Re: Unhelpful thoughts / helpful thoughts

[Guest guest]

Had to look that up: Hakuna matata is a Swahili phrase that is frequently translated as "no worries".

Nice one, Bill!Helena

To: "ACT_for_the_Public" <act_for_the_public >Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 5:28:07 PMSubject: RE: Re: Unhelpful thoughts / helpful thoughts

Hakuna Matata Bill

To: ACT_for_the_Public From: oscar.robson@...Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 22:00:42 +0000Subject: Re: Re: Unhelpful thoughts / helpful thoughts

Having read more of the thread, this point has been made recently, more or less. Sorry to duplicate!

x

To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Wednesday, 28 December 2011, 21:36Subject: Re: Re: Unhelpful thoughts / helpful thoughts

Hi Bill

There is a flaw in The Happiness Trap logic, as I think has been tossed about this forum a few times - you often don't know whether a thought is helpful or not unless you weigh it up, mull it over and engage with it. So you have to fuse with it, to a degree.

The trick is to engage with a thought as the curious scientist. And, once you are in, you then have to have the awareness to see that it is not helpful, and then to defuse. But that's quite a tricky skill to master. Especially since many of these thoughts come at a time of vulnerability or confusion, when my cognitive skills are often at their weakest.

The Happiness Trap logic is useful for thoughts you've seen before and can recognise. Mine tend to masquerade in new clothing, pretending to be new thoughts even though, underneath, they have the same root cause. But I'm getting better at spotting that.

x

To: ACT_for_the_Public <act_for_the_public > Sent: Wednesday, 28 December 2011, 18:50Subject: RE: Re: Unhelpful thoughts / helpful thoughts

"In ACT, our main interest in a thought is not whether it's true or false, but whether it's helpful; that is, if we pay attention to this thought, will it help us create the life we want." The Happiness Trap, , p38, chapter 4.

"Also, it's important to remember the distinction between thoughts, images and sensations/feelings, because we deal with these internal experiences in different ways." Very generally, we defuse from unhelpful thoughts and images; and we accept/make room for unpleasant feelings and sensations. Same chapter in The Happiness Trap.

If we are not fused with a thought then it is not necessary to defuse from it. If I'm too analytical about a thought I often end up fusing with it.

Bill

To: ACT_for_the_Public From: wandarzimm@...Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 15:56:56 +0000Subject: Re: Unhelpful thoughts / helpful thoughts

> Another concrete example: > > I texted my newly met girlfriend and asked her if she wanted to see me tonight and she hasn't answered yet. My mind starts to wander ("What if she doesn't want to see me? Blablabla"). Here I could just defuse from it without arguing or question the thought, or I could think rational about it ("Well, maybe she didn't hear her cellphone. Why wouldn't she want to see me? Things are going great.") > > To me it just seems absurd to "ignore" the content of some thoughts by defusing from them. Some thoughts SHOULD be questioned, if you ask me. Of course, it's a good thing if you are aware of the whole stream of thoughts and are able to take a step back and just watch it flow. What I find odd is to just observe and be passive. While that has its benefits, I think it is important to question the content of some thoughts many times! > > Anyone who agrees? > > // Leon>Hi again, for me, if I had texted a new friend and they didn't respond I would quickly spiral in to the madness (oh no. why didn't they write back? have I screwed up a simple human contact again?, I will be isolated for the rest of my life, etc)so, for me, I SHOULD NOT question such an event...instant defusion work would be started. maybe they write back, maybe not. I have nothing to think about it in this present moment.

[Guest guest]

>

> There is a flaw in The Happiness Trap logic, as I think has been tossed about

this forum a few times - you often don't know whether a thought is helpful or

not unless you weigh it up, mull it over and engage with it. So you have to

fuse with it, to a degree.

>

> The trick is to engage with a thought as the curious scientist. And, once you

are in, you then have to have the awareness to see that it is not helpful, and

then to defuse. But that's quite a tricky skill to master. Especially since

many of these thoughts come at a time of vulnerability or confusion, when my

cognitive skills are often at their weakest.

> The Happiness Trap logic is useful for thoughts you've seen before and can

recognise. Mine tend to masquerade in new clothing, pretending to be new

thoughts even though, underneath, they have the same root cause. But I'm

getting better at spotting that.

>

> x

That's so true, seems like a good strategy to me.

Thanks everyone for your answers!

Leon

[Guest guest]

One of the things that has helped me with determining if defusion is indicated

is full on looking and listening for that sort of grab I get in my stomach.

Which on some days can be fairly often. It's usually an indicator I'm in a hard

place and not allowing myself to compassionately be there without adding on a

bunch of stuff to that hard place. Sometimes that's enough, to full on stop and

honor that hard place. So I suppose that is a bit of defusion tucked in there

with the acceptance..because I am naming the grab: " oh, here comes a hard

place " . So, funny, I got into this a while back with Russ and I see now that

acceptance and defusion really do overlap. (think I had a strong opinion they

didn't and was determined to be right about that). And then there is mindfulness

in there too, breathing and being present with the painful observation. So

really appreciate what Steve said about getting those three full stop for those

of suffering.

With regard to the example here, the suffering around people not responding is a

deep one that connects up to abandonment and rejection stuff and it shows up

everywhere since we naturally care about being connected, being accepted, known,

welcomed. Looking to answer why they didn't (respond) is only partially useful

for me and not at all useful if I'm looking at why as a way to feel better or

looking to have the pain that accompanies noticing " not responding " be removed.

Yeah, it's helpful to realize there could be a hundred reasons that have nothing

to do with me as this puts things in perspective. And often enough it's not

about me..I mean gee, the world doesn't revolve around me, much as I may imagine

it does!

But what's truly helpful is to also consider it might be very well about me and

that's also okay. It stings some, but it's okay. And then if you follow that

thru, you eventually come to see you'll never know for sure. And if you're like

me, you may want to then back up to that place of sadness, of not knowing, of

longing for a response, not getting one, wanting to know why in the heck she

didn't respond (Even if she provides a reason, and that brings some relief, what

about the next time and then next time?). But do it gently, with kindness for

yourself. You may be amazed at what else is there in that place.

Best,

Terry

> >

>

> > There is a flaw in The Happiness Trap logic, as I think has been tossed

about this forum a few times - you often don't know whether a thought is

helpful or not unless you weigh it up, mull it over and engage with it. So you

have to fuse with it, to a degree.

> >

> > The trick is to engage with a thought as the curious scientist. And, once

you are in, you then have to have the awareness to see that it is not helpful,

and then to defuse. But that's quite a tricky skill to master. Especially

since many of these thoughts come at a time of vulnerability or confusion, when

my cognitive skills are often at their weakest.

> > The Happiness Trap logic is useful for thoughts you've seen before and can

recognise. Mine tend to masquerade in new clothing, pretending to be new

thoughts even though, underneath, they have the same root cause. But I'm

getting better at spotting that.

> >

> > x

>

>

> That's so true, seems like a good strategy to me.

>

>

>

> Thanks everyone for your answers!

>

> Leon

>