Guest guest Posted May 31, 2006 Report Share Posted May 31, 2006 , Here is an interesting site. www.orthomolecular.org You may have heard of Linus ing, the man who pioneered large doses of vitamin C. He was also one of the pioneers in orthomolecular medicine. Try going through this site. It may raise more questions, but I know you like to understand the basis for things. The best way I can answer your question is to say that on this list we aren't just dealing with the broad generalities of deficient modern food that you mentioned, but with the severe nutrient depletion of the people on this list. Speaking generally, many of us were not eating anywhere near a balanced diet to start with. Some of us lived off sugar and white carbs. Then our bodies were further depleted and imbalanced by drugs. Underneath it all, many of us inherited nutritional deficiencies from our parents. My mother lived off coffee, coke, chocolate, and martinis. This can't be remedied solely by taking supplements in amounts that would be adequate to protect a healthy person who had always eaten the best possible diet under modern circumstances. will be able to explain this much better, but being up at 4 am, I had to try! New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2006 Report Share Posted May 31, 2006 Hi , Good morning early bird (Or is it late bird?)My body wants to join you in this schedule. It wants to go to bed at 8 p.m. and I keep coming wide awake at 4. If I obeyed, I wouldn't feel jet-lagged all the time. I also wouldn't have time in the evening to do anything or go anywhere and I'd rarely see my husband. It's a nasty choice to have to make but I choose the jet-lag. My light visor did remedy this and to be honest I'm missing it. I headed you off regarding the supplements, LOLOL. I've spent a good chunk of the morning looking at the very site you gave here, it being the first one that came up on Google, and a good one too. It did answer a lot of my questions. I guess the only lingering one at the moment is, how do you diagnose deficiencies without being able to physically measure them? It sounds disconcertingly similar to this assumption that there's a serotonin imbalance, and the SSRIs will treat that, though it's actually impossible to measure serotonin in the first place. In his studies on schizophrenia, ing was able to measure the amounts of ascorbic acid that the patients eliminated and used that to guide his actions. This still helps a lot, as I was in an awful state this morning. I wrote to saying that it's been very upsetting quitting my membership at the gym, and I'm feeling very low a lot of the time, crying, and essentially questioning everything I'm doing. Looking at that site has once again reassured me that even though things are hard now, I'm making the right choices. Thanks as always for the support . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2006 Report Share Posted May 31, 2006 " but being up at 4 am, I had to try! " OMG! xx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2006 Report Share Posted May 31, 2006 Hi , There are several reasons for supps, and you are accurate that one is because modern food is depleted. Another is biochemical diversity. Some people simply need more of something than the " average " person. That's why the RDA is a bad joke. It's the minimum the gov figures a " normal " person needs to avoid a deficiency disease. Not the optimum for health, just enough to keep from being sick. One great experiment, done by ing, tested Vitamin C on guinea pigs. Guinea pigs, like people, can't make C in their bodies, so they have to eat it or they get scurvy. I don't have the exact details at hand...but this is roughly what they did. They took a bunch of Guinea pigs, and slowly reduced the C they got until they showed signs of scurvy, then they added the C back until the symptoms went away. They found that some guinea pigs could get by on as much as 20 times less than others before they got scurvy, or 20 times more than others to recover from it. So they demonstrated the wide " biochemical diversity " in guinea pigs...and given the fact that guinea pigs are a lot more homogenous...much more like each other than humans, they concluded that humans have even greater biochemical diversity. Later experiments with humans indicated the same thing. I feel things like fish oil are a " no brainer " , in a literal AND figurative sense. When dealing with people who only trust modern medicine for advice, I like to refer to Dr. Stoll, Director of Psychopharmacology at McClean Hospital and an associate prof at Harvard Med school. His book, " The Omega-3 Connection " makes an incredible case for taking fish oil for all sorts of modern maladies, from depression/bipolar to post partum depression to heart disease to arthritis. He recommends eating paleo, and also recommends a gram of C per day (which isn't much, but it's still over 10 times the RDA...and most docs are trained to say anything over 500mgs is wasted.) My best to you, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2006 Report Share Posted May 31, 2006 - thanks for both the site and the explanation. I help myself understand by thinking of it this way... Our bodies/brains are like our house. And there is a difference between simply repainting (maintaining) a well constructed room and actually repairing damage to a structurally damaged room (inner wall support, drywall, mudding and taping) prior to painting. Both rooms need to be maintained, both rooms need to be painted, but one is ready for the paint and the other needs much work before it is finally ready for the paint. The nutrients we take in help us to both maintain and repair our houses. Maybe not such a great analogy but one that makes sense to my brain (Can you tell we are in the process of redoing a bathroom??) and I am ready to finally take responsibility for the shape my (inner) house is in - thanks to you all for the support and insight- have a great day to all of you - kriss --- Skoog wrote: > , > > Here is an interesting site. > > www.orthomolecular.org > > You may have heard of Linus ing, the man who pioneered large > doses of vitamin C. He was also one of the pioneers in > orthomolecular medicine. > > Try going through this site. It may raise more questions, but I > know you like to understand the basis for things. > > The best way I can answer your question is to say that on this > list we aren't just dealing with the broad generalities of > deficient modern food that you mentioned, but with the severe > nutrient depletion of the people on this list. > > Speaking generally, many of us were not eating anywhere near a > balanced diet to start with. Some of us lived off sugar and white > carbs. Then our bodies were further depleted and imbalanced by > drugs. Underneath it all, many of us inherited nutritional > deficiencies from our parents. My mother lived off coffee, coke, > chocolate, and martinis. > > This can't be remedied solely by taking supplements in amounts > that would be adequate to protect a healthy person who had always > eaten the best possible diet under modern circumstances. > > will be able to explain this much better, but being up > at 4 am, I had to try! > > > > > --------------------------------- > New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC > and save big. it's okay to love your country right or wrong, but it's not right to be silent when your country is wrong - Bill Moyer's speech to graduating class of 2006 www.commondreams.org/views06/0522-35.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2006 Report Share Posted May 31, 2006 Quick answer: <<A number of people have asked me why, if we do a healthy eating regime like Paleo, do we need supplements? From what I can understand, it is because food produced by modern methods is less nutritious than it would have been thousands of years ago; and also, because those of us here have been damaged by drugs and (many of us) also by years of bad diet. Then again, I can also see why we supplement something like fish oil, because the modern diet tends to be deficient in omega-3s. Is this right?>> ** Correct -- almost. The word " produced " may not be entirely accurate here because we're talking about whole foods. To say how poorly and inappropriately animals are fed (they would not naturally choose grains) and the nutrient-deprived soils would be correct. For those who dismiss the nutrient-deprived soils, old USDA nutrient databases [1], posted several years ago by the USDA, show remarkable deterioration in nutrient content in foods over the past several decades.. You said: <<The question they follow up with is, why so many supplements, and why such high doses in some cases. Does that mean we are using these supplements medicinally as well?>> ** You're definitely using them medicinally. Why so many? Because our bodies require a variety of nutrients. Each one has a unique function and in combination, also have unique functions. Why high doses? Several reasons. -- There is a real skewed view in the UK on " high doses " . There isn't a nutrient one can take that they assimilate 100% of the dosage. For instance, one assimilates less than 2% of Vit B12. -- When one is physically challenged, it takes much more fuel to assist the body in accomplishing it's task of healing. -- Very ill children and the elderly who atre hospitalized are given IV nutrients. IV nutrients are highly assimilated, unlike oral dosing. -- Because it's been proven to work. You said: <<If we were aiming to mirror the nutrients our ancestors took in, then some of these amounts would be more than they had.>> ** You can't possibly mirror them. We use their cues to show a healthy, NATURAL diet. They ate game animals and ate nuts, berries, green foods, etc., fresh from its natural source. The food was just picked or just killed. You can only do this if you hunt and have a garden. These people were neither assaulted by every day living in contemporary society nor had poor diets filled with toxins for years prior to eating this way.[2] They also did not have to recover from the toxic effects of psychotropic drugs. You said: <<If anyone could explain I'd appreciate it. Whoever I introduce these ideas to seems to want me to defend my position, and I'm curious myself.>> ** Those who want you to defend your position seek only to discredit you. Those who are genuinely curious will ask in such a way that you will not be prompted to use the word " defend " when telling us about it. One final thought here -- most people live in their emotions and fears until they actively learn how to stop doing this. Could it be that your doubt about what you call " high dose " supplementing is fueling the way you told you you are feeling since you began the GOL vitamins? I'm asking this because in reality, these vitamins are food-based, and 3 of them a day doesn't amout to veyr much nutrient-wise, at all. The other possibilty is your B vitamins may have been higher than is comfortable for you (many people who have taken psychotropic drugs cannot take B vitamins in isolation without experiencing some discomfort). [1] In 1999 nutritionist Jack compared nutrient values in the current Department of Agriculture (USDA) handbook with those published in 1975. He discovered the decline in the number of minerals as well as the fact that cauliflower had 40 percent less vitamin C than it did in 1975. He wrote to the USDA for an explanation, and they declined to comment. The magazine Organic Gardening championed his effort and published an open letter to the USDA demanding that they answer Jack. When an answer did come it was full of bureaucratic doublespeak, mostly blaming unreliable methods of testing back in the dark ages of 1975. In March 2001, Life Extension Magazine also took up Jack's cause. With his help and the use of USDA nutrient tables( this time form 1963) the magazine ran its own comparison. The results? The vitamin C content of peppers has plummeted from 128mg to 89 mg. The pro-vitamin A in apples has dropped from 90 to 53 mg. Broccoli and collards (greens) have lost half their total pro-vitamin A content and cauliflower's vitamin C content has also declined by 50 percent. Besides being grown in depleted soil, the majority of today's fruit , vegetables and grains are stored for long periods of time before being sold. They may be stored for an even longer time after purchase before being eaten or used in cooking. One interesting study, which documented the historical decline in the mineral contents of fruits and vegetables between 1930 and 1987, came up with some startling conclusions (Br Food J,1997;99:207-11). Modern potatoes for instance, were shown to have 40 percent less potassium in them than potatoes grown 50 years earlier. Carrots contain nearly half the calcium they once did and 75 percent less magnesium. Tomatoes contain 90 percent less copper. Among fruits, apples contain two-thirds less iron than they once did, as do oranges and apricots. In general, across 20 common fruits and vegetables, the trend was that foods were less nutritious than they once were. [2] Twentieth-century life gave us a myriad of new and stunning technological advances that served to not only reduce our work load but to expose us to a whole host of new and potentialy harmful toxins. Virtually every day most of us are exposed to countless pollutants which cause the formation of damaging oxidants in our bodies. Auto exhaust, tobacco smoke, UV rays, pollution, preservatives, and food and water additives continually assault our bio-cellular systems and cause physiological damage. As a result, our risk of developing a degenerative disease is significantly increased. Moreover, our constant exposure to oxidizing agents can even accelerate premature tissue breakdown causing us to age more rapidly. Regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2006 Report Share Posted May 31, 2006 << It sounds disconcertingly similar to this assumption that there's a serotonin imbalance, and the SSRIs will treat that, though it's actually impossible to measure serotonin in the first place>> ** Not really. This was made up as a way to sell product. We know people are depleted in nutrients. One of the first ways this manifests is in their emotions. They get labeled " mentally ill " . All you have to do is look at people's diets to know they are nutrient-depleted. Do you that serotoni is manufactured from amino acids gotten through food? So if you're not eating thr proper foods you could indeed be lacking in serotonin. So does this mean that low serotonin causes endogenous depression? No, it means that poor diet causes endogenous depression. Regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2006 Report Share Posted June 1, 2006 <<Good morning early bird (Or is it late bird?)My body wants tojoin you in this schedule. It wants to go to bed at 8 p.m. and Ikeep coming wide awake at 4. If I obeyed, I wouldn't feel jet-laggedall the time. I also wouldn't have time in the evening to do anything or go anywhere and I'd rarely see my husband. It's a nastychoice to have to make but I choose the jet-lag. My light visor didremedy this and to be honest I'm missing it.>> So you want to go back to the quality of life you had before? , you're in withdrawal, your body has been through hell...if it wants to sleep, let it sleep. Healing occurs during sleep. The drugs damaged your body while you were taking them, and withdrawal damaged it more. This is not a permanent condition. Yes, going to bed early will impact on what you like doing with your life--for now. Not forever. You've made lots of changes and I respect your willingness to do so. But you still seem to be trying to bargain with this condition. Bargaining is a waste of energy. I'm trying to save you a lot of grief here. Just do what your body needs, let it heal, and don't fight it! It won't be long before you find that you can do more, better, than you had ever dreamed. Go back and read all of 's posts if you want some confirmation of this. She is particularly eloquent. Regards, Kimmoderator-- KIM DENISE FINE ARTwww.Kim.comFine Art Giftswww.CafePress.com/Kim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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