Re: Defusion Questions for a Beginner ( a question)

[Guest guest]

Bil and Randy, ur clarifications were amazing.

I have one question though, while i get it, i think there's some where i am

getting confused...

i will use Philip's example..plz don't mind philip. i am using it in the sense,

using this as my own example

neg. thought: " people think i am dumb "

i am gonna skip the " i am having the thought that people think i am dumb part,

coz frankly i have never said that to my self in real time.

my questions r y to do defusion...

the thought " people think i am dumb is immediately followed by some

neg./unpleasant feelings/sensations/emoitions e.g. anxiety, depression,

hopelessness, sadness etc.

these feelings right away generate some seg. self evaluation and judgements

about myself: i am such a failure in the eyes of everyone, i am an anxious

depressed person who is percieved as being dub...i am lost here????....what is

the neg. self evaluation or judgement i am being fused to here????

also if i distance myself from the initial neg. thought that " people think i am

dumb " ..., that simply this is nothing but a thought, and don't buy into the

content of it...but the whole purose of defusion is to be able to expereince the

unpleasant feelings/emotions/sensations )(anxiety/sadness) as they come, when

they come, without strugglign with em, and expereincing them aS excatly what

they r, unpleasant sensations, without being fused to the self evaluation and

judgement what comes with it, so distancing urself from self evaluationa and

judgement....

howveer if u distance ur self from the thought itself, and simply say " this is

just a thought " then how r u makign room to experenice those unpleasant

sensations of anxiety to begin with? once u ditsance urself fromt he thought

like that, those feelings/sensations will go away too.....but isn't the purpose

of this whole thing all about realizing those " unpleasant sensations "

(anxiety/stress/deression) r not " that bad " to begin with once u start

exprencig them in their totality, coz they r memrely a " normal " way of reeacting

to a " perceived " threatehing situation....

i am so sorry for all the confusion....but i believe i get stuck in these 2

areas sometimes...

1) eg. above , what is the neg. self evluation in that eg.

2) let go of thought content, then automattically unpleasant

sendsations/emotions will go, then how to u expreince them inorder to be able to

realize they r not " harmful " afterall.

thank you

wasalaam

[Guest guest]

Bil and Randy, ur clarifications were amazing.

I have one question though, while i get it, i think there's some where i am

getting confused...

i will use Philip's example..plz don't mind philip. i am using it in the sense,

using this as my own example

neg. thought: " people think i am dumb "

i am gonna skip the " i am having the thought that people think i am dumb part,

coz frankly i have never said that to my self in real time.

my questions r y to do defusion...

the thought " people think i am dumb is immediately followed by some

neg./unpleasant feelings/sensations/emoitions e.g. anxiety, depression,

hopelessness, sadness etc.

these feelings right away generate some seg. self evaluation and judgements

about myself: i am such a failure in the eyes of everyone, i am an anxious

depressed person who is percieved as being dub...i am lost here????....what is

the neg. self evaluation or judgement i am being fused to here????

also if i distance myself from the initial neg. thought that " people think i am

dumb " ..., that simply this is nothing but a thought, and don't buy into the

content of it...but the whole purose of defusion is to be able to expereince the

unpleasant feelings/emotions/sensations )(anxiety/sadness) as they come, when

they come, without strugglign with em, and expereincing them aS excatly what

they r, unpleasant sensations, without being fused to the self evaluation and

judgement what comes with it, so distancing urself from self evaluationa and

judgement....

howveer if u distance ur self from the thought itself, and simply say " this is

just a thought " then how r u makign room to experenice those unpleasant

sensations of anxiety to begin with? once u ditsance urself fromt he thought

like that, those feelings/sensations will go away too.....but isn't the purpose

of this whole thing all about realizing those " unpleasant sensations "

(anxiety/stress/deression) r not " that bad " to begin with once u start

exprencig them in their totality, coz they r memrely a " normal " way of reeacting

to a " perceived " threatehing situation....

i am so sorry for all the confusion....but i believe i get stuck in these 2

areas sometimes...

1) eg. above , what is the neg. self evluation in that eg.

2) let go of thought content, then automattically unpleasant

sendsations/emotions will go, then how to u expreince them inorder to be able to

realize they r not " harmful " afterall.

thank you

wasalaam

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

>

> i believe i get stuck in these 2 areas sometimes...

> 1) eg. above, what is the neg. self evluation in that eg.

> 2) let go of thought content, then automatically

> unpleasant sensations/emotions will go, then how do

> u experience them in order to be able to realize they

> r not " harmful " after all.

Hi ,

Not to get all Buddhist here ... but have you ever heard of the

" parable of the poisoned arrow " ? It's probably apocryphal, but it

does speak to the difference between explanation & experience.

I copied the below from dharmaweb.org's article on " Buddhist

Parables and Stories " :

" It is as if a man had been wounded by an arrow thickly smeared with

poison, and his friends and kinsmen were to get a surgeon to heal

him, and he were to say, I will not have this arrow pulled out until

I know by what man I was wounded, whether he is of the warrior

caste, or a brahmin, or of the agricultural, or the lowest caste.

" Or if he were to say, I will not have this arrow pulled out until I

know of what name or family the man is -- or whether he is tall, or

short, or of middle height ...Before knowing all this, that man

would die.

" Similarly, it is not on the view that the world is eternal, that it

is finite, that body and soul are distinct, or that the Buddha

exists after death that a religious life depends. "

In other words, all the theory in the world is not the same as

actually doing something & seeing what happens for yourself.

I'd say, give defusion a try in different ways & see what happens.

And if you still have questions maybe you can put them into the

context of that experience.

- Randy

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

>

> i believe i get stuck in these 2 areas sometimes...

> 1) eg. above, what is the neg. self evluation in that eg.

> 2) let go of thought content, then automatically

> unpleasant sensations/emotions will go, then how do

> u experience them in order to be able to realize they

> r not " harmful " after all.

Hi ,

Not to get all Buddhist here ... but have you ever heard of the

" parable of the poisoned arrow " ? It's probably apocryphal, but it

does speak to the difference between explanation & experience.

I copied the below from dharmaweb.org's article on " Buddhist

Parables and Stories " :

" It is as if a man had been wounded by an arrow thickly smeared with

poison, and his friends and kinsmen were to get a surgeon to heal

him, and he were to say, I will not have this arrow pulled out until

I know by what man I was wounded, whether he is of the warrior

caste, or a brahmin, or of the agricultural, or the lowest caste.

" Or if he were to say, I will not have this arrow pulled out until I

know of what name or family the man is -- or whether he is tall, or

short, or of middle height ...Before knowing all this, that man

would die.

" Similarly, it is not on the view that the world is eternal, that it

is finite, that body and soul are distinct, or that the Buddha

exists after death that a religious life depends. "

In other words, all the theory in the world is not the same as

actually doing something & seeing what happens for yourself.

I'd say, give defusion a try in different ways & see what happens.

And if you still have questions maybe you can put them into the

context of that experience.

- Randy

[Guest guest]

hi randy

thanks for ur reply....i liked reading the buddah story.

personally i have been using defusion myself, and i am able to work with it, as

i have gone through ACT therapy at an intensive anxiety program for a month. BUT

when it comes to trying to explain it to some of my friends who r strugglign

with anxiety and have NO act knowledge, this is where i am getting stuck..coz

this is wherw they r getting confused....

r u trying to tell me in ur email that don't egt caught up in the nitty gritty

details?

when i am actually experacing the anxiety, i never do...it is very simple for

me...i don't even say to myself " i am having a though " coz frankly speaking when

an anxiety atatck/panic attack kicks in, all forms of rational talks and thiking

is out the window...

so here's what i do...i notice i just had an uncomfortable thought which

instantly brought about the anxiety attack. then i say to myself this attack

doesn't prove anything about myself (doesn't prove i look embarassing face all

red and sweating, trembling, doesn't prove i am a weak person, it proves nothing

to anyone excapt that fact that sarah " looks " anxious AT THIS MOMEMT...

when i defuse from the evalutaion, then i can just let that sensation BE and

leave my body at it's course of time...

it has alaso worked for me when when the anxiety attacks happens, i embrace the

feeelings/sensations with open arms, coz unless i let it come, it won't be able

to go (but go i don't mean rid) i mean the nature course of coming and leaving,

before hand, when i know i am about to enter a situations will will definately

provoke my anxiety, i say to myself inorder to expreince happinesss or a full

meaniful life, i ahvat be able to expreince all the human emotions (pleasant and

unpleasant) as they come, along the way....so sarah here;s ur chance to be open

and willing to do just that...expereince it aall at the moment.

randy am i making any sense? and is this what u meant when u asked me to give my

own example?

[Guest guest]

hi randy

thanks for ur reply....i liked reading the buddah story.

personally i have been using defusion myself, and i am able to work with it, as

i have gone through ACT therapy at an intensive anxiety program for a month. BUT

when it comes to trying to explain it to some of my friends who r strugglign

with anxiety and have NO act knowledge, this is where i am getting stuck..coz

this is wherw they r getting confused....

r u trying to tell me in ur email that don't egt caught up in the nitty gritty

details?

when i am actually experacing the anxiety, i never do...it is very simple for

me...i don't even say to myself " i am having a though " coz frankly speaking when

an anxiety atatck/panic attack kicks in, all forms of rational talks and thiking

is out the window...

so here's what i do...i notice i just had an uncomfortable thought which

instantly brought about the anxiety attack. then i say to myself this attack

doesn't prove anything about myself (doesn't prove i look embarassing face all

red and sweating, trembling, doesn't prove i am a weak person, it proves nothing

to anyone excapt that fact that sarah " looks " anxious AT THIS MOMEMT...

when i defuse from the evalutaion, then i can just let that sensation BE and

leave my body at it's course of time...

it has alaso worked for me when when the anxiety attacks happens, i embrace the

feeelings/sensations with open arms, coz unless i let it come, it won't be able

to go (but go i don't mean rid) i mean the nature course of coming and leaving,

before hand, when i know i am about to enter a situations will will definately

provoke my anxiety, i say to myself inorder to expreince happinesss or a full

meaniful life, i ahvat be able to expreince all the human emotions (pleasant and

unpleasant) as they come, along the way....so sarah here;s ur chance to be open

and willing to do just that...expereince it aall at the moment.

randy am i making any sense? and is this what u meant when u asked me to give my

own example?

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

So actually it sounds like your concern is not so much for yourself,

but finding a way to explain defusion to friends who might benefit?

If so, I can tell you that I find it very hard to explain this stuff to my

own friends. What I do is this: if someone is really curious, I

recommend a book to them & they can take it from there. The book

will do a better job than I can, and they can take it at their own pace.

Which is why, in fact, I couldn't look up defusion techniques in

" The Happiness Trap " before posting to Philip - only a few weeks

ago I lent my copy to a friend! And I am happy to report that my

friend has found the book so helpful that she is buying her own

copy & will shortly be able to return my copy to me. She is sold

on the exercises. And I'm sure the book did a much, much better

job explaining things than I could have.

It's true that on this list we try & explain things to each other - but

almost always the context is that someone has already read one

of the books & has additional questions. That is so much easier to

work with than trying to explain the whole shebang from the beginning!

Hope this helps -

Randy

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

So actually it sounds like your concern is not so much for yourself,

but finding a way to explain defusion to friends who might benefit?

If so, I can tell you that I find it very hard to explain this stuff to my

own friends. What I do is this: if someone is really curious, I

recommend a book to them & they can take it from there. The book

will do a better job than I can, and they can take it at their own pace.

Which is why, in fact, I couldn't look up defusion techniques in

" The Happiness Trap " before posting to Philip - only a few weeks

ago I lent my copy to a friend! And I am happy to report that my

friend has found the book so helpful that she is buying her own

copy & will shortly be able to return my copy to me. She is sold

on the exercises. And I'm sure the book did a much, much better

job explaining things than I could have.

It's true that on this list we try & explain things to each other - but

almost always the context is that someone has already read one

of the books & has additional questions. That is so much easier to

work with than trying to explain the whole shebang from the beginning!

Hope this helps -

Randy

[Guest guest]

yes ur email was helpful. thank you randy.

I have just started reading the ACT books. Get out of ur mind i am half way

trhough. And the Hapinesss trap is what i am reading right now.

So whatever knowledge i have of ACT is actually all from the intensive (3 1/2hr.

a day/ 5 days a week for a month) therapy i had last month. And the same

therapy i went through last year in the sumer too for 3 weeks.

they also use a lotta act books and exercises from a lotta diff books, inlcusinf

the 2 mentioned above

I was fortunate to have the best therapists, at the best anxiety pogram, and

hence able to apply ACT in my life successfully. and accomplised huge

milestones.

Now when i am going through the books, for myself (and for my freinds),

somtimes i get lost in the words and meannings. Perhaps coz i have never been

into reading (until now), so if it's not very simple yet detailed

explanations(like my therapsists used to do), , i zone out (unintentinally).....

however ur posts have been extremely helpful to me since i have joined the

group. The way u reply is exactly the way my therapsits would talk or answer. so

i always get it instantly. hence i always read how u reply to peoples posts

here...in some way or the other either i can relate to the struggle or i have a

freind who is going through the same struggle as someone whos posts here . and

ur replies give me the answers as they make sense to me. ..so thank you randy

p.s. i have not been successful in convincig my freinds to read an ACT

book...they still keep coming back to me for help/support and thats when i get

overwhelmed, and don't know how to help, coz the way i help is ACT form, BUT i

am not a therapist, and i am not very articulate. i am simply someone who has

the same struggle hence can relate to them, and am a good listener. they r all

already seeking therapy themselves yet apparenlty it's not helping much, for

some not at all...