that. Youcan't force the stuff - meaning you can't see behind corners mostly.When you're in the middle of fusion and avoidance, you're occupied withthat unfortunately. So then you can't see what your next valued step is- except the ones so important: defusion and acceptance. Defusion couldbe to call or text someone and spill your beans (I want to do myaddiction right now - I need to talk to you), or be sad and cry, or bescared and shake, or do mindfulness or do whatever works for you...But - I don't want to be naive about this. For me, at least, the pull ofaddiction is there all the time (checking, worrying, reading, pushingmyself). So I need to be very patient with myself and at the same timenot lose the process of taking care of the underlying triggers that'scommanding my behavior. And I refer to triggers in a very loose way: Imostly have no idea of what the triggers are. That's OK. I will perhapsknow more about them when I've done more work. mostly it's just steeringinto a dense fog with a vague idea of where I'm going. I'm steeringtowards my values (being in the present, having a calm and loving life).Addiction is the opposite of that (agitation, zoning out...).Makes sense??Henrik> > > > > Beautiful yes..I think maybe I'll respond to this in pieces...so many> goodies here.> > > > I'm not sure I agree that there is nothing random about addiction. I> suppose maybe it's how we're defining it. Maybe you could elaborate> more?> > > > Yes,I do see a lot of reasons why I drank but I have given up figuring> it all out as in "trying to get to the bottom of it"...like I didn't> have this or that as a child...> > It is sometimes helpful to be aware of current triggers, but honestly> for me..almost anything can be a trigger! Life is a trigger for me!> > > > > Maybe I can explain it better:> > > > Sometimes I am just in the store and I see the bottle of wine and the> next thing I know I'm buying it and taking it home and pouring myself> a> glass. "I'll just have one glass" I tell myself. You know, take the> edge> off. Loosen up some.I'll be able to make that difficult phone call.> > > > Next thing I know a few hours have passed and the bottle is empty. Now> I'm unable to do much. My head is fuzzy. That warm, loose feeling is> wearing off and I'm antsy, agitated. I get hurt much more quickly.> Maybe> even lash out and write or say things I later regret. I can't drive> (although I did in the past...to go get more, or get some food..."it's> just around the corner, it won't matter, I can manage it").> > > > Now, if I back up and learn..I can see that I was feeling "off" that> day. I was sad about something. Or angry. Or anxious. Lonely. Hungry.> All triggers.> > But It could be more simpler..I'm just tired, didn't sleep well...so> it> could be almost anything that triggered the thought "I want that wine> now. It will help me".> > > > > So that's why i say life is a trigger..or maybe better put, this mindy> mind is trigger! Fusion with that that thought that I must have it!> And> fusion with belief that I can manage just one glass and save rest for> later. (Some times I could, which made things even more tricky in> terms> of believing I could always control the outcome)> > > > > That's where ACT is so helpful. If I can slow down enough to notice> and> accept the strong urge to numb out and if I defuse and then remember> my> values...and if I've practiced enough, it gets easier. Suddenly I have> lots of choices. I am a freer woman.> > > > > I can just walk out of the store, for example. I have legs, after all.> No-one is forcing me to buy that wine obviously.> > > > > But it takes an ability to pause and a desire to be present with the> thought and then willingness to respond in a new valued way.> > > > > Scary stuff if you're used to just numbing out.> > > > Some people in my meetings allow themselves to play the tape/story out> fully of their past horrible episodes and this is enough to stop them.> > > > But yes, I hear you about the unmet needs that are there.. I do love> that ACT is humanistic that way..where the suffering is almost masking> an unmet need or thwarted value. That's why we do not shut the door> precipitously and we honor what our body, our hearts are telling us.> Many gems hiding underneath if we are willing to listen, hold lightly.> > > > Sometimes it's simple as a needing a hug. A hot shower. A good cry.> Sometimes an action needs to happen.> > > > > I do notice that the people who seem most content are notin their> heads> nearly as much as I am. I'm too isolated and have too much time on my> hands these days. Not good.> > Many healthy people it seems are engaged in meaningful work, or have> families, community involvement, routines, friends...> > > > I'm thinking one of the reasons why the meeting is helpful is for an> hour I am not alone..and I become privy to some of the most exquisite> suffering... and this does take me out of my head. I hear myself in> other people's sharing and together, we are bearing witness to the> pain,> telling stories like the one I just wrote. Healing together, laughing,> crying.> > Okay, some people get preachy and that IS annoying. But hey, you takes> the bad with the good, ya know? And some meetings are much better for> me..they do vary quite a bit.> > > > You just hear things in those rooms you've never heard. Incredible> heroism, suffering.> > I have been more honest in there then all my years in therapy!> > It's very easy to leave out huge chunks of your story for years.> > You just don't mention it..part of the denial.> > Like the fact that I used to drink just to have courage to make> calls..and I never realized I was actually drinking just to make a> friggn phone call until someone else in my meeting said that's what> she> used to do..another important reason to be around other recovering> people...we remember together just how insane our behavior was!> > > > > Oh, that was more than I thought I would write and still have more> thoughts about your lovely post here, Henrik.> > > > > Thanks for this very interesting conversation..more later.> > > > > warmly,> > terry> > > > > > To: "ACT_for_the_Public "> <ACT_for_the_Public >;> ACT_for_the_Public ; "Henrik Nordin,"> > Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 1:53 AM> Subject: Re: Keeping up with it> > > > And also...> > > > > I tend to think about repetitive thoughts and behavior - e.g. worrying> and addictive behavior - not as something to get rid of - but as> something that points to a need. I guess the need is different for> everybody, but most of the time for me it's the need to accept and> process emotions.> > > > > I tried to link my post to the different processes in the hexaflex.> > > > > (Hexaflex: fusion - need for values and committed action or> acceptance)> > > > > If I worry - the worry is pointing to the need for me to process> underlying anxiety. (acceptance)> > If I do addictions (like all the time - duh!), it's pointing to the> underlying emotions that are present in my body in the present moment.> (present moment awareness + acceptance)> > > > > Really simple, not complicated. Thoughts have a function - they are> not> random or silly - they point to a need. Once the need is met (like> emotional processing - acceptance or changing things in my life -> committed action), the thoughts are no longer there in the present> moment (defusion). Then different thoughts emerge, pointing to> different> needs. And on and on....> > > > > Same with addiction. There's not anything random in addiction.> Addiction> points to a need (value). I will never get rid of addictions by> suppressing addictive behavior alone (avoidance). That will only lead> me> to other addictions that are more accepted by the culture I'm in...> The> only way to get rid of addictions is to learn how to process emotions> (radical acceptance) or change my life (committed action), whichever> is> on top at the moment (present moment awareness).> > > > > I could elaborate more...> > > > > Hope this makes sense...> > > > > Henrik> > > > > > > > > > > > > Nice Terry!> > I was sitting at the beach a few days ago. Relaxing but also> > worrying> > (another addiction) - and I suddenly could sense an alternative.> > Like> > another way of living. Taking it slow. Not pushing myself past a> > natural> > want for activity.> >> >> >> >> > I believe this is my valued life.> >> >> >> >> > On the other hand, when I fill myself with worrying, or checking> > things> > out (on e-mail, facebook, twitter.. you name it) or pushing myself> > like> > crazy, I'm filled from head to toe and beyond with a kind of dull> > fullness. It's very familiar, scary... The funny thing is: how can> > it> > be> > so addictive when it's also so uncomfortable and scary?> >> >> >> >> > Maybe another way to put it:> >> > I heard someone say that your fear of (pain) is nothing compared to> > your> > fear of love.> >> >> >> >> > So I guess I'm terrified of this calm and relaxed life filled with> > love> > for myself and others.> >> >> >> >> > Can't we all encourage each other to go towards a calm, relaxed and> > loving life?> >> > Can't we also support each other when we get stuck in addiction,> > over> > activation, frantic pursuit, isolation? I mean - not giving up on> > ourselves or on others when we or them get stuck in it and believe> > it's> > the only way and that a loving, relaxed life is just a silly day> > dream.> >> >> >> >> > I heard a nice metaphor once: that we have a big plastic fabric over> > our> > heads with electric lights that act as stars. We then believe they> > are> > the the real stars. It's not so, beyond the electric lamps and> > plastic> > fabric, there's the real sky with shining stars. Let's not fool> > ourselves or giving up. A life filled with addictions and frantic> > behavior is the same as staring at a plastic fabric with fake stars.> >> >> >> >> > Without support and community, we will never be able to see the real> > sky, I think. That's why I enjoy this listserve.> >> >> >> >> > Does it make sense?> >> >> >> >> > Warmly,> >> > Henrik> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > On 13 aug 2012 19:47 "Theresa Linder" > > wrote:> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > BTW, when I say the avoidance works on some levels I mean "work"> > > very> > > loosely, in that they provide some key functions physically and> > > emotionally.> > >> > >> > >> > > For me, my drinking provided temporary relief, a warm feeling.> > > That> > > unfortunately evaporated as writes as quickly as a> > >> > > drop of water on a hot summer sidewalk. And..as has said> > > (paraphrasing!)...costs... Huge..consequences like consistently> > > dragging> > > myself and others to the ground.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > In the long run, the avoidance behaviors mostly don't work or we> > > wouldn't be suffering so.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Here are other sneaky secondary gains of avoidance behavior (not> > > just> > > alcohol/drugs)..The behavior can include overeating, gambling,> > > hoarding,> > > shopping, excessive internet use, excessive/obsessive> > > rumination/regret/rehashing with past,excessive> > > planning/rehearsing> > > for> > > future, excessive arguing/debating.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Some seductive, life-sucking goodies I've noted:> > >> > >> > >> > > Momentary feeling of being right, being in control.> > >> > > Less ambivalence in terms of what this moment, this day will bring> > > me..I'll force my will on it and decide, maybe even create> > > drama..anything rather than sit in that uncomfortable ambiguity.> > >> > > Believing as though I've truly accomplished something with all the> > > behavior--this has been especially tricky for me. Especially> > > learning> > > to> > > deal with the sadness in realizing I wasted precious moments..."we> > > do> > > not regret the past, nor do we shut the door on it".> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > All of these go on my AA Step 1 (and then Step 4) list where I> > > admit> > > just how unmanageable my life is..a good place for my suffering> > > inventory in ACT terms.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Hope that makes sense and helps others.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > terry> > >> > > > > > To: "ACT_for_the_Public "> > > <ACT_for_the_Public >> > > Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 8:40 AM> > > Subject: Re: Keeping up with it> > >> > >> > >> > > It sounds like you may be just where you need to be.> > >> > >> > >> > > Some assorted thoughts:> > >> > >> > >> > > Helps me and my recovery friends to do a daily routine such a> > > simple> > > morning prayer to my higher power, asking for guidance.> > >> > >> > >> > > And a gratitude journal or just a daily list of things, even tiny> > > things.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Every little bit of joy, newness, success let in. Try to let go of> > > grading yourself with a measuring stick which adds to> > > self-deprecation> > > and objectification "I'm below where I want to be".> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Avoidance behavior brings on many secondary gains (on some levels> > > they> > > really work) so it's very tricky stuff.> > >> > >> > >> > > And if you've been doing it for a while it will take time to let> > > them> > > go> > > in favor of behavior that is> > >> > > value oriented.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Put in place the reverse compass and do whatever small contrary> > > valued> > > behavior you can every day. Any little thing that is new, a> > > stretch,> > > valued.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > The self-compassion practices in Neff's book are helping me.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > I don't know how you are using defusing, but it's not designed to> > > "make> > > yourself do things". And don't know what you mean by "I gotta be> > > mindful> > > and all that".> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Sounds like some toxic 'shoulding' going on!> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > I don't know how you are defining mindfulness.....hard to> > > read..but> > > almost sounds like you're trying to beat yourself into a mindful> > > state.> > > If you do that, you'll just flip back and forth like a seal. It's> > > not> > > avoidance vs. mindfulness...itsstepping with your values more and> > > more> > > of the time.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Most of all give yourself the gift of time. Adopt that curious> > > beginners> > > mind every day. Be willing to drop the rope more and more.> > > Experiment> > > with lots of exercises from the books. Make up your own. If you> > > are> > > going to choose your avoidance behavior, at least do so with your> > > eyes> > > open and watch what happens. Not with judgment though!> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > And know you aren't alone...I'm fortunate in that I do have AA> > > where> > > with it's imperfections, it's an amazing free supportive> > > compassionate> > > place where I get to go for an hour or two or three a week and> > > just> > > let> > > it all out. Even if I don't say a word, I am struck almost always> > > by> > > something in there, some space. Most amazing things happen in that> > > hour..I think it has something to do with the mutual sharing of> > > realizing our limitations and sharing our pain, our triumphs> > > together.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > So find support groups if you can.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > I'm having trouble with my computer keyboard so sorry if this> > > sounds> > > a> > > bit choppy!> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > good luck and hold lightly,> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > terry> > >> > > > > > To: ACT_for_the_Public@yah oogroups.com> > > Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 9:56 PM> > > Subject: Keeping up with it> > >> > >> > >> > > Hey everybody,> > >> > > I've been doing (or trying to do) the ACT thing for about 6 months> > > now,> > > and I just want to know if anybody else has the problem I'm> > > having?> > >> > > That is, well, I'm finding it really hard to keep going with it> > > consistently. I'll be able to observe and defuse from my anxiety> > > and> > > make myself do things I want to (i.e. study/diet) for about a> > > couple> > > of> > > days, but then its like I forget everything I've learned and go> > > back> > > into old habits of avoidance etc for a week. Then I remember "oh> > > shit,> > > that's right, I've gotta be mindful and all that" and get back on> > > top> > > for another couple of days before I "forget" all over again.> > >> > > My progress has been really sporadic and its really frustrating.> > > It's> > > also really frustrating that I only seem to be able to be> > > mindful/whatever for a period of 2 - 3 days before I'm back to> > > experiential avoidance for a week or two.> > >> > > I told this to my therapist, but she just says "you gotta manage> > > yourself with a diary/practice defusion/practice> > > mindfulness/observe> > > yourself" etc, but my problem is I do this for a bit then I> > > 'forget'> > > to> > > do any of it for ages. I'm aware that this 'forgetting' is> > > probably> > > me> > > not catching myself out in my old habits and then getting caught> > > up> > > in> > > procrastinating/whatever till I become aware of that again, but> > > how> > > do> > > I> > > stop myself doing that? I know its observation and defusion, but> > > how> > > do> > > I get better at that? Cause I feel like I'm really weak at it.> > > I know its probably a thing you get better at with practice.> > > Initially> > > when I started, with increasing practice I kept getting better,> > > but> > > I've> > > been at this for 6 months and its been ages since I got any> > > better.> > > I> > > feel like I've plateaued and its at a point that's well below> > > where> > > I> > > wanna be.> > >> > > How can I improve? How do you guys manage yourselves consistently?> > > How> > > do you keep up with/practice mindfulness etc?> > >> > > Does this question even make sense (I really had trouble with> > > putting> > > my> > > problem into words)?> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

I don't have too much time now but i just needed you to know I am laughing at the image of having all the road signs say"Look at the view". Thank you so much for that, Henrik...more later..am preparing dinner.. (not Child, for sure).Warm regards,Terry To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public >; ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 8:28 AM Subject: Re: Keeping up with it

Hi Terry, thank your for your long answer. I'm inserting my answers in your post. Warmly,Henrik Hi Henrik,Most of this makes sense, but I lose you some with the thoughts as bigsigns that point to emotions that need to be expressed physically. (Canyou maybe give an example, maybe something not too personal? If not,that's fine). It's just that for me, there's a lot of wasted old wornout useless thoughts occupying valuable land up there in that organbetween my ears. Many of them have worn out there welcome in terms offunction. Old and stinky and automatic. Prison sentences, you know?Where did they come from? Some

thoughts landed there randomly andarbitrarily, some learned. Important patterns to notice so that I canaccept and defuse and turn toward values, but not really anywhere asinteresting as what you seem to describe I'm afraid. Very booring, oldstuff. But maybe it's just a language thing and I'm misunderstandingwhat you're meaning.Yes, I agree. Some thoughts are really old and I guess they could be seen as useless in that they should not guide behavior. What I meant was: When I get them, I focus on my body. For me, personally - I mean my thoughts, those thoughts mostly indicate fear. The repetitiveness of the mind is a short time cure for fear. I'm bombarded with useless thoughts so that I don't have to experience life or my emotions, or interactions with other people or what's in front of me. I therefore change the label from "intruding thoughts" to "thoughts as signs that I need to focus on my life, my physicality apart from thoughts". Like if you where on a scenic route, driving your car and all the signs said: "look at the view". I don't know if this makes sense. Thoughts are like that, I think. Signs that point in a direction and that direction is not what the thoughts in themselves are saying. Thoughts are a lot of the time in their literal meaning historic mental junk. I'm not talking about the literal meaning of the thoughts. I'm talking about the phenomena of repetitive thought. My very personal guess is that that phenomena is a behavior my organism does when it's overwhelmed by emotions and memories in the present that it can't handle. Sometimes though, thoughts are meaningful and should indeed guide behavior ("don't go into that dark alley, you will probably

get mugged"). And a lot of the times they're junk. When they are I take them as a sign that I'm overwhelmed and that I need to go back to the present - in my case the present is unfortunately - often scary. I'm afraid a lot of the time. To be able to be in the present, I need to take care of, acknowledge, accept and express my fear. I have found that if I allow myself to shake in a way that isn't observed by others, I can keep being present and interact with people. I don't imply that anybody else should shake, but for me - it works. A lot of the people can just accept the emotion and that's it. I can't seem to do that. When I try, I just dissociate or numb out. If I keep my body moving ever so slightly while feeling fear - I can keep feeling the fear. Also, the part about doing committed action later..for me it's beenimportant doing whatever new kind of valued behavior I can muster upnow. The reverse compass, pattern

smashing stuff now. Because theaddiction had become so destructive and time consuming and really somindlessly automatic, like Pavlov's dog salivating. So I'd say one ofthe most valuable things recovering has been to take on a couple ofcommitments now. Like volunteer. Fill up time in healthy, valuablechunks. Go to a meeting with the intent of being helpful, creating asafe compassionate space. A chance to enjoy your drive and be presentand maybe..who knows what else?Get my arms and legs moving doinganything new and valued, baby steps like keeping to a morning routinecan be huge. And then gently notice what it's like if you do or don'tkeep the commitment.Yes, I agree, do committed action - very good. But if you're like me, you whip yourself into "doing something good" no matter what. And that's just bullying yoursel. Do

it when you can, not when you feel you must. Very hard to know when, though. Do you see what I meant? Please correct me if you think that's needed. So emotional work, for sure. I guess it all compliments one another inthe end, you know? But I needed straight away to act in new, flexibleways to help break the automaticity, the destructive hypnotic cycle.Picking up the phone as you mention here to tell a friend I have an urgeto drink now would be excellent example of contrary behavior, and avalued thing to do. Nothing wrong there, but maybe pause a microsecond first and sense the urge. With love. Just a microsecond. Just a suggestion. I do that too, and I can stand it a microsecond sometimes, and sometimes I just get numb. Then go and call your friend and maybe report to him/her how that microsecond was. I'm guessing many don't even do that...especially ifthey have every intention to drink and they know that calling wouldbreak that cycle. But if you're willing to do that, that's fantastic--if for no other reason than to do something new! Just calling people tosay hi even. Reach out and see how it goes for a change (vs. stay inyour head, self-isolate). Surprising myself is something I'm learning,shaking things up. I never thought of the phone call

as defusion, but Isee what you mean...very cool example! A bit like free-style personalwriting can be for me. But yes, I do agree with you in general aboutjust how important the acceptance and mindfulness work is too. starts his new workbook "Wisdom to Know the Difference" sobeautifully with a discussion of the inclined heart and six breaths onpurpose. A very important place to begin. The posture of self-kindness,self-validation and just learning a bit more about stillness with thediscomfort seems so very critical...and it's a piece I do see missingwith a lot of folks. In AA they put the meditation and prayer step laterin the book and it really should be one of the first things! At leastthe idea about breathing, for goodness sake. Lot's of people (myselfincluded) actually forget to take a breath. Some people will even say:"I'm not on that step, so I'm not doing that yet".

:-)Thank you for this conversation, Terry! Please keep it coming. I learn a lot, as you can imagine. Warmly HenrikWarm regards,terryTo: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2012 2:33 AMSubject: Re: Keeping up with itLong post...Thank you Terry, it's interesting to hear about how it works in AA.

I'vebeen in emotional support groups a lot, and there seems to be a lot ofsimilarities. Even though alcohol is not my "thing", I can't see there'smuch difference between how you and I relate to things. You buy a bottleof wine and want to drive to the store for more - only you can't drive -damn! :)I'm alway active in my head, worry, plan - I can't bother to name all myaddictions - and want to do more - and if I only can I do more. It'sjust endless, endless.That's why I have to be endless back in taking care of my emotions. Ihave to be as persistent as the pull to do the addiction. As thosemarathon dancers way back - the woman has to keep following the man inthe dance. And in this case I'm the woman following the addiction withemotional processing.By following like this- I eventually get more wiggling space and can gofrom avoidance (addiction in the broadest

possible sense) to valuedliving.I have lately begun to see my thoughts as big signs that point toemotions that need to be expressed physically. I see that negativethoughts have that very important function. There are no unnecessaryspare parts in my mind. They all have their function. They have all cometo be because of my learning history and now point at the stuff whereI'm fused and avoiding.I didn't mean that you must try to figure out exactly what the triggerwas that made you want to go into addiction. Figuring out would most ofthe time get you even more mindy which in itself is avoiding.W hat I mean is: when you have an impulse to do an addiction - it meansthere's probably a lot of emotional work that needs to be done(defusion, acceptance). Committed action usually comes after that. Youcan't force the stuff - meaning you can't see behind corners

mostly.When you're in the middle of fusion and avoidance, you're occupied withthat unfortunately. So then you can't see what your next valued step is- except the ones so important: defusion and acceptance. Defusion couldbe to call or text someone and spill your beans (I want to do myaddiction right now - I need to talk to you), or be sad and cry, or bescared and shake, or do mindfulness or do whatever works for you...But - I don't want to be naive about this. For me, at least, the pull ofaddiction is there all the time (checking, worrying, reading, pushingmyself). So I need to be very patient with myself and at the same timenot lose the process of taking care of the underlying triggers that'scommanding my behavior. And I refer to triggers in a very loose way: Imostly have no idea of what the triggers are. That's OK. I will perhapsknow more about them when I've done more work. mostly

it's just steeringinto a dense fog with a vague idea of where I'm going. I'm steeringtowards my values (being in the present, having a calm and loving life).Addiction is the opposite of that (agitation, zoning out...).Makes sense??Henrik> > > > > Beautiful yes..I think maybe I'll respond to this in pieces...so many> goodies here.> > > > I'm not sure I agree that there is nothing random about addiction. I> suppose maybe it's how we're defining it. Maybe you could elaborate> more?> > > > Yes,I do see a lot of reasons why I drank but I have given up figuring> it all out as in

"trying to get to the bottom of it"...like I didn't> have this or that as a child...> > It is sometimes helpful to be aware of current triggers, but honestly> for me..almost anything can be a trigger! Life is a trigger for me!> > > > > Maybe I can explain it better:> > > > Sometimes I am just in the store and I see the bottle of wine and the> next thing I know I'm buying it and taking it home and pouring myself> a> glass. "I'll just have one glass" I tell myself. You know, take the> edge> off. Loosen up some.I'll be able to make that difficult phone call.> > > > Next thing I know a few hours have passed and the bottle is empty. Now> I'm unable to do much. My head is fuzzy. That warm, loose feeling is> wearing off and I'm antsy, agitated. I get hurt much more quickly.> Maybe>

even lash out and write or say things I later regret. I can't drive> (although I did in the past...to go get more, or get some food..."it's> just around the corner, it won't matter, I can manage it").> > > > Now, if I back up and learn..I can see that I was feeling "off" that> day. I was sad about something. Or angry. Or anxious. Lonely. Hungry.> All triggers.> > But It could be more simpler..I'm just tired, didn't sleep well...so> it> could be almost anything that triggered the thought "I want that wine> now. It will help me".> > > > > So that's why i say life is a trigger..or maybe better put, this mindy> mind is trigger! Fusion with that that thought that I must have it!> And> fusion with belief that I can manage just one glass and save rest for> later. (Some times I could, which made things even

more tricky in> terms> of believing I could always control the outcome)> > > > > That's where ACT is so helpful. If I can slow down enough to notice> and> accept the strong urge to numb out and if I defuse and then remember> my> values...and if I've practiced enough, it gets easier. Suddenly I have> lots of choices. I am a freer woman.> > > > > I can just walk out of the store, for example. I have legs, after all.> No-one is forcing me to buy that wine obviously.> > > > > But it takes an ability to pause and a desire to be present with the> thought and then willingness to respond in a new valued way.> > > > > Scary stuff if you're used to just numbing out.> > > > Some people in my meetings allow themselves to play the

tape/story out> fully of their past horrible episodes and this is enough to stop them.> > > > But yes, I hear you about the unmet needs that are there.. I do love> that ACT is humanistic that way..where the suffering is almost masking> an unmet need or thwarted value. That's why we do not shut the door> precipitously and we honor what our body, our hearts are telling us.> Many gems hiding underneath if we are willing to listen, hold lightly.> > > > Sometimes it's simple as a needing a hug. A hot shower. A good cry.> Sometimes an action needs to happen.> > > > > I do notice that the people who seem most content are notin their> heads> nearly as much as I am. I'm too isolated and have too much time on my> hands these days. Not good.> > Many healthy people it seems are engaged in meaningful

work, or have> families, community involvement, routines, friends...> > > > I'm thinking one of the reasons why the meeting is helpful is for an> hour I am not alone..and I become privy to some of the most exquisite> suffering... and this does take me out of my head. I hear myself in> other people's sharing and together, we are bearing witness to the> pain,> telling stories like the one I just wrote. Healing together, laughing,> crying.> > Okay, some people get preachy and that IS annoying. But hey, you takes> the bad with the good, ya know? And some meetings are much better for> me..they do vary quite a bit.> > > > You just hear things in those rooms you've never heard. Incredible> heroism, suffering.> > I have been more honest in there then all my years in therapy!> > It's very easy to

leave out huge chunks of your story for years.> > You just don't mention it..part of the denial.> > Like the fact that I used to drink just to have courage to make> calls..and I never realized I was actually drinking just to make a> friggn phone call until someone else in my meeting said that's what> she> used to do..another important reason to be around other recovering> people...we remember together just how insane our behavior was!> > > > > Oh, that was more than I thought I would write and still have more> thoughts about your lovely post here, Henrik.> > > > > Thanks for this very interesting conversation..more later.> > > > > warmly,> > terry> > > > > > To: "ACT_for_the_Public "> <ACT_for_the_Public >;> ACT_for_the_Public ; "Henrik Nordin,"> > Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 1:53 AM> Subject: Re: Keeping up with it> > > > And also...> > > > > I tend to think about repetitive thoughts and behavior - e.g. worrying> and addictive behavior - not as something to get rid of - but as> something that points to a need. I guess the need is different for> everybody, but most of the time for me it's the need to accept and> process

emotions.> > > > > I tried to link my post to the different processes in the hexaflex.> > > > > (Hexaflex: fusion - need for values and committed action or> acceptance)> > > > > If I worry - the worry is pointing to the need for me to process> underlying anxiety. (acceptance)> > If I do addictions (like all the time - duh!), it's pointing to the> underlying emotions that are present in my body in the present moment.> (present moment awareness + acceptance)> > > > > Really simple, not complicated. Thoughts have a function - they are> not> random or silly - they point to a need. Once the need is met (like> emotional processing - acceptance or changing things in my life -> committed action), the thoughts are no longer there in the present>

moment (defusion). Then different thoughts emerge, pointing to> different> needs. And on and on....> > > > > Same with addiction. There's not anything random in addiction.> Addiction> points to a need (value). I will never get rid of addictions by> suppressing addictive behavior alone (avoidance). That will only lead> me> to other addictions that are more accepted by the culture I'm in...> The> only way to get rid of addictions is to learn how to process emotions> (radical acceptance) or change my life (committed action), whichever> is> on top at the moment (present moment awareness).> > > > > I could elaborate more...> > > > > Hope this makes sense...> > > > > Henrik> > > > > > >

> > > > > > Nice Terry!> > I was sitting at the beach a few days ago. Relaxing but also> > worrying> > (another addiction) - and I suddenly could sense an alternative.> > Like> > another way of living. Taking it slow. Not pushing myself past a> > natural> > want for activity.> >> >> >> >> > I believe this is my valued life.> >> >> >> >> > On the other hand, when I fill myself with worrying, or checking> > things> > out (on e-mail, facebook, twitter.. you name it) or pushing myself> > like> > crazy, I'm filled from head to

toe and beyond with a kind of dull> > fullness. It's very familiar, scary... The funny thing is: how can> > it> > be> > so addictive when it's also so uncomfortable and scary?> >> >> >> >> > Maybe another way to put it:> >> > I heard someone say that your fear of (pain) is nothing compared to> > your> > fear of love.> >> >> >> >> > So I guess I'm terrified of this calm and relaxed life filled with> > love> > for myself and others.> >> >> >> >> > Can't we all encourage each other to go towards a calm, relaxed and> > loving life?> >> > Can't we also support each other when we get stuck in addiction,> > over> > activation, frantic pursuit, isolation? I mean -

not giving up on> > ourselves or on others when we or them get stuck in it and believe> > it's> > the only way and that a loving, relaxed life is just a silly day> > dream.> >> >> >> >> > I heard a nice metaphor once: that we have a big plastic fabric over> > our> > heads with electric lights that act as stars. We then believe they> > are> > the the real stars. It's not so, beyond the electric lamps and> > plastic> > fabric, there's the real sky with shining stars. Let's not fool> > ourselves or giving up. A life filled with addictions and frantic> > behavior is the same as staring at a plastic fabric with fake stars.> >> >> >> >> > Without support and community, we will never be able to see the real> > sky, I think. That's why

I enjoy this listserve.> >> >> >> >> > Does it make sense?> >> >> >> >> > Warmly,> >> > Henrik> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > On 13 aug 2012 19:47 "Theresa Linder" > > wrote:> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > BTW, when I say the avoidance works on some levels I mean "work"> > > very> > > loosely, in that they provide some key functions physically and> > > emotionally.> > >> > >> > >> > > For me, my drinking provided temporary relief, a warm

feeling.> > > That> > > unfortunately evaporated as writes as quickly as a> > >> > > drop of water on a hot summer sidewalk. And..as has said> > > (paraphrasing!)...costs... Huge..consequences like consistently> > > dragging> > > myself and others to the ground.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > In the long run, the avoidance behaviors mostly don't work or we> > > wouldn't be suffering so.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Here are other sneaky secondary gains of avoidance behavior (not> > > just> > > alcohol/drugs)..The behavior can include overeating, gambling,> > > hoarding,> > > shopping, excessive internet use, excessive/obsessive> > >

rumination/regret/rehashing with past,excessive> > > planning/rehearsing> > > for> > > future, excessive arguing/debating.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Some seductive, life-sucking goodies I've noted:> > >> > >> > >> > > Momentary feeling of being right, being in control.> > >> > > Less ambivalence in terms of what this moment, this day will bring> > > me..I'll force my will on it and decide, maybe even create> > > drama..anything rather than sit in that uncomfortable ambiguity.> > >> > > Believing as though I've truly accomplished something with all the> > > behavior--this has been especially tricky for me. Especially> > > learning> > > to> > > deal with the sadness in

realizing I wasted precious moments..."we> > > do> > > not regret the past, nor do we shut the door on it".> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > All of these go on my AA Step 1 (and then Step 4) list where I> > > admit> > > just how unmanageable my life is..a good place for my suffering> > > inventory in ACT terms.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Hope that makes sense and helps others.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > terry> > >> > > > > > To: "ACT_for_the_Public "> > > <ACT_for_the_Public >> > > Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 8:40 AM> > > Subject: Re: Keeping up with it> > >> > >> > >> > > It sounds like you may be just where you need to be.> > >> > >> > >> > > Some assorted thoughts:> > >> > >> > >> > > Helps me and my recovery friends to do a daily routine such a> > > simple> > > morning prayer to my higher power, asking for guidance.> > >> > >> > >> > > And a gratitude journal or just a daily list of things, even tiny> > > things.> > >> > >> >

>> > >> > > Every little bit of joy, newness, success let in. Try to let go of> > > grading yourself with a measuring stick which adds to> > > self-deprecation> > > and objectification "I'm below where I want to be".> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Avoidance behavior brings on many secondary gains (on some levels> > > they> > > really work) so it's very tricky stuff.> > >> > >> > >> > > And if you've been doing it for a while it will take time to let> > > them> > > go> > > in favor of behavior that is> > >> > > value oriented.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Put in place the reverse compass and do whatever small contrary>

> > valued> > > behavior you can every day. Any little thing that is new, a> > > stretch,> > > valued.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > The self-compassion practices in Neff's book are helping me.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > I don't know how you are using defusing, but it's not designed to> > > "make> > > yourself do things". And don't know what you mean by "I gotta be> > > mindful> > > and all that".> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Sounds like some toxic 'shoulding' going on!> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > I don't know how you are defining mindfulness.....hard to> > > read..but> > > almost sounds

like you're trying to beat yourself into a mindful> > > state.> > > If you do that, you'll just flip back and forth like a seal. It's> > > not> > > avoidance vs. mindfulness...itsstepping with your values more and> > > more> > > of the time.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Most of all give yourself the gift of time. Adopt that curious> > > beginners> > > mind every day. Be willing to drop the rope more and more.> > > Experiment> > > with lots of exercises from the books. Make up your own. If you> > > are> > > going to choose your avoidance behavior, at least do so with your> > > eyes> > > open and watch what happens. Not with judgment though!> > >> > >> > >> >

>> > > And know you aren't alone...I'm fortunate in that I do have AA> > > where> > > with it's imperfections, it's an amazing free supportive> > > compassionate> > > place where I get to go for an hour or two or three a week and> > > just> > > let> > > it all out. Even if I don't say a word, I am struck almost always> > > by> > > something in there, some space. Most amazing things happen in that> > > hour..I think it has something to do with the mutual sharing of> > > realizing our limitations and sharing our pain, our triumphs> > > together.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > So find support groups if you can.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > I'm having trouble with my

computer keyboard so sorry if this> > > sounds> > > a> > > bit choppy!> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > good luck and hold lightly,> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > terry> > >> > > > > > To: ACT_for_the_Public@yah oogroups.com> > > Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 9:56 PM> > > Subject: Keeping up with it> > >> > >> > >> > > Hey everybody,> > >> > > I've been doing (or trying to do) the ACT thing for about 6 months> > > now,> > > and I just want to

know if anybody else has the problem I'm> > > having?> > >> > > That is, well, I'm finding it really hard to keep going with it> > > consistently. I'll be able to observe and defuse from my anxiety> > > and> > > make myself do things I want to (i.e. study/diet) for about a> > > couple> > > of> > > days, but then its like I forget everything I've learned and go> > > back> > > into old habits of avoidance etc for a week. Then I remember "oh> > > shit,> > > that's right, I've gotta be mindful and all that" and get back on> > > top> > > for another couple of days before I "forget" all over again.> > >> > > My progress has been really sporadic and its really frustrating.> > > It's> > > also really frustrating that I

only seem to be able to be> > > mindful/whatever for a period of 2 - 3 days before I'm back to> > > experiential avoidance for a week or two.> > >> > > I told this to my therapist, but she just says "you gotta manage> > > yourself with a diary/practice defusion/practice> > > mindfulness/observe> > > yourself" etc, but my problem is I do this for a bit then I> > > 'forget'> > > to> > > do any of it for ages. I'm aware that this 'forgetting' is> > > probably> > > me> > > not catching myself out in my old habits and then getting caught> > > up> > > in> > > procrastinating/whatever till I become aware of that again, but> > > how> > > do> > > I> > > stop myself doing that? I know its observation and

defusion, but> > > how> > > do> > > I get better at that? Cause I feel like I'm really weak at it.> > > I know its probably a thing you get better at with practice.> > > Initially> > > when I started, with increasing practice I kept getting better,> > > but> > > I've> > > been at this for 6 months and its been ages since I got any> > > better.> > > I> > > feel like I've plateaued and its at a point that's well below> > > where> > > I> > > wanna be.> > >> > > How can I improve? How do you guys manage yourselves consistently?> > > How> > > do you keep up with/practice mindfulness etc?> > >> > > Does this question even make sense (I really had trouble with> > >

putting> > > my> > > problem into words)?> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Hi Henrik,I am having a very busy week and will to respond more fully but just also want to add that I'm very moved by the breadth of your responses in this thread. I'm a bit perplexed that others aren't chiming in..we're supposed to have a lot of folks here (thousands?) and yet no replies to your amazing offerings here that are all about ACT, suffering, etc. ??In any case,I had an amazing dinner yesterday, because Iused the Henrik method of "enjoy the view" for a a change! So instead of the usual, "Oh, I'm doing this wrong..it's too garlicky, too this, too that...I just enjoyed the view. I am thinking this is the spirit of ACT...to create our own metaphors and visuals...and to start witheveryday simple things that we do..like driving, cooking. And so I thank

you so for just making things lighter and more creative, Henirk...I am SO DAMN HEAVY about things, and it's really old!Hold lightly all (including this),your friend,terry To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 6:29 PM Subject: Re: Keeping up with it

I don't have too much time now but i just needed you to know I am laughing at the image of having all the road signs say"Look at the view". Thank you so much for that, Henrik...more later..am preparing dinner.. (not Child, for sure).Warm regards,Terry To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public >; ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 8:28 AM Subject: Re: Keeping up with it

Hi Terry, thank your for your long answer. I'm inserting my answers in your post. Warmly,Henrik Hi Henrik,Most of this makes sense, but I lose you some with the thoughts as bigsigns that point to emotions that need to be expressed physically. (Canyou maybe give an example, maybe something not too personal? If not,that's fine). It's just that for me, there's a lot of wasted old wornout useless thoughts occupying valuable land up there in that organbetween my ears. Many of them have worn out there welcome in terms offunction. Old and stinky and automatic. Prison sentences, you know?Where did they come from? Some

thoughts landed there randomly andarbitrarily, some learned. Important patterns to notice so that I canaccept and defuse and turn toward values, but not really anywhere asinteresting as what you seem to describe I'm afraid. Very booring, oldstuff. But maybe it's just a language thing and I'm misunderstandingwhat you're meaning.Yes, I agree. Some thoughts are really old and I guess they could be seen as useless in that they should not guide behavior. What I meant was: When I get them, I focus on my body. For me, personally - I mean my thoughts, those thoughts mostly indicate fear. The repetitiveness of the mind is a short time cure for fear. I'm bombarded with useless thoughts so that I don't have to experience life or my emotions, or interactions with other people or what's in front of me. I therefore change the label from "intruding thoughts" to "thoughts as signs that I need to focus on my life, my physicality apart from thoughts". Like if you where on a scenic route, driving your car and all the signs said: "look at the view". I don't know if this makes sense. Thoughts are like that, I think. Signs that point in a direction and that direction is not what the thoughts in themselves are saying. Thoughts are a lot of the time in their literal meaning historic mental junk. I'm not talking about the literal meaning of the thoughts. I'm talking about the phenomena of repetitive thought. My very personal guess is that that phenomena is a behavior my organism does when it's overwhelmed by emotions and memories in the present that it can't handle. Sometimes though, thoughts are meaningful and should indeed guide behavior ("don't go into that dark alley, you will probably

get mugged"). And a lot of the times they're junk. When they are I take them as a sign that I'm overwhelmed and that I need to go back to the present - in my case the present is unfortunately - often scary. I'm afraid a lot of the time. To be able to be in the present, I need to take care of, acknowledge, accept and express my fear. I have found that if I allow myself to shake in a way that isn't observed by others, I can keep being present and interact with people. I don't imply that anybody else should shake, but for me - it works. A lot of the people can just accept the emotion and that's it. I can't seem to do that. When I try, I just dissociate or numb out. If I keep my body moving ever so slightly while feeling fear - I can keep feeling the fear. Also, the part about doing committed action later..for me it's beenimportant doing whatever new kind of valued behavior I can muster upnow. The reverse compass, pattern

smashing stuff now. Because theaddiction had become so destructive and time consuming and really somindlessly automatic, like Pavlov's dog salivating. So I'd say one ofthe most valuable things recovering has been to take on a couple ofcommitments now. Like volunteer. Fill up time in healthy, valuablechunks. Go to a meeting with the intent of being helpful, creating asafe compassionate space. A chance to enjoy your drive and be presentand maybe..who knows what else?Get my arms and legs moving doinganything new and valued, baby steps like keeping to a morning routinecan be huge. And then gently notice what it's like if you do or don'tkeep the commitment.Yes, I agree, do committed action - very good. But if you're like me, you whip yourself into "doing something good" no matter what. And that's just bullying yoursel. Do

it when you can, not when you feel you must. Very hard to know when, though. Do you see what I meant? Please correct me if you think that's needed. So emotional work, for sure. I guess it all compliments one another inthe end, you know? But I needed straight away to act in new, flexibleways to help break the automaticity, the destructive hypnotic cycle.Picking up the phone as you mention here to tell a friend I have an urgeto drink now would be excellent example of contrary behavior, and avalued thing to do. Nothing wrong there, but maybe pause a microsecond first and sense the urge. With love. Just a microsecond. Just a suggestion. I do that too, and I can stand it a microsecond sometimes, and sometimes I just get numb. Then go and call your friend and maybe report to him/her how that microsecond was. I'm guessing many don't even do that...especially ifthey have every intention to drink and they know that calling wouldbreak that cycle. But if you're willing to do that, that's fantastic--if for no other reason than to do something new! Just calling people tosay hi even. Reach out and see how it goes for a change (vs. stay inyour head, self-isolate). Surprising myself is something I'm learning,shaking things up. I never thought of the phone call

as defusion, but Isee what you mean...very cool example! A bit like free-style personalwriting can be for me. But yes, I do agree with you in general aboutjust how important the acceptance and mindfulness work is too. starts his new workbook "Wisdom to Know the Difference" sobeautifully with a discussion of the inclined heart and six breaths onpurpose. A very important place to begin. The posture of self-kindness,self-validation and just learning a bit more about stillness with thediscomfort seems so very critical...and it's a piece I do see missingwith a lot of folks. In AA they put the meditation and prayer step laterin the book and it really should be one of the first things! At leastthe idea about breathing, for goodness sake. Lot's of people (myselfincluded) actually forget to take a breath. Some people will even say:"I'm not on that step, so I'm not doing that yet".

:-)Thank you for this conversation, Terry! Please keep it coming. I learn a lot, as you can imagine. Warmly HenrikWarm regards,terryTo: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2012 2:33 AMSubject: Re: Keeping up with itLong post...Thank you Terry, it's interesting to hear about how it works in AA.

I'vebeen in emotional support groups a lot, and there seems to be a lot ofsimilarities. Even though alcohol is not my "thing", I can't see there'smuch difference between how you and I relate to things. You buy a bottleof wine and want to drive to the store for more - only you can't drive -damn! :)I'm alway active in my head, worry, plan - I can't bother to name all myaddictions - and want to do more - and if I only can I do more. It'sjust endless, endless.That's why I have to be endless back in taking care of my emotions. Ihave to be as persistent as the pull to do the addiction. As thosemarathon dancers way back - the woman has to keep following the man inthe dance. And in this case I'm the woman following the addiction withemotional processing.By following like this- I eventually get more wiggling space and can gofrom avoidance (addiction in the broadest

possible sense) to valuedliving.I have lately begun to see my thoughts as big signs that point toemotions that need to be expressed physically. I see that negativethoughts have that very important function. There are no unnecessaryspare parts in my mind. They all have their function. They have all cometo be because of my learning history and now point at the stuff whereI'm fused and avoiding.I didn't mean that you must try to figure out exactly what the triggerwas that made you want to go into addiction. Figuring out would most ofthe time get you even more mindy which in itself is avoiding.W hat I mean is: when you have an impulse to do an addiction - it meansthere's probably a lot of emotional work that needs to be done(defusion, acceptance). Committed action usually comes after that. Youcan't force the stuff - meaning you can't see behind corners

mostly.When you're in the middle of fusion and avoidance, you're occupied withthat unfortunately. So then you can't see what your next valued step is- except the ones so important: defusion and acceptance. Defusion couldbe to call or text someone and spill your beans (I want to do myaddiction right now - I need to talk to you), or be sad and cry, or bescared and shake, or do mindfulness or do whatever works for you...But - I don't want to be naive about this. For me, at least, the pull ofaddiction is there all the time (checking, worrying, reading, pushingmyself). So I need to be very patient with myself and at the same timenot lose the process of taking care of the underlying triggers that'scommanding my behavior. And I refer to triggers in a very loose way: Imostly have no idea of what the triggers are. That's OK. I will perhapsknow more about them when I've done more work. mostly

it's just steeringinto a dense fog with a vague idea of where I'm going. I'm steeringtowards my values (being in the present, having a calm and loving life).Addiction is the opposite of that (agitation, zoning out...).Makes sense??Henrik> > > > > Beautiful yes..I think maybe I'll respond to this in pieces...so many> goodies here.> > > > I'm not sure I agree that there is nothing random about addiction. I> suppose maybe it's how we're defining it. Maybe you could elaborate> more?> > > > Yes,I do see a lot of reasons why I drank but I have given up figuring> it all out as in

"trying to get to the bottom of it"...like I didn't> have this or that as a child...> > It is sometimes helpful to be aware of current triggers, but honestly> for me..almost anything can be a trigger! Life is a trigger for me!> > > > > Maybe I can explain it better:> > > > Sometimes I am just in the store and I see the bottle of wine and the> next thing I know I'm buying it and taking it home and pouring myself> a> glass. "I'll just have one glass" I tell myself. You know, take the> edge> off. Loosen up some.I'll be able to make that difficult phone call.> > > > Next thing I know a few hours have passed and the bottle is empty. Now> I'm unable to do much. My head is fuzzy. That warm, loose feeling is> wearing off and I'm antsy, agitated. I get hurt much more quickly.> Maybe>

even lash out and write or say things I later regret. I can't drive> (although I did in the past...to go get more, or get some food..."it's> just around the corner, it won't matter, I can manage it").> > > > Now, if I back up and learn..I can see that I was feeling "off" that> day. I was sad about something. Or angry. Or anxious. Lonely. Hungry.> All triggers.> > But It could be more simpler..I'm just tired, didn't sleep well...so> it> could be almost anything that triggered the thought "I want that wine> now. It will help me".> > > > > So that's why i say life is a trigger..or maybe better put, this mindy> mind is trigger! Fusion with that that thought that I must have it!> And> fusion with belief that I can manage just one glass and save rest for> later. (Some times I could, which made things even

more tricky in> terms> of believing I could always control the outcome)> > > > > That's where ACT is so helpful. If I can slow down enough to notice> and> accept the strong urge to numb out and if I defuse and then remember> my> values...and if I've practiced enough, it gets easier. Suddenly I have> lots of choices. I am a freer woman.> > > > > I can just walk out of the store, for example. I have legs, after all.> No-one is forcing me to buy that wine obviously.> > > > > But it takes an ability to pause and a desire to be present with the> thought and then willingness to respond in a new valued way.> > > > > Scary stuff if you're used to just numbing out.> > > > Some people in my meetings allow themselves to play the

tape/story out> fully of their past horrible episodes and this is enough to stop them.> > > > But yes, I hear you about the unmet needs that are there.. I do love> that ACT is humanistic that way..where the suffering is almost masking> an unmet need or thwarted value. That's why we do not shut the door> precipitously and we honor what our body, our hearts are telling us.> Many gems hiding underneath if we are willing to listen, hold lightly.> > > > Sometimes it's simple as a needing a hug. A hot shower. A good cry.> Sometimes an action needs to happen.> > > > > I do notice that the people who seem most content are notin their> heads> nearly as much as I am. I'm too isolated and have too much time on my> hands these days. Not good.> > Many healthy people it seems are engaged in meaningful

work, or have> families, community involvement, routines, friends...> > > > I'm thinking one of the reasons why the meeting is helpful is for an> hour I am not alone..and I become privy to some of the most exquisite> suffering... and this does take me out of my head. I hear myself in> other people's sharing and together, we are bearing witness to the> pain,> telling stories like the one I just wrote. Healing together, laughing,> crying.> > Okay, some people get preachy and that IS annoying. But hey, you takes> the bad with the good, ya know? And some meetings are much better for> me..they do vary quite a bit.> > > > You just hear things in those rooms you've never heard. Incredible> heroism, suffering.> > I have been more honest in there then all my years in therapy!> > It's very easy to

leave out huge chunks of your story for years.> > You just don't mention it..part of the denial.> > Like the fact that I used to drink just to have courage to make> calls..and I never realized I was actually drinking just to make a> friggn phone call until someone else in my meeting said that's what> she> used to do..another important reason to be around other recovering> people...we remember together just how insane our behavior was!> > > > > Oh, that was more than I thought I would write and still have more> thoughts about your lovely post here, Henrik.> > > > > Thanks for this very interesting conversation..more later.> > > > > warmly,> > terry> > > > > > To: "ACT_for_the_Public "> <ACT_for_the_Public >;> ACT_for_the_Public ; "Henrik Nordin,"> > Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 1:53 AM> Subject: Re: Keeping up with it> > > > And also...> > > > > I tend to think about repetitive thoughts and behavior - e.g. worrying> and addictive behavior - not as something to get rid of - but as> something that points to a need. I guess the need is different for> everybody, but most of the time for me it's the need to accept and> process

emotions.> > > > > I tried to link my post to the different processes in the hexaflex.> > > > > (Hexaflex: fusion - need for values and committed action or> acceptance)> > > > > If I worry - the worry is pointing to the need for me to process> underlying anxiety. (acceptance)> > If I do addictions (like all the time - duh!), it's pointing to the> underlying emotions that are present in my body in the present moment.> (present moment awareness + acceptance)> > > > > Really simple, not complicated. Thoughts have a function - they are> not> random or silly - they point to a need. Once the need is met (like> emotional processing - acceptance or changing things in my life -> committed action), the thoughts are no longer there in the present>

moment (defusion). Then different thoughts emerge, pointing to> different> needs. And on and on....> > > > > Same with addiction. There's not anything random in addiction.> Addiction> points to a need (value). I will never get rid of addictions by> suppressing addictive behavior alone (avoidance). That will only lead> me> to other addictions that are more accepted by the culture I'm in...> The> only way to get rid of addictions is to learn how to process emotions> (radical acceptance) or change my life (committed action), whichever> is> on top at the moment (present moment awareness).> > > > > I could elaborate more...> > > > > Hope this makes sense...> > > > > Henrik> > > > > > >

> > > > > > Nice Terry!> > I was sitting at the beach a few days ago. Relaxing but also> > worrying> > (another addiction) - and I suddenly could sense an alternative.> > Like> > another way of living. Taking it slow. Not pushing myself past a> > natural> > want for activity.> >> >> >> >> > I believe this is my valued life.> >> >> >> >> > On the other hand, when I fill myself with worrying, or checking> > things> > out (on e-mail, facebook, twitter.. you name it) or pushing myself> > like> > crazy, I'm filled from head to

toe and beyond with a kind of dull> > fullness. It's very familiar, scary... The funny thing is: how can> > it> > be> > so addictive when it's also so uncomfortable and scary?> >> >> >> >> > Maybe another way to put it:> >> > I heard someone say that your fear of (pain) is nothing compared to> > your> > fear of love.> >> >> >> >> > So I guess I'm terrified of this calm and relaxed life filled with> > love> > for myself and others.> >> >> >> >> > Can't we all encourage each other to go towards a calm, relaxed and> > loving life?> >> > Can't we also support each other when we get stuck in addiction,> > over> > activation, frantic pursuit, isolation? I mean -

not giving up on> > ourselves or on others when we or them get stuck in it and believe> > it's> > the only way and that a loving, relaxed life is just a silly day> > dream.> >> >> >> >> > I heard a nice metaphor once: that we have a big plastic fabric over> > our> > heads with electric lights that act as stars. We then believe they> > are> > the the real stars. It's not so, beyond the electric lamps and> > plastic> > fabric, there's the real sky with shining stars. Let's not fool> > ourselves or giving up. A life filled with addictions and frantic> > behavior is the same as staring at a plastic fabric with fake stars.> >> >> >> >> > Without support and community, we will never be able to see the real> > sky, I think. That's why

I enjoy this listserve.> >> >> >> >> > Does it make sense?> >> >> >> >> > Warmly,> >> > Henrik> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > On 13 aug 2012 19:47 "Theresa Linder" > > wrote:> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > BTW, when I say the avoidance works on some levels I mean "work"> > > very> > > loosely, in that they provide some key functions physically and> > > emotionally.> > >> > >> > >> > > For me, my drinking provided temporary relief, a warm

feeling.> > > That> > > unfortunately evaporated as writes as quickly as a> > >> > > drop of water on a hot summer sidewalk. And..as has said> > > (paraphrasing!)...costs... Huge..consequences like consistently> > > dragging> > > myself and others to the ground.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > In the long run, the avoidance behaviors mostly don't work or we> > > wouldn't be suffering so.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Here are other sneaky secondary gains of avoidance behavior (not> > > just> > > alcohol/drugs)..The behavior can include overeating, gambling,> > > hoarding,> > > shopping, excessive internet use, excessive/obsessive> > >

rumination/regret/rehashing with past,excessive> > > planning/rehearsing> > > for> > > future, excessive arguing/debating.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Some seductive, life-sucking goodies I've noted:> > >> > >> > >> > > Momentary feeling of being right, being in control.> > >> > > Less ambivalence in terms of what this moment, this day will bring> > > me..I'll force my will on it and decide, maybe even create> > > drama..anything rather than sit in that uncomfortable ambiguity.> > >> > > Believing as though I've truly accomplished something with all the> > > behavior--this has been especially tricky for me. Especially> > > learning> > > to> > > deal with the sadness in

realizing I wasted precious moments..."we> > > do> > > not regret the past, nor do we shut the door on it".> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > All of these go on my AA Step 1 (and then Step 4) list where I> > > admit> > > just how unmanageable my life is..a good place for my suffering> > > inventory in ACT terms.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Hope that makes sense and helps others.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > terry> > >> > > > > > To: "ACT_for_the_Public "> > > <ACT_for_the_Public >> > > Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 8:40 AM> > > Subject: Re: Keeping up with it> > >> > >> > >> > > It sounds like you may be just where you need to be.> > >> > >> > >> > > Some assorted thoughts:> > >> > >> > >> > > Helps me and my recovery friends to do a daily routine such a> > > simple> > > morning prayer to my higher power, asking for guidance.> > >> > >> > >> > > And a gratitude journal or just a daily list of things, even tiny> > > things.> > >> > >> >

>> > >> > > Every little bit of joy, newness, success let in. Try to let go of> > > grading yourself with a measuring stick which adds to> > > self-deprecation> > > and objectification "I'm below where I want to be".> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Avoidance behavior brings on many secondary gains (on some levels> > > they> > > really work) so it's very tricky stuff.> > >> > >> > >> > > And if you've been doing it for a while it will take time to let> > > them> > > go> > > in favor of behavior that is> > >> > > value oriented.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Put in place the reverse compass and do whatever small contrary>

> > valued> > > behavior you can every day. Any little thing that is new, a> > > stretch,> > > valued.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > The self-compassion practices in Neff's book are helping me.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > I don't know how you are using defusing, but it's not designed to> > > "make> > > yourself do things". And don't know what you mean by "I gotta be> > > mindful> > > and all that".> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Sounds like some toxic 'shoulding' going on!> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > I don't know how you are defining mindfulness.....hard to> > > read..but> > > almost sounds

like you're trying to beat yourself into a mindful> > > state.> > > If you do that, you'll just flip back and forth like a seal. It's> > > not> > > avoidance vs. mindfulness...itsstepping with your values more and> > > more> > > of the time.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Most of all give yourself the gift of time. Adopt that curious> > > beginners> > > mind every day. Be willing to drop the rope more and more.> > > Experiment> > > with lots of exercises from the books. Make up your own. If you> > > are> > > going to choose your avoidance behavior, at least do so with your> > > eyes> > > open and watch what happens. Not with judgment though!> > >> > >> > >> >

>> > > And know you aren't alone...I'm fortunate in that I do have AA> > > where> > > with it's imperfections, it's an amazing free supportive> > > compassionate> > > place where I get to go for an hour or two or three a week and> > > just> > > let> > > it all out. Even if I don't say a word, I am struck almost always> > > by> > > something in there, some space. Most amazing things happen in that> > > hour..I think it has something to do with the mutual sharing of> > > realizing our limitations and sharing our pain, our triumphs> > > together.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > So find support groups if you can.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > I'm having trouble with my

computer keyboard so sorry if this> > > sounds> > > a> > > bit choppy!> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > good luck and hold lightly,> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > terry> > >> > > > > > To: ACT_for_the_Public@yah oogroups.com> > > Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 9:56 PM> > > Subject: Keeping up with it> > >> > >> > >> > > Hey everybody,> > >> > > I've been doing (or trying to do) the ACT thing for about 6 months> > > now,> > > and I just want to

know if anybody else has the problem I'm> > > having?> > >> > > That is, well, I'm finding it really hard to keep going with it> > > consistently. I'll be able to observe and defuse from my anxiety> > > and> > > make myself do things I want to (i.e. study/diet) for about a> > > couple> > > of> > > days, but then its like I forget everything I've learned and go> > > back> > > into old habits of avoidance etc for a week. Then I remember "oh> > > shit,> > > that's right, I've gotta be mindful and all that" and get back on> > > top> > > for another couple of days before I "forget" all over again.> > >> > > My progress has been really sporadic and its really frustrating.> > > It's> > > also really frustrating that I

only seem to be able to be> > > mindful/whatever for a period of 2 - 3 days before I'm back to> > > experiential avoidance for a week or two.> > >> > > I told this to my therapist, but she just says "you gotta manage> > > yourself with a diary/practice defusion/practice> > > mindfulness/observe> > > yourself" etc, but my problem is I do this for a bit then I> > > 'forget'> > > to> > > do any of it for ages. I'm aware that this 'forgetting' is> > > probably> > > me> > > not catching myself out in my old habits and then getting caught> > > up> > > in> > > procrastinating/whatever till I become aware of that again, but> > > how> > > do> > > I> > > stop myself doing that? I know its observation and

defusion, but> > > how> > > do> > > I get better at that? Cause I feel like I'm really weak at it.> > > I know its probably a thing you get better at with practice.> > > Initially> > > when I started, with increasing practice I kept getting better,> > > but> > > I've> > > been at this for 6 months and its been ages since I got any> > > better.> > > I> > > feel like I've plateaued and its at a point that's well below> > > where> > > I> > > wanna be.> > >> > > How can I improve? How do you guys manage yourselves consistently?> > > How> > > do you keep up with/practice mindfulness etc?> > >> > > Does this question even make sense (I really had trouble with> > >

putting> > > my> > > problem into words)?> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Hi Henrik. I think I'm getting what you're saying. It feels like you're saying the energy behind the thoughts is what's interesting to you. And if we listen and follow that energy, it can lead us to important dignifying healing places, no? It is for me that way for sure. There is a lot of energy and so if we can get beyond the words and just into our bodies, powerful things happen. Sometimes that is helped by defusion. Leaves on a stream. Singing my fears, thoughts.The other night as I cooked I imagined each ingredient doing a little dance...(thanks to your creative meanderings about street signs saying "enjoy the view") This is huge for me because usually I dread cooking...like I'm going to screw it up somehow. What a sad way to approach things, huh? I later then remember my mother

was really hard on herself this way..she was an amazing cook but second guessed everything after she made it:How was it? Too overly cooked, huh? I should have left out those tomatoes maybe? Was it spicy enough? She would literally rip herself to shreds. I'm crying now as I am remembering this. It happened almost every time, like clockwork. I find I do this now....(not that I'm near the cook she was, but second guess everything!)She was such an amazing generous compassionate woman who had the kitchen and the home open for all friends, neighbors...strays... and yet "Never Good Enough" had her by the throat. I wish I knew then what I know now to help her with defusion and such. Anyway...more later..great stuff, thanks so much.Warm regards,terry To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 2:52 PM Subject: Re: Keeping up with it

Hi Henrik,I am having a very busy week and will to respond more fully but just also want to add that I'm very moved by the breadth of your responses in this thread. I'm a bit perplexed that others aren't chiming in..we're supposed to have a lot of folks here (thousands?) and yet no replies to your amazing offerings here that are all about ACT, suffering, etc. ??In any case,I had an amazing dinner yesterday, because Iused the Henrik method of "enjoy the view" for a a change! So instead of the usual, "Oh, I'm doing this wrong..it's too garlicky, too this, too that...I just enjoyed the view. I am thinking this is the spirit of ACT...to create our own metaphors and visuals...and to start witheveryday simple things that we do..like driving, cooking. And so I thank

you so for just making things lighter and more creative, Henirk...I am SO DAMN HEAVY about things, and it's really old!Hold lightly all (including this),your friend,terry To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 6:29 PM Subject: Re: Keeping up with it

I don't have too much time now but i just needed you to know I am laughing at the image of having all the road signs say"Look at the view". Thank you so much for that, Henrik...more later..am preparing dinner.. (not Child, for sure).Warm regards,Terry To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public >; ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 8:28 AM Subject: Re: Keeping up with it

Hi Terry, thank your for your long answer. I'm inserting my answers in your post. Warmly,Henrik Hi Henrik,Most of this makes sense, but I lose you some with the thoughts as bigsigns that point to emotions that need to be expressed physically. (Canyou maybe give an example, maybe something not too personal? If not,that's fine). It's just that for me, there's a lot of wasted old wornout useless thoughts occupying valuable land up there in that organbetween my ears. Many of them have worn out there welcome in terms offunction. Old and stinky and automatic. Prison sentences, you know?Where did they come from? Some

thoughts landed there randomly andarbitrarily, some learned. Important patterns to notice so that I canaccept and defuse and turn toward values, but not really anywhere asinteresting as what you seem to describe I'm afraid. Very booring, oldstuff. But maybe it's just a language thing and I'm misunderstandingwhat you're meaning.Yes, I agree. Some thoughts are really old and I guess they could be seen as useless in that they should not guide behavior. What I meant was: When I get them, I focus on my body. For me, personally - I mean my thoughts, those thoughts mostly indicate fear. The repetitiveness of the mind is a short time cure for fear. I'm bombarded with useless thoughts so that I don't have to experience life or my emotions, or interactions with other people or what's in front of me. I therefore change the label from "intruding thoughts" to "thoughts as signs that I need to focus on my life, my physicality apart from thoughts". Like if you where on a scenic route, driving your car and all the signs said: "look at the view". I don't know if this makes sense. Thoughts are like that, I think. Signs that point in a direction and that direction is not what the thoughts in themselves are saying. Thoughts are a lot of the time in their literal meaning historic mental junk. I'm not talking about the literal meaning of the thoughts. I'm talking about the phenomena of repetitive thought. My very personal guess is that that phenomena is a behavior my organism does when it's overwhelmed by emotions and memories in the present that it can't handle. Sometimes though, thoughts are meaningful and should indeed guide behavior ("don't go into that dark alley, you will probably

get mugged"). And a lot of the times they're junk. When they are I take them as a sign that I'm overwhelmed and that I need to go back to the present - in my case the present is unfortunately - often scary. I'm afraid a lot of the time. To be able to be in the present, I need to take care of, acknowledge, accept and express my fear. I have found that if I allow myself to shake in a way that isn't observed by others, I can keep being present and interact with people. I don't imply that anybody else should shake, but for me - it works. A lot of the people can just accept the emotion and that's it. I can't seem to do that. When I try, I just dissociate or numb out. If I keep my body moving ever so slightly while feeling fear - I can keep feeling the fear. Also, the part about doing committed action later..for me it's beenimportant doing whatever new kind of valued behavior I can muster upnow. The reverse compass, pattern

smashing stuff now. Because theaddiction had become so destructive and time consuming and really somindlessly automatic, like Pavlov's dog salivating. So I'd say one ofthe most valuable things recovering has been to take on a couple ofcommitments now. Like volunteer. Fill up time in healthy, valuablechunks. Go to a meeting with the intent of being helpful, creating asafe compassionate space. A chance to enjoy your drive and be presentand maybe..who knows what else?Get my arms and legs moving doinganything new and valued, baby steps like keeping to a morning routinecan be huge. And then gently notice what it's like if you do or don'tkeep the commitment.Yes, I agree, do committed action - very good. But if you're like me, you whip yourself into "doing something good" no matter what. And that's just bullying yoursel. Do

it when you can, not when you feel you must. Very hard to know when, though. Do you see what I meant? Please correct me if you think that's needed. So emotional work, for sure. I guess it all compliments one another inthe end, you know? But I needed straight away to act in new, flexibleways to help break the automaticity, the destructive hypnotic cycle.Picking up the phone as you mention here to tell a friend I have an urgeto drink now would be excellent example of contrary behavior, and avalued thing to do. Nothing wrong there, but maybe pause a microsecond first and sense the urge. With love. Just a microsecond. Just a suggestion. I do that too, and I can stand it a microsecond sometimes, and sometimes I just get numb. Then go and call your friend and maybe report to him/her how that microsecond was. I'm guessing many don't even do that...especially ifthey have every intention to drink and they know that calling wouldbreak that cycle. But if you're willing to do that, that's fantastic--if for no other reason than to do something new! Just calling people tosay hi even. Reach out and see how it goes for a change (vs. stay inyour head, self-isolate). Surprising myself is something I'm learning,shaking things up. I never thought of the phone call

as defusion, but Isee what you mean...very cool example! A bit like free-style personalwriting can be for me. But yes, I do agree with you in general aboutjust how important the acceptance and mindfulness work is too. starts his new workbook "Wisdom to Know the Difference" sobeautifully with a discussion of the inclined heart and six breaths onpurpose. A very important place to begin. The posture of self-kindness,self-validation and just learning a bit more about stillness with thediscomfort seems so very critical...and it's a piece I do see missingwith a lot of folks. In AA they put the meditation and prayer step laterin the book and it really should be one of the first things! At leastthe idea about breathing, for goodness sake. Lot's of people (myselfincluded) actually forget to take a breath. Some people will even say:"I'm not on that step, so I'm not doing that yet".

:-)Thank you for this conversation, Terry! Please keep it coming. I learn a lot, as you can imagine. Warmly HenrikWarm regards,terryTo: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2012 2:33 AMSubject: Re: Keeping up with itLong post...Thank you Terry, it's interesting to hear about how it works in AA.

I'vebeen in emotional support groups a lot, and there seems to be a lot ofsimilarities. Even though alcohol is not my "thing", I can't see there'smuch difference between how you and I relate to things. You buy a bottleof wine and want to drive to the store for more - only you can't drive -damn! :)I'm alway active in my head, worry, plan - I can't bother to name all myaddictions - and want to do more - and if I only can I do more. It'sjust endless, endless.That's why I have to be endless back in taking care of my emotions. Ihave to be as persistent as the pull to do the addiction. As thosemarathon dancers way back - the woman has to keep following the man inthe dance. And in this case I'm the woman following the addiction withemotional processing.By following like this- I eventually get more wiggling space and can gofrom avoidance (addiction in the broadest

possible sense) to valuedliving.I have lately begun to see my thoughts as big signs that point toemotions that need to be expressed physically. I see that negativethoughts have that very important function. There are no unnecessaryspare parts in my mind. They all have their function. They have all cometo be because of my learning history and now point at the stuff whereI'm fused and avoiding.I didn't mean that you must try to figure out exactly what the triggerwas that made you want to go into addiction. Figuring out would most ofthe time get you even more mindy which in itself is avoiding.W hat I mean is: when you have an impulse to do an addiction - it meansthere's probably a lot of emotional work that needs to be done(defusion, acceptance). Committed action usually comes after that. Youcan't force the stuff - meaning you can't see behind corners

mostly.When you're in the middle of fusion and avoidance, you're occupied withthat unfortunately. So then you can't see what your next valued step is- except the ones so important: defusion and acceptance. Defusion couldbe to call or text someone and spill your beans (I want to do myaddiction right now - I need to talk to you), or be sad and cry, or bescared and shake, or do mindfulness or do whatever works for you...But - I don't want to be naive about this. For me, at least, the pull ofaddiction is there all the time (checking, worrying, reading, pushingmyself). So I need to be very patient with myself and at the same timenot lose the process of taking care of the underlying triggers that'scommanding my behavior. And I refer to triggers in a very loose way: Imostly have no idea of what the triggers are. That's OK. I will perhapsknow more about them when I've done more work. mostly

it's just steeringinto a dense fog with a vague idea of where I'm going. I'm steeringtowards my values (being in the present, having a calm and loving life).Addiction is the opposite of that (agitation, zoning out...).Makes sense??Henrik> > > > > Beautiful yes..I think maybe I'll respond to this in pieces...so many> goodies here.> > > > I'm not sure I agree that there is nothing random about addiction. I> suppose maybe it's how we're defining it. Maybe you could elaborate> more?> > > > Yes,I do see a lot of reasons why I drank but I have given up figuring> it all out as in

"trying to get to the bottom of it"...like I didn't> have this or that as a child...> > It is sometimes helpful to be aware of current triggers, but honestly> for me..almost anything can be a trigger! Life is a trigger for me!> > > > > Maybe I can explain it better:> > > > Sometimes I am just in the store and I see the bottle of wine and the> next thing I know I'm buying it and taking it home and pouring myself> a> glass. "I'll just have one glass" I tell myself. You know, take the> edge> off. Loosen up some.I'll be able to make that difficult phone call.> > > > Next thing I know a few hours have passed and the bottle is empty. Now> I'm unable to do much. My head is fuzzy. That warm, loose feeling is> wearing off and I'm antsy, agitated. I get hurt much more quickly.> Maybe>

even lash out and write or say things I later regret. I can't drive> (although I did in the past...to go get more, or get some food..."it's> just around the corner, it won't matter, I can manage it").> > > > Now, if I back up and learn..I can see that I was feeling "off" that> day. I was sad about something. Or angry. Or anxious. Lonely. Hungry.> All triggers.> > But It could be more simpler..I'm just tired, didn't sleep well...so> it> could be almost anything that triggered the thought "I want that wine> now. It will help me".> > > > > So that's why i say life is a trigger..or maybe better put, this mindy> mind is trigger! Fusion with that that thought that I must have it!> And> fusion with belief that I can manage just one glass and save rest for> later. (Some times I could, which made things even

more tricky in> terms> of believing I could always control the outcome)> > > > > That's where ACT is so helpful. If I can slow down enough to notice> and> accept the strong urge to numb out and if I defuse and then remember> my> values...and if I've practiced enough, it gets easier. Suddenly I have> lots of choices. I am a freer woman.> > > > > I can just walk out of the store, for example. I have legs, after all.> No-one is forcing me to buy that wine obviously.> > > > > But it takes an ability to pause and a desire to be present with the> thought and then willingness to respond in a new valued way.> > > > > Scary stuff if you're used to just numbing out.> > > > Some people in my meetings allow themselves to play the

tape/story out> fully of their past horrible episodes and this is enough to stop them.> > > > But yes, I hear you about the unmet needs that are there.. I do love> that ACT is humanistic that way..where the suffering is almost masking> an unmet need or thwarted value. That's why we do not shut the door> precipitously and we honor what our body, our hearts are telling us.> Many gems hiding underneath if we are willing to listen, hold lightly.> > > > Sometimes it's simple as a needing a hug. A hot shower. A good cry.> Sometimes an action needs to happen.> > > > > I do notice that the people who seem most content are notin their> heads> nearly as much as I am. I'm too isolated and have too much time on my> hands these days. Not good.> > Many healthy people it seems are engaged in meaningful

work, or have> families, community involvement, routines, friends...> > > > I'm thinking one of the reasons why the meeting is helpful is for an> hour I am not alone..and I become privy to some of the most exquisite> suffering... and this does take me out of my head. I hear myself in> other people's sharing and together, we are bearing witness to the> pain,> telling stories like the one I just wrote. Healing together, laughing,> crying.> > Okay, some people get preachy and that IS annoying. But hey, you takes> the bad with the good, ya know? And some meetings are much better for> me..they do vary quite a bit.> > > > You just hear things in those rooms you've never heard. Incredible> heroism, suffering.> > I have been more honest in there then all my years in therapy!> > It's very easy to

leave out huge chunks of your story for years.> > You just don't mention it..part of the denial.> > Like the fact that I used to drink just to have courage to make> calls..and I never realized I was actually drinking just to make a> friggn phone call until someone else in my meeting said that's what> she> used to do..another important reason to be around other recovering> people...we remember together just how insane our behavior was!> > > > > Oh, that was more than I thought I would write and still have more> thoughts about your lovely post here, Henrik.> > > > > Thanks for this very interesting conversation..more later.> > > > > warmly,> > terry> > > > > > To: "ACT_for_the_Public "> <ACT_for_the_Public >;> ACT_for_the_Public ; "Henrik Nordin,"> > Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 1:53 AM> Subject: Re: Keeping up with it> > > > And also...> > > > > I tend to think about repetitive thoughts and behavior - e.g. worrying> and addictive behavior - not as something to get rid of - but as> something that points to a need. I guess the need is different for> everybody, but most of the time for me it's the need to accept and> process

emotions.> > > > > I tried to link my post to the different processes in the hexaflex.> > > > > (Hexaflex: fusion - need for values and committed action or> acceptance)> > > > > If I worry - the worry is pointing to the need for me to process> underlying anxiety. (acceptance)> > If I do addictions (like all the time - duh!), it's pointing to the> underlying emotions that are present in my body in the present moment.> (present moment awareness + acceptance)> > > > > Really simple, not complicated. Thoughts have a function - they are> not> random or silly - they point to a need. Once the need is met (like> emotional processing - acceptance or changing things in my life -> committed action), the thoughts are no longer there in the present>

moment (defusion). Then different thoughts emerge, pointing to> different> needs. And on and on....> > > > > Same with addiction. There's not anything random in addiction.> Addiction> points to a need (value). I will never get rid of addictions by> suppressing addictive behavior alone (avoidance). That will only lead> me> to other addictions that are more accepted by the culture I'm in...> The> only way to get rid of addictions is to learn how to process emotions> (radical acceptance) or change my life (committed action), whichever> is> on top at the moment (present moment awareness).> > > > > I could elaborate more...> > > > > Hope this makes sense...> > > > > Henrik> > > > > > >

> > > > > > Nice Terry!> > I was sitting at the beach a few days ago. Relaxing but also> > worrying> > (another addiction) - and I suddenly could sense an alternative.> > Like> > another way of living. Taking it slow. Not pushing myself past a> > natural> > want for activity.> >> >> >> >> > I believe this is my valued life.> >> >> >> >> > On the other hand, when I fill myself with worrying, or checking> > things> > out (on e-mail, facebook, twitter.. you name it) or pushing myself> > like> > crazy, I'm filled from head to

toe and beyond with a kind of dull> > fullness. It's very familiar, scary... The funny thing is: how can> > it> > be> > so addictive when it's also so uncomfortable and scary?> >> >> >> >> > Maybe another way to put it:> >> > I heard someone say that your fear of (pain) is nothing compared to> > your> > fear of love.> >> >> >> >> > So I guess I'm terrified of this calm and relaxed life filled with> > love> > for myself and others.> >> >> >> >> > Can't we all encourage each other to go towards a calm, relaxed and> > loving life?> >> > Can't we also support each other when we get stuck in addiction,> > over> > activation, frantic pursuit, isolation? I mean -

not giving up on> > ourselves or on others when we or them get stuck in it and believe> > it's> > the only way and that a loving, relaxed life is just a silly day> > dream.> >> >> >> >> > I heard a nice metaphor once: that we have a big plastic fabric over> > our> > heads with electric lights that act as stars. We then believe they> > are> > the the real stars. It's not so, beyond the electric lamps and> > plastic> > fabric, there's the real sky with shining stars. Let's not fool> > ourselves or giving up. A life filled with addictions and frantic> > behavior is the same as staring at a plastic fabric with fake stars.> >> >> >> >> > Without support and community, we will never be able to see the real> > sky, I think. That's why

I enjoy this listserve.> >> >> >> >> > Does it make sense?> >> >> >> >> > Warmly,> >> > Henrik> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > On 13 aug 2012 19:47 "Theresa Linder" > > wrote:> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > BTW, when I say the avoidance works on some levels I mean "work"> > > very> > > loosely, in that they provide some key functions physically and> > > emotionally.> > >> > >> > >> > > For me, my drinking provided temporary relief, a warm

feeling.> > > That> > > unfortunately evaporated as writes as quickly as a> > >> > > drop of water on a hot summer sidewalk. And..as has said> > > (paraphrasing!)...costs... Huge..consequences like consistently> > > dragging> > > myself and others to the ground.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > In the long run, the avoidance behaviors mostly don't work or we> > > wouldn't be suffering so.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Here are other sneaky secondary gains of avoidance behavior (not> > > just> > > alcohol/drugs)..The behavior can include overeating, gambling,> > > hoarding,> > > shopping, excessive internet use, excessive/obsessive> > >

rumination/regret/rehashing with past,excessive> > > planning/rehearsing> > > for> > > future, excessive arguing/debating.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Some seductive, life-sucking goodies I've noted:> > >> > >> > >> > > Momentary feeling of being right, being in control.> > >> > > Less ambivalence in terms of what this moment, this day will bring> > > me..I'll force my will on it and decide, maybe even create> > > drama..anything rather than sit in that uncomfortable ambiguity.> > >> > > Believing as though I've truly accomplished something with all the> > > behavior--this has been especially tricky for me. Especially> > > learning> > > to> > > deal with the sadness in

realizing I wasted precious moments..."we> > > do> > > not regret the past, nor do we shut the door on it".> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > All of these go on my AA Step 1 (and then Step 4) list where I> > > admit> > > just how unmanageable my life is..a good place for my suffering> > > inventory in ACT terms.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Hope that makes sense and helps others.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > terry> > >> > > > > > To: "ACT_for_the_Public "> > > <ACT_for_the_Public >> > > Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 8:40 AM> > > Subject: Re: Keeping up with it> > >> > >> > >> > > It sounds like you may be just where you need to be.> > >> > >> > >> > > Some assorted thoughts:> > >> > >> > >> > > Helps me and my recovery friends to do a daily routine such a> > > simple> > > morning prayer to my higher power, asking for guidance.> > >> > >> > >> > > And a gratitude journal or just a daily list of things, even tiny> > > things.> > >> > >> >

>> > >> > > Every little bit of joy, newness, success let in. Try to let go of> > > grading yourself with a measuring stick which adds to> > > self-deprecation> > > and objectification "I'm below where I want to be".> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Avoidance behavior brings on many secondary gains (on some levels> > > they> > > really work) so it's very tricky stuff.> > >> > >> > >> > > And if you've been doing it for a while it will take time to let> > > them> > > go> > > in favor of behavior that is> > >> > > value oriented.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Put in place the reverse compass and do whatever small contrary>

> > valued> > > behavior you can every day. Any little thing that is new, a> > > stretch,> > > valued.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > The self-compassion practices in Neff's book are helping me.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > I don't know how you are using defusing, but it's not designed to> > > "make> > > yourself do things". And don't know what you mean by "I gotta be> > > mindful> > > and all that".> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Sounds like some toxic 'shoulding' going on!> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > I don't know how you are defining mindfulness.....hard to> > > read..but> > > almost sounds

like you're trying to beat yourself into a mindful> > > state.> > > If you do that, you'll just flip back and forth like a seal. It's> > > not> > > avoidance vs. mindfulness...itsstepping with your values more and> > > more> > > of the time.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Most of all give yourself the gift of time. Adopt that curious> > > beginners> > > mind every day. Be willing to drop the rope more and more.> > > Experiment> > > with lots of exercises from the books. Make up your own. If you> > > are> > > going to choose your avoidance behavior, at least do so with your> > > eyes> > > open and watch what happens. Not with judgment though!> > >> > >> > >> >

>> > > And know you aren't alone...I'm fortunate in that I do have AA> > > where> > > with it's imperfections, it's an amazing free supportive> > > compassionate> > > place where I get to go for an hour or two or three a week and> > > just> > > let> > > it all out. Even if I don't say a word, I am struck almost always> > > by> > > something in there, some space. Most amazing things happen in that> > > hour..I think it has something to do with the mutual sharing of> > > realizing our limitations and sharing our pain, our triumphs> > > together.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > So find support groups if you can.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > I'm having trouble with my

computer keyboard so sorry if this> > > sounds> > > a> > > bit choppy!> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > good luck and hold lightly,> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > terry> > >> > > > > > To: ACT_for_the_Public@yah oogroups.com> > > Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 9:56 PM> > > Subject: Keeping up with it> > >> > >> > >> > > Hey everybody,> > >> > > I've been doing (or trying to do) the ACT thing for about 6 months> > > now,> > > and I just want to

know if anybody else has the problem I'm> > > having?> > >> > > That is, well, I'm finding it really hard to keep going with it> > > consistently. I'll be able to observe and defuse from my anxiety> > > and> > > make myself do things I want to (i.e. study/diet) for about a> > > couple> > > of> > > days, but then its like I forget everything I've learned and go> > > back> > > into old habits of avoidance etc for a week. Then I remember "oh> > > shit,> > > that's right, I've gotta be mindful and all that" and get back on> > > top> > > for another couple of days before I "forget" all over again.> > >> > > My progress has been really sporadic and its really frustrating.> > > It's> > > also really frustrating that I

only seem to be able to be> > > mindful/whatever for a period of 2 - 3 days before I'm back to> > > experiential avoidance for a week or two.> > >> > > I told this to my therapist, but she just says "you gotta manage> > > yourself with a diary/practice defusion/practice> > > mindfulness/observe> > > yourself" etc, but my problem is I do this for a bit then I> > > 'forget'> > > to> > > do any of it for ages. I'm aware that this 'forgetting' is> > > probably> > > me> > > not catching myself out in my old habits and then getting caught> > > up> > > in> > > procrastinating/whatever till I become aware of that again, but> > > how> > > do> > > I> > > stop myself doing that? I know its observation and

defusion, but> > > how> > > do> > > I get better at that? Cause I feel like I'm really weak at it.> > > I know its probably a thing you get better at with practice.> > > Initially> > > when I started, with increasing practice I kept getting better,> > > but> > > I've> > > been at this for 6 months and its been ages since I got any> > > better.> > > I> > > feel like I've plateaued and its at a point that's well below> > > where> > > I> > > wanna be.> > >> > > How can I improve? How do you guys manage yourselves consistently?> > > How> > > do you keep up with/practice mindfulness etc?> > >> > > Does this question even make sense (I really had trouble with> > >

putting> > > my> > > problem into words)?> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Terry,

That's a great way to put it and you express it with more clarity: "The energy behind the thoughts".

Instead of getting entagled with thoughts and their meaning - I can contact the energy - or emotion - or value behind the words/thoughts. That's mostly rocket fuel - I truly get energized by that - even if it's fear and anxiety or sadness. Whereas fighting thoughts with more thoughts are just draining me.

I can see the result in the mirror. When I've been able to feel my face looks surprisingly fresh. When I'm struggling with thoughts - trying to figure things out - my face looks older in many ways.

I need to reframe and rephrase things as I go along so that I can keep the process of acceptance/expression and commitment to values going. So the energy behind the thoughts will do it.

It's funny how your parents can be present in our lives like this. It seems like you could keep the good parts from your mother - the skill or interest in cooking along with the generosity to invite people - and could create a distance to the never enough part that she also had.

Warm greetings,

Henrik

Hi Henrik. I think I'm getting what you're saying. It feels like you're saying the energy behind the thoughts is what's interesting to you. And if we listen and follow that energy, it can lead us to important dignifying healing places, no? It is for me that way for sure. There is a lot of energy and so if we can get beyond the words and just into our bodies, powerful things happen. Sometimes that is helped by defusion. Leaves on a stream. Singing my fears, thoughts.The other night as I cooked I imagined each ingredient doing a little dance...(thanks to your creative meanderings about street signs saying "enjoy the view") This is huge for me because usually I dread cooking...like I'm going to screw it up somehow. What a sad way to approach things, huh? I later then remember my mother was really hard on herself this way..she was an amazing cook but second guessed everything after she made it:How was it? Too overly cooked, huh? I should have left out those tomatoes maybe? Was it spicy enough? She would literally rip herself to shreds. I'm crying now as I am remembering this. It happened almost every time, like clockwork. I find I do this now....(not that I'm near the cook she was, but second guess everything!)She was such an amazing generous compassionate woman who had the kitchen and the home open for all friends, neighbors...strays... and yet "Never Good Enough" had her by the throat.

I wish I knew then what I know now to help her with defusion and such.

Anyway...more later..great stuff, thanks so much.

Warm regards,

terry

To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 2:52 PMSubject: Re: Keeping up with it

Hi Henrik,I am having a very busy week and will to respond more fully but just also want to add that I'm very moved by the breadth of your responses in this thread. I'm a bit perplexed that others aren't chiming in..we're supposed to have a lot of folks here (thousands?) and yet no replies to your amazing offerings here that are all about ACT, suffering, etc. ??In any case,I had an amazing dinner yesterday, because Iused the Henrik method of "enjoy the view" for a a change! So instead of the usual, "Oh, I'm doing this wrong..it's too garlicky, too this, too that...I just enjoyed the view. I am thinking this is the spirit of ACT...to create our own metaphors and visuals...and to start witheveryday simple things that we do..like driving, cooking. And so I thank you so for just making things lighter and more creative, Henirk...I am SO DAMN HEAVY about things, and it's really old!Hold lightly all (including this),your friend,terry

To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 6:29 PMSubject: Re: Keeping up with it

I don't have too much time now but i just needed you to know I am laughing at the image of having all the road signs say

"Look at the view". Thank you so much for that, Henrik...more later..am preparing dinner.. (not Child, for sure).

Warm regards,

Terry

To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public >; ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 8:28 AMSubject: Re: Keeping up with it

Hi Terry,

thank your for your long answer. I'm inserting my answers in your post.

Warmly,

Henrik

Hi Henrik,Most of this makes sense, but I lose you some with the thoughts as bigsigns that point to emotions that need to be expressed physically. (Canyou maybe give an example, maybe something not too personal? If not,that's fine). It's just that for me, there's a lot of wasted old wornout useless thoughts occupying valuable land up there in that organbetween my ears. Many of them have worn out there welcome in terms offunction. Old and stinky and automatic. Prison sentences, you know?Where did they come from? Some thoughts landed there randomly andarbitrarily, some learned. Important patterns to notice so that I canaccept and defuse and turn toward values, but not really anywhere asinteresting as what you seem to describe I'm afraid. Very booring, oldstuff. But maybe it's just a language thing and I'm misunderstandingwhat you're meaning.

Yes, I agree. Some thoughts are really old and I guess they could be seen as useless in that they should not guide behavior. What I meant was: When I get them, I focus on my body. For me, personally - I mean my thoughts, those thoughts mostly indicate fear. The repetitiveness of the mind is a short time cure for fear. I'm bombarded with useless thoughts so that I don't have to experience life or my emotions, or interactions with other people or what's in front of me.

I therefore change the label from "intruding thoughts" to "thoughts as signs that I need to focus on my life, my physicality apart from thoughts". Like if you where on a scenic route, driving your car and all the signs said: "look at the view". I don't know if this makes sense. Thoughts are like that, I think. Signs that point in a direction and that direction is not what the thoughts in themselves are saying. Thoughts are a lot of the time in their literal meaning historic mental junk. I'm not talking about the literal meaning of the thoughts. I'm talking about the phenomena of repetitive thought. My very personal guess is that that phenomena is a behavior my organism does when it's overwhelmed by emotions and memories in the present that it can't handle. Sometimes though, thoughts are meaningful and should indeed guide behavior ("don't go into that dark alley, you will probably get mugged"). And a lot of the times they're junk. When they are I take them as a sign that I'm overwhelmed and that I need to go back to the present - in my case the present is unfortunately - often scary. I'm afraid a lot of the time. To be able to be in the present, I need to take care of, acknowledge, accept and express my fear. I have found that if I allow myself to shake in a way that isn't observed by others, I can keep being present and interact with people. I don't imply that anybody else should shake, but for me - it works. A lot of the people can just accept the emotion and that's it. I can't seem to do that. When I try, I just dissociate or numb out. If I keep my body moving ever so slightly while feeling fear - I can keep feeling the fear. Also, the part about doing committed action later..for me it's beenimportant doing whatever new kind of valued behavior I can muster upnow. The reverse compass, pattern smashing stuff now. Because theaddiction had become so destructive and time consuming and really somindlessly automatic, like Pavlov's dog salivating. So I'd say one ofthe most valuable things recovering has been to take on a couple ofcommitments now. Like volunteer. Fill up time in healthy, valuablechunks. Go to a meeting with the intent of being helpful, creating asafe compassionate space. A chance to enjoy your drive and be presentand maybe..who knows what else?Get my arms and legs moving doinganything new and valued, baby steps like keeping to a morning routinecan be huge. And then gently notice what it's like if you do or don'tkeep the commitment.

Yes, I agree, do committed action - very good. But if you're like me, you whip yourself into "doing something good" no matter what. And that's just bullying yoursel. Do it when you can, not when you feel you must. Very hard to know when, though. Do you see what I meant? Please correct me if you think that's needed.

So emotional work, for sure. I guess it all compliments one another inthe end, you know? But I needed straight away to act in new, flexibleways to help break the automaticity, the destructive hypnotic cycle.Picking up the phone as you mention here to tell a friend I have an urgeto drink now would be excellent example of contrary behavior, and avalued thing to do.

Nothing wrong there, but maybe pause a microsecond first and sense the urge. With love. Just a microsecond. Just a suggestion.

I do that too, and I can stand it a microsecond sometimes, and sometimes I just get numb.

Then go and call your friend and maybe report to him/her how that microsecond was.

I'm guessing many don't even do that...especially ifthey have every intention to drink and they know that calling wouldbreak that cycle. But if you're willing to do that, that's fantastic--if for no other reason than to do something new! Just calling people tosay hi even. Reach out and see how it goes for a change (vs. stay inyour head, self-isolate). Surprising myself is something I'm learning,shaking things up. I never thought of the phone call as defusion, but Isee what you mean...very cool example! A bit like free-style personalwriting can be for me. But yes, I do agree with you in general aboutjust how important the acceptance and mindfulness work is too. starts his new workbook "Wisdom to Know the Difference" sobeautifully with a discussion of the inclined heart and six breaths onpurpose. A very important place to begin. The posture of self-kindness,self-validation and just learning a bit more about stillness with thediscomfort seems so very critical...and it's a piece I do see missingwith a lot of folks. In AA they put the meditation and prayer step laterin the book and it really should be one of the first things! At leastthe idea about breathing, for goodness sake. Lot's of people (myselfincluded) actually forget to take a breath. Some people will even say:"I'm not on that step, so I'm not doing that yet". :-)

Thank you for this conversation, Terry! Please keep it coming. I learn a lot, as you can imagine.

Warmly HenrikWarm regards,terryTo: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2012 2:33 AMSubject: Re: Keeping up with itLong post...Thank you Terry, it's interesting to hear about how it works in AA. I'vebeen in emotional support groups a lot, and there seems to be a lot ofsimilarities. Even though alcohol is not my "thing", I can't see there'smuch difference between how you and I relate to things. You buy a bottleof wine and want to drive to the store for more - only you can't drive -damn! :)I'm alway active in my head, worry, plan - I can't bother to name all myaddictions - and want to do more - and if I only can I do more. It'sjust endless, endless.That's why I have to be endless back in taking care of my emotions. Ihave to be as persistent as the pull to do the addiction. As thosemarathon dancers way back - the woman has to keep following the man inthe dance. And in this case I'm the woman following the addiction withemotional processing.By following like this- I eventually get more wiggling space and can gofrom avoidance (addiction in the broadest possible sense) to valuedliving.I have lately begun to see my thoughts as big signs that point toemotions that need to be expressed physically. I see that negativethoughts have that very important function. There are no unnecessaryspare parts in my mind. They all have their function. They have all cometo be because of my learning history and now point at the stuff whereI'm fused and avoiding.I didn't mean that you must try to figure out exactly what the triggerwas that made you want to go into addiction. Figuring out would most ofthe time get you even more mindy which in itself is avoiding.W hat I mean is: when you have an impulse to do an addiction - it meansthere's probably a lot of emotional work that needs to be done(defusion, acceptance). Committed action usually comes after that. Youcan't force the stuff - meaning you can't see behind corners mostly.When you're in the middle of fusion and avoidance, you're occupied withthat unfortunately. So then you can't see what your next valued step is- except the ones so important: defusion and acceptance. Defusion couldbe to call or text someone and spill your beans (I want to do myaddiction right now - I need to talk to you), or be sad and cry, or bescared and shake, or do mindfulness or do whatever works for you...But - I don't want to be naive about this. For me, at least, the pull ofaddiction is there all the time (checking, worrying, reading, pushingmyself). So I need to be very patient with myself and at the same timenot lose the process of taking care of the underlying triggers that'scommanding my behavior. And I refer to triggers in a very loose way: Imostly have no idea of what the triggers are. That's OK. I will perhapsknow more about them when I've done more work. mostly it's just steeringinto a dense fog with a vague idea of where I'm going. I'm steeringtowards my values (being in the present, having a calm and loving life).Addiction is the opposite of that (agitation, zoning out...).Makes sense??Henrik> > > > > Beautiful yes..I think maybe I'll respond to this in pieces...so many> goodies here.> > > > I'm not sure I agree that there is nothing random about addiction. I> suppose maybe it's how we're defining it. Maybe you could elaborate> more?> > > > Yes,I do see a lot of reasons why I drank but I have given up figuring> it all out as in "trying to get to the bottom of it"...like I didn't> have this or that as a child...> > It is sometimes helpful to be aware of current triggers, but honestly> for me..almost anything can be a trigger! Life is a trigger for me!> > > > > Maybe I can explain it better:> > > > Sometimes I am just in the store and I see the bottle of wine and the> next thing I know I'm buying it and taking it home and pouring myself> a> glass. "I'll just have one glass" I tell myself. You know, take the> edge> off. Loosen up some.I'll be able to make that difficult phone call.> > > > Next thing I know a few hours have passed and the bottle is empty. Now> I'm unable to do much. My head is fuzzy. That warm, loose feeling is> wearing off and I'm antsy, agitated. I get hurt much more quickly.> Maybe> even lash out and write or say things I later regret. I can't drive> (although I did in the past...to go get more, or get some food..."it's> just around the corner, it won't matter, I can manage it").> > > > Now, if I back up and learn..I can see that I was feeling "off" that> day. I was sad about something. Or angry. Or anxious. Lonely. Hungry.> All triggers.> > But It could be more simpler..I'm just tired, didn't sleep well...so> it> could be almost anything that triggered the thought "I want that wine> now. It will help me".> > > > > So that's why i say life is a trigger..or maybe better put, this mindy> mind is trigger! Fusion with that that thought that I must have it!> And> fusion with belief that I can manage just one glass and save rest for> later. (Some times I could, which made things even more tricky in> terms> of believing I could always control the outcome)> > > > > That's where ACT is so helpful. If I can slow down enough to notice> and> accept the strong urge to numb out and if I defuse and then remember> my> values...and if I've practiced enough, it gets easier. Suddenly I have> lots of choices. I am a freer woman.> > > > > I can just walk out of the store, for example. I have legs, after all.> No-one is forcing me to buy that wine obviously.> > > > > But it takes an ability to pause and a desire to be present with the> thought and then willingness to respond in a new valued way.> > > > > Scary stuff if you're used to just numbing out.> > > > Some people in my meetings allow themselves to play the tape/story out> fully of their past horrible episodes and this is enough to stop them.> > > > But yes, I hear you about the unmet needs that are there.. I do love> that ACT is humanistic that way..where the suffering is almost masking> an unmet need or thwarted value. That's why we do not shut the door> precipitously and we honor what our body, our hearts are telling us.> Many gems hiding underneath if we are willing to listen, hold lightly.> > > > Sometimes it's simple as a needing a hug. A hot shower. A good cry.> Sometimes an action needs to happen.> > > > > I do notice that the people who seem most content are notin their> heads> nearly as much as I am. I'm too isolated and have too much time on my> hands these days. Not good.> > Many healthy people it seems are engaged in meaningful work, or have> families, community involvement, routines, friends...> > > > I'm thinking one of the reasons why the meeting is helpful is for an> hour I am not alone..and I become privy to some of the most exquisite> suffering... and this does take me out of my head. I hear myself in> other people's sharing and together, we are bearing witness to the> pain,> telling stories like the one I just wrote. Healing together, laughing,> crying.> > Okay, some people get preachy and that IS annoying. But hey, you takes> the bad with the good, ya know? And some meetings are much better for> me..they do vary quite a bit.> > > > You just hear things in those rooms you've never heard. Incredible> heroism, suffering.> > I have been more honest in there then all my years in therapy!> > It's very easy to leave out huge chunks of your story for years.> > You just don't mention it..part of the denial.> > Like the fact that I used to drink just to have courage to make> calls..and I never realized I was actually drinking just to make a> friggn phone call until someone else in my meeting said that's what> she> used to do..another important reason to be around other recovering> people...we remember together just how insane our behavior was!> > > > > Oh, that was more than I thought I would write and still have more> thoughts about your lovely post here, Henrik.> > > > > Thanks for this very interesting conversation..more later.> > > > > warmly,> > terry> > > > > > To: "ACT_for_the_Public "> <ACT_for_the_Public >;> ACT_for_the_Public ; "Henrik Nordin,"> > Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 1:53 AM> Subject: Re: Keeping up with it> > > > And also...> > > > > I tend to think about repetitive thoughts and behavior - e.g. worrying> and addictive behavior - not as something to get rid of - but as> something that points to a need. I guess the need is different for> everybody, but most of the time for me it's the need to accept and> process emotions.> > > > > I tried to link my post to the different processes in the hexaflex.> > > > > (Hexaflex: fusion - need for values and committed action or> acceptance)> > > > > If I worry - the worry is pointing to the need for me to process> underlying anxiety. (acceptance)> > If I do addictions (like all the time - duh!), it's pointing to the> underlying emotions that are present in my body in the present moment.> (present moment awareness + acceptance)> > > > > Really simple, not complicated. Thoughts have a function - they are> not> random or silly - they point to a need. Once the need is met (like> emotional processing - acceptance or changing things in my life -> committed action), the thoughts are no longer there in the present> moment (defusion). Then different thoughts emerge, pointing to> different> needs. And on and on....> > > > > Same with addiction. There's not anything random in addiction.> Addiction> points to a need (value). I will never get rid of addictions by> suppressing addictive behavior alone (avoidance). That will only lead> me> to other addictions that are more accepted by the culture I'm in...> The> only way to get rid of addictions is to learn how to process emotions> (radical acceptance) or change my life (committed action), whichever> is> on top at the moment (present moment awareness).> > > > > I could elaborate more...> > > > > Hope this makes sense...> > > > > Henrik> > > > > > > > > > > > > Nice Terry!> > I was sitting at the beach a few days ago. Relaxing but also> > worrying> > (another addiction) - and I suddenly could sense an alternative.> > Like> > another way of living. Taking it slow. Not pushing myself past a> > natural> > want for activity.> >> >> >> >> > I believe this is my valued life.> >> >> >> >> > On the other hand, when I fill myself with worrying, or checking> > things> > out (on e-mail, facebook, twitter.. you name it) or pushing myself> > like> > crazy, I'm filled from head to toe and beyond with a kind of dull> > fullness. It's very familiar, scary... The funny thing is: how can> > it> > be> > so addictive when it's also so uncomfortable and scary?> >> >> >> >> > Maybe another way to put it:> >> > I heard someone say that your fear of (pain) is nothing compared to> > your> > fear of love.> >> >> >> >> > So I guess I'm terrified of this calm and relaxed life filled with> > love> > for myself and others.> >> >> >> >> > Can't we all encourage each other to go towards a calm, relaxed and> > loving life?> >> > Can't we also support each other when we get stuck in addiction,> > over> > activation, frantic pursuit, isolation? I mean - not giving up on> > ourselves or on others when we or them get stuck in it and believe> > it's> > the only way and that a loving, relaxed life is just a silly day> > dream.> >> >> >> >> > I heard a nice metaphor once: that we have a big plastic fabric over> > our> > heads with electric lights that act as stars. We then believe they> > are> > the the real stars. It's not so, beyond the electric lamps and> > plastic> > fabric, there's the real sky with shining stars. Let's not fool> > ourselves or giving up. A life filled with addictions and frantic> > behavior is the same as staring at a plastic fabric with fake stars.> >> >> >> >> > Without support and community, we will never be able to see the real> > sky, I think. That's why I enjoy this listserve.> >> >> >> >> > Does it make sense?> >> >> >> >> > Warmly,> >> > Henrik> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > On 13 aug 2012 19:47 "Theresa Linder" > > wrote:> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > BTW, when I say the avoidance works on some levels I mean "work"> > > very> > > loosely, in that they provide some key functions physically and> > > emotionally.> > >> > >> > >> > > For me, my drinking provided temporary relief, a warm feeling.> > > That> > > unfortunately evaporated as writes as quickly as a> > >> > > drop of water on a hot summer sidewalk. And..as has said> > > (paraphrasing!)...costs... Huge..consequences like consistently> > > dragging> > > myself and others to the ground.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > In the long run, the avoidance behaviors mostly don't work or we> > > wouldn't be suffering so.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Here are other sneaky secondary gains of avoidance behavior (not> > > just> > > alcohol/drugs)..The behavior can include overeating, gambling,> > > hoarding,> > > shopping, excessive internet use, excessive/obsessive> > > rumination/regret/rehashing with past,excessive> > > planning/rehearsing> > > for> > > future, excessive arguing/debating.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Some seductive, life-sucking goodies I've noted:> > >> > >> > >> > > Momentary feeling of being right, being in control.> > >> > > Less ambivalence in terms of what this moment, this day will bring> > > me..I'll force my will on it and decide, maybe even create> > > drama..anything rather than sit in that uncomfortable ambiguity.> > >> > > Believing as though I've truly accomplished something with all the> > > behavior--this has been especially tricky for me. Especially> > > learning> > > to> > > deal with the sadness in realizing I wasted precious moments..."we> > > do> > > not regret the past, nor do we shut the door on it".> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > All of these go on my AA Step 1 (and then Step 4) list where I> > > admit> > > just how unmanageable my life is..a good place for my suffering> > > inventory in ACT terms.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Hope that makes sense and helps others.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > terry> > >> > > > > > To: "ACT_for_the_Public "> > > <ACT_for_the_Public >> > > Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 8:40 AM> > > Subject: Re: Keeping up with it> > >> > >> > >> > > It sounds like you may be just where you need to be.> > >> > >> > >> > > Some assorted thoughts:> > >> > >> > >> > > Helps me and my recovery friends to do a daily routine such a> > > simple> > > morning prayer to my higher power, asking for guidance.> > >> > >> > >> > > And a gratitude journal or just a daily list of things, even tiny> > > things.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Every little bit of joy, newness, success let in. Try to let go of> > > grading yourself with a measuring stick which adds to> > > self-deprecation> > > and objectification "I'm below where I want to be".> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Avoidance behavior brings on many secondary gains (on some levels> > > they> > > really work) so it's very tricky stuff.> > >> > >> > >> > > And if you've been doing it for a while it will take time to let> > > them> > > go> > > in favor of behavior that is> > >> > > value oriented.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Put in place the reverse compass and do whatever small contrary> > > valued> > > behavior you can every day. Any little thing that is new, a> > > stretch,> > > valued.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > The self-compassion practices in Neff's book are helping me.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > I don't know how you are using defusing, but it's not designed to> > > "make> > > yourself do things". And don't know what you mean by "I gotta be> > > mindful> > > and all that".> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Sounds like some toxic 'shoulding' going on!> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > I don't know how you are defining mindfulness.....hard to> > > read..but> > > almost sounds like you're trying to beat yourself into a mindful> > > state.> > > If you do that, you'll just flip back and forth like a seal. It's> > > not> > > avoidance vs. mindfulness...itsstepping with your values more and> > > more> > > of the time.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Most of all give yourself the gift of time. Adopt that curious> > > beginners> > > mind every day. Be willing to drop the rope more and more.> > > Experiment> > > with lots of exercises from the books. Make up your own. If you> > > are> > > going to choose your avoidance behavior, at least do so with your> > > eyes> > > open and watch what happens. Not with judgment though!> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > And know you aren't alone...I'm fortunate in that I do have AA> > > where> > > with it's imperfections, it's an amazing free supportive> > > compassionate> > > place where I get to go for an hour or two or three a week and> > > just> > > let> > > it all out. Even if I don't say a word, I am struck almost always> > > by> > > something in there, some space. Most amazing things happen in that> > > hour..I think it has something to do with the mutual sharing of> > > realizing our limitations and sharing our pain, our triumphs> > > together.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > So find support groups if you can.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > I'm having trouble with my computer keyboard so sorry if this> > > sounds> > > a> > > bit choppy!> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > good luck and hold lightly,> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > terry> > >> > > > > > To: ACT_for_the_Public@yah oogroups.com> > > Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 9:56 PM> > > Subject: Keeping up with it> > >> > >> > >> > > Hey everybody,> > >> > > I've been doing (or trying to do) the ACT thing for about 6 months> > > now,> > > and I just want to know if anybody else has the problem I'm> > > having?> > >> > > That is, well, I'm finding it really hard to keep going with it> > > consistently. I'll be able to observe and defuse from my anxiety> > > and> > > make myself do things I want to (i.e. study/diet) for about a> > > couple> > > of> > > days, but then its like I forget everything I've learned and go> > > back> > > into old habits of avoidance etc for a week. Then I remember "oh> > > shit,> > > that's right, I've gotta be mindful and all that" and get back on> > > top> > > for another couple of days before I "forget" all over again.> > >> > > My progress has been really sporadic and its really frustrating.> > > It's> > > also really frustrating that I only seem to be able to be> > > mindful/whatever for a period of 2 - 3 days before I'm back to> > > experiential avoidance for a week or two.> > >> > > I told this to my therapist, but she just says "you gotta manage> > > yourself with a diary/practice defusion/practice> > > mindfulness/observe> > > yourself" etc, but my problem is I do this for a bit then I> > > 'forget'> > > to> > > do any of it for ages. I'm aware that this 'forgetting' is> > > probably> > > me> > > not catching myself out in my old habits and then getting caught> > > up> > > in> > > procrastinating/whatever till I become aware of that again, but> > > how> > > do> > > I> > > stop myself doing that? I know its observation and defusion, but> > > how> > > do> > > I get better at that? Cause I feel like I'm really weak at it.> > > I know its probably a thing you get better at with practice.> > > Initially> > > when I started, with increasing practice I kept getting better,> > > but> > > I've> > > been at this for 6 months and its been ages since I got any> > > better.> > > I> > > feel like I've plateaued and its at a point that's well below> > > where> > > I> > > wanna be.> > >> > > How can I improve? How do you guys manage yourselves consistently?> > > How> > > do you keep up with/practice mindfulness etc?> > >> > > Does this question even make sense (I really had trouble with> > > putting> > > my> > > problem into words)?> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > >