Mindfulness

August 27, 2011

I'm struggling with the mindfulness vs. obsession. Basically, I'm

always mindful of my anxiety and depression. I feel like this keeps me

in my mind rather than in my life but my feelings are always in my

consciousness. Any thoughts on mindfulness vs. losing yourself in the

moment would be very helpful to me right now. When I am mindful, I am

acknowledging that there's nothing wrong and everything is OK but I

don't seem to believe it. Counter-thoughts keep coming up that make me

feel worse. In the present moment, all I feel is anxiety and/or

depression.

Thanks,

Bruce

August 27, 2011

Bruce,

Here's what I think is going on: when you say you are " always

mindful of my anxiety and depression, " what this suggests

to me is that what you are really " mindful " of, in the sense

that you are noticing it and buying into it, is your ongoing

evaluation of uncomfortable thoughts and emotions as being

not only uncomfortable, but " bad. " And there are probably

all sorts of other judgments wrapped up in there that you are

not necessarily explicitly aware of, but that are likewise

evaluations.

In other words, feeling uncomfortable is " always on your mind "

in the sense that you are very aware that you feel uncomfortable,

and you are totally bonding with this sense of " it's bad. " You

are stuck in the judging / evaluating frame of mind that we

all are capable of and that, absent learning any new skills,

we continue to trust as somehow representing what is " real "

and " important. "

That's not what is meant by mindfulness. But I have the feeling

that being told about mindfulness directly will not be very

helpful for you. You have probably read about it, either in

books or on this list, a zillion times already. Whatever I

write here is going to go straight to that judging/evaluating

mechanism that you have entrusted with your life, and it is

going to get judged and evaluated all over again.

Over and over and over. Round and round and round.

I know what it's like. Believe me. I get on that little

gerbil wheel made of evaluations a LOT. I was on it yesterday

and early today till I remembered (again) that my experience

is my experience, nothing more or less.

Here's what I would suggest: If you haven't already, start

a meditation practice centered around something like watching

your breath, or counting from 1 to 10 with your breath, etc.

You can find good instructions in a basic Zen or Vispanna book,

or in " Get Out of Your Mind " for that matter. I would do it

for about 10 minutes a day at first, and I would keep at it

for several weeks at a minimum.

Try and do it not to " get rid of those uncomfortable thoughts

and feelings " or to " get it right " or anything like that. The

instructions for counting your breath, for example, are just

to count from 1 to 10 with each inhale - 1 on the first inhale,

2 on the first exhale, on up to 10, and then start over. Keep

your eyes open if you like. If a thought shows up, let it -

don't follow after it and don't push it away either; just let

it show up, and then return your attention to the next breath

and the next number. If you find you have gotten sucked into

following a thought, no problem: once you notice this, gently

place your attention back on your breath and the count.

The idea is that by having a neutral focus that you can put

your attention on, and by making that what you are " doing, "

you can start experiencing other stuff as it comes and goes

without needing to follow it. You have something else to follow

instead of your evaluations: the count and the breath. Out of

that may slowly emerge a different experience. Let whatever

emerges do so, without any expectations. And if you find you

have an expectation, that's OK too - expectations are also

thoughts, and so you can let the thought of an expectation

come as it is and then return your attention gently to the

count and the breath.

Over and over and over. But this is a different " over and

over " than getting trapped in your evaluations and thinking

that those evaluations represent " mindfulness. " This over

and over is learning something new.

I really suggest you do this for a few weeks, or something

like it. Your habitual thoughts may say it's a waste of time

and that you already know what will happen. You can put those

sorts of thoughts in charge if you like. I often put all kinds

of thoughts in charge of my life until eventually I notice

that's what I'm doing and return control to myself.

If you do mindfulness meditation for a few weeks - or even

for a week - let us know what happens. Or if you have already

tried a meditation practice and your experience wasn't

successful, let us know that too and maybe someone will have

a suggestion about how to try again with more success.

Good luck,

Randy

August 27, 2011

Nowadays, as I'm so tired, I only go out dancing at the weekends. My job is

killing me and going out in the week is a no no because getting up at 5 am in

the morning in so diffiicult at the best of times.

I'm on holiday and so on Thursday evening I went to dance lesson and it was

really nice. There was only a few people there and everyone was so friendly.

After the lesson the club started and the music wasn't too loud or too energetic

so we could practice the new moves we had learnt and I danced with all the

lovely women there. Some were new to dancing so I was real gentle with them and

it felt lovely. To my amazement I found that my dancing was still quite good and

the girls loved it, so I started to really enjoy myself.

I had two beers over the evening which I drank so slowly I hardly felt anything.

I don't normally drink at dancing lessons because of work the next day but I'm

on holiday so I made an exception. Shocking it may be, the beer took some of the

stress out of my body and I thoughly enjoyed myself that night.

I became immersed with dancing and the fun of it forgoting about my problems for

a while and I then became aware of how focused I am on myself and all my

probblems all the time. Even when I am home playing my guitar and keyboards I

never stop thinking about my pain and I never stop hating everything that is

wrong. The dancing was a real eye opener because I saw how immersing myself in a

physical activity that I really enjoy might be the way out of all this. I felt

that I needed to absorb myself more into life to the point where I forget about

what is wrong far more often.

Some people might consider this to be avoiding, but dancing was fabulous fun for

me that night. I also thought of swimming too and how I often forget myself this

way as well. But cycling and running doesn't do this anymore because I use it

for self development, i.e, I am using it purely to lower anxiety and depression

(i.e, escape) and the fun has gone out of it.

So I need to forget myself more and just go out and enjoy things instead. Gay

abandon, Wow! I know this is the answer and beer is not important. I'm too

inward looking and self absorbed always trying to escape, no wonder nothing

changes. I have become trapped without realising it.

Kv

>

> I'm struggling with the mindfulness vs. obsession. Basically, I'm

> always mindful of my anxiety and depression. I feel like this keeps me

> in my mind rather than in my life but my feelings are always in my

> consciousness. Any thoughts on mindfulness vs. losing yourself in the

> moment would be very helpful to me right now. When I am mindful, I am

> acknowledging that there's nothing wrong and everything is OK but I

> don't seem to believe it. Counter-thoughts keep coming up that make me

> feel worse. In the present moment, all I feel is anxiety and/or

> depression.

>

> Thanks,

> Bruce

>

August 27, 2011

You may as well have written that for me, Randy.I've started to try to work with Get Out of Your Mind, and have had trouble just getting past the part where one writes one's "Suffering Inventory". I wrote the first thing that came to mind and "lost it" -- deep, wracking sobbing at the realization that what I'd written represented a thread that has run through my entire life.The upshot being, that experience was a kind of nadir I didn't (and don't) want to re-experience; my everyday misery seems preferable to that. But regardless of what I may prefer, that experience has opened some can of worms I'm having trouble putting a lid on. I'm a nervous wreck, chain-smoking and resorting to alcohol; the low-dose Valium the doctor prescribed seem useless, so I've stopped taking them. Yet even the booze has little effect in stopping the incessant pain in my head. At this point counting breaths only leads me to a kind of hyperventilating. The result being a feeling of light-headedness that vanishes within minutes of my stopping.I'm wishing I could go to sleep and either not wake up, or wake up in a different place.Michieux>> Bruce, > > Here's what I think is going on: when you say you are "always > mindful of my anxiety and depression," what this suggests > to me is that what you are really "mindful" of, in the sense> that you are noticing it and buying into it, is your ongoing > evaluation of uncomfortable thoughts and emotions as being > not only uncomfortable, but "bad." And there are probably > all sorts of other judgments wrapped up in there that you are > not necessarily explicitly aware of, but that are likewise > evaluations. > > In other words, feeling uncomfortable is "always on your mind" > in the sense that you are very aware that you feel uncomfortable, > and you are totally bonding with this sense of "it's bad." You > are stuck in the judging / evaluating frame of mind that we > all are capable of and that, absent learning any new skills, > we continue to trust as somehow representing what is "real" > and "important." > > That's not what is meant by mindfulness. But I have the feeling > that being told about mindfulness directly will not be very > helpful for you. You have probably read about it, either in > books or on this list, a zillion times already. Whatever I > write here is going to go straight to that judging/evaluating > mechanism that you have entrusted with your life, and it is > going to get judged and evaluated all over again. > > Over and over and over. Round and round and round. > > I know what it's like. Believe me. I get on that little > gerbil wheel made of evaluations a LOT. I was on it yesterday > and early today till I remembered (again) that my experience > is my experience, nothing more or less. > > Here's what I would suggest: If you haven't already, start > a meditation practice centered around something like watching > your breath, or counting from 1 to 10 with your breath, etc. > You can find good instructions in a basic Zen or Vispanna book, > or in "Get Out of Your Mind" for that matter. I would do it > for about 10 minutes a day at first, and I would keep at it > for several weeks at a minimum. > > Try and do it not to "get rid of those uncomfortable thoughts > and feelings" or to "get it right" or anything like that. The > instructions for counting your breath, for example, are just > to count from 1 to 10 with each inhale - 1 on the first inhale, > 2 on the first exhale, on up to 10, and then start over. Keep > your eyes open if you like. If a thought shows up, let it - > don't follow after it and don't push it away either; just let > it show up, and then return your attention to the next breath > and the next number. If you find you have gotten sucked into > following a thought, no problem: once you notice this, gently > place your attention back on your breath and the count. > > The idea is that by having a neutral focus that you can put > your attention on, and by making that what you are "doing," > you can start experiencing other stuff as it comes and goes > without needing to follow it. You have something else to follow > instead of your evaluations: the count and the breath. Out of > that may slowly emerge a different experience. Let whatever > emerges do so, without any expectations. And if you find you > have an expectation, that's OK too - expectations are also > thoughts, and so you can let the thought of an expectation > come as it is and then return your attention gently to the > count and the breath. > > Over and over and over. But this is a different "over and > over" than getting trapped in your evaluations and thinking > that those evaluations represent "mindfulness." This over > and over is learning something new. > > I really suggest you do this for a few weeks, or something > like it. Your habitual thoughts may say it's a waste of time > and that you already know what will happen. You can put those > sorts of thoughts in charge if you like. I often put all kinds > of thoughts in charge of my life until eventually I notice > that's what I'm doing and return control to myself. > > If you do mindfulness meditation for a few weeks - or even > for a week - let us know what happens. Or if you have already > tried a meditation practice and your experience wasn't > successful, let us know that too and maybe someone will have > a suggestion about how to try again with more success. > > Good luck, > Randy>

August 27, 2011

I feel like such an utter fraud.I want to die. But not like this (looking at Wikipedia "best suicide method").I want to live, but not like this.It's a win for the least text. I can hardly compute what you wrote. But the wiki page is fucking worse when what I want is fucking simple.For now I trust you because somewhere, sometime you wrote something that gave me a little bit of hope.It's not your fault.Thanks.> > >> > > Bruce,> > >> > > Here's what I think is going on: when you say you are "always> > > mindful of my anxiety and depression," what this suggests> > > to me is that what you are really "mindful" of, in the sense> > > that you are noticing it and buying into it, is your ongoing> > > evaluation of uncomfortable thoughts and emotions as being> > > not only uncomfortable, but "bad." And there are probably> > > all sorts of other judgments wrapped up in there that you are> > > not necessarily explicitly aware of, but that are likewise> > > evaluations.> > >> > > In other words, feeling uncomfortable is "always on your mind"> > > in the sense that you are very aware that you feel uncomfortable,> > > and you are totally bonding with this sense of "it's bad." You> > > are stuck in the judging / evaluating frame of mind that we> > > all are capable of and that, absent learning any new skills,> > > we continue to trust as somehow representing what is "real"> > > and "important."> > >> > > That's not what is meant by mindfulness. But I have the feeling> > > that being told about mindfulness directly will not be very> > > helpful for you. You have probably read about it, either in> > > books or on this list, a zillion times already. Whatever I> > > write here is going to go straight to that judging/evaluating> > > mechanism that you have entrusted with your life, and it is> > > going to get judged and evaluated all over again.> > >> > > Over and over and over. Round and round and round.> > >> > > I know what it's like. Believe me. I get on that little> > > gerbil wheel made of evaluations a LOT. I was on it yesterday> > > and early today till I remembered (again) that my experience> > > is my experience, nothing more or less.> > >> > > Here's what I would suggest: If you haven't already, start> > > a meditation practice centered around something like watching> > > your breath, or counting from 1 to 10 with your breath, etc.> > > You can find good instructions in a basic Zen or Vispanna book,> > > or in "Get Out of Your Mind" for that matter. I would do it> > > for about 10 minutes a day at first, and I would keep at it> > > for several weeks at a minimum.> > >> > > Try and do it not to "get rid of those uncomfortable thoughts> > > and feelings" or to "get it right" or anything like that. The> > > instructions for counting your breath, for example, are just> > > to count from 1 to 10 with each inhale - 1 on the first inhale,> > > 2 on the first exhale, on up to 10, and then start over. Keep> > > your eyes open if you like. If a thought shows up, let it -> > > don't follow after it and don't push it away either; just let> > > it show up, and then return your attention to the next breath> > > and the next number. If you find you have gotten sucked into> > > following a thought, no problem: once you notice this, gently> > > place your attention back on your breath and the count.> > >> > > The idea is that by having a neutral focus that you can put> > > your attention on, and by making that what you are "doing,"> > > you can start experiencing other stuff as it comes and goes> > > without needing to follow it. You have something else to follow> > > instead of your evaluations: the count and the breath. Out of> > > that may slowly emerge a different experience. Let whatever> > > emerges do so, without any expectations. And if you find you> > > have an expectation, that's OK too - expectations are also> > > thoughts, and so you can let the thought of an expectation> > > come as it is and then return your attention gently to the> > > count and the breath.> > >> > > Over and over and over. But this is a different "over and> > > over" than getting trapped in your evaluations and thinking> > > that those evaluations represent "mindfulness." This over> > > and over is learning something new.> > >> > > I really suggest you do this for a few weeks, or something> > > like it. Your habitual thoughts may say it's a waste of time> > > and that you already know what will happen. You can put those> > > sorts of thoughts in charge if you like. I often put all kinds> > > of thoughts in charge of my life until eventually I notice> > > that's what I'm doing and return control to myself.> > >> > > If you do mindfulness meditation for a few weeks - or even> > > for a week - let us know what happens. Or if you have already> > > tried a meditation practice and your experience wasn't> > > successful, let us know that too and maybe someone will have> > > a suggestion about how to try again with more success.> > >> > > Good luck,> > > Randy> > >> > > >>

August 27, 2011

Michieux,

Much of what you say reads like old journal entries of mine. And not

so old, either - I can't say I'm done with suffering by a long shot.

Even so, from my own experience I would echo especially two things

that Steve says:

" The acceptance and mindfulness path is a commitment to yourself. It

is a commitment to self-kindness "

and

" You are not broken; you don't need to be fixed. "

Self-kindness can seem impossible when the message from our culture

& our very own head is that " you have failed; there is something

wrong with you. " And it is in obedience to this message that we

punish ourselves. At least that has been true for me.

I don't know how to write clearly enough that the message is an

illusion. If we do not punish ourselves, the universe does not fall

apart. So often what my mind tells me to fear has turned out to be

avoidance bound up in words. And no deeper than the layer of silver

on a mirror once seen through.

Yes, there is pain & confusion. On many days I have the same dark

self-loathing thoughts I often have. Yet even on these days there is

a part of me that does not use words that is present & knows what's

going on. You have this part as well.

The rest, Steve says better than I can - about small acts of

willingness etc. Good luck & be kind to yourself.

- Randy

August 27, 2011

I do know what you are going through as I have become exasperated at my own lack

of progress over the years. Humams can stand quite a lot of suffering when they

have hope, but when hope goes it all becomes intollerable.

But sometimes I see hope as a concept in the mind, it comes and goes, and yet

the reality stays the same. If I dare, hope can come in the most darkest of

places, even when everything seems finished. What gives me hope is when I notice

that I can still 'struggle' a little bit and move on despite how I feel - and

then I am not entirely convinced by my hopeless mind.

I don't suppose this will help you much, but I am with you.

***

Kv

> > > >

> > > > Bruce,

> > > >

> > > > Here's what I think is going on: when you say you are " always

> > > > mindful of my anxiety and depression, " what this suggests

> > > > to me is that what you are really " mindful " of, in the sense

> > > > that you are noticing it and buying into it, is your ongoing

> > > > evaluation of uncomfortable thoughts and emotions as being

> > > > not only uncomfortable, but " bad. " And there are probably

> > > > all sorts of other judgments wrapped up in there that you are

> > > > not necessarily explicitly aware of, but that are likewise

> > > > evaluations.

> > > >

> > > > In other words, feeling uncomfortable is " always on your mind "

> > > > in the sense that you are very aware that you feel uncomfortable,

> > > > and you are totally bonding with this sense of " it's bad. " You

> > > > are stuck in the judging / evaluating frame of mind that we

> > > > all are capable of and that, absent learning any new skills,

> > > > we continue to trust as somehow representing what is " real "

> > > > and " important. "

> > > >

> > > > That's not what is meant by mindfulness. But I have the feeling

> > > > that being told about mindfulness directly will not be very

> > > > helpful for you. You have probably read about it, either in

> > > > books or on this list, a zillion times already. Whatever I

> > > > write here is going to go straight to that judging/evaluating

> > > > mechanism that you have entrusted with your life, and it is

> > > > going to get judged and evaluated all over again.

> > > >

> > > > Over and over and over. Round and round and round.

> > > >

> > > > I know what it's like. Believe me. I get on that little

> > > > gerbil wheel made of evaluations a LOT. I was on it yesterday

> > > > and early today till I remembered (again) that my experience

> > > > is my experience, nothing more or less.

> > > >

> > > > Here's what I would suggest: If you haven't already, start

> > > > a meditation practice centered around something like watching

> > > > your breath, or counting from 1 to 10 with your breath, etc.

> > > > You can find good instructions in a basic Zen or Vispanna book,

> > > > or in " Get Out of Your Mind " for that matter. I would do it

> > > > for about 10 minutes a day at first, and I would keep at it

> > > > for several weeks at a minimum.

> > > >

> > > > Try and do it not to " get rid of those uncomfortable thoughts

> > > > and feelings " or to " get it right " or anything like that. The

> > > > instructions for counting your breath, for example, are just

> > > > to count from 1 to 10 with each inhale - 1 on the first inhale,

> > > > 2 on the first exhale, on up to 10, and then start over. Keep

> > > > your eyes open if you like. If a thought shows up, let it -

> > > > don't follow after it and don't push it away either; just let

> > > > it show up, and then return your attention to the next breath

> > > > and the next number. If you find you have gotten sucked into

> > > > following a thought, no problem: once you notice this, gently

> > > > place your attention back on your breath and the count.

> > > >

> > > > The idea is that by having a neutral focus that you can put

> > > > your attention on, and by making that what you are " doing, "

> > > > you can start experiencing other stuff as it comes and goes

> > > > without needing to follow it. You have something else to follow

> > > > instead of your evaluations: the count and the breath. Out of

> > > > that may slowly emerge a different experience. Let whatever

> > > > emerges do so, without any expectations. And if you find you

> > > > have an expectation, that's OK too - expectations are also

> > > > thoughts, and so you can let the thought of an expectation

> > > > come as it is and then return your attention gently to the

> > > > count and the breath.

> > > >

> > > > Over and over and over. But this is a different " over and

> > > > over " than getting trapped in your evaluations and thinking

> > > > that those evaluations represent " mindfulness. " This over

> > > > and over is learning something new.

> > > >

> > > > I really suggest you do this for a few weeks, or something

> > > > like it. Your habitual thoughts may say it's a waste of time

> > > > and that you already know what will happen. You can put those

> > > > sorts of thoughts in charge if you like. I often put all kinds

> > > > of thoughts in charge of my life until eventually I notice

> > > > that's what I'm doing and return control to myself.

> > > >

> > > > If you do mindfulness meditation for a few weeks - or even

> > > > for a week - let us know what happens. Or if you have already

> > > > tried a meditation practice and your experience wasn't

> > > > successful, let us know that too and maybe someone will have

> > > > a suggestion about how to try again with more success.

> > > >

> > > > Good luck,

> > > > Randy

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

August 28, 2011

Waking up to pain can feel very very hard, and if it's accumulated over time it

can feel absolutely unbearable. There are softer places, places of forgiveness

you can find for yourself. It may come only briefly, momentarily, as in noticing

and others here reaching out to you. It may feel like a deeper breath.

It may come as a gentle hug washing over with warmth for a moment or two. Or

perhaps a cat in late afternoon, half asleep still, rolling over, cleaning

itself. I just happened to notice this (again) today. It happened by so quickly

I almost didn't notice. Almost. It's a bit like that I think. There, all the

time. Softer landings, in succession.

peace,

Terry