Re: Exercise and avoidance

[Guest guest]

I have posted a lot about the benefits of exercise on this site and also an my

PSSD site.

I can handle two miles of cycling in one go but not nore than that. My

depression/ anxiety means that I suffer a lot of adrenal exhaustion and if I

overdo the cycling I can get very ill indeed. I sometimes feel so high when I am

cycling, especialy when I put in a lot of energy, but I think my adrenal glands

get a real whacking and it can take me days to recover. My symtoms include

nervousness, hypochondria, fear, restlessness, and just feeling downright

horible. It's a real shame because vigorous exercise can powerfully repair a

damaged brain due to stress, depression, or drugs.

A scientist did research recently where he used a drug to selectively target and

destoy dopamine cell in monkey. They then developed parkinson disease but the

monkeys he encouraged to due exercise started to make a remarkable recovery. It

was when they were able to do vigorous exercise that their biggest recovery took

place. Brain scans showed that the dopamine cells wer fast replenishing

themselves.

I have lost the aricle now, but it was difficult to post because it was a PDF

file on the net with an enormous address.

My body seems to have got used to my two mile cycle ride, so that's something.

Kv

>

> It seems like a pretty universal prescription for anxiety and

> depression is physical exercise. I've been trying to incorporate more

> exercise into my life, particularly cycling. I have to say I don't

> exercise that hard but I go for half an hour to an hour most days.

> Walking is the activity when I can't cycle.

>

> So far I have gotten very little mood improvement from this. My energy

> isn't any better. And right after exercise, I can have a mood crash as

> easily as any other time. I recently finished a 25 mile cycle event

> and got a punch of anxiety/depression just a few minutes later. This

> baffles me and seems to go against conventional wisdom.

>

> Is it possible that using exercise to feel better is avoidant and

> therefore doomed to failure? Mood elevation is not the only reason I

> exercise. I also would like to lose some weight, and increase my

> energy and general health. But the top reason is to feel better

> mentally. Do I have to accept that exercising is not going to make me

> feel any better?

>

> Any thoughts or experience would be appreciated.

>

> Bruce

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Bruce,

Exercise alone won't cure any significant mood problems and checking after a

bout of strenuous exercise for any immediate improvement in your mental state is

what calls " mental quicksand: " guaranteed to produce the opposite

of the intended result.

What aerobic exercise does do is help overall mental functioning so that other

interventions you're trying such as ACT, mindfulness, individual therapy etc.

can have a better chance of working.

Hope that helps.

Jim

>

> It seems like a pretty universal prescription for anxiety and

> depression is physical exercise. I've been trying to incorporate more

> exercise into my life, particularly cycling. I have to say I don't

> exercise that hard but I go for half an hour to an hour most days.

> Walking is the activity when I can't cycle.

>

> So far I have gotten very little mood improvement from this. My energy

> isn't any better. And right after exercise, I can have a mood crash as

> easily as any other time. I recently finished a 25 mile cycle event

> and got a punch of anxiety/depression just a few minutes later. This

> baffles me and seems to go against conventional wisdom.

>

> Is it possible that using exercise to feel better is avoidant and

> therefore doomed to failure? Mood elevation is not the only reason I

> exercise. I also would like to lose some weight, and increase my

> energy and general health. But the top reason is to feel better

> mentally. Do I have to accept that exercising is not going to make me

> feel any better?

>

> Any thoughts or experience would be appreciated.

>

> Bruce

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Kavey and all,You might be interested in this article: http://harvardmagazine.com/2010/01/researchers-study-tai-chi-benefitsAs far as i know, there is a growing body of evidence that suggests that tai chi (or some variation, such a chi gong) is beneficial on many levels, and is an especially good alternative (or addition) for those who have limits in what they can do better know aerobic exercise.Also note the part on 'brain-plasticity"!There's actually a lot on this on the web, if you're interested in finding out more.Warm regards,Maarten> >> > It seems like a pretty universal prescription for anxiety and > > depression is physical exercise. I've been trying to incorporate more > > exercise into my life, particularly cycling. I have to say I don't > > exercise that hard but I go for half an hour to an hour most days. > > Walking is the activity when I can't cycle.> > > > So far I have gotten very little mood improvement from this. My energy > > isn't any better. And right after exercise, I can have a mood crash as > > easily as any other time. I recently finished a 25 mile cycle event > > and got a punch of anxiety/depression just a few minutes later. This > > baffles me and seems to go against conventional wisdom.> > > > Is it possible that using exercise to feel better is avoidant and > > therefore doomed to failure? Mood elevation is not the only reason I > > exercise. I also would like to lose some weight, and increase my > > energy and general health. But the top reason is to feel better > > mentally. Do I have to accept that exercising is not going to make me > > feel any better?> > > > Any thoughts or experience would be appreciated.> > > > Bruce> >>

[Guest guest]

I'm interested to hear more Randy - what do you see as the book's shortcomings?

Kate

>

> P.S. I have the Neff book too, but personally am not impressed &

> would not recommend it to anyone. These types of books are awfully

> hard to do. What I would recommend instead, for anyone interested in

> her work, is her web site; there she makes available MP3 guided

> meditations plus articles on self-compassion that provide the gist

> of what she has to say:

>

> http://www.self-compassion.org/

>

[Guest guest]

>

> I'm interested to hear more Randy - what do you see as

> the book's shortcomings?

Part of me doesn't want to be negative about " Self-Compassion, "

given that Neff is on the side of the angels. But on the

other hand, as a consumer of such books, I think it is only fair

that consumers advise each other of which books live up to their

promise, and which don't. So here goes with a critical review.

Neff's book actually has a couple of problems. I'll deal with each

of these in turn.

First, although she is a psychologist and a reseacher, most of her

research seems to consist of treading ground that others have

trodden before her - in particular, writers in the Buddhist

tradition. She does not seem to be breaking any new ground. And in

fact, what she has to say has already been said more cogently and

effectively by authors including Sharon Salzburg ( " Lovingkindness:

The Revolutionary Art of Happiness " ), Levine ( " Who Dies?: An

Investigation of Conscious Living and Conscious Dying " ), and even

the Dalai Lama in his little set of instructional books for

Westerners ( " How to Practice: The Way to a Meaningful Life, " etc.).

I would recommend any of these authors over her.

Second, the book is organized as a pastiche or perhaps a

smorgasboard of personal anecdotes, mentions of this or that tidbit

of research, and exercises you can do to help develop

self-compassion. In short it's a muddle with no central theme. The

exercises are OK, but other writers such as Levine and Salzburg have

already been there; for example, I find Levine's self-forgiveness

exercise far more powerful than any of the exercises in Neff's book.

And the anecdotes, although they are surely heartfelt, do not make

for compelling reading either. They just make the book sound like

about eight million other self-help books out there.

I don't mean to knock Neff. If she brings the idea of

self-compassion to X many people through her lectures, web site,

workshops, and this book, then that's a good thing. It's just that

writing a self-help book ain't easy, especially if you are not

really a writer and your research does not have a strong, compelling

arc to it.

Her book reminds me of another well-meant but poorly written effort

- " Curious? Discover the Missing Ingredient to a Fulfilling Life, "

by the psychologist Todd Kashdan. Kashdan has done some exciting

research in the area of positive psychology and emotion, and some of

this research overlaps with ACT. But as a book, " Curious " wanders

all over the place, just as Neff's book does, to the degree that

(quite ironically) it ends up being boring rather than inspiring. If

you work really hard, you can tease out bits of useful information

from it - which I'm sure you can do with the Neff book too. But it's

a tough job.

Both Neff and Kashdan could have used more help than they apparently

got in writing their books - advice about staying away from trite

formulas, presenting their research more clearly and centrally, etc.

But that's a another topic for another time.

- Randy

[Guest guest]

Wow!! Helpful stuff you have written here! I like your list of why anxiety says

something positive about me. I can really use that today. It was just one of

those days when I wondered if my interactions with and teaching of students was

" enough " . There are so many " what ifs " for me in a job where I don't know for

sure what the outcome of my efforts will be. I teach children with learning

difficulties and very often behavior difficulties go hand in hand with this.

There is no sure outcome and that is difficult for me since I tend to base my

worth on outcomes!!! So naturally this is going to cause me anxiety but it is so

easy and tempting to want to " fix " my thinking!!! Anyway I am copying and

pasting your list to a document so I can refer to it daily!!!

> > > >

> > > > That's an interesting reply. I thought endorphins were supposed to

> > > be

> > > > released by exercise that would lead to mood bump.

> > >

> > > Bruce,

> > >

> > > If you have time to answer, I am curious about something -

> > >

> > > ACT explicitly says it is not about " mood bump " or the search to

> > > " feel better " etc. But pretty much all your questions & comments

> > > to the list continue to be directed toward these goals.

> > >

> > > I am not judging (I hope) even though I may sound like it. Lord knows

> > > there are many days, including this one, that I would like to feel

> > > better.

> > > Woke with a head that feels like a potato sack stuffed with dirt, many

> > > doubts, etc.

> > >

> > > I am just wondering, though. I have a feeling that I had better not

> > > post

> > > any replies to your questions any more, because I always end up saying

> > > the same things - ACT says this and that, blah blah blah - and it does

> > > not seem to be what you are after.

> > >

> > > So ... what I am curious about is, why ACT, when ACT does not seem

> > > at all in line with what you are seeking? Is there some other

> > > component

> > > of ACT that does appeal to you that I am not getting?

> > >

> > > Thanks & sorry if this comes off strange - I really would like to

> > > know.

> > >

> > > - Randy

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>