Re: Willingness without fusion is difficult with strong pain

[Guest guest]

Hi Marty,

What is the underlying value of choosing moderation with food? You might consider drilling down to the most-inclusive value that choosing moderation is a part of. For example, I find that framing my values in terms of "being xxx" instead of "doing xxx" gets me closer to my core values. For example, "being" in good physical health may represent the value that "doing" moderation with food is in service of. In other words, moderation with food may be how you accomplish the underlying value of being healthy. "Being connected with others" rather than "joining a social club" is another example of stating a core value. Values are usually not actions; they are overall guideposts in our lives that tell us which direction to go as we move with our hands and feet (act).

Just my thoughts ... and I hope this isn't confusing! It's not so much the words we use to state our values as it is the steps we take toward them. However, I found the "Being vs Doing" guideline very helpful in determining my core values and thought it might be useful to you as well.

Helena

From: " Kirschen" <martinkirschen>To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2011 1:52:47 PMSubject: Willingness without fusion is difficult with strong pain

I read that when I have a painful experience - due to the desire to eat and when I try to resist overeating I can feel hunger pains and tell myself I am suffering. Through ACT I learn that I can accept my pain and not call it suffering. And the action of enduring the pain comes from willingness (the action that comes from acceptance). Well this can be so strong, that it is difficult to adjust my thoughts to ones other than fusion.And very much related to this, when I - further on in the process - look at my values and choose one to be 'moderation' or 'moderation with food' - I then have chose a path, a process. I can then set up a short term goal - lets say to be moderate with eating from breakfast through lunch .... I am advised through the program to become committed and do it as fully and well as possible .... Again as with the first paragraph I can accept that this will be difficult and I can employ willingness to make the effort to follow through .... And suppose, because this is so painiful to do, I get into the / willingness process again .... and again it is difficult to express to myself emotions or thoughts in a defused manner.Marty K

[Guest guest]

I wanted to add something that seems important to me when it comes to the words we use for values vs. the actions we take or goals we set up in service of our values.

To use Marty's example, if you say "moderation with food" is a value, then I think you may be setting yourself up for a feeling of failing at your values since you may not accomplish moderation every time you eat. Have you failed at your value then? I don't think so; I think the value was mis-named. By naming it for what it really is, e.g., "physical health" you may make many mistakes in service of that value, but you have not failed in your values work. You can't fail at having a value (although they can change over time). You can make mistakes in the actions you take or don't take in service of your values, but you cannot fail at your values work unless you do NOTHING. Missteps and mistakes are human and are not indicative of failure!

That is why, to me, it is important to differentiate between the words you use for values vs. goals. Does that make sense?Helena

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2011 2:23:10 PMSubject: Re: Willingness without fusion is difficult with strong pain

Hi Marty,

What is the underlying value of choosing moderation with food? You might consider drilling down to the most-inclusive value that choosing moderation is a part of. For example, I find that framing my values in terms of "being xxx" instead of "doing xxx" gets me closer to my core values. For example, "being" in good physical health may represent the value that "doing" moderation with food is in service of. In other words, moderation with food may be how you accomplish the underlying value of being healthy. "Being connected with others" rather than "joining a social club" is another example of stating a core value. Values are usually not actions; they are overall guideposts in our lives that tell us which direction to go as we move with our hands and feet (act).

Just my thoughts ... and I hope this isn't confusing! It's not so much the words we use to state our values as it is the steps we take toward them. However, I found the "Being vs Doing" guideline very helpful in determining my core values and thought it might be useful to you as well.

Helena

From: " Kirschen" <martinkirschen>To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2011 1:52:47 PMSubject: Willingness without fusion is difficult with strong pain

I read that when I have a painful experience - due to the desire to eat and when I try to resist overeating I can feel hunger pains and tell myself I am suffering. Through ACT I learn that I can accept my pain and not call it suffering. And the action of enduring the pain comes from willingness (the action that comes from acceptance). Well this can be so strong, that it is difficult to adjust my thoughts to ones other than fusion.And very much related to this, when I - further on in the process - look at my values and choose one to be 'moderation' or 'moderation with food' - I then have chose a path, a process. I can then set up a short term goal - lets say to be moderate with eating from breakfast through lunch .... I am advised through the program to become committed and do it as fully and well as possible .... Again as with the first paragraph I can accept that this will be difficult and I can employ willingness to make the effort to follow through .... And suppose, because this is so painiful to do, I get into the / willingness process again .... and again it is difficult to express to myself emotions or thoughts in a defused manner.Marty K

[Guest guest]

I wanted to add something that seems important to me when it comes to the words we use for values vs. the actions we take or goals we set up in service of our values.

To use Marty's example, if you say "moderation with food" is a value, then I think you may be setting yourself up for a feeling of failing at your values since you may not accomplish moderation every time you eat. Have you failed at your value then? I don't think so; I think the value was mis-named. By naming it for what it really is, e.g., "physical health" you may make many mistakes in service of that value, but you have not failed in your values work. You can't fail at having a value (although they can change over time). You can make mistakes in the actions you take or don't take in service of your values, but you cannot fail at your values work unless you do NOTHING. Missteps and mistakes are human and are not indicative of failure!

That is why, to me, it is important to differentiate between the words you use for values vs. goals. Does that make sense?Helena

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2011 2:23:10 PMSubject: Re: Willingness without fusion is difficult with strong pain

Hi Marty,

What is the underlying value of choosing moderation with food? You might consider drilling down to the most-inclusive value that choosing moderation is a part of. For example, I find that framing my values in terms of "being xxx" instead of "doing xxx" gets me closer to my core values. For example, "being" in good physical health may represent the value that "doing" moderation with food is in service of. In other words, moderation with food may be how you accomplish the underlying value of being healthy. "Being connected with others" rather than "joining a social club" is another example of stating a core value. Values are usually not actions; they are overall guideposts in our lives that tell us which direction to go as we move with our hands and feet (act).

Just my thoughts ... and I hope this isn't confusing! It's not so much the words we use to state our values as it is the steps we take toward them. However, I found the "Being vs Doing" guideline very helpful in determining my core values and thought it might be useful to you as well.

Helena

From: " Kirschen" <martinkirschen>To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2011 1:52:47 PMSubject: Willingness without fusion is difficult with strong pain

I read that when I have a painful experience - due to the desire to eat and when I try to resist overeating I can feel hunger pains and tell myself I am suffering. Through ACT I learn that I can accept my pain and not call it suffering. And the action of enduring the pain comes from willingness (the action that comes from acceptance). Well this can be so strong, that it is difficult to adjust my thoughts to ones other than fusion.And very much related to this, when I - further on in the process - look at my values and choose one to be 'moderation' or 'moderation with food' - I then have chose a path, a process. I can then set up a short term goal - lets say to be moderate with eating from breakfast through lunch .... I am advised through the program to become committed and do it as fully and well as possible .... Again as with the first paragraph I can accept that this will be difficult and I can employ willingness to make the effort to follow through .... And suppose, because this is so painiful to do, I get into the / willingness process again .... and again it is difficult to express to myself emotions or thoughts in a defused manner.Marty K

[Guest guest]

Hi Helena, that is very helpful. By stating it in a more primary, personal way

it is really stated as a -want, desire, wish- which need not be acted on ....

is that correct. Does that mean it is stated in a more defused way? .... Also

what about the pain part, if it does come up ... how do I experience pain and

yet still have defusion?

Thanks so much from a beginner,

Marty

>

>

>

> I wanted to add something that seems important to me when it comes to the

words we use for values vs. the actions we take or goals we set up in service

of our values. 

>

>  

>

> To use Marty's example, if you say " moderation with food " is a value, then I

think you may be setting yourself up for a feeling of failing at your values

since you may not accomplish moderation every time you eat.  Have you failed

at your value then?  I don't think so; I think the value was mis-named. 

By naming it for what it really is, e.g.,  " physical health " you may make many

mistakes in service of that value, but you have not failed in your values

work. You can't fail at having a value (although they can change over

time).  You can make mistakes in the actions you take or don't take in service

of your values, but you cannot fail at your values work unless you do

NOTHING.  Missteps and mistakes are human and are not indicative of failure!

>

>  

>

> That is why, to me, it is important to differentiate between the words you use

for values vs. goals.  Does that make sense?

>

> Helena

>

>

> Willingness without fusion is difficult with

strong pain

>

>  

>

>

>

>

> I read that when I have a painful experience - due to the desire to eat and

when I try to resist overeating I can feel hunger pains and tell myself I am

suffering. Through ACT I learn that I can accept my pain and not call it

suffering. And the action of enduring the pain comes from willingness (the

action that comes from acceptance). Well this can be so strong, that it is

difficult to adjust my thoughts to ones other than fusion.

>

> And very much related to this, when I - further on in the process - look at my

values and choose one to be 'moderation' or 'moderation with food' - I then have

chose a path, a process. I can then set up a short term goal - lets say to be

moderate with eating from breakfast through lunch .... I am advised through the

program to become committed and do it as fully and well as possible .... Again

as with the first paragraph I can accept that this will be difficult and I can

employ willingness to make the effort to follow through .... And suppose,

because this is so painiful to do, I get into the / willingness process again

..... and again it is difficult to express to myself emotions or thoughts in a

defused manner.

>

> Marty K

>

[Guest guest]

salaamz:-)

martin i really liked some of the things you mentioned in your email

<<<Through ACT I learn that I can accept my pain and not call it suffering.>>>

i remember my first time around in therapy with my therapist Joann. we learnt

the diff. between pain= what u feel at that very moment when u expereince it,

vs. suferring= dwelling over past actions, or worrying about future actions.

Suffering is in our control. for how long we choose to suffer. Willing to accept

or open ourselves up to the pain of the moment is what decreased the period of

suffering.

<<<<Well this can be so strong, that it is difficult to adjust my thoughts to

ones other than fusion.>>>

martin this part i am not quite sure i understand. When uncomfortable thoughts

and feelings and sensations r popping up while resisting overeating, the fact

that u r practising willingness and acceptance of the unplasant sensations,

shows that u r practising willingness and acceptance of the thoughts that come

with it to...If u were fused then how would u be accepting and willing? That

shows you r holding the thoughts and feelings lightly enough where they r not

influencing ur action. As clearly ur action is not being determined by it every

time u r resisting.

Initially this would feel strong and painful, coz it's a new technique, though

willingness and acceptance is very simply in some ways, is it NOT at all easy.

When we learn about ACT methodology in the begining we struggle with the whole

process, it is absolutely normal and natural. i went through my own share of

struggles. There was a time when i kept going back to the therapists saying i am

willing, i am accepting, but i am sooo depressed doing it, it's not making me

feel free, it's not making me feel good, y am i so sad even though i am doing

what i am supposed to do???

Then a week later i realized i was still sorta struggling with the

acceptance...it was more of a 'grudging' tolerance of the discomfort and pain

(feelings/thoughts/emotions)rather than a complete true acceptance, not a

surrender but more like a expansion to give this as much room as it needed.

once the tolerance of the discomfort/pain increased, the willingness to have it

whenevr it came along incraesed, and the acceptance of it to whatever intensity

it came with incrasesed. Once that increased, there, there was my feeling of

being free..not free of anxiety, but free WITH anxiety:-)...

also remember to show some compassion towards urself when ur willing and

accepting the pain. Compassion is the key. compassion incrasesses the

willingness to accept.

i love the way u broke down your actions into short term goals, and provided a

step by step on what you do.

Helena, jazakallah khair for clarifying the deiff. between goals and values and

sometimes how we do get confused and set up valuues, that could fail coz we set

up actions instead of a direction.

i wanted to write more, but i havta run pick up my 6 yr old. i apologize if my

post made no sense and was more confusing martin...whenever i write, i always

have a 3 yr old giving loud commantry in the backgroud, so sometimes i cannot

even recollect my thoughts...

but as a begininer looks like u a doing fabulously and really undertsanding act

principles well...from personal experince ACT is the way to get ur life back

together , to me, the only way,:-) ! it is the most humane and most

compassionte way of dealing with ur personal struggle, ...it is not a cure, but

it provied with center of calm within u, like an anchor that holds, it teaches u

how to hold steady in the midst of a storm until the storm passes.

wasalaam:-)

[Guest guest]

Helena, ,

You have both been very helpful ... thank you ....

You have expressed what I intuit but was not ready to fully

understand or express.

In order to be more healthy and happy (value) I will read one of the books on

ACT and Eating (Goal) .... I will start by reading with full effort at least one

chapter in the first week. so there!

> >

> >

> >

> > I wanted to add something that seems important to me when it comes to the

words we use for values vs. the actions we take or goals we set up in service

of our values. 

> >

> >  

> >

> > To use Marty's example, if you say " moderation with food " is a value, then I

think you may be setting yourself up for a feeling of failing at your

values since you may not accomplish moderation every time you eat.  Have

you failed at your value then?  I don't think so; I think the value was

mis-named.  By naming it for what it really is, e.g.,  " physical health "

you may make many mistakes in service of that value, but you have not

failed in your values work. You can't fail at having a value (although

they can change over time).  You can make mistakes in the actions you take

or don't take in service of your values, but you cannot fail at your

values work unless you do NOTHING.  Missteps and mistakes are human and are

not indicative of failure!

> >

> >  

> >

> > That is why, to me, it is important to differentiate between the words you

use for values vs. goals.  Does that make sense?

> >

> > Helena

> >

> >

> > Willingness without fusion is difficult with

strong pain

> >

> >  

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I read that when I have a painful experience - due to the desire to eat and

when I try to resist overeating I can feel hunger pains and tell myself I am

suffering. Through ACT I learn that I can accept my pain and not call it

suffering. And the action of enduring the pain comes from willingness (the

action that comes from acceptance). Well this can be so strong, that it is

difficult to adjust my thoughts to ones other than fusion.

> >

> > And very much related to this, when I - further on in the process - look at

my values and choose one to be 'moderation' or 'moderation with food' - I then

have chose a path, a process. I can then set up a short term goal - lets say to

be moderate with eating from breakfast through lunch .... I am advised through

the program to become committed and do it as fully and well as possible ....

Again as with the first paragraph I can accept that this will be difficult and I

can employ willingness to make the effort to follow through .... And suppose,

because this is so painiful to do, I get into the / willingness process again

..... and again it is difficult to express to myself emotions or thoughts in a

defused manner.

> >

> > Marty K

> >

>

[Guest guest]

This thread says so many important things, thanks to all of you for your

resposne. I can see how ACT has given all of you a new way of thinking. I am

definetly a newbie.

Before reading the comment on accepting pain, I didnt realize by accepting the

short term pain I would help stop the suffering in my head.

I must go back and reread the defusion words that Helena wrote,

Acceptance

........ just allow it to be there;

Voice your acceptance

accept it in the moment. " It's OK if I am feeling discomfort right

Voice your intention

I do this in honor of my value to < fill in the blanks >; for example, in

honor of my value to be physically healthy, if that's what it is.

Thank you , all

Lin

[Guest guest]

Tomorrow is my night off where I am allowed to be bad and I shall be have some large battered garlic mushrooms with large chips (I'm a vegan) from my local fish and chip shop - no trans fatty acids, garanteed. And my girlfriend will have fish and chips. If you ever visit England try some Cod and chips from the local 'chippy', it's amazing. After that I'm down the pub for a three pints of Fuller's London Pride (my girfriend puts the blockers on me having more -damn it!) after which I won't have a care in the world, at least for a while. With all that fat running around my body I'm finally satiated for once.

I'm beggining to think my body craves fat for good reason and so perhaps I will go back to some coconut oil. It is supposed to be non fattening and is good for the arteries too, because it is the wrong type of saturated fat for cholestorol (so they say). Sounds fine to me and so I'm up for it (gullible as I am).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2008/jan/15/healthandwellbeing.foodanddrink

Kv

> >> > I read that when I have a painful experience - due to the desire to> eat and when I try to resist overeating I can feel hunger pains and tell> myself I am suffering. Through ACT I learn that I can accept my pain and> not call it suffering. And the action of enduring the pain comes from> willingness (the action that comes from acceptance). Well this can be so> strong, that it is difficult to adjust my thoughts to ones other than> fusion.> >> > And very much related to this, when I - further on in the process -> look at my values and choose one to be 'moderation' or 'moderation with> food' - I then have chose a path, a process. I can then set up a short> term goal - lets say to be moderate with eating from breakfast through> lunch .... I am advised through the program to become committed and do> it as fully and well as possible .... Again as with the first paragraph> I can accept that this will be difficult and I can employ willingness to> make the effort to follow through .... And suppose, because this is so> painiful to do, I get into the / willingness process again .... and> again it is difficult to express to myself emotions or thoughts in a> defused manner.> >> > Marty K> >>

[Guest guest]

Tomorrow is my night off where I am allowed to be bad and I shall be have some large battered garlic mushrooms with large chips (I'm a vegan) from my local fish and chip shop - no trans fatty acids, garanteed. And my girlfriend will have fish and chips. If you ever visit England try some Cod and chips from the local 'chippy', it's amazing. After that I'm down the pub for a three pints of Fuller's London Pride (my girfriend puts the blockers on me having more -damn it!) after which I won't have a care in the world, at least for a while. With all that fat running around my body I'm finally satiated for once.

I'm beggining to think my body craves fat for good reason and so perhaps I will go back to some coconut oil. It is supposed to be non fattening and is good for the arteries too, because it is the wrong type of saturated fat for cholestorol (so they say). Sounds fine to me and so I'm up for it (gullible as I am).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2008/jan/15/healthandwellbeing.foodanddrink

Kv

> >> > I read that when I have a painful experience - due to the desire to> eat and when I try to resist overeating I can feel hunger pains and tell> myself I am suffering. Through ACT I learn that I can accept my pain and> not call it suffering. And the action of enduring the pain comes from> willingness (the action that comes from acceptance). Well this can be so> strong, that it is difficult to adjust my thoughts to ones other than> fusion.> >> > And very much related to this, when I - further on in the process -> look at my values and choose one to be 'moderation' or 'moderation with> food' - I then have chose a path, a process. I can then set up a short> term goal - lets say to be moderate with eating from breakfast through> lunch .... I am advised through the program to become committed and do> it as fully and well as possible .... Again as with the first paragraph> I can accept that this will be difficult and I can employ willingness to> make the effort to follow through .... And suppose, because this is so> painiful to do, I get into the / willingness process again .... and> again it is difficult to express to myself emotions or thoughts in a> defused manner.> >> > Marty K> >>