Re: COMMON ADDICTION AND DYSFUNCTIONAL THINKING DISTORTIONS 4

[Guest guest]

I hope it's clear that I wasn't disparaging anyone with my comment!

I was speaking in shorthand, as this post was intended for , not for the group, and knows me well. I was just explaining that the examples didn't make clear sense to me. I don't know anything about opiate addiction, so I can't speak to it--which is what I was saying in shorthand. I was expressing my ignorance to , which didn't require a lot of explanation, as she already knows where my expertise lies. I only know about psych drug addiction, and it seemed to me that the examples, given in parallel, didn't quite work. They don't quite parallel one another. Does that make sense?

I do understand that this is all about addiction, of course; and anyone with any addiciton or withdrawal problems is more than welcome here! My point is that I thought the example should be less about the specifics of being addicted to a drug, and more about the life issues that lead to drugs (regardless of what type of drug it may be).

I would have used different examples altogether, perhaps about life issues, that would have illustrated these ways of thinking without talking about drugs at all. The faulty thinking came into our lives long before the drugs did. That is why I was commenting. I wouldn't have used drugs in my examples at all, had I been writing this.

I hope this is making sense. I'm in a hurry, as I have to take someone to the airport, but I wanted to get this said and posted so no one feels offended.

I see your reasoning with the first statement/example pair in the list. It still doesn't seem quite clear to me, but I see your point.

Hope this helps clarify!!

Regards,

Kim

Dear Kim,

This is so much about addiction because I wanted people to see how it helps with the thinking that leads to addiction. We have a number of people here addicted to opiates. We write very little for them. I wanted to change that.

The example you cite as proving " opposite of the statement " may not be clear but it is not opposite. The word " negative " here is in relation to behaviors that one seeks to correct wth CBT. Though the statements are positive on the part of the speakers, these are actually negative thought patterns.

Regards,

Re: COMMON ADDICTION AND DYSFUNCTIONAL THINKING DISTORTIONS 4

This one doesn't thrill me...it's all about addiction and not about how this kind of thinking permeates life. I dunno--it wouldn't resonate with me if I were in that position. Maybe opiate addicts think that way about their drug all the time...but the psych drug people don't. They think about their " illness " all the time, but they do that because it helps explain how awful they feel most of the time. The parallel between the two addicitons is not this exact. I wouldn't put them side by side this way.

In the first item, the examples prove the opposite of the statement.

[Guest guest]

((((((((KIM))))))))))))

You make me feel a little easier knowing that I'm not the only one to make

mistakes with things that should come to you rather than socialwand!!

Love ya hun

Shellx

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[Guest guest]

,

I fully recognize the correlation you are making between addiction

to illegal and legal drugs and the mindset that is so similar. The

problem, as you know, is that we have a " war on drugs " and the other

stuff isn't only accepted, but embraced in many circles.

So I too see the utility of CBT as it pertains to this. The only

thing I would add is that a central and key component to dealing

with addiction to alcohol or illegal drugs is spirituality. It

certainly is the biggest tool I use in not only dealing with my past

problems with alcohol, but also dealing with the travails of coming

off the legal drugs.

Furthermore, using CBT in conjunction with a strong spiritual base

truly has been my saving grace. I don't think I would make it

exclusively with one and they are not mutually exclusive in my view.

In other words, being spiritually sound allows me to be more open to

things like CBT.

Anyways, you touched a chord with this idea. I have often wondered

what it would be like to have support groups for people coming off

psychotropic meds. I have fancied starting such a group someday and

maybe we could share ideas on how to do such a thing where a

spiritual component, in whatever form, helps people deal with the

hell of coming off these meds. I think the biggest thing is being

able to talk to someone face to face and knowing that they

understand what you are talking about. That is why this group is so

wonderful, but I think it would be even more valuable to be able to

talk to people in person on a continuing basis about how we are

dealing with recovery.

Casey

[Guest guest]

Dear Casey,

You said:

<<I fully recognize the correlation you are making between addiction

to illegal and legal drugs and the mindset that is so similar. The

problem, as you know, is that we have a " war on drugs " and the other

stuff isn't only accepted, but embraced in many circles.

So I too see the utility of CBT as it pertains to this. The only

thing I would add is that a central and key component to dealing

with addiction to alcohol or illegal drugs is spirituality. It

certainly is the biggest tool I use in not only dealing with my past

problems with alcohol, but also dealing with the travails of coming

off the legal drugs. >>

** Right now I'm trying to introduce people to CBT with a few simple

examples and explanations. Very few people are familiar with it. Once in

groups, I'll infuse my own particular 'flavor' which is an eclectic mix of

tried and true rather than just classic CBT. It can't help but have a

spiritual component, for everything I do is from that foundation.

However, the concept of spirituality can be a conflicted one for some so

it won't be blatant in the groups. Many people who claim to not care for

anything related to spirituality are thinking about more formal references

and beliefs. Most people are open to what I say and how I say it because

they don't think of it as being spiritually-based. But I see spirituality

as being inescapable. It permeates our lives. If we are to become in sync

with the positive flow of life energy, our beliefs and actions will be

founded in spirituality -- whether we're aware of it or not!

You said:

<<Furthermore, using CBT in conjunction with a strong spiritual base

truly has been my saving grace. I don't think I would make it

exclusively with one and they are not mutually exclusive in my view.

In other words, being spiritually sound allows me to be more open to

things like CBT.>>

** Exactly. The reverse is true as well. As one opens in CBT, one

becomes more spiritual.

You said:

<<Anyways, you touched a chord with this idea. I have often wondered

what it would be like to have support groups for people coming off

psychotropic meds. I have fancied starting such a group someday and

maybe we could share ideas on how to do such a thing where a

spiritual component, in whatever form, helps people deal with the

hell of coming off these meds. I think the biggest thing is being

able to talk to someone face to face and knowing that they

understand what you are talking about. That is why this group is so

wonderful, but I think it would be even more valuable to be able to

talk to people in person on a continuing basis about how we are

dealing with recovery.>>

** I want to share my view on this with you. I believe the barrier you

see perceive in not talking face to face is in your mind alone.

The true essence of a person is available right here online unfettered

by mannerisms, appearances, etc. In fact, a person's core energy (spiritual

energy) will jump right out of an email as it is opened. Toxic energy can

also jump out. I've been slammed in the face with this more than a few

times in the past 18 years that I've been receiving email.

The same thing happens in a chat-type environment. People's moods and

mindsets are readily understood. People also tend to make themselves more

vulnerable because they don't feel the physical discomfort of being

vulnerable in a room filled with people.

As far as how to bring spirituality into recovery, I think it's

important to meet people where they're at. I seldom speak directly to

people about spirituality unless I recognize they are open to it. Instead,

by coming from a heart/spirit-centered place in interactions with people,

the interaction becomes infused with Spirit. Speaking of spiritual concepts

in general terms is non-threatening and allows people to frame these

concepts however they want (God, Allah, the Universe, Buddha, G_d, nature,

etc.). Some never put a name on it. Naming it is not at all important.

It's possible that naming it limits it.

Instead, we can teach people how to think, how to cope -- how to live in

one's spirit without ever having to get close to putting a name on it. It

takes a fair amount of thought and practice to do this especially if you

are used to using a language that is blatantly spiritual and/or religious.

But with some thought and practice, it can be done.

I saw something repeatedly years ago that I never want to perpetrate upon

people. There were the addictions specialists and the mental health

specialists. The MH specialists would ask for something different from AA

for their people. They were told repeatedly by the addictions " specialists "

that " AA is the only way. "

Well we got tired of hearing that, and in 1984, a few of us developed

programs that came to be called dual diagnosis or MICA programs. AA was

seldom a component but groups were. The program was a huge success and is

now a model for about 30 states.

I think recovery is easier if one has a spiritual foundation but I don't

think it is impossible without one. I also think it is possible to be a

spiritual person and never utilize the concept of God. Many people act from

their natural spirituality without ever being aware of it.

So, are you interested in the CBT group? I was thinking that given the

events of the past several months I could see you benefiting from this.

Regards,

[Guest guest]

and Casey I would LOVE to have a support group for psychiatric drug withdrawal and recovery over here in London. I've been 25 years around two 12 step fellowships and unwelcome in both. Its been my experience that drug and alcohol addiction are no different from psychiatric drug addiction which is progressive and in my case, almost fatal 3 months ago. C Creel wrote: Dear Casey, You said: <<I fully recognize the correlation you are making between addiction to illegal and legal drugs and the mindset that is so similar. The problem, as you know, is that we have a "war on drugs" and the other stuff isn't only accepted, but embraced in many circles. So I too see the utility of CBT as it pertains to this.

The only thing I would add is that a central and key component to dealing with addiction to alcohol or illegal drugs is spirituality. It certainly is the biggest tool I use in not only dealing with my past problems with alcohol, but also dealing with the travails of coming off the legal drugs. >> ** Right now I'm trying to introduce people to CBT with a few simple examples and explanations. Very few people are familiar with it. Once in groups, I'll infuse my own particular 'flavor' which is an eclectic mix of tried and true rather than just classic CBT. It can't help but have a spiritual component, for everything I do is from that foundation. However, the concept of spirituality can be a conflicted one for some so it won't be blatant in the groups. Many people who claim to not care for anything related to spirituality are thinking

about more formal references and beliefs. Most people are open to what I say and how I say it because they don't think of it as being spiritually-based. But I see spirituality as being inescapable. It permeates our lives. If we are to become in sync with the positive flow of life energy, our beliefs and actions will be founded in spirituality -- whether we're aware of it or not! You said: <<Furthermore, using CBT in conjunction with a strong spiritual base truly has been my saving grace. I don't think I would make it exclusively with one and they are not mutually exclusive in my view. In other words, being spiritually sound allows me to be more open to things like CBT.>> ** Exactly. The reverse is true as well. As one opens in CBT, one becomes more spiritual. You said: <<Anyways, you touched a chord with this idea. I have often wondered what it would be like to have support groups for people coming off psychotropic meds. I have fancied starting such a group someday and maybe we could share ideas on how to do such a thing where a spiritual component, in whatever form, helps people deal with the hell of coming off these meds. I think the biggest thing is being able to talk to someone face to face and knowing that they understand what you are talking about. That is why this group is so wonderful, but I think it would be even more valuable to be able to talk to people in person on a continuing basis about how we are dealing with recovery.>> ** I want to share my view on this with you. I believe the barrier you see perceive in not talking face to face is in your mind alone. The true essence

of a person is available right here online unfettered by mannerisms, appearances, etc. In fact, a person's core energy (spiritual energy) will jump right out of an email as it is opened. Toxic energy can also jump out. I've been slammed in the face with this more than a few times in the past 18 years that I've been receiving email. The same thing happens in a chat-type environment. People's moods and mindsets are readily understood. People also tend to make themselves more vulnerable because they don't feel the physical discomfort of being vulnerable in a room filled with people. As far as how to bring spirituality into recovery, I think it's important to meet people where they're at. I seldom speak directly to people about spirituality unless I recognize they are open to it. Instead, by coming from a

heart/spirit-centered place in interactions with people, the interaction becomes infused with Spirit. Speaking of spiritual concepts in general terms is non-threatening and allows people to frame these concepts however they want (God, Allah, the Universe, Buddha, G_d, nature, etc.). Some never put a name on it. Naming it is not at all important. It's possible that naming it limits it. Instead, we can teach people how to think, how to cope -- how to live in one's spirit without ever having to get close to putting a name on it. It takes a fair amount of thought and practice to do this especially if you are used to using a language that is blatantly spiritual and/or religious. But with some thought and practice, it can be done. I saw something repeatedly years ago that I never want to perpetrate upon people. There were the addictions

specialists and the mental health specialists. The MH specialists would ask for something different from AA for their people. They were told repeatedly by the addictions "specialists" that "AA is the only way." Well we got tired of hearing that, and in 1984, a few of us developed programs that came to be called dual diagnosis or MICA programs. AA was seldom a component but groups were. The program was a huge success and is now a model for about 30 states. I think recovery is easier if one has a spiritual foundation but I don't think it is impossible without one. I also think it is possible to be a spiritual person and never utilize the concept of God. Many people act from their natural spirituality without ever being aware of it. So, are you interested in the CBT group? I was thinking that given the events

of the past several months I could see you benefiting from this. Regards,

Win a BlackBerry device from O2 with Yahoo!. Enter now.

[Guest guest]

" I want to share my view on this with you. I believe the barrier you

see perceive in not talking face to face is in your mind alone.

The true essence of a person is available right here online

unfettered

by mannerisms, appearances, etc. In fact, a person's core energy

(spiritual

energy) will jump right out of an email as it is opened. "

I can " hear " people when I read their emails. That sounds weird but

it's true, when I read emails from Kim it's as if she is speaking to

me, I can even picture some of her facial expressions! I feel

's and Kim's energy through their emails, I like being able

to feel this because everyone is so different. It's fascinating!

It took me forever to have the courage to ring on the

phone....even though he probably know's more about me than most!

I don't need to see folk, to even hear them on a telephone....I can

sense it all from their words.

The CBT will be great, come and join us?

Love

[Guest guest]

,

Thanks so much for the thoughtful reply. Very interesting takes. I

hadn't heard of the MICA programs and just googled it and like what

I have read so far.

I especially liked what you said about the inverse being true with

CBT bringing more spiritual awareness. EIther way, we can both see

how each is conducive for the other. I am not sure I agree with you

about face to face versus online and email, but I caught your drift

and I certainly wouldn't minimize it.

My experience with AA has been one where I have cherry picked the

things I like and have thrown the rest in the scrap heap, but the

general notion that states that spirituality is a vital component to

recovery in any capacity is what I like. My general goal has been

one of intellectual, spiritual, and emotional growth and constantly

trying to attain it. Hence, I'd welcome the chance to try the CBT. I

am involved in my own version, but I always welcome input and ideas

from you. I gotta go back and read what the parameters are. Whether

it is online or in person, my philosophy has been about trying to

surround myself with open-minded people in whatever arena they come

from. Count me in.

I appreciate you asking, especially given the tumult I have

experiences of late.

Casey