Re: Stress at work

[Guest guest]

I don't think that opting for a lower stress job is necessarily avoidance.  It all comes to the reason that you're making the choice, and that those reasons are based on your values.For instance, if what you really value is engaging in some vital activity, and your current work situation leaves you with little energy and time for it, I'd say opting for a different job that allows you to engage in it is not avoidance at all.

On the other hand, if you're currently working at a job which is far below your capability, and you're refusing to grow because you label anything which is out of a limited comfort zone as " too stressful " then I'd say you were engaging in avoidance.

Of course there are many points on this continuum.  I'd suggest really being honest with yourself about the reasons that you're choosing the job...

 

Hello

I'm mulling over my career. Not in the best frame of mind to do that (job is under threat, and I'm applying for new funding with deadline of next Weds!) but a question keeps returning. Is it legitimate to want a lower-stress job, or is that just avoidance?

I long for a rather more wholesome working life than the one I have now, which is full of competitiveness (both in a business sense, and amongst coworkers), judgmental attitudes, late working, horrendous god-awful commuting and - yes, most of all - high stress.

I would like a job with less stress. Or are all jobs stressful - because they are what we make of them. I have a friend who is more experienced than me, but my junior, who never sought advancement because she didn't want the responsibility. I don't think it was because she lacked confidence. She certainly doesn't regret her choices. Should that be where I should go? I've followed promotions and moved jobs, actually because I thought to avoid doing so would make me feel like a failure, by avoidance. But that's not a very good reason, is it?

I've read a pamplet on workplace stress. Stress is a gap between the pressures of responsibility and demands upon you, against (your perceptions of) your capacity to manage them. If I " step down " into a job with fewer pressures, will my perception of my capacity to manage them also reduce... so I'm left in the same boat?

At the moment I can't do my job well. I can't concentrate, I keep forgetting things. I leave the office regularly because tears force me out. I'm left weeping (so humiliating) on the train home. This is not all in the mind - this is stopping me from functioning.

Thank you. Cathartic. A stream of thoughts written onto this forum actually acts as defusion for me. I will leave them here and go to bed. Have the answer for me ready for the morning, will you please? :0)

Night x

[Guest guest]

I just went back and re-read what I wrote and realized that it may have sounded glib based on the level of stress that you seem to be feeling.  Rest assured that was not my intent...

I don't think that opting for a lower stress job is necessarily avoidance.  It all comes to the reason that you're making the choice, and that those reasons are based on your values.

For instance, if what you really value is engaging in some vital activity, and your current work situation leaves you with little energy and time for it, I'd say opting for a different job that allows you to engage in it is not avoidance at all.

On the other hand, if you're currently working at a job which is far below your capability, and you're refusing to grow because you label anything which is out of a limited comfort zone as " too stressful " then I'd say you were engaging in avoidance.

Of course there are many points on this continuum.  I'd suggest really being honest with yourself about the reasons that you're choosing the job...

 

Hello

I'm mulling over my career. Not in the best frame of mind to do that (job is under threat, and I'm applying for new funding with deadline of next Weds!) but a question keeps returning. Is it legitimate to want a lower-stress job, or is that just avoidance?

I long for a rather more wholesome working life than the one I have now, which is full of competitiveness (both in a business sense, and amongst coworkers), judgmental attitudes, late working, horrendous god-awful commuting and - yes, most of all - high stress.

I would like a job with less stress. Or are all jobs stressful - because they are what we make of them. I have a friend who is more experienced than me, but my junior, who never sought advancement because she didn't want the responsibility. I don't think it was because she lacked confidence. She certainly doesn't regret her choices. Should that be where I should go? I've followed promotions and moved jobs, actually because I thought to avoid doing so would make me feel like a failure, by avoidance. But that's not a very good reason, is it?

I've read a pamplet on workplace stress. Stress is a gap between the pressures of responsibility and demands upon you, against (your perceptions of) your capacity to manage them. If I " step down " into a job with fewer pressures, will my perception of my capacity to manage them also reduce... so I'm left in the same boat?

At the moment I can't do my job well. I can't concentrate, I keep forgetting things. I leave the office regularly because tears force me out. I'm left weeping (so humiliating) on the train home. This is not all in the mind - this is stopping me from functioning.

Thank you. Cathartic. A stream of thoughts written onto this forum actually acts as defusion for me. I will leave them here and go to bed. Have the answer for me ready for the morning, will you please? :0)

Night x

[Guest guest]

Hi :I can tell you that not all jobs are stressful. My job is so stress-free that it stresses me out. By that I mean I would like a job with more interaction and more activity. But my colleagues are great and the hours are very flexible. The pay is good and supports my family. I like the work, I just wish there was more of it. The description of your job serves to make me grateful for what I have. But I certainly have not maximized my career potential and I often feel very, very bad about that. I beat myself up and criticize myself for not making more of my work life and living up to my potential. And now I'm old enough and my family situation is such that a radical change of careers is not a good option. An awful lot of my dissatisfaction is my depression talking. If I were not suffering from depression, I'm sure my attitude would be much different. I think it is legitimate to want a job that fits your values. There is always the potential to ramp up your effort for higher performance at the expense of the rest of your life. I have been very involved in my daughter's life and my job has allowed that. I go to all her school functions and conferences and if I had a more demanding job, I wouldn't be able to do that. This isn't something I consciously chose, however. It just happened. Part of me would like a job where it was important for me to be at work all the time. I guess I want the perfect blend and that probably doesn't exist for most people and I need to learn to be happy without it somehow.I don't think your capacity to manage stress will lessen if you take a job with less responsibility. It's probably true that you step up to handle the job you have but I wouldn't think the reverse would be true. But I guess you have to balance your income needs with your ability to handle stress. Still, I can't imagine that uncontrollable weeping is doing you much good or helping you be the best you can be for your family.You are not alone in your concerns about your career. I share your angst over the question of am I doing what I should be doing and how did I get here? The media and society is full of descriptions of people who are deliriously happy with their fulfilling and rewarding careers. I wonder why I can't be one of those people who loves to go to work.So I don't have the answer for you. If I had an answer, I'd apply it to myself. I long for more from my job but I don't want to give up what I have and I don't know where else I could work that would be better. It sounds like fate may take a hand for you with your funding situation. I hope whatever happens and whatever you decide will be for the best and lead to more satisfaction and happiness for you.Best wishes,Bruce Hello I'm mulling over my career. Not in the best frame of mind to do that (job is under threat, and I'm applying for new funding with deadline of next Weds!) but a question keeps returning. Is it legitimate to want a lower-stress job, or is that just avoidance? I long for a rather more wholesome working life than the one I have now, which is full of competitiveness (both in a business sense, and amongst coworkers), judgmental attitudes, late working, horrendous god-awful commuting and - yes, most of all - high stress. I would like a job with less stress. Or are all jobs stressful - because they are what we make of them. I have a friend who is more experienced than me, but my junior, who never sought advancement because she didn't want the responsibility. I don't think it was because she lacked confidence. She certainly doesn't regret her choices. Should that be where I should go? I've followed promotions and moved jobs, actually because I thought to avoid doing so would make me feel like a failure, by avoidance. But that's not a very good reason, is it? I've read a pamplet on workplace stress. Stress is a gap between the pressures of responsibility and demands upon you, against (your perceptions of) your capacity to manage them. If I "step down" into a job with fewer pressures, will my perception of my capacity to manage them also reduce... so I'm left in the same boat? At the moment I can't do my job well. I can't concentrate, I keep forgetting things. I leave the office regularly because tears force me out. I'm left weeping (so humiliating) on the train home. This is not all in the mind - this is stopping me from functioning. Thank you. Cathartic. A stream of thoughts written onto this forum actually acts as defusion for me. I will leave them here and go to bed. Have the answer for me ready for the morning, will you please? :0) Night x

[Guest guest]

,

I was moved by your post when I read it this morning and want to say something

to help you, but I don't know what. However, I value sharing whatever I've

learned on my way through life, so I'll give it a somewhat rambling go.

One of the key causes of stress in the workplace is lack of control. The less

control we have over how we do the tasks assigned to us and when, the worse

we'll feel.

I was lucky in my case. Before I retired a couple of years ago, I worked as a

programmer and database administrator in a government department. As long I

completed the jobs assigned to me, I was allowed to be pretty flexible in how

and when I did them, as long I completed them on time. I still experienced

stress at times. Meetings were a bugger, thanks to my social anxiety, as were

the nights and weekends when I had to help fix urgent problems with our servers

and networks. For the most part though, I had a lot of control over how I did my

job, and I valued creating the programs and databases that made my colleagues'

work a little easier.

While a certain amount of stress and anxiety is useful because it fires us up

and gets us moving and improves our performance (an actor about to go on stage

for example, or someone about to give a speech at Toastmasters), too much of it

can do us physical and emotional harm.

When I was very stressed at work, my body was tight, I couldn't string two

thoughts together. I couldn't do my job, and the rest of my life suffered as a

result. Programming requires a clear head and an ability to think in a very

logical, analytical way, and excessive stress was a sure-fire way to stop me

doing that. Result, missed deadlines, a feeling that I was a failure, and even

more stress!

Changing our lives to reduce this kind of damaging stress is not avoidance. On

the contrary, I think it's the best thing we can do for ourselves. It makes us

feel better, it loosens our body, it clears our head, it allows us to think more

clearly, and it frees us to do the things we want to do and live a better life.

While googling workplace stress in an effort to come up with something useful to

say to you, I read some research that says that women tend to handle stress

better than men. Apparently, women cope better because they are able to talk

about their feelings with their friends. We men don't do this. We bottle it up,

we go the pub with our mates and get drunk while talking about sport or cars or

the great new show on TV or the hot redhead on the other side of the bar.

Anything but how we really feel. It works for a while but, over the long haul,

it leaves us stressed and frustrated and sometimes angry.

Are you close enough to your friend to risk some emotional intimacy and talk to

her about what's happening in your life? Easier said than done, I know, given

how reluctant we men are about revealing ourselves, but it might be worth the

risk.

Re commuting, one of the ways I found to reduce the stress I experienced while

going to work was to catch an earlier, less crowded train a couple of hours

before I was due to start work. Once in the city (Melbourne), I would go a cafe

and sit quietly with a cup of coffee and read a paper, surf the internet, and do

some writing (I keep a journal and write fiction as a hobby). For me, this was a

great way to start the day. It gave me time to relax and be by myself for a

while. Plus, I avoided the morning crush on my way to work. Not the going home

part, unfortunately!

Another way I dealt with stress was to duck out of the office a couple of times

during the day to buy a coffee and sit down for a few minutes. This might not be

practical in your case, but if you can do it, I recommend it.

Cheers,

Stan

>

> Hello

>

> I'm mulling over my career. Not in the best frame of mind to do that (job is

under threat, and I'm applying for new funding with deadline of next Weds!) but

a question keeps returning. Is it legitimate to want a lower-stress job, or is

that just avoidance?

>

> I long for a rather more wholesome working life than the one I have now, which

is full of competitiveness (both in a business sense, and amongst coworkers),

judgmental attitudes, late working, horrendous god-awful commuting and - yes,

most of all - high stress.

>

> I would like a job with less stress. Or are all jobs stressful - because they

are what we make of them. I have a friend who is more experienced than me, but

my junior, who never sought advancement because she didn't want the

responsibility. I don't think it was because she lacked confidence. She

certainly doesn't regret her choices. Should that be where I should go? I've

followed promotions and moved jobs, actually because I thought to avoid doing so

would make me feel like a failure, by avoidance. But that's not a very good

reason, is it?

>

> I've read a pamplet on workplace stress. Stress is a gap between the

pressures of responsibility and demands upon you, against (your perceptions of)

your capacity to manage them. If I " step down " into a job with fewer pressures,

will my perception of my capacity to manage them also reduce... so I'm left in

the same boat?

>

> At the moment I can't do my job well. I can't concentrate, I keep forgetting

things. I leave the office regularly because tears force me out. I'm left

weeping (so humiliating) on the train home. This is not all in the mind - this

is stopping me from functioning.

>

> Thank you. Cathartic. A stream of thoughts written onto this forum actually

acts as defusion for me. I will leave them here and go to bed. Have the answer

for me ready for the morning, will you please? :0)

>

> Night x

>

[Guest guest]

I don't know if people have read my posts over the last few months as

they can be long and detailed and most of us here are very tired and

exhausted, so I apologise for this long one.

Acceptance is weird concept. Pehaps I can't accept that my career is no

good for anymore and that I need a different job. A librarian would have

done me better.

But I have been big on accpeptance and willngness and going back to work

which has been killing me. But I always say that the only way out is

through, so let's go back and do it again, no matter what. But before my

rescent sickness I was drinking bear every other night to get to get to

sleep and during the day I confused and worn out by poor sleep - I kept

losing things in a jiffy, one minute it is in my hand, the next it has

gone, nowhere to be found.

I have had four accidents at work recently and two have put me off

sick, these accidents are caused by stress and rushing about . Today I

was meant to go back to work as my self certificate has run out but I

could not face it. I have been doing my ultimate mindfulness this week

by really concentrasting on my breath and the surrounding noises. Every

now and again I reach a state of hush and everything is so peaceful. I

didn't sleep last night but the peace that occured for small moments at

a time was so blissful. I have not felt so lovely for years and years.

I can't do this when I am back at work because there is no chance of

calming my mind down enough. I just want another week of this peace and

then maybe I can obtain enough of this to get me going into full

mindfulness even when I am back at work.

I'm going to ring up my doctor today but as I told them yesterday when I

rang that I live I live a different catchment area the secretary would

not give me an appointment. Now I am off work with no doctor and I am

worrying because if my new doctor refuses to sign me off for sick for

another week then I am in it. I am going to plead for an appointment

with my old surgery today and say that I am clinically depressed and in

a bad way, or maybe the secreatary will lbe someone else this time. I

just need more time off work to recover. And want to talk to a doctor

that knows me and knows that Iam not a shirker or someone looking for a

week off.

I have been at the point of thinking I need to change jobs myself

recently but my mortgage is big, so I can't afford to.(most higher

stressed jobs tend to pay more ) So I will go back there and get back

into acceptance and carryon until I recover.

Kv

> >

> > Hello

> >

> > I'm mulling over my career. Not in the best frame of mind to do that

(job is under threat, and I'm applying for new funding with deadline of

next Weds!) but a question keeps returning. Is it legitimate to want a

lower-stress job, or is that just avoidance?

> >

> > I long for a rather more wholesome working life than the one I have

now, which is full of competitiveness (both in a business sense, and

amongst coworkers), judgmental attitudes, late working, horrendous

god-awful commuting and - yes, most of all - high stress.

> >

> > I would like a job with less stress. Or are all jobs stressful -

because they are what we make of them. I have a friend who is more

experienced than me, but my junior, who never sought advancement because

she didn't want the responsibility. I don't think it was because she

lacked confidence. She certainly doesn't regret her choices. Should that

be where I should go? I've followed promotions and moved jobs, actually

because I thought to avoid doing so would make me feel like a failure,

by avoidance. But that's not a very good reason, is it?

> >

> > I've read a pamplet on workplace stress. Stress is a gap between the

pressures of responsibility and demands upon you, against (your

perceptions of) your capacity to manage them. If I " step down " into a

job with fewer pressures, will my perception of my capacity to manage

them also reduce... so I'm left in the same boat?

> >

> > At the moment I can't do my job well. I can't concentrate, I keep

forgetting things. I leave the office regularly because tears force me

out. I'm left weeping (so humiliating) on the train home. This is not

all in the mind - this is stopping me from functioning.

> >

> > Thank you. Cathartic. A stream of thoughts written onto this forum

actually acts as defusion for me. I will leave them here and go to bed.

Have the answer for me ready for the morning, will you please? :0)

> >

> > Night x

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Crikey, , we're in the same boat. Losing things: it is in my hand one

moment and then gone the next. Sometimes it is something really important and I

run about like a headless chicken in a complete panic. And when I find it I

sometimes lose it again. I have stopped coping at work too and I have been

drinking more, often to just get asleep.

Do you know, I have been feeling such a failure recently too. Something keeps

telling me to go for the supervisors job but I am too scared. But in a way this

have really damaged my self esteem as my inner critic has a field day sneering

at me.

But someting inside of me knows that I will just feel the same again after a

while, that I will get that inner voice saying I should go for the next level of

management, and so on, because I am never good enough, or brave enough, you see.

If I feel a fear, then my inner voice say's do it, otherwise you are a failure,

but now I am finished due to exhaustion and constant effort. But I never felt

good enough, not even at school.

I have some of the highest level of qaulifications and more than most in my

company, but in engineering not management. Although I did management courses

within these courses because they were technician couses, not craft. At college

I got all grade A's, but a B felt like a failure.

My brother wife has a directors job and it is killing her and she spends all

night playing computer games to escape the stress. My brother say's she hates

her job ánd she would love to get out of it. But they have an expensive house

and need to get the kids to get through univerity.

Kv

>

> Hello

>

> I'm mulling over my career. Not in the best frame of mind to do that (job is

under threat, and I'm applying for new funding with deadline of next Weds!) but

a question keeps returning. Is it legitimate to want a lower-stress job, or is

that just avoidance?

>

> I long for a rather more wholesome working life than the one I have now, which

is full of competitiveness (both in a business sense, and amongst coworkers),

judgmental attitudes, late working, horrendous god-awful commuting and - yes,

most of all - high stress.

>

> I would like a job with less stress. Or are all jobs stressful - because they

are what we make of them. I have a friend who is more experienced than me, but

my junior, who never sought advancement because she didn't want the

responsibility. I don't think it was because she lacked confidence. She

certainly doesn't regret her choices. Should that be where I should go? I've

followed promotions and moved jobs, actually because I thought to avoid doing so

would make me feel like a failure, by avoidance. But that's not a very good

reason, is it?

>

> I've read a pamplet on workplace stress. Stress is a gap between the

pressures of responsibility and demands upon you, against (your perceptions of)

your capacity to manage them. If I " step down " into a job with fewer pressures,

will my perception of my capacity to manage them also reduce... so I'm left in

the same boat?

>

> At the moment I can't do my job well. I can't concentrate, I keep forgetting

things. I leave the office regularly because tears force me out. I'm left

weeping (so humiliating) on the train home. This is not all in the mind - this

is stopping me from functioning.

>

> Thank you. Cathartic. A stream of thoughts written onto this forum actually

acts as defusion for me. I will leave them here and go to bed. Have the answer

for me ready for the morning, will you please? :0)

>

> Night x

>

[Guest guest]

hi, there is something here, which we are all seemingly struggling with. After a

nice little holiday break, we are returning to our old jobs and workplaces, and

realize that none of it or some of it doesn't give us very much meaning in terms

of what we do for a living. Afterall, how many of us can say we are excited to

get up and go to work each and every day. But should it? Should our work be

compelling for us or is it just another one of those drudgery.

I dunno either. My sense is that in a perfect world, our work provides one of

our innate values, and thus helps us find meaning and motivation in a world that

does not otherwise. But me included, we are often trapped or stuck in

occupations because we have to, pay the bills, send our kids to school, put

bread on the table, etc etc.

hmmm, firstly i am thinking that how i feel is how i feel, if i feel this way

about my work... then validate it and allow it to be... secondly... if this is

the state of my work mind... then i need to come up w a plan to change it ...

that may involve taking on some risk, like doing something new, putting myself

at risk, stepping out and taking some different action.. hopefully with the

intent that things will change down the road. No amount of thinking about

something will ever bring about change, i gotta start moving...

Tom

> >

> > Hello

> >

> > I'm mulling over my career. Not in the best frame of mind to do that (job

is under threat, and I'm applying for new funding with deadline of next Weds!)

but a question keeps returning. Is it legitimate to want a lower-stress job,

or is that just avoidance?

> >

> > I long for a rather more wholesome working life than the one I have now,

which is full of competitiveness (both in a business sense, and amongst

coworkers), judgmental attitudes, late working, horrendous god-awful commuting

and - yes, most of all - high stress.

> >

> > I would like a job with less stress. Or are all jobs stressful - because

they are what we make of them. I have a friend who is more experienced than me,

but my junior, who never sought advancement because she didn't want the

responsibility. I don't think it was because she lacked confidence. She

certainly doesn't regret her choices. Should that be where I should go? I've

followed promotions and moved jobs, actually because I thought to avoid doing so

would make me feel like a failure, by avoidance. But that's not a very good

reason, is it?

> >

> > I've read a pamplet on workplace stress. Stress is a gap between the

pressures of responsibility and demands upon you, against (your perceptions of)

your capacity to manage them. If I " step down " into a job with fewer pressures,

will my perception of my capacity to manage them also reduce... so I'm left in

the same boat?

> >

> > At the moment I can't do my job well. I can't concentrate, I keep

forgetting things. I leave the office regularly because tears force me out.

I'm left weeping (so humiliating) on the train home. This is not all in the

mind - this is stopping me from functioning.

> >

> > Thank you. Cathartic. A stream of thoughts written onto this forum

actually acts as defusion for me. I will leave them here and go to bed. Have

the answer for me ready for the morning, will you please? :0)

> >

> > Night x

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I can relate to this. My job was extremely stressful all of last year. I think it will be better this year as we have more staff. But finding meaning in my work is a different matter. The book 'Your Life On Purpose' has helped me in some ways. I kept thinking in order for my work to be meaningful I have to achieve something big and have an impact on people's lives. I couldn't see that there actually is meaning in my job. I looked at my values and tried to find it in my work. Then somehow I had an 'aha' moment when I realized that I do have an impact on people. I'm in a support role and help people just by solving their specific problem. They can move on with their task and I feel good about having helped them. I guess what I'm saying is that I was looking for some huge big meaningful purpose in my job when really, it was there all along, just on a much smaller scale. Stress might still be there but easier to deal with. Birgit Sent from my iPhone

hi, there is something here, which we are all seemingly struggling with. After a nice little holiday break, we are returning to our old jobs and workplaces, and realize that none of it or some of it doesn't give us very much meaning in terms of what we do for a living. Afterall, how many of us can say we are excited to get up and go to work each and every day. But should it? Should our work be compelling for us or is it just another one of those drudgery.

I dunno either. My sense is that in a perfect world, our work provides one of our innate values, and thus helps us find meaning and motivation in a world that does not otherwise. But me included, we are often trapped or stuck in occupations because we have to, pay the bills, send our kids to school, put bread on the table, etc etc.

hmmm, firstly i am thinking that how i feel is how i feel, if i feel this way about my work... then validate it and allow it to be... secondly... if this is the state of my work mind... then i need to come up w a plan to change it ... that may involve taking on some risk, like doing something new, putting myself at risk, stepping out and taking some different action.. hopefully with the intent that things will change down the road. No amount of thinking about something will ever bring about change, i gotta start moving...

Tom

> >

> > Hello

> >

> > I'm mulling over my career. Not in the best frame of mind to do that (job is under threat, and I'm applying for new funding with deadline of next Weds!) but a question keeps returning. Is it legitimate to want a lower-stress job, or is that just avoidance?

> >

> > I long for a rather more wholesome working life than the one I have now, which is full of competitiveness (both in a business sense, and amongst coworkers), judgmental attitudes, late working, horrendous god-awful commuting and - yes, most of all - high stress.

> >

> > I would like a job with less stress. Or are all jobs stressful - because they are what we make of them. I have a friend who is more experienced than me, but my junior, who never sought advancement because she didn't want the responsibility. I don't think it was because she lacked confidence. She certainly doesn't regret her choices. Should that be where I should go? I've followed promotions and moved jobs, actually because I thought to avoid doing so would make me feel like a failure, by avoidance. But that's not a very good reason, is it?

> >

> > I've read a pamplet on workplace stress. Stress is a gap between the pressures of responsibility and demands upon you, against (your perceptions of) your capacity to manage them. If I "step down" into a job with fewer pressures, will my perception of my capacity to manage them also reduce... so I'm left in the same boat?

> >

> > At the moment I can't do my job well. I can't concentrate, I keep forgetting things. I leave the office regularly because tears force me out. I'm left weeping (so humiliating) on the train home. This is not all in the mind - this is stopping me from functioning.

> >

> > Thank you. Cathartic. A stream of thoughts written onto this forum actually acts as defusion for me. I will leave them here and go to bed. Have the answer for me ready for the morning, will you please? :0)

> >

> > Night x

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I suppose this also goes to what we have a right to expect from our lives. Do we have the right to expect to get some good feeling from our jobs? Or at least not be beaten down by them? Are we wrong to hope for our jobs to be better?I've been struggling with not expecting happiness. I've been doing better with this but I still struggle with accepting things as they are and my feelings as they are. I also continue to hope that things will get better and/or my feelings will be happier. The thing is, my job is not going to get better. It is what it is. And in reality, my job is not bad. It's me that needs to change. If I truly accepted my job and made the best of it, I would be so much better off than beating myself up over what my job is not. But then I get into a funk that things are never going get better. I like to have hope but does that impede me from starting where I am?BruceHi :I can tell you that not all jobs are stressful. My job is so stress-free that it stresses me out. By that I mean I would like a job with more interaction and more activity. But my colleagues are great and the hours are very flexible. The pay is good and supports my family. I like the work, I just wish there was more of it. The description of your job serves to make me grateful for what I have. But I certainly have not maximized my career potential and I often feel very, very bad about that. I beat myself up and criticize myself for not making more of my work life and living up to my potential. And now I'm old enough and my family situation is such that a radical change of careers is not a good option. An awful lot of my dissatisfaction is my depression talking. If I were not suffering from depression, I'm sure my attitude would be much different. I think it is legitimate to want a job that fits your values. There is always the potential to ramp up your effort for higher performance at the expense of the rest of your life. I have been very involved in my daughter's life and my job has allowed that. I go to all her school functions and conferences and if I had a more demanding job, I wouldn't be able to do that. This isn't something I consciously chose, however. It just happened. Part of me would like a job where it was important for me to be at work all the time. I guess I want the perfect blend and that probably doesn't exist for most people and I need to learn to be happy without it somehow.I don't think your capacity to manage stress will lessen if you take a job with less responsibility. It's probably true that you step up to handle the job you have but I wouldn't think the reverse would be true. But I guess you have to balance your income needs with your ability to handle stress. Still, I can't imagine that uncontrollable weeping is doing you much good or helping you be the best you can be for your family.You are not alone in your concerns about your career. I share your angst over the question of am I doing what I should be doing and how did I get here? The media and society is full of descriptions of people who are deliriously happy with their fulfilling and rewarding careers. I wonder why I can't be one of those people who loves to go to work.So I don't have the answer for you. If I had an answer, I'd apply it to myself. I long for more from my job but I don't want to give up what I have and I don't know where else I could work that would be better. It sounds like fate may take a hand for you with your funding situation. I hope whatever happens and whatever you decide will be for the best and lead to more satisfaction and happiness for you.Best wishes,Bruce Hello I'm mulling over my career. Not in the best frame of mind to do that (job is under threat, and I'm applying for new funding with deadline of next Weds!) but a question keeps returning. Is it legitimate to want a lower-stress job, or is that just avoidance? I long for a rather more wholesome working life than the one I have now, which is full of competitiveness (both in a business sense, and amongst coworkers), judgmental attitudes, late working, horrendous god-awful commuting and - yes, most of all - high stress. I would like a job with less stress. Or are all jobs stressful - because they are what we make of them. I have a friend who is more experienced than me, but my junior, who never sought advancement because she didn't want the responsibility. I don't think it was because she lacked confidence. She certainly doesn't regret her choices. Should that be where I should go? I've followed promotions and moved jobs, actually because I thought to avoid doing so would make me feel like a failure, by avoidance. But that's not a very good reason, is it? I've read a pamplet on workplace stress. Stress is a gap between the pressures of responsibility and demands upon you, against (your perceptions of) your capacity to manage them. If I "step down" into a job with fewer pressures, will my perception of my capacity to manage them also reduce... so I'm left in the same boat? At the moment I can't do my job well. I can't concentrate, I keep forgetting things. I leave the office regularly because tears force me out. I'm left weeping (so humiliating) on the train home. This is not all in the mind - this is stopping me from functioning. Thank you. Cathartic. A stream of thoughts written onto this forum actually acts as defusion for me. I will leave them here and go to bed. Have the answer for me ready for the morning, will you please? :0) Night x

[Guest guest]

Sometimes I think why don't I rent my house out and become an electrician on a

ship. But those Somali pirates?.... Damn it, there is always somethimg putting

me of from making a change.

Kv

> > >

> > > Hello

> > >

> > > I'm mulling over my career. Not in the best frame of mind to do that (job

is under threat, and I'm applying for new funding with deadline of next Weds!)

but a question keeps returning. Is it legitimate to want a lower-stress job,

or is that just avoidance?

> > >

> > > I long for a rather more wholesome working life than the one I have now,

which is full of competitiveness (both in a business sense, and amongst

coworkers), judgmental attitudes, late working, horrendous god-awful commuting

and - yes, most of all - high stress.

> > >

> > > I would like a job with less stress. Or are all jobs stressful - because

they are what we make of them. I have a friend who is more experienced than me,

but my junior, who never sought advancement because she didn't want the

responsibility. I don't think it was because she lacked confidence. She

certainly doesn't regret her choices. Should that be where I should go? I've

followed promotions and moved jobs, actually because I thought to avoid doing so

would make me feel like a failure, by avoidance. But that's not a very good

reason, is it?

> > >

> > > I've read a pamplet on workplace stress. Stress is a gap between the

pressures of responsibility and demands upon you, against (your perceptions of)

your capacity to manage them. If I " step down " into a job with fewer pressures,

will my perception of my capacity to manage them also reduce... so I'm left in

the same boat?

> > >

> > > At the moment I can't do my job well. I can't concentrate, I keep

forgetting things. I leave the office regularly because tears force me out.

I'm left weeping (so humiliating) on the train home. This is not all in the

mind - this is stopping me from functioning.

> > >

> > > Thank you. Cathartic. A stream of thoughts written onto this forum

actually acts as defusion for me. I will leave them here and go to bed. Have

the answer for me ready for the morning, will you please? :0)

> > >

> > > Night x

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

My supervisor wants me to take time off to get better but he also say's that the

agency electrical engineers he is using are not very good so he hopes I will be

back soon.

Over the last months I have worked really hard to come to grips with the new

technology in what I find to be a very difficult job. But it seemed that I also

became very ill because of all this effort and yet I am so close to fully

mastering it. I'm looking forward to going back to work soon to fully come to

grips with things. When I have really mastered this it will get a lot easier.

Due to my atypical depression I don't like too much phyisical work so that part

remains hard (my body feels stiff with tension and so I don't like too much

physical effort), but one day I will overcome this.

I know I am a perfectionist, but being very good at your job means continuing

employment and income. And this is something I value. It also helps to produces

a feeling of safetey and effectiveness.

Thanks for listening.

Kv

> > >

> > > Hello

> > >

> > > I'm mulling over my career. Not in the best frame of mind to do that (job

is under threat, and I'm applying for new funding with deadline of next Weds!)

but a question keeps returning. Is it legitimate to want a lower-stress job,

or is that just avoidance?

> > >

> > > I long for a rather more wholesome working life than the one I have now,

which is full of competitiveness (both in a business sense, and amongst

coworkers), judgmental attitudes, late working, horrendous god-awful commuting

and - yes, most of all - high stress.

> > >

> > > I would like a job with less stress. Or are all jobs stressful - because

they are what we make of them. I have a friend who is more experienced than me,

but my junior, who never sought advancement because she didn't want the

responsibility. I don't think it was because she lacked confidence. She

certainly doesn't regret her choices. Should that be where I should go? I've

followed promotions and moved jobs, actually because I thought to avoid doing so

would make me feel like a failure, by avoidance. But that's not a very good

reason, is it?

> > >

> > > I've read a pamplet on workplace stress. Stress is a gap between the

pressures of responsibility and demands upon you, against (your perceptions of)

your capacity to manage them. If I " step down " into a job with fewer pressures,

will my perception of my capacity to manage them also reduce... so I'm left in

the same boat?

> > >

> > > At the moment I can't do my job well. I can't concentrate, I keep

forgetting things. I leave the office regularly because tears force me out.

I'm left weeping (so humiliating) on the train home. This is not all in the

mind - this is stopping me from functioning.

> > >

> > > Thank you. Cathartic. A stream of thoughts written onto this forum

actually acts as defusion for me. I will leave them here and go to bed. Have

the answer for me ready for the morning, will you please? :0)

> > >

> > > Night x

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

I hear my own voice in every post in this thread.

For myself, though, I've come to the conclusion that questions like

" Do we have a right to expect happiness in our work? " etc., are

misleading. They seem plausible, but they set us up in ways that

aren't helpful.

Such questions tend to boil down to a single assumption: that work

is a game to be won, and that winning involves playing by " the

rules. " These rules are supposedly " universal " - literally " out

there in the universe " as unwritten but all-governing laws.

What's really going on, I think, is that work is uncertain; and

since minds hate uncertainty, they make up rules. Everybody's got a

mind, so everybody's got rules.

We debate these rules with each other & ourselves, and never come to

an answer. The rules conflict with each other. Worse, they never

actually help us DO anything; they just hem us in. We start to spend

our time drawing imaginary lines we can't cross.

I also think that asking a question like " Do I have the right? " is

very often an attempt to ward off disappointment. We are essentially

asking whether hope is an acceptable or unacceptable risk. And since

the question is not resolvable in the mind, we freeze up. We keep

trying to censor ourselves. And the pain bleeds out between the

lines anyway.

On the other hand ... if there ARE no rules ... then it's up to us.

We get to choose. We get to be responsible, if we are willing.

Practical advice exists. Universal rules do not. One of my issues

is that too often I misread this or that piece of practical advice

as constituting a rule. The rule is actually in my head! So I'm

working on that.

We can hope & yearn for something without the universe being obliged

to give it to us. We can work toward our hopes anyway. We'll feel

the pain of being mortal, not just at work but in every aspect of

our lives. That seems to be part of the deal.

- Randy

[Guest guest]

Do you know, I have never been able to get my head around some of the

Buddhists ideas like suffering is optional. When I am in pain, I hate

it, I can't see it being any other way. I can learn how to accept it,

but it is still not my desired state. Open Focus believes that you can

dissolve pain away by concentrating on it and accepting it, and that I

can get my head around, but idea of putting up with pain for for

eternity just gives me the willies.

Earning a living is the most important thing, but being happy in your

work must come a close second, I would hope. I can remember being happy

at work once which was very nice, and I am sure the artisans of the past

centuries were very happy too, when life was much simpler.

Kv

>

> Hi all,

>

> I hear my own voice in every post in this thread.

>

> For myself, though, I've come to the conclusion that questions like

> " Do we have a right to expect happiness in our work? " etc., are

> misleading. They seem plausible, but they set us up in ways that

> aren't helpful.

>

> Such questions tend to boil down to a single assumption: that work

> is a game to be won, and that winning involves playing by " the

> rules. " These rules are supposedly " universal " - literally " out

> there in the universe " as unwritten but all-governing laws.

>

> What's really going on, I think, is that work is uncertain; and

> since minds hate uncertainty, they make up rules. Everybody's got a

> mind, so everybody's got rules.

>

> We debate these rules with each other & ourselves, and never come to

> an answer. The rules conflict with each other. Worse, they never

> actually help us DO anything; they just hem us in. We start to spend

> our time drawing imaginary lines we can't cross.

>

> I also think that asking a question like " Do I have the right? " is

> very often an attempt to ward off disappointment. We are essentially

> asking whether hope is an acceptable or unacceptable risk. And since

> the question is not resolvable in the mind, we freeze up. We keep

> trying to censor ourselves. And the pain bleeds out between the

> lines anyway.

>

> On the other hand ... if there ARE no rules ... then it's up to us.

> We get to choose. We get to be responsible, if we are willing.

>

> Practical advice exists. Universal rules do not. One of my issues

> is that too often I misread this or that piece of practical advice

> as constituting a rule. The rule is actually in my head! So I'm

> working on that.

>

> We can hope & yearn for something without the universe being obliged

> to give it to us. We can work toward our hopes anyway. We'll feel

> the pain of being mortal, not just at work but in every aspect of

> our lives. That seems to be part of the deal.

>

> - Randy

>

[Guest guest]

Kaivey, Oh my god! Acceptance is not possible if you put out the emotional energy to hate what you claim to accept. Acceptance is not about being resigned, is not about gritting your teeth, white-knuckling it, bearing it. It is not about liking your state or the situation you are in! What is it about? It comes closer to noticing what is -- what IS -- and saying OK!!! It's alright. It's all right. It is what it is.

And where are you coming from when you say earning a living is the most important thing? Right there, I just don't get that. The artisans of the past were probably no happier than you are. Earning a living is necessary. But you can actually hate what you are doing for a living and still love life. It's a myth that you must love what you do for a living. Some of us (many of us) don't have that good fortune. We do what we must to make a living. Hopefully, that will fulfill us in other ways as well. But if it doesn't, well,well -- we come home from work and find other ways to fulfill ourselves. We love our family, our pets, our volunteer work. Whatever. Work is not the end-all, be-all to ones happiness. It can be, sometimes IS, just a paycheck. What is wrong with that? Nothing! Unless you make it so.

Off my soapbox ...

Helena

From: "Kaivey" <akaivey>To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 11:31:20 AMSubject: Re: Stress at work

Do you know, I have never been able to get my head around some of theBuddhists ideas like suffering is optional. When I am in pain, I hateit, I can't see it being any other way. I can learn how to accept it,but it is still not my desired state. Open Focus believes that you candissolve pain away by concentrating on it and accepting it, and that Ican get my head around, but idea of putting up with pain for foreternity just gives me the willies.Earning a living is the most important thing, but being happy in yourwork must come a close second, I would hope. I can remember being happyat work once which was very nice, and I am sure the artisans of the pastcenturies were very happy too, when life was much simpler.Kv>> Hi all,>> I hear my own voice in every post in this thread.>> For myself, though, I've come to the conclusion that questions like> "Do we have a right to expect happiness in our work?" etc., are> misleading. They seem plausible, but they set us up in ways that> aren't helpful.>> Such questions tend to boil down to a single assumption: that work> is a game to be won, and that winning involves playing by "the> rules." These rules are supposedly "universal" - literally "out> there in the universe" as unwritten but all-governing laws.>> What's really going on, I think, is that work is uncertain; and> since minds hate uncertainty, they make up rules. Everybody's got a> mind, so everybody's got rules.>> We debate these rules with each other & ourselves, and never come to> an answer. The rules conflict with each other. Worse, they never> actually help us DO anything; they just hem us in. We start to spend> our time drawing imaginary lines we can't cross.>> I also think that asking a question like "Do I have the right?" is> very often an attempt to ward off disappointment. We are essentially> asking whether hope is an acceptable or unacceptable risk. And since> the question is not resolvable in the mind, we freeze up. We keep> trying to censor ourselves. And the pain bleeds out between the> lines anyway.>> On the other hand ... if there ARE no rules ... then it's up to us.> We get to choose. We get to be responsible, if we are willing.>> Practical advice exists. Universal rules do not. One of my issues> is that too often I misread this or that piece of practical advice> as constituting a rule. The rule is actually in my head! So I'm> working on that.>> We can hope & yearn for something without the universe being obliged> to give it to us. We can work toward our hopes anyway. We'll feel> the pain of being mortal, not just at work but in every aspect of> our lives. That seems to be part of the deal.>> - Randy>

[Guest guest]

Well, what I mean is if you don't earn a living you will die.

Kv

> >

> > Hi all,

> >

> > I hear my own voice in every post in this thread.

> >

> > For myself, though, I've come to the conclusion that questions like

> > " Do we have a right to expect happiness in our work? " etc., are

> > misleading. They seem plausible, but they set us up in ways that

> > aren't helpful.

> >

> > Such questions tend to boil down to a single assumption: that work

> > is a game to be won, and that winning involves playing by " the

> > rules. " These rules are supposedly " universal " - literally " out

> > there in the universe " as unwritten but all-governing laws.

> >

> > What's really going on, I think, is that work is uncertain; and

> > since minds hate uncertainty, they make up rules. Everybody's got a

> > mind, so everybody's got rules.

> >

> > We debate these rules with each other & ourselves, and never come to

> > an answer. The rules conflict with each other. Worse, they never

> > actually help us DO anything; they just hem us in. We start to spend

> > our time drawing imaginary lines we can't cross.

> >

> > I also think that asking a question like " Do I have the right? " is

> > very often an attempt to ward off disappointment. We are essentially

> > asking whether hope is an acceptable or unacceptable risk. And since

> > the question is not resolvable in the mind, we freeze up. We keep

> > trying to censor ourselves. And the pain bleeds out between the

> > lines anyway.

> >

> > On the other hand ... if there ARE no rules ... then it's up to us.

> > We get to choose. We get to be responsible, if we are willing.

> >

> > Practical advice exists. Universal rules do not. One of my issues

> > is that too often I misread this or that piece of practical advice

> > as constituting a rule. The rule is actually in my head! So I'm

> > working on that.

> >

> > We can hope & yearn for something without the universe being obliged

> > to give it to us. We can work toward our hopes anyway. We'll feel

> > the pain of being mortal, not just at work but in every aspect of

> > our lives. That seems to be part of the deal.

> >

> > - Randy

> >

>

[Guest guest]

If you don't drink water, you will die. So drink water. So make a living. You don't have to like the vessel from which you are drinking.

From: "Kaivey" <akaivey>To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 11:53:39 AMSubject: Re: Stress at work

Well, what I mean is if you don't earn a living you will die. Kv > > > > Hi all, > > > > I hear my own voice in every post in this thread. > > > > For myself, though, I've come to the conclusion that questions like > > "Do we have a right to expect happiness in our work?" etc., are > > misleading. They seem plausible, but they set us up in ways that > > aren't helpful. > > > > Such questions tend to boil down to a single assumption: that work > > is a game to be won, and that winning involves playing by "the > > rules." These rules are supposedly "universal" - literally "out > > there in the universe" as unwritten but all-governing laws. > > > > What's really going on, I think, is that work is uncertain; and > > since minds hate uncertainty, they make up rules. Everybody's got a > > mind, so everybody's got rules. > > > > We debate these rules with each other & ourselves, and never come to > > an answer. The rules conflict with each other. Worse, they never > > actually help us DO anything; they just hem us in. We start to spend > > our time drawing imaginary lines we can't cross. > > > > I also think that asking a question like "Do I have the right?" is > > very often an attempt to ward off disappointment. We are essentially > > asking whether hope is an acceptable or unacceptable risk. And since > > the question is not resolvable in the mind, we freeze up. We keep > > trying to censor ourselves. And the pain bleeds out between the > > lines anyway. > > > > On the other hand ... if there ARE no rules ... then it's up to us. > > We get to choose. We get to be responsible, if we are willing. > > > > Practical advice exists. Universal rules do not. One of my issues > > is that too often I misread this or that piece of practical advice > > as constituting a rule. The rule is actually in my head! So I'm > > working on that. > > > > We can hope & yearn for something without the universe being obliged > > to give it to us. We can work toward our hopes anyway. We'll feel > > the pain of being mortal, not just at work but in every aspect of > > our lives. That seems to be part of the deal. > > > > - Randy > >>

[Guest guest]

I'm not saying you must love what you are doing, I just say it is an important

part of life to be happy at work. It is not necessary, but it is a good thing to

be happy when working. I used to do lots of craft once, making things, I was at

my happiest then.

Our bodies reward us with happiness when we are doing the right thing, and that

is how we get the signal to carry on with it. This one of the theories of

evolutionary psychology.

Kv

> >

> > Hi all,

> >

> > I hear my own voice in every post in this thread.

> >

> > For myself, though, I've come to the conclusion that questions like

> > " Do we have a right to expect happiness in our work? " etc., are

> > misleading. They seem plausible, but they set us up in ways that

> > aren't helpful.

> >

> > Such questions tend to boil down to a single assumption: that work

> > is a game to be won, and that winning involves playing by " the

> > rules. " These rules are supposedly " universal " - literally " out

> > there in the universe " as unwritten but all-governing laws.

> >

> > What's really going on, I think, is that work is uncertain; and

> > since minds hate uncertainty, they make up rules. Everybody's got a

> > mind, so everybody's got rules.

> >

> > We debate these rules with each other & ourselves, and never come to

> > an answer. The rules conflict with each other. Worse, they never

> > actually help us DO anything; they just hem us in. We start to spend

> > our time drawing imaginary lines we can't cross.

> >

> > I also think that asking a question like " Do I have the right? " is

> > very often an attempt to ward off disappointment. We are essentially

> > asking whether hope is an acceptable or unacceptable risk. And since

> > the question is not resolvable in the mind, we freeze up. We keep

> > trying to censor ourselves. And the pain bleeds out between the

> > lines anyway.

> >

> > On the other hand ... if there ARE no rules ... then it's up to us.

> > We get to choose. We get to be responsible, if we are willing.

> >

> > Practical advice exists. Universal rules do not. One of my issues

> > is that too often I misread this or that piece of practical advice

> > as constituting a rule. The rule is actually in my head! So I'm

> > working on that.

> >

> > We can hope & yearn for something without the universe being obliged

> > to give it to us. We can work toward our hopes anyway. We'll feel

> > the pain of being mortal, not just at work but in every aspect of

> > our lives. That seems to be part of the deal.

> >

> > - Randy

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I agree 100%. But if you cannot be happy at work, you can still be happy - that's my point in all this. On the other hand, if work is tearing you apart, you should seek another form of employment, is possible. I hear you, Kaivey, that your work is very stressful for you. I vote for your going to work on a boat as an electrician (sans pirates)!

H

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 12:14:17 PMSubject: Re: Stress at work

I'm not saying you must love what you are doing, I just say it is an important part of life to be happy at work. It is not necessary, but it is a good thing to be happy when working. I used to do lots of craft once, making things, I was at my happiest then. Our bodies reward us with happiness when we are doing the right thing, and that is how we get the signal to carry on with it. This one of the theories of evolutionary psychology. Kv > > > > Hi all, > > > > I hear my own voice in every post in this thread. > > > > For myself, though, I've come to the conclusion that questions like > > "Do we have a right to expect happiness in our work?" etc., are > > misleading. They seem plausible, but they set us up in ways that > > aren't helpful. > > > > Such questions tend to boil down to a single assumption: that work > > is a game to be won, and that winning involves playing by "the > > rules." These rules are supposedly "universal" - literally "out > > there in the universe" as unwritten but all-governing laws. > > > > What's really going on, I think, is that work is uncertain; and > > since minds hate uncertainty, they make up rules. Everybody's got a > > mind, so everybody's got rules. > > > > We debate these rules with each other & ourselves, and never come to > > an answer. The rules conflict with each other. Worse, they never > > actually help us DO anything; they just hem us in. We start to spend > > our time drawing imaginary lines we can't cross. > > > > I also think that asking a question like "Do I have the right?" is > > very often an attempt to ward off disappointment. We are essentially > > asking whether hope is an acceptable or unacceptable risk. And since > > the question is not resolvable in the mind, we freeze up. We keep > > trying to censor ourselves. And the pain bleeds out between the > > lines anyway. > > > > On the other hand ... if there ARE no rules ... then it's up to us. > > We get to choose. We get to be responsible, if we are willing. > > > > Practical advice exists. Universal rules do not. One of my issues > > is that too often I misread this or that piece of practical advice > > as constituting a rule. The rule is actually in my head! So I'm > > working on that. > > > > We can hope & yearn for something without the universe being obliged > > to give it to us. We can work toward our hopes anyway. We'll feel > > the pain of being mortal, not just at work but in every aspect of > > our lives. That seems to be part of the deal. > > > > - Randy > >>

[Guest guest]

This is another way of putting it: although it is not necessary to be happy at

work, most people would consider this to be very important the them.

I think that this stoism is really a cover for people's pessimism where they

believe that they can never be happy.

Kv

> > >

> > > Hi all,

> > >

> > > I hear my own voice in every post in this thread.

> > >

> > > For myself, though, I've come to the conclusion that questions like

> > > " Do we have a right to expect happiness in our work? " etc., are

> > > misleading. They seem plausible, but they set us up in ways that

> > > aren't helpful.

> > >

> > > Such questions tend to boil down to a single assumption: that work

> > > is a game to be won, and that winning involves playing by " the

> > > rules. " These rules are supposedly " universal " - literally " out

> > > there in the universe " as unwritten but all-governing laws.

> > >

> > > What's really going on, I think, is that work is uncertain; and

> > > since minds hate uncertainty, they make up rules. Everybody's got a

> > > mind, so everybody's got rules.

> > >

> > > We debate these rules with each other & ourselves, and never come to

> > > an answer. The rules conflict with each other. Worse, they never

> > > actually help us DO anything; they just hem us in. We start to spend

> > > our time drawing imaginary lines we can't cross.

> > >

> > > I also think that asking a question like " Do I have the right? " is

> > > very often an attempt to ward off disappointment. We are essentially

> > > asking whether hope is an acceptable or unacceptable risk. And since

> > > the question is not resolvable in the mind, we freeze up. We keep

> > > trying to censor ourselves. And the pain bleeds out between the

> > > lines anyway.

> > >

> > > On the other hand ... if there ARE no rules ... then it's up to us.

> > > We get to choose. We get to be responsible, if we are willing.

> > >

> > > Practical advice exists. Universal rules do not. One of my issues

> > > is that too often I misread this or that piece of practical advice

> > > as constituting a rule. The rule is actually in my head! So I'm

> > > working on that.

> > >

> > > We can hope & yearn for something without the universe being obliged

> > > to give it to us. We can work toward our hopes anyway. We'll feel

> > > the pain of being mortal, not just at work but in every aspect of

> > > our lives. That seems to be part of the deal.

> > >

> > > - Randy

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

It is important to be happy at work. It is not necessary. To be happy in general.

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 12:31:23 PMSubject: Re: Stress at work

This is another way of putting it: although it is not necessary to be happy at work, most people would consider this to be very important the them.I think that this stoism is really a cover for people's pessimism where they believe that they can never be happy. Kv > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > I hear my own voice in every post in this thread. > > > > > > For myself, though, I've come to the conclusion that questions like > > > "Do we have a right to expect happiness in our work?" etc., are > > > misleading. They seem plausible, but they set us up in ways that > > > aren't helpful. > > > > > > Such questions tend to boil down to a single assumption: that work > > > is a game to be won, and that winning involves playing by "the > > > rules." These rules are supposedly "universal" - literally "out > > > there in the universe" as unwritten but all-governing laws. > > > > > > What's really going on, I think, is that work is uncertain; and > > > since minds hate uncertainty, they make up rules. Everybody's got a > > > mind, so everybody's got rules. > > > > > > We debate these rules with each other & ourselves, and never come to > > > an answer. The rules conflict with each other. Worse, they never > > > actually help us DO anything; they just hem us in. We start to spend > > > our time drawing imaginary lines we can't cross. > > > > > > I also think that asking a question like "Do I have the right?" is > > > very often an attempt to ward off disappointment. We are essentially > > > asking whether hope is an acceptable or unacceptable risk. And since > > > the question is not resolvable in the mind, we freeze up. We keep > > > trying to censor ourselves. And the pain bleeds out between the > > > lines anyway. > > > > > > On the other hand ... if there ARE no rules ... then it's up to us. > > > We get to choose. We get to be responsible, if we are willing. > > > > > > Practical advice exists. Universal rules do not. One of my issues > > > is that too often I misread this or that piece of practical advice > > > as constituting a rule. The rule is actually in my head! So I'm > > > working on that. > > > > > > We can hope & yearn for something without the universe being obliged > > > to give it to us. We can work toward our hopes anyway. We'll feel > > > the pain of being mortal, not just at work but in every aspect of > > > our lives. That seems to be part of the deal. > > > > > > - Randy > > >> >>

[Guest guest]

Hi all,Lurker popping her head up.  Perhaps the issue is not whether it is possible or important to be " happy " at work, but whether we can find a way for our work to feel meaningful. That is, is there any part of your job which feels connected to your values?  Is there any way to sneak values into your work?

For example, often in my work I get sad and worry that the systems I am part of are part of larger societal systems that I don't believe in. I worry that the things I do are making the world worse, in a broad sense. But I have to work, and I have few options at the moment to completely and radically change the work I am doing. So I try hard to sneak valued behaviors into my work, and to do everything in my power outside of the things I have to do at work to " undo " some of the negative impact my industry has on the world.  And I just have to have faith that that is enough.  So I've left the issue of being happy completely aside, and I'm focusing on whether what I am doing matters and how it matters. 

Does that resonate with anyone?-Hibbie

 

It is important to be happy at work.  It is not necessary. To be happy in general.

To: " ACT for the Public " <ACT_for_the_Public >

Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 12:31:23 PMSubject: Re: Stress at work

 

This is another way of putting it: although it is not necessary to be happy at work, most people would consider this to be very important the them.I think that this stoism is really a cover for people's pessimism where they believe that they can never be happy.

Kv > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > I hear my own voice in every post in this thread. > > > > > > For myself, though, I've come to the conclusion that questions like

> > > " Do we have a right to expect happiness in our work? " etc., are > > > misleading. They seem plausible, but they set us up in ways that > > > aren't helpful. > > >

> > > Such questions tend to boil down to a single assumption: that work > > > is a game to be won, and that winning involves playing by " the > > > rules. " These rules are supposedly " universal " - literally " out

> > > there in the universe " as unwritten but all-governing laws. > > > > > > What's really going on, I think, is that work is uncertain; and > > > since minds hate uncertainty, they make up rules. Everybody's got a

> > > mind, so everybody's got rules. > > > > > > We debate these rules with each other & ourselves, and never come to > > > an answer. The rules conflict with each other. Worse, they never

> > > actually help us DO anything; they just hem us in. We start to spend > > > our time drawing imaginary lines we can't cross. > > > > > > I also think that asking a question like " Do I have the right? " is

> > > very often an attempt to ward off disappointment. We are essentially > > > asking whether hope is an acceptable or unacceptable risk. And since > > > the question is not resolvable in the mind, we freeze up. We keep

> > > trying to censor ourselves. And the pain bleeds out between the > > > lines anyway. > > > > > > On the other hand ... if there ARE no rules ... then it's up to us.

> > > We get to choose. We get to be responsible, if we are willing. > > > > > > Practical advice exists. Universal rules do not. One of my issues > > > is that too often I misread this or that piece of practical advice

> > > as constituting a rule. The rule is actually in my head! So I'm > > > working on that. > > > > > > We can hope & yearn for something without the universe being obliged

> > > to give it to us. We can work toward our hopes anyway. We'll feel > > > the pain of being mortal, not just at work but in every aspect of > > > our lives. That seems to be part of the deal.

> > > > > > - Randy > > >> >>

-- Hibberd, M. A.University of Missouri-Saint LouisCommunity Psychological ServicesOne University BoulevardSt. Louis, MO 63121Saint Louis, MO

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I can relate to concern about values not matching where I'm working and

definitely seeing that there is almost always something I can connect with. And

that just showing up and remaining open to this part is huge for me. But what

do you mean by sneaking values in? And the stuff after work also sounds nice

but I don't know..sounds like a lot of energy..but maybe it's not feeling like

a struggle for you and this is a freeing balance. Interesting thread.

> > > > >

> > > > > Hi all,

> > > > >

> > > > > I hear my own voice in every post in this thread.

> > > > >

> > > > > For myself, though, I've come to the conclusion that questions like

> > > > > " Do we have a right to expect happiness in our work? " etc., are

> > > > > misleading. They seem plausible, but they set us up in ways that

> > > > > aren't helpful.

> > > > >

> > > > > Such questions tend to boil down to a single assumption: that work

> > > > > is a game to be won, and that winning involves playing by " the

> > > > > rules. " These rules are supposedly " universal " - literally " out

> > > > > there in the universe " as unwritten but all-governing laws.

> > > > >

> > > > > What's really going on, I think, is that work is uncertain; and

> > > > > since minds hate uncertainty, they make up rules. Everybody's got a

> > > > > mind, so everybody's got rules.

> > > > >

> > > > > We debate these rules with each other & ourselves, and never come to

> > > > > an answer. The rules conflict with each other. Worse, they never

> > > > > actually help us DO anything; they just hem us in. We start to spend

> > > > > our time drawing imaginary lines we can't cross.

> > > > >

> > > > > I also think that asking a question like " Do I have the right? " is

> > > > > very often an attempt to ward off disappointment. We are essentially

> > > > > asking whether hope is an acceptable or unacceptable risk. And since

> > > > > the question is not resolvable in the mind, we freeze up. We keep

> > > > > trying to censor ourselves. And the pain bleeds out between the

> > > > > lines anyway.

> > > > >

> > > > > On the other hand ... if there ARE no rules ... then it's up to us.

> > > > > We get to choose. We get to be responsible, if we are willing.

> > > > >

> > > > > Practical advice exists. Universal rules do not. One of my issues

> > > > > is that too often I misread this or that piece of practical advice

> > > > > as constituting a rule. The rule is actually in my head! So I'm

> > > > > working on that.

> > > > >

> > > > > We can hope & yearn for something without the universe being obliged

> > > > > to give it to us. We can work toward our hopes anyway. We'll feel

> > > > > the pain of being mortal, not just at work but in every aspect of

> > > > > our lives. That seems to be part of the deal.

> > > > >

> > > > > - Randy

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

> --

> Hibberd, M. A.

> University of Missouri-Saint Louis

> Community Psychological Services

> One University Boulevard

> St. Louis, MO 63121Saint Louis, MO

>

>

[Guest guest]

Do what is useful? What works, what moves me toward my goals...?D

Well, what I mean is if you don't earn a living you will die.

Kv

> >

> > Hi all,

> >

> > I hear my own voice in every post in this thread.

> >

> > For myself, though, I've come to the conclusion that questions like

> > "Do we have a right to expect happiness in our work?" etc., are

> > misleading. They seem plausible, but they set us up in ways that

> > aren't helpful.

> >

> > Such questions tend to boil down to a single assumption: that work

> > is a game to be won, and that winning involves playing by "the

> > rules." These rules are supposedly "universal" - literally "out

> > there in the universe" as unwritten but all-governing laws.

> >

> > What's really going on, I think, is that work is uncertain; and

> > since minds hate uncertainty, they make up rules. Everybody's got a

> > mind, so everybody's got rules.

> >

> > We debate these rules with each other & ourselves, and never come to

> > an answer. The rules conflict with each other. Worse, they never

> > actually help us DO anything; they just hem us in. We start to spend

> > our time drawing imaginary lines we can't cross.

> >

> > I also think that asking a question like "Do I have the right?" is

> > very often an attempt to ward off disappointment. We are essentially

> > asking whether hope is an acceptable or unacceptable risk. And since

> > the question is not resolvable in the mind, we freeze up. We keep

> > trying to censor ourselves. And the pain bleeds out between the

> > lines anyway.

> >

> > On the other hand ... if there ARE no rules ... then it's up to us.

> > We get to choose. We get to be responsible, if we are willing.

> >

> > Practical advice exists. Universal rules do not. One of my issues

> > is that too often I misread this or that piece of practical advice

> > as constituting a rule. The rule is actually in my head! So I'm

> > working on that.

> >

> > We can hope & yearn for something without the universe being obliged

> > to give it to us. We can work toward our hopes anyway. We'll feel

> > the pain of being mortal, not just at work but in every aspect of

> > our lives. That seems to be part of the deal.

> >

> > - Randy

> >

>

[Guest guest]

That was well-put to my ears, Helena. Work is occasionally something I love, and sometimes something I would rather not get out of bed for. As is play, so to speak. I accept what is while I try to check in with my values or goals as appropriate.D

Kaivey, Oh my god! Acceptance is not possible if you put out the emotional energy to hate what you claim to accept. Acceptance is not about being resigned, is not about gritting your teeth, white-knuckling it, bearing it. It is not about liking your state or the situation you are in! What is it about? It comes closer to noticing what is -- what IS -- and saying OK!!! It's alright. It's all right. It is what it is.

And where are you coming from when you say earning a living is the most important thing? Right there, I just don't get that. The artisans of the past were probably no happier than you are. Earning a living is necessary. But you can actually hate what you are doing for a living and still love life. It's a myth that you must love what you do for a living. Some of us (many of us) don't have that good fortune. We do what we must to make a living. Hopefully, that will fulfill us in other ways as well. But if it doesn't, well,well -- we come home from work and find other ways to fulfill ourselves. We love our family, our pets, our volunteer work. Whatever. Work is not the end-all, be-all to ones happiness. It can be, sometimes IS, just a paycheck. What is wrong with that? Nothing! Unless you make it so.

Off my soapbox ...

Helena

From: "Kaivey" <akaivey>To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 11:31:20 AMSubject: Re: Stress at work

Do you know, I have never been able to get my head around some of theBuddhists ideas like suffering is optional. When I am in pain, I hateit, I can't see it being any other way. I can learn how to accept it,but it is still not my desired state. Open Focus believes that you candissolve pain away by concentrating on it and accepting it, and that Ican get my head around, but idea of putting up with pain for foreternity just gives me the willies.Earning a living is the most important thing, but being happy in yourwork must come a close second, I would hope. I can remember being happyat work once which was very nice, and I am sure the artisans of the pastcenturies were very happy too, when life was much simpler.Kv>> Hi all,>> I hear my own voice in every post in this thread.>> For myself, though, I've come to the conclusion that questions like> "Do we have a right to expect happiness in our work?" etc., are> misleading. They seem plausible, but they set us up in ways that> aren't helpful.>> Such questions tend to boil down to a single assumption: that work> is a game to be won, and that winning involves playing by "the> rules." These rules are supposedly "universal" - literally "out> there in the universe" as unwritten but all-governing laws.>> What's really going on, I think, is that work is uncertain; and> since minds hate uncertainty, they make up rules. Everybody's got a> mind, so everybody's got rules.>> We debate these rules with each other & ourselves, and never come to> an answer. The rules conflict with each other. Worse, they never> actually help us DO anything; they just hem us in. We start to spend> our time drawing imaginary lines we can't cross.>> I also think that asking a question like "Do I have the right?" is> very often an attempt to ward off disappointment. We are essentially> asking whether hope is an acceptable or unacceptable risk. And since> the question is not resolvable in the mind, we freeze up. We keep> trying to censor ourselves. And the pain bleeds out between the> lines anyway.>> On the other hand ... if there ARE no rules ... then it's up to us.> We get to choose. We get to be responsible, if we are willing.>> Practical advice exists. Universal rules do not. One of my issues> is that too often I misread this or that piece of practical advice> as constituting a rule. The rule is actually in my head! So I'm> working on that.>> We can hope & yearn for something without the universe being obliged> to give it to us. We can work toward our hopes anyway. We'll feel> the pain of being mortal, not just at work but in every aspect of> our lives. That seems to be part of the deal.>> - Randy>

[Guest guest]

What about when you spend days anticipating the pain of dental surgery, or years remembering the pain of a mugging? Are these extended involvements required or optional?If pain were pleasant, it would not serve its purpose so well. If I were to put a painful incident to rest along with the moment in which it happened, I would not suffer from the the memory of pain so much more than I did from the actual moment of hurt.Pain happens. It hurts, which is natural. Conceptualizing the consequences of hurt into an imaginary object which then sits in cognition like a new mental tumor may not be the most skillful use of our thinking that we have ever come up with....D

Do you know, I have never been able to get my head around some of the

Buddhists ideas like suffering is optional. When I am in pain, I hate

it, I can't see it being any other way. I can learn how to accept it,

but it is still not my desired state. Open Focus believes that you can

dissolve pain away by concentrating on it and accepting it, and that I

can get my head around, but idea of putting up with pain for for

eternity just gives me the willies.

Earning a living is the most important thing, but being happy in your

work must come a close second, I would hope. I can remember being happy

at work once which was very nice, and I am sure the artisans of the past

centuries were very happy too, when life was much simpler.

Kv

>

> Hi all,

>

> I hear my own voice in every post in this thread.

>

> For myself, though, I've come to the conclusion that questions like

> "Do we have a right to expect happiness in our work?" etc., are

> misleading. They seem plausible, but they set us up in ways that

> aren't helpful.

>

> Such questions tend to boil down to a single assumption: that work

> is a game to be won, and that winning involves playing by "the

> rules." These rules are supposedly "universal" - literally "out

> there in the universe" as unwritten but all-governing laws.

>

> What's really going on, I think, is that work is uncertain; and

> since minds hate uncertainty, they make up rules. Everybody's got a

> mind, so everybody's got rules.

>

> We debate these rules with each other & ourselves, and never come to

> an answer. The rules conflict with each other. Worse, they never

> actually help us DO anything; they just hem us in. We start to spend

> our time drawing imaginary lines we can't cross.

>

> I also think that asking a question like "Do I have the right?" is

> very often an attempt to ward off disappointment. We are essentially

> asking whether hope is an acceptable or unacceptable risk. And since

> the question is not resolvable in the mind, we freeze up. We keep

> trying to censor ourselves. And the pain bleeds out between the

> lines anyway.

>

> On the other hand ... if there ARE no rules ... then it's up to us.

> We get to choose. We get to be responsible, if we are willing.

>

> Practical advice exists. Universal rules do not. One of my issues

> is that too often I misread this or that piece of practical advice

> as constituting a rule. The rule is actually in my head! So I'm

> working on that.

>

> We can hope & yearn for something without the universe being obliged

> to give it to us. We can work toward our hopes anyway. We'll feel

> the pain of being mortal, not just at work but in every aspect of

> our lives. That seems to be part of the deal.

>

> - Randy

>