Re: Re: suicidal thoughts/values

[Guest guest]

Henrik,Yes, I really hear you and see we're saying the pretty much the same thing. I totally get the importance of opening up to emotions and holding longings tenderly and not precipitously tossing them aside or getting too mindy about is this really a value or what? Sometimes just being still and opening up to the moment fully, completely is more than enough. Especially for me, someone who has "skipped that step" time and again. I long for more calm too. I long for a lot of the same

things you have mentioned in these posts. And I have some of the same fears you have too..like sometimes thinking I get dumber as the years go by! Like I noticed here I said I was going to just talk about process and jumped right in with content stuff..duh!Anyway, another cool way I'm finding to get to values is to really pay attention to anything and everything that sparks my interest, gets my juices going, moves me. Might be a piece of music, or a comment or joke from a radio or t.v. show or the way the big trees outside just hum for me. I think Randy mentioned this a few weeks ago..and

sometimes these moments can be really something surprising and happen/arise rather quickly--or be very muddled as you say-- so it helps to jot it down and maybe even write a bit about it. I think that's what you may be saying too. Because my mind will actually dismiss/negate/"forget" these precious moments really quickly..maybe that's more evidence of the Negativity Bias folks were talking about earlier. I'm sometimes so busy trying to "solve problems", including dodging fears that aren't even there, that I don't "hear" the simple wisdom right there at my feet. Another useful way I'm working on to increase values awareness in addition to looking at emotions and interests is to review my day and consider all the things I encountered, said, did that seemed useful, worthwhile (not necessarily pleasant/comfortable but maybe so). Let them bubble up. Reading your posts here fall into the very worthwhile category and fill me with gratitude

for your interesting thoughts, your sharing, your honesty, your kindness, your responsiveness. Just some of the kinds of qualities I hope to bring along more of the time. warm regards,terry From: "Henrik

Nordin," To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 2:06 PM Subject: Re: Re: suicidal thoughts

Thanks Terry, I do hope that this post is even vaguely interesting to some folks on the list...ACT and even more so RFT has at its aim a precise use of language that can predict and influence with precision. I couldn't agree more, and I'm truly fascinated by my own process of getting to know this better and better as time passes (hopefully... sometimes I think I get dumber as the years go by). Anyway - This process exists right along another process - that of opening up to emotions, memories, thoughts in order to live my life more fully. If the process of understanding more of RFT and ACT creates clarity, the process of opening up can - short term and for me - create another outcome. I'm talking about what happens to me at least when I say yes, accept and allow things that I've been doing my best to suppress before. Urges, longing, irrational and rational strivings mixed

together erupt and creates confusion. Like a longing for a calm life. It may or may not be a value to want a calm life - but I think the longing is something to be held tenderly. How can I approach this longing in a way that is self-compassionate and patient? Can there be activities that I can add to my repertoire that can lead me in that direction? Doesn't matter if it's a value or not... What emotions and memories are associated with that longing? Even if it's more or less muddled, there may still be valuable things inside that. It did come up naturally, so I should respect it and open up to it in small steps. Thank you for your kind words. I'm happy to be a part of this list. Henrik Hey dear friend,Just giving you a hard time cause I've known you for a while and it'sgreat to have you share so fully here. Really great.Your sharing hascreated a huge opening for me..that recent one about finances..oh my,could i relate!Plus, I know you know my comments are not attacks and that is sorefreshing..thanks for that!Yeah, there are millions of ways to get at values, and we could discussthe details/content more here if you want.For now I'll just address our process work, because that seems moreimportant.I hope I didn't sound like a word whore here. It's more like where thewords lead us, you know? In terms of outcomes. It seems

there'senoughevidence out now with ACT to show us a more effective and potentways to language up values and committed action goals. But you need tostart where you are, where the energy is and go from there. By allmeans.I think something that grabbed at me with your recent posts was I heardmaybe you painting yourself into too tight of a corner.I guess what Iwas speaking to in part is this work is not about learning to feelBETTER but about learning to FEEL better. But you've been around ACTmaybe longer than me, so you know this better than I do perhaps!Maybe it was because you said something earlier about having a calm lifeas a value...I don't know..But I think I see now you're just looking at what your values are from adifferent starting place--- from suffering thoughts, longings,needs...so if that works for you, keep going!Any forward

feeling movement should be celebrated, not suppressed here!Thanks for playing along...hope we can continue!< br>warm regards,terryTo: "ACT_for_the_Public "<ACT_for_the_Public >; ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 9:46 PMSubject: Re: Re: suicidal thoughtsNo problem, Terry!I like this back and forth discussion about wording - I think it'simportant. Words are not so clear cut, IMHO, even though we aim for it.Sometimes I mix it up even if I've read a

hundred times what valuesare...What I meant was:Some of the things we aim for in life are indeed not values: I.e.happiness, peace, joy, not having anxiety etc...I don't think a correct way to deal with the longing is saying toyourself: "I musn't want this - it's not a value" (not saying you'resaying that Terry - just trying to explain my point..) One way is justto accept the longing as a longing and all the emotions associated withthe longing.Another way is to go with the flow so to say and take a longing like"peace" or "joy" and see what behaviors would take you that way.Peace: going home from work on time, holding my tongue at meetingssometimes...Joy: Being with the dog, talking to friends, going to parties...Then you can take it a step further and transform these activities intovalues... See what

those behaviors have in common and see what valuelies behind it...Taking care of myselfBeing a good and close friend...Makes sense?? (I'm really asking, Terry.))Warm greetingsHenrik> > > > > Oh, Henrik, sorry..I might be completely off base here.. I do see you> now are saying "building peace into life"..that feels much more like a> value, an active doing, an ongoing process.> > > > > Feel free to disregard if my cautionary notes don't apply!> > > > > terry> > >

> > > To: "ACT_for_the_Public "> <ACT_for_the_Public >> Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 3:57 PM> Subject: Re: Re: suicidal thoughts> > > Hi Bob and Henrik,> > > > Sorry you're having such discomfort now Bob. I can tell you> disspointments like this won't ever go away fully but practicing ACT> does help me focus on other things and just takes the wind out of lots> of the pain. People places and situations become more over time less> dramatic.> > Just what it is and

not what my mind insists it is. And with that you> become more effective and creative and dealing with what's so.> > I have a long way to go but just wanted to offer some hope. Keep> digging> in the work with time and practice.> > > > > One of the problems with death btw is we're just dead. We're not calm,> we're not "not calm" either. We cease to have evaluative descriptive> language and cognition for whatever is going on when we're dead, so> far> as I understand. Unless you know something about death that I don't!> > > > Henrik...Not trying to pick on you but caught something here you may> want to look at:> > > > Feeling states like peace, calm, soothing are nice to want but very> tricky to have as values. I say this only because I think Henrik I've> heard you mention this a

couple of times..again, not trying to pick on> you but it's been such a point of confusion in ACT land I think it's> worth a closer look.> > > > A value called "a calm life" feels like it's some place to arrive at,> an> outcome where you're perpetually calm and not say (god forbid!)> agitated. It's not a bad thing to want more calm, but I'm not sure> calm> as a feeling state is helpful wording for a value in ACT land.> > Maybe this is just a language thing again, maybe you're meaning it> more> as an opening up to and not a place you are chasing after.> > For more clarity on this issue of values such as happiness,> contentment,> serenity, I don't think it gets much better than post> from> the professional list. Message #9136.> > Sure helped me a ton.> > >

> > Kind regards,> > terry> > > > > > To: <ACT_for_the_Public >> Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 10:45 AM> Subject: Re: Re: suicidal thoughts> > > > Thank you Bob,> > I'll chip in, and I think Maarten will answer more later...> > > > > The thought you had that doesn't go away: "What's life for if not for> experiencing as much pleasure as possible?" is interesting I think. I> think there could be a

value hidden there. Thoughts that don't go away> usually have either a value behind them or an emotional pain that> needs> to be accepted and expressed as I see it.> > > > > I think there's definitely a value there... Maybe it only needs to be> rephrased a little? Pleasure in your relationship with your wife could> be: having an open climate where you can openly talk about how money> should be spent, about your need to have an emergency fund, how the> burden of economic responsibility could be shared more equally between> you and your wife? Long term - I mean. Maybe she's not in a position> to> do that right now, but maybe it's important for you to express these> concerns even now. So that she can see what you need of her as well.> These are just my guesses...> > > > > And the peace you felt if you

where hanging and everybody where> crying:> I think there's values there: Peace is important when you're alive too> -> not only when you imagine your death. How can you get more peace and> calm in your life now? Not easy short term, but long term - how can> you> step by step build more peace into your life? Peace for me is reading> in> the sun, being close to those I love... What is peace for you?> > > > > Same goes for soothing. Guessing: how can you fill your life with more> soothing activities? Soothing to you I mean. Soothing for me means:> being with the dog, taking time off, dating, talking to people who can> listen... Soothing to you could be something different... What's> soothing to you? How can you get more of that into you life? Small> babysteps...> > > > > Take care,>

> Henrik> > > > > >> >> > Hi Maarten and Henrik.> >> > Thanks for your replies and help.> >> > What happened was I gave my wife a large amount of money to use to> > look> > for work overseas. The main reason I handed over the money was I was> > I> > felt guilty that I wasn't able to give a larger amount.> >> > She went overseas with his brother and looked for a job but wasn't> > successful. They're coming back this week.> >> > I asked if there was some money left and my told me that there is no> > more left. Then I had the thought that I had lost a lot of money.

My> > wife and I don't have an emergency fund anymore. I had thoughts> > like,> > "I> > should not have given her the money." "Why the hell did I give her> > the> > money? I could have just used that to pay her credit card bills and> > then> > helped her work here in our country."> >> > I, then got the feeling of depression. The familiar image of hanging> > myself in my room came to me.> >> > I was able to use mindfulness breathing and other techniques. I'm> > now> > feeling better but I might get this feeling again. I've having this> > recurrent suicidal feeling since I was a kid.> >> > Maarten, suicidal thoughts can be soothing sometimes. Sometimes i> > have> > the image of me hanging by a rope and dead and feeling peace with my> > wife and

relatives crying over me.> >> > It is soothing in the short term but it does get stronger and gets> > scarier sometimes.> >> > Henrik, it's great that you were able to cope with it by talking it> > out> > with people.> >> > For me the "losing" of the money did bring feelings shame, guilt and> > anger. I also got the feeling of fear of needing money but not able> > to> > have any. I also had the thought that money gave me security and> > that> > I> > shouldn't waste it. I also had the thought that I was stupid.> >> > I then also had the thought that I shouldn't have thought that I> > lost> > my> > money because I used for a good cause. My mind could be awful> > sometimes!> >> > I thought about the strongest reasons for living.

The strongest> > reason> > for me not to kill myself is that when I hung myself I might end up> > paralyzed which is worse than being dead.> >> > I fought with my thought of suicide by telling myself that my values> > are> > what I'm living for. But my mind answered that life is about feeling> > as> > much pleasure as possible. I had thoughts like, "What's life for if> > not> > for experiencing as much pleasure as possible?" I'm not able to> > refute> > this thought and feels reasonable and true.> >> > So that's what happened. Thanks for sharing your experiences to me> > and> > helping me.> >> > Bob> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > To: ACT_for_the_Public <ACT_for_the_Public >> > Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 4:47 AM> > Subject: Re: Re: suicidal thoughts> >> >> >> >> >> > After Maarten's wonderful post...> >> >> >> > I have been there too, and am still recovering from it. I don't mean> > to> > make it worse for you - as it has been going on for so long for me-> > but> > let me explain and clarify: I lost a lot of money several years ago,> > but> > I was not totally poor after the loss. I

still had an apartment and> > some> > money left. But the loss which came very quick hit me like nothing> > hurt> > me before I think.> >> >> >> > Before I lost the money, I more or less unconsciously used money as> > a> > cushion. Money insulated me from having to need people - and the> > risk> > of> > abandonment and also from the very exposed position you're in when> > you're dependent on keeping a job to pay your bills.> >> >> >> > I had to do a lot of emotional work that consisted of talk and talk> > and> > talk about the situation I was in and that helped a lot. I cried.> >> >> >> > I also had to change my life: Suddenly I had to go to different> > grocery> > stores to buy food, I

had to take jobs that where not well paid> > etc...> > The talking helped and step by step I uncovered that I associated> > the> > loss of the money with shame as Maarten also experienced and also> > with> > a> > lot of early fearful memories of not being taken cared of when I was> > a> > small kid. The money had taken care of me so to speak and now it was> > mostly gone.> >> >> >> > I've been dealing with the aftermaths of this for a long time, but> > what> > I'm working on now is no longer about the loss of money so much. Now> > it's about me not trusting life, not trusting my friends,not> > trusting> > myself. Before the loss, money covered up that distrust. Now it's> > out> > in> > the open. That's ultimately a good thing.

Better to know the facts> > and> > then work with that, than living a lie - that money was my savior -> > which was my case.> >> >> >> > This was my story...> >> >> >> > If it is at all possible for you - would you like to write down some> > more details for us as Maarten asked?> >> > When did this happen?> >> > What's the situation today?> >> > What have you been trying?> >> >> >> > Hope this helps. > >> > Best> >> > Henrik> >> >> >> >> > On 27 aug 2012 11:55 "Maarten" <m.aalbersegmail (DOT) com>> > wrote:> >> > >> > >> > >> > > I've been there... and I have been "fortunate" (double meaning> > > intended...) with my friends, without whom I probably wouldn't be> > > there anymore...> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > For me at least, the biggest thing was not the loss of money> > > itself,> > > but the shame it triggered in me. Does that ring a bell? (I would> > > have> > > loved to add your name here, would you be willing to give us a> > > name?> > > doesn't have to be your official name, though...).> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > In ACT terms: "having money" is a goal, not a value, are you> >

> familiar> > > with this distinction?> > >> > > So one very important way forward for me has been to remind myself> > > of> > > the values that I believed needed that money in order forme being> > > able> > > to express those values.> > >> > > it was very liberating for me to realize (again and again, because> > > it's so easy to forget in our culture) that even at my poorest I> > > still> > > could make gestures of friendship (one of my values)...> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > On a completely differ ent level: I have no clue of how much in> > > danger> > > you are to do the irreparable and definitive.> > >> > > If this danger seems big, please look for professional help,too,>

> > in> > > addition to reaching out here - which indeed is a wonderful> > > gesture).> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Another thing: thinking suicidal thoughts was a way of soothing> > > me,> > > strange as this may sound for some.> > >> > > And precisely because they are soothing on the short term, they> > > became> > > stronger and stronger (and thus scarier and scarier...).> > >> > > So I had to find other ways of soothing me - and yes realizing> > > that> > > I> > > could still "worktowards friendship" was one of the ways Isoothed> > > me;in thought and... more importantlly still on the longer term,> > > in> > > action.> > >> > >> > >>

> >> > > I hope you can stay with us (and with people physically closer to> > > you),> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Maarten> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > >> > > > I have been having suicidal thoughts since losing a large amount> > > > of> > > > money. Please help. Any ACT techniques I can use? Please help.> > > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > >

> > > > > >