Guest guest Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 Hi JimThe only way you can avoid pain in life is by locking yourself away from the world. Never meet or trust another person, in case they shun you or let you down; never explore the hillsides in case you fall. Etc. So you can lock yourself away (avoidance) or choose to live a life worth living but know, accept (and embrace?) the fact that it has ups and downs. So yes, life involves pain and disappointment (as well as joy and happiness).I'm not sure what is ACT-lore on the meaning of words, but some people define "suffering" specifically as being a form of avoidable pain. You suffer when you try and fight what is inevitable. So, perhaps you have been let down by a family member. That will hurt: unavoidable. You can amplify that hurt by then engaging in a struggle with the fact you've been let down. So maybe you will engage in unhelpful thinking about what that family member might think of you, or perhaps start a fight with them because they've hurt you, or something. That might lead to suffering. (But to me, that's all playing with words. What we call things isn't important, as long as we understand them).Incidentally, it is fine for you to disagree with ACT and what you are being told / reading. I learnt most about ACT when I have poked a little bit at it with a stick on this forum. I get useful responses, and I learn and move forward.Good luck x To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, 2 January 2012, 6:03 Subject: Pain and suffering Hi,Just to get back to basics here for a moment:from the ACT point of view does life inevitably bring pain or suffering, or both? I am a bit confused as I seem to have read some conflicting information on this.Quiet an important issue for me, though.Cheers,Jim------------------------------------For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.orgIf you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may unsubscribe by sending an email to ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links<*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/<*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional<*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join (Yahoo! ID required)<*> To change settings via email: ACT_for_the_Public-digest ACT_for_the_Public-fullfeatured <*> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 Thanks for your writing. Jess > > Hi Jim > > The only way you can avoid pain in life is by locking yourself away from the world. Never meet or trust another person, in case they shun you or let you down; never explore the hillsides in case you fall. Etc. So you can lock yourself away (avoidance) or choose to live a life worth living but know, accept (and embrace?) the fact that it has ups and downs. So yes, life involves pain and disappointment (as well as joy and happiness). > > > I'm not sure what is ACT-lore on the meaning of words, but some people define " suffering " specifically as being a form of avoidable pain. You suffer when you try and fight what is inevitable. So, perhaps you have been let down by a family member. That will hurt: unavoidable. You can amplify that hurt by then engaging in a struggle with the fact you've been let down. So maybe you will engage in unhelpful thinking about what that family member might think of you, or perhaps start a fight with them because they've hurt you, or something. That might lead to suffering. (But to me, that's all playing with words. What we call things isn't important, as long as we understand them). > > > Incidentally, it is fine for you to disagree with ACT and what you are being told / reading. I learnt most about ACT when I have poked a little bit at it with a stick on this forum. I get useful responses, and I learn and move forward. > > > Good luck > > x > > > > > > ________________________________ > > To: ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Monday, 2 January 2012, 6:03 > Subject: Pain and suffering > > > Hi, > > Just to get back to basics here for a moment:from the ACT point of view does life inevitably bring pain or suffering, or both? I am a bit confused as I seem to have read some conflicting information on this. > > Quiet an important issue for me, though. > > Cheers, > > Jim > > > > ------------------------------------ > > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org > > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > unsubscribe by sending an email to > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 Hi ,Yes, I seem to remember that GOYMYL makes the same distinction between suffering and pain. I can definitely see the difference. What I am wondering is if ACT suggests that a life without suffering is possible. Obviously, it is not possible to live life without pain but some would suggest (Buddhists seem to say so ) that suffering is optional. However, from where I'm sitting it seems unlikely that suffering is optional; certain patterns of thinking seem far too ingrained and powerful too ever be free of.. In fact, to think that suffering is optional causes me more suffering . I guess many people would probably advise me to stop worrying about that and just get on with valued living. There is definitely a lot to be said for that. But I am wondering why ACT people do make a distinction between pain and suffering- what's the practical use of it? Cheers,Jim To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 5:07 PM Subject: Re: Pain and suffering Hi JimThe only way you can avoid pain in life is by locking yourself away from the world. Never meet or trust another person, in case they shun you or let you down; never explore the hillsides in case you fall. Etc. So you can lock yourself away (avoidance) or choose to live a life worth living but know, accept (and embrace?) the fact that it has ups and downs. So yes, life involves pain and disappointment (as well as joy and happiness).I'm not sure what is ACT-lore on the meaning of words, but some people define "suffering" specifically as being a form of avoidable pain. You suffer when you try and fight what is inevitable. So, perhaps you have been let down by a family member. That will hurt: unavoidable. You can amplify that hurt by then engaging in a struggle with the fact you've been let down. So maybe you will engage in unhelpful thinking about what that family member might think of you, or perhaps start a fight with them because they've hurt you, or something. That might lead to suffering. (But to me, that's all playing with words. What we call things isn't important, as long as we understand them).Incidentally, it is fine for you to disagree with ACT and what you are being told / reading. I learnt most about ACT when I have poked a little bit at it with a stick on this forum. I get useful responses, and I learn and move forward.Good luck x To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, 2 January 2012, 6:03 Subject: Pain and suffering Hi,Just to get back to basics here for a moment:from the ACT point of view does life inevitably bring pain or suffering, or both? I am a bit confused as I seem to have read some conflicting information on this.Quiet an important issue for me, though.Cheers,Jim------------------------------------For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.orgIf you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may unsubscribe by sending an email to ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links<*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/<*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional<*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join (Yahoo! ID required)<*> To change settings via email: ACT_for_the_Public-digest ACT_for_the_Public-fullfeatured <*> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 > > What I am wondering is if ACT suggests that a life without > suffering is possible. Jim, I've read discussions elsewhere (on the ACT professional list, specifically) that suggest we need only make a distinction between pain and suffering when it seems like it might help, right then & there. In other words, ACT per se has no interest in a literal argument one way or the other about whether suffering can be eliminated entirely. I.e. it's not theory but a choice. We can practice opening up to the pain of life, without pushing away the feelings of pain as themselves being unacceptable. That may not satisfy your mind any more than it does mine, but it needn't. - Randy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 Hi Jim, I think suffering causes you suffering because you fight against it. Just let it be there and it will flow..I think that suffering is often automatic and if it's true that we can sometimes just let the pain we're experiencing flow thus preventing the rise of suffering it is sometimes really hard not to get entangled and become emotionally involved. And there comes suffering. At this point the only thing to do is let the suffering be there and and sooner or later it'll go away as it's come.I hope this can be helpful to you as it's for me..Cheers, Delia To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 12:36 PM Subject: Re: Pain and suffering Hi , Yes, I seem to remember that GOYMYL makes the same distinction between suffering and pain. I can definitely see the difference. What I am wondering is if ACT suggests that a life without suffering is possible. Obviously, it is not possible to live life without pain but some would suggest (Buddhists seem to say so ) that suffering is optional. However, from where I'm sitting it seems unlikely that suffering is optional; certain patterns of thinking seem far too ingrained and powerful too ever be free of.. In fact, to think that suffering is optional causes me more suffering . I guess many people would probably advise me to stop worrying about that and just get on with valued living. There is definitely a lot to be said for that. But I am wondering why ACT people do make a distinction between pain and suffering- what's the practical use of it? Cheers,Jim To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 5:07 PM Subject: Re: Pain and suffering Hi JimThe only way you can avoid pain in life is by locking yourself away from the world. Never meet or trust another person, in case they shun you or let you down; never explore the hillsides in case you fall. Etc. So you can lock yourself away (avoidance) or choose to live a life worth living but know, accept (and embrace?) the fact that it has ups and downs. So yes, life involves pain and disappointment (as well as joy and happiness).I'm not sure what is ACT-lore on the meaning of words, but some people define "suffering" specifically as being a form of avoidable pain. You suffer when you try and fight what is inevitable. So, perhaps you have been let down by a family member. That will hurt: unavoidable. You can amplify that hurt by then engaging in a struggle with the fact you've been let down. So maybe you will engage in unhelpful thinking about what that family member might think of you, or perhaps start a fight with them because they've hurt you, or something. That might lead to suffering. (But to me, that's all playing with words. What we call things isn't important, as long as we understand them).Incidentally, it is fine for you to disagree with ACT and what you are being told / reading. I learnt most about ACT when I have poked a little bit at it with a stick on this forum. I get useful responses, and I learn and move forward.Good luck x To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, 2 January 2012, 6:03 Subject: Pain and suffering Hi,Just to get back to basics here for a moment:from the ACT point of view does life inevitably bring pain or suffering, or both? I am a bit confused as I seem to have read some conflicting information on this.Quiet an important issue for me, though.Cheers,Jim------------------------------------For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.orgIf you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may unsubscribe by sending an email to ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links<*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/<*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional<*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join (Yahoo! ID required)<*> To change settings via email: ACT_for_the_Public-digest ACT_for_the_Public-fullfeatured <*> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 One other thought - Jim wrote, " Certain patterns of thinking seem far too ingrained and powerful to ever be free of. " Another way of seeing it is like this: is suffering a bottomless pit - meaning we can never " get to the bottom " of it - or is it more like something we do, like running? If it is like a bottomless pit, sure, forget it. But if it is more like running, then " running " only exists as this seemingly " ingrained and powerful state " for as long as we are running. If we stop then suddenly we are not running, and that " powerful state " .. . . vanishes. This is not original to me. Some guy named came up with the analogy. You can read more about it here: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy/message/20496 The context is somewhat different but I think the point is the same. - Randy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 Hi Delia,Thanks for the response. I like the term 'automatic suffering'. For me it is far easier to be accepting if I think of some suffering as automatic or a necessary part of life that cannot be escaped.CheersJim To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 7:50 PM Subject: Re: Pain and suffering Hi Jim, I think suffering causes you suffering because you fight against it. Just let it be there and it will flow..I think that suffering is often automatic and if it's true that we can sometimes just let the pain we're experiencing flow thus preventing the rise of suffering it is sometimes really hard not to get entangled and become emotionally involved. And there comes suffering. At this point the only thing to do is let the suffering be there and and sooner or later it'll go away as it's come.I hope this can be helpful to you as it's for me..Cheers, Delia To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 12:36 PM Subject: Re: Pain and suffering Hi , Yes, I seem to remember that GOYMYL makes the same distinction between suffering and pain. I can definitely see the difference. What I am wondering is if ACT suggests that a life without suffering is possible. Obviously, it is not possible to live life without pain but some would suggest (Buddhists seem to say so ) that suffering is optional. However, from where I'm sitting it seems unlikely that suffering is optional; certain patterns of thinking seem far too ingrained and powerful too ever be free of.. In fact, to think that suffering is optional causes me more suffering . I guess many people would probably advise me to stop worrying about that and just get on with valued living. There is definitely a lot to be said for that. But I am wondering why ACT people do make a distinction between pain and suffering- what's the practical use of it? Cheers,Jim To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 5:07 PM Subject: Re: Pain and suffering Hi JimThe only way you can avoid pain in life is by locking yourself away from the world. Never meet or trust another person, in case they shun you or let you down; never explore the hillsides in case you fall. Etc. So you can lock yourself away (avoidance) or choose to live a life worth living but know, accept (and embrace?) the fact that it has ups and downs. So yes, life involves pain and disappointment (as well as joy and happiness).I'm not sure what is ACT-lore on the meaning of words, but some people define "suffering" specifically as being a form of avoidable pain. You suffer when you try and fight what is inevitable. So, perhaps you have been let down by a family member. That will hurt: unavoidable. You can amplify that hurt by then engaging in a struggle with the fact you've been let down. So maybe you will engage in unhelpful thinking about what that family member might think of you, or perhaps start a fight with them because they've hurt you, or something. That might lead to suffering. (But to me, that's all playing with words. What we call things isn't important, as long as we understand them).Incidentally, it is fine for you to disagree with ACT and what you are being told / reading. I learnt most about ACT when I have poked a little bit at it with a stick on this forum. I get useful responses, and I learn and move forward.Good luck x To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, 2 January 2012, 6:03 Subject: Pain and suffering Hi,Just to get back to basics here for a moment:from the ACT point of view does life inevitably bring pain or suffering, or both? I am a bit confused as I seem to have read some conflicting information on this.Quiet an important issue for me, though.Cheers,Jim------------------------------------For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.orgIf you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may unsubscribe by sending an email to ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links<*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/<*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional<*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join (Yahoo! ID required)<*> To change settings via email: ACT_for_the_Public-digest ACT_for_the_Public-fullfeatured <*> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 Thanks Randy,Both responses are very interesting and I'm going to read 's post again now. Cheers,Jim To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 8:05 PM Subject: Re: Pain and suffering One other thought - Jim wrote, "Certain patterns of thinking seem far too ingrained and powerful to ever be free of." Another way of seeing it is like this: is suffering a bottomless pit - meaning we can never "get to the bottom" of it - or is it more like something we do, like running? If it is like a bottomless pit, sure, forget it. But if it is more like running, then "running" only exists as this seemingly "ingrained and powerful state" for as long as we are running. If we stop then suddenly we are not running, and that "powerful state" .. . . vanishes. This is not original to me. Some guy named came up with the analogy. You can read more about it here: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy/message/20496 The context is somewhat different but I think the point is the same. - Randy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 I think of suffering as the consequence of struggling with the pain. Use ACT to stop the struggle. The more I use it the less I struggle. Hard work at times but worth it. My suffering is almost always worse than the pain I struggle with (with which I struggle!) Bill Pain and suffering Hi, Just to get back to basics here for a moment:from the ACT point of view does life inevitably bring pain or suffering, or both? I am a bit confused as I seem to have read some conflicting information on this. Quiet an important issue for me, though. Cheers, Jim ------------------------------------ For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may unsubscribe by sending an email to ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: ACT_for_the_Public-digest ACT_for_the_Public-fullfeatured <*> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 Hi JimThe practical use is in letting people see that (1) pain naturally occurs when you live a worthwhile life.... but that (2) everyone on this forum has as some point run that pain through a big-ass amplifier, because we have tried to fight, question, dwell on, read significance into, or in some other way struggle with that pain.You can't escape pain, but you can stop amplifying it. That is the usefulness of the distinction between (1) and (2).Today I am working on a new application for funding for my job. I've been at it all over Christmas. Every time I open the application form I get filled with fear and pain about what will happen if I don't get that funding, and that I am left unemployed. What will happen to me, and my family? Am I good enough to get the funding? I've heard that only 10% of applicants get funded, so I will probably be left without a job. As I've typed these words, tears have started to roll down my cheeks, and it hurts me a lot. I feel very frightened, in this moment.So, as I feel this pain, right in this very moment, what am I going to do? I am naturally given the ability to either fight it, or to flight from it. But instead I will choose another ability I am very slowly learning, that of acceptance. I am breathing in, and all around this pain, and letting it be there. I can feel little moments where I try to fight it, and I will spot that fight, and I will concoct a mental image where I ever so gently pick the snag free, and let it go. There. I've been doing that for 3 or 4 mintues or so now (time is hard to convey in an email), and feel that I didn't do much amplification of my pain at all. Getting better as I go. I can still feel the pain, it's not gone, but it has gone back to a dormant shape for now.I will now press "send", make a cuppa, and start back on my application, and do the best I possibly can.I hope this has helped to demonstrate the usefulness of distinguishing between the two types of pain.Best wishes x To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Monday, 2 January 2012, 11:36 Subject: Re: Pain and suffering Hi ,Yes, I seem to remember that GOYMYL makes the same distinction between suffering and pain. I can definitely see the difference. What I am wondering is if ACT suggests that a life without suffering is possible. Obviously, it is not possible to live life without pain but some would suggest (Buddhists seem to say so ) that suffering is optional. However, from where I'm sitting it seems unlikely that suffering is optional; certain patterns of thinking seem far too ingrained and powerful too ever be free of.. In fact, to think that suffering is optional causes me more suffering . I guess many people would probably advise me to stop worrying about that and just get on with valued living. There is definitely a lot to be said for that. But I am wondering why ACT people do make a distinction between pain and suffering- what's the practical use of it? Cheers,Jim To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 5:07 PM Subject: Re: Pain and suffering Hi JimThe only way you can avoid pain in life is by locking yourself away from the world. Never meet or trust another person, in case they shun you or let you down; never explore the hillsides in case you fall. Etc. So you can lock yourself away (avoidance) or choose to live a life worth living but know, accept (and embrace?) the fact that it has ups and downs. So yes, life involves pain and disappointment (as well as joy and happiness).I'm not sure what is ACT-lore on the meaning of words, but some people define "suffering" specifically as being a form of avoidable pain. You suffer when you try and fight what is inevitable. So, perhaps you have been let down by a family member. That will hurt: unavoidable. You can amplify that hurt by then engaging in a struggle with the fact you've been let down. So maybe you will engage in unhelpful thinking about what that family member might think of you, or perhaps start a fight with them because they've hurt you, or something. That might lead to suffering. (But to me, that's all playing with words. What we call things isn't important, as long as we understand them).Incidentally, it is fine for you to disagree with ACT and what you are being told / reading. I learnt most about ACT when I have poked a little bit at it with a stick on this forum. I get useful responses, and I learn and move forward.Good luck x To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, 2 January 2012, 6:03 Subject: Pain and suffering Hi,Just to get back to basics here for a moment:from the ACT point of view does life inevitably bring pain or suffering, or both? I am a bit confused as I seem to have read some conflicting information on this.Quiet an important issue for me, though.Cheers,Jim------------------------------------For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.orgIf you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may unsubscribe by sending an email to ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links<*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/<*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional<*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join (Yahoo! ID required)<*> To change settings via email: ACT_for_the_Public-digest ACT_for_the_Public-fullfeatured <*> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 " big-ass amplifier " Exactly!!!!!!!!!!! Where the heck is the power button or at least the volume control? And yet it can go away as fast as it came on.BillTo: ACT_for_the_Public From: oscar.robson@...Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 14:07:46 +0000Subject: Re: Pain and suffering Hi JimThe practical use is in letting people see that (1) pain naturally occurs when you live a worthwhile life.... but that (2) everyone on this forum has as some point run that pain through a big-ass amplifier, because we have tried to fight, question, dwell on, read significance into, or in some other way struggle with that pain.You can't escape pain, but you can stop amplifying it. That is the usefulness of the distinction between (1) and (2).Today I am working on a new application for funding for my job. I've been at it all over Christmas. Every time I open the application form I get filled with fear and pain about what will happen if I don't get that funding, and that I am left unemployed. What will happen to me, and my family? Am I good enough to get the funding? I've heard that only 10% of applicants get funded, so I will probably be left without a job. As I've typed these words, tears have started to roll down my cheeks, and it hurts me a lot. I feel very frightened, in this moment.So, as I feel this pain, right in this very moment, what am I going to do? I am naturally given the ability to either fight it, or to flight from it. But instead I will choose another ability I am very slowly learning, that of acceptance. I am breathing in, and all around this pain, and letting it be there. I can feel little moments where I try to fight it, and I will spot that fight, and I will concoct a mental image where I ever so gently pick the snag free, and let it go. There. I've been doing that for 3 or 4 mintues or so now (time is hard to convey in an email), and feel that I didn't do much amplification of my pain at all. Getting better as I go. I can still feel the pain, it's not gone, but it has gone back to a dormant shape for now.I will now press "send", make a cuppa, and start back on my application, and do the best I possibly can.I hope this has helped to demonstrate the usefulness of distinguishing between the two types of pain.Best wishes x To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Monday, 2 January 2012, 11:36 Subject: Re: Pain and suffering Hi ,Yes, I seem to remember that GOYMYL makes the same distinction between suffering and pain. I can definitely see the difference. What I am wondering is if ACT suggests that a life without suffering is possible. Obviously, it is not possible to live life without pain but some would suggest (Buddhists seem to say so ) that suffering is optional. However, from where I'm sitting it seems unlikely that suffering is optional; certain patterns of thinking seem far too ingrained and powerful too ever be free of.. In fact, to think that suffering is optional causes me more suffering . I guess many people would probably advise me to stop worrying about that and just get on with valued living. There is definitely a lot to be said for that. But I am wondering why ACT people do make a distinction between pain and suffering- what's the practical use of it? Cheers,Jim To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 5:07 PM Subject: Re: Pain and suffering Hi JimThe only way you can avoid pain in life is by locking yourself away from the world. Never meet or trust another person, in case they shun you or let you down; never explore the hillsides in case you fall. Etc. So you can lock yourself away (avoidance) or choose to live a life worth living but know, accept (and embrace?) the fact that it has ups and downs. So yes, life involves pain and disappointment (as well as joy and happiness).I'm not sure what is ACT-lore on the meaning of words, but some people define "suffering" specifically as being a form of avoidable pain. You suffer when you try and fight what is inevitable. So, perhaps you have been let down by a family member. That will hurt: unavoidable. You can amplify that hurt by then engaging in a struggle with the fact you've been let down. So maybe you will engage in unhelpful thinking about what that family member might think of you, or perhaps start a fight with them because they've hurt you, or something. That might lead to suffering. (But to me, that's all playing with words. What we call things isn't important, as long as we understand them).Incidentally, it is fine for you to disagree with ACT and what you are being told / reading. I learnt most about ACT when I have poked a little bit at it with a stick on this forum. I get useful responses, and I learn and move forward.Good luck x To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, 2 January 2012, 6:03 Subject: Pain and suffering Hi,Just to get back to basics here for a moment:from the ACT point of view does life inevitably bring pain or suffering, or both? I am a bit confused as I seem to have read some conflicting information on this.Quiet an important issue for me, though.Cheers,Jim------------------------------------For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.orgIf you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may unsubscribe by sending an email to ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links<*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/<*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional<*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join (Yahoo! 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Guest guest Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 Maybe something like 'sweating' has more in common with suffering than running. We could, in theory, never choose to run again and so never run again. This wouldn't work with sweating. Suffering like sweating just seems to be part of the human condition. To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 8:05 PM Subject: Re: Pain and suffering One other thought - Jim wrote, "Certain patterns of thinking seem far too ingrained and powerful to ever be free of." Another way of seeing it is like this: is suffering a bottomless pit - meaning we can never "get to the bottom" of it - or is it more like something we do, like running? If it is like a bottomless pit, sure, forget it. But if it is more like running, then "running" only exists as this seemingly "ingrained and powerful state" for as long as we are running. If we stop then suddenly we are not running, and that "powerful state" .. . . vanishes. This is not original to me. Some guy named came up with the analogy. You can read more about it here: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy/message/20496 The context is somewhat different but I think the point is the same. - Randy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 Jim - I think we have a strong tendency to suffer with our pain but I am convinced that ACT and other mindfulness-based processes can certainly ease the suffering. But it takes hard work and practice, which can sometimes feel like the pain.Happy New YearBillTo: ACT_for_the_Public From: hensbyjim@...Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 07:02:21 -0800Subject: Re: Re: Pain and suffering Maybe something like 'sweating' has more in common with suffering than running. We could, in theory, never choose to run again and so never run again. This wouldn't work with sweating. Suffering like sweating just seems to be part of the human condition. To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 8:05 PM Subject: Re: Pain and suffering One other thought - Jim wrote, "Certain patterns of thinking seem far too ingrained and powerful to ever be free of." Another way of seeing it is like this: is suffering a bottomless pit - meaning we can never "get to the bottom" of it - or is it more like something we do, like running? If it is like a bottomless pit, sure, forget it. But if it is more like running, then "running" only exists as this seemingly "ingrained and powerful state" for as long as we are running. If we stop then suddenly we are not running, and that "powerful state" .. . . vanishes. This is not original to me. Some guy named came up with the analogy. You can read more about it here: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy/message/20496 The context is somewhat different but I think the point is the same. - Randy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 Hi,I've tried various methods much the same as you describe. My experience is that they work a bit- sometimes. But that is better than nothing! And it's all very interesting stuff.Good luck with your job hunt-.Good to hear from you- Bill,Cheers,Jim To: ACT_for_the_Public <act_for_the_public > Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 9:58 PM Subject: RE: Pain and suffering " big-ass amplifier " Exactly!!!!!!!!!!! Where the heck is the power button or at least the volume control? And yet it can go away as fast as it came on.BillTo: ACT_for_the_Public From: oscar.robson@...Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 14:07:46 +0000Subject: Re: Pain and suffering Hi JimThe practical use is in letting people see that (1) pain naturally occurs when you live a worthwhile life.... but that (2) everyone on this forum has as some point run that pain through a big-ass amplifier, because we have tried to fight, question, dwell on, read significance into, or in some other way struggle with that pain.You can't escape pain, but you can stop amplifying it. That is the usefulness of the distinction between (1) and (2).Today I am working on a new application for funding for my job. I've been at it all over Christmas. Every time I open the application form I get filled with fear and pain about what will happen if I don't get that funding, and that I am left unemployed. What will happen to me, and my family? Am I good enough to get the funding? I've heard that only 10% of applicants get funded, so I will probably be left without a job. As I've typed these words, tears have started to roll down my cheeks, and it hurts me a lot. I feel very frightened, in this moment.So, as I feel this pain, right in this very moment, what am I going to do? I am naturally given the ability to either fight it, or to flight from it. But instead I will choose another ability I am very slowly learning, that of acceptance. I am breathing in, and all around this pain, and letting it be there. I can feel little moments where I try to fight it, and I will spot that fight, and I will concoct a mental image where I ever so gently pick the snag free, and let it go. There. I've been doing that for 3 or 4 mintues or so now (time is hard to convey in an email), and feel that I didn't do much amplification of my pain at all. Getting better as I go. I can still feel the pain, it's not gone, but it has gone back to a dormant shape for now.I will now press "send", make a cuppa, and start back on my application, and do the best I possibly can.I hope this has helped to demonstrate the usefulness of distinguishing between the two types of pain.Best wishes x To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Monday, 2 January 2012, 11:36 Subject: Re: Pain and suffering Hi ,Yes, I seem to remember that GOYMYL makes the same distinction between suffering and pain. I can definitely see the difference. What I am wondering is if ACT suggests that a life without suffering is possible. Obviously, it is not possible to live life without pain but some would suggest (Buddhists seem to say so ) that suffering is optional. However, from where I'm sitting it seems unlikely that suffering is optional; certain patterns of thinking seem far too ingrained and powerful too ever be free of.. In fact, to think that suffering is optional causes me more suffering . I guess many people would probably advise me to stop worrying about that and just get on with valued living. There is definitely a lot to be said for that. But I am wondering why ACT people do make a distinction between pain and suffering- what's the practical use of it? Cheers,Jim To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 5:07 PM Subject: Re: Pain and suffering Hi JimThe only way you can avoid pain in life is by locking yourself away from the world. Never meet or trust another person, in case they shun you or let you down; never explore the hillsides in case you fall. Etc. So you can lock yourself away (avoidance) or choose to live a life worth living but know, accept (and embrace?) the fact that it has ups and downs. So yes, life involves pain and disappointment (as well as joy and happiness).I'm not sure what is ACT-lore on the meaning of words, but some people define "suffering" specifically as being a form of avoidable pain. You suffer when you try and fight what is inevitable. So, perhaps you have been let down by a family member. That will hurt: unavoidable. You can amplify that hurt by then engaging in a struggle with the fact you've been let down. So maybe you will engage in unhelpful thinking about what that family member might think of you, or perhaps start a fight with them because they've hurt you, or something. That might lead to suffering. (But to me, that's all playing with words. What we call things isn't important, as long as we understand them).Incidentally, it is fine for you to disagree with ACT and what you are being told / reading. I learnt most about ACT when I have poked a little bit at it with a stick on this forum. I get useful responses, and I learn and move forward.Good luck x To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, 2 January 2012, 6:03 Subject: Pain and suffering Hi,Just to get back to basics here for a moment:from the ACT point of view does life inevitably bring pain or suffering, or both? I am a bit confused as I seem to have read some conflicting information on this.Quiet an important issue for me, though.Cheers,Jim------------------------------------For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.orgIf you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may unsubscribe by sending an email to ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links<*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/<*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional<*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join (Yahoo! ID required)<*> To change settings via email: ACT_for_the_Public-digest ACT_for_the_Public-fullfeatured <*> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 Yes, I just feel that by aiming for reduction of suffering I find myself not accepting the suffering that I do. On the bright side I do find some relief if I fully expect to be suffering on and off forever. To: ACT_for_the_Public <act_for_the_public > Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 10:10 PM Subject: RE: Re: Pain and suffering Jim - I think we have a strong tendency to suffer with our pain but I am convinced that ACT and other mindfulness-based processes can certainly ease the suffering. But it takes hard work and practice, which can sometimes feel like the pain.Happy New YearBillTo: ACT_for_the_Public From: hensbyjim@...Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 07:02:21 -0800Subject: Re: Re: Pain and suffering Maybe something like 'sweating' has more in common with suffering than running. We could, in theory, never choose to run again and so never run again. This wouldn't work with sweating. Suffering like sweating just seems to be part of the human condition. To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 8:05 PM Subject: Re: Pain and suffering One other thought - Jim wrote, "Certain patterns of thinking seem far too ingrained and powerful to ever be free of." Another way of seeing it is like this: is suffering a bottomless pit - meaning we can never "get to the bottom" of it - or is it more like something we do, like running? If it is like a bottomless pit, sure, forget it. But if it is more like running, then "running" only exists as this seemingly "ingrained and powerful state" for as long as we are running. If we stop then suddenly we are not running, and that "powerful state" .. . . vanishes. This is not original to me. Some guy named came up with the analogy. You can read more about it here: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy/message/20496 The context is somewhat different but I think the point is the same. - Randy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 .... Some of you might find this blog entry interesting.http://michaelbogar.blogspot.com/2009/04/is-it-true-that-pain-is-unavoidable-but.html >> I think of suffering as the consequence of struggling with the pain. Use ACT to stop the struggle. The more I use it the less I struggle. Hard work at times but worth it. My suffering is almost always worse than the pain I struggle with (with which I struggle!)> Bill> > Pain and suffering> > > Hi,> > Just to get back to basics here for a moment:from the ACT point of view does life inevitably bring pain or suffering, or both? I am a bit confused as I seem to have read some> conflicting information on this.> > Quiet an important issue for me,> though.> > Cheers,> > Jim> > > > ------------------------------------> > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org> > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may> unsubscribe by sending an email to> ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 Very nice Beverly! Bill Pain and suffering Hi, Just to get back to basics here for a moment:from the ACT point of view does life inevitably bring pain or suffering, or both? I am a bit confused as I seem to have read some conflicting information on this. Quiet an important issue for me, though. Cheers, Jim ------------------------------------ For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may unsubscribe by sending an email to ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for _the_Public/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: ACT_for_the_Public-digest ACT_for_the_Public-fullfeatured <*> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 Well, yeah. (Paraphrasing Dr. Phil.)Cheers,Detlef>> > Hi,> > Just to get back to basics here for a moment:from the ACT point of view does life inevitably bring pain or suffering, or both? I am a bit confused as I seem to have read some conflicting information on this.> > Quiet an important issue for me, though.> > Cheers,> > Jim> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 Thank you- Very interesting. To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 10:48 PMSubject: Re: Pain and suffering .... Some of you might find this blog entry interesting.http://michaelbogar.blogspot.com/2009/04/is-it-true-that-pain-is-unavoidable-but.html >> I think of suffering as the consequence of struggling with the pain. Use ACT to stop the struggle. The more I use it the less I struggle. Hard work at times but worth it. My suffering is almost always worse than the pain I struggle with (with which I struggle!)> Bill> > Pain and suffering> > > Hi,> > Just to get back to basics here for a moment:from the ACT point of view does life inevitably bring pain or suffering, or both? I am a bit confused as I seem to have read some> conflicting information on this.> > Quiet an important issue for me,> though.> > Cheers,> > Jim> > > > ------------------------------------> > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org> > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may> unsubscribe by sending an email to> ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 Thank you. Yes, it is helpful sometimes. I keep practicing. To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Monday, January 2, 2012 10:49 PMSubject: Re: Pain and suffering For me Jim, it's a practical and helpful distinction. I can never eliminate suffering and when I notice I am experiencing suffering I have an option. At first it can seem invalidating. I thought, "you are blaming me for my suffering?" Then as I stopped to notice what was happening, what was inside my suffering. I could begin to separate the situation usually a painful event from how I was relating to the event (thoughts feelings memories expectations about the event). Many times I realize that my mind is trying to protect me. Trying to prevent me from having to experience the painful event. It is trying to solve a problem. What I am coming to realize is that feelings memories thoughts are not problems to be solved. They are experiences. Don't know if this is helpful for you and this process works in my life.BeverlyConnected by DROID on Verizon Wireless Pain and sufferingHi,Just to get back to basics here for a moment:from the ACT point of view does life inevitably bring pain or suffering, or both? I am a bit confused as I seem to have read some conflicting information on this.Quiet an important issue for me, though.Cheers,Jim------------------------------------For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.orgIf you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may unsubscribe by sending an email to ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links<*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/<*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional<*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for _the_Public/join (Yahoo! ID required)<*> To change settings via email: ACT_for_the_Public-digest ACT_for_the_Public-fullfeatured <*> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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