Re: naturopathy

March 14, 2011

I agree with you Rick and Thanks for the links Â I have personally seen some

miracles with homeopathy and other natural treatments especially medical ozone.

Its true that not all productsÂ contain what they claim so you have to be sure

you are using a reputableÂ companyÂ but that is true with any product. We

haveÂ had this discussion before, dont waste your energy trying to sway

" non-believers " LOLÂ

>

>> said the following on 3/11/2011 11:44 AM:

>>

>>> Before spending any cash on a 'naturopath' you might want to check out

>>>

>> this

>>

>>> evidence-based website: http://www.naturowatch.org/

>>> You can then decide whether it has an evidence base that justifies basing

>>> decisions about your health on.

>>>

>> Thats kinda like comparing your political views of liberal vs

>> conservative. You can find anything you want to either promote or debunk

>> your views.

>> " This Web site provides information about naturopathy that is difficult

>> or impossible to find elsewhere. "

>> I have to wonder why?

>> There are quacks that will take advantage of any situation. This website

>> appears biased toward the quacks.

>> We all must do our own research and make our own decisions. The proof

>> lies in the results.

>>

>> Rick

>>

>

March 14, 2011

>

> Hi Keven,

>

> With all due respect, I disagree :-)

> " objective evidence " - 3 years ago I would have agreed with you. Today?

> No way. Did you know that the FDA approves new drugs based on the trials

> of the pharmaceutical makers? The FDA does NO independent testing.

>

That's right Rick. The government doesn't pay for trials - though they (ie

we) do pay for the basic research that leads to the development of medicine

in the first place. Once trials are carried out (and they are very strictly

regulated) there are many hoops for companies to jump through before

treatments are approved.

> They

> make their trials come out just like they need them to come out. Why do

> you think the popular Viox and 500 other popular drugs are being recalled?

>

If companies actually fake data, then they could expect to take a hefty

legal hit. Drugs are generally withdrawn because of side-effects not

apparent from the relatively small numbers of people who take part in

clinical trials. No mystery there.

>

> Please find me any source where " natural' or 'homeopathic' supplements

> such as vitamins & minerals, herbs, etc have actually hurt or killed a

> person.

>

Well homeopathic supplements wont hurt anybody, given that they consist

entirely of water! Vitamins, like all chemicals, have a dosage that will be

high enough to cause harm and as for herbs, it depends - certainly cannabis,

for example, is associated with psychosis. just because something is

'natural' doesn't mean it is harmless.

The question is whether something actually does any good. It it works then

where is the evidence? If there's no evidence that something works then it

probably doesn't. Simple as that.

Nothing to do with 'big pharma' grasping medics or anything else - just the

plain old scientific method. The same one that gave you the computer you are

reading this on...

March 14, 2011

,

It would be very easy to sway this 'non-believer'. All I need is evidence

that something works. The same as I would for any medical treatment. That's

not unreasonable, is it?

And for a mailing list like this, where we have a chronic condition with

some fairly serious symptoms, claims of efficiacy should be backed by

evidence. If I could treat my bladder infections with something other than

antibiotics then I certainly would - if I could be confident that it would

work as well.

As it is, I'm afraid that this short clip tells us everything we need to

know about homeopathy:

kevin

>

> I agree with you Rick and Thanks for the links I have personally seen

> some miracles with homeopathy and other natural treatments especially

> medical ozone. Its true that not all products contain what they claim so you

> have to be sure you are using a reputable company but that is true with any

> product. We have had this discussion before, dont waste your energy trying

> to sway " non-believers " LOL

>

> ---

>

March 14, 2011

I think both of these have a time and a place.

I have seen people NOT take meds and make their situation worse, as well as take

a million meds without thinking.

>I agree with you Rick and Thanks for the links I have personally seen some

miracles with homeopathy and other natural treatments especially medical ozone.

Its true that not all products contain what they claim so you have to be sure

you are using a reputable company but that is true with any product. We have had

this discussion before, dont waste your energy trying to sway " non-believers "

LOL

>

>>

>>> said the following on 3/11/2011 11:44 AM:

>>>

>>>> Before spending any cash on a 'naturopath' you might want to check out

>>>>

>>> this

>>>

>>>> evidence-based website: http://www.naturowatch.org/

>>>> You can then decide whether it has an evidence base that justifies basing

>>>> decisions about your health on.

>>>>

>>> Thats kinda like comparing your political views of liberal vs

>>> conservative. You can find anything you want to either promote or debunk

>>> your views.

>>> " This Web site provides information about naturopathy that is difficult

>>> or impossible to find elsewhere. "

>>> I have to wonder why?

>>> There are quacks that will take advantage of any situation. This website

>>> appears biased toward the quacks.

>>> We all must do our own research and make our own decisions. The proof

>>> lies in the results.

>>>

>>> Rick

>>>

>>

>

March 14, 2011

I believe a doctor that utilizes both schools of thought to bring the person

to the ultimate health is the best way to go. Finding a doctor that can treat

with traditional and homeopathic methods, to me, is really the ultimate goal

that we should all be striving for.

We bring a diverse set of problems to our doctors and finding one that is not

just " open " to all ways to help us, but educated in all ways, is my ultimate

goal. I have a great internist and I'm finding that she is not only great with

traditional methods, but also with what we are calling here " natural treatments "

(which can at times be just as dangerous and fatal as the chemical compounds we

are prescribed).

My sister works for a very large pharmaceutical company - one that makes a

drug that probably many of us have at least tried if not still prescribed. I've

always had this slimy view of reps (sorry in advance for anyone that is a rep,

related to a rep, etc) and although she hasn't really changed my view of that

portion of the industry, she has shown me that in the recesses of at least her

company there is a part that really cares about what they are doing.

Yep - they're making big bucks and sponsoring all sorts of trials, but there

are those that care about those they help. She recently went to a symposium

(for lack of a better word) on a new drug her company is rolling out and the

informational film she watched with before and after patients was so remarkable

it made her and many others cry during the viewing.

Although the pharma companies have a bad reputation in (many of) our eyes for

probably very good reason, they also have a side where they do help people and

even if those that run the companies don't really care about the personal value

of what they do, there are employees who do care.

Kathy

Re: naturopathy

I think both of these have a time and a place.

I have seen people NOT take meds and make their situation worse, as well as

take a million meds without thinking.

>I agree with you Rick and Thanks for the links I have personally seen some

miracles with homeopathy and other natural treatments especially medical ozone.

Its true that not all products contain what they claim so you have to be sure

you are using a reputable company but that is true with any product. We have had

this discussion before, dont waste your energy trying to sway " non-believers "

LOL

>

>>

>>> said the following on 3/11/2011 11:44 AM:

>>>

>>>> Before spending any cash on a 'naturopath' you might want to check out

>>>>

>>> this

>>>

>>>> evidence-based website: http://www.naturowatch.org/

>>>> You can then decide whether it has an evidence base that justifies basing

>>>> decisions about your health on.

>>>>

>>> Thats kinda like comparing your political views of liberal vs

>>> conservative. You can find anything you want to either promote or debunk

>>> your views.

>>> " This Web site provides information about naturopathy that is difficult

>>> or impossible to find elsewhere. "

>>> I have to wonder why?

>>> There are quacks that will take advantage of any situation. This website

>>> appears biased toward the quacks.

>>> We all must do our own research and make our own decisions. The proof

>>> lies in the results.

>>>

>>> Rick

>>>

>>

>

March 14, 2011

I have held back getting involved in this conversation but I am now chiming in

-- with no disrespect to anyone I would like to add that I believe this group is

for the purpose of supporting others and offering up our ideas, experiences and

suggestions to help each other out. It is not for the intention of starting a

heated debate -- everyone has different ideas, suggestions and beliefs, and that

is what is great about this group. If something someone suggests does not

resonate with you please just delete the message rather than starting a debate

about it!!! I have mentioned many times alternative treatments that have helped

me out -- if someone uses that information great -- if not, great!

I hope I have not overstepped my bounderies in saying this.

Cheers everyone,

Dee

To: tetheredspinalcord

From: mzw4@...

Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 15:10:28 -0700

Subject: Re: naturopathy

,

I happen to agree with you that I'd rather have something tested than something

not, but after reading a few of your posts, I think you come across as

condescending and patronizing and I wonder if that is your intention.

Many of us on this list are educated and have dealt with this condition for a

long period of time. Many of us have taken horrible drugs that caused things

worse than they cured, and some of us have exhausted all medical options that

are acceptable to us and are looking for alternatives. Personally, I don't do a

lot of supplementation unless it's been recommended by my doctor. That doesn't

mean I don't understand why some others do, and why some choose to utilize the

internet to look for treatments their own doctors might not know about. I've

given my doctor a lot of research I've found about allopathic treatment options

that he hadn't heard of because this condition isn't exactly mainstream.

Here's how I feel about your statement " And for a mailing list like this, where

we have a chronic condition with some fairly serious symptoms, claims of

efficacy should be backed by evidence. " For a mailing list like this, where we

have a chronic condition with some fairly serious symptoms, anything offered up

should be backed up with evidence or with the statement that it is opinion. As

an adult, I reserve the right to decide if I'm going to believe something or

not. I don't need protection from information that may or may not be tested and

proven. I simply need to know where the info comes from and then I can figure

the rest out on my own, through research. As long as we know the origin of the

information, I think most of us are relatively intelligent enough to do our

homework and our own investigation.

You have stated several times how you feel about naturopathy. At this point, it

appears to me, someone who normally would be on your side of the argument, that

you're berating people for not thinking as you do. Say it once, it's stating

your opinion, twice and you're asserting yourself. Say it four or five times and

you're browbeating and I really don't like anyone who comes to a list filled

with people who have a medical condition and tries to bully them or makes fun of

them for thinking outside the box. No one is telling you to take massive doses

of fish oil or to stop with the antibiotics.

________________________________

To: tetheredspinalcord

Sent: Mon, March 14, 2011 3:43:29 PM

Subject: Re: naturopathy

,

It would be very easy to sway this 'non-believer'. All I need is evidence

that something works. The same as I would for any medical treatment. That's

not unreasonable, is it?

And for a mailing list like this, where we have a chronic condition with

some fairly serious symptoms, claims of efficiacy should be backed by

evidence. If I could treat my bladder infections with something other than

antibiotics then I certainly would - if I could be confident that it would

work as well.

As it is, I'm afraid that this short clip tells us everything we need to

know about homeopathy:

kevin

>

> I agree with you Rick and Thanks for the links I have personally seen

> some miracles with homeopathy and other natural treatments especially

> medical ozone. Its true that not all products contain what they claim so you

> have to be sure you are using a reputable company but that is true with any

> product. We have had this discussion before, dont waste your energy trying

> to sway " non-believers " LOL

>

> ---

>

March 15, 2011

Hey Dee,

From a very long-standing member and former owner of the list (along with

who just wrote a very apt post about this thread), I can say from a

fellow member, nope, you're not out of line at least from my viewpoint.

I'd say that has very strong opinions about assuring that whatever he

takes is backed up with valid and reliable research (which are two terms he

hasn't used when discussing the research so I'm not sure if he knows all the

ins and outs of research - he may, but not sure).

There's nothing wrong with this and if he and others have time to read

pertinent research papers to assure they are taking a medicine that is

backed with valid and reliable data, then all the more power to them. I

don't have the time or the patience. I do this in my career and although I

love assuring validity and reliability, I just can't bring myself to do it

with my own condition and all that I partake in for helping myself.

Rick has been dealing with this condition for longer than many of us and I

rely on his personal expertise (along with many other members) to find new

information. I trust Rick (and others) as much as anyone can trust someone

they've never met. I also respect Rick (and others) very much and have

received very reliable assistance from them.

We all know - in the back of our minds - when we read these posts about what

helps someone and what doesn't, may or may not help us. We also are all

familiar with the placebo effect and I'm sure I'm not the only one that

wonders if some of what we hope or think is helping any of us is impacted by

this psychological phenomenon, be it traditional or homeopathic treatments.

You just don't know and need to take leaps of faith at times and other

times, do your own homework.

I agree with - it has turned into belittling and degrading and

comes off as my opinion is superior and tradition stands with reason. I

would like to think that he does not mean to come off this way and because

there is no intonation with emails, he will realize the tone and back off,

but *not* leave the list. He sounds intelligent and we could always use

great minds on this list.

There are quite a few of us who have been with the list before it became

this list and I think that adds a bit of protectiveness with us also.

Kathy

Re: naturopathy

>

> ,

>

> It would be very easy to sway this 'non-believer'. All I need is evidence

> that something works. The same as I would for any medical treatment.

> That's

> not unreasonable, is it?

>

> And for a mailing list like this, where we have a chronic condition with

> some fairly serious symptoms, claims of efficiacy should be backed by

> evidence. If I could treat my bladder infections with something other than

> antibiotics then I certainly would - if I could be confident that it would

> work as well.

>

> As it is, I'm afraid that this short clip tells us everything we need to

> know about homeopathy:

>

> kevin

>

>>

>> I agree with you Rick and Thanks for the links I have personally seen

>> some miracles with homeopathy and other natural treatments especially

>> medical ozone. Its true that not all products contain what they claim so

>> you

>> have to be sure you are using a reputable company but that is true with

>> any

>> product. We have had this discussion before, dont waste your energy

>> trying

>> to sway " non-believers " LOL

>>

>> ---

>>

>

March 15, 2011

said the following on 3/14/2011 1:43 PM:

> And for a mailing list like this, where we have a chronic condition with

> some fairly serious symptoms, claims of efficiacy should be backed by

> evidence. If I could treat my bladder infections with something other than

> antibiotics then I certainly would - if I could be confident that it would

> work as well.

>

The secret is, is to make ur immune system strong enough so u dont get

bladder infections. I cath 4-6 times a day, sometimes get rather

careless, still I havent had an infection of any kind for 5 years. How

much more evidence do I need?

Rick

March 15, 2011

said the following on 3/14/2011 1:27 PM:

> The question is whether something actually does any good. It it works then

> where is the evidence? If there's no evidence that something works then it

> probably doesn't. Simple as that.

>

For me the evidence is my improved mobility, improved strength, less or

no pain, lowered blood pressure, natural loss of weight, improved

outlook on life in general, an improved immune system that has been able

to reject harmful bacteria and virus' for past 3-5 years, and best of

all, improved quality of life. How much more simple can it be?

Rick

March 15, 2011

My 17 month old son has to take ditropan and although I know he needs it, I

dislike the side effects! Â I'm looking into the possibility of administering

the medication directly into the bladder after we cath him. Â This is supposed

to take away almost all of the side effects, but still have the positive impact

on the bladder. Â Just thought I'd toss this out there as an option. Â We're

talking to our uro about it this Friday -- not sure if he'll want us to do it

this way or not. Â But, if you do google searches for it, you can find out more

info.

:-) Allie

>>

>>> said the following on 3/11/2011 11:44 AM:

>>>

>>>> Before spending any cash on a 'naturopath' you might want to check out

>>>>

>>> this

>>>

>>>> evidence-based website: http://www.naturowatch.org/

>>>> You can then decide whether it has an evidence base that justifies basing

>>>> decisions about your health on.

>>>>

>>> Thats kinda like comparing your political views of liberal vs

>>> conservative. You can find anything you want to either promote or debunk

>>> your views.

>>> " This Web site provides information about naturopathy that is difficult

>>> or impossible to find elsewhere. "

>>> I have to wonder why?

>>> There are quacks that will take advantage of any situation. This website

>>> appears biased toward the quacks.

>>> We all must do our own research and make our own decisions. The proof

>>> lies in the results.

>>>

>>> Rick

>>>

>>

>

March 16, 2011

Holly said the following on 3/14/2011 10:54 PM:

> Rick,

> Please share what has helped you, I think we would all be interested in

that!

>

First I should make it clear that I am NOT against conventional medical

doctors and prescription drugs. I still take prescription drugs against

my better judgment, but I am slowly weaning myself from them. When most

main-stream doctors see a patient about anything that is bothering them,

the doctor wants to prescribe a medication that will only relieve the

symptoms. If you have pain, get a pain pill. If you have an infection

then of course you need an antibiotic to " cure " the infection - there is

just no debate about that. Case in point: I had a routine 6 mo PCP

visit, the doc asked me if anything bothering me, I said I had ringing

in my ears. He looked and found no problem. He wanted to prescribe me an

antibiotic in case I had an inner ear infection, and some steroids, if

that didnt work he would order a MRI. I told him no flippin way and he

said he understood. The other day I went outside to finish replacing the

floor on a rusted trailer I had started last fall. The easiest way to

get the rust off was to beat it with a sledge hammer. After that first

smack I knew why my ears had been ringing. Yesterday I had my annual

hearing test, she said my ears were not infected, inflamed, or blocked

and probably a little nerve damage from the loud ping sound from hitting

the metal. Most people would have taken the antibiotics and steroids

cause " the doc said so " . And the doc would have got a little cut from

the hospital that did the MRI.

Second what helps me will not necessarily help others on this list. You

will have to look at all of your individual symptoms and research from

there. We all have many common symptoms from TSC and I will share what I

have learned.

My philosophy is to make my body as healthy as possible. With a strong

immune system you will not get the common infections that float around

such as colds, flu, even bladder infections (so I hope!). Research

immune system on the Internet. Having a strong immune system is probably

(IMHO) the most important thing you can do. I mostly shop at Natural

Foods which is local for me. I think they are vitamincottage.com on the

Internet, they used to be called Vitamin Cottage.

http://www.naturalgrocers.com/nutrition/achieve-improved-health-and-wellness

For my immune system I take high potency multivitamin & mineral capsule

called Men's 50+ in AM and PM, 5,000 iu Vit D3 2 x day, Omega3 2 x day

(which includes 840 mg DHA, 1050 mg EPA, & 2065 mg fish oil, the DHA

w/EPA & fish oil in AM and EPA w/DHA & fish oil in PM), and 2500 mcg

Methyl-B12 in AM & PM. This is also good for nerves and nerve regrowth.

I used to take prescription Previcid but no longer need to several

months after taking a quality Probiotic (10-14 billion bacteria) in AM

and PM. I always thought probiotics were for intestinal health but not

so, found articles that show otherwise. Many of us have bowel problems,

probiotics make mine very manageable. Also on my immune system list is

500 mg calcium, 250 mg magnesium, and 15 mg zinc 2 x day and 100 mg

Acetyl-L Carnitine 2 x day.

Not being able to walk for past 15 years, I gained about 40 extra

pounds. Carrying that extra weight around causes its own problems, high

blood pressure for me. Diabetes , extra pain and heart problems for

others. That means I have to take prescription blood pressure

medications. I looked at my environment and did some research on why am

I over weight? Not so much that I eat too much but I ate the wrong kind

of food. I cut my 24 oz Pepsi per day to 12 oz then no Pepsi, generally

eliminating all sugar where I could. I did a lot of research on diet and

I learned that most of what I eat is actually harmful and poisonous to

the human body. Things such as MSG, artificial sweeteners, artificial

flavors, artificial colors, preservatives, most all oil except olive

oil, soy protein and all that crap on the labels of canned products,

frozen food, boxed dinners, etc. Lunch meat and hot dogs are about the

worst things you can eat. Eliminating all that crap I have lost around

20 pounds this past year without really being on a diet. Also your

immune system does not have to work so hard when it does not have to

deal with all those poisons. Without having all that sugar in my system

I do not get hungry all the time and less food fills me up. I eat beef,

chicken, turkey, fish, fresh produce and fruit, and drink lots of

filtered water. We use herbs, spices, & sea salt for seasonings. We have

our own reverse osmosis water system. Just by doing the above I have

lowered my prescription Lisinopril from 40 mg/day to 10 mg/day and hope

to be off of it completely w/in 6 months. Totally eliminated the 180 mg

presc Dilitiazem within first 6 months.

For good skin, hair & nails I take 600 mcg Biotin 2 x day. Also for

heart, immune, & nerves I take 200 mg CO-Q10 in AM and 100 mg in PM.

This must be pharmaceutical grade or most of it just passes through your

system. I just read an article that NAC is good for your kidneys if you

take a lot of products with tylenol in them and are subjective to kidney

reflux.

On the prescription side in addition to above I take 10 mg Ditropan

every AM to eliminate bladder leakage, 50 mg Tramadol PRN when I just

ache from either low barometer or after heavy workout, and 20 mg

Clonazepam before bed to pretty much eliminate those annoying leg spasms

when trying to sleep. I am still looking for alternatives to these meds

or the means to eliminate the problem they are prescribed for.

This is not my live or die routine, I still have a piece of pizza and a

small pepsi on occasion, just not routinely.

We also have a 2.5 acre 'farm' where we have our own chickens and eggs,

organic garlic, carrots, beets, beans, corn, peas, lettuce, cabbage,

broccoli, potatoes, radishes, etc.

My favorite web sites are http://www.naturalnews.com/

http://www.mercola.com/ http://www.healthnewsdigest.com/news/

http://hartkeisonline.com/ http://healthfreedoms.org/ and some

others I cant find right now. When you read the articles be sure to

click on the " source " then look at the home page of that site for more

information. If you are on Facebook, click the " like " button on these

sites to receive all the latest articles.

I will be back in a few days.

Rick

March 17, 2011

Thanks! Dr. Mercola is great to listen to on this website. I may end up trying

some of the products. It's always helpful to have recommendations. The options

on the internet can sometimes be overwhelming!

Holly

________________________________

To: tetheredspinalcord

Sent: Wed, March 16, 2011 5:13:49 PM

Subject: RE: naturopathy

Probiotics are available in powdered form, great for kids. One resource for a

good quality powder probiotic and chewable krill oil for kids is

www.mercola.com. Sure there are many others but I personally trust this brand.

Dee

To: tetheredspinalcord

From: bluegrass.momma@...

Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 07:51:31 -0700

Subject: Re: naturopathy

Very insightful, Rick! It sounds like the Omegas/fish oils are very important

for this condition.

My son is having some bowel issues as well, he doesn't take any probiotics, in

fact, he can't take capsules at all.

But I will try and find a way to get these in him. I was planning on trying

some sena fruit.

Thanks for including the websites, I'll check them out.

We are aspiring organic farmers, but right now our farm is in our backyard,

chickens and a large garden. lol

I admire your determination to keep so healthy, it takes a lot of discipline to

make such significant lifestyle changes.

Good for you! I appreciate hearing more about how you manage your health

obstacles! You are right that it is an individual journey for us all, but it's

nice to have others to share ideas with along the way!

Holly

________________________________

To: tetheredspinalcord

Sent: Wed, March 16, 2011 2:22:39 AM