Re: 911:: Working with a mental

[Guest guest]

Been there.. got the T-shirt as the old saying goes.

Yes, if the doctor has released her for duty, you have to allow her to come

back because the doctor is saying " she's fit for duty " ... and because of ADA

issues, you can't use any of the medical against her.

So here is what you do.. Document, Document, Document all the poor

performance, violation of policy, officer safety issues. These items must go

into her personal file per your department policy to show poor performance...

then she is terminated, again following your department policy. Because if

you know she's not able to perform the job, mental or not, and you keep her

on and something really bad happens, it shows " negligent retention " ..

Meaning you purposefully kept a poor employee.

Now if her training file shows she received the training and passed the

training, that's more fuel for her to keep the job. If the training records

show the poor performance, and you still kept her - fuel for her for that

neg. retention. Quite the catch-22 isn't it?

Documentation, progressive discipline, retraining, all that must be in the

file to show a good faith effort by the department. And having her sent to

the department doctor for an evaluation is a good step too, to have that

second opinion.

Good luck! Maybe you'll be lucky like we were and she'll just not come back

to work oneday and all the hassle of termination won't be there! It happens

by default in our department - you fail to report to duty 3 days in a row

with no contact with the department - boom, you're gone! (Not that we didn't

try to contact her - she's alive and just refused to return our calls, answer

written correspondence, etc.).

Kathy

[Guest guest]

Sorry to put this on the list:

Sally, I tried to answer your message personally but it bounced back saying :

DELIVERY FAILURE: Your Domain does not have access to route messages to the

specified domain. Your message Subject: Re: mental

was not delivered to: burrs@...

because: Your Domain does not have access to route messages to the

specified domain.

If you have another email address, let me know so I can further explain some

stuff.

Kathy

[Guest guest]

Before you get too worked up about whether or not you are working with a

" mental "

(or 27, as we call 'em here), think about this...one in five of us will have a

diagnosable mental illness at some time in our lives. It may be something as

simple as clinical depression...which, according to some statistics, may effect

up to 80% of the population in varying degrees at some point. Some mental

illnesses and/or disorders happen because of external, environmental conditions

such as cumulative or acute stress ( for example, PTSD, Post Traumatic Stress

Disorder), others occur as a result of chemical imbalances in your neurological

systems that can be effectively treated with the right type of medication. The

trend in most states is to treat mental illness as any other illness or disease,

right now, Florida is going in that direction as far as insurance coverage, etc.

goes.

With that disclaimer out of the way, I want to reiterate part of Kathy's advice,

which was right on. You can't fire someone solely because of their illness, ADA

prevents that, but you can based on job performance issues. You do have to

document everything in a very objective way, though, keep the editorial

commentary out, document precisely the behaviors that effect job performance

directly. In other words, you say, " While supervising Susie beginning at 0243

hours on Saturday, November 3, 2001, I observed her close her eyes for a period

of time lasting approximately two minutes while handling a call, and during this

time she did not respond to the caller. When she did respond, she used

profanity

in her statements to the caller, and appeared more agitated than the situation

would normally call for. " And save the tape of her response, and add what

corrective action you took, and you will need multiple specific examples of her

behavior/performance. Don't add to that, " I feel that working in the same area

as this lunatic will lead to use of weapons of mass destruction and general

mutiny by her co-workers to avoid having to be assigned in her vicinity, and

will

certainly lead to potential lowering of our quality assurance survey indicators

from the public. " Sounds outlandish, I know, but having had to take a couple of

terminations for issues like this to arbitration before, any commentary

concerning these types of opinions will be turned into issues of personality

conflict in front of the deciding authority, and can kill your case.

Depending on the legal savvy of the person involved, you may end up making

" reasonable accommodations " in her work assignments...I've ended up having to

place persons in less stressful assignments (where are those? I never seem to

get one!) as an accommodation during treatment phases. And, some of them got

over their situation, got the right meds or treatment, and have become great

employees. Others will be a PITA until they leave or I do.

Check out your departmental policy on what they define as being " fit for duty. "

Most agencies will have some type of protocol you have to go through to have

someone declared unfit. This usually requires large amounts of hoop jumping and

documentation, but it is worth it to deal with the problem. Another thing I

have

found through the years is that some supervisors don't believe the work it takes

to collect the documentation is necessary, and simply don't do it. Management

can be hesitant to take on cases that may have an ADA issue involved, because of

the effect a lost case could have on future problems. But, believe me on this,

the work it will take to rectify the problems caused by some people will be

double or triple what it would have taken if dealt with early on, not to mention

the morale issues it will create with the folks who have to work with

substandard

employees, whether caused by mental illness or plain old sorriness.

Good luck,

Tara

[Guest guest]

Thanks so much, Tara! I am printing your advice off and keeping it - we

need all the help we can get!

Sally

[Guest guest]

Ok, the first thing that came into my mind was a " mental what " .....mentally

ill person, mentally unstable or just someone who seems a little unbalanced

or just going through a bad time. Seems to me a lot of people in all walks

of American life have been a little off since September 11 and that that's a

good part of why so many " stupid " calls have been made. People feel like

their lives are out of control and they are trying to get some kind of

control so they report anything that feels odd to them --but because of the

trauma more than usual feels odd. And they are trying to do their part of

help out.

<< I have a question regarding this:

We have a mental working in our center - - when she was training, her

evaluations were awful, and the FTO told the Director to extend her

probation. He ignored her recommendation, and comments of others, and kept

her.>

Did she have a psych and pass it? Was she mentally unstable during training

or just did a crappy job?

<<He claims that when her doctor gave her a slip that she could return to

work, that

the County's lawyer said we had no recourse but to let her come back. Is

this true????>

I believe under the ADA an emotional (mental) disability) isn't all that

different about return to work than a phsyical issue such as carpal tunnel.

If a doctor says all it well or limited duty than supposedly he/she knows

what they are doing.

<< What can we do? Someone is going to get hurt - nobody wants to work with

her, etc....she is so dangerous.>

Dangerous how? Does she threaten to hurt herself or someone else? Or just

lazy or incompetent in some way doing the job? Is she dropping the ball and

doesn't know it or just does'nt care?

[Guest guest]

<<

She is dropping the ball - unfocused - all her responses are inappropriate

- goofy acting - some days totally manic and other days just goes in chat

rooms and just about ignores the radio.

Wouldn't this fall more under law enforcement " return to work " guidelines,

than just any old job?

SHe forgets to do things, pages out the wrong groups, loses track of her

officers, stuff like that.

>>

Sounds more like incompetent or just doesn't care rather than mental illness

or incapacity. I do know some people will claim disability so that they can

get around some things on their job. When I was in school, for counseling

with an emphasis in Rehab (for either congenital or acquired disability not

drug or alcohol) and special ed I had a roommate who decided she was tired of

working day and wanted a lot of money fast. She came in, sat down and asked

me what kind of disability should she tell her employer she had so she could

get a lot of money, some time off and have them pay for her to go to school.

I asked her if she was hurt, she said no but she would tell them whatever

injury I thought was best.

I was dumbfounded -- I couldn't believe someone would actually do something

that stupid. I told her the discussion ended there and then because

ethically if she continued I would have to contact her emloyer and advise

them of her statements. She was really angry at me and told me I was

withholding important information that would make her life easier. I don't

think she knew that disability pays a lot less than your paycheck and people

in the process spend a lot of time going to appointments and are under close

observation.

I went back to my school supervisor and asked if this was common and was told

yeah, people do pull this stuff -- and that they will say they are injured or

have some sort of problem so that people will back off and employers will do

" nice " things for them.

But this person sounds either incompetent or just doesn't care.

[Guest guest]

Sounds like a major officer safety issue but you still need to document

everytime she does that. Plus verbal and written counselling. You know she

is an officer safety issue, you have to be able to prove to Joe Schmoe that

she is one ( and we all know how different the average person thnks compared

to us.)

[Guest guest]

She is dropping the ball - unfocused - all her responses are inappropriate

- goofy acting - some days totally manic and other days just goes in chat

rooms and just about ignores the radio.

Wouldn't this fall more under law enforcement " return to work " guidelines,

than just any old job?

SHe forgets to do things, pages out the wrong groups, loses track of her

officers, stuff like that.

[Guest guest]

She's definitely incompetent, but I wonder if it's the result of some kind

of depression....she is confirmed suicidal and just got out of 4 days in

the mental ward. Went for her appt at Mental Health and they wouldn't let

her out! She came back and claimed she just needed her medication changed.

I don't know....but it's scary. Scary for the officers especially.

[Guest guest]

Thanks. It's going to be a safety issue for her too - if she doesn't watch

out!