Guest guest Posted July 2, 2011 Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 Hi all,I think CBT and ACT together make a very powerful and versatile toolkit. Some of you did a great job succinctly explaining when and how these tools can be used and what you have to keep in mind. I like Stan's example of the coin tosses and how our minds naturally come up with the irrational idea that tails is due after 10 straight heads. Well, he mentioned gamblers think that way, but I think all or most all human minds have this tendency. To me this is a clear example where disputing an irrational thought is best approach and not just accepting and defusing. If I catch myself thinking " tails is due now " , I can defuse from that thought, sure. But I think much better is to understand a little probability and realize what a crazy and silly idea that some god is going to somehow intervene in the next coin toss to make it come up tails or increase the chance of tails. I can't think of any other way beside believing in some devine intervention to believe the irrational idea of tails due. My guess is that most of you on this list who know a little about CBT and ACT and have experimented with it a little know when and how the use these tools both from CBT and ACT ... and perhaps other sources.And I wonder about some of you strong ACT proponents and anti-CBT folk. Defusing I find is very powerful and effective for me and in so many ways so much more simple than some CBT stuff like daily mood logs and writing out the ABCs (that's really Ellis's idea) and doing CBT (Cost-Benefit-Analysis), etc. That seems like such pain in butt work! But I think it's effective and at times really is the best tool. I wonder if some of you anti-CBT folk just want an easy solution! Sometimes what you need to do is something that is not easy and not comfortable and not fun at the moment. (The instructor in my last yoga class said something like that.) Cheers! I can see where using these cognitive distortion terms from a very light, defused place makes a world of difference. Just as a launching pad to embracing what is so right now. Or to use for defusion purposes. Long ago and far away, I was initially attracted to all the labeling of the popular cognitive distortions, used to carry a list around with me (you can find one anywhere on the Internet) and was happy to be able to identify what i thought my mind was doing and happy to judge what you are doing ;-). Pick out a snappy term and at least it felt like i was doing something! I could define what was happening. Ah..control comes in all forms. And yet that wore off quickly. Clustering experience into huge chunks and calling them things like: " Catastrophizing " and " Personalization " was just not helpful in the long run. Felt a bit objectifying. Over-diagnosing myself and others big time. Called forth evaluation and judgment. Maybe it's 'cause that's what my mind loves to do anyway. Helps me to stand back and look at the function of this behavior. With catastrophizing for example, I'm fusing with this exaggeration that insists I'm right about horrible things are. And I'm no longer present. I'm now in my mind, making up a story, and insisting I'm right. I'm trying to force a conclusion, trying to control things, even if the conclusion in this case make me very anxious and is quite exaggerated, slanted to one side. No matter. So yeah, with ACT, I can see where saying something like: " Oh, there go doomsday thoughts " or the like would be very useful. With the intention of coming back to my experience, the present moment. theresa > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Esther, > > > > > > The components of CBT that involve noticing your thoughts and naming your > > > thought processes can function very nicely as ACT-type defusion techniques. > > > For example, You might say to yourself, with a sense of humour, 'Aha. There > > > goes my mind catastrophising. Thanks mind.'or 'Aha. There goes my mind being > > > illogical again.' The key difference is, in ACT we would not go on to > > > dispute/challenge the thought or try to make it go away. Rather, we would > > > invest our energy in taking effective action, and engage fully in the task > > > at hand, instead of trying to control our thoughts and feelings. > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > Cheers, Russ > > > > > > > > > > > > <http://www.actmindfully.com.au> www.actmindfully.com.au > > > > > > <http://www.thehappinesstrap.com> www.thehappinesstrap.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: ACT_for_the_Public > > > [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of Esther L > > > Sent: Friday, 1 July 2011 9:34 AM > > > To: act_for_the_public > > > Subject: ACT and CBT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have been using CBT to work with my social anxiety for years, and am > > > now working to incorporate ACT through The Happiness Trap. At this > > > point CBT has become automatic - " this is an illogical thought, " > > > " you're catastrophizing " etc. I am working to accept my thoughts > > > instead. How do I get past this? I've taken to thinking " it's ok to > > > have this thought " and then following one of the suggestions for > > > acceptance. > > > > > > Also, when I'm in a social situation I don't want to work on > > > acceptance, which I'm shaky in, when CBT will allow me to succeed > > > immediately. At what point in the book should I start using ACT in > > > real situations? > > > > > > Thank you, the list has been helpful so far! > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2011 Report Share Posted July 3, 2011 In my experience there is a contradiction within ACT. It suggests not challenging and engaging in thoughts unless they are helpful........ but how do you know if the thoughts are helpful unless you engage with them?For all except the silliest thoughts, where the distinction is obvious, this is a Catch 22. It has tripped me up many times. xSubject: Re: ACT and CBTTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Sunday, 3 July, 2011, 3:09Yes, this seems important. Nice stretch. Interesting how one approach might resonate for one and not so much for another. What I love about this work, room for all.terry> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > Hi Esther,> > > > > >> > > > > > The components of CBT that involve noticing your thoughts and naming> > > your> > > > > > thought processes can function very nicely as ACT-type defusion> > > techniques.> > > > > > For example, You might say to yourself, with a sense of humour, 'Aha.> > > There> > > > > > goes my mind catastrophising. Thanks mind.'or 'Aha. There goes my> > > mind being> > > > > > illogical again.' The key difference is, in ACT we would not go on to> > > > > > dispute/challenge the thought or try to make it go away. Rather, we> > > would> > > > > > invest our energy in taking effective action, and engage fully in the> > > task> > > > > > at hand, instead of trying to control our thoughts and feelings.> > > > > >> > > > > > All the best,> > > > > >> > > > > > Cheers, Russ > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > <http://www.actmindfully.com.au> www.actmindfully.com.au> > > > > >> > > > > > <http://www.thehappinesstrap.com> www.thehappinesstrap.com> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > From: ACT_for_the_Public > > > > > > [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of Esther L> > > > > > Sent: Friday, 1 July 2011 9:34 AM> > > > > > To: act_for_the_public > > > > > > Subject: ACT and CBT> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > I have been using CBT to work with my social anxiety for years, and> > > am> > > > > > now working to incorporate ACT through The Happiness Trap. At this> > > > > > point CBT has become automatic - "this is an illogical thought,"> > > > > > "you're catastrophizing" etc. I am working to accept my thoughts> > > > > > instead. How do I get past this? I've taken to thinking "it's ok to> > > > > > have this thought" and then following one of the suggestions for> > > > > > acceptance.> > > > > >> > > > > > Also, when I'm in a social situation I don't want to work on> > > > > > acceptance, which I'm shaky in, when CBT will allow me to succeed> > > > > > immediately. At what point in the book should I start using ACT in> > > > > > real situations?> > > > > >> > > > > > Thank you, the list has been helpful so far!> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > >> >>------------------------------------For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.orgIf you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may unsubscribe by sending an email to ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links<*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/<*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional<*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join (Yahoo! ID required)<*> To change settings via email: ACT_for_the_Public-digest ACT_for_the_Public-fullfeatured <*> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2011 Report Share Posted July 3, 2011 In my experience there is a contradiction within ACT. It suggests not challenging and engaging in thoughts unless they are helpful........ but how do you know if the thoughts are helpful unless you engage with them?For all except the silliest thoughts, where the distinction is obvious, this is a Catch 22. It has tripped me up many times. xSubject: Re: ACT and CBTTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Sunday, 3 July, 2011, 3:09Yes, this seems important. Nice stretch. Interesting how one approach might resonate for one and not so much for another. What I love about this work, room for all.terry> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > Hi Esther,> > > > > >> > > > > > The components of CBT that involve noticing your thoughts and naming> > > your> > > > > > thought processes can function very nicely as ACT-type defusion> > > techniques.> > > > > > For example, You might say to yourself, with a sense of humour, 'Aha.> > > There> > > > > > goes my mind catastrophising. Thanks mind.'or 'Aha. There goes my> > > mind being> > > > > > illogical again.' The key difference is, in ACT we would not go on to> > > > > > dispute/challenge the thought or try to make it go away. Rather, we> > > would> > > > > > invest our energy in taking effective action, and engage fully in the> > > task> > > > > > at hand, instead of trying to control our thoughts and feelings.> > > > > >> > > > > > All the best,> > > > > >> > > > > > Cheers, Russ > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > <http://www.actmindfully.com.au> www.actmindfully.com.au> > > > > >> > > > > > <http://www.thehappinesstrap.com> www.thehappinesstrap.com> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > From: ACT_for_the_Public > > > > > > [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of Esther L> > > > > > Sent: Friday, 1 July 2011 9:34 AM> > > > > > To: act_for_the_public > > > > > > Subject: ACT and CBT> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > I have been using CBT to work with my social anxiety for years, and> > > am> > > > > > now working to incorporate ACT through The Happiness Trap. At this> > > > > > point CBT has become automatic - "this is an illogical thought,"> > > > > > "you're catastrophizing" etc. I am working to accept my thoughts> > > > > > instead. How do I get past this? I've taken to thinking "it's ok to> > > > > > have this thought" and then following one of the suggestions for> > > > > > acceptance.> > > > > >> > > > > > Also, when I'm in a social situation I don't want to work on> > > > > > acceptance, which I'm shaky in, when CBT will allow me to succeed> > > > > > immediately. At what point in the book should I start using ACT in> > > > > > real situations?> > > > > >> > > > > > Thank you, the list has been helpful so far!> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > >> >>------------------------------------For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.orgIf you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may unsubscribe by sending an email to ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links<*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/<*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional<*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join (Yahoo! ID required)<*> To change settings via email: ACT_for_the_Public-digest ACT_for_the_Public-fullfeatured <*> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2011 Report Share Posted July 3, 2011 Hi , My take on it: Since we tend to have repetitive thoughts (or thoughts with the same theme), it seems that we would learn by trial and error which ones are helpful and which aren't. If engaging with them is not helpful, then we learn that not engaging with them is the right course of action when they come up again. If it is an entirely new thought (except for the clearly silly ones, as you noted), perhaps we can't know if it's helpful or not until we interact with it. Helena To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, July 3, 2011 3:32:04 AMSubject: Re: Re: ACT and CBT In my experience there is a contradiction within ACT. It suggests not challenging and engaging in thoughts unless they are helpful........ but how do you know if the thoughts are helpful unless you engage with them?For all except the silliest thoughts, where the distinction is obvious, this is a Catch 22. It has tripped me up many times. x Subject: Re: ACT and CBTTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Sunday, 3 July, 2011, 3:09 Yes, this seems important. Nice stretch. Interesting how one approach might resonate for one and not so much for another. What I love about this work, room for all.terry> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > Hi Esther,> > > > > >> > > > > > The components of CBT that involve noticing your thoughts and naming> > > your> > > > > > thought processes can function very nicely as ACT-type defusion> > > techniques.> > > > > > For example, You might say to yourself, with a sense of humour, 'Aha.> > > There> > > > > > goes my mind catastrophising. Thanks mind.'or 'Aha. There goes my> > > mind being> > > > > > illogical again.' The key difference is, in ACT we would not go on to> > > > > > dispute/challenge the thought or try to make it go away. Rather, we> > > would> > > > > > invest our energy in taking effective action, and engage fully in the> > > task> > > > > > at hand, instead of trying to control our thoughts and feelings.> > > > > >> > > > > > All the best,> > > > > >> > > > > > Cheers, Russ > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > <http://www.actmindfully.com.au> www.actmindfully.com.au> > > > > >> > > > > > <http://www.thehappinesstrap.com> www.thehappinesstrap.com> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > From: ACT_for_the_Public > > > > > > [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of Esther L> > > > > > Sent: Friday, 1 July 2011 9:34 AM> > > > > > To: act_for_the_public > > > > > > Subject: ACT and CBT> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > I have been using CBT to work with my social anxiety for years, and> > > am> > > > > > now working to incorporate ACT through The Happiness Trap. At this> > > > > > point CBT has become automatic - "this is an illogical thought,"> > > > > > "you're catastrophizing" etc. I am working to accept my thoughts> > > > > > instead. How do I get past this? I've taken to thinking "it's ok to> > > > > > have this thought" and then following one of the suggestions for> > > > > > acceptance.> > > > > >> > > > > > Also, when I'm in a social situation I don't want to work on> > > > > > acceptance, which I'm shaky in, when CBT will allow me to succeed> > > > > > immediately. At what point in the book should I start using ACT in> > > > > > real situations?> > > > > >> > > > > > Thank you, the list has been helpful so far!> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > >> >>------------------------------------For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.orgIf you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may unsubscribe by sending an email to ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links<*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/<*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional<*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join (Yahoo! ID required)<*> To change settings via email: ACT_for_the_Public-digest ACT_for_the_Public-fullfeatured <*> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2011 Report Share Posted July 3, 2011 Perhaps start by defining " engage " ...? As you note, , I will be aware of every thought. And I can choose to explore any of them. The process of deciding whether a given thought is helpful is a personal journey—does it support my goals, my values? Undermine them? Affect them at all? If a thing seems like a Catch 22, I usually suspect I have moved into the realm of intellectual gameplay with it. D > In my experience there is a contradiction within ACT. It suggests not challenging and engaging in thoughts unless they are helpful.... > > .... but how do you know if the thoughts are helpful unless you engage with them? > > For all except the silliest thoughts, where the distinction is obvious, this is a Catch 22. It has tripped me up many times. > > x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2011 Report Share Posted July 3, 2011 Perhaps start by defining " engage " ...? As you note, , I will be aware of every thought. And I can choose to explore any of them. The process of deciding whether a given thought is helpful is a personal journey—does it support my goals, my values? Undermine them? Affect them at all? If a thing seems like a Catch 22, I usually suspect I have moved into the realm of intellectual gameplay with it. D > In my experience there is a contradiction within ACT. It suggests not challenging and engaging in thoughts unless they are helpful.... > > .... but how do you know if the thoughts are helpful unless you engage with them? > > For all except the silliest thoughts, where the distinction is obvious, this is a Catch 22. It has tripped me up many times. > > x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2011 Report Share Posted July 3, 2011 Yeah, the last couple weeks I've been very stressed, angry, fearful, worried, anxious, upset. I seems here some of the ACT stuff is better. I think trying to find some kind of irrational belief that is causing my emotions and disputing them while still in this highly aroused emotional state would make it worse. So defusing works pretty good. Also, yoga classes and exercise works well. Also looking at and examining my emotions and thinking about my values the past two days has helped me uncover another value of mine. Being autonomous or being independent. I like being in control and making my own decisions about how to solve a problem rather then just told or ordered what to do. Cheers! Funny, I wonder about folks trying to make ACT fit with CBT when it really already fits with anything being the contextual approach it is and all. In the same way ACT jives with CBT, I see it jives with the experiential parts of psychodynamic and gestalt approaches and with the values piece found in existentialism and so on! It could be a way to simply widen the umbrella and have more folks feel welcome, I suppose. That would be a very good thing. In terms of your example here, there really is no right or wrong. I have silly thoughts all the time..why not just call it silly? And defuse from that? Or superstitious? Why add on narrative that pulls for an argument or evaluation about what is reasonable, rational and so forth? For me, " Irrational " pulls for argument and judgment in my mind. Doesn't make sense to work harder than I need to, to feed the struggle that is already there, hungry, looking for something to chomp it's teeth into and fly away from where I am now. Mighty hungry beast looking to take over. But of course, that's just my experience. As always, do what works and let your experience guide you. Don't let people here who you see as " Anti-CBT " or whatever sway you. If disputing a thought is movement with your chosen values, brings you closer to yourself, let that inform you. kind regards, theresa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Esther, > > > > > > > > > > The components of CBT that involve noticing your thoughts and naming > > your > > > > > thought processes can function very nicely as ACT-type defusion > > techniques. > > > > > For example, You might say to yourself, with a sense of humour, 'Aha. > > There > > > > > goes my mind catastrophising. Thanks mind.'or 'Aha. There goes my > > mind being > > > > > illogical again.' The key difference is, in ACT we would not go on to > > > > > dispute/challenge the thought or try to make it go away. Rather, we > > would > > > > > invest our energy in taking effective action, and engage fully in the > > task > > > > > at hand, instead of trying to control our thoughts and feelings. > > > > > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, Russ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <http://www.actmindfully.com.au> www.actmindfully.com.au > > > > > > > > > > <http://www.thehappinesstrap.com> www.thehappinesstrap.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: ACT_for_the_Public > > > > > [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of Esther L > > > > > Sent: Friday, 1 July 2011 9:34 AM > > > > > To: act_for_the_public > > > > > Subject: ACT and CBT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have been using CBT to work with my social anxiety for years, and > > am > > > > > now working to incorporate ACT through The Happiness Trap. At this > > > > > point CBT has become automatic - " this is an illogical thought, " > > > > > " you're catastrophizing " etc. I am working to accept my thoughts > > > > > instead. How do I get past this? I've taken to thinking " it's ok to > > > > > have this thought " and then following one of the suggestions for > > > > > acceptance. > > > > > > > > > > Also, when I'm in a social situation I don't want to work on > > > > > acceptance, which I'm shaky in, when CBT will allow me to succeed > > > > > immediately. At what point in the book should I start using ACT in > > > > > real situations? > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, the list has been helpful so far! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2011 Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 Yes, I have this book. Thanks for that Kaivey, looks very interesting and useful and there's a 5 star review from Russ , and another one from Todd Kashdan, so it comes well recommended. Kate > > > It looks like you interpreted my message correctly. It should have said: > > 'A CBT-Practitioner's Guide to ACT: How to Bridge the Gap Between > Cognitive Behavioral Therapy and Acceptance and Commitment Therapy'. > > http://www.amazon.com/CBT-Practitioners-Guide-ACT-Behavioral-Acceptance/\ > dp/1572245514/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=books & qid=1309701528 & sr=8-1 > <http://www.amazon.com/CBT-Practitioners-Guide-ACT-Behavioral-Acceptance\ > /dp/1572245514/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=books & qid=1309701528 & sr=8-1> > > This is one of my favourite ACT books. > > Kv > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2011 Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 ....ain't it always the way? As soon as we accept a concept, we begin identifying with it and soon we have something to defend... D Sent from my iPad gadget Darrell G. King > Plus, I think it will help me to see the value in both. Thanks to a couple of posts recently, I've become aware that maybe I've been a little too evangelical about ACT at the expense of CBT. > > We live and, as they say, we learn! > > Cheers, > Stan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.