Re: On Mindfulness and Acceptance/ Letting one another Off the Hook

[Guest guest]

Kv, you might have a good point in terms of commenting that sounds quick to

reassure. I sometimes can jump in with well meaning common niceties, things

that could feel like collusion or buying into behavior (Oh, that's cool, we all

do stuff like that, you don't need to apologize and so forth) rather than just

creating a space for someone to have whatever they're having. Sometimes I don't

know what to say, and maybe the best thing is to just sit with that. Because

that kind of trying to gloss over and rescue others is not helpful for me or for

the other person. So if that's what you're sensing when you say somewhat

jokingly you'd too like to be " let off the hook " , then well, yeah. The line can

be blurry between trying to rescue some-one from their feelings and offering

gentle support as they go down the rabbit hole with their mind " shoulding " on

them.

terry

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If mindfulness and acceptance are the be-all to end-all, why are

they so

> > > > > > deficient?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I seem to be mindful of everything in my world all of the time. So

what?

> > > > > > My world is one of horror and pain -- no kidding. Of course I accept

it

> > > > > > for what it is. But I'm not going to kid myself that it is anything

but

> > > > > > horrible and painful. Why the heck would I? Why the heck would

anyone?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'd rather not live in this world. And that's the problem.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Cheers (if that's an appropriate sign-off),

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Detlef

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Terry - Thanks for bringing up the word collusion. I think there's a fine line between collusion and compassion. I feel totally helpless when people post during a crisis. My instinct is to coach on what ACT says to do, but I would probably not be very coachable in a crisis, so I don't coach. A compassionate email, like yours, might be just the ticket in the moment. But it might be helpful to followup with something more concrete later. So ... what to do in a crisis: see The Happiness Trap , pp. 235-236. I find it very helpful to use the notice five things exercise to buy me some time to invoke other ACT core processes to shorten the stay down the rabbit hole. But that takes practice. Up until a year or so ago, when I was in a crisis I felt like I had never heard of ACT and had no clue what to do. Now, with considerable practice, I can usually get my bearings in just a few minutes or maybe a few hours if I get too far down the hole before I "get a clue." I will say that I believe ACT is a learned skill. Like playing a banjo, I better have practiced when it's show time.Bill> To: ACT_for_the_Public > Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 23:02:48 +0000> Subject: Re: On Mindfulness and Acceptance/ Letting one another "Off the Hook"> > Kv, you might have a good point in terms of commenting that sounds quick to reassure. I sometimes can jump in with well meaning common niceties, things that could feel like collusion or buying into behavior (Oh, that's cool, we all do stuff like that, you don't need to apologize and so forth) rather than just creating a space for someone to have whatever they're having. Sometimes I don't know what to say, and maybe the best thing is to just sit with that. Because that kind of trying to gloss over and rescue others is not helpful for me or for the other person. So if that's what you're sensing when you say somewhat jokingly you'd too like to be "let off the hook", then well, yeah. The line can be blurry between trying to rescue some-one from their feelings and offering gentle support as they go down the rabbit hole with their mind "shoulding" on them.> > terry> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > If mindfulness and acceptance are the be-all to end-all, why are they so> > > > > > > deficient?> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I seem to be mindful of everything in my world all of the time. So what?> > > > > > > My world is one of horror and pain -- no kidding. Of course I accept it> > > > > > > for what it is. But I'm not going to kid myself that it is anything but> > > > > > > horrible and painful. Why the heck would I? Why the heck would anyone?> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd rather not live in this world. And that's the problem.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers (if that's an appropriate sign-off),> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Detlef> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >> > > > > ------------------------------------> > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org> > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > unsubscribe by sending an email to > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links> > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/> > <*> Your email settings:> Individual Email | Traditional> > <*> To change settings online go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join> (Yahoo! ID required)> > <*> To change settings via email:> ACT_for_the_Public-digest > ACT_for_the_Public-fullfeatured > > <*>

[Guest guest]

Good luck Lou! Nice summary..more later..

terry

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > If mindfulness and acceptance are the be-all to end-all, why

are they so

> > > > > > > > > deficient?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I seem to be mindful of everything in my world all of the

time. So what?

> > > > > > > > > My world is one of horror and pain -- no kidding. Of course I

accept it

> > > > > > > > > for what it is. But I'm not going to kid myself that it is

anything but

> > > > > > > > > horrible and painful. Why the heck would I? Why the heck would

anyone?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I'd rather not live in this world. And that's the problem.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Cheers (if that's an appropriate sign-off),

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Detlef

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > >

> > > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org

> > >

> > > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may

> > > unsubscribe by sending an email to

> > > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@! Groups Links

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Yes to everything you say here!

terry

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > If mindfulness and acceptance are the be-all to end-all, why are

they so

> > > > > > > > deficient?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I seem to be mindful of everything in my world all of the time.

So what?

> > > > > > > > My world is one of horror and pain -- no kidding. Of course I

accept it

> > > > > > > > for what it is. But I'm not going to kid myself that it is

anything but

> > > > > > > > horrible and painful. Why the heck would I? Why the heck would

anyone?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I'd rather not live in this world. And that's the problem.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Cheers (if that's an appropriate sign-off),

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Detlef

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org

> >

> > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may

> > unsubscribe by sending an email to

> > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

There is always room for compassion. I am not so concerned about crossing the line to collusion while voicing compassion as I am about reaching out to someone with kindness, no matter what the crisis or the perceived "transgression". Some may believe that it is better to let someone off the hook and others may think it best to let them dangle on the hook "for their own good" or to let them sit with the experience they created. Neither one is right or wrong - there is no "one size fits all" when it comes to how to respond - or not - to another person's crisis.

For me, I think it is better to err on the side of compassion. Every regular poster on this list desires to live a life according to their values and are well aware of their shortcomings and demons, or they wouldn't be participating on this list. If someone posts while drunk when they are in pain or even while being crude or disagreeable (within limits; I recall one drunk poster who was abusive and was kicked off the list), I am not necessarily condoning the behavior if I choose to offer comfort to them in their pain or in their anger (which also comes from pain).

Expressing compassion does not equate with condoning behavior. I think collusion would be pretty hard to do, really, on an email list like this. Collusion, or "enabling," is most likely to come from close relationships in a person's life, not from us. I would never say, "Hey, it's OK or cool that you did that." But I might say "Hey, I've been there and I understand." And I don't think that apologies are needed for most of our foolish mistakes - but forgiving oneself is needed - unless one has intentionally tried to hurt someone, and only that person can know that.

Helena

To: "ACT_for_the_Public" <act_for_the_public >Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2011 8:38:02 PMSubject: RE: Re: On Mindfulness and Acceptance/ Letting one another "Off the Hook"

Hi Terry - Thanks for bringing up the word collusion. I think there's a fine line between collusion and compassion. I feel totally helpless when people post during a crisis. My instinct is to coach on what ACT says to do, but I would probably not be very coachable in a crisis, so I don't coach. A compassionate email, like yours, might be just the ticket in the moment. But it might be helpful to followup with something more concrete later.

So ... what to do in a crisis: see The Happiness Trap , pp. 235-236.

I find it very helpful to use the notice five things exercise to buy me some time to invoke other ACT core processes to shorten the stay down the rabbit hole. But that takes practice. Up until a year or so ago, when I was in a crisis I felt like I had never heard of ACT and had no clue what to do. Now, with considerable practice, I can usually get my bearings in just a few minutes or maybe a few hours if I get too far down the hole before I "get a clue." I will say that I believe ACT is a learned skill. Like playing a banjo, I better have practiced when it's show time.

Bill

> To: ACT_for_the_Public > Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 23:02:48 +0000> Subject: Re: On Mindfulness and Acceptance/ Letting one another "Off the Hook"> > Kv, you might have a good point in terms of commenting that sounds quick to reassure. I sometimes can jump in with well meaning common niceties, things that could feel like collusion or buying into behavior (Oh, that's cool, we all do stuff like that, you don't need to apologize and so forth) rather than just creating a space for someone to have whatever they're having. Sometimes I don't know what to say, and maybe the best thing is to just sit with that. Because that kind of trying to gloss over and rescue others is not helpful for me or for the other person. So if that's what you're sensing when you say somewhat jokingly you'd too like to be "let off the hook", then well, yeah. The line can be blurry between trying to rescue some-one from their feelings and offering gentle support as they go down the rabbit hole with their mind "shoulding" on them.> > terry> > > >> > I hope that means folk will let me off the hook too. I only need a glass of wine (a big one) and I feel pefectly sober when I post but the next day I think crikey!> >

[Guest guest]

Well, this whole thread is very interesting. Thanks to everyone. I hope we

continue to sit and re-visit this conversation as we need.

Yes, always room for compassion and then some. I think " Off the hook " vs.

" leaving dangling on the hook " are not the words that best reflect this tension

I experience and sorry if I guided the conversation there.

My problem or difficulty as I think Bill and I were trying to convey (although I

can't speak for Bill, naturally) is making sure I'm coming from that place and

not inadvertently trying to control the discomfort with myself or another, say,

by adding too much too soon. Because that can then become avoidance which is

the inverse of acceptance. As far as how someone else interprets my words or

lack of words, you're right, I do a lot better to not concern myself with that

as I can't control for that. I can only hope that what I'm saying (or not

saying, as the case may be) is helpful.

And the best gauge I have come up with so far for that is to sit with it some,

sit with the words the pain the person is expressing, notice what is coming up

for me and imagine what I would find useful, helpful to read (or not read) if

that were me writing those words.

And it's tricky stuff, I'm sure you'll agree. This trying to be helpful on the

page. I can definitely relate to the helplessness Bill feels both when I post my

own pain and read others. (Thanks Bill for saying that!). And maybe that's just

enough. To notice that. (For the poster and reader). And maybe that's not

enough. In that regard, I like Bill's idea of more detailed follow through,

after there has been breathing time for the pain to just be. Please know that's

not meant to be same as keeping someone dangling on a hook. Compassion looks a

lot of ways. And not meant to be a formula either.

You're right..each time, the response may be different, depending on where I'm

at, what I'm hearing in the post. Again, it's all fodder for learning. Maybe we

can even ask each other " How can I help you right now? " What has been helpful

for me/you in the past here? "

I've learned so much here, it makes me cry. I go over my old posts and say " oh

wow..i see this and that " . What a great space this is. It's not same as real

life interactions for sure, but it's close enough for amazing learning

opportunities.

terry

> > >

> > > I hope that means folk will let me off the hook too. I only need a glass

of wine (a big one) and I feel pefectly sober when I post but the next day I

think crikey!

> > > 

>

[Guest guest]

oh, in a hurry, sorry.. " that place " meaning as in from a place acceptance and

compassion.

> > > >

> > > > I hope that means folk will let me off the hook too. I only need a glass

of wine (a big one) and I feel pefectly sober when I post but the next day I

think crikey!

> > > > 

> >

>