Re: Re: Recovery Stories/ Control is the Problem

[Guest guest]

LOL. I was feeling humorous–sorry. I like humor.Bruce said that he was sticking with the practice even though it was a difficult day. My point was that I believe most of us have to do that same thing at times and since I believe it is the correct choice, I wanted to say so. it wasn't about sounding good, but rather about being in agreement.

I will consider myself fired....D>  >> Darrell, I don't get what you are saying  ...  " sounds like Bruce is doing quite well ??? "   And " nobody ever promised you a rose garden? "   <groan>

>>  >> And " good for you, sir? " >>  >> Like he GOT IT? >>  >> You sound like the kind of therapist that tries to make things sound good so the client will believe you.  I fired every one of those I ever had.

>>  >>  >>  >>  >> ________________________________>>

> To: " ACT for the Public " <ACT_for_the_Public >> Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 6:22:18 PM> Subject: Re: Re: Recovery Stories/ Control is the Problem

>>  >> Sounds to me like you are doing quite well, Bruce. Nobody ever promised us a rose garden and all that, so acceptance is pretty much what we are left with. Here in my world, if things are good today (in this moment), then I don't worry about what might happen when I " crack " (the future). I am always trying to improve myself, of course, but I have lost too many present moments by wallowing in future anxiety and so being " accepting of what is " is a high priority for me!

>> Good for you, sir! I will be interested in how it plays out for you.>> D>>

>>  >>>> Yes, I see the problem. I just don't know what I can do about it. I guess a big part of me does think that I'm responsible for myself, it's not her responsibility for me to be healthy and whole. And I can't change her, I can only change myself. I've tried being open about my struggles and it hasn't worked out very well. Today, things are good between us. I guess I feel that's as long as I don't crack.

>>>> I wish things were different but they aren't. I'm trying to be accepting of what is and go from there.>> I appreciate your good wishes. I really do. It's a challenging day and I'm trying to practice...

>> Bruce>>>>>> >>>> My wife is supportive but also threatened by my emotional troubles. She wants me to work them out on my own, with whatever I need to do that. When I have shared or asked for her help, she gets very angry.

>>>>  >>>> Do you not see the disconnection in your very answer???  Supportive ... threatened ... work it out on your own ... whatever you need ... gets angry ...>>>>  

>>  >>>> Love ya,>>>> Helena>>>>  >>>> ________________________________>>>> From:  " Bruce Carlson "

>> To:  " ACT for the Public " <ACT_for_the_Public >>> Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 3:10:00 PM>> Subject: Re: Re: Recovery Stories/ Control is the Problem

>>>>  >>>> No, it is not too personal to ask. My wife is supportive but also threatened by my emotional troubles. She wants me to work them out on my own, with whatever I need to do that. When I have shared or asked for her help, she gets very angry. So it's a mixed bag there. I wish I could lean on her more but it is what is.

>>>> I wonder about the physical, too. I have been checked by several doctors, both MDs and a naturopath and nothing has been found. I had low vitamin D but that has been corrected. It didn't make any difference in my mood. One thing about the physical is that I tend to feel better late at night. Nothing has changed physically then so maybe it is all in my head. It sure feels physical, though. I'm taking a bunch of amino acids now, based on the Mood Cure book, plus vitamins and fish oil. So far nothing has made a positive difference.

>> Thanks,>> Bruce>>>>>> >>>> If I don't keep trying, I'll just end up huddled in a ball crying. And I can't let that happen.

>>>>  >>>> ...why not just break down and cry?  Why can't you let that happen?  What is the worst thing that could happen if you just let go?  Just break down and cry?>>

>> Forgive me if I am hitting too personally here, but are you married?  ... if so, does  your wife share in / understand / stand by you in your struggles?  You have talked of your daughter often but never about any other family members.  I am simply curious and do not wish to intrude, but have to wonder about your relationships and how they affect / shape your life.  Sorry if I am getting too personal, and please feel free to not divulge more than you are comfortable with.

>>>>  >>>> I always, always wonder when it comes to you and your symptoms:  Is something physical going on?  I know I brought this up before and you answered it, but something about that question still bugs me.

>>>>  >>>> Caring,>>>>  >>>> Helena>>>>>> ________________________________>>>> From:  " Bruce Carlson "

>> To:  " ACT for the Public " <--> Darrell G King, RN, CASAC-T> Rochester, NY, US> http://darrellking.com> DarrellGKing@...

>> -- Darrell G King, RN, CASAC-TRochester, NY, UShttp://darrellking.com

DarrellGKing@...

[Guest guest]

The language of a game might be useful if it helps direct you back to choice.Imagine a " game " in which all the losers are shot. My guess a " game " like that is not a game at all.

In a real game you choose an outcome and you hold it as important -- then there are processes to followin that game that you also choose to hold as important. A game is a choice.

Let's say you are playing " I want to be a good dad. "  The future is not here yet. You couldplay that game and then your son is hit by a truck. So the game is not in the outcome. 

And if God could say " tell you what ... I will snap my fingers and your son turned out great but you did nothing " that would be the outcome but not the process. That's not being a good Dad either.

Thats just your son turning out OK.The language of a game reminds you it is a choice that sets up a process right now.When you say " I'd just like to be able enjoy a movie, or TV show, or a book or sporting event. Is that too much to ask? "

that is the old game leaking. Like " the universe should be fair ... or care if it isn't " or " I should get what I want as long as it is reasonable ... and I'm not getting it "

or just " I don't want to feel bad. " In all of those you are choosing the directions and the processes too -- you just forgot you did it (or it was so conventional and fused that you never noticed the choice you made -- you may not have even known you have a choice).

It is a pretty normal game -- the culture supports it massively.The direction is feeling good and the process is fairness or reasonableness.

The problem is that once problems show up those games are boring and unwinnable. Once problems show up one feels good (or lives well either) playing them.

No one. You neither. If it is a game its a rigged one.When you say " I don't know what else to do " you likely mean a bit of this: " I don't know what else to do to get the universe to be fair... or to care if it isn't "

or  " I don't know what else to do to get  what I want as long as it is reasonable " or " I don't know what else to do to stop feeling bad. "

I know it is not 100% -- I sense some cracks in the system that is strangling you -- but the part 

above that is leaking the old song isn't the kind of giving up that will create genuinely new options. That's still checkers to win at dominos.

The outcomes will not change one bit. Acceptance and commitment are  not a different methods. They are about a different purpose.

The kind of shift we need is something like " I'm giving up on the happiness trap. I'm going to start living for another purpose.

I'm going to stand with myself when I feel bad or good or indifferent and not run away.I'm going to stand with myself when I think I'm moving forward or backward or sideways and notice my mind do its thing.

I'm going to take that leap of faith that my life is whole and valid, and I'm going to startlooking with curiosity (not judgment) at the rise and fall of my experiences. 

From that place in which I'm more than my programming I'm going to put down the self-focused feel-o-meter that has me measuring my life in 

teaspoon fulls of the " right emotion. " And when I put down that metric --that " feel-o-meter " -- I'm going to show up as a conscious human being and gently turn my life moments 

toward _____[insert chosen values here ] _______, as a process (not an outcome). "

Of course those are just words. Inside there is something more than words.

Feelings are the exhaust of life. Using them as the prime measure is like trying to steer a car bysniffing its tail pipe. 

Your pain is your biggest ally here. That and taking your life back down off the shelf.

The pain of what is present and the pain of what is absent. These are you allies -- after allthey are your experiences. Not the cultures. Not Mamas. Yours. 

If you have not really read and done the work books like " the happiness trap " or " get out of your mind and into your life "

they will help. So will the community here.thank you for seeing caring inside the whacks.

I'm not whacking you -- I'm whacking at the freakin mind talk that has you.I would be like a by-standing whacker a dog that has gone for your throat

Peace, love, and life

- S C. Foundation ProfessorDepartment of Psychology /298

University of NevadaReno, NV 89557-0062 " Love isn't everything, it's the only thing " hayes@... or stevenchayes@...

Fax: Psych Department: Contextual Change (you can use this number for messages if need be): Blogs: Psychology Today  http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/get-out-your-mind

Huffington Post  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steven-c-hayes-phdIf you want my vita, publications, PowerPoint slides, try my training page or my blog at the ACBS site: 

http://www.contextualpsychology.org/steven_hayes http://www.contextualpsychology.org/blog/steven_hayes

or you can try my website (it is semi-functional) stevenchayes.comIf you have any questions about ACT or RFT (articles, AAQ information etc), please first check the vast resources at website of the Association for Contextual Behavioral Science (ACBS): www.contextualpsychology.org. You have to register on the site to download things, but the cost if up to your own values.

If you are a professional or student and want to be part of the world wide ACT discussion or RFT discussions go to http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy/join

orhttp://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/relationalframetheory/joinIf you are a member of the public reading ACT self-help books (e.g., " Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life " etc) and want to be part of the conversation go to: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join

 

Thank you for this, Dr. . I see the truth in what you say and I really appreciate your taking the time to write. I guess it's true that I'd like someone to rescue me. I've been so lost that I guess I'm grasping for any hope. That maybe there's a simple solution to live in a way that I perceive as normal. There is no doubt that the way I am is not working. 

I'm going to re-read this and try and really get the meaning. I would like to renounce the whole game I'm playing. I'm just playing a game that will get me by but leads to more and more pain. I'd like to get out of this game. I'm just don't know what else to do. It's like not liking tennis but being forced to play tennis and nothing else every day. I'd just like to be able enjoy a movie, or TV show, or a book or sporting event. Is that too much to ask? Right now it is, I suppose.

Thank you again. I know nobody can change things but me. I just don't feel like the right person for the job, based on my job performance so far.Bruce

 

There is a piece of this that goes like so: if Isay I am in enough pain, clearly enough or loudly enough,someone or something will rescue me.It seems logical. It even worked, a bit, back when we were kids.

But the chronic emotional pain of adults is not like the thingswe face when we were kids. Besides, we are not as cute.Eventually our cries for help just drive others away.Meanwhile the only person who can move us forward remains here:

it is our responsibility. We have the ability to respond. Experience is saying something. Look and see if it is not saying, loud and clear, " This is not working. " The " this " includes following the idea that if I

say I am in enough pain, clearly enough or loudly enough,someone or something will rescue me.There is a paradox right in front of us.It is in what you have written.

" I seem to have lost the ability to relax and enjoy anything. It seems like I can only keep a tight hold on myself to try and control my emotions. 

I know this is wrong but I'm at a loss as to what to do about it. I engage in activities that should be enjoyable by normal standards and get no spontaneous enjoyment from it. "

Bruce, you are at a loss about what to do?  Bruce, how about this. NO MORE OF THAT.

I RENOUNCE THAT WHOLE GAME. I DON'T KNOW WHAT ELSE TO DO, BUT NO MORE OF THAT.Will that make you feel any better? Let's just say " no. " At best it will make you FEEL a bit better.

But isn't trying something to see if it makes you feel better the very game that is producing this set of results?How's it working for you? Have you had enough? 

If you went to a doctor complaining of a headache and the doctor saw that all the while you werebeating your head with a hammer, the doc might say " ah, gee, first how about no more of that. "

Look man, I'm not blaming you. You are doing what humans do ... all of us untillife itself beats us to a bloddy pulp and our own pain finally produces some wisdom.It is not fun to  " keep a tight hold on myself to try and control my emotions. "

Your own life is a testament to it. Inside that struggle even fun is not fun!

You remember when you use to say to your Mom " I'm bored Mom " and whatever she suggested didn't work? That is because it isboring to try not to be bored. You are learning a similar lesson --

or at least it is there to be learned. See if this is not true: it is not fun to try try hard to feel fun so that the pain goes away.What if that is how it works? what if entanglement with that whole system is like a hammer to your head?

How much suffering is enough?And precisely who is going to rescue you from your own purposes.

If I weighed 1000 pounds and had a dozen guns strapped to my body I might be able to make your arms and hards move the way I want

to, like a puppet on a string.  But even then I could never make you change your purpose: that is something deep inside

only you can decide What if the problem is the agenda itself, not the method of accomplishing it?

Not everyone wakes up to that, but if you but read what you have written the evidence is right there in front of you. Look. It is right there.

There is an alternative. But it is not an alternative method. It is an alternative purpose. 

The game, the agenda, the purpose is yours, no one else's. Ask yourself this.

What have I put on hold while I've gone inside this endless struggle?If you dropped the " feel good first " game, there might be a lot more

interesting games to play? Like " love good first " or " contribute well first " or " be myself first. " Will those make you feel good?

I dunno, but if you play them in order to feel good its likeplaying Checkers to win at Dominos. Good freakin luck

Your own pain has earned you the ticket into another agenda. You've paid a lot -- hopefully enough

for that shift of agenda; for that " no more of that " moment. We are rooting for you -- we are you, and you are us.

Your journey is our journey. You are not alone. And yet this turn is something only you can do.

We are rooting for you - S

C. Foundation ProfessorDepartment of Psychology /298University of Nevada Reno, NV 89557-0062 " Love isn't everything, it's the only thing " hayes@... or stevenchayes@...

Fax: Psych Department: Contextual Change (you can use this number for messages if need be):

Blogs: Psychology Today  http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/get-out-your-mind Huffington Post  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steven-c-hayes-phd

If you want my vita, publications, PowerPoint slides, try my training page or my blog at the ACBS site:  http://www.contextualpsychology.org/steven_hayes

http://www.contextualpsychology.org/blog/steven_hayes or you can try my website (it is semi-functional) stevenchayes.com

If you have any questions about ACT or RFT (articles, AAQ information etc), please first check the vast resources at website of the Association for Contextual Behavioral Science (ACBS): www.contextualpsychology.org. You have to register on the site to download things, but the cost if up to your own values.

If you are a professional or student and want to be part of the world wide ACT discussion or RFT discussions go to http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy/join

orhttp://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/relationalframetheory/joinIf you are a member of the public reading ACT self-help books (e.g., " Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life " etc) and want to be part of the conversation go to: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join

  I don't really have anything in my life that I would call fun. I seem to have lost the ability to relax and enjoy anything. It seems like I can only keep a tight hold on myself to try and control my emotions. I know this is wrong but I'm at a loss as to what to do about it. I engage in activities that should be enjoyable by normal standards and get no spontaneous enjoyment from it. This is very frustrating. I have a tough time with moment to moment enjoyment of the things you mention. Do people really enjoy those things? I have a hard time with feeling the beauty of nature, etc. I see it and acknowledge it but it doesn't touch me at any emotional level. I try and meditate but don't get any serenity from that, either. The biggest thing I do is journal and that keeps me going but it's pretty repetitive. I know a lot of it is a waste of time.

You are right that I have a strong desire to control pain and avoid it. I don't feel like I can handle pain, although I know I have handled a lot of it and I'm creating most of the pain I experience now myself. I feel like if I don't control myself and situations, that I will completely fall apart and let everyone down. If I don't keep trying, I'll just end up huddled in a ball crying. And I can't let that happen. So letting go of control, over myself at least, seems very threatening. Plus, it seems the pursuing valued action requires that level of forcing myself for me. It doesn't arise spontaneously. Just getting through the day requires a lot of thought and effort for everyday things, like brushing my teeth.

I'm just starting with a new therapist. I have been seeing one for awhile but am stuck for progress. We just keep going over the same issues and childhood stuff. I hope the new one I've found will be helpful. I'm trying to eat better, cut out sugar and exercise, take supplements and vitamins, etc. Not a lot of success with that but some. Progress anyway.

Thank you for reaching out in reply to my message. I can't believe how bad I sound. I really appreciate your support and desire to help.Bruce

Bruce, you'll never get completely out of your head..we're all stuck with this. But the practice here does help if you keep to it. 

I'd say a job well done is nothing to minimize. It made me sad it seemed you weren't able to find some joy in that accomplishment today. Do you do anything that you would call fun? What sorts of hobbies, interests do you have? Since you stopped drinking, what do you do now with all that time and money? What about nurturing self-care? Do you move your body enough, get sunshine, eat well? Do you do any deep breathing work, anything that centers you, self as process work? Do you find any enjoyment in moment to moment things, like the sun rising, setting, a child playing, animals about in the park? Today I walked in the rain and it was just exquisite. 

Do you have a compassionate therapist? This is making the biggest difference for me now. I gave up on looking for an ACT or even a " mindfulness " therapist and just went for a really compassionate, humanistic style person This one is eclectic, open, flexible, patient, good listener, offers some great feedback without lecturing, and well, I guess there is just really no power pull there, no giant therapist hat like I've felt with so many others. She's light, doesn't over-pathologize. We're a team. I just needed a kind person to speak with, say anything, sit with. I was going bonkers here in my head. She noticed how heavy my meanderings were, how hard I was on myself. At one point I just started walking around the room like an elephant swaying my trunk, as that's how it felt after I heard my own story aloud..we got a good laugh out of this. So I'm bringing a lot of my ACT practice to the sessions..sometimes I will directly reference it as ACT-y, sometimes not. It matters not. It's so precious, this hour. And so overdue..I'd only been in therapy very sporadically (really hardly any save but maybe a dozen or so sessions with three different people) for the last 6 years or so. I hope you find someone you can talk with live. Preferably a few, but one for starters is very good. I think we all need that.

Control really is the problem. I am getting this big time. Wow, how it shows up everywhere..the mind's need to figure out what it's going to be like, what might go wrong, what sort of danger I'm in now simply because he said that in that way or she did that in that way..danger, danger...everywhere. Much of it is defensive posturing around deeper fears is all. 

Now a lot less trying to control for that which can't be controlled for. And more attention directed to what I can and what I value attending to. I'm showing up for my committed goals, letting go of attachment to outcome more and more. And it's a really good thing.

And just letting good in is huge for me. Anyhow..I don't really know what to say, Bruce.. but I would invite you to open yourself up a bit more to finding and allowing some slices of good, some joyous moments, some light, peace in the most unexpected ways, unforeseen places unanticipated times. 

Kind regards,Terry> > >> > > I hope everyone on the list is doing well today. I myself am stuck > > in> > > suffering without much to do. In this situation, I struggle with

> > > rumination. It's another boring day on the job where I am doing > > enough> > > to stay employed and pull my weight but that's about it.> > >> > > I always look forward to messages from the list but there hasn't 

> > been> > > much in the past few days. I hope that means that things are good > > for> > > most of us. It's my wish that all of us would be well.> > >

> > > Bruce> > >> > >> >> >> >>

[Guest guest]

Oh dear, I'd like to re-hire you this morning : ) ... that is, if you'll let me! I've been beating myself up all night as I tried to sleep for putting these unkind words out there to you. I am really sorry. Once again, the minute I get a little smug about getting this ACT stuff, I do something or say something stupid that brings me down a notch. When I am stressed out, I tend to snap like a turtle and I find the silliest things to find fault with. I thought I was over that! Anyway, I am back on track, I think. See ... I'm smiling!

I understand what you were saying to Bruce, and it's a good point and true for all of us.

Thanks!Helena

From: "Darrell King" <DarrellGKinggmail>To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 12:05:44 AMSubject: Re: Re: Recovery Stories/ Control is the Problem

LOL. I was feeling humorous–sorry. I like humor.Bruce said that he was sticking with the practice even though it was a difficult day. My point was that I believe most of us have to do that same thing at times and since I believe it is the correct choice, I wanted to say so. it wasn't about sounding good, but rather about being in agreement.I will consider myself fired....D> >> Darrell, I don't get what you are saying ... "sounds like Bruce is doing quite well ???" And "nobody ever promised you a rose garden?" <groan>>> >> And "good for you, sir?">> >> Like he GOT IT? >> >> You sound like the kind of therapist that tries to make things sound good so the client will believe you. I fired every one of those I ever had.>> >> >> >> >> ________________________________>> From: "Darrell King" <DarrellGKinggmail>> To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >> Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 6:22:18 PM> Subject: Re: Re: Recovery Stories/ Control is the Problem>> >> Sounds to me like you are doing quite well, Bruce. Nobody ever promised us a rose garden and all that, so acceptance is pretty much what we are left with. Here in my world, if things are good today (in this moment), then I don't worry about what might happen when I "crack" (the future). I am always trying to improve myself, of course, but I have lost too many present moments by wallowing in future anxiety and so being "accepting of what is" is a high priority for me!>> Good for you, sir! I will be interested in how it plays out for you.>> D>> On Saturday, November 5, 2011, Bruce Carlson <onebnzcomcast (DOT) net> wrote:>> >>>> Yes, I see the problem. I just don't know what I can do about it. I guess a big part of me does think that I'm responsible for myself, it's not her responsibility for me to be healthy and whole. And I can't change her, I can only change myself. I've tried being open about my struggles and it hasn't worked out very well. Today, things are good between us. I guess I feel that's as long as I don't crack.>>>> I wish things were different but they aren't. I'm trying to be accepting of what is and go from there.>> I appreciate your good wishes. I really do. It's a challenging day and I'm trying to practice...>> Bruce>>>>>> >>>> My wife is supportive but also threatened by my emotional troubles. She wants me to work them out on my own, with whatever I need to do that. When I have shared or asked for her help, she gets very angry.>>>> >>>> Do you not see the disconnection in your very answer??? Supportive ... threatened ... work it out on your own ... whatever you need ... gets angry ...>>>> >> >>>> Love ya,>>>> Helena>>>> >>>> ________________________________>>>> From: "Bruce Carlson" <onebnzcomcast (DOT) net>>> To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >>> Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 3:10:00 PM>> Subject: Re: Re: Recovery Stories/ Control is the Problem>>>> >>>> No, it is not too personal to ask. My wife is supportive but also threatened by my emotional troubles. She wants me to work them out on my own, with whatever I need to do that. When I have shared or asked for her help, she gets very angry. So it's a mixed bag there. I wish I could lean on her more but it is what is.>>>> I wonder about the physical, too. I have been checked by several doctors, both MDs and a naturopath and nothing has been found. I had low vitamin D but that has been corrected. It didn't make any difference in my mood. One thing about the physical is that I tend to feel better late at night. Nothing has changed physically then so maybe it is all in my head. It sure feels physical, though. I'm taking a bunch of amino acids now, based on the Mood Cure book, plus vitamins and fish oil. So far nothing has made a positive difference.>> Thanks,>> Bruce>>>>>> >>>> If I don't keep trying, I'll just end up huddled in a ball crying. And I can't let that happen.>>>> >>>> ...why not just break down and cry? Why can't you let that happen? What is the worst thing that could happen if you just let go? Just break down and cry?>>>> Forgive me if I am hitting too personally here, but are you married? ... if so, does your wife share in / understand / stand by you in your struggles? You have talked of your daughter often but never about any other family members. I am simply curious and do not wish to intrude, but have to wonder about your relationships and how they affect / shape your life. Sorry if I am getting too personal, and please feel free to not divulge more than you are comfortable with.>>>> >>>> I always, always wonder when it comes to you and your symptoms: Is something physical going on? I know I brought this up before and you answered it, but something about that question still bugs me.>>>> >>>> Caring,>>>> >>>> Helena>>>>>> ________________________________>>>> From: "Bruce Carlson" <onebnzcomcast (DOT) net>>> To: "ACT for the Public" <--> Darrell G King, RN, CASAC-T> Rochester, NY, US> http://darrellking.com> DarrellGKinggmail>> -- Darrell G King, RN, CASAC-TRochester, NY, UShttp://darrellking.comDarrellGKinggmail

[Guest guest]

She sounds like a great person, . Yes, strong and head-strong, as every Helena is! We can't help it; it's in the name, lol! Thanks for giving us a glimpse of your life and for sharing how special your family is to you. I am happy you have an understanding wife - a true "help-mate." My best to you and her, and to your boys : ) Family is so important.

Helena 2

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 9:55:21 PMSubject: Re: Re: Recovery Stories/ Control is the Problem

Thks...her name by the way is also Helena! Though we both have separate career and jobs, she has learned to be more

financially asture and aggresive, in a way...our provider. It's okay with her, its her blesing, not a burden. Being bi-polar,

her main problem before with me is overrunning my credit cards (on high). She not mad about that, but not to tell her about it

and hide my debts from her, that's unacceptable...because it involves the whole family's survival. She has learned to make

provisions rather than expecting me to be perfect. She'd taken a lot of "hits" from me, but each year she gets smarter...I'm not the

only lucky one, my boys as well.

She's one head-strong woman, sounds familiar? =)

To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 8:36 AMSubject: Re: Re: Recovery Stories/ Control is the Problem

All I meant was that seeing women as 'less then' is sick; as needing men to be a provider - that is such a narrow viewpoint. What you describe is not at all sick and is, in fact, very strong. You have a wonderful woman by your side, . Thank you for telling us about her. Cherish her!

Helena

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 8:21:03 PMSubject: Re: Re: Recovery Stories/ Control is the Problem

It's not necessarily sick, it's a reality. Women and wives/girlfriends are just human being...they're not trained to be therapist or something.

Being scared is just being human. When she stands by you whether she's scared or really trying to help...specially if has gone through the years,

they're not necessarily martyrs, but they see the other side of you that she fell in love with, that's why she stays, and not expected to be perfect...

i know that for the last 25 years....she's still with me and does her part. On times when I fall apart, she's there to be just being a stronger and

sensible person and picks up the slacks I scatter around, and much more, she keeps our family intact and grow through the years. She taught

our sons to be accepting of what I am, even if they could not understand and feel frustrated if they can't do more to help. Next year both boys

will graduate from college.

Even last week, when i have same episodes all through this years (i can't totally shake 'em, i just shake with them) they come and feels as if it's

always just the first time, she reminds me of our "drill" and tells me how i survive...tomorrow, it will pass again. She gets her strentgh from her sisters

and friends. Even if some of her friends have urged her to leave me just for her sanity, no matter how tempted she is at times, she survives by

focusing on our family's unity and that the boys have a father that they can see and talk to everyday. "Thanks, sweetheat"...

I hope this shared story helps somebody.

To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 7:08 AMSubject: Re: Re: Recovery Stories/ Control is the Problem

I think it scares some women a bit when their man is not functioning well because they need a provider.

That viewpoint is sick. Sick!

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 4:01:04 PMSubject: Re: Recovery Stories/ Control is the Problem

I have often found that my girlfriends are not very supportive of me.When I mwas badly hypoglyceamic, which was caused by antidepressantdrugs but it never abated for years after stopping taking them, I wasliving on cabbage, greens, and cheese. My girlfriend would say to mewhen I come around you later better have had your dinner because I don'twant see you eating your muck.I think it scares some women a bit when their man is not functioningwell because they need a provider. My new girlfriend is a bit more easygoing but she thinks that all my problems are just in the mind and areare not real. I don't argue with her and I just get on with it.When I was going through a roller coaster I was very scared but I saweach day as a chance to learn how to ride the storm. I saw it as anopportunity to impreve my coping skills and when I got to the end of theday I felt that I had achieved something. I never looked forward to thenext day very much but I could visualise that I would eventually getthrough the storm. Clare Weekes would say, feel the courage deep in thepit of your stomach, encourage it. Riding the storm is a skill, likelearnig ACT. Nowadays I am not put out so much by a sleepless night, ortwo, , or extreme stress, as I willingly suffer and move on. Not easy,but start small by sailing today's waves.Right now I am going through the 'mincer' again too - which is beingcaused by my job. It is absolute hell, and my body might pack up beforeI win through, but I think I am quite physically strong. But I have nochoice but to go through this.Kv

[Guest guest]

Kaivey, my apologies to you as well for taking something you said out of context and being critical of it.

Helena

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 4:01:04 PMSubject: Re: Recovery Stories/ Control is the Problem

I have often found that my girlfriends are not very supportive of me.When I mwas badly hypoglyceamic, which was caused by antidepressantdrugs but it never abated for years after stopping taking them, I wasliving on cabbage, greens, and cheese. My girlfriend would say to mewhen I come around you later better have had your dinner because I don'twant see you eating your muck.I think it scares some women a bit when their man is not functioningwell because they need a provider. My new girlfriend is a bit more easygoing but she thinks that all my problems are just in the mind and areare not real. I don't argue with her and I just get on with it.When I was going through a roller coaster I was very scared but I saweach day as a chance to learn how to ride the storm. I saw it as anopportunity to impreve my coping skills and when I got to the end of theday I felt that I had achieved something. I never looked forward to thenext day very much but I could visualise that I would eventually getthrough the storm. Clare Weekes would say, feel the courage deep in thepit of your stomach, encourage it. Riding the storm is a skill, likelearnig ACT. Nowadays I am not put out so much by a sleepless night, ortwo, , or extreme stress, as I willingly suffer and move on. Not easy,but start small by sailing today's waves.Right now I am going through the 'mincer' again too - which is beingcaused by my job. It is absolute hell, and my body might pack up beforeI win through, but I think I am quite physically strong. But I have nochoice but to go through this.Kv> > > > >> > > > > I hope everyone on the list is doing well today. I myself am> > stuck> > > > in> > > > > suffering without much to do. In this situation, I strugglewith> > > > > rumination. It's another boring day on the job where I amdoing> > > > enough> > > > > to stay employed and pull my weight but that's about it.> > > > >> > > > > I always look forward to messages from the list but therehasn't> > > > been> > > > > much in the past few days. I hope that means that things are> > good> > > > for> > > > > most of us. It's my wish that all of us would be well.> > > > >> > > > > Bruce> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Helena. Sometimes I've been caught up with myself that I lose tract of even appreciating all of my wife's sacrifices for me and my family.

I also have an elder sister, though she's lives in another far-off continent, is my de-facto coach/therapist. She's more involved in my "episode to

episode" happenings, that is, if I even bother to "report" or reach out to her. She's also a "saint", being not "married" to me, she can afford to deal

with all my hang-ups that helps my wife as well. They to check on each other from time to time. They also know that in spite of all these "blessings"

I have, when the mood strikes...they don't expect me to be "that" appreciative of my blessings and my gifts...I have friends and collegues who go

all the way out to cover and assist me when I can't go to the office sometimes. It's a bit like abusing the system, but once I'm up, I compensate

by doing the best I could.

I feel for Bruce, because on my down days, my thoughts and self-awareness is almost like his. =(. But once i'm up, I'm a different person and quickly

forget my past neurotic thoughts and their generated feelings. That's why, it's always very confusing, because whenever the downs hits me, it's as if it's

only the first time it's happening to me and I'm lost and clueless again.

At the moment, I'm enjoying myself and being productive...I love my wife and my sister and my boys!

Cheers,

To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 6:44 PMSubject: Re: Re: Recovery Stories/ Control is the Problem

She sounds like a great person, . Yes, strong and head-strong, as every Helena is! We can't help it; it's in the name, lol! Thanks for giving us a glimpse of your life and for sharing how special your family is to you. I am happy you have an understanding wife - a true "help-mate." My best to you and her, and to your boys : ) Family is so important.

Helena 2

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 9:55:21 PMSubject: Re: Re: Recovery Stories/ Control is the Problem

Thks...her name by the way is also Helena! Though we both have separate career and jobs, she has learned to be more

financially asture and aggresive, in a way...our provider. It's okay with her, its her blesing, not a burden. Being bi-polar,

her main problem before with me is overrunning my credit cards (on high). She not mad about that, but not to tell her about it

and hide my debts from her, that's unacceptable...because it involves the whole family's survival. She has learned to make

provisions rather than expecting me to be perfect. She'd taken a lot of "hits" from me, but each year she gets smarter...I'm not the

only lucky one, my boys as well.

She's one head-strong woman, sounds familiar? =)

To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 8:36 AMSubject: Re: Re: Recovery Stories/ Control is the Problem

All I meant was that seeing women as 'less then' is sick; as needing men to be a provider - that is such a narrow viewpoint. What you describe is not at all sick and is, in fact, very strong. You have a wonderful woman by your side, . Thank you for telling us about her. Cherish her!

Helena

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 8:21:03 PMSubject: Re: Re: Recovery Stories/ Control is the Problem

It's not necessarily sick, it's a reality. Women and wives/girlfriends are just human being...they're not trained to be therapist or something.

Being scared is just being human. When she stands by you whether she's scared or really trying to help...specially if has gone through the years,

they're not necessarily martyrs, but they see the other side of you that she fell in love with, that's why she stays, and not expected to be perfect...

i know that for the last 25 years....she's still with me and does her part. On times when I fall apart, she's there to be just being a stronger and

sensible person and picks up the slacks I scatter around, and much more, she keeps our family intact and grow through the years. She taught

our sons to be accepting of what I am, even if they could not understand and feel frustrated if they can't do more to help. Next year both boys

will graduate from college.

Even last week, when i have same episodes all through this years (i can't totally shake 'em, i just shake with them) they come and feels as if it's

always just the first time, she reminds me of our "drill" and tells me how i survive...tomorrow, it will pass again. She gets her strentgh from her sisters

and friends. Even if some of her friends have urged her to leave me just for her sanity, no matter how tempted she is at times, she survives by

focusing on our family's unity and that the boys have a father that they can see and talk to everyday. "Thanks, sweetheat"...

I hope this shared story helps somebody.

To: ACT for the Public <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 7:08 AMSubject: Re: Re: Recovery Stories/ Control is the Problem

I think it scares some women a bit when their man is not functioning well because they need a provider.

That viewpoint is sick. Sick!

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 4:01:04 PMSubject: Re: Recovery Stories/ Control is the Problem

I have often found that my girlfriends are not very supportive of me.When I mwas badly hypoglyceamic, which was caused by antidepressantdrugs but it never abated for years after stopping taking them, I wasliving on cabbage, greens, and cheese. My girlfriend would say to mewhen I come around you later better have had your dinner because I don'twant see you eating your muck.I think it scares some women a bit when their man is not functioningwell because they need a provider. My new girlfriend is a bit more easygoing but she thinks that all my problems are just in the mind and areare not real. I don't argue with her and I just get on with it.When I was going through a roller coaster I was very scared but I saweach day as a chance to learn how to ride the storm. I saw it as anopportunity to impreve my coping skills and when I got to the end of theday I felt that I had achieved something. I

never looked forward to thenext day very much but I could visualise that I would eventually getthrough the storm. Clare Weekes would say, feel the courage deep in thepit of your stomach, encourage it. Riding the storm is a skill, likelearnig ACT. Nowadays I am not put out so much by a sleepless night, ortwo, , or extreme stress, as I willingly suffer and move on. Not easy,but start small by sailing today's waves.Right now I am going through the 'mincer' again too - which is beingcaused by my job. It is absolute hell, and my body might pack up beforeI win through, but I think I am quite physically strong. But I have nochoice but to go through this.Kv

[Guest guest]

Ah, Helena, perhaps I will hire you! My life is my practice and that makes you a teacher and a lesson. Thank you for this note–I was a little scared of what I might find today.... This reaching out put a smile on my face, however, and bound us closer.

When I was young, in the forests of New Hampshire, I put my foot in a stream and then noticed it was only inches from a snapping turtle. It did not bite me despite my rude intrusion and I have had a fondness for the critters ever since....

D>  >> Oh dear, I'd like to re-hire you this morning : )  ... that is, if you'll let me!  I've been beating myself up all night as I tried to sleep for putting these unkind words out there to you.  I am really sorry.  Once again, the minute I get a little smug about getting this ACT stuff, I do something or say something stupid that brings me down a notch.  When I am stressed out, I tend to snap like a turtle and I find the silliest things to find fault with.  I thought I was over that!  Anyway, I am back on track, I think.  See ... I'm smiling!

>>  >> I understand what you were saying to Bruce, and it's a good point and true for all of us.>>  >> Thanks!> Helena>> ________________________________

>> > To: " ACT for the Public " <ACT_for_the_Public >

> Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 12:05:44 AM> Subject: Re: Re: Recovery Stories/ Control is the Problem>>  >> LOL. I was feeling humorous–sorry. I like humor.

>> Bruce said that he was sticking with the practice even though it was a difficult day. My point was that I believe most of us have to do that same thing at times and since I believe it is the correct choice, I wanted to say so. it wasn't about sounding good, but rather about being in agreement.

>> I will consider myself fired....>> D>> >>  >>>> Darrell, I don't get what you are saying  ...  " sounds like Bruce is doing quite well ??? "   And " nobody ever promised you a rose garden? "   <groan>

>>>>  >>>> And " good for you, sir? " >>>>  >>>> Like he GOT IT? >>>>  >>>> You sound like the kind of therapist that tries to make things sound good so the client will believe you.  I fired every one of those I ever had.

>>>>  >>>>  >>>>  >>>>  >>>> ________________________________>>>>

>> To: " ACT for the Public " <ACT_for_the_Public >>> Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 6:22:18 PM>> Subject: Re: Re: Recovery Stories/ Control is the Problem

>>>>  >>>> Sounds to me like you are doing quite well, Bruce. Nobody ever promised us a rose garden and all that, so acceptance is pretty much what we are left with. Here in my world, if things are good today (in this moment), then I don't worry about what might happen when I " crack " (the future). I am always trying to improve myself, of course, but I have lost too many present moments by wallowing in future anxiety and so being " accepting of what is " is a high priority for me!

>>>> Good for you, sir! I will be interested in how it plays out for you.>>>> D>>>>

>>>  >>>>>> Yes, I see the problem. I just don't know what I can do about it. I guess a big part of me does think that I'm responsible for myself, it's not her responsibility for me to be healthy and whole. And I can't change her, I can only change myself. I've tried being open about my struggles and it hasn't worked out very well. Today, things are good between us. I guess I feel that's as long as I don't crack.

>>>>>> I wish things were different but they aren't. I'm trying to be accepting of what is and go from there.>>> I appreciate your good wishes. I really do. It's a challenging day and I'm trying to practice...

>>> Bruce>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> My wife is supportive but also threatened by my emotional troubles. She wants me to work them out on my own, with whatever I need to do that. When I have shared or asked for her help, she gets very angry.

>>>>>>  >>>>>> Do you not see the disconnection in your very answer???  Supportive ... threatened ... work it out on your own ... whatever you need ... gets angry ...>>>

>>>  >>>  >>>>>> Love ya,>>>>>> Helena>>>>>>  >>>>>> ________________________________>>>

>>> From:  " Bruce Carlson " >>> To:  " ACT for the Public " <ACT_for_the_Public >

>>> Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 3:10:00 PM>>> Subject: Re: Re: Recovery Stories/ Control is the Problem>>>>>>  >>>>>> No, it is not too personal to ask. My wife is supportive but also threatened by my emotional troubles. She wants me to work them out on my own, with whatever I need to do that. When I have shared or asked for her help, she gets very angry. So it's a mixed bag there. I wish I could lean on her more but it is what is.

>>>>>> I wonder about the physical, too. I have been checked by several doctors, both MDs and a naturopath and>> -- Darrell G King, RN, CASAC-TRochester, NY, UShttp://darrellking.comDarrellGKing@...

[Guest guest]

Thank you again, Dr. . This is so helpful. I especially like the line "feelings are the exhaust pipe of life". I have gotten into the mode where I must feel better or my life is a failure. It's like this morning, by looking at my computer clock I remembered that the clocks rolled back today and thought, 'oh no, I have an extra hour to get through today'. That sucks as a way to live. I know it but that's where my mind goes. One of my big problems is that my mind spontaneously goes for the negative and depressing. I consciously bring it back but the feeling from the original thought just lingers. One reason I'm afraid of my feelings is I don't want to be a negative, angry and afraid person. I don't like that and don't want to put that out to other people. I was laying in bed this morning trying to accept my feelings and it was just one fearful and/or angry thought after another. These thoughts all pass by but the feelings they generate linger constantly. To use the tennis analogy again, it's like trying to enjoy playing tennis while suffering stomach cramps. That's a pretty good description of me, trying to pretend that everything is fine while all the while my stomach is screaming at me to give up. I guess I think it's unreasonable to have to play tennis with stomach cramps. Why would you do it? I physically feel worn out. I need to somehow change my attitude. You are right when you describe me as not knowing what else to do and I appreciate the food for thought you have put in your messages.I'm glad for the messages on the list of people having good experiences and feelings today. I'm looking at today as a long and tough day but I'm glad it's not like that for everyone. Maybe there is hope for me, too.Thanks again,Bruce The language of a game might be useful if it helps direct you back to choice.Imagine a "game" in which all the losers are shot. My guess a "game" like that is not a game at all. In a real game you choose an outcome and you hold it as important -- then there are processes to followin that game that you also choose to hold as important. A game is a choice. Let's say you are playing "I want to be a good dad." The future is not here yet. You couldplay that game and then your son is hit by a truck. So the game is not in the outcome. And if God could say "tell you what ... I will snap my fingers and your son turned out great but you did nothing" that would be the outcome but not the process. That's not being a good Dad either. Thats just your son turning out OK.The language of a game reminds you it is a choice that sets up a process right now.When you say "I'd just like to be able enjoy a movie, or TV show, or a book or sporting event. Is that too much to ask?" that is the old game leaking. Like "the universe should be fair ... or care if it isn't" or "I should get what I want as long as it is reasonable ... and I'm not getting it" or just "I don't want to feel bad." In all of those you are choosing the directions and the processes too -- you just forgot you did it (or it was so conventional and fused that you never noticed the choice you made -- you may not have even known you have a choice). It is a pretty normal game -- the culture supports it massively.The direction is feeling good and the process is fairness or reasonableness. The problem is that once problems show up those games are boring and unwinnable. Once problems show up one feels good (or lives well either) playing them. No one. You neither. If it is a game its a rigged one.When you say "I don't know what else to do" you likely mean a bit of this: "I don't know what else to do to get the universe to be fair... or to care if it isn't" or "I don't know what else to do to get what I want as long as it is reasonable" or "I don't know what else to do to stop feeling bad." I know it is not 100% -- I sense some cracks in the system that is strangling you -- but the part above that is leaking the old song isn't the kind of giving up that will create genuinely new options. That's still checkers to win at dominos. The outcomes will not change one bit. Acceptance and commitment are not a different methods. They are about a different purpose. The kind of shift we need is something like "I'm giving up on the happiness trap. I'm going to start living for another purpose. I'm going to stand with myself when I feel bad or good or indifferent and not run away.I'm going to stand with myself when I think I'm moving forward or backward or sideways and notice my mind do its thing. I'm going to take that leap of faith that my life is whole and valid, and I'm going to startlooking with curiosity (not judgment) at the rise and fall of my experiences. From that place in which I'm more than my programming I'm going to put down the self-focused feel-o-meter that has me measuring my life in teaspoon fulls of the "right emotion." And when I put down that metric --that "feel-o-meter" -- I'm going to show up as a conscious human being and gently turn my life moments toward _____[insert chosen values here ] _______, as a process (not an outcome)." Of course those are just words. Inside there is something more than words. Feelings are the exhaust of life. Using them as the prime measure is like trying to steer a car bysniffing its tail pipe. Your pain is your biggest ally here. That and taking your life back down off the shelf. The pain of what is present and the pain of what is absent. These are you allies -- after allthey are your experiences. Not the cultures. Not Mamas. Yours. If you have not really read and done the work books like "the happiness trap" or "get out of your mind and into your life" they will help. So will the community here.thank you for seeing caring inside the whacks. I'm not whacking you -- I'm whacking at the freakin mind talk that has you.I would be like a by-standing whacker a dog that has gone for your throat Peace, love, and life - S C. Foundation ProfessorDepartment of Psychology /298 University of NevadaReno, NV 89557-0062"Love isn't everything, it's the only thing"hayes@... or stevenchayes@... Fax: Psych Department: Contextual Change (you can use this number for messages if need be): Blogs: Psychology Today http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/get-out-your-mind Huffington Post http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steven-c-hayes-phdIf you want my vita, publications, PowerPoint slides, try my training page or my blog at the ACBS site: http://www.contextualpsychology.org/steven_hayes http://www.contextualpsychology.org/blog/steven_hayes or you can try my website (it is semi-functional) stevenchayes.comIf you have any questions about ACT or RFT (articles, AAQ information etc), please first check the vast resources at website of the Association for Contextual Behavioral Science (ACBS): www.contextualpsychology.org. You have to register on the site to download things, but the cost if up to your own values. If you are a professional or student and want to be part of the world wide ACT discussion or RFT discussions go to http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy/join orhttp://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/relationalframetheory/joinIf you are a member of the public reading ACT self-help books (e.g., "Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life" etc) and want to be part of the conversation go to: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join Thank you for this, Dr. . I see the truth in what you say and I really appreciate your taking the time to write. I guess it's true that I'd like someone to rescue me. I've been so lost that I guess I'm grasping for any hope. That maybe there's a simple solution to live in a way that I perceive as normal. There is no doubt that the way I am is not working. I'm going to re-read this and try and really get the meaning. I would like to renounce the whole game I'm playing. I'm just playing a game that will get me by but leads to more and more pain. I'd like to get out of this game. I'm just don't know what else to do. It's like not liking tennis but being forced to play tennis and nothing else every day. I'd just like to be able enjoy a movie, or TV show, or a book or sporting event. Is that too much to ask? Right now it is, I suppose. Thank you again. I know nobody can change things but me. I just don't feel like the right person for the job, based on my job performance so far.Bruce There is a piece of this that goes like so: if Isay I am in enough pain, clearly enough or loudly enough,someone or something will rescue me.It seems logical. It even worked, a bit, back when we were kids. But the chronic emotional pain of adults is not like the thingswe face when we were kids. Besides, we are not as cute.Eventually our cries for help just drive others away.Meanwhile the only person who can move us forward remains here: it is our responsibility. We have the ability to respond. Experience is saying something. Look and see if it is not saying, loud and clear, "This is not working."The "this" includes following the idea that if I say I am in enough pain, clearly enough or loudly enough,someone or something will rescue me.There is a paradox right in front of us.It is in what you have written. "I seem to have lost the ability to relax and enjoy anything. It seems like I can only keep a tight hold on myself to try and control my emotions. I know this is wrong but I'm at a loss as to what to do about it. I engage in activities that should be enjoyable by normal standards and get no spontaneous enjoyment from it." Bruce, you are at a loss about what to do? Bruce, how about this. NO MORE OF THAT. I RENOUNCE THAT WHOLE GAME. I DON'T KNOW WHAT ELSE TO DO, BUT NO MORE OF THAT.Will that make you feel any better? Let's just say "no." At best it will make you FEEL a bit better. But isn't trying something to see if it makes you feel better the very game that is producing this set of results?How's it working for you? Have you had enough? If you went to a doctor complaining of a headache and the doctor saw that all the while you werebeating your head with a hammer, the doc might say "ah, gee, first how about no more of that." Look man, I'm not blaming you. You are doing what humans do ... all of us untillife itself beats us to a bloddy pulp and our own pain finally produces some wisdom.It is not fun to "keep a tight hold on myself to try and control my emotions." Your own life is a testament to it. Inside that struggle even fun is not fun! You remember when you use to say to your Mom "I'm bored Mom"and whatever she suggested didn't work? That is because it isboring to try not to be bored. You are learning a similar lesson -- or at least it is there to be learned. See if this is not true: it is not fun to try try hard to feel fun so that the pain goes away.What if that is how it works? what if entanglement with that whole system is like a hammer to your head? How much suffering is enough?And precisely who is going to rescue you from your own purposes. If I weighed 1000 pounds and had a dozen guns strapped to my body I might be able to make your arms and hards move the way I want to, like a puppet on a string. But even then I could never make you change your purpose: that is something deep inside only you can decide What if the problem is the agenda itself, not the method of accomplishing it? Not everyone wakes up to that, but if you but read what you have written the evidence is right there in front of you. Look. It is right there. There is an alternative. But it is not an alternative method. It is an alternative purpose. The game, the agenda, the purpose is yours, no one else's. Ask yourself this. What have I put on hold while I've gone inside this endless struggle?If you dropped the "feel good first" game, there might be a lot more interesting games to play? Like "love good first" or "contribute well first"or "be myself first." Will those make you feel good? I dunno, but if you play them in order to feel good its likeplaying Checkers to win at Dominos. Good freakin luck Your own pain has earned you the ticket into another agenda. You've paid a lot -- hopefully enough for that shift of agenda; for that "no more of that" moment. We are rooting for you -- we are you, and you are us. Your journey is our journey. You are not alone. And yet this turn is something only you can do. We are rooting for you - S C. Foundation ProfessorDepartment of Psychology /298University of Nevada Reno, NV 89557-0062"Love isn't everything, it's the only thing"hayes@... or stevenchayes@... Fax: Psych Department: Contextual Change (you can use this number for messages if need be): Blogs: Psychology Today http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/get-out-your-mind Huffington Post http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steven-c-hayes-phd If you want my vita, publications, PowerPoint slides, try my training page or my blog at the ACBS site: http://www.contextualpsychology.org/steven_hayes http://www.contextualpsychology.org/blog/steven_hayes or you can try my website (it is semi-functional) stevenchayes.com If you have any questions about ACT or RFT (articles, AAQ information etc), please first check the vast resources at website of the Association for Contextual Behavioral Science (ACBS): www.contextualpsychology.org. You have to register on the site to download things, but the cost if up to your own values. If you are a professional or student and want to be part of the world wide ACT discussion or RFT discussions go to http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy/join orhttp://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/relationalframetheory/joinIf you are a member of the public reading ACT self-help books (e.g., "Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life" etc) and want to be part of the conversation go to: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join I don't really have anything in my life that I would call fun. I seem to have lost the ability to relax and enjoy anything. It seems like I can only keep a tight hold on myself to try and control my emotions. I know this is wrong but I'm at a loss as to what to do about it. I engage in activities that should be enjoyable by normal standards and get no spontaneous enjoyment from it. This is very frustrating. I have a tough time with moment to moment enjoyment of the things you mention. Do people really enjoy those things? I have a hard time with feeling the beauty of nature, etc. I see it and acknowledge it but it doesn't touch me at any emotional level. I try and meditate but don't get any serenity from that, either. The biggest thing I do is journal and that keeps me going but it's pretty repetitive. I know a lot of it is a waste of time. You are right that I have a strong desire to control pain and avoid it. I don't feel like I can handle pain, although I know I have handled a lot of it and I'm creating most of the pain I experience now myself. I feel like if I don't control myself and situations, that I will completely fall apart and let everyone down. If I don't keep trying, I'll just end up huddled in a ball crying. And I can't let that happen. So letting go of control, over myself at least, seems very threatening. Plus, it seems the pursuing valued action requires that level of forcing myself for me. It doesn't arise spontaneously. Just getting through the day requires a lot of thought and effort for everyday things, like brushing my teeth. I'm just starting with a new therapist. I have been seeing one for awhile but am stuck for progress. We just keep going over the same issues and childhood stuff. I hope the new one I've found will be helpful. I'm trying to eat better, cut out sugar and exercise, take supplements and vitamins, etc. Not a lot of success with that but some. Progress anyway. Thank you for reaching out in reply to my message. I can't believe how bad I sound. I really appreciate your support and desire to help.Bruce Bruce, you'll never get completely out of your head..we're all stuck with this. But the practice here does help if you keep to it. I'd say a job well done is nothing to minimize. It made me sad it seemed you weren't able to find some joy in that accomplishment today. Do you do anything that you would call fun? What sorts of hobbies, interests do you have? Since you stopped drinking, what do you do now with all that time and money? What about nurturing self-care? Do you move your body enough, get sunshine, eat well? Do you do any deep breathing work, anything that centers you, self as process work? Do you find any enjoyment in moment to moment things, like the sun rising, setting, a child playing, animals about in the park? Today I walked in the rain and it was just exquisite. Do you have a compassionate therapist? This is making the biggest difference for me now. I gave up on looking for an ACT or even a "mindfulness" therapist and just went for a really compassionate, humanistic style person This one is eclectic, open, flexible, patient, good listener, offers some great feedback without lecturing, and well, I guess there is just really no power pull there, no giant therapist hat like I've felt with so many others. She's light, doesn't over-pathologize. We're a team. I just needed a kind person to speak with, say anything, sit with. I was going bonkers here in my head. She noticed how heavy my meanderings were, how hard I was on myself. At one point I just started walking around the room like an elephant swaying my trunk, as that's how it felt after I heard my own story aloud..we got a good laugh out of this. So I'm bringing a lot of my ACT practice to the sessions..sometimes I will directly reference it as ACT-y, sometimes not. It matters not. It's so precious, this hour. And so overdue..I'd only been in therapy very sporadically (really hardly any save but maybe a dozen or so sessions with three different people) for the last 6 years or so. I hope you find someone you can talk with live. Preferably a few, but one for starters is very good. I think we all need that. Control really is the problem. I am getting this big time. Wow, how it shows up everywhere..the mind's need to figure out what it's going to be like, what might go wrong, what sort of danger I'm in now simply because he said that in that way or she did that in that way..danger, danger...everywhere. Much of it is defensive posturing around deeper fears is all. Now a lot less trying to control for that which can't be controlled for. And more attention directed to what I can and what I value attending to. I'm showing up for my committed goals, letting go of attachment to outcome more and more. And it's a really good thing. And just letting good in is huge for me. Anyhow..I don't really know what to say, Bruce.. but I would invite you to open yourself up a bit more to finding and allowing some slices of good, some joyous moments, some light, peace in the most unexpected ways, unforeseen places unanticipated times. Kind regards,Terry> > >> > > I hope everyone on the list is doing well today. I myself am stuck > > in> > > suffering without much to do. In this situation, I struggle with > > > rumination. It's another boring day on the job where I am doing > > enough> > > to stay employed and pull my weight but that's about it.> > >> > > I always look forward to messages from the list but there hasn't > > been> > > much in the past few days. I hope that means that things are good > > for> > > most of us. It's my wish that all of us would be well.> > > > > > Bruce> > >> > >> >> >> >>

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I certainly would not fire you, either. I appreciate your comments.Bruce Ah, Helena, perhaps I will hire you! My life is my practice and that makes you a teacher and a lesson. Thank you for this note–I was a little scared of what I might find today.... This reaching out put a smile on my face, however, and bound us closer. When I was young, in the forests of New Hampshire, I put my foot in a stream and then noticed it was only inches from a snapping turtle. It did not bite me despite my rude intrusion and I have had a fondness for the critters ever since.... D> >> Oh dear, I'd like to re-hire you this morning : ) ... that is, if you'll let me! I've been beating myself up all night as I tried to sleep for putting these unkind words out there to you. I am really sorry. Once again, the minute I get a little smug about getting this ACT stuff, I do something or say something stupid that brings me down a notch. When I am stressed out, I tend to snap like a turtle and I find the silliest things to find fault with. I thought I was over that! Anyway, I am back on track, I think. See ... I'm smiling! >> >> I understand what you were saying to Bruce, and it's a good point and true for all of us.>> >> Thanks!> Helena>> ________________________________ >> > To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public > > Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 12:05:44 AM> Subject: Re: Re: Recovery Stories/ Control is the Problem>> >> LOL. I was feeling humorous–sorry. I like humor. >> Bruce said that he was sticking with the practice even though it was a difficult day. My point was that I believe most of us have to do that same thing at times and since I believe it is the correct choice, I wanted to say so. it wasn't about sounding good, but rather about being in agreement. >> I will consider myself fired....>> D>> >> >>>> Darrell, I don't get what you are saying ... "sounds like Bruce is doing quite well ???" And "nobody ever promised you a rose garden?" <groan> >>>> >>>> And "good for you, sir?">>>> >>>> Like he GOT IT? >>>> >>>> You sound like the kind of therapist that tries to make things sound good so the client will believe you. I fired every one of those I ever had. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________>>>> >> To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >>> Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 6:22:18 PM>> Subject: Re: Re: Recovery Stories/ Control is the Problem >>>> >>>> Sounds to me like you are doing quite well, Bruce. Nobody ever promised us a rose garden and all that, so acceptance is pretty much what we are left with. Here in my world, if things are good today (in this moment), then I don't worry about what might happen when I "crack" (the future). I am always trying to improve myself, of course, but I have lost too many present moments by wallowing in future anxiety and so being "accepting of what is" is a high priority for me! >>>> Good for you, sir! I will be interested in how it plays out for you.>>>> D>>>> >>> >>>>>> Yes, I see the problem. I just don't know what I can do about it. I guess a big part of me does think that I'm responsible for myself, it's not her responsibility for me to be healthy and whole. And I can't change her, I can only change myself. I've tried being open about my struggles and it hasn't worked out very well. Today, things are good between us. I guess I feel that's as long as I don't crack. >>>>>> I wish things were different but they aren't. I'm trying to be accepting of what is and go from there.>>> I appreciate your good wishes. I really do. It's a challenging day and I'm trying to practice... >>> Bruce>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> My wife is supportive but also threatened by my emotional troubles. She wants me to work them out on my own, with whatever I need to do that. When I have shared or asked for her help, she gets very angry. >>>>>> >>>>>> Do you not see the disconnection in your very answer??? Supportive ... threatened ... work it out on your own ... whatever you need ... gets angry ...>>> >>> >>> >>>>>> Love ya,>>>>>> Helena>>>>>> >>>>>> ________________________________>>> >>> >>> To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public > >>> Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 3:10:00 PM>>> Subject: Re: Re: Recovery Stories/ Control is the Problem>>>>>> >>>>>> No, it is not too personal to ask. My wife is supportive but also threatened by my emotional troubles. She wants me to work them out on my own, with whatever I need to do that. When I have shared or asked for her help, she gets very angry. So it's a mixed bag there. I wish I could lean on her more but it is what is. >>>>>> I wonder about the physical, too. I have been checked by several doctors, both MDs and a naturopath and>> -- Darrell G King, RN, CASAC-TRochester, NY, UShttp://darrellking.comDarrellGKing@...