RE: Re: Defusion Questions for a Beginner

[Guest guest]

I suffer from great anxiety and depression.   In an attempt to help myself, I have been trying CBT exercises on my own.  I was constantly starting and redoing the irrational thought to rational thought exercise.  I would add to my thoughts and then a few weeks later start doing the list again.

I would repeat my rational replacements over and over again as a mantra.  I was attempting to replace my thoughts or at least seed my brain with rational thoughts.What struck me suddenly that I looked at my list and it became very clear to me that I do not believe any of my irrational thoughts but I could not control the feelings and emotions.  My anxieties are too deeply ingrained in me.  They were auto responses.

For example, I have social anxiety and I know that people are not judging me constantly.  I know it.  However I can not stop the anxiety and fear that I get when I am around people.  

I understand from her and another therapist that this is the problem with CBT.  It doesn't work with deep seated issues that cause deep thoughts.  Deep thoughts of course being automatic and you and I don't see a choice until it is too late. 

I was also told by a 3rd therapist that CBT can do damage but it was in a group so I did not ask why.My therapist does understand me when I say that I don't see a switch.  She does not like CBT but I am treated at the VA and resources are limited.  They don't like people in long term therapy.  I was trying CBT as it was what she wanted to start with because it is what the VA wants, quick and out.

She realized it does not work with me and we started with weekly talk therapy sessions.  She is now working with me using an ACT approach.  She is learning ACT with me to help me so it is an interesting experience.

They also have an ACT Therapy group at my VA that I am part of.Thank you all for letting me participate in the group and I hope to contribute to it when I become more comfortable with myself and my knowledge.

Phil,

Your comment about what you said your therapist would say about your irrational (I prefer to call them unhelpful, since my mind is only trying to help) thoughts is interesting.

Personally, if my therapist said " you are making the choice to think that and that choice is making you feel that way, " I would challenge him/her about it.

In my experience, I have almost no control over the thoughts that pop into my head. Not only that, but I've found that wrestling with them and trying to evict them or replace them with what I think are better or more accurate ones has, for the most part, only made things worse.

The idea of being able to choose which thoughts to have doesn't make sense at a scientific level either. Before a thought can arise in my awareness, my brain has to construct it and get the neurons firing in the right patterns. All of this construction work happens below the surface, and I have no access to how it happens or any way to influence it. All I experience is the final, fully-formed thought, not the work that went into assembling it.

What I do have control over though, is whether I try to get rid of them or simply notice and make room for them and let them come and go. I've found that letting them be is easier and less painful than trying to control or evict them. Among other things, I can put the energy I save by not struggling with them to better use.

Cheers,

Stan

>

> >

> >

> >  Hi Phil - NO, I don't think you are dumb.

> >

> > The purpose of defusion is to help you LET GO of unhelpful thoughts and

> > keep moving towards a valued life. It sounds like you are struggling with

> > the thoughts instead of letting them go. Here are a few comments on things

> > you've said in your email:

> >

> > " negative or useless thoughts. " - a negative thought might be a useful

> > thought. The definition of a useful/helpful thought is a thought that helps

> > you live a valued life.

> > " writing down the fused thought and then rewriting the defused thought " -

> > defusion is not about changing the thought itself. It is about changing the

> > way you think about the thought. A defused thought is a thought that you

> > have LET GO of. A fused thought is one that you are struggling with. In the

> > process of " rewriting the defused thought " you may be prolonging the

> > struggle with it. Let the thought go as if it is a leaf on a stream; a cloud

> > passing by, etc.

> >

> > " Then I read and the defused thought and try to make it a replacement. " see

> > how this might be struggling with the thought? You can change how you think

> > about the thought but you probably can't change the thought itself.

> >

> > " do this exercise over and over but I am hoping there is something you

> > experts can explain to me that will make my time more useful. " To make your

> > time more useful, keep taking committed action towards a valued life rather

> > than doing defusion exercises over and over.

> >

> > DEFUSION is not about getting rid of unhelpful thoughts. I defuse from

> > several of the same thoughts many times a day by simply noticing them and

> > keeping moving towards my values. Some days it is exhausting, but it's

> > better than the alternative of getting stuck thinking about the thought. The

> > defusion exercise that works for me is to simply to say " Thank you mind " out

> > loud if possible. I have to actually thank my mind as opposed to thinking

> > about thanking my mind. Do you see the difference?

> >

> > I suggest you also use ACCEPTANCE with your thoughts. What you are

> > struggling with and what you need to accept is - your mind is very active

> > and loves to generate thoughts. You don't like that so you struggle with it.

> > Try chuckling to yourself when you notice that your mind is really cranking

> > out the thoughts. Or take some time to just sit and curiously watch your

> > mind generate the thoughts. Put each thought on an imaginary leaf floating

> > down an imaginary stream. When you find yourself floating down the stream on

> > a leaf with a thought, simply smile to yourself and get back to watching the

> > other thoughts go down the stream. This is a combination of defusion and

> > being in contact with the present.

> >

> > What did you think of the values and committed action sections of the book?

> > Do you have a pretty clear picture of where you want your life to go? How do

> > you spend your time each day - pursuing your values or struggling with your

> > thoughts and emotions?

> >

> > ACT is not designed to make your thoughts/anxiety/depression/etc go away.

> > It is designed to help you live a valued life in spite of these things by

> > helping you stop struggling with them. Most of the time my emotional

> > discomfort is mostly due to the struggle with my anxiety, rather than the

> > anxiety itself. ACT has taught me how to stop the struggle (for the most

> > part on most days). It was hard work at first and is still hard on some days

> > but my life is much richer even if I'm feeling like crap.

> >

> > ACT is not a brute force tool like a sledge hammer or a chain saw. Rather

> > it is a set of small tools used consistently.

> >

> > I suggest you go to the home page for this list serv

> > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/ and click on

> > ATTACHMENTS under MESSAGES in a box in the upper left hand corner of the

> > page. Go to the message dated April 2, 2011. There you will find the ACT

> > hexaflex and two other files you might find interesting - " Create Your Own

> > ACT Toolkit " and " Trainng Phase III " (discusses psychological flexing - a

> > method to help you integrate ACT into your real-time everyday life).

> >

> > Bill

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------

> > To: ACT_for_the_Public

> > From: phil.k.dawson@...

> > Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 23:36:39 -0700

> >

> > Subject: Defusion Questions for a Beginner

> >

> >

> >  I have completed " The Happiness Trap " and am now going back to do the

> > exercises.

> >

> > I am working on defusing my negative or useless thoughts.  I have tons of

> > them and an entire list from when I tried to  do irrational/rational thought

> > exercises for CBT.

> >

> > What I am doing now is writing down the fused thought and then rewriting

> > the defused thought.  Then I read and the defused thought and try to make it

> > a replacement.

> >

> > So for example I write down, " people think I am dumb " and then I write " I

> > am having the thought that people think I am dumb. "

> >

> > If this is what it takes I will do this exercise over and over but I am

> > hoping there is something you experts can explain to me that will make my

> > time more useful.

> >

> > Please help me defuse my thoughts using a practical method(s).  I am of the

> > belief I should defuse my thoughts in a mindful way but I am not quite sure

> > how to do that.  I am willing to do exercises but I am not sure I am

> > reaching the full level of my possible defusing power!

> >

> > I have been suffering greatly with anxiety, social anxiety, and deep

> > depression to the point that I begin to think about death.  I would also

> > like some tips on dealing with these moods or emotions in a healthy way.

> >

> > Currently, when I am to be observant and get out of my suffering  I am able

> > to try some mindfulness exercises and some iPhone apps to get me going again

> > when these  problems overwhelm me.

> >

> > Anyway, I have enjoyed reading many of the messages and I have learned that

> > many of you have considerable knowledge and wisdom to spread.

> >

> >

> > (wow writing this email is spiking my anxiety through the roof.   " I am

> > having the thought that they will think I am dumb " )

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

------------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

I suffer from great anxiety and depression.   In an attempt to help myself, I have been trying CBT exercises on my own.  I was constantly starting and redoing the irrational thought to rational thought exercise.  I would add to my thoughts and then a few weeks later start doing the list again.

I would repeat my rational replacements over and over again as a mantra.  I was attempting to replace my thoughts or at least seed my brain with rational thoughts.What struck me suddenly that I looked at my list and it became very clear to me that I do not believe any of my irrational thoughts but I could not control the feelings and emotions.  My anxieties are too deeply ingrained in me.  They were auto responses.

For example, I have social anxiety and I know that people are not judging me constantly.  I know it.  However I can not stop the anxiety and fear that I get when I am around people.  

I understand from her and another therapist that this is the problem with CBT.  It doesn't work with deep seated issues that cause deep thoughts.  Deep thoughts of course being automatic and you and I don't see a choice until it is too late. 

I was also told by a 3rd therapist that CBT can do damage but it was in a group so I did not ask why.My therapist does understand me when I say that I don't see a switch.  She does not like CBT but I am treated at the VA and resources are limited.  They don't like people in long term therapy.  I was trying CBT as it was what she wanted to start with because it is what the VA wants, quick and out.

She realized it does not work with me and we started with weekly talk therapy sessions.  She is now working with me using an ACT approach.  She is learning ACT with me to help me so it is an interesting experience.

They also have an ACT Therapy group at my VA that I am part of.Thank you all for letting me participate in the group and I hope to contribute to it when I become more comfortable with myself and my knowledge.

Phil,

Your comment about what you said your therapist would say about your irrational (I prefer to call them unhelpful, since my mind is only trying to help) thoughts is interesting.

Personally, if my therapist said " you are making the choice to think that and that choice is making you feel that way, " I would challenge him/her about it.

In my experience, I have almost no control over the thoughts that pop into my head. Not only that, but I've found that wrestling with them and trying to evict them or replace them with what I think are better or more accurate ones has, for the most part, only made things worse.

The idea of being able to choose which thoughts to have doesn't make sense at a scientific level either. Before a thought can arise in my awareness, my brain has to construct it and get the neurons firing in the right patterns. All of this construction work happens below the surface, and I have no access to how it happens or any way to influence it. All I experience is the final, fully-formed thought, not the work that went into assembling it.

What I do have control over though, is whether I try to get rid of them or simply notice and make room for them and let them come and go. I've found that letting them be is easier and less painful than trying to control or evict them. Among other things, I can put the energy I save by not struggling with them to better use.

Cheers,

Stan

>

> >

> >

> >  Hi Phil - NO, I don't think you are dumb.

> >

> > The purpose of defusion is to help you LET GO of unhelpful thoughts and

> > keep moving towards a valued life. It sounds like you are struggling with

> > the thoughts instead of letting them go. Here are a few comments on things

> > you've said in your email:

> >

> > " negative or useless thoughts. " - a negative thought might be a useful

> > thought. The definition of a useful/helpful thought is a thought that helps

> > you live a valued life.

> > " writing down the fused thought and then rewriting the defused thought " -

> > defusion is not about changing the thought itself. It is about changing the

> > way you think about the thought. A defused thought is a thought that you

> > have LET GO of. A fused thought is one that you are struggling with. In the

> > process of " rewriting the defused thought " you may be prolonging the

> > struggle with it. Let the thought go as if it is a leaf on a stream; a cloud

> > passing by, etc.

> >

> > " Then I read and the defused thought and try to make it a replacement. " see

> > how this might be struggling with the thought? You can change how you think

> > about the thought but you probably can't change the thought itself.

> >

> > " do this exercise over and over but I am hoping there is something you

> > experts can explain to me that will make my time more useful. " To make your

> > time more useful, keep taking committed action towards a valued life rather

> > than doing defusion exercises over and over.

> >

> > DEFUSION is not about getting rid of unhelpful thoughts. I defuse from

> > several of the same thoughts many times a day by simply noticing them and

> > keeping moving towards my values. Some days it is exhausting, but it's

> > better than the alternative of getting stuck thinking about the thought. The

> > defusion exercise that works for me is to simply to say " Thank you mind " out

> > loud if possible. I have to actually thank my mind as opposed to thinking

> > about thanking my mind. Do you see the difference?

> >

> > I suggest you also use ACCEPTANCE with your thoughts. What you are

> > struggling with and what you need to accept is - your mind is very active

> > and loves to generate thoughts. You don't like that so you struggle with it.

> > Try chuckling to yourself when you notice that your mind is really cranking

> > out the thoughts. Or take some time to just sit and curiously watch your

> > mind generate the thoughts. Put each thought on an imaginary leaf floating

> > down an imaginary stream. When you find yourself floating down the stream on

> > a leaf with a thought, simply smile to yourself and get back to watching the

> > other thoughts go down the stream. This is a combination of defusion and

> > being in contact with the present.

> >

> > What did you think of the values and committed action sections of the book?

> > Do you have a pretty clear picture of where you want your life to go? How do

> > you spend your time each day - pursuing your values or struggling with your

> > thoughts and emotions?

> >

> > ACT is not designed to make your thoughts/anxiety/depression/etc go away.

> > It is designed to help you live a valued life in spite of these things by

> > helping you stop struggling with them. Most of the time my emotional

> > discomfort is mostly due to the struggle with my anxiety, rather than the

> > anxiety itself. ACT has taught me how to stop the struggle (for the most

> > part on most days). It was hard work at first and is still hard on some days

> > but my life is much richer even if I'm feeling like crap.

> >

> > ACT is not a brute force tool like a sledge hammer or a chain saw. Rather

> > it is a set of small tools used consistently.

> >

> > I suggest you go to the home page for this list serv

> > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/ and click on

> > ATTACHMENTS under MESSAGES in a box in the upper left hand corner of the

> > page. Go to the message dated April 2, 2011. There you will find the ACT

> > hexaflex and two other files you might find interesting - " Create Your Own

> > ACT Toolkit " and " Trainng Phase III " (discusses psychological flexing - a

> > method to help you integrate ACT into your real-time everyday life).

> >

> > Bill

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------

> > To: ACT_for_the_Public

> > From: phil.k.dawson@...

> > Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 23:36:39 -0700

> >

> > Subject: Defusion Questions for a Beginner

> >

> >

> >  I have completed " The Happiness Trap " and am now going back to do the

> > exercises.

> >

> > I am working on defusing my negative or useless thoughts.  I have tons of

> > them and an entire list from when I tried to  do irrational/rational thought

> > exercises for CBT.

> >

> > What I am doing now is writing down the fused thought and then rewriting

> > the defused thought.  Then I read and the defused thought and try to make it

> > a replacement.

> >

> > So for example I write down, " people think I am dumb " and then I write " I

> > am having the thought that people think I am dumb. "

> >

> > If this is what it takes I will do this exercise over and over but I am

> > hoping there is something you experts can explain to me that will make my

> > time more useful.

> >

> > Please help me defuse my thoughts using a practical method(s).  I am of the

> > belief I should defuse my thoughts in a mindful way but I am not quite sure

> > how to do that.  I am willing to do exercises but I am not sure I am

> > reaching the full level of my possible defusing power!

> >

> > I have been suffering greatly with anxiety, social anxiety, and deep

> > depression to the point that I begin to think about death.  I would also

> > like some tips on dealing with these moods or emotions in a healthy way.

> >

> > Currently, when I am to be observant and get out of my suffering  I am able

> > to try some mindfulness exercises and some iPhone apps to get me going again

> > when these  problems overwhelm me.

> >

> > Anyway, I have enjoyed reading many of the messages and I have learned that

> > many of you have considerable knowledge and wisdom to spread.

> >

> >

> > (wow writing this email is spiking my anxiety through the roof.   " I am

> > having the thought that they will think I am dumb " )

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

------------------------------------

For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org

If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may

unsubscribe by sending an email to

ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links

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<*>

[Guest guest]

Stan - Open Focus Brain teaches us to use different combinations of attentive styles rather than get stuck with just "narrow-objective" - one that produces unhealthy high frequency brain waves if used too much. Very simplistically the technique is to "imagine the space between things" and to broaden the scope of what you "see" when you "look" at something. I use it as a "contact with the present" exercise but I can see how it might be considered an observing self exercise as well. I hone my observing self skills by "taking a mental step back" from what is going on in my life at any particular moment. In doing so I'm able to see and LET GO (DEFUSE from unuseful thoughts) and ACCEPT ( emotions, physical sensations, urges, etc). As you know there is lots of overlap between some of the six ACT core processes so it is not especially important to put exercises in the proper process, as long as they work to help us live a valued life.BillPS - I can tell when I have successfully changed my attentive style from narrow-objective to another style. I spontaneously yawn which indicates a shift in brain activity. I've gone to an Open Focus trainer and been hooked up to the brain wave equipment. He confirmed that I am able to shift my attentive style using the techniques. Cool stuff and quite useful for me as I struggle with "just sitting" meditation techniques.To: ACT_for_the_Public From: stealthymangos@...Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 05:56:32 +0000Subject: Re: Defusion Questions for a Beginner

,

Bill (in Message #15641) has just mentioned a book by Les Fehmi called Open Focus Brain you might find useful.

It's been a couple of years since I read it, but from what I recall, the exercises in the book and on the accompanying CD are a good way to experience the observing self.

Cheers,

Stan

> >

> >

> > You are on the right track Phil. Try to spend time just noticing your thoughts and noticing that you are noticing them. This will develop your ability to see your thoughts in real time and begin to defuse in real time. See chapter 23 in The Happiness Trap.

> > Bill

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Yes . Chapter 7 of Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life explains self as context. It's important that you understand the six core processes and use them to get the most out of ACT. To the extent that learning ACT is like learning a new language or how to play a musical instrument, just focusing on one or two ACT core processes is like just learning to speak a few words or play just a few notes. ACT is about living a valued life, not just defusing from unuseful thoughts or accepting feelings and emotions.BillTo: ACT_for_the_Public From: ksarahsarah_designs@...Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 04:29:28 +0000Subject: Re: Defusion Questions for a Beginner

<<Try to spend time just noticing your thoughts and noticing that you are noticing them.>>

is this what "self as context means" and the "observing self"....

i have heard these 2 words mentioned but not sure if this is what those words mean

>

>

> You are on the right track Phil. Try to spend time just noticing your thoughts and noticing that you are noticing them. This will develop your ability to see your thoughts in real time and begin to defuse in real time. See chapter 23 in The Happiness Trap.

> Bill

>

[Guest guest]

, when I got the Les Fehmi book, it came with a CD, which was great. When you're ready, I hope you can find the CD as well. Don't overload yourself with too many books right now - that would be my advice. Take as much time as you need on each step of your journey. I don't think anyone who suggests other books means to imply that you need to run out and read them right away; this list includes folks at different stages of the ACT journey. You are exactly where you need to be right now and moving forward at your own pace.

Helena

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 12:33:16 AMSubject: Re: Defusion Questions for a Beginner

thankyou for the email stan.i am currenetly working on the happiness trap and did a bit of get out of ur mind book...once i finish em both i will get the les fehmi one...to tell ya the truth stan, i have never been a reader, and i am really struglling with doing so much reading...the happiness trap i love so far, coz it is very easy to comprehend..thats another issue for me..i have a tough time understanding if it is not written in very simply language and sorta in a sotrybook form like the happiness trap...otherwise i just get lost in the vocabulalry...i wish there was more stuff in any sorta ac/dvd/audio form..but thanks againwasalaam>> ,> Bill (in Message #15641) has just mentioned a book by Les Fehmi called Open Focus Brain you might find useful.> > It's been a couple of years since I read it, but from what I recall, the exercises in the book and on the accompanying CD are a good way to experience the observing self.> > Cheers,> Stan>

[Guest guest]

I struggle with reading myself.Just be kind to yourself, and read for a few minutes at a time.  Be gentle and take it slowly.  

thankyou for the email stan.

i am currenetly working on the happiness trap and did a bit of get out of ur mind book...once i finish em both i will get the les fehmi one...to tell ya the truth stan, i have never been a reader, and i am really struglling with doing so much reading...the happiness trap i love so far, coz it is very easy to comprehend..thats another issue for me..i have a tough time understanding if it is not written in very simply language and sorta in a sotrybook form like the happiness trap...otherwise i just get lost in the vocabulalry...i wish there was more stuff in any sorta ac/dvd/audio form..

but thanks again

wasalaam

>

> ,

> Bill (in Message #15641) has just mentioned a book by Les Fehmi called Open Focus Brain you might find useful.

>

> It's been a couple of years since I read it, but from what I recall, the exercises in the book and on the accompanying CD are a good way to experience the observing self.

>

> Cheers,

> Stan

>

------------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Amen! StanGo to http://www.thehappinesstrap.com/free_resources for lots of free and inexpensive resources.BillTo: ACT_for_the_Public From: stealthymangos@...Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 12:49:24 +0000Subject: Re: Defusion Questions for a Beginner

,

Thank you for your feedback.

In my opinion, the secret of truly understanding ACT is in the doing, not the thinking. It's all too easy to fall into the trap of trying to understand the concepts of acceptance and willingness and values and commitment. Our mind loves trying to solve life's problems, and it will use anything it can get hold of to do it, including books about ACT.

My suggestion is that you put the theory to one side and do the exercises and see what happens. That way you will get the most valuable understanding of all: direct experience.

Books about ACT are like signposts pointing the way to where you want to go. You can study them all you want, but only leaving the sign behind and walking toward where they point will get you closer to where you want to go.

Cheers and lots of love,

Stan

> >

> > ,

> > Bill (in Message #15641) has just mentioned a book by Les Fehmi called Open Focus Brain you might find useful.

> >

> > It's been a couple of years since I read it, but from what I recall, the exercises in the book and on the accompanying CD are a good way to experience the observing self.

> >

> > Cheers,

> > Stan

> >

>