Re: Unhelpful thoughts / helpful thoughts

[Guest guest]

It's superficially true .... I'm not sure how deep it goesLet me explainFor people who are suffering, " helpful thoughts " turn into  " thoughts that will alleviate my suffering " and there you are, back to creating suffering.

So, no apologies, if you are suffering, get defusion / acceptance / mindfulness first.Get it so solid that there is no additional shoe to fall. Get it, full stop.The example you give is  more like " how can I think more creatively. "

However note one thing -- the specific example you give is " how can I understand the other. " There ACT is strong I think. If you do your perspective taking / transcendent sense of self / deictic work 

you are working one strengthening thoughts. Not problems solving thoughts -- perspective taking.And the kind of " understanding " that will likely be most important is not " figure it out " understanding --

its empathy and perspective taking. Do that and you " understand " in a much deeper wayThen we come down to problem solving. There is a role for it. Where is THAT in ACT?

Well, two places.First we know that creative problem solving requires going thru a period of not knowing.Experientially avoidant persons can't do that. Said in another way,

acceptance and defusion empowers creative problem solving.Second, problem solving shows up in the area of committed action.If you want to think deeply about an area ACT processes will empower that search

but the content knowledge about an area, you have to supply. Example:controlled studies have shown that ACT helps world classchess players play better chess. It is a super place to study what you asked about

because chess is HIGHLY  intellectual, and progress is extremely objective.There are international ladders with a well worked out point system. Now the rules of the game and the strategies of the masters etc etc

are not in ACT. But ACT will empower learning, retaining, and deploying that knowledge.So if you want to think differently and deeply and creatively about a domain,ACT will help you leverage content knowledge in that domain

But ACT itself does not contain strategies to think rationally etc.- S C. Foundation ProfessorDepartment of Psychology /298University of Nevada

Reno, NV 89557-0062 " Love isn't everything, it's the only thing " hayes@... or stevenchayes@...

Fax: Psych Department: Contextual Change (you can use this number for messages if need be): Blogs: Psychology Today  http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/get-out-your-mind

Huffington Post  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steven-c-hayes-phdIf you want my vita, publications, PowerPoint slides, try my training page: 

http://contextualpsychology.org/steve_hayesor you can try my website (it is semi-functional) stevenchayes.com

If you have any questions about ACT or RFT (articles, AAQ information etc), please first check the vast resources at website of the Association for Contextual Behavioral Science (ACBS): www.contextualpsychology.org. You have to register on the site to download things, but the cost is up to your own values.

If you are a professional or student and want to be part of the world wide ACT discussion or RFT discussions, join the ACT list: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy/join

or the RFT list:http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/relationalframetheory/joinIf you are a member of the public reading ACT self-help books (e.g., " Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life " etc) and want to be part of that conversation go to: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join

 

Hello. After having worked with Get out of your mind for a while I have got the impression that ACT doesn't put much focus on helpful thoughts, but more on dismissing unhelpful thoughts. It seems to me like ACT advocates no-thinking rather than thinking differently. Instead of thinking differently, ACT emphasizes to act differently.

One should defuse from unhelpful thoughts, just observering and without judging them, instead of questioning them. But judging and questioning is not the same thing. Questioning is (or can be) constructive, because it makes one doubt thoughts that says " I cant do this " and other thoughts that just doesn't help you.

For example, lets say I meet a person who is very angry and bitter and I get the thought that this person is a terrible person. Now I could either just observe this thought and defuse from it if I find it unhelpful,or I could question it, and maybe find that there is a reason why this person is so angry and bitter. Do you see the difference? In the first case I'm passive, just observing, in the other I'm more active and try to think differently.

I have got the feeling that ACT put too much focus on our actions and too little on our thoughts. Isn't our attitude one of the most important factors for our level of happiness? Can't one act the " right " way but still feel unhappy because of having the " wrong " attitude?

This is just some thoughts that swirls around in my poor head. Anyone else who have thought about this matter? I havent started with the values chapters yet but am now working with willingness. Very thankful for answers!

//Leon

[Guest guest]

>

> It's superficially true .... I'm not sure how deep it goes

>

> Let me explain

>

> For people who are suffering, " helpful thoughts " turn into

> " thoughts that will alleviate my suffering " and there you are, back to

> creating suffering.

> So, no apologies, if you are suffering, get defusion / acceptance /

> mindfulness *first*.

> Get it so solid that there is no additional shoe to fall. Get it, full stop.

First of all, I want to thank you for your answer and that you took your time

writing it, highly appreciated!

But helpful thoughts, or rational thoughts can alleviate suffering. It feels

like if you are just defusing, accepting and being mindful without any judgement

whatsoever you wont find any answer. For example: lets say I'm feeling angry at

my brother because I find him ruthless, I could just defuse (Im having the

feeling that im angry..Im having the thought that my brother is ruthless..how

does this thought help me? etc) and accept what Im feeling and the thoughts

about it and stay mindful. While I think acceptance is important, I can see

defusion as an escape from dealing with it all. Instead of defusing I could try

to think rationally about it / seeing it from another perspective ( " Maybe there

is a cause for his ruthlessness..I should talk about it with him " ). Maybe not

the best example but I couldnt come up with another one right now, but I hope

you see what I mean. Can defusion be in conflict with perspective taking?

Maybe I have got it all wrong when it comes to defusion? Maybe I have

over-emphasized defusion a bit in the application of ACT in my life. I think I

have misunderstood defusion as defusing from ALL thoughts, not just the

unhelpful ones but also the rational thoughts that in many cases help me seeing

things from another perspective. This is not the way to go right?

So could you see defusion, acceptance and mindfulness as a first step before

reflecting about it and trying to find a solution?

Ok I must admit that when I'm writing I find my question a bit absurd; of course

it's not about stop thinking but taking a step back and not getting too

entangled in one's thoughts. But this doesn't stand in conflict with thinking

differently / seeing things from another perspective.

>

> Then we come down to problem solving. There is a role for it. Where is THAT

> in ACT?

>

> Well, two places.

>

> First we know that creative problem solving requires going thru a period of

> not knowing.

> Experientially avoidant persons can't do that. Said in another way,

> acceptance and defusion empowers creative problem solving.

So your point is that one should accept the uncertainty of not knowing but still

strive to find an answer?

>

> Second, problem solving shows up in the area of committed action.

> If you want to think deeply about an area ACT processes will empower that

> search

> but the content knowledge about an area, you have to supply. Example:

> controlled studies have shown that ACT helps world class

> chess players play better chess. It is a super place to study what you

> asked about

> because chess is HIGHLY intellectual, and progress is extremely objective.

> There are international ladders with a well worked out point system.

> Now the rules of the game and the strategies of the masters etc etc

> are not in ACT. But ACT will empower learning, retaining, and deploying

> that knowledge.

>

> So if you want to think differently and deeply and creatively about a

> domain,

> ACT will help you leverage content knowledge in that domain

>

> But ACT itself does not contain strategies to think rationally etc.

Thank you, I will reflect some more on your answer now.

Greetings from Sweden // Leon

>

> >

>

[Guest guest]

If I may just step in here to say I'm filled with gratitude today for ACT. I'm

willing to say it may have saved my life, what's left of it. I have a long way

to go, but these words and works of yours and and others create

such an opening that continue to astound me. And gee, I'm just getting started.

Well, no, but with more earnestness now. A very good thing.

>

> > **

> >

> >

> > Hello. After having worked with Get out of your mind for a while I have

> > got the impression that ACT doesn't put much focus on helpful thoughts, but

> > more on dismissing unhelpful thoughts. It seems to me like ACT advocates

> > no-thinking rather than thinking differently. Instead of thinking

> > differently, ACT emphasizes to act differently.

> > One should defuse from unhelpful thoughts, just observering and without

> > judging them, instead of questioning them. But judging and questioning is

> > not the same thing. Questioning is (or can be) constructive, because it

> > makes one doubt thoughts that says " I cant do this " and other thoughts that

> > just doesn't help you.

> >

> > For example, lets say I meet a person who is very angry and bitter and I

> > get the thought that this person is a terrible person. Now I could either

> > just observe this thought and defuse from it if I find it unhelpful,or I

> > could question it, and maybe find that there is a reason why this person is

> > so angry and bitter. Do you see the difference? In the first case I'm

> > passive, just observing, in the other I'm more active and try to think

> > differently.

> > I have got the feeling that ACT put too much focus on our actions and too

> > little on our thoughts. Isn't our attitude one of the most important

> > factors for our level of happiness? Can't one act the " right " way but still

> > feel unhappy because of having the " wrong " attitude?

> >

> > This is just some thoughts that swirls around in my poor head. Anyone else

> > who have thought about this matter? I havent started with the values

> > chapters yet but am now working with willingness. Very thankful for answers!

> >

> > //Leon

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Leon I am very glad you posted this question, it doesn't seem absurd to me.

I have learned alot from your question and the following responses. I am new at

this and am fining it a bit confusing to say the least.

Wanda in New Mexico

[Guest guest]

wrote:"First we know that creative problem solving requires going thru a period of not knowing.Experientially avoidant persons can't do that. Said in another way,

acceptance and defusion empowers creative problem solving."Experientially avoidant persons can't do a heck of a lot of things, and there's the rub: how can one whose life has evolved to be experientially avoidant find another way? I know that a book and/or words on a screen won't do it. I know that talking to some well-credentialed persons won't do it. I know that drugs of all kinds won't do it (although they may buy time). What's left? Suicide?Rhetorical question. I think I know the answer.Cheers,Detlef>> It's superficially true .... I'm not sure how deep it goes> > Let me explain> > For people who are suffering, "helpful thoughts" turn into> "thoughts that will alleviate my suffering" and there you are, back to> creating suffering.> So, no apologies, if you are suffering, get defusion / acceptance /> mindfulness *first*.> Get it so solid that there is no additional shoe to fall. Get it, full stop.> > The example you give is more like "how can I think more creatively."> However note one thing -- the specific example you give is "how can I> understand the other."> There ACT is strong I think. If you do your perspective taking /> transcendent sense of self / deictic work> you are working one strengthening thoughts. Not problems solving thoughts> -- perspective taking.> And the kind of "understanding" that will likely be most important is not> "figure it out" understanding --> its empathy and perspective taking. Do that and you "understand" in a much> deeper way> > Then we come down to problem solving. There is a role for it. Where is THAT> in ACT?> > Well, two places.> > First we know that creative problem solving requires going thru a period of> not knowing.> Experientially avoidant persons can't do that. Said in another way,> acceptance and defusion empowers creative problem solving.> > Second, problem solving shows up in the area of committed action.> If you want to think deeply about an area ACT processes will empower that> search> but the content knowledge about an area, you have to supply. Example:> controlled studies have shown that ACT helps world class> chess players play better chess. It is a super place to study what you> asked about> because chess is HIGHLY intellectual, and progress is extremely objective.> There are international ladders with a well worked out point system.> Now the rules of the game and the strategies of the masters etc etc> are not in ACT. But ACT will empower learning, retaining, and deploying> that knowledge.> > So if you want to think differently and deeply and creatively about a> domain,> ACT will help you leverage content knowledge in that domain> > But ACT itself does not contain strategies to think rationally etc.> > - S> > C. > Foundation Professor> Department of Psychology /298> University of Nevada> Reno, NV 89557-0062> > "Love isn't everything, it's the only thing"> > hayes@... or stevenchayes@...> Fax: > Psych Department: > Contextual Change (you can use this number for messages if need be): (775)> 746-2013> > Blogs:> *Psychology Today* http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/get-out-your-mind> *Huffington Post * http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steven-c-hayes-phd> > If you want my vita, publications, PowerPoint slides, try my training> page:> http://contextualpsychology.org/steve_hayes> or you can try my website (it is semi-functional) stevenchayes.com> > If you have any questions about ACT or RFT (articles, AAQ information etc),> please first check the vast resources at website of the Association for> Contextual Behavioral Science (ACBS): www.contextualpsychology.org. You> have to register on the site to download things, but the cost is up to your> own values.> > If you are a professional or student and want to be part of the world wide> ACT discussion or RFT discussions, join the ACT list:> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy/join> or the RFT list:> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/relationalframetheory/join> > If you are a member of the public reading ACT self-help books (e.g., "Get> Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life" etc) and want to be part of that> conversation go to:> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join> > > On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 8:21 AM, soundofzen doesmybreathsmell@...wrote:> > > **> >> >> > Hello. After having worked with Get out of your mind for a while I have> > got the impression that ACT doesn't put much focus on helpful thoughts, but> > more on dismissing unhelpful thoughts. It seems to me like ACT advocates> > no-thinking rather than thinking differently. Instead of thinking> > differently, ACT emphasizes to act differently.> > One should defuse from unhelpful thoughts, just observering and without> > judging them, instead of questioning them. But judging and questioning is> > not the same thing. Questioning is (or can be) constructive, because it> > makes one doubt thoughts that says "I cant do this" and other thoughts that> > just doesn't help you.> >> > For example, lets say I meet a person who is very angry and bitter and I> > get the thought that this person is a terrible person. Now I could either> > just observe this thought and defuse from it if I find it unhelpful,or I> > could question it, and maybe find that there is a reason why this person is> > so angry and bitter. Do you see the difference? In the first case I'm> > passive, just observing, in the other I'm more active and try to think> > differently.> > I have got the feeling that ACT put too much focus on our actions and too> > little on our thoughts. Isn't our attitude one of the most important> > factors for our level of happiness? Can't one act the "right" way but still> > feel unhappy because of having the "wrong" attitude?> >> > This is just some thoughts that swirls around in my poor head. Anyone else> > who have thought about this matter? I havent started with the values> > chapters yet but am now working with willingness. Very thankful for answers!> >> > //Leon> >> > > >>

[Guest guest]

Well, honestly, not meant as a challenge but really no rub in there for me. If

it helps I'm an experiential avoidant person to the extreme and yet somehow some

grace of self-honesty with this work has crept in enough to see just what not

noticing (which you really can't do very well after you also notice) costs

me..this internal war..you only need a glimpse of that and a glimpse of some

willingness to try something new for a change. I think too the utter boredom of

my own suffering is what finally prompted me to begin making a shift..anything

but this scratchy broken record all over again!

best,

Terry

> >

> > It's superficially true .... I'm not sure how deep it goes

> >

> > Let me explain

> >

> > For people who are suffering, " helpful thoughts " turn into

> > " thoughts that will alleviate my suffering " and there you are, back to

> > creating suffering.

> > So, no apologies, if you are suffering, get defusion / acceptance /

> > mindfulness *first*.

> > Get it so solid that there is no additional shoe to fall. Get it, full

> stop.

> >

> > The example you give is more like " how can I think more creatively. "

> > However note one thing -- the specific example you give is " how can I

> > understand the other. "

> > There ACT is strong I think. If you do your perspective taking /

> > transcendent sense of self / deictic work

> > you are working one strengthening thoughts. Not problems solving

> thoughts

> > -- perspective taking.

> > And the kind of " understanding " that will likely be most important is

> not

> > " figure it out " understanding --

> > its empathy and perspective taking. Do that and you " understand " in a

> much

> > deeper way

> >

> > Then we come down to problem solving. There is a role for it. Where is

> THAT

> > in ACT?

> >

> > Well, two places.

> >

> > First we know that creative problem solving requires going thru a

> period of

> > not knowing.

> > Experientially avoidant persons can't do that. Said in another way,

> > acceptance and defusion empowers creative problem solving.

> >

> > Second, problem solving shows up in the area of committed action.

> > If you want to think deeply about an area ACT processes will empower

> that

> > search

> > but the content knowledge about an area, you have to supply. Example:

> > controlled studies have shown that ACT helps world class

> > chess players play better chess. It is a super place to study what you

> > asked about

> > because chess is HIGHLY intellectual, and progress is extremely

> objective.

> > There are international ladders with a well worked out point system.

> > Now the rules of the game and the strategies of the masters etc etc

> > are not in ACT. But ACT will empower learning, retaining, and

> deploying

> > that knowledge.

> >

> > So if you want to think differently and deeply and creatively about a

> > domain,

> > ACT will help you leverage content knowledge in that domain

> >

> > But ACT itself does not contain strategies to think rationally etc.

> >

> > - S

> >

> > C.

> > Foundation Professor

> > Department of Psychology /298

> > University of Nevada

> > Reno, NV 89557-0062

> >

> > " Love isn't everything, it's the only thing "

> >

> > hayes@ or stevenchayes@

> > Fax:

> > Psych Department:

> > Contextual Change (you can use this number for messages if need be):

> (775)

> > 746-2013

> >

> > Blogs:

> > *Psychology Today*

> http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/get-out-your-mind

> > *Huffington Post * http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steven-c-hayes-phd

> >

> > If you want my vita, publications, PowerPoint slides, try my training

> > page:

> > http://contextualpsychology.org/steve_hayes

> > or you can try my website (it is semi-functional) stevenchayes.com

> >

> > If you have any questions about ACT or RFT (articles, AAQ information

> etc),

> > please first check the vast resources at website of the Association

> for

> > Contextual Behavioral Science (ACBS): www.contextualpsychology.org.

> You

> > have to register on the site to download things, but the cost is up to

> your

> > own values.

> >

> > If you are a professional or student and want to be part of the world

> wide

> > ACT discussion or RFT discussions, join the ACT list:

> >

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy/join

> > or the RFT list:

> > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/relationalframetheory/join

> >

> > If you are a member of the public reading ACT self-help books (e.g.,

> " Get

> > Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life " etc) and want to be part of that

> > conversation go to:

> > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join

> >

> >

> > On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 8:21 AM, soundofzen

> doesmybreathsmell@...:

> >

> > > **

> > >

> > >

> > > Hello. After having worked with Get out of your mind for a while I

> have

> > > got the impression that ACT doesn't put much focus on helpful

> thoughts, but

> > > more on dismissing unhelpful thoughts. It seems to me like ACT

> advocates

> > > no-thinking rather than thinking differently. Instead of thinking

> > > differently, ACT emphasizes to act differently.

> > > One should defuse from unhelpful thoughts, just observering and

> without

> > > judging them, instead of questioning them. But judging and

> questioning is

> > > not the same thing. Questioning is (or can be) constructive, because

> it

> > > makes one doubt thoughts that says " I cant do this " and other

> thoughts that

> > > just doesn't help you.

> > >

> > > For example, lets say I meet a person who is very angry and bitter

> and I

> > > get the thought that this person is a terrible person. Now I could

> either

> > > just observe this thought and defuse from it if I find it

> unhelpful,or I

> > > could question it, and maybe find that there is a reason why this

> person is

> > > so angry and bitter. Do you see the difference? In the first case

> I'm

> > > passive, just observing, in the other I'm more active and try to

> think

> > > differently.

> > > I have got the feeling that ACT put too much focus on our actions

> and too

> > > little on our thoughts. Isn't our attitude one of the most important

> > > factors for our level of happiness? Can't one act the " right " way

> but still

> > > feel unhappy because of having the " wrong " attitude?

> > >

> > > This is just some thoughts that swirls around in my poor head.

> Anyone else

> > > who have thought about this matter? I havent started with the values

> > > chapters yet but am now working with willingness. Very thankful for

> answers!

> > >

> > > //Leon

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Reading words in a book or on a screen, talking to well-credentialed persons, thinking - those are all mindy things. Start doing one thing that is life-affirming (for you) and stop doing one thing that is sucking the life out of you. Make it small. Repeat.

Your life didn't evolve to become experientially avoidant all at once, nor can you unravel it all as once. Baby steps...

Helena

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 1:25:07 PMSubject: Re: Unhelpful thoughts / helpful thoughts

wrote:"First we know that creative problem solving requires going thru a period of not knowing. Experientially avoidant persons can't do that. Said in another way,

acceptance and defusion empowers creative problem solving."Experientially avoidant persons can't do a heck of a lot of things, and there's the rub: how can one whose life has evolved to be experientially avoidant find another way? I know that a book and/or words on a screen won't do it. I know that talking to some well-credentialed persons won't do it. I know that drugs of all kinds won't do it (although they may buy time). What's left? Suicide?Rhetorical question. I think I know the answer.Cheers,Detlef

>> It's superficially true .... I'm not sure how deep it goes> > Let me explain> > For people who are suffering, "helpful thoughts" turn into> "thoughts that will alleviate my suffering" and there you are, back to> creating suffering.> So, no apologies, if you are suffering, get defusion / acceptance /> mindfulness *first*.> Get it so solid that there is no additional shoe to fall. Get it, full stop.> > The example you give is more like "how can I think more creatively."> However note one thing -- the specific example you give is "how can I> understand the other."> There ACT is strong I think. If you do your perspective taking /> transcendent sense of self / deictic work> you are working one strengthening thoughts. Not problems solving thoughts> -- perspective taking.> And the kind of "understanding" that will likely be most important is not> "figure it out" understanding --> its empathy and perspective taking. Do that and you "understand" in a much> deeper way> > Then we come down to problem solving. There is a role for it. Where is THAT> in ACT?> > Well, two places.> > First we know that creative problem solving requires going thru a period of> not knowing.> Experientially avoidant persons can't do that. Said in another way,> acceptance and defusion empowers creative problem solving.> > Second, problem solving shows up in the area of committed action.> If you want to think deeply about an area ACT processes will empower that> search> but the content knowledge about an area, you have to supply. Example:> controlled studies have shown that ACT helps world class> chess players play better chess. It is a super place to study what you> asked about> because chess is HIGHLY intellectual, and progress is extremely objective.> There are international ladders with a well worked out point system.> Now the rules of the game and the strategies of the masters etc etc> are not in ACT. But ACT will empower learning, retaining, and deploying> that knowledge.> > So if you want to think differently and deeply and creatively about a> domain,> ACT will help you leverage content knowledge in that domain> > But ACT itself does not contain strategies to think rationally etc.> > - S> > C. > Foundation Professor> Department of Psychology /298> University of Nevada> Reno, NV 89557-0062> > "Love isn't everything, it's the only thing"> > hayes@... or stevenchayes@...> Fax: > Psych Department: > Contextual Change (you can use this number for messages if need be): (775)> 746-2013> > Blogs:> *Psychology Today* http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/get-out-your-mind> *Huffington Post * http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steven-c-hayes-phd> > If you want my vita, publications, PowerPoint slides, try my training> page:> http://contextualpsychology.org/steve_hayes> or you can try my website (it is semi-functional) stevenchayes.com> > If you have any questions about ACT or RFT (articles, AAQ information etc),> please first check the vast resources at website of the Association for> Contextual Behavioral Science (ACBS): www.contextualpsychology.org. You> have to register on the site to download things, but the cost is up to your> own values.> > If you are a professional or student and want to be part of the world wide> ACT discussion or RFT discussions, join the ACT list:> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy/join> or the RFT list:> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/relationalframetheory/join> > If you are a member of the public reading ACT self-help books (e.g., "Get> Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life" etc) and want to be part of that> conversation go to:> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join> > > On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 8:21 AM, soundofzen doesmybreathsmell@...wrote:> > > **> >> >> > Hello. After having worked with Get out of your mind for a while I have> > got the impression that ACT doesn't put much focus on helpful thoughts, but> > more on dismissing unhelpful thoughts. It seems to me like ACT advocates> > no-thinking rather than thinking differently. Instead of thinking> > differently, ACT emphasizes to act differently.> > One should defuse from unhelpful thoughts, just observering and without> > judging them, instead of questioning them. But judging and questioning is> > not the same thing. Questioning is (or can be) constructive, because it> > makes one doubt thoughts that says "I cant do this" and other thoughts that> > just doesn't help you.> >> > For example, lets say I meet a person who is very angry and bitter and I> > get the thought that this person is a terrible person. Now I could either> > just observe this thought and defuse from it if I find it unhelpful,or I> > could question it, and maybe find that there is a reason why this person is> > so angry and bitter. Do you see the difference? In the first case I'm> > passive, just observing, in the other I'm more active and try to think> > differently.> > I have got the feeling that ACT put too much focus on our actions and too> > little on our thoughts. Isn't our attitude one of the most important> > factors for our level of happiness? Can't one act the "right" way but still> > feel unhappy because of having the "wrong" attitude?> >> > This is just some thoughts that swirls around in my poor head. Anyone else> > who have thought about this matter? I havent started with the values> > chapters yet but am now working with willingness. Very thankful for answers!> >> > //Leon> >> > > >>

[Guest guest]

Fortunately every little bit helps ... sometimes a lotMy wife was giving me a poke about how avoidant Iam in some areas a few days ago. I was glad for the poke (good to keep your eye on things -- and good that she

doesn't let me get away with stuff I should not get away with) and I agreed with it. But also I thought " it's amazing I do as well as I do " --it turns out that even a little different can be a lot different. 

When I look back I see the progress clearly.When I look now I see how far there is to goMy suspicion: no matter how long I walk this journey thatwill ever be so

- S C. Foundation ProfessorDepartment of Psychology /298University of NevadaReno, NV 89557-0062 " Love isn't everything, it's the only thing "

hayes@... or stevenchayes@...Fax: Psych Department: Contextual Change (you can use this number for messages if need be):

Blogs: Psychology Today  http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/get-out-your-mindHuffington Post  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steven-c-hayes-phd

If you want my vita, publications, PowerPoint slides, try my training page:  http://contextualpsychology.org/steve_hayesor you can try my website (it is semi-functional) stevenchayes.com

If you have any questions about ACT or RFT (articles, AAQ information etc), please first check the vast resources at website of the Association for Contextual Behavioral Science (ACBS): www.contextualpsychology.org. You have to register on the site to download things, but the cost is up to your own values.

If you are a professional or student and want to be part of the world wide ACT discussion or RFT discussions, join the ACT list: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy/join

or the RFT list:http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/relationalframetheory/joinIf you are a member of the public reading ACT self-help books (e.g., " Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life " etc) and want to be part of that conversation go to: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join

 

Reading words in a book or on a screen, talking to well-credentialed persons, thinking - those are all mindy things.  Start doing one thing that is life-affirming (for you) and stop doing one thing that is sucking the life out of you.  Make it small.  Repeat.

 

Your life didn't evolve to become experientially avoidant all at once, nor can you unravel it all as once.  Baby steps... 

 

Helena

To: " ACT for the Public " <ACT_for_the_Public >

Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 1:25:07 PMSubject: Re: Unhelpful thoughts / helpful thoughts

 

wrote: " First we know that creative problem solving requires going thru a period of not knowing. Experientially avoidant persons can't do that. Said in another way,

acceptance and defusion empowers creative problem solving. " Experientially avoidant persons can't do a heck of a lot of things, and there's the rub: how can one whose life has evolved to be experientially avoidant find another way? I know that a book and/or words on a screen won't do it. I know that talking to some well-credentialed persons won't do it. I know that drugs of all kinds won't do it (although they may buy time). What's left? Suicide?

Rhetorical question. I think I know the answer.Cheers,Detlef

>> It's superficially true .... I'm not sure how deep it goes

> > Let me explain> > For people who are suffering, " helpful thoughts " turn into> " thoughts that will alleviate my suffering " and there you are, back to> creating suffering.

> So, no apologies, if you are suffering, get defusion / acceptance /> mindfulness *first*.> Get it so solid that there is no additional shoe to fall. Get it, full stop.> > The example you give is more like " how can I think more creatively. "

> However note one thing -- the specific example you give is " how can I> understand the other. " > There ACT is strong I think. If you do your perspective taking /> transcendent sense of self / deictic work

> you are working one strengthening thoughts. Not problems solving thoughts> -- perspective taking.> And the kind of " understanding " that will likely be most important is not> " figure it out " understanding --

> its empathy and perspective taking. Do that and you " understand " in a much> deeper way> > Then we come down to problem solving. There is a role for it. Where is THAT> in ACT?

> > Well, two places.> > First we know that creative problem solving requires going thru a period of> not knowing.> Experientially avoidant persons can't do that. Said in another way,

> acceptance and defusion empowers creative problem solving.> > Second, problem solving shows up in the area of committed action.> If you want to think deeply about an area ACT processes will empower that

> search> but the content knowledge about an area, you have to supply. Example:> controlled studies have shown that ACT helps world class> chess players play better chess. It is a super place to study what you

> asked about> because chess is HIGHLY intellectual, and progress is extremely objective.> There are international ladders with a well worked out point system.> Now the rules of the game and the strategies of the masters etc etc

> are not in ACT. But ACT will empower learning, retaining, and deploying> that knowledge.> > So if you want to think differently and deeply and creatively about a> domain,> ACT will help you leverage content knowledge in that domain

> > But ACT itself does not contain strategies to think rationally etc.> > - S> > C. > Foundation Professor> Department of Psychology /298> University of Nevada

> Reno, NV 89557-0062> > " Love isn't everything, it's the only thing " > > hayes@... or stevenchayes@...> Fax:

> Psych Department: > Contextual Change (you can use this number for messages if need be): (775)> 746-2013>

> Blogs:> *Psychology Today* http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/get-out-your-mind> *Huffington Post * http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steven-c-hayes-phd

> > If you want my vita, publications, PowerPoint slides, try my training> page:> http://contextualpsychology.org/steve_hayes

> or you can try my website (it is semi-functional) stevenchayes.com> > If you have any questions about ACT or RFT (articles, AAQ information etc),

> please first check the vast resources at website of the Association for> Contextual Behavioral Science (ACBS): www.contextualpsychology.org. You

> have to register on the site to download things, but the cost is up to your> own values.> > If you are a professional or student and want to be part of the world wide> ACT discussion or RFT discussions, join the ACT list:

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy/join> or the RFT list:> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/relationalframetheory/join

> > If you are a member of the public reading ACT self-help books (e.g., " Get> Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life " etc) and want to be part of that> conversation go to:> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join

> > > On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 8:21 AM, soundofzen doesmybreathsmell@...wrote:> > > **> >> >> > Hello. After having worked with Get out of your mind for a while I have

> > got the impression that ACT doesn't put much focus on helpful thoughts, but> > more on dismissing unhelpful thoughts. It seems to me like ACT advocates> > no-thinking rather than thinking differently. Instead of thinking

> > differently, ACT emphasizes to act differently.> > One should defuse from unhelpful thoughts, just observering and without> > judging them, instead of questioning them. But judging and questioning is

> > not the same thing. Questioning is (or can be) constructive, because it> > makes one doubt thoughts that says " I cant do this " and other thoughts that> > just doesn't help you.

> >> > For example, lets say I meet a person who is very angry and bitter and I> > get the thought that this person is a terrible person. Now I could either> > just observe this thought and defuse from it if I find it unhelpful,or I

> > could question it, and maybe find that there is a reason why this person is> > so angry and bitter. Do you see the difference? In the first case I'm> > passive, just observing, in the other I'm more active and try to think

> > differently.> > I have got the feeling that ACT put too much focus on our actions and too> > little on our thoughts. Isn't our attitude one of the most important> > factors for our level of happiness? Can't one act the " right " way but still

> > feel unhappy because of having the " wrong " attitude?> >> > This is just some thoughts that swirls around in my poor head. Anyone else> > who have thought about this matter? I havent started with the values

> > chapters yet but am now working with willingness. Very thankful for answers!> >> > //Leon> >> > > >>

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi Leon I am very glad you posted this question, it doesn't seem absurd to

me. I have learned alot from your question and the following responses. I am

new at this and am fining it a bit confusing to say the least.

> Wanda in New Mexico

>

Thank you Wanda.

Another concrete example:

I texted my newly met girlfriend and asked her if she wanted to see me tonight

and she hasn't answered yet. My mind starts to wander ( " What if she doesn't want

to see me? Blablabla " ). Here I could just defuse from it without arguing or

question the thought, or I could think rational about it ( " Well, maybe she

didn't hear her cellphone. Why wouldn't she want to see me? Things are going

great. " )

To me it just seems absurd to " ignore " the content of some thoughts by defusing

from them. Some thoughts SHOULD be questioned, if you ask me. Of course, it's a

good thing if you are aware of the whole stream of thoughts and are able to take

a step back and just watch it flow. What I find odd is to just observe and be

passive. While that has its benefits, I think it is important to question the

content of some thoughts many times!

Anyone who agrees?

// Leon

[Guest guest]

Over the last few months I have gone through the mincer again and again

and then after getting knocked off my bicycle on the way to work one

day, I thought wow! I can have rest now, except that by staying at home

for a week I ended up going into a catronic depression instead just

staring at the walls all day long. I also became riddled with fear and

could not comb my hair, or wash, or tidy up. Food taste like cardboard

and there was this unpleasant burning sensation in my mouth. Afterwards

the fear became so intense that I felt I would never be able to work

again, but I went back to work anyway determined and feeling brave only

to to find that I kept freezing on the spot unable to move. I then

realsied that facing this stuff everyday for months on end had

completely wrecked me and had I had become worn out. I felt finished.

In the old days maybe I would have gone home sick again seen my doctor

and taken medication but I knew this was not an option for me anymore. I

also thought that maybe I should just go home and go to bed but I knew

the fear of returning to work again would become too overwhelming and so

this was not an option either. In the end all I had left was the

willingness accepting suffering and so I turned towards it. It felt like

my legs were in treacle and it was agony to move about, but I embraced

it. After 2 days the Sun that was shining through the windows of the

grey factory where I worked looked so lovely and it was then that I felt

that I had gone through the worst of it and I became in awe of my

determination where I felt proud of my achievements.

Finally, the holiday period came and sitting around with my girlfriend's

family it felt like even the marrow in my bones ached and hurt badly,

which scared me. Plus I also could not stop wriggling with what seemed

to be unbearable muscular tension. It was then that I realised that

going into the mincer everyday was killing me and that perhaps I was

doing something wrong which was not helping me that much. Oh well, just

the way it has to be I guess because I'm not pulling out now. I know

what I want and I'm going for it. There is no turning back now.

Kv

> > >

> > > It's superficially true .... I'm not sure how deep it goes

> > >

> > > Let me explain

> > >

> > > For people who are suffering, " helpful thoughts " turn into

> > > " thoughts that will alleviate my suffering " and there you are,

back to

> > > creating suffering.

> > > So, no apologies, if you are suffering, get defusion / acceptance

/

> > > mindfulness *first*.

> > > Get it so solid that there is no additional shoe to fall. Get it,

full

> > stop.

> > >

> > > The example you give is more like " how can I think more

creatively. "

> > > However note one thing -- the specific example you give is " how

can I

> > > understand the other. "

> > > There ACT is strong I think. If you do your perspective taking /

> > > transcendent sense of self / deictic work

> > > you are working one strengthening thoughts. Not problems solving

thoughts

> > > -- perspective taking.

> > > And the kind of " understanding " that will likely be most important

is not

> > > " figure it out " understanding --

> > > its empathy and perspective taking. Do that and you " understand "

in a

> > much

> > > deeper way

> > >

> > > Then we come down to problem solving. There is a role for it.

Where is

> > THAT

> > > in ACT?

> > >

> > > Well, two places.

> > >

> > > First we know that creative problem solving requires going thru a

period

> > of

> > > not knowing.

> > > Experientially avoidant persons can't do that. Said in another

way,

> > > acceptance and defusion empowers creative problem solving.

> > >

> > > Second, problem solving shows up in the area of committed action.

> > > If you want to think deeply about an area ACT processes will

empower that

> > > search

> > > but the content knowledge about an area, you have to supply.

Example:

> > > controlled studies have shown that ACT helps world class

> > > chess players play better chess. It is a super place to study what

you

> > > asked about

> > > because chess is HIGHLY intellectual, and progress is extremely

> > objective.

> > > There are international ladders with a well worked out point

system.

> > > Now the rules of the game and the strategies of the masters etc

etc

> > > are not in ACT. But ACT will empower learning, retaining, and

deploying

> > > that knowledge.

> > >

> > > So if you want to think differently and deeply and creatively

about a

> > > domain,

> > > ACT will help you leverage content knowledge in that domain

> > >

> > > But ACT itself does not contain strategies to think rationally

etc.

> > >

> > > - S

> > >

> > > C.

> > > Foundation Professor

> > > Department of Psychology /298

> > > University of Nevada

> > > Reno, NV 89557-0062

> > >

> > > " Love isn't everything, it's the only thing "

> > >

> > > hayes@ or stevenchayes@

> > > Fax:

> > > Psych Department:

> > > Contextual Change (you can use this number for messages if need

be):

> > (775)

> > > 746-2013

> > >

> > > Blogs:

> > > *Psychology Today*

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/get-out-your-mind

> > > *Huffington Post *

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steven-c-hayes-phd

> > >

> > > If you want my vita, publications, PowerPoint slides, try my

training

> > > page:

> > > http://contextualpsychology.org/steve_hayes

> > > or you can try my website (it is semi-functional) stevenchayes.com

> > >

> > > If you have any questions about ACT or RFT (articles, AAQ

information

> > etc),

> > > please first check the vast resources at website of the

Association for

> > > Contextual Behavioral Science (ACBS):

www.contextualpsychology.org. You

> > > have to register on the site to download things, but the cost is

up to

> > your

> > > own values.

> > >

> > > If you are a professional or student and want to be part of the

world

> > wide

> > > ACT discussion or RFT discussions, join the ACT list:

> > >

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy/join

> > > or the RFT list:

> > > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/relationalframetheory/join

> > >

> > > If you are a member of the public reading ACT self-help books

(e.g., " Get

> > > Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life " etc) and want to be part of

that

> > > conversation go to:

> > > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join

> > >

> > >

> > > On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 8:21 AM, soundofzen doesmybreathsmell@...:

> > >

> > > > **

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Hello. After having worked with Get out of your mind for a while

I have

> > > > got the impression that ACT doesn't put much focus on helpful

> > thoughts, but

> > > > more on dismissing unhelpful thoughts. It seems to me like ACT

> > advocates

> > > > no-thinking rather than thinking differently. Instead of

thinking

> > > > differently, ACT emphasizes to act differently.

> > > > One should defuse from unhelpful thoughts, just observering and

without

> > > > judging them, instead of questioning them. But judging and

questioning

> > is

> > > > not the same thing. Questioning is (or can be) constructive,

because it

> > > > makes one doubt thoughts that says " I cant do this " and other

thoughts

> > that

> > > > just doesn't help you.

> > > >

> > > > For example, lets say I meet a person who is very angry and

bitter and

> > I

> > > > get the thought that this person is a terrible person. Now I

could

> > either

> > > > just observe this thought and defuse from it if I find it

unhelpful,or

> > I

> > > > could question it, and maybe find that there is a reason why

this

> > person is

> > > > so angry and bitter. Do you see the difference? In the first

case I'm

> > > > passive, just observing, in the other I'm more active and try to

think

> > > > differently.

> > > > I have got the feeling that ACT put too much focus on our

actions and

> > too

> > > > little on our thoughts. Isn't our attitude one of the most

important

> > > > factors for our level of happiness? Can't one act the " right "

way but

> > still

> > > > feel unhappy because of having the " wrong " attitude?

> > > >

> > > > This is just some thoughts that swirls around in my poor head.

Anyone

> > else

> > > > who have thought about this matter? I havent started with the

values

> > > > chapters yet but am now working with willingness. Very thankful

for

> > answers!

> > > >

> > > > //Leon

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Over the last few months I have gone through the mincer again and again

> and then after getting knocked off my bicycle on the way to work one

> day, I thought wow! I can have rest now, except that by staying at home

> for a week I ended up going into a catronic depression instead just

> staring at the walls all day long. I also became riddled with fear and

> could not comb my hair, or wash, or tidy up. Food taste like cardboard

> and there was this unpleasant burning sensation in my mouth. Afterwards

> the fear became so intense that I felt I would never be able to work

> again, but I went back to work anyway determined and feeling brave only

> to to find that I kept freezing on the spot unable to move. I then

> realsied that facing this stuff everyday for months on end had

> completely wrecked me and had I had become worn out. I felt finished.

>

> In the old days maybe I would have gone home sick again seen my doctor

> and taken medication but I knew this was not an option for me anymore. I

> also thought that maybe I should just go home and go to bed but I knew

> the fear of returning to work again would become too overwhelming and so

> this was not an option either. In the end all I had left was the

> willingness accepting suffering and so I turned towards it. It felt like

> my legs were in treacle and it was agony to move about, but I embraced

> it. After 2 days the Sun that was shining through the windows of the

> grey factory where I worked looked so lovely and it was then that I felt

> that I had gone through the worst of it and I became in awe of my

> determination where I felt proud of my achievements.

>

> Finally, the holiday period came and sitting around with my girlfriend's

> family it felt like even the marrow in my bones ached and hurt badly,

> which scared me. Plus I also could not stop wriggling with what seemed

> to be unbearable muscular tension. It was then that I realised that

> going into the mincer everyday was killing me and that perhaps I was

> doing something wrong which was not helping me that much. Oh well, just

> the way it has to be I guess because I'm not pulling out now. I know

> what I want and I'm going for it. There is no turning back now.

>

> Kv

>

>

>

>

Way to go Kaivey! Isn't it strange? You have this idea that accepting the pain

is like psychological suicide, but after you have said yes to it, you are free.

don't turn your back on yourself now, stay with yourself and your pain.

Btw, what's " the mincer " ?

Leon

[Guest guest]

Hi Kv:I can relate to your staying home for a week. I'm in my fifth week of being disabled after knee surgery and it's really beating me down. But I am trying to use the time to work on myself and maybe make some progress towards acceptance. I've been doing a lot reading and everyone says the answer is acceptance. It's an elusive concept for me. Maybe I'm trying too hard. I know that my knee injury is one real thing I have to accept and most of the time I do. It's my mental emotions that I have a hard time with.I'm glad that you have come through the worst of it. It's inspiring that you could feel so low and come back and be better. I'm glad that you could feel pride in your accomplishments. It's going to be awhile before I'm back to normal. Not that normal was that great but I'm appreciating how things were before now that I've lost them. My old life seems more valued now that I've lost it. I also have the fear that I won't have the strength to resume work when I need to but I always have in the past, no matter how bad I've felt. I think the injury has kicked up the stress hormones and made me more sensitive. This is my second time with the same knee injury and maybe my emotions remember more than my conscious mind does about the pain from last time.Best wishes to you for your recovery.Bruce Over the last few months I have gone through the mincer again and again and then after getting knocked off my bicycle on the way to work one day, I thought wow! I can have rest now, except that by staying at home for a week I ended up going into a catronic depression instead just staring at the walls all day long. I also became riddled with fear and could not comb my hair, or wash, or tidy up. Food taste like cardboard and there was this unpleasant burning sensation in my mouth. Afterwards the fear became so intense that I felt I would never be able to work again, but I went back to work anyway determined and feeling brave only to to find that I kept freezing on the spot unable to move. I then realsied that facing this stuff everyday for months on end had completely wrecked me and had I had become worn out. I felt finished. In the old days maybe I would have gone home sick again seen my doctor and taken medication but I knew this was not an option for me anymore. I also thought that maybe I should just go home and go to bed but I knew the fear of returning to work again would become too overwhelming and so this was not an option either. In the end all I had left was the willingness accepting suffering and so I turned towards it. It felt like my legs were in treacle and it was agony to move about, but I embraced it. After 2 days the Sun that was shining through the windows of the grey factory where I worked looked so lovely and it was then that I felt that I had gone through the worst of it and I became in awe of my determination where I felt proud of my achievements. Finally, the holiday period came and sitting around with my girlfriend's family it felt like even the marrow in my bones ached and hurt badly, which scared me. Plus I also could not stop wriggling with what seemed to be unbearable muscular tension. It was then that I realised that going into the mincer everyday was killing me and that perhaps I was doing something wrong which was not helping me that much. Oh well, just the way it has to be I guess because I'm not pulling out now. I know what I want and I'm going for it. There is no turning back now. Kv > > > > > > It's superficially true .... I'm not sure how deep it goes > > > > > > Let me explain > > > > > > For people who are suffering, "helpful thoughts" turn into > > > "thoughts that will alleviate my suffering" and there you are, back to > > > creating suffering. > > > So, no apologies, if you are suffering, get defusion / acceptance / > > > mindfulness *first*. > > > Get it so solid that there is no additional shoe to fall. Get it, full > > stop. > > > > > > The example you give is more like "how can I think more creatively." > > > However note one thing -- the specific example you give is "how can I > > > understand the other." > > > There ACT is strong I think. If you do your perspective taking / > > > transcendent sense of self / deictic work > > > you are working one strengthening thoughts. Not problems solving thoughts > > > -- perspective taking. > > > And the kind of "understanding" that will likely be most important is not > > > "figure it out" understanding -- > > > its empathy and perspective taking. Do that and you "understand" in a > > much > > > deeper way > > > > > > Then we come down to problem solving. There is a role for it. Where is > > THAT > > > in ACT? > > > > > > Well, two places. > > > > > > First we know that creative problem solving requires going thru a period > > of > > > not knowing. > > > Experientially avoidant persons can't do that. Said in another way, > > > acceptance and defusion empowers creative problem solving. > > > > > > Second, problem solving shows up in the area of committed action. > > > If you want to think deeply about an area ACT processes will empower that > > > search > > > but the content knowledge about an area, you have to supply. Example: > > > controlled studies have shown that ACT helps world class > > > chess players play better chess. It is a super place to study what you > > > asked about > > > because chess is HIGHLY intellectual, and progress is extremely > > objective. > > > There are international ladders with a well worked out point system. > > > Now the rules of the game and the strategies of the masters etc etc > > > are not in ACT. But ACT will empower learning, retaining, and deploying > > > that knowledge. > > > > > > So if you want to think differently and deeply and creatively about a > > > domain, > > > ACT will help you leverage content knowledge in that domain > > > > > > But ACT itself does not contain strategies to think rationally etc. > > > > > > - S > > > > > > C. > > > Foundation Professor > > > Department of Psychology /298 > > > University of Nevada > > > Reno, NV 89557-0062 > > > > > > "Love isn't everything, it's the only thing" > > > > > > hayes@ or stevenchayes@ > > > Fax: > > > Psych Department: > > > Contextual Change (you can use this number for messages if need be): > > (775) > > > 746-2013 > > > > > > Blogs: > > > *Psychology Today* http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/get-out-your-mind > > > *Huffington Post * http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steven-c-hayes-phd > > > > > > If you want my vita, publications, PowerPoint slides, try my training > > > page: > > > http://contextualpsychology.org/steve_hayes > > > or you can try my website (it is semi-functional) stevenchayes.com > > > > > > If you have any questions about ACT or RFT (articles, AAQ information > > etc), > > > please first check the vast resources at website of the Association for > > > Contextual Behavioral Science (ACBS): www.contextualpsychology.org. You > > > have to register on the site to download things, but the cost is up to > > your > > > own values. > > > > > > If you are a professional or student and want to be part of the world > > wide > > > ACT discussion or RFT discussions, join the ACT list: > > > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy/join > > > or the RFT list: > > > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/relationalframetheory/join > > > > > > If you are a member of the public reading ACT self-help books (e.g., "Get > > > Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life" etc) and want to be part of that > > > conversation go to: > > > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 8:21 AM, soundofzen doesmybreathsmell@...: > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello. After having worked with Get out of your mind for a while I have > > > > got the impression that ACT doesn't put much focus on helpful > > thoughts, but > > > > more on dismissing unhelpful thoughts. It seems to me like ACT > > advocates > > > > no-thinking rather than thinking differently. Instead of thinking > > > > differently, ACT emphasizes to act differently. > > > > One should defuse from unhelpful thoughts, just observering and without > > > > judging them, instead of questioning them. But judging and questioning > > is > > > > not the same thing. Questioning is (or can be) constructive, because it > > > > makes one doubt thoughts that says "I cant do this" and other thoughts > > that > > > > just doesn't help you. > > > > > > > > For example, lets say I meet a person who is very angry and bitter and > > I > > > > get the thought that this person is a terrible person. Now I could > > either > > > > just observe this thought and defuse from it if I find it unhelpful,or > > I > > > > could question it, and maybe find that there is a reason why this > > person is > > > > so angry and bitter. Do you see the difference? In the first case I'm > > > > passive, just observing, in the other I'm more active and try to think > > > > differently. > > > > I have got the feeling that ACT put too much focus on our actions and > > too > > > > little on our thoughts. Isn't our attitude one of the most important > > > > factors for our level of happiness? Can't one act the "right" way but > > still > > > > feel unhappy because of having the "wrong" attitude? > > > > > > > > This is just some thoughts that swirls around in my poor head. Anyone > > else > > > > who have thought about this matter? I havent started with the values > > > > chapters yet but am now working with willingness. Very thankful for > > answers! > > > > > > > > //Leon > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Hi Leon

Yes I do agree with you. It's one of the aspects of ACT that I've never quite

" got " . I know the answer usually comes back " defuse if the thought is

unhelpful " . So perhaps one approach is to engage with the thoughts, as you did

here with the thoughts about why your girlfriend didn't respond. It seems

sensible to me to use one's critical faculties to try and objectively assess the

situation. After all that's what our minds are good for.

But AFTER that, when the same thoughts keep on popping into your head (as they

most likely will, even though you've looked at sensible alternative reasons for

her not responding) THEN defuse from them.

I don't know if that is 100% ACT " compliant " but it's what I would do :-)

Cheers

Kate

>

>

>Another concrete example:

I texted my newly met girlfriend and asked her if she wanted to see me tonight

and she hasn't answered yet. My mind starts to wander ( " What if she doesn't want

to see me? Blablabla " ). Here I could just defuse from it without arguing or

question the thought, or I could think rational about it ( " Well, maybe she

didn't hear her cellphone. Why wouldn't she want to see me? Things are going

great. " )

>

> To me it just seems absurd to " ignore " the content of some thoughts by

defusing from them. Some thoughts SHOULD be questioned, if you ask me. Of

course, it's a good thing if you are aware of the whole stream of thoughts and

are able to take a step back and just watch it flow. What I find odd is to just

observe and be passive. While that has its benefits, I think it is important to

question the content of some thoughts many times!

>

> Anyone who agrees?

>

> // Leon

>

[Guest guest]

I find it helpful to include "I don't know" in the list of possibilities in these situations. It is often the most true and the least "unhelpful."BillTo: ACT_for_the_Public From: kate7250@...Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 23:45:13 +0000Subject: Re: Unhelpful thoughts / helpful thoughts

Hi Leon

Yes I do agree with you. It's one of the aspects of ACT that I've never quite "got". I know the answer usually comes back "defuse if the thought is unhelpful". So perhaps one approach is to engage with the thoughts, as you did here with the thoughts about why your girlfriend didn't respond. It seems sensible to me to use one's critical faculties to try and objectively assess the situation. After all that's what our minds are good for.

But AFTER that, when the same thoughts keep on popping into your head (as they most likely will, even though you've looked at sensible alternative reasons for her not responding) THEN defuse from them.

I don't know if that is 100% ACT "compliant" but it's what I would do :-)

Cheers

Kate

>

>

>Another concrete example:

I texted my newly met girlfriend and asked her if she wanted to see me tonight and she hasn't answered yet. My mind starts to wander ("What if she doesn't want to see me? Blablabla"). Here I could just defuse from it without arguing or question the thought, or I could think rational about it ("Well, maybe she didn't hear her cellphone. Why wouldn't she want to see me? Things are going great.")

>

> To me it just seems absurd to "ignore" the content of some thoughts by defusing from them. Some thoughts SHOULD be questioned, if you ask me. Of course, it's a good thing if you are aware of the whole stream of thoughts and are able to take a step back and just watch it flow. What I find odd is to just observe and be passive. While that has its benefits, I think it is important to question the content of some thoughts many times!

>

> Anyone who agrees?

>

> // Leon

>

[Guest guest]

Ha - very good point Bill! Just sitting with that possibility is good practice

of acceptance.

Cheers

Kate

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >Another concrete example:

>

>

>

> I texted my newly met girlfriend and asked her if she wanted to see me tonight

and she hasn't answered yet. My mind starts to wander ( " What if she doesn't want

to see me? Blablabla " ). Here I could just defuse from it without arguing or

question the thought, or I could think rational about it ( " Well, maybe she

didn't hear her cellphone. Why wouldn't she want to see me? Things are going

great. " )

>

>

>

> >

>

> > To me it just seems absurd to " ignore " the content of some thoughts by

defusing from them. Some thoughts SHOULD be questioned, if you ask me. Of

course, it's a good thing if you are aware of the whole stream of thoughts and

are able to take a step back and just watch it flow. What I find odd is to just

observe and be passive. While that has its benefits, I think it is important to

question the content of some thoughts many times!

>

> >

>

> > Anyone who agrees?

>

> >

>

> > // Leon

>

> >

>

[Guest guest]

yeah,just one thing different than my automatic mode of behavior, (including

perhaps bringing a different kind of attention when speaking with a professional

or reading words on a page if that's what's needed) is so amazingly helpful

these days. Shakes things up.

> >

> > It's superficially true .... I'm not sure how deep it goes

> >

> > Let me explain

> >

> > For people who are suffering, " helpful thoughts " turn into

> > " thoughts that will alleviate my suffering " and there you are, back to

> > creating suffering.

> > So, no apologies, if you are suffering, get defusion / acceptance /

> > mindfulness *first*.

> > Get it so solid that there is no additional shoe to fall. Get it, full stop.

> >

> > The example you give is more like " how can I think more creatively. "

> > However note one thing -- the specific example you give is " how can I

> > understand the other. "

> > There ACT is strong I think. If you do your perspective taking /

> > transcendent sense of self / deictic work

> > you are working one strengthening thoughts. Not problems solving thoughts

> > -- perspective taking.

> > And the kind of " understanding " that will likely be most important is not

> > " figure it out " understanding --

> > its empathy and perspective taking. Do that and you " understand " in a much

> > deeper way

> >

> > Then we come down to problem solving. There is a role for it. Where is THAT

> > in ACT?

> >

> > Well, two places.

> >

> > First we know that creative problem solving requires going thru a period of

> > not knowing.

> > Experientially avoidant persons can't do that. Said in another way,

> > acceptance and defusion empowers creative problem solving.

> >

> > Second, problem solving shows up in the area of committed action.

> > If you want to think deeply about an area ACT processes will empower that

> > search

> > but the content knowledge about an area, you have to supply. Example:

> > controlled studies have shown that ACT helps world class

> > chess players play better chess. It is a super place to study what you

> > asked about

> > because chess is HIGHLY intellectual, and progress is extremely objective.

> > There are international ladders with a well worked out point system.

> > Now the rules of the game and the strategies of the masters etc etc

> > are not in ACT. But ACT will empower learning, retaining, and deploying

> > that knowledge.

> >

> > So if you want to think differently and deeply and creatively about a

> > domain,

> > ACT will help you leverage content knowledge in that domain

> >

> > But ACT itself does not contain strategies to think rationally etc.

> >

> > - S

> >

> > C.

> > Foundation Professor

> > Department of Psychology /298

> > University of Nevada

> > Reno, NV 89557-0062

> >

> > " Love isn't everything, it's the only thing "

> >

> > hayes@ or stevenchayes@

> > Fax:

> > Psych Department:

> > Contextual Change (you can use this number for messages if need be): (775)

> > 746-2013

> >

> > Blogs:

> > *Psychology Today* http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/get-out-your-mind

> > *Huffington Post * http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steven-c-hayes-phd

> >

> > If you want my vita, publications, PowerPoint slides, try my training

> > page:

> > http://contextualpsychology.org/steve_hayes

> > or you can try my website (it is semi-functional) stevenchayes.com

> >

> > If you have any questions about ACT or RFT (articles, AAQ information etc),

> > please first check the vast resources at website of the Association for

> > Contextual Behavioral Science (ACBS): www.contextualpsychology.org. You

> > have to register on the site to download things, but the cost is up to your

> > own values.

> >

> > If you are a professional or student and want to be part of the world wide

> > ACT discussion or RFT discussions, join the ACT list:

> > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy/join

> > or the RFT list:

> > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/relationalframetheory/join

> >

> > If you are a member of the public reading ACT self-help books (e.g., " Get

> > Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life " etc) and want to be part of that

> > conversation go to:

> > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join

> >

> >

> > On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 8:21 AM, soundofzen doesmybreathsmell@...:

> >

> > > **

> > >

> > >

> > > Hello. After having worked with Get out of your mind for a while I have

> > > got the impression that ACT doesn't put much focus on helpful thoughts,

but

> > > more on dismissing unhelpful thoughts. It seems to me like ACT advocates

> > > no-thinking rather than thinking differently. Instead of thinking

> > > differently, ACT emphasizes to act differently.

> > > One should defuse from unhelpful thoughts, just observering and without

> > > judging them, instead of questioning them. But judging and questioning is

> > > not the same thing. Questioning is (or can be) constructive, because it

> > > makes one doubt thoughts that says " I cant do this " and other thoughts

that

> > > just doesn't help you.

> > >

> > > For example, lets say I meet a person who is very angry and bitter and I

> > > get the thought that this person is a terrible person. Now I could either

> > > just observe this thought and defuse from it if I find it unhelpful,or I

> > > could question it, and maybe find that there is a reason why this person

is

> > > so angry and bitter. Do you see the difference? In the first case I'm

> > > passive, just observing, in the other I'm more active and try to think

> > > differently.

> > > I have got the feeling that ACT put too much focus on our actions and too

> > > little on our thoughts. Isn't our attitude one of the most important

> > > factors for our level of happiness? Can't one act the " right " way but

still

> > > feel unhappy because of having the " wrong " attitude?

> > >

> > > This is just some thoughts that swirls around in my poor head. Anyone else

> > > who have thought about this matter? I havent started with the values

> > > chapters yet but am now working with willingness. Very thankful for

answers!

> > >

> > > //Leon

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Kate, your answer to Leon is quite reasonable but I just have a doubt. If you

let your mind question your thoughts (unhelpful ones) for too long, it would

become harder and harder to defuse from them because they will fight not to go

away so easily.. And you end up having an obsession that will haunt you until

you KNOW the reason why she hasn't aswered the phone.At least this is how my

mind works..The only approach that would help me in such a situation is not

question my thoughts and DO something that can capture my attention so much that

I just concentrate on what I'm doing and CAN'T follow my thoughts.

Let me know if it makes sense for you too,

Cheers, Delia

> >

> >

> >Another concrete example:

>

> I texted my newly met girlfriend and asked her if she wanted to see me tonight

and she hasn't answered yet. My mind starts to wander ( " What if she doesn't want

to see me? Blablabla " ). Here I could just defuse from it without arguing or

question the thought, or I could think rational about it ( " Well, maybe she

didn't hear her cellphone. Why wouldn't she want to see me? Things are going

great. " )

>

> >

> > To me it just seems absurd to " ignore " the content of some thoughts by

defusing from them. Some thoughts SHOULD be questioned, if you ask me. Of

course, it's a good thing if you are aware of the whole stream of thoughts and

are able to take a step back and just watch it flow. What I find odd is to just

observe and be passive. While that has its benefits, I think it is important to

question the content of some thoughts many times!

> >

> > Anyone who agrees?

> >

> > // Leon

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Detlef;

Your response resonates with me. I have been seeing a therapist for 2 years. She

has told me to " collect the data " when I have a problem that I am trying to

figure out. I said to her that if I collected the data based on my past

experiences than I would find that I have not dealt well with the problem that I

am facing. She then explained to collect NEW data based on trying new things

(committed action) with the ACT skills that I am learning. As I slowly did

things I was uncomfortable with, I noticed that other areas of my life that I

have struggled with also began to improve. New data to work from from a person

who totally avoided life with every conceivable tool I had available. Why did I

try new things? My values were/are telling me to. Also I know that if I

continue to live my life as I have been, then I will continue to suffer in the

same ways. Moving forward allows for more suffering and it also allows for

growth!

Unfortunately my therapist has moved. I found her to be brilliant and

compassionate and to truly care for me as a person. I am going through some

pretty significant growth and also Christmas was tough with family issues. Up to

last week, I could have picked up the phone and talked to my therapist and I am

feeling the void.

Now am I left with the question of if I want to start over again with someone

else. I keep thinking that the new therapist wont' be as good as the other and

our relationship wont' be as valuable and I have to start at ground zero. At

least now though I have data from past experiences that is nudging me towards

trying to give it a go with the new therapist.

Values + Committed Action = JOY!

Blessings!

" First we know that creative problem solving requires going thru a period of not

knowing. Experientially avoidant persons can't do that. Said in another way,

acceptance and defusion empowers creative problem solving. "

Experientially avoidant persons can't do a heck of a lot of things, and there's

the rub: how can one whose life has evolved to be experientially avoidant find

another way? I know that a book and/or words on a screen won't do it. I know

that talking to some well-credentialed persons won't

do it. I know that drugs of all kinds won't do it (although they may buy time).

What's left? Suicide?

Rhetorical question. I think I know the answer.

Cheers,

Detlef

[Guest guest]

Fuck! Maybe there is something to be hopeful about.http://www.salon.com/2011/12/27/therapists_revolt_against_psychiatrys_bible/?source=newsletterCheers,(still cheering) Detlef> > >> > > It's superficially true .... I'm not sure how deep it goes> > >> > > Let me explain> > >> > > For people who are suffering, "helpful thoughts" turn into> > > "thoughts that will alleviate my suffering" and there you are, back to> > > creating suffering.> > > So, no apologies, if you are suffering, get defusion / acceptance /> > > mindfulness *first*.> > > Get it so solid that there is no additional shoe to fall. Get it, full> > stop.> > >> > > The example you give is more like "how can I think more creatively."> > > However note one thing -- the specific example you give is "how can I> > > understand the other."> > > There ACT is strong I think. If you do your perspective taking /> > > transcendent sense of self / deictic work> > > you are working one strengthening thoughts. Not problems solving thoughts> > > -- perspective taking.> > > And the kind of "understanding" that will likely be most important is not> > > "figure it out" understanding --> > > its empathy and perspective taking. Do that and you "understand" in a> > much> > > deeper way> > >> > > Then we come down to problem solving. There is a role for it. Where is> > THAT> > > in ACT?> > >> > > Well, two places.> > >> > > First we know that creative problem solving requires going thru a period> > of> > > not knowing.> > > Experientially avoidant persons can't do that. Said in another way,> > > acceptance and defusion empowers creative problem solving.> > >> > > Second, problem solving shows up in the area of committed action.> > > If you want to think deeply about an area ACT processes will empower that> > > search> > > but the content knowledge about an area, you have to supply. Example:> > > controlled studies have shown that ACT helps world class> > > chess players play better chess. It is a super place to study what you> > > asked about> > > because chess is HIGHLY intellectual, and progress is extremely> > objective.> > > There are international ladders with a well worked out point system.> > > Now the rules of the game and the strategies of the masters etc etc> > > are not in ACT. But ACT will empower learning, retaining, and deploying> > > that knowledge.> > >> > > So if you want to think differently and deeply and creatively about a> > > domain,> > > ACT will help you leverage content knowledge in that domain> > >> > > But ACT itself does not contain strategies to think rationally etc.> > >> > > - S> > >> > > C. > > > Foundation Professor> > > Department of Psychology /298> > > University of Nevada> > > Reno, NV 89557-0062> > >> > > "Love isn't everything, it's the only thing"> > >> > > hayes@ or stevenchayes@> > > Fax: > > > Psych Department: > > > Contextual Change (you can use this number for messages if need be):> > (775)> > > 746-2013> > >> > > Blogs:> > > *Psychology Today* http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/get-out-your-mind> > > *Huffington Post * http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steven-c-hayes-phd> > >> > > If you want my vita, publications, PowerPoint slides, try my training> > > page:> > > http://contextualpsychology.org/steve_hayes> > > or you can try my website (it is semi-functional) stevenchayes.com> > >> > > If you have any questions about ACT or RFT (articles, AAQ information> > etc),> > > please first check the vast resources at website of the Association for> > > Contextual Behavioral Science (ACBS): www.contextualpsychology.org. You> > > have to register on the site to download things, but the cost is up to> > your> > > own values.> > >> > > If you are a professional or student and want to be part of the world> > wide> > > ACT discussion or RFT discussions, join the ACT list:> > > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy/join> > > or the RFT list:> > > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/relationalframetheory/join> > >> > > If you are a member of the public reading ACT self-help books (e.g., "Get> > > Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life" etc) and want to be part of that> > > conversation go to:> > > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join> > >> > >> > > On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 8:21 AM, soundofzen doesmybreathsmell@...:> > >> > > > **> > > >> > > >> > > > Hello. After having worked with Get out of your mind for a while I have> > > > got the impression that ACT doesn't put much focus on helpful> > thoughts, but> > > > more on dismissing unhelpful thoughts. It seems to me like ACT> > advocates> > > > no-thinking rather than thinking differently. Instead of thinking> > > > differently, ACT emphasizes to act differently.> > > > One should defuse from unhelpful thoughts, just observering and without> > > > judging them, instead of questioning them. But judging and questioning> > is> > > > not the same thing. Questioning is (or can be) constructive, because it> > > > makes one doubt thoughts that says "I cant do this" and other thoughts> > that> > > > just doesn't help you.> > > >> > > > For example, lets say I meet a person who is very angry and bitter and> > I> > > > get the thought that this person is a terrible person. Now I could> > either> > > > just observe this thought and defuse from it if I find it unhelpful,or> > I> > > > could question it, and maybe find that there is a reason why this> > person is> > > > so angry and bitter. Do you see the difference? In the first case I'm> > > > passive, just observing, in the other I'm more active and try to think> > > > differently.> > > > I have got the feeling that ACT put too much focus on our actions and> > too> > > > little on our thoughts. Isn't our attitude one of the most important> > > > factors for our level of happiness? Can't one act the "right" way but> > still> > > > feel unhappy because of having the "wrong" attitude?> > > >> > > > This is just some thoughts that swirls around in my poor head. Anyone> > else> > > > who have thought about this matter? I havent started with the values> > > > chapters yet but am now working with willingness. Very thankful for> > answers!> > > >> > > > //Leon> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> >> > > >>

[Guest guest]

> Another concrete example:

>

> I texted my newly met girlfriend and asked her if she wanted to see me tonight

and she hasn't answered yet. My mind starts to wander ( " What if she doesn't want

to see me? Blablabla " ). Here I could just defuse from it without arguing or

question the thought, or I could think rational about it ( " Well, maybe she

didn't hear her cellphone. Why wouldn't she want to see me? Things are going

great. " )

>

> To me it just seems absurd to " ignore " the content of some thoughts by

defusing from them. Some thoughts SHOULD be questioned, if you ask me. Of

course, it's a good thing if you are aware of the whole stream of thoughts and

are able to take a step back and just watch it flow. What I find odd is to just

observe and be passive. While that has its benefits, I think it is important to

question the content of some thoughts many times!

>

> Anyone who agrees?

>

> // Leon

>

Hi again, for me, if I had texted a new friend and they didn't respond I would

quickly spiral in to the madness (oh no. why didn't they write back? have I

screwed up a simple human contact again?, I will be isolated for the rest of my

life, etc)

so, for me, I SHOULD NOT question such an event...instant defusion work would be

started. maybe they write back, maybe not. I have nothing to think about it in

this present moment.

[Guest guest]

"In ACT, our main interest in a thought is not whether it's true or false, but whether it's helpful; that is, if we pay attention to this thought, will it help us create the life we want." The Happiness Trap, , p38, chapter 4."Also, it's important to remember the distinction between thoughts, images and sensations/feelings, because we deal with these internal experiences in different ways." Very generally, we defuse from unhelpful thoughts and images; and we accept/make room for unpleasant feelings and sensations. Same chapter in The Happiness Trap.If we are not fused with a thought then it is not necessary to defuse from it. If I'm too analytical about a thought I often end up fusing with it.BillTo: ACT_for_the_Public From: wandarzimm@...Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 15:56:56 +0000Subject: Re: Unhelpful thoughts / helpful thoughts

> Another concrete example:

>

> I texted my newly met girlfriend and asked her if she wanted to see me tonight and she hasn't answered yet. My mind starts to wander ("What if she doesn't want to see me? Blablabla"). Here I could just defuse from it without arguing or question the thought, or I could think rational about it ("Well, maybe she didn't hear her cellphone. Why wouldn't she want to see me? Things are going great.")

>

> To me it just seems absurd to "ignore" the content of some thoughts by defusing from them. Some thoughts SHOULD be questioned, if you ask me. Of course, it's a good thing if you are aware of the whole stream of thoughts and are able to take a step back and just watch it flow. What I find odd is to just observe and be passive. While that has its benefits, I think it is important to question the content of some thoughts many times!

>

> Anyone who agrees?

>

> // Leon

>

Hi again, for me, if I had texted a new friend and they didn't respond I would quickly spiral in to the madness (oh no. why didn't they write back? have I screwed up a simple human contact again?, I will be isolated for the rest of my life, etc)

so, for me, I SHOULD NOT question such an event...instant defusion work would be started. maybe they write back, maybe not. I have nothing to think about it in this present moment.

[Guest guest]

Hi Bill

There is a flaw in The Happiness Trap logic, as I think has been tossed about this forum a few times - you often don't know whether a thought is helpful or not unless you weigh it up, mull it over and engage with it. So you have to fuse with it, to a degree.

The trick is to engage with a thought as the curious scientist. And, once you are in, you then have to have the awareness to see that it is not helpful, and then to defuse. But that's quite a tricky skill to master. Especially since many of these thoughts come at a time of vulnerability or confusion, when my cognitive skills are often at their weakest.

The Happiness Trap logic is useful for thoughts you've seen before and can recognise. Mine tend to masquerade in new clothing, pretending to be new thoughts even though, underneath, they have the same root cause. But I'm getting better at spotting that.

x

To: ACT_for_the_Public <act_for_the_public > Sent: Wednesday, 28 December 2011, 18:50Subject: RE: Re: Unhelpful thoughts / helpful thoughts

"In ACT, our main interest in a thought is not whether it's true or false, but whether it's helpful; that is, if we pay attention to this thought, will it help us create the life we want." The Happiness Trap, , p38, chapter 4.

"Also, it's important to remember the distinction between thoughts, images and sensations/feelings, because we deal with these internal experiences in different ways." Very generally, we defuse from unhelpful thoughts and images; and we accept/make room for unpleasant feelings and sensations. Same chapter in The Happiness Trap.

If we are not fused with a thought then it is not necessary to defuse from it. If I'm too analytical about a thought I often end up fusing with it.

Bill

To: ACT_for_the_Public From: wandarzimm@...Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 15:56:56 +0000Subject: Re: Unhelpful thoughts / helpful thoughts

> Another concrete example: > > I texted my newly met girlfriend and asked her if she wanted to see me tonight and she hasn't answered yet. My mind starts to wander ("What if she doesn't want to see me? Blablabla"). Here I could just defuse from it without arguing or question the thought, or I could think rational about it ("Well, maybe she didn't hear her cellphone. Why wouldn't she want to see me? Things are going great.") > > To me it just seems absurd to "ignore" the content of some thoughts by defusing from them. Some thoughts SHOULD be questioned, if you ask me. Of course, it's a good thing if you are aware of the whole stream of thoughts and are able to take a step back and just watch it flow. What I find odd is to just observe and be passive. While that has its benefits, I think it is important to question the content of some thoughts many times! > > Anyone who

agrees? > > // Leon>Hi again, for me, if I had texted a new friend and they didn't respond I would quickly spiral in to the madness (oh no. why didn't they write back? have I screwed up a simple human contact again?, I will be isolated for the rest of my life, etc)so, for me, I SHOULD NOT question such an event...instant defusion work would be started. maybe they write back, maybe not. I have nothing to think about it in this present moment.

[Guest guest]

Having read more of the thread, this point has been made recently, more or less. Sorry to duplicate!

x

To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Wednesday, 28 December 2011, 21:36Subject: Re: Re: Unhelpful thoughts / helpful thoughts

Hi Bill

There is a flaw in The Happiness Trap logic, as I think has been tossed about this forum a few times - you often don't know whether a thought is helpful or not unless you weigh it up, mull it over and engage with it. So you have to fuse with it, to a degree.

The trick is to engage with a thought as the curious scientist. And, once you are in, you then have to have the awareness to see that it is not helpful, and then to defuse. But that's quite a tricky skill to master. Especially since many of these thoughts come at a time of vulnerability or confusion, when my cognitive skills are often at their weakest.

The Happiness Trap logic is useful for thoughts you've seen before and can recognise. Mine tend to masquerade in new clothing, pretending to be new thoughts even though, underneath, they have the same root cause. But I'm getting better at spotting that.

x

To: ACT_for_the_Public <act_for_the_public > Sent: Wednesday, 28 December 2011, 18:50Subject: RE: Re: Unhelpful thoughts / helpful thoughts

"In ACT, our main interest in a thought is not whether it's true or false, but whether it's helpful; that is, if we pay attention to this thought, will it help us create the life we want." The Happiness Trap, , p38, chapter 4.

"Also, it's important to remember the distinction between thoughts, images and sensations/feelings, because we deal with these internal experiences in different ways." Very generally, we defuse from unhelpful thoughts and images; and we accept/make room for unpleasant feelings and sensations. Same chapter in The Happiness Trap.

If we are not fused with a thought then it is not necessary to defuse from it. If I'm too analytical about a thought I often end up fusing with it.

Bill

To: ACT_for_the_Public From: wandarzimm@...Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 15:56:56 +0000Subject: Re: Unhelpful thoughts / helpful thoughts

> Another concrete example: > > I texted my newly met girlfriend and asked her if she wanted to see me tonight and she hasn't answered yet. My mind starts to wander ("What if she doesn't want to see me? Blablabla"). Here I could just defuse from it without arguing or question the thought, or I could think rational about it ("Well, maybe she didn't hear her cellphone. Why wouldn't she want to see me? Things are going great.") > > To me it just seems absurd to "ignore" the content of some thoughts by defusing from them. Some thoughts SHOULD be questioned, if you ask me. Of course, it's a good thing if you are aware of the whole stream of thoughts and are able to take a step back and just watch it flow. What I find odd is to just observe and be passive. While that has its benefits, I think it is important to question the content of some thoughts many times! > > Anyone who

agrees? > > // Leon>Hi again, for me, if I had texted a new friend and they didn't respond I would quickly spiral in to the madness (oh no. why didn't they write back? have I screwed up a simple human contact again?, I will be isolated for the rest of my life, etc)so, for me, I SHOULD NOT question such an event...instant defusion work would be started. maybe they write back, maybe not. I have nothing to think about it in this present moment.

[Guest guest]

Hakuna Matata BillTo: ACT_for_the_Public From: oscar.robson@...Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 22:00:42 +0000Subject: Re: Re: Unhelpful thoughts / helpful thoughts

Having read more of the thread, this point has been made recently, more or less. Sorry to duplicate!

x

To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Wednesday, 28 December 2011, 21:36Subject: Re: Re: Unhelpful thoughts / helpful thoughts

Hi Bill

There is a flaw in The Happiness Trap logic, as I think has been tossed about this forum a few times - you often don't know whether a thought is helpful or not unless you weigh it up, mull it over and engage with it. So you have to fuse with it, to a degree.

The trick is to engage with a thought as the curious scientist. And, once you are in, you then have to have the awareness to see that it is not helpful, and then to defuse. But that's quite a tricky skill to master. Especially since many of these thoughts come at a time of vulnerability or confusion, when my cognitive skills are often at their weakest.

The Happiness Trap logic is useful for thoughts you've seen before and can recognise. Mine tend to masquerade in new clothing, pretending to be new thoughts even though, underneath, they have the same root cause. But I'm getting better at spotting that.

x

To: ACT_for_the_Public <act_for_the_public > Sent: Wednesday, 28 December 2011, 18:50Subject: RE: Re: Unhelpful thoughts / helpful thoughts

"In ACT, our main interest in a thought is not whether it's true or false, but whether it's helpful; that is, if we pay attention to this thought, will it help us create the life we want." The Happiness Trap, , p38, chapter 4.

"Also, it's important to remember the distinction between thoughts, images and sensations/feelings, because we deal with these internal experiences in different ways." Very generally, we defuse from unhelpful thoughts and images; and we accept/make room for unpleasant feelings and sensations. Same chapter in The Happiness Trap.

If we are not fused with a thought then it is not necessary to defuse from it. If I'm too analytical about a thought I often end up fusing with it.

Bill

To: ACT_for_the_Public From: wandarzimm@...Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 15:56:56 +0000Subject: Re: Unhelpful thoughts / helpful thoughts

> Another concrete example: > > I texted my newly met girlfriend and asked her if she wanted to see me tonight and she hasn't answered yet. My mind starts to wander ("What if she doesn't want to see me? Blablabla"). Here I could just defuse from it without arguing or question the thought, or I could think rational about it ("Well, maybe she didn't hear her cellphone. Why wouldn't she want to see me? Things are going great.") > > To me it just seems absurd to "ignore" the content of some thoughts by defusing from them. Some thoughts SHOULD be questioned, if you ask me. Of course, it's a good thing if you are aware of the whole stream of thoughts and are able to take a step back and just watch it flow. What I find odd is to just observe and be passive. While that has its benefits, I think it is important to question the content of some thoughts many times! > > Anyone who

agrees? > > // Leon>Hi again, for me, if I had texted a new friend and they didn't respond I would quickly spiral in to the madness (oh no. why didn't they write back? have I screwed up a simple human contact again?, I will be isolated for the rest of my life, etc)so, for me, I SHOULD NOT question such an event...instant defusion work would be started. maybe they write back, maybe not. I have nothing to think about it in this present moment.

[Guest guest]

Detlef,

If you want to (alliteration alert) delve deeper into the devious and dastardly

doings that went on while writing the current DSM, try reading " Shyness: How

Normal Behavior Became a Sickness " by Lane

(http://tinyurl.com/cp4essp). It's a gripping and often disturbing read.

Cheers,

Stan

> > > >

> > > > It's superficially true .... I'm not sure how deep it goes

> > > >

> > > > Let me explain

> > > >

> > > > For people who are suffering, " helpful thoughts " turn into

> > > > " thoughts that will alleviate my suffering " and there you are,

> back to

> > > > creating suffering.

> > > > So, no apologies, if you are suffering, get defusion / acceptance

> /

> > > > mindfulness *first*.

> > > > Get it so solid that there is no additional shoe to fall. Get it,

> full

> > > stop.

> > > >

> > > > The example you give is more like " how can I think more

> creatively. "

> > > > However note one thing -- the specific example you give is " how

> can I

> > > > understand the other. "

> > > > There ACT is strong I think. If you do your perspective taking /

> > > > transcendent sense of self / deictic work

> > > > you are working one strengthening thoughts. Not problems solving

> thoughts

> > > > -- perspective taking.

> > > > And the kind of " understanding " that will likely be most important

> is not

> > > > " figure it out " understanding --

> > > > its empathy and perspective taking. Do that and you " understand "

> in a

> > > much

> > > > deeper way

> > > >

> > > > Then we come down to problem solving. There is a role for it.

> Where is

> > > THAT

> > > > in ACT?

> > > >

> > > > Well, two places.

> > > >

> > > > First we know that creative problem solving requires going thru a

> period

> > > of

> > > > not knowing.

> > > > Experientially avoidant persons can't do that. Said in another

> way,

> > > > acceptance and defusion empowers creative problem solving.

> > > >

> > > > Second, problem solving shows up in the area of committed action.

> > > > If you want to think deeply about an area ACT processes will

> empower that

> > > > search

> > > > but the content knowledge about an area, you have to supply.

> Example:

> > > > controlled studies have shown that ACT helps world class

> > > > chess players play better chess. It is a super place to study what

> you

> > > > asked about

> > > > because chess is HIGHLY intellectual, and progress is extremely

> > > objective.

> > > > There are international ladders with a well worked out point

> system.

> > > > Now the rules of the game and the strategies of the masters etc

> etc

> > > > are not in ACT. But ACT will empower learning, retaining, and

> deploying

> > > > that knowledge.

> > > >

> > > > So if you want to think differently and deeply and creatively

> about a

> > > > domain,

> > > > ACT will help you leverage content knowledge in that domain

> > > >

> > > > But ACT itself does not contain strategies to think rationally

> etc.

> > > >

> > > > - S

> > > >

> > > > C.

> > > > Foundation Professor

> > > > Department of Psychology /298

> > > > University of Nevada

> > > > Reno, NV 89557-0062

> > > >

> > > > " Love isn't everything, it's the only thing "

> > > >

> > > > hayes@ or stevenchayes@

> > > > Fax:

> > > > Psych Department:

> > > > Contextual Change (you can use this number for messages if need

> be):

> > > (775)

> > > > 746-2013

> > > >

> > > > Blogs:

> > > > *Psychology Today*

> http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/get-out-your-mind

> > > > *Huffington Post *

> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steven-c-hayes-phd

> > > >

> > > > If you want my vita, publications, PowerPoint slides, try my

> training

> > > > page:

> > > > http://contextualpsychology.org/steve_hayes

> > > > or you can try my website (it is semi-functional) stevenchayes.com

> > > >

> > > > If you have any questions about ACT or RFT (articles, AAQ

> information

> > > etc),

> > > > please first check the vast resources at website of the

> Association for

> > > > Contextual Behavioral Science (ACBS):

> www.contextualpsychology.org. You

> > > > have to register on the site to download things, but the cost is

> up to

> > > your

> > > > own values.

> > > >

> > > > If you are a professional or student and want to be part of the

> world

> > > wide

> > > > ACT discussion or RFT discussions, join the ACT list:

> > > >

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy/join

> > > > or the RFT list:

> > > > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/relationalframetheory/join

> > > >

> > > > If you are a member of the public reading ACT self-help books

> (e.g., " Get

> > > > Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life " etc) and want to be part of

> that

> > > > conversation go to:

> > > > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 8:21 AM, soundofzen doesmybreathsmell@:

> > > >

> > > > > **

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Hello. After having worked with Get out of your mind for a while

> I have

> > > > > got the impression that ACT doesn't put much focus on helpful

> > > thoughts, but

> > > > > more on dismissing unhelpful thoughts. It seems to me like ACT

> > > advocates

> > > > > no-thinking rather than thinking differently. Instead of

> thinking

> > > > > differently, ACT emphasizes to act differently.

> > > > > One should defuse from unhelpful thoughts, just observering and

> without

> > > > > judging them, instead of questioning them. But judging and

> questioning

> > > is

> > > > > not the same thing. Questioning is (or can be) constructive,

> because it

> > > > > makes one doubt thoughts that says " I cant do this " and other

> thoughts

> > > that

> > > > > just doesn't help you.

> > > > >

> > > > > For example, lets say I meet a person who is very angry and

> bitter and

> > > I

> > > > > get the thought that this person is a terrible person. Now I

> could

> > > either

> > > > > just observe this thought and defuse from it if I find it

> unhelpful,or

> > > I

> > > > > could question it, and maybe find that there is a reason why

> this

> > > person is

> > > > > so angry and bitter. Do you see the difference? In the first

> case I'm

> > > > > passive, just observing, in the other I'm more active and try to

> think

> > > > > differently.

> > > > > I have got the feeling that ACT put too much focus on our

> actions and

> > > too

> > > > > little on our thoughts. Isn't our attitude one of the most

> important

> > > > > factors for our level of happiness? Can't one act the " right "

> way but

> > > still

> > > > > feel unhappy because of having the " wrong " attitude?

> > > > >

> > > > > This is just some thoughts that swirls around in my poor head.

> Anyone

> > > else

> > > > > who have thought about this matter? I havent started with the

> values

> > > > > chapters yet but am now working with willingness. Very thankful

> for

> > > answers!

> > > > >

> > > > > //Leon

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>