Re: Toxic/addictive thinking patterns

July 31, 2011

-- In ACT_for_the_Public , Darrell King wrote:

>

> Having said all that, I do agree with the spirit of your message

> but I think the delivery comes awfully close to over-generalizing

> therapists or psychologists into uncaring charlatans.

It's all a tangle. As you point out, neuroscience is not necessary for

speaking about human behavior or for doing something about it.

Let us leave the poor old brain alone for a while.

Beyond that I don't mean by any stretch of the imagination that all

therapists are charlatans. And I have sympathy for those therapists

who learned a style of therapy (e.g. any of the various psychodynamic

therapies) that is slowly falling out of favor, or who would prefer

to be the author of their approach to therapy rather than a mere

follower of things read in a manual. It must feel good to be able

to work creatively with clients & perhaps this is part of the appeal

of eclecticism.

Which makes me think that ACT ought to have an advantage

for anyone who does in fact want to work creatively; the support

of a strong model most likely allows for the invention of new

techniques, almost on an ad hoc basis, without the therapist

straying very far from the principles being tested in the research.

- R.

August 1, 2011

And the third scenario is: a young woman enters a psychiatrist's office seeking

help for depression. She assumes that the psychiatrist has been trained to

understand, value and use the latest science related to her disorder. The

psychiatrist writes her out a script for anti-depressants and says " if you were

a diabetic you would need to take insulin, look at this anti-depressant in the

same way a diabetic looks at their insulin. Oh - and you may need to take it for

the rest of your life " . I declined.

Kate

> > >>

> > >> I would even go so far as to say that some therapists don't really

> > >> *like* the idea of science - certainly not evidence-based treatment -

> > >

> > > I think you carried your extrapolations a step too

> > > far in this quote, Randy....

> > >

> > > D (a therapist who likes scientific method)

> >

> > Hi Darrell -

> >

> > Actually, it's not an extrapolation. I've personally met therapists

> > who believe that they are the best judge of what works and what

> > doesn't. Meaning they get to pick and choose.

> >

> > And even a quick Google finds concern in the literature about the

> > difficulty in promoting evidence-based interventions, for this &

> > other reasons. E.g. see Kratochwill, T. (2003), " Evidence-based

> > practice: Promoting evidence-based interventions in school

> > psychology " - here is a quick quote from that paper:

> >

> > " The challenges in EBI adoption go to the core of traditional

> > problems surrounding the scientist-practitioner model and the hiatus

> > between research and practice ... Some psychologists may be more

> > influenced by clinical judgment than by research supporting EBIs

> > when designing, implementing, and evaluating their own interventions

> > (, 1996a, 1996b). , McMillen, and Pollio (2003) noted

> > that 'evidence-based practice represents a paradigmatic break with

> > authority-based and idiosyncratic practice methods that have

> > historically characterized social service micro-, meso-, and

> > macropractice interventions' (p. 239). "

> >

> > So it is a genuine issue out there in the wild.

> >

> > - Randy

> >

>

August 1, 2011

And the third scenario is: a young woman enters a psychiatrist's office seeking

help for depression. She assumes that the psychiatrist has been trained to

understand, value and use the latest science related to her disorder. The

psychiatrist writes her out a script for anti-depressants and says " if you were

a diabetic you would need to take insulin, look at this anti-depressant in the

same way a diabetic looks at their insulin. Oh - and you may need to take it for

the rest of your life " . I declined.

Kate

> > >>

> > >> I would even go so far as to say that some therapists don't really

> > >> *like* the idea of science - certainly not evidence-based treatment -

> > >

> > > I think you carried your extrapolations a step too

> > > far in this quote, Randy....

> > >

> > > D (a therapist who likes scientific method)

> >

> > Hi Darrell -

> >

> > Actually, it's not an extrapolation. I've personally met therapists

> > who believe that they are the best judge of what works and what

> > doesn't. Meaning they get to pick and choose.

> >

> > And even a quick Google finds concern in the literature about the

> > difficulty in promoting evidence-based interventions, for this &

> > other reasons. E.g. see Kratochwill, T. (2003), " Evidence-based

> > practice: Promoting evidence-based interventions in school

> > psychology " - here is a quick quote from that paper:

> >

> > " The challenges in EBI adoption go to the core of traditional

> > problems surrounding the scientist-practitioner model and the hiatus

> > between research and practice ... Some psychologists may be more

> > influenced by clinical judgment than by research supporting EBIs

> > when designing, implementing, and evaluating their own interventions

> > (, 1996a, 1996b). , McMillen, and Pollio (2003) noted

> > that 'evidence-based practice represents a paradigmatic break with

> > authority-based and idiosyncratic practice methods that have

> > historically characterized social service micro-, meso-, and

> > macropractice interventions' (p. 239). "

> >

> > So it is a genuine issue out there in the wild.

> >

> > - Randy

> >

>

August 1, 2011

I'm not anti meds and have actually taken anti-depressants a few times over the

years since then and they have helped to some extent. But that psychiatrist's

attitude and pronouncement made me feel so disempowered, like I was being handed

a life sentence with only one hope for parole. I sure was REALLY depressed when

I left her office.

I believe that diabetes/insulin analogy is commonly used by those prescribing

meds but I don't think it is scientifically very sound. As far as I know, it's

never actually been proved that people suffering from depression actually do

have any *deficiency* as such in serotonin or dopamine or whatever (unlike

diabetics and insulin). And based on what I've read about the very limited (in

length and scope) trials that are done with anti-depressants, the scientific

basis for their efficacy is not clear either.

Cheers

Kate

> > > >>

> > > >> I would even go so far as to say that some therapists don't really

> > > >> *like* the idea of science - certainly not evidence-based treatment -

> > > >

> > > > I think you carried your extrapolations a step too

> > > > far in this quote, Randy....

> > > >

> > > > D (a therapist who likes scientific method)

> > >

> > > Hi Darrell -

> > >

> > > Actually, it's not an extrapolation. I've personally met therapists

> > > who believe that they are the best judge of what works and what

> > > doesn't. Meaning they get to pick and choose.

> > >

> > > And even a quick Google finds concern in the literature about the

> > > difficulty in promoting evidence-based interventions, for this &

> > > other reasons. E.g. see Kratochwill, T. (2003), " Evidence-based

> > > practice: Promoting evidence-based interventions in school

> > > psychology " - here is a quick quote from that paper:

> > >

> > > " The challenges in EBI adoption go to the core of traditional

> > > problems surrounding the scientist-practitioner model and the hiatus

> > > between research and practice ... Some psychologists may be more

> > > influenced by clinical judgment than by research supporting EBIs

> > > when designing, implementing, and evaluating their own interventions

> > > (, 1996a, 1996b). , McMillen, and Pollio (2003) noted

> > > that 'evidence-based practice represents a paradigmatic break with

> > > authority-based and idiosyncratic practice methods that have

> > > historically characterized social service micro-, meso-, and

> > > macropractice interventions' (p. 239). "

> > >

> > > So it is a genuine issue out there in the wild.

> > >

> > > - Randy

> > >

> >

>

August 1, 2011

I'm not anti meds and have actually taken anti-depressants a few times over the

years since then and they have helped to some extent. But that psychiatrist's

attitude and pronouncement made me feel so disempowered, like I was being handed

a life sentence with only one hope for parole. I sure was REALLY depressed when

I left her office.

I believe that diabetes/insulin analogy is commonly used by those prescribing

meds but I don't think it is scientifically very sound. As far as I know, it's

never actually been proved that people suffering from depression actually do

have any *deficiency* as such in serotonin or dopamine or whatever (unlike

diabetics and insulin). And based on what I've read about the very limited (in

length and scope) trials that are done with anti-depressants, the scientific

basis for their efficacy is not clear either.

Cheers

Kate

> > > >>

> > > >> I would even go so far as to say that some therapists don't really

> > > >> *like* the idea of science - certainly not evidence-based treatment -

> > > >

> > > > I think you carried your extrapolations a step too

> > > > far in this quote, Randy....

> > > >

> > > > D (a therapist who likes scientific method)

> > >

> > > Hi Darrell -

> > >

> > > Actually, it's not an extrapolation. I've personally met therapists

> > > who believe that they are the best judge of what works and what

> > > doesn't. Meaning they get to pick and choose.

> > >

> > > And even a quick Google finds concern in the literature about the

> > > difficulty in promoting evidence-based interventions, for this &

> > > other reasons. E.g. see Kratochwill, T. (2003), " Evidence-based

> > > practice: Promoting evidence-based interventions in school

> > > psychology " - here is a quick quote from that paper:

> > >

> > > " The challenges in EBI adoption go to the core of traditional

> > > problems surrounding the scientist-practitioner model and the hiatus

> > > between research and practice ... Some psychologists may be more

> > > influenced by clinical judgment than by research supporting EBIs

> > > when designing, implementing, and evaluating their own interventions

> > > (, 1996a, 1996b). , McMillen, and Pollio (2003) noted

> > > that 'evidence-based practice represents a paradigmatic break with

> > > authority-based and idiosyncratic practice methods that have

> > > historically characterized social service micro-, meso-, and

> > > macropractice interventions' (p. 239). "

> > >

> > > So it is a genuine issue out there in the wild.

> > >

> > > - Randy

> > >

> >

>

August 1, 2011

Some people are relieved when I psychiatrist say's to them that that have a

genetic physical illness and that depression is caused by a chemical imballance

in the brain. Now all of a sudden they can sigh with relief and say, I'm not a

week and useless person at all, I'm battling with a genetic disorder, no wonder

I find life so hard.

When I saw a psychiatrist I was all optimistic about how he would help me and I

thought that this mind doctor would was an anylist who help me to sort out my

worries and insecuities, but instead I got told the above and he put me on meds.

The patints who stayed at the psychiatric centre there certainly looked mad, but

I found out years later that all that wriggling, rocking, poking tongues out,and

hopping from foot to foot constantly saying, 'I'm hungry', was cuaused by the

drugs they were on. Most were enormously overweight too.

Now when you are a young man you really want to look your best but these

unfortunate people didn't look actractive at all, so I walked out of the

psychiatrists office with a prescription in my hand frozen with fear and when I

got home I was very subdued. 'So I realy am faulty', I thought, 'there is

something wrong with me but all my friends are fine.' My self esteem plummeted

even further and I sunk into much more into despair and depression and I felt

totally inadequate. Just as worse, the drugs never worked either.

But I kind of new there was something fishy about these theories as my shyness,

feelings of anxiety, and depressing made absolute sense to me because they are

the sort of things you feel when you have felt for most of your life not to be

good enough. And so you can see why these theories were so damaging to me,

further reinforcing my feelings of inadequacy.

I might have recoverd and thought nothing more of it but the drugs went on to

cause permanent damage from which I have never recovered. My anger is so high I

think I could....

Better leave it there.

Kv

> > > >>

> > > >> I would even go so far as to say that some therapists don't really

> > > >> *like* the idea of science - certainly not evidence-based treatment -

> > > >

> > > > I think you carried your extrapolations a step too

> > > > far in this quote, Randy....

> > > >

> > > > D (a therapist who likes scientific method)

> > >

> > > Hi Darrell -

> > >

> > > Actually, it's not an extrapolation. I've personally met therapists

> > > who believe that they are the best judge of what works and what

> > > doesn't. Meaning they get to pick and choose.

> > >

> > > And even a quick Google finds concern in the literature about the

> > > difficulty in promoting evidence-based interventions, for this &

> > > other reasons. E.g. see Kratochwill, T. (2003), " Evidence-based

> > > practice: Promoting evidence-based interventions in school

> > > psychology " - here is a quick quote from that paper:

> > >

> > > " The challenges in EBI adoption go to the core of traditional

> > > problems surrounding the scientist-practitioner model and the hiatus

> > > between research and practice ... Some psychologists may be more

> > > influenced by clinical judgment than by research supporting EBIs

> > > when designing, implementing, and evaluating their own interventions

> > > (, 1996a, 1996b). , McMillen, and Pollio (2003) noted

> > > that 'evidence-based practice represents a paradigmatic break with

> > > authority-based and idiosyncratic practice methods that have

> > > historically characterized social service micro-, meso-, and

> > > macropractice interventions' (p. 239). "

> > >

> > > So it is a genuine issue out there in the wild.

> > >

> > > - Randy

> > >

> >

>

August 1, 2011