Re: Your story

[Guest guest]

Every time I've thought about jumping back into the thread it's moved on and

I've let it go. There are a couple of other posts that I still want to get back

to and respond to but for now....

VC do you really believe this and live it in your own life? Are you really

convinced that everything is neutral and that all pain and suffering are human

constructs? Do animals suffer? Do babies? Do they have " mental constructs "

that are the cause of their suffering?

I'm having difficulty imagining that you actually deep down believe this, that

it isn't in fact a mental construct you've erected to protect YOURSELF from

suffering.

I'm also having difficulty finding the right words! But I suppose this is an

example of the whole " drop your story " idea that irks me. Life and what happens

to people aren't just " stories " - we are real flesh and blood and we bleed and

we hurt!

Kate

> > > > >

> > > > > This dropped into my inbox:

> > > > >

> > > > > " I'm tired of hearing others say: " It's just my story. " I'm tired of

> > > spiritual teachers telling their students " to drop their story. " And I'm

> > > just as tired of us devaluing our story †" our personal history †"

> > > as I am of us overvaluing or overdramatizing it. What's needed is a deep

> > > honoring of our story, through which we mine from it what we need to

> > > become more integrated, more real, more at home with all that we are. "

> > > > >

> > > > > Augustus Masters

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > What do people think? I agree with him, the " drop your story " decree

> > > just grates on my nerves, it seems so dismissive and non-compassionate.

> > > And so simplistic, it's a catch phrase that inhibits and negates the

> > > search for insight.

> > > > >

> > > > > Kate

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

You are born. You die. In between, you experience life. Our brains are pre-wired for survival - to fight or flee from threatening events. Most human beings use language to describe such threats as "bad" and do not view them as "neutral."

The problem with the good/bad language arises when we label anything that feels like a threat as bad when there either is no threat or there is no longer a threat. In those cases, suffering is optional, or continuing to suffer is optional. When our minds go into overdrive and try to convince us that the way we are feeling or thinking is true, and that our ensuing discomfort is bad, that's when ACT teaches us to get our of our minds. That's when the word "bad" is inappropriate and incorrect. We delude ourselves and get caught up in the wordiness of our minds in an inappropriate and over-reactive response to a perceived threat when there is none.

So I don't agree that "good" and "bad" are an illusion, as an all-emcompassing statement. I recognize that there is a philosophy that holds that viewpoint; one that might re-title 's book When Things Go Terribly Horribly Wrong to When Neutral Events Happen.

Helena

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 2:52:28 AMSubject: Re: Your "story"

No need to take it personally as you are speaking in place of Helena...nobody is being attacked hereI didn't say she "imagined" anything...I said "good" and "bad" are an illusionRight there is an example of how the mind can tell a story...jumping ahead and attaching meaning and intention, taking it personally, and wanting to strike back, so to speak...I have shared very openly plenty of painful experiences on this board though out the years...I am thankful that she was able to be so open but I am not sure why it is even relevant to this discussion for me to somehow match it...I differentiate between the 2 though...one is via a physical experience in the world of form, the other is mental...suffering is pain we hold ontoThere is no "theory" here...one cannot say with any truth, that there is a "good" or "bad" in absolute terms, there simply IS...I cannot even count the numerous experiences in my life that I initially judged as something negative only to realize later, that it was an invaluable experience...> >> > Good and Bad, like other dualities, are merely mental > > constructs ... In the real world though, where things > > do not require their opposite in order for us to > > understand them, there is only What Is> > Come out, come out from behind your theory, please. People> are disclosing how they are really hurting, and you are > responding by telling them they are imagining it. > > Your message is not directed to me, but as it is going out> on a list where many people are listening, I would like to> ask a question or two. > > Namely, what is *your* experience of pain & suffering? Can > you share that experience as openly & bravely as Helena > shared hers? > > Can you share how your theory of "illusion" works for you, > in your own life? In the nitty gritty and not in the abstract? > > - Randy>

[Guest guest]

Where we get into suffering is when we attempt to dismiss our pain, isn't that

what ACT says? There was nothing nothing neutral about your experience

Helena!!!!!(IMHO) I can't remember which book, either Things, Happiness Trap, or

Get out of Your Life, but there was a story about someone trying to not feel the

pain of grief by using drugs and alcohol. The lady made progress when she let

herself feel the pain, experience the grief of losing loved ones. I admit there

are PLENTY of times when I judge events as " good " or " bad " when they are really

neither, they are just part of what happens in life, but that doesn't mean I can

feel neutral about them either. If I try to feel neutral about everything where

is the joy?

> > >

> > > Good and Bad, like other dualities, are merely mental

> > > constructs ... In the real world though, where things

> > > do not require their opposite in order for us to

> > > understand them, there is only What Is

> >

> > Come out, come out from behind your theory, please. People

> > are disclosing how they are really hurting, and you are

> > responding by telling them they are imagining it.

> >

> > Your message is not directed to me, but as it is going out

> > on a list where many people are listening, I would like to

> > ask a question or two.

> >

> > Namely, what is *your* experience of pain & suffering? Can

> > you share that experience as openly & bravely as Helena

> > shared hers?

> >

> > Can you share how your theory of " illusion " works for you,

> > in your own life? In the nitty gritty and not in the abstract?

> >

> > - Randy

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Vcferrara,

Re: " illusion " and " theory " etc. -

I really am speaking for myself - although coming back to this

thread this morning, I find that Kate & Helena have both said what

I was trying to say, only much better. But I will try again to

express myself, after which I will let the subject drop.

I know I sound a little irked. Well, I am a little irked. I've

been hearing the " it's all an illusion, just chill " language from

you for a while. I don't buy it but even so I am trying to

understand where you are coming from.

Maybe " theory " is the wrong word. Maybe " philosophy " or " point of

view " works better. I ask myself, what philosophy or point of view

are you espousing? And I find I don't know.

It's not ACT nor any other school of psychology that I recognize.

It seems like a form of relativism, but relativism is not something

normally adopted in psychology or psychotherapy - it is typically

reserved for philosophers arguing (in effect) about how many

philosophers can fit on the head of a pin. In other words it gets

discussed with great furor in books but has very little relevance

to how philosophers actually live their lives. It is of some use

in cultural studies - but even there it has limits. It is not a

ruling principle for anyone who wants to do practical work with

human beings.

And then again, sometimes you sound like you've been influenced

by nondualism - that's why I brought up the example of Buddhist monks

before. But I have never really read anything by nondualist or

Buddhist writers in which people's direct experiences of pain &

suffering - going hungry, suffering in time of war, political

oppression, etc. - is treated as casually as you treat it. As if

it were not really suffering but an error in point of view.

If such things are not suffering, why is the Dalai Lhama still

fighting as a political leader on behalf of the Tibetan people?

Etc., etc.,

As for why I ask about your own experience with suffering - I do

this because I doubt that you walk around in a sea of utter

relativism. Your life can't possibly resemble your philosophy -

even nihilists believe in a cause. So what's *your* cause? Even

nihilists have relationships with other people & feel sorrow

sometimes. So when do *you* feel sorrow?

Here's an anecdote that may illustrate what I am getting at: A zen

student is meeting with a zen master. The master says, " OK, what's

your insight for today? " And the student preens a little bit & then

says, " Master, everything is an illusion. " At which point the master

makes a motion like he is going to punch the student on the nose,

and the student ducks. The master says, " OK, then, if it's all

an illusion, why did you duck? "

I don't mean to put you on the spot personally. You don't have to

bare your soul or reveal secrets. I do mean to put you on the spot

in terms of your philosophy. That's why I ask my questions. Can you

show that what you are saying with illusion & relativism is livable

& relevant to the rest of us on this list, and not just an idealized

but unliveable philosophy?

I do believe your intent in offering your POV is kind. I'm just not

sure your POV is workable.

- Randy

[Guest guest]

HiI think we've gone towards looking at the theoretical and philosophical 'extremes' (it's miry out there: often an easy place to get stuck) rather than the practical 'centre'. I think the main point ACT makes is that whatever your story is, there is a very very very good chance that your mind is giving you a script of that story which is biased and laden with sensationalised and exaggerated claims of terribleness. It will pick and choose which "facts" to include in the account, and those facts themselves will be saturated by layers of narrative straight from Radio Doom. It will ignore all facts and narrative that suggests a contrary, more pleasant,

interpretation.But another person might look at the same events and write a very different account. What might that look like?Stan, followed by , both gave excellent descriptions of this and their posts are well worth re-reading. I had not heard of the exercise Stan described and I will - later on - go through my script and see how someone else might re-tell it. If I feel I learn anything from that which is helpful for others to see as an example, I will post it.Best wishes, xTo: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, 19 September 2011, 10:54Subject: Re: Your "story"Every time I've thought about jumping back into the thread it's moved on and I've let it go. There are a couple of other posts that I still want to get back to and respond to but for now....VC do you really believe this and live it in your own life? Are you really convinced that everything is neutral and that all pain and suffering are human constructs? Do animals suffer? Do babies? Do they have "mental constructs" that are the cause of their suffering? I'm having

difficulty imagining that you actually deep down believe this, that it isn't in fact a mental construct you've erected to protect YOURSELF from suffering. I'm also having difficulty finding the right words! But I suppose this is an example of the whole "drop your story" idea that irks me. Life and what happens to people aren't just "stories" - we are real flesh and blood and we bleed and we hurt! Kate > > > > > > > > > > This dropped into my inbox: > > > > > > > > > > "I'm tired of hearing others say: "It's just my story." I'm tired of > > > spiritual teachers telling their students "to drop their story." And I'm > > > just as tired of us devaluing our story â€" our personal history â€" > > > as I am of us overvaluing or overdramatizing it. What's needed is a deep > > > honoring of our story, through which we mine from it what we need to > > > become more integrated, more real, more at home with all that

we are." > > > > > > > > > > Augustus Masters > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What do people think? I agree with him, the "drop your story" decree > > > just grates on my nerves, it seems so dismissive and non-compassionate. > > > And so simplistic, it's a catch phrase that inhibits and negates the > > > search for insight. > > > > > > > > > > Kate > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>------------------------------------For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.orgIf you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may unsubscribe by sending an email to ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links<*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/<*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional<*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join (Yahoo! ID required)<*> To change settings via email: ACT_for_the_Public-digest ACT_for_the_Public-fullfeatured <*>

[Guest guest]

Stan, I do think that statement is true - "there's nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so". The statement does not say that thinking that something is bad is always unjustified, however. Rape would not be bad to the victim if she were dead when it happened and thus unable to think. But raping a corpse might be considered bad by her thinking relatives who are repulsed at the violation of her body. And how much or how long one suffers when bad things happen is somewhat within one's control. I say "somewhat" because not everyone has the tools to know how to reduce or eliminate suffering, and I think it is a learning (or unlearning) process.

The statement has more than one meaning, or more than one possible outcome when applied to human experience. Some people take it to mean that there is never a reason to think anything is good or bad and that such judgments exist only because we think them into existence. In the simplest sense, that is true but it is not the whole story; it is from our thought processes that we discern that something is good or bad - favorable to our survival or a threat to it. That's how our brains work, and that's a good thing. Yet there are zillions of times when thinking makes something bad when it really isn't; so there's that layer of meaning to acknowledge as well.

Helena

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2011 8:10:27 PMSubject: Re: Your "story"

Helena,Your post and other people's response to it has caused me to start rethinking something I've always to be be true, that as Hamlet said in my favourite and inexhaustibly rich Shakespeare play.While I spend a lot of my life in my head and think a lot (too much sometimes), I don't always think deeply or well. I often tell myself that my beliefs about the way the world works are tentative and subject to revision when I encounter new facts or insights from others. That is, I want to treat a belief like a good scientist treats a theory: as something that may or may not be true.So, I've got some deep thinking (and feeling) to do!Cheers,Stan > > > > > > > > This dropped into my inbox: > > > > > > > > "I'm tired of hearing others say: "It's just my story." I'm tired of > > spiritual teachers telling their students "to drop their story." And I'm > > just as tired of us devaluing our story â€" our personal history â€" > > as I am of us overvaluing or overdramatizing it. What's needed is a deep > > honoring of our story, through which we mine from it what we need to > > become more integrated, more real, more at home with all that we are." > > > > > > > > Augustus Masters > > > > > > > > > > > > What do people think? I agree with him, the "drop your story" decree > > just grates on my nerves, it seems so dismissive and non-compassionate. > > And so simplistic, it's a catch phrase that inhibits and negates the > > search for insight. > > > > > > > > Kate > > > > > > > > >>

[Guest guest]

Stan, I do think that statement is true - "there's nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so". The statement does not say that thinking that something is bad is always unjustified, however. Rape would not be bad to the victim if she were dead when it happened and thus unable to think. But raping a corpse might be considered bad by her thinking relatives who are repulsed at the violation of her body. And how much or how long one suffers when bad things happen is somewhat within one's control. I say "somewhat" because not everyone has the tools to know how to reduce or eliminate suffering, and I think it is a learning (or unlearning) process.

The statement has more than one meaning, or more than one possible outcome when applied to human experience. Some people take it to mean that there is never a reason to think anything is good or bad and that such judgments exist only because we think them into existence. In the simplest sense, that is true but it is not the whole story; it is from our thought processes that we discern that something is good or bad - favorable to our survival or a threat to it. That's how our brains work, and that's a good thing. Yet there are zillions of times when thinking makes something bad when it really isn't; so there's that layer of meaning to acknowledge as well.

Helena

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2011 8:10:27 PMSubject: Re: Your "story"

Helena,Your post and other people's response to it has caused me to start rethinking something I've always to be be true, that as Hamlet said in my favourite and inexhaustibly rich Shakespeare play.While I spend a lot of my life in my head and think a lot (too much sometimes), I don't always think deeply or well. I often tell myself that my beliefs about the way the world works are tentative and subject to revision when I encounter new facts or insights from others. That is, I want to treat a belief like a good scientist treats a theory: as something that may or may not be true.So, I've got some deep thinking (and feeling) to do!Cheers,Stan > > > > > > > > This dropped into my inbox: > > > > > > > > "I'm tired of hearing others say: "It's just my story." I'm tired of > > spiritual teachers telling their students "to drop their story." And I'm > > just as tired of us devaluing our story â€" our personal history â€" > > as I am of us overvaluing or overdramatizing it. What's needed is a deep > > honoring of our story, through which we mine from it what we need to > > become more integrated, more real, more at home with all that we are." > > > > > > > > Augustus Masters > > > > > > > > > > > > What do people think? I agree with him, the "drop your story" decree > > just grates on my nerves, it seems so dismissive and non-compassionate. > > And so simplistic, it's a catch phrase that inhibits and negates the > > search for insight. > > > > > > > > Kate > > > > > > > > >>

[Guest guest]

I've had similar weirdness here and there. It's good to hear from you many

times! :-)

> > > > >

> > > > > This dropped into my inbox:

> > > > >

> > > > > " I'm tired of hearing others say: " It's just my story. " I'm

> > > > > tired

> > > > > of

> > > > > spiritual teachers telling their students " to drop their story. "

> > > > > And

> > > > > I'm just as tired of us devaluing our story †" our personal

> > > > > history

> > > > > †"

> > > > > as I am of us overvaluing or overdramatizing it. What's needed

> > > > > is

> > > > > a

> > > > > deep honoring of our story, through which we mine from it what

> > > > > we

> > > > > need to become more integrated, more real, more at home with all

> > > > > that we are. "

> > > > >

> > > > > Augustus Masters

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > What do people think? I agree with him, the " drop your story "

> > > > > decree

> > > > > just grates on my nerves, it seems so dismissive and

> > > > > non-compassionate. And so simplistic, it's a catch phrase that

> > > > > inhibits and negates the search for insight.

> > > > >

> > > > > Kate

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I've had similar weirdness here and there. It's good to hear from you many

times! :-)

> > > > >

> > > > > This dropped into my inbox:

> > > > >

> > > > > " I'm tired of hearing others say: " It's just my story. " I'm

> > > > > tired

> > > > > of

> > > > > spiritual teachers telling their students " to drop their story. "

> > > > > And

> > > > > I'm just as tired of us devaluing our story †" our personal

> > > > > history

> > > > > †"

> > > > > as I am of us overvaluing or overdramatizing it. What's needed

> > > > > is

> > > > > a

> > > > > deep honoring of our story, through which we mine from it what

> > > > > we

> > > > > need to become more integrated, more real, more at home with all

> > > > > that we are. "

> > > > >

> > > > > Augustus Masters

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > What do people think? I agree with him, the " drop your story "

> > > > > decree

> > > > > just grates on my nerves, it seems so dismissive and

> > > > > non-compassionate. And so simplistic, it's a catch phrase that

> > > > > inhibits and negates the search for insight.

> > > > >

> > > > > Kate

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

A Holocaust survivor told me, "I would never give up the lessons I learned through that time. But I would never choose to go through it again."She may have worded it differently - it's been a few years. But what I learned from that is that there is good in everything. Nobody would choose suffering, but when it comes we can take it as an opportunity. Sender: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 14:49:52 +0000 (UTC)To: ACT for the Public<ACT_for_the_Public >ReplyTo: ACT_for_the_Public Subject: Re: Re: Your "story"Stan, I do think that statement is true - "there's nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so". The statement does not say that thinking that something is bad is always unjustified, however. Rape would not be bad to the victim if she were dead when it happened and thus unable to think. But raping a corpse might be considered bad by her thinking relatives who are repulsed at the violation of her body. And how much or how long one suffers when bad things happen is somewhat within one's control. I say "somewhat" because not everyone has the tools to know how to reduce or eliminate suffering, and I think it is a learning (or unlearning) process. The statement has more than one meaning, or more than one possible outcome when applied to human experience. Some people take it to mean that there is never a reason to think anything is good or bad and that such judgments exist only because we think them into existence. In the simplest sense, that is true but it is not the whole story; it is from our thought processes that we discern that something is good or bad - favorable to our survival or a threat to it. That's how our brains work, and that's a good thing. Yet there are zillions of times when thinking makes something bad when it really isn't; so there's that layer of meaning to acknowledge as well. HelenaTo: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2011 8:10:27 PMSubject: Re: Your "story" Helena,Your post and other people's response to it has caused me to start rethinking something I've always to be be true, that as Hamlet said in my favourite and inexhaustibly rich Shakespeare play.While I spend a lot of my life in my head and think a lot (too much sometimes), I don't always think deeply or well. I often tell myself that my beliefs about the way the world works are tentative and subject to revision when I encounter new facts or insights from others. That is, I want to treat a belief like a good scientist treats a theory: as something that may or may not be true.So, I've got some deep thinking (and feeling) to do!Cheers,Stan > > > > > > > > This dropped into my inbox: > > > > > > > > "I'm tired of hearing others say: "It's just my story." I'm tired of > > spiritual teachers telling their students "to drop their story." And I'm > > just as tired of us devaluing our story â€" our personal history â€" > > as I am of us overvaluing or overdramatizing it. What's needed is a deep > > honoring of our story, through which we mine from it what we need to > > become more integrated, more real, more at home with all that we are." > > > > > > > > Augustus Masters > > > > > > > > > > > > What do people think? I agree with him, the "drop your story" decree > > just grates on my nerves, it seems so dismissive and non-compassionate. > > And so simplistic, it's a catch phrase that inhibits and negates the > > search for insight. > > > > > > > > Kate > > > > > > > > >>

[Guest guest]

A Holocaust survivor told me, "I would never give up the lessons I learned through that time. But I would never choose to go through it again."She may have worded it differently - it's been a few years. But what I learned from that is that there is good in everything. Nobody would choose suffering, but when it comes we can take it as an opportunity. Sender: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 14:49:52 +0000 (UTC)To: ACT for the Public<ACT_for_the_Public >ReplyTo: ACT_for_the_Public Subject: Re: Re: Your "story"Stan, I do think that statement is true - "there's nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so". The statement does not say that thinking that something is bad is always unjustified, however. Rape would not be bad to the victim if she were dead when it happened and thus unable to think. But raping a corpse might be considered bad by her thinking relatives who are repulsed at the violation of her body. And how much or how long one suffers when bad things happen is somewhat within one's control. I say "somewhat" because not everyone has the tools to know how to reduce or eliminate suffering, and I think it is a learning (or unlearning) process. The statement has more than one meaning, or more than one possible outcome when applied to human experience. Some people take it to mean that there is never a reason to think anything is good or bad and that such judgments exist only because we think them into existence. In the simplest sense, that is true but it is not the whole story; it is from our thought processes that we discern that something is good or bad - favorable to our survival or a threat to it. That's how our brains work, and that's a good thing. Yet there are zillions of times when thinking makes something bad when it really isn't; so there's that layer of meaning to acknowledge as well. HelenaTo: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2011 8:10:27 PMSubject: Re: Your "story" Helena,Your post and other people's response to it has caused me to start rethinking something I've always to be be true, that as Hamlet said in my favourite and inexhaustibly rich Shakespeare play.While I spend a lot of my life in my head and think a lot (too much sometimes), I don't always think deeply or well. I often tell myself that my beliefs about the way the world works are tentative and subject to revision when I encounter new facts or insights from others. That is, I want to treat a belief like a good scientist treats a theory: as something that may or may not be true.So, I've got some deep thinking (and feeling) to do!Cheers,Stan > > > > > > > > This dropped into my inbox: > > > > > > > > "I'm tired of hearing others say: "It's just my story." I'm tired of > > spiritual teachers telling their students "to drop their story." And I'm > > just as tired of us devaluing our story â€" our personal history â€" > > as I am of us overvaluing or overdramatizing it. What's needed is a deep > > honoring of our story, through which we mine from it what we need to > > become more integrated, more real, more at home with all that we are." > > > > > > > > Augustus Masters > > > > > > > > > > > > What do people think? I agree with him, the "drop your story" decree > > just grates on my nerves, it seems so dismissive and non-compassionate. > > And so simplistic, it's a catch phrase that inhibits and negates the > > search for insight. > > > > > > > > Kate > > > > > > > > >>

[Guest guest]

I can see how the puzzle of my life came together piece by piece, even though it hurt like hell when some of the pieces were inserted. I would not change what is now the portrait of my life ... to be continued.

Helena

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 9:38:48 PMSubject: Re: Re: Your "story"

A Holocaust survivor told me, "I would never give up the lessons I learned through that time. But I would never choose to go through it again."She may have worded it differently - it's been a few years. But what I learned from that is that there is good in everything. Nobody would choose suffering, but when it comes we can take it as an opportunity.

Sender: ACT_for_the_Public

Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 14:49:52 +0000 (UTC)

To: ACT for the Public<ACT_for_the_Public >

ReplyTo: ACT_for_the_Public

Subject: Re: Re: Your "story"

Stan, I do think that statement is true - "there's nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so". The statement does not say that thinking that something is bad is always unjustified, however. Rape would not be bad to the victim if she were dead when it happened and thus unable to think. But raping a corpse might be considered bad by her thinking relatives who are repulsed at the violation of her body. And how much or how long one suffers when bad things happen is somewhat within one's control. I say "somewhat" because not everyone has the tools to know how to reduce or eliminate suffering, and I think it is a learning (or unlearning) process.

The statement has more than one meaning, or more than one possible outcome when applied to human experience. Some people take it to mean that there is never a reason to think anything is good or bad and that such judgments exist only because we think them into existence. In the simplest sense, that is true but it is not the whole story; it is from our thought processes that we discern that something is good or bad - favorable to our survival or a threat to it. That's how our brains work, and that's a good thing. Yet there are zillions of times when thinking makes something bad when it really isn't; so there's that layer of meaning to acknowledge as well.

Helena

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2011 8:10:27 PMSubject: Re: Your "story"

Helena,Your post and other people's response to it has caused me to start rethinking something I've always to be be true, that as Hamlet said in my favourite and inexhaustibly rich Shakespeare play.While I spend a lot of my life in my head and think a lot (too much sometimes), I don't always think deeply or well. I often tell myself that my beliefs about the way the world works are tentative and subject to revision when I encounter new facts or insights from others. That is, I want to treat a belief like a good scientist treats a theory: as something that may or may not be true.So, I've got some deep thinking (and feeling) to do!Cheers,Stan > > > > > > > > This dropped into my inbox: > > > > > > > > "I'm tired of hearing others say: "It's just my story." I'm tired of > > spiritual teachers telling their students "to drop their story." And I'm > > just as tired of us devaluing our story â€" our personal history â€" > > as I am of us overvaluing or overdramatizing it. What's needed is a deep > > honoring of our story, through which we mine from it what we need to > > become more integrated, more real, more at home with all that we are." > > > > > > > > Augustus Masters > > > > > > > > > > > > What do people think? I agree with him, the "drop your story" decree > > just grates on my nerves, it seems so dismissive and non-compassionate. > > And so simplistic, it's a catch phrase that inhibits and negates the > > search for insight. > > > > > > > > Kate > > > > > > > > >>

[Guest guest]

Hi Terry,

Thank you for your kind words, I hope to meet you as well.

You put me on a new track:

Unfortunately no nice memories whatsoever from my kindergarten. It was all shock and terror coupled with my behavior pattern of mental and physical isolation.

However, however...

I think I do get what you're aiming for. What was there also for me, which was the beautiful part - was my perservance. Wanting to stay alive. "uh, uh, uh uh, Staying alive, staying alive" (the BeGees). I hear the song. The stubborness of that little kid that is really me today. I still have that stubborness. I haven't quit. Maybe that stubborness is a witness to the possibility that I'm more than my pretty tragic upbringing? (self as context perhaps) No matter what I was subject to - and it was a lot - I didn't quit. I continued to struggle to fight, to climb, to walk, to become or remain Henrik.

What I didn't do then, which I should have, was I didn't ask for help. I never told anyone. That is something I do differently today. Asking for help has made all the difference. Continuosly building a network of people with whom I can have an open and mutually supportive relationship is very close to the top of my list of values. On the very top, though, is still the same beat... "uh, uh, uh, uh Staying alive, staying alive". I don' t mean that it's frantic, it's more of a slow, steady but strong beat.

Henrik

Hi Henrik, Thanks so much for this. You are so very kind to reply to everyone here with such thoughtful, full empathic responses. I hope one day to meet you in person.I've been thinking about this thread and it's so wonderful..The truth is I had a lot of fear then and do now and yet...yet..I forgot to mention that there were many days I loved being in kindergarten and this in itself is really something that the re-writing your story exercise, if approached with gentle curiosity calls forth..Like just how exciting, new it all was, to be with away from my home for so many hours, with all these new people!And I remember the day we all made butter by shaking the cream and passing it around for what seemed like an eternity, and then the taste..om my...the smell and the taste of that fresh butter..I don't think I've yet found it again!And I remember the boy I had a deep crush on... all that longing, even at age 5..And I remember the new best friend I made who would be a close companion for years.And I remember the teacher, Miss Rudin (we called the unmarried ones "Miss") was rather pretty and kind and I didn't quite understand even then what interested her in being there with all of us kids, squirming so as we did, wriggling around with energy. And that's why I love the re-write the story of your life exercise. Not like the painful stuff didn't happen. It most certainly did. And it does keep coming.But I begin to appreciate the larger picture, and more colors emerge.And that's just a good thing, you know?peace,Terry> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Steve, thanks for telling more about that chapter in the> > > > > book of your life! Can I say that the new chapter sounds> > > > > exciting!?> > > > > (the> > > > > 63 year old)> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Your story catapulted me into a dilemma - a runaway fusion:> > > > > Maybe> > > > > some of you would like to give me some input? Sorry for the long> > > > > post.> > > > >> > > > > Recently, I have been promoted - i.e. I have a little more> > > > > responsibility at work than before.> > > > >> > > > > This small promotion has changed how I see work in ways that are> > > > > not> > > > > according to my values. What I mean is I take too tooo much> > > > > responsibility for the whole organization, for my colleagues ...> > > > > My> > > > > boss> > > > > even warned me of this when she asked me- she said that I would> > > > > need> > > > > help not taking this role too seriously. My values at work -> > > > > that> > > > > where> > > > > pretty clear before I was asked - suddenly became "non> > > > > existent".> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > The story that could be attached to this could be one of many> > > > > but> > > > > why> > > > > not start with:> > > > >> > > > > I was a 3,5 years old swedish speaking kid, going to an all> > > > > french> > > > > kindergarten (We where living in France) going to the smaller> > > > > kids> > > > > section of the school where things where both soft but also> > > > > barren).> > > > > One> > > > > day, out of the blue I was moved up to the older kids section> > > > > who> > > > > where> > > > > 3 - 5 years old. You could say I was "promoted". I think that> > > > > that> > > > > change contributed to me gradually stopping being "Henrik" and> > > > > psychologically becoming an automaton.> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Sorry folks... the next part is heavy...> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > That promotion took away everything joyful and added fear,> > > > > screaming> > > > > from the sadistic teacher, discipline, sitting still all day,> > > > > homework,> > > > > getting locked in, not being allowed to talk, not being allowed> > > > > to> > > > > go> > > > > the bathroom, no liberty. The "upside" was learning to count,> > > > > read> > > > > and> > > > > write. As I was swedish, I didn't get what is was all about.> > > > > There> > > > > was> > > > > no upside for me, unfortunately. I didn't learn either reading,> > > > > writing> > > > > or counting to 100. I was there for 1,5 years. I was always> > > > > reminded> > > > > that I was the slowest/most stupid (but most silent which was a> > > > > mitigating circumstance) pupil in the class, and was punished> > > > > and> > > > > publicly mocked for it.> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > ...> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > I think this story and others still influences me in many ways> > > > > ---> > > > >> > > > > -I often hold back from taking initiatives that could put me in> > > > > situations where I'm challenged in unexpected ways.> > > > >> > > > > -I keep to myself inside my head (I found safety in my head when> > > > > the> > > > > teacher was screaming and when I didn't understand what they> > > > > where> > > > > all> > > > > talking about). I have a limited social life and an almost non> > > > > existent> > > > > romantic life.> > > > >> > > > > -When in new, challenging situations - my back becomes rigid and> > > > > straight and I loose myself to a kind of automaton with limited> > > > > access> > > > > to any kind of thinking process - trying to act the part of a> > > > > "super> > > > > person".> > > > >> > > > > -etc...> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Acceptance and defusion:> > > > >> > > > > I need to accept this story and defuse from it, all the while> > > > > carrying> > > > > this little kid with me - the way you often model it, Steve.> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Values:> > > > >> > > > > While doing this, I need to find myself - Henrik - and see what> > > > > kind> > > > > of> > > > > person I want to be at work. What can I change in the way I work> > > > > so> > > > > that> > > > > it's fun to go to work? The world is changing faster and faster,> > > > > with> > > > > more and more challenges - so I need to change with it - all the> > > > > while> > > > > remaining Henrik. "Henrik" is a concept that is hard for me to> > > > > maintain.> > > > > Is it even useful as it could be moving deeper into self as> > > > > concept?> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Committed action:> > > > >> > > > > Perhaps "Henrik" is about:> > > > >> > > > > -finding smart ways and short cuts to do things that make my> > > > > life> > > > > better.> > > > >> > > > > -joking> > > > >> > > > > -being lazy> > > > >> > > > > -opening up my heart to my colleagues, friends and clients> > > > >> > > > > -helping them to open up their hearts> > > > >> > > > > -trying to slow things down when the "automaton" is taking over> > > > > so> > > > > that> > > > > I can go back to acceptance.> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Any comments are welcome,> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > With appreciation> > > > >> > > > > Henrik> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >>

[Guest guest]

Hi Henrik,

What you went through was wrong, it was really hell and it's very good you are

now honoring that and not sugar-coating any of it. That feels heroic to me..the

part of you that demands to witness and be honest about what happened to you as

a young child. You are standing guard of your little boy, giving him voice and

this is very moving.

I have a lot to learn from you. This reaching out that you do now, despite

having been betrayed so early on and so profoundly. Or maybe because of it(?).

There is more I want to say about asking for help, a lot more.

But for now, let me quickly say I think you really hit upon something big here.

Not like as a child you would have known to even ask. There is as you likely

know the learned helplessness that typically happens when we're traumatized and

neglected or abused..a slow shutting down and a strong sense that nothing will

make a difference...so I'm sure you know that as a child, it probably never even

occurred to you to even ask..and if it did, it's likely you quickly dismissed

that idea, because it probably wasn't safe and you probably got really

discouraged really fast.

But as adults we have a lot to learn about this whole reaching out to others

process, and also more specifically, reaching out and asking others for specific

kinds of help.

I have a lot of stuff around this..I think it has to do with my attachment to

outcome, and I suffer to the degree my mind attends and feeds and gets

distracted to this (how to ask, what did they say, am I doing this right?)

versus staying present with what is I am needing and not trying to defend it

like it's something inherently wrong.

More later..thanks so much for this conversation.

You are an inspiration to me!

Warm Regards,

Terry

> > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >> Steve, thanks for telling more about that chapter in the

> > > > > > > book of your life! Can I say that the new chapter sounds

> > > > > > > exciting!?

> > > > > > > (the

> > > > > > > 63 year old)

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Your story catapulted me into a dilemma - a runaway fusion:

> > > > > > > Maybe

> > > > > > > some of you would like to give me some input? Sorry for the

> > > > > > > long

> > > > > > > post.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Recently, I have been promoted - i.e. I have a little more

> > > > > > > responsibility at work than before.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This small promotion has changed how I see work in ways that

> > > > > > > are

> > > > > > > not

> > > > > > > according to my values. What I mean is I take too tooo much

> > > > > > > responsibility for the whole organization, for my colleagues

> > > > > > > ...

> > > > > > > My

> > > > > > > boss

> > > > > > > even warned me of this when she asked me- she said that I

> > > > > > > would

> > > > > > > need

> > > > > > > help not taking this role too seriously. My values at work -

> > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > where

> > > > > > > pretty clear before I was asked - suddenly became " non

> > > > > > > existent " .

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The story that could be attached to this could be one of

> > > > > > > many

> > > > > > > but

> > > > > > > why

> > > > > > > not start with:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I was a 3,5 years old swedish speaking kid, going to an all

> > > > > > > french

> > > > > > > kindergarten (We where living in France) going to the

> > > > > > > smaller

> > > > > > > kids

> > > > > > > section of the school where things where both soft but also

> > > > > > > barren).

> > > > > > > One

> > > > > > > day, out of the blue I was moved up to the older kids

> > > > > > > section

> > > > > > > who

> > > > > > > where

> > > > > > > 3 - 5 years old. You could say I was " promoted " . I think

> > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > change contributed to me gradually stopping being " Henrik "

> > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > psychologically becoming an automaton.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Sorry folks... the next part is heavy...

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > That promotion took away everything joyful and added fear,

> > > > > > > screaming

> > > > > > > from the sadistic teacher, discipline, sitting still all

> > > > > > > day,

> > > > > > > homework,

> > > > > > > getting locked in, not being allowed to talk, not being

> > > > > > > allowed

> > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > go

> > > > > > > the bathroom, no liberty. The " upside " was learning to

> > > > > > > count,

> > > > > > > read

> > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > write. As I was swedish, I didn't get what is was all about.

> > > > > > > There

> > > > > > > was

> > > > > > > no upside for me, unfortunately. I didn't learn either

> > > > > > > reading,

> > > > > > > writing

> > > > > > > or counting to 100. I was there for 1,5 years. I was always

> > > > > > > reminded

> > > > > > > that I was the slowest/most stupid (but most silent which

> > > > > > > was a

> > > > > > > mitigating circumstance) pupil in the class, and was

> > > > > > > punished

> > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > publicly mocked for it.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ...

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I think this story and others still influences me in many

> > > > > > > ways

> > > > > > > ---

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > -I often hold back from taking initiatives that could put me

> > > > > > > in

> > > > > > > situations where I'm challenged in unexpected ways.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > -I keep to myself inside my head (I found safety in my head

> > > > > > > when

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > teacher was screaming and when I didn't understand what they

> > > > > > > where

> > > > > > > all

> > > > > > > talking about). I have a limited social life and an almost

> > > > > > > non

> > > > > > > existent

> > > > > > > romantic life.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > -When in new, challenging situations - my back becomes rigid

> > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > straight and I loose myself to a kind of automaton with

> > > > > > > limited

> > > > > > > access

> > > > > > > to any kind of thinking process - trying to act the part of

> > > > > > > a

> > > > > > > " super

> > > > > > > person " .

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > -etc...

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Acceptance and defusion:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I need to accept this story and defuse from it, all the

> > > > > > > while

> > > > > > > carrying

> > > > > > > this little kid with me - the way you often model it, Steve.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Values:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > While doing this, I need to find myself - Henrik - and see

> > > > > > > what

> > > > > > > kind

> > > > > > > of

> > > > > > > person I want to be at work. What can I change in the way I

> > > > > > > work

> > > > > > > so

> > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > it's fun to go to work? The world is changing faster and

> > > > > > > faster,

> > > > > > > with

> > > > > > > more and more challenges - so I need to change with it - all

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > while

> > > > > > > remaining Henrik. " Henrik " is a concept that is hard for me

> > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > maintain.

> > > > > > > Is it even useful as it could be moving deeper into self as

> > > > > > > concept?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Committed action:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Perhaps " Henrik " is about:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > -finding smart ways and short cuts to do things that make my

> > > > > > > life

> > > > > > > better.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > -joking

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > -being lazy

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > -opening up my heart to my colleagues, friends and clients

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > -helping them to open up their hearts

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > -trying to slow things down when the " automaton " is taking

> > > > > > > over

> > > > > > > so

> > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > I can go back to acceptance.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Any comments are welcome,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > With appreciation

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Henrik

> > > > > > >>

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Henrik,

What you went through was wrong, it was really hell and it's very good you are

now honoring that and not sugar-coating any of it. That feels heroic to me..the

part of you that demands to witness and be honest about what happened to you as

a young child. You are standing guard of your little boy, giving him voice and

this is very moving.

I have a lot to learn from you. This reaching out that you do now, despite

having been betrayed so early on and so profoundly. Or maybe because of it(?).

There is more I want to say about asking for help, a lot more.

But for now, let me quickly say I think you really hit upon something big here.

Not like as a child you would have known to even ask. There is as you likely

know the learned helplessness that typically happens when we're traumatized and

neglected or abused..a slow shutting down and a strong sense that nothing will

make a difference...so I'm sure you know that as a child, it probably never even

occurred to you to even ask..and if it did, it's likely you quickly dismissed

that idea, because it probably wasn't safe and you probably got really

discouraged really fast.

But as adults we have a lot to learn about this whole reaching out to others

process, and also more specifically, reaching out and asking others for specific

kinds of help.

I have a lot of stuff around this..I think it has to do with my attachment to

outcome, and I suffer to the degree my mind attends and feeds and gets

distracted to this (how to ask, what did they say, am I doing this right?)

versus staying present with what is I am needing and not trying to defend it

like it's something inherently wrong.

More later..thanks so much for this conversation.

You are an inspiration to me!

Warm Regards,

Terry

> > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >> Steve, thanks for telling more about that chapter in the

> > > > > > > book of your life! Can I say that the new chapter sounds

> > > > > > > exciting!?

> > > > > > > (the

> > > > > > > 63 year old)

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Your story catapulted me into a dilemma - a runaway fusion:

> > > > > > > Maybe

> > > > > > > some of you would like to give me some input? Sorry for the

> > > > > > > long

> > > > > > > post.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Recently, I have been promoted - i.e. I have a little more

> > > > > > > responsibility at work than before.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This small promotion has changed how I see work in ways that

> > > > > > > are

> > > > > > > not

> > > > > > > according to my values. What I mean is I take too tooo much

> > > > > > > responsibility for the whole organization, for my colleagues

> > > > > > > ...

> > > > > > > My

> > > > > > > boss

> > > > > > > even warned me of this when she asked me- she said that I

> > > > > > > would

> > > > > > > need

> > > > > > > help not taking this role too seriously. My values at work -

> > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > where

> > > > > > > pretty clear before I was asked - suddenly became " non

> > > > > > > existent " .

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The story that could be attached to this could be one of

> > > > > > > many

> > > > > > > but

> > > > > > > why

> > > > > > > not start with:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I was a 3,5 years old swedish speaking kid, going to an all

> > > > > > > french

> > > > > > > kindergarten (We where living in France) going to the

> > > > > > > smaller

> > > > > > > kids

> > > > > > > section of the school where things where both soft but also

> > > > > > > barren).

> > > > > > > One

> > > > > > > day, out of the blue I was moved up to the older kids

> > > > > > > section

> > > > > > > who

> > > > > > > where

> > > > > > > 3 - 5 years old. You could say I was " promoted " . I think

> > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > change contributed to me gradually stopping being " Henrik "

> > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > psychologically becoming an automaton.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Sorry folks... the next part is heavy...

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > That promotion took away everything joyful and added fear,

> > > > > > > screaming

> > > > > > > from the sadistic teacher, discipline, sitting still all

> > > > > > > day,

> > > > > > > homework,

> > > > > > > getting locked in, not being allowed to talk, not being

> > > > > > > allowed

> > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > go

> > > > > > > the bathroom, no liberty. The " upside " was learning to

> > > > > > > count,

> > > > > > > read

> > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > write. As I was swedish, I didn't get what is was all about.

> > > > > > > There

> > > > > > > was

> > > > > > > no upside for me, unfortunately. I didn't learn either

> > > > > > > reading,

> > > > > > > writing

> > > > > > > or counting to 100. I was there for 1,5 years. I was always

> > > > > > > reminded

> > > > > > > that I was the slowest/most stupid (but most silent which

> > > > > > > was a

> > > > > > > mitigating circumstance) pupil in the class, and was

> > > > > > > punished

> > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > publicly mocked for it.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ...

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I think this story and others still influences me in many

> > > > > > > ways

> > > > > > > ---

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > -I often hold back from taking initiatives that could put me

> > > > > > > in

> > > > > > > situations where I'm challenged in unexpected ways.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > -I keep to myself inside my head (I found safety in my head

> > > > > > > when

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > teacher was screaming and when I didn't understand what they

> > > > > > > where

> > > > > > > all

> > > > > > > talking about). I have a limited social life and an almost

> > > > > > > non

> > > > > > > existent

> > > > > > > romantic life.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > -When in new, challenging situations - my back becomes rigid

> > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > straight and I loose myself to a kind of automaton with

> > > > > > > limited

> > > > > > > access

> > > > > > > to any kind of thinking process - trying to act the part of

> > > > > > > a

> > > > > > > " super

> > > > > > > person " .

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > -etc...

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Acceptance and defusion:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I need to accept this story and defuse from it, all the

> > > > > > > while

> > > > > > > carrying

> > > > > > > this little kid with me - the way you often model it, Steve.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Values:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > While doing this, I need to find myself - Henrik - and see

> > > > > > > what

> > > > > > > kind

> > > > > > > of

> > > > > > > person I want to be at work. What can I change in the way I

> > > > > > > work

> > > > > > > so

> > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > it's fun to go to work? The world is changing faster and

> > > > > > > faster,

> > > > > > > with

> > > > > > > more and more challenges - so I need to change with it - all

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > while

> > > > > > > remaining Henrik. " Henrik " is a concept that is hard for me

> > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > maintain.

> > > > > > > Is it even useful as it could be moving deeper into self as

> > > > > > > concept?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Committed action:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Perhaps " Henrik " is about:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > -finding smart ways and short cuts to do things that make my

> > > > > > > life

> > > > > > > better.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > -joking

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > -being lazy

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > -opening up my heart to my colleagues, friends and clients

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > -helping them to open up their hearts

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > -trying to slow things down when the " automaton " is taking

> > > > > > > over

> > > > > > > so

> > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > I can go back to acceptance.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Any comments are welcome,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > With appreciation

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Henrik

> > > > > > >>

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Despite your long-winded failed attempt to not keep making this somewhat

personal, for whatever reason or another...all I can tell you, is that for me,

personally, I am leaving behind viewing my past with such terms, as I have

learned that suffering isn't the negative thing that I had been viewing it for

most of my life...it has it's place, and is ultimately there for one's

benefit...as it's often our only teacher...suffering is an effect, not the cause

I have never stated anywhere that life was an illusion, only that viewing it in

terms of " good " and " bad " , is...it is also the source of much suffering in and

of itself, as you create an aversion to what you consider " bad " , and become

attached to what you consider " good "

Both terms, imply the illusion of an ultimate standard...which there simply

isn't...life does not work in duality like the mind does, it just IS

Is cancer " bad " ? Who decides that? Can you speak for everyone?

I don't know why this is hard to get...these are labels we are speaking

of...take the words away, and what is left?

Maybe our definition of suffering is also different...I don't interchange the

word " pain " and " suffering "

Suffering to me, is caused from mental resistance

Reminds me of a Rumi poem

" The Guest House "

This being human is a guest house. Every morning a new arrival.

A joy, a depression, a meanness, some momentary awareness comes as an unexpected

visitor.

Welcome and entertain them all! Even if they're a crowd of sorrows, who

violently sweep your house empty of its furniture,

still, treat each guest honorably. He may be clearing you out for some new

delight.

The dark thought, the shame, the malice, meet them at the door laughing, and

invite them in.

Be grateful for whoever comes, because each has been sent as a guide from

beyond.

>

> Vcferrara,

>

> Re: " illusion " and " theory " etc. -

>

> I really am speaking for myself - although coming back to this

> thread this morning, I find that Kate & Helena have both said what

> I was trying to say, only much better. But I will try again to

> express myself, after which I will let the subject drop.

>

> I know I sound a little irked. Well, I am a little irked. I've

> been hearing the " it's all an illusion, just chill " language from

> you for a while. I don't buy it but even so I am trying to

> understand where you are coming from.

>

> Maybe " theory " is the wrong word. Maybe " philosophy " or " point of

> view " works better. I ask myself, what philosophy or point of view

> are you espousing? And I find I don't know.

>

> It's not ACT nor any other school of psychology that I recognize.

> It seems like a form of relativism, but relativism is not something

> normally adopted in psychology or psychotherapy - it is typically

> reserved for philosophers arguing (in effect) about how many

> philosophers can fit on the head of a pin. In other words it gets

> discussed with great furor in books but has very little relevance

> to how philosophers actually live their lives. It is of some use

> in cultural studies - but even there it has limits. It is not a

> ruling principle for anyone who wants to do practical work with

> human beings.

>

> And then again, sometimes you sound like you've been influenced

> by nondualism - that's why I brought up the example of Buddhist monks

> before. But I have never really read anything by nondualist or

> Buddhist writers in which people's direct experiences of pain &

> suffering - going hungry, suffering in time of war, political

> oppression, etc. - is treated as casually as you treat it. As if

> it were not really suffering but an error in point of view.

>

> If such things are not suffering, why is the Dalai Lhama still

> fighting as a political leader on behalf of the Tibetan people?

> Etc., etc.,

>

> As for why I ask about your own experience with suffering - I do

> this because I doubt that you walk around in a sea of utter

> relativism. Your life can't possibly resemble your philosophy -

> even nihilists believe in a cause. So what's *your* cause? Even

> nihilists have relationships with other people & feel sorrow

> sometimes. So when do *you* feel sorrow?

>

> Here's an anecdote that may illustrate what I am getting at: A zen

> student is meeting with a zen master. The master says, " OK, what's

> your insight for today? " And the student preens a little bit & then

> says, " Master, everything is an illusion. " At which point the master

> makes a motion like he is going to punch the student on the nose,

> and the student ducks. The master says, " OK, then, if it's all

> an illusion, why did you duck? "

>

> I don't mean to put you on the spot personally. You don't have to

> bare your soul or reveal secrets. I do mean to put you on the spot

> in terms of your philosophy. That's why I ask my questions. Can you

> show that what you are saying with illusion & relativism is livable

> & relevant to the rest of us on this list, and not just an idealized

> but unliveable philosophy?

>

> I do believe your intent in offering your POV is kind. I'm just not

> sure your POV is workable.

>

> - Randy

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Despite your long-winded failed attempt to not keep making

> this somewhat personal, for whatever reason or another...

VC,

Please see my post #16216 to you - here is the link if

you missed it:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/message/16216

That post is more recent in this thread than the one you are

referencing & perhaps may be helpful in explaining why

I have persisted in asking the questions that I have.

And it is not personal in the sense of me wanting to attack

you - if it has seemed that way I apologize. I hear at least

some of what you are saying. In that post (16216) I ask

if you could help me out in better understanding with

some examples of persons using your approach - I would

appreciate it.

thanks,

Randy

[Guest guest]

>

> VC,

>

> Please see my post #16216 to you - here is the link if

> you missed it:

P.S. I think the other dynamic going on in this thread is that

folks like me are concerned that your POV is inadvertently

invalidating other people's pain - not on purpose, in fact

you are trying very hard to be helpful; but perhaps it comes

across as invalidation even though that is not intended.

You are right that hanging onto suffering as an identity

can be counterproductive ... and yet even so it seems that

suffering must be acknowledged for what it is, as a first

step. At least that is my take on it.

- R.

[Guest guest]

>

> I don't see how BK's work and ACT are incompatible...they

> are simply different methods to achieving the same thing...

> both have been quite helpful...

Well - I'll take more try at illustrating the differences.

Here is another thing Byron wrote, from her book " A

Thousand Names for Joy " : she is talking about how " not caring "

frees her from negative emotions:

" Sadness is always a sign that you're believing a stressful

thought that isn't true for you. It's a constriction, and it feels

bad. Conventional wisdom says differently, but the truth is that

sadness isn't rational, it isn't a natural response, and it can't

ever help you. It just indicates the loss of reality, the loss of

awareness of love. Sadness is the war with what is. It's a

trantrum. You can experience it only when you're arguing with God.

When the mind is clear, there isn't any sadness. There can't be. " '

I don't think you'll find that message in an ACT book - that

sadness isn't a natural response & ought to be regarded as

defective, arguing with God, not rational, etc. ACT tends to say

that it is okay to feel your emotions for what they are.

Which is not to say that there might not be something else that

people get out of her work that by itself is not ACT inconsistent.

But on the whole, there are some pretty obvious differences.

- Randy

[Guest guest]

I am very new here but I have already found out this is a tough group.  Very tough, especially for a mental health type of group.I get easily upset by things on the internet and message boards so I understand.  I don't think you are upset but your message or position is constantly being challenged.

You could just ignore this email thread, that's how I deal with most things

 

Way to gang up guys

Starting to feel a bit clickish in these parts

> > >

> > > But what is it to you?

> >

> > Hmm, not sure what you're asking here. If you are asking, why

> > do I keep harping on this issue, it's because I think there is

> > something actively dangerous in saying " there is no good or bad "

> > and telling people that suffering is entirely in their head.

> >

> > And in fact I was suddenly struck today in following this thread

> > by the resemblance of such assertions to what the New Age guru Byron

> > says in promoting her form of talk therapy, " The Work. "

> >

> > Here's an excerpt from the Byron book " Loving What is " - you

> > can find it yourself using the " Look inside " feature on Amazon:

> >

> > " Q: How can you say that reality is good? What about war rape,

> > poverty, violence, and child abuse? Are you condoning them?

> >

> > " A: How could I condone them? I simply notice that if I believe

> > they shouldn't exist, I suffer. They exist until they don't. Can I

> > just end the war in me? Can I stop raping myself and others with

> > abusive thinking? If not, I'm continuing in myself the very thing

> > that I want to end in you. Sanity doesn't suffer, ever. Can you

> > eliminate war everywhere on earth? Through inquiry, you can begin

> > to eliminate it for one human being: you. "

> >

> > And here's another excerpt from the same book:

> >

> > " I have helped people do The Work on rape, war in Vietnam and

> > Bosnia, torture, internment in Nazi concentration camps, the death

> > of a child, and the prolonged pain of illnesses like cancer. Many

> > of us think it's not possible to accept extreme experiences like

> > these, much less meet them with unconditional love. But not only

> > is that possible, it's our true nature.

> >

> > " Nothing terrible has ever happened except in our thinking.

> > Reality is always good, even in situations that seem like

> > nightmares. The story we tell is the only nightmare that we have

> > lived. When I say the worst that can happen is a belief, I am

> > being literal. The worst that can happen to you is your

> > uninvestigated belief system. "

> >

> > Both these quotes are so distant from ACT as a philosophy that I

> > would say ACT and " The Work " are incompatible. And for that matter

> > I would say " The Work " seems incompatible to me with being a caring

> > human being who takes action in the world, as opposed to staying in

> > his or her head.

> >

> > Interestingly, Buddhist authors quite often write things that seem

> > outwardly very much like what Byron is saying, i.e. about

> > learning to respond in an unthreatened way to even the most

> > horrendous situations.

> >

> > For example, the Dalai Lama, in books such as " The Art of

> > Happiness, " has given examples of how spiritual training has

> > allowed Tibetan monks undergoing torture in Chinese labor camps to

> > nonetheless feel compassion for their captors, and through this

> > compassion turn an extraordinarily negative situation into a

> > positive one: " For example, three days ago I met a monk who spend

> > many years in Chinese prisons ... as a result of his Buddhist

> > practices, because of this training of the mind, he was able to

> > remain mentally very happy even if he was in physical pain. Even

> > when he underwent torture and severe beatings, he was able to

> > survive it and still feel happy by viewing it as a cleansing of

> > his past negative Karma. "

> >

> > So what is the difference between Byron and the Dalai Lama?

> > There are a couple of obvious differences & they are hug.

> >

> > 1) Unlike Byron , the Dalai Lama and other practicing

> > Buddhists acknowledge that not only do living beings (including

> > Chinese prison guards!) not wish to suffer, but they actively wish

> > to be happy; and that as part of seeking happiness, people have a

> > right to the material things that contribute to happiness - e.g.

> > freedom from oppression, a roof over your head, something

> > nourishing to eat, caring actions by other people, a good night's

> > sleep, etc. (The Dalai Lama especially loves a good sleep, by the

> > way.)

> >

> > 2) Also unlike Byron , the Dalai Lama and other contemporary

> > Buddhists work off a base of compassion which includes actively

> > doing work in the real world to end oppression, help people get

> > enough to eat, etc. Whereas if you follow Byron , you can

> > apparently stay in your head & never lift a finger for anyone and

> > that's fine.

> >

> > I hope this illuminates a little bit more why I get as concerned

> > as I do when I hear stuff like " good and bad is an illusion " being

> > passed off as good advice for living. I am not saying you or anyone

> > else in this thread is not compassionate - far from it - but I *am*

> > saying that belief systems such as Byron's can lead us down

> > that path if we are not careful. I know you don't intend any such

> > thing - I am speaking only in general terms.

> >

> > And now hopefully I am done with fulminating about this.

> >

> > - Randy

> >

>

-- Regards,Phil

[Guest guest]

Gang up? Cheapening one's stance by quoting from the internet?

It's probably time to drop the rope on this topic if that's how you feel. Ad hominem responses (An argument based on the failings of an adversary rather than on the merits of the case; a logical fallacy that involves a personal attack) are not helpful to any discussion; although politicians seem to thrive on them. I did get that definition from the internet to make sure I got it right : )

Helena

From: "vcferrara" <vcferrara>To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2011 10:13:15 PMSubject: Re: Your "story"

Way to gang up guysStarting to feel a bit clickish in these parts

[Guest guest]

wow, now that makes me sad! Did she really say this?

Talk about warring with what's so. She's delusional!

> >

> > I don't see how BK's work and ACT are incompatible...they

> > are simply different methods to achieving the same thing...

> > both have been quite helpful...

>

> Well - I'll take more try at illustrating the differences.

>

> Here is another thing Byron wrote, from her book " A

> Thousand Names for Joy " : she is talking about how " not caring "

> frees her from negative emotions:

>

> " Sadness is always a sign that you're believing a stressful

> thought that isn't true for you. It's a constriction, and it feels

> bad. Conventional wisdom says differently, but the truth is that

> sadness isn't rational, it isn't a natural response, and it can't

> ever help you. It just indicates the loss of reality, the loss of

> awareness of love. Sadness is the war with what is. It's a

> trantrum. You can experience it only when you're arguing with God.

> When the mind is clear, there isn't any sadness. There can't be. " '

>

> I don't think you'll find that message in an ACT book - that

> sadness isn't a natural response & ought to be regarded as

> defective, arguing with God, not rational, etc. ACT tends to say

> that it is okay to feel your emotions for what they are.

>

> Which is not to say that there might not be something else that

> people get out of her work that by itself is not ACT inconsistent.

> But on the whole, there are some pretty obvious differences.

>

> - Randy

>

[Guest guest]

I have 5 of Byron s cd's. I am also going this weekend to a workshop. This

is how I use Byron .

Last week , someone took the money out of my wallet. This was the 4th time. I

got emotonally upset over my judgement that people i work with shouldnt steel

money out of my wallet. My action was to look at each person who might have

been suspicious. It was destroying my peace and preventing me from moving on to

other things I needed and wanted to do and say.

Then, I thought of the 4 questions. Yes, it was absolutley true someoen robbed

me and it wasnt moral. I asked myself how I was acting. Then I said ok -turn it

around . I came up with I robbed me. This was the 4th time , and I didnt put a

lock on my drawer. I moved the location but no lock. Now , not only was my money

gone but I was being robbed of peace, time, actions then I could put toward my

values.

That doesnt mean it was ok to be robbed. Byron and ACT all have something

to give us , use what you can and leave the rest behind. Its our choice

Lin

> >

> > Thankfully there are many paths

>

> And with that I'll lay off. Thanks for listening & responding.

>

> - R.

>