Re: When do you confront them?

[Guest guest]

Nanleejoy,

This is a very common scenario. My father believes that even when

my nada is wrong, he has to support her, because that is his role as

a husband. It is very hard to accept that our parents will not

change - particularly because we have spent our lifetime hoping for

change, and trying to cause a change. But, once you can accept

that, wonderful things can happen as you can reclaim your life as

your own, and not as a person who has to serve the needs of a BPD

parent.

When to confront your nada? Whenever you need to in order to define

or protect your boundaries. I understand that we have to recognize

that this is an illness - but that does not allow them to be

abusive. Many, many people have various illnesses and disabilities -

but that does not excuse their behavior.

I was glad to hear that you did stand up to defend your friend. I

have seen that many KOs (me included) will accept abuse, until it is

directed at a friend or a child. You have seen that your various

other attempts to be rational have not had an effect on your nada.

If it has been typical practice to 'just pretend it didn't happen'

in the past, you can expect more of the same in the future. If your

father has not responded, you can just bring up the topic again.

Otherwise, he will maintain the status quo of ignoring what you have

said.

Bottom line - the only changes will be those that you make. Your

nada and father have a vested interest in maintaining the

relationship as it has been. But you understand that it is in your

best interest to change.

Take care,

Sylvia

>

> I am always struggling with when to confront my nada. Most of the

> time I an able to accept that it is an illness and that

confronting

> her will not work. But recently her rage has gotten out of hand

and

> she has said some hurtful (and very tacky and childish!) things.

> One of the things said hurt not only me, but a friend of mine...so

I

> felt like I had to say something.

>

> I finally felt all my anger and upset come to the surface and I

> vented to my father. I have tried in the past to vent to my nada,

> but she always seems to talk right over me, won't look me in the

> eye, and we get nowhere. She cannot apologize and actually denies

> saying things that she has said in the past---even if she said

them

> less than 3 minutes ago!!! I tried writing her a letter--she read

> it, but it was like I never did anything! So recently I tried

> venting to my father. He said he would " think about things "

(things

> meaning seeing a counselor, etc). This was 3 weeks ago. He has

> never mentioned it again, nor have I. I'm wondering if it is

worth

> me pressuring him to address nada's problem, or if I should just

> keep accepting that nada will not change and that my father is

> living in fear and will not get her to seek counseling. He is

> taking the easy road of staying out of her way and I can't blame

> him. I believe my only choice is to " deal " with the emotional

> abuse...try to brush it off..or just drop contact for good. I

have

> dropped contact in the past when things were really bad. It's

> always around 3 weeks after this happens that I get either an

angry

> phone call about me not calling home (they never call me...I'm

> expected to call every time)....or I just got a phone call

> pretending nothing happened. There is never an apology and always

a

> denial!

>

[Guest guest]

Sorry, but " confronting " isn't really in the playbook when dealing

with a BPD.

All you can do is calmly state what you'll put up with (or however

you word it) -- the point being that it concerns what YOU will do or

not do, or tolerate. Anything that seeks to motivate THEM will fall

on their highly developed defense mechanisms and will usually fail.

BPDs aren't really capable of admitting to wrong acts or patterns of

behavior. All you can do is gather yourself up, draw the line as to

what you'll put up with, and MEAN IT. Then, get on with your life.

My father is the same when it concerns my mother -- he defends her

at my expense. He tries to lure me into going along with it, with

folksy lines like " That's just how she is and I've accepted it. "

(Translation: " YOU need to put up with what she dishes out, without

question, just like me!! " )

" Understanding the Borderline Mother " put it into words and it hit

me between the eyes when I read it: Husbands of BPD women can be

seemingly good fathers UNTIL they find themselves in a situation

where they have to choose between the child and the BPD mother.

They usually pick the mother -- because they married them in the

first place for a reason: to be their rescuer. That dynamic was

established BEFORE the kids came along, so they've already formed an

alliance before we were born.

I think the best thing to do is focus on ourselves and determining

how much we can tolerate of the BPDs antics -- then, draw the line.

Arguing, confronting, reasoning are all pretty much useless. BPDs

don't reason, they FEEL.

-Kyla

>

> I am always struggling with when to confront my nada. Most of the

> time I an able to accept that it is an illness and that

confronting

> her will not work. But recently her rage has gotten out of hand

and

> she has said some hurtful (and very tacky and childish!) things.

> One of the things said hurt not only me, but a friend of mine...so

I

> felt like I had to say something.

>

> I finally felt all my anger and upset come to the surface and I

> vented to my father. I have tried in the past to vent to my nada,

> but she always seems to talk right over me, won't look me in the

> eye, and we get nowhere. She cannot apologize and actually denies

> saying things that she has said in the past---even if she said

them

> less than 3 minutes ago!!! I tried writing her a letter--she read

> it, but it was like I never did anything! So recently I tried

> venting to my father. He said he would " think about things "

(things

> meaning seeing a counselor, etc). This was 3 weeks ago. He has

> never mentioned it again, nor have I. I'm wondering if it is

worth

> me pressuring him to address nada's problem, or if I should just

> keep accepting that nada will not change and that my father is

> living in fear and will not get her to seek counseling. He is

> taking the easy road of staying out of her way and I can't blame

> him. I believe my only choice is to " deal " with the emotional

> abuse...try to brush it off..or just drop contact for good. I

have

> dropped contact in the past when things were really bad. It's

> always around 3 weeks after this happens that I get either an

angry

> phone call about me not calling home (they never call me...I'm

> expected to call every time)....or I just got a phone call

> pretending nothing happened. There is never an apology and always

a

> denial!

>

[Guest guest]

But recently her rage has gotten out of hand and

she has said some hurtful (and very tacky and childish!) things.

One of the things said hurt not only me, but a friend of mine...

________________

What *else* do you expect them to do? Something normal?

Triangulation is always their last resort when they can’t control directly

or need some ‘reinforcing’.

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12:09 PM

[Guest guest]

Hi Nanleejoy,

I can certainly relate. In my case, any talking to my Dad or Nana about the

problem would not work. Your situation sounds very familiar, the not

calling me and cold shoulder or calling and pretending nothing happened,

etc....I never get an apology, never will and complete denial on Nada's

part of any wrong doing. When she is on the attack, usually expects others

to apologize, never her saying I'm sorry or admitting to any wrong doing.

She may not call me but go around and tell all my sisters that I never call

her. And Dad just tries to keep the peace by agreeing with her in private,

so he does not become her target, ofcourse he often is and he suffers from

mental illness (severe depression with psychosis) and her episodes cause

him so much stress he often gets very sick after her outbreaks. He is a

very quite gentle man with not much to say, probably due to his illness and

her beating him down over the years. I suggest you take care of yourself. I

have reduced my contacts with my Nada, limit phone calls, keep

conversations short, brief and impersonal, keep my life as private as

possible. Unfortunately my " Spy Sister " runs back and tells my mother

everything I say to her, so I have since decided to do the same with

sister, as I consider her an enabler and part of the problem. Next time she

calls you on the phone and attacks you, you can choose not to have the

conversation with her and tell her you have to go. If she tries to pretend

nothing happened in the past (which my Nada has done as well, trashed me to

everyone and then wonders why I rarely call and visit) you can decide to

forgive her and move forward, however that does not work for me as she

continues to abuse me.....I instead have decided not to let her away with

this abuse by not even disucssing it with her, as she can't handle

dicussing it without going off her head or without being honest with me

,and then completing twisiting what I say and again trashing me to all my

sisters, the cycle of abuse just continues and drama continues... thus I

have chosen to move forward with a new distant relationship with

her....good luck.....let us know how things go...cheers Broomie

......At 04:21 AM 1/4/2008 +0000, you wrote:

>I am always struggling with when to confront my nada. Most of the

>time I an able to accept that it is an illness and that confronting

>her will not work. But recently her rage has gotten out of hand and

>she has said some hurtful (and very tacky and childish!) things.

>One of the things said hurt not only me, but a friend of mine...so I

>felt like I had to say something.

[Guest guest]

I agree with Kyla. Confronting your nada is useless. YOu can however decide

when you need

to protect yourself from her. State that her behavior is unacceptable (in your

own words) and

that you are removing yourself from the situation to let her think about it

calm down

whatever and then leave or hang up.

I wish I had known that I could not advise or otherwise help her earlier. She

perceives it as an

attempt to control her. She may say what she thinks I want to hear when I am

trying to talk to

her about an issue but then she claims that she never agreed to something. I

call her on it

but it is pretty much a futile effort. Lots of wasted energy.

Was trying to get her to not buy dog number nine recently. Should have just

saved my breath.

She did pay off her mortgage and other debts with the life insurance money.

My dad has a very colorful saying that applies to our relationships with nadas

and fadas.

" wish in one hand and sh!t in the other...see which one fills up faster! "

Crude but accurate.

Carla

[Guest guest]

Kyla,

I just read your reply here (I'm catching up...) and I can't express

how much I agree with " ...BPD's don't reason, they FEEL. "

My nada is JUST like that. You hit the nail on the head. I never

understood her weirdo reactions to things until I knew she was a

borderline.

Thanks for summing it up so clearly!

Grace

> >

> > I am always struggling with when to confront my nada. Most of the

> > time I an able to accept that it is an illness and that

> confronting

> > her will not work. But recently her rage has gotten out of hand

> and

> > she has said some hurtful (and very tacky and childish!) things.

> > One of the things said hurt not only me, but a friend of mine...so

> I

> > felt like I had to say something.

> >

> > I finally felt all my anger and upset come to the surface and I

> > vented to my father. I have tried in the past to vent to my nada,

> > but she always seems to talk right over me, won't look me in the

> > eye, and we get nowhere. She cannot apologize and actually denies

> > saying things that she has said in the past---even if she said

> them

> > less than 3 minutes ago!!! I tried writing her a letter--she read

> > it, but it was like I never did anything! So recently I tried

> > venting to my father. He said he would " think about things "

> (things

> > meaning seeing a counselor, etc). This was 3 weeks ago. He has

> > never mentioned it again, nor have I. I'm wondering if it is

> worth

> > me pressuring him to address nada's problem, or if I should just

> > keep accepting that nada will not change and that my father is

> > living in fear and will not get her to seek counseling. He is

> > taking the easy road of staying out of her way and I can't blame

> > him. I believe my only choice is to " deal " with the emotional

> > abuse...try to brush it off..or just drop contact for good. I

> have

> > dropped contact in the past when things were really bad. It's

> > always around 3 weeks after this happens that I get either an

> angry

> > phone call about me not calling home (they never call me...I'm

> > expected to call every time)....or I just got a phone call

> > pretending nothing happened. There is never an apology and always

> a

> > denial!

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I recently read an article about stress clouding, and in some cases, eclipsing

memory. I think this is especially true for BPs and KOs--I have the hardest

time recalling what our hundreds of family fights were about growing up, I just

remember weird fragments.

Tonight, for instance, I was telling my boyfriend about a huge blow up two

Easters ago during which an egg dropped into nada's lap (step dad had been

foolish enough to dye several eggs without making one for her) and that + the

dye on her pants caused her to go ballistic. She ran into my bathroom, grabbed

my toothbrush, demanded I use it to scrub out the stain (despite the fact that

the egg falling off the table had been her fault) and we proceeded to have a

huge, six-hour marathon of a fight that she felt necessitated her to come two

hours late to the brunch I was hosting for her the following day (she was

visiting me at grad school and my friends wanted to meet her). We had another

huge fight after the brunch--no clue what it was about--I just remember her

throwing a bread pudding on the floor and stalking out. No recollection of the

content of the two days of fighting but the toothbrush and bread pudding

memories stand out. Strange.

I think another the reason the fights are so hard to remember is that they're

usually completely irrational. It's like trying to remember a lie or the

nonsensical rules to Oz after having left it for awhile...

kylaboo728 wrote:

My nada has trouble remembering agreements and past incidents --

whether out of convenience, or a real emotional fog, she blithely

claims not to remember, shrugs her shoulders and dismisses it. You're

left sitting there going " What????.....

That's one of the cards mom plays when " confronted " about something

she's done. The other one you can count on is, when she's in

the " hotseat " about something she's doing or not doing, she'll turn on

the waterworks. You can't reason with her in any form. I think

that's why she's able to sustain the Silent Treatment for so long:

partly because she's terrified at what you'd say if there was an

actual discussion about whatever issue is stuck in her craw. It's

easier just to blame me, stay the silent martyr, and hope someone else

breaks the stalemate.

-Kyla

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Kyla,

My brother says if nada doesn't quit trash talking about everyone he is going to

start using

his recorder on his cell phone to record her and play it back when she starts in

on him not

wanting to listen to her and her tirades.

She is bugging him about going to church with her again. Yeah the same church

where

she has told every member of the congregation that will listen that he is

physically

abusing her. And she is just clueless about why he does not want to go. He

doesn't want

to say anything about it to her because he knows it will start another huge

fight. I told her

that if she is gonna tell them about him grabbing her arms and pushing her

against a wall

then she needs to qualify it...that she used to hit him and he thought she was

going to hit

him that day. He just wanted to make sure she did not hit him because he is

afraid if she

ever does it again that he will completely lose his mind on her.

They are just clueless.

xoxo Carla

>

> My nada has trouble remembering agreements and past incidents --

> whether out of convenience, or a real emotional fog, she blithely

> claims not to remember, shrugs her shoulders and dismisses it. You're

> left sitting there going " What????.....

>

> That's one of the cards mom plays when " confronted " about something

> she's done. The other one you can count on is, when she's in

> the " hotseat " about something she's doing or not doing, she'll turn on

> the waterworks. You can't reason with her in any form. I think

> that's why she's able to sustain the Silent Treatment for so long:

> partly because she's terrified at what you'd say if there was an

> actual discussion about whatever issue is stuck in her craw. It's

> easier just to blame me, stay the silent martyr, and hope someone else

> breaks the stalemate.

>

> -Kyla

>

[Guest guest]

That all sounds so familiar. They love drama -- and dramatic exits

are their favorite.

> My nada has trouble remembering agreements and past

incidents --

> whether out of convenience, or a real emotional fog, she blithely

> claims not to remember, shrugs her shoulders and dismisses it.

You're

> left sitting there going " What????.....

>

> That's one of the cards mom plays when " confronted " about

something

> she's done. The other one you can count on is, when she's in

> the " hotseat " about something she's doing or not doing, she'll

turn on

> the waterworks. You can't reason with her in any form. I think

> that's why she's able to sustain the Silent Treatment for so long:

> partly because she's terrified at what you'd say if there was an

> actual discussion about whatever issue is stuck in her craw. It's

> easier just to blame me, stay the silent martyr, and hope someone

else

> breaks the stalemate.

>

> -Kyla

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with

Yahoo! Search.

>

>