Re: ACT and causes of depression (and other neuroses)

[Guest guest]

Leon wrote

> Is it enough with just accepting the feelings of depression and worthlessness

and then move in a valued direction, or is it necessary to figure out the causes

behind the depression and work with them?

>

My own feelings about this are both. It seems to be expedient to move in a

valued direction, but the basic 'ignoring' of feelings of depression and

worthlessness without examining those thoughts at least somewhat seems to leave

a void that does not get filled. The premise of ACT to bypass this by asking " Is

this helpful " would be great if it worked that simply. In my continuing

examination of ACT, it looks like a little cognitive thought process (somewhat

questioning those thoughts and feelings - then moving on) might be a more

helpful approach.

>

> From what I have understood, ACT does not put much focus on identifying causes

of, say depression, and from there work on getting rid of the causes that

underlies the depression. To me, it seems that ACT rather works with identifying

the symptoms of the depression, accepting them and from that point asks the

patient to move in a valued direction. ACT doesn't bother with the causes

underlying the depression, rather, the patient should accept the depression

(WITHOUT letting the depression controlling one's behaviour)and then move in a

valued direction. Is my understanding correct so far?

>

> So here's the thing that I find problematic:

>

> If one just accepts the depression without trying to see where the depression

comes from, I suspect that the depression will come back, even if one's living a

valued life. It just hit me as I wrote the previous line, that it may depend on

what the causes of the depression are, in many cases the depression would

probably disappear as the person start doing things in his/hers life that is

valuable to him/her. It all seems to depend on what the causes are behind the

depression.

>

> If the cause of the depression is a basic assumption that he/her is worthless

for example, it is that basic assumption that has to be questioned and changed

if you ask me. I mean, even if this person accepts his/her feelings of

worthlessness and starts doing things he/her truly values, the basic assumption,

underlying the depression and low self-esteem will still be there. As long as it

is there, the depression will presumably reoccur and the person will still

suffer from low self-esteem and depression.

>

> Is it enough with just accepting the feelings of depression and worthlessness

and then move in a valued direction, or is it necessary to figure out the causes

behind the depression and work with them?

>

>

>

> This is just some of my thoughts running around in my mind at the moment (I'm

pretty confused!) Also, I would like to add that I'm currently working with the

willingess chapters in Get out of your mind, so I'm not " done " with the work

yet.

>

> Any comments are highly appreciated!

>

> //Leon

>

[Guest guest]

Hello LeonClinical depression is a long-term condition, and whilst symptoms may ebb and flow, I wouldn't waste my time trying to find a way to avoid "it" returning. There may be a particular trigger for some depressive episodes, but I think only rarely is depression caused by a single issue which - if resolved - cures the depression.My therapist once said - as I embarked on a narrative about how awful my life was - that dwelling on the root causes of depression does nothing but devote time to nasty things. "Why on earth would we want to spend today doing that?" "Can't we do something a bit nicer?" We then started setting some goals for my coming week. I've mentioned before that to gaze deeply into depression is

like staring into the abyss: after a while, it starts to stare back into you. Life is a tangle of knots, and you can spend your entire life untangling one after the other, but why bother? The knotted rope is just as strong.(I swear I went to the same Analogy School as Forrest Gump, sorry!)Best wishes To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent:

Thursday, 20 October 2011, 20:52Subject: ACT and causes of depression (and other neuroses)From what I have understood, ACT does not put much focus on identifying causes of, say depression, and from there work on getting rid of the causes that underlies the depression. To me, it seems that ACT rather works with identifying the symptoms of the depression, accepting them and from that point asks the patient to move in a valued direction. ACT doesn't bother with the causes underlying the depression, rather, the patient should accept the depression (WITHOUT letting the depression controlling one's behaviour)and then move in a valued direction. Is my understanding correct so far?So here's the thing that I find problematic:If one just accepts the depression without trying to see where the depression comes from, I suspect that the depression will come back,

even if one's living a valued life. It just hit me as I wrote the previous line, that it may depend on what the causes of the depression are, in many cases the depression would probably disappear as the person start doing things in his/hers life that is valuable to him/her. It all seems to depend on what the causes are behind the depression. If the cause of the depression is a basic assumption that he/her is worthless for example, it is that basic assumption that has to be questioned and changed if you ask me. I mean, even if this person accepts his/her feelings of worthlessness and starts doing things he/her truly values, the basic assumption, underlying the depression and low self-esteem will still be there. As long as it is there, the depression will presumably reoccur and the person will still suffer from low self-esteem and depression. Is it enough with just accepting the feelings of depression and worthlessness and then move in a

valued direction, or is it necessary to figure out the causes behind the depression and work with them?This is just some of my thoughts running around in my mind at the moment (I'm pretty confused!) Also, I would like to add that I'm currently working with the willingess chapters in Get out of your mind, so I'm not "done" with the work yet.Any comments are highly appreciated! :)//Leon------------------------------------For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.orgIf you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may unsubscribe by sending an email to ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links<*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/<*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional<*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join (Yahoo! ID required)<*> To change settings via email: ACT_for_the_Public-digest ACT_for_the_Public-fullfeatured <*>

[Guest guest]

Hello Leon,What if...ACT considers other causes of depression and other manifestations of suffering? Not localized somewhere in a distant past, but enacted in the present?The idea being that it is mainly the relation we form with our thoughts, feelings, urges and values that leads to a life either of unnecessary suffering or meaning and vitality?Common "causes" of depression are, in this model, especially: fusion with unhelpful thoughts, experiential avoidance, not living in accordance with your values, etc.Another way of looking at your question: what if you look less from distant *causes* of your suffering and more for its *functions* (or effects in your present life, I you will). For instance: what are the short-term and long-term effects of ruminating?Hoping that this is not too abstract,Maarten

>> Hello Leon> > Clinical depression is a long-term condition, and whilst symptoms may ebb and flow, I wouldn't waste my time trying to find a way to avoid "it" returning. There may be a particular trigger for some depressive episodes, but I think only rarely is depression caused by a single issue which - if resolved - cures the depression.> > > My therapist once said - as I embarked on a narrative about how awful my life was - that dwelling on the root causes of depression does nothing but devote time to nasty things. "Why on earth would we want to spend today doing that?" "Can't we do something a bit nicer?" We then started setting some goals for my coming week. I've mentioned before that to gaze deeply into depression is like staring into the abyss: after a while, it starts to stare back into you. > > > Life is a tangle of knots, and you can spend your entire life untangling one after the other, but why bother? The knotted rope is just as strong.> > > (I swear I went to the same Analogy School as Forrest Gump, sorry!)> > > Best wishes> > > > > > > ________________________________> To: ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Thursday, 20 October 2011, 20:52> Subject: ACT and causes of depression (and other neuroses)> > From what I have understood, ACT does not put much focus on identifying causes of, say depression, and from there work on getting rid of the causes that underlies the depression. To me, it seems that ACT rather works with identifying the symptoms of the depression, accepting them and from that point asks the patient to move in a valued direction. ACT doesn't bother with the causes underlying the depression, rather, the patient should accept the depression (WITHOUT letting the depression controlling one's behaviour)and then move in a valued direction. Is my understanding correct so far?> > So here's the thing that I find problematic:> > If one just accepts the depression without trying to see where the depression comes from, I suspect that the depression will come back, even if one's living a valued life. It just hit me as I wrote the previous line, that it may depend on what the causes of the depression are, in many cases the depression would probably disappear as the person start doing things in his/hers life that is valuable to him/her. It all seems to depend on what the causes are behind the depression. > > If the cause of the depression is a basic assumption that he/her is worthless for example, it is that basic assumption that has to be questioned and changed if you ask me. I mean, even if this person accepts his/her feelings of worthlessness and starts doing things he/her truly values, the basic assumption, underlying the depression and low self-esteem will still be there. As long as it is there, the depression will presumably reoccur and the person will still suffer from low self-esteem and depression. > > Is it enough with just accepting the feelings of depression and worthlessness and then move in a valued direction, or is it necessary to figure out the causes behind the depression and work with them?> > > > This is just some of my thoughts running around in my mind at the moment (I'm pretty confused!) Also, I would like to add that I'm currently working with the willingess chapters in Get out of your mind, so I'm not "done" with the work yet.> > Any comments are highly appreciated! > > //Leon> > > > ------------------------------------> > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org> > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > unsubscribe by sending an email to > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links> > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Maarten. I was trying to convey this concept a couple of days ago and didn't do half so well.D

 

Hello Leon,What if...ACT considers other causes of depression and other manifestations of suffering? Not localized somewhere in a distant past, but enacted in the present?

The idea being that it is mainly the relation we form with our thoughts, feelings, urges and values that leads to a life either of unnecessary suffering or meaning and vitality?

Common " causes " of depression are, in this model, especially: fusion with unhelpful thoughts, experiential avoidance, not living in accordance with your values, etc.

Another way of looking at your question: what if you look less from distant *causes* of your suffering and more for its *functions* (or effects in your present life, I you will). For instance: what are the short-term and long-term effects of ruminating?

Hoping that this is not too abstract,Maarten

>> Hello Leon> > Clinical depression is a long-term condition, and whilst symptoms may ebb and flow, I wouldn't waste my time trying to find a way to avoid " it " returning. There may be a particular trigger for some depressive episodes, but I think only rarely is depression caused by a single issue which - if resolved - cures the depression.

> > > My therapist once said - as I embarked on a narrative about how awful my life was - that dwelling on the root causes of depression does nothing but devote time to nasty things.  " Why on earth would we want to spend today doing that? "   " Can't we do something a bit nicer? "   We then started setting some goals for my coming week.  I've mentioned before that to gaze deeply into depression is like staring into the abyss: after a while, it starts to stare back into you. 

> > > Life is a tangle of knots, and you can spend your entire life untangling one after the other, but why bother?  The knotted rope is just as strong.> > > (I swear I went to the same Analogy School as Forrest Gump, sorry!)

> > > Best wishes> > > > > > > ________________________________> To: ACT_for_the_Public

> Sent: Thursday, 20 October 2011, 20:52> Subject: ACT and causes of depression (and other neuroses)> > From what I have understood, ACT does not put much focus on identifying causes of, say depression, and from there work on getting rid of the causes that underlies the depression. To me, it seems that ACT rather works with identifying the symptoms of the depression, accepting them and from that point asks the patient to move in a valued direction. ACT doesn't bother with the causes underlying the depression, rather, the patient should accept the depression (WITHOUT letting the depression controlling one's behaviour)and then move in a valued direction. Is my understanding correct so far?

> > So here's the thing that I find problematic:> > If one just accepts the depression without trying to see where the depression comes from, I suspect that the depression will come back, even if one's living a valued life. It just hit me as I wrote the previous line, that it may depend on what the causes of the depression are, in many cases the depression would probably disappear as the person start doing things in his/hers life that is valuable to him/her. It all seems to depend on what the causes are behind the depression.

> > If the cause of the depression is a basic assumption that he/her is worthless for example, it is that basic assumption that has to be questioned and changed if you ask me. I mean, even if this person accepts his/her feelings of worthlessness and starts doing things he/her truly values, the basic assumption, underlying the depression and low self-esteem will still be there. As long as it is there, the depression will presumably reoccur and the person will still suffer from low self-esteem and depression.

> > Is it enough with just accepting the feelings of depression and worthlessness and then move in a valued direction, or is it necessary to figure out the causes behind the depression and work with them?>

> > > This is just some of my thoughts running around in my mind at the moment (I'm pretty confused!) Also, I would like to add that I'm currently working with the willingess chapters in Get out of your mind, so I'm not " done " with the work yet.

> > Any comments are highly appreciated! > > //Leon> > > > ------------------------------------> > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org

> > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > unsubscribe by sending an email to > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links> > > >     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

>