Re: Re: Mindfully Bypassing Feeling, Contacting Prior Insight

[Guest guest]

I think "get me alone" here doesn't mean quiet contemplation time which, as you suggest is a good thing. It's about turning your back on your program and support network until you're isolated and vulnerable. Jim

BTW, have not heard anyone say the disease wants to get me alone so it will kill me. I have heard the disease wants me to believe I can only do it alone. And hear lots of encouragement to create alone time in a productive healing way--quiet time: prayer, journaling, meditation, breathing.

> >

> > > **

> > >

> > >

> > > ***This is a new version of the previous essay I posted on "Faith." In

> > > response to feedback, I have taken that word out. Thanks to all who had

> > > comments, and please share any new comments you might have.***

> > >

> > >

> > > "Are sense and feelings suitable to judge of the dispensations and designs

> > > of God by? Can their testimony be safely relied on? Is it safe to argue

> > > thus: `If God had any love for my soul, I should feel it now, as well as in

> > > former times; but I cannot feel it, therefore it is gone?' May you not as

> > > well conclude, when the sun is invisible to you, that it has ceased to

> > > exist?"

> > > — *Rev. Flavel*, 1627 - 1691

> > >

> > > *Abstract*: When our feelings are distorted by psychological forces

> > > such as depression and infatuation, and we know this is happening, we often

> > > try, through an act of will, to counteract their persuasiveness and

> > > believability, render them less compelling. But this doesn't work. To

> > > transcend them, we need to understand them from a higher level, as

> > > unreliable outgrowths of a specific state of mind, rather than as signposts

> > > to reality. We need to expect them to be persuasive and believable, let

> > > them be such, and yet proceed to not believe them even despite. We need to

> > > bypass them, dismiss them in favor of our prior, more reliable insights,

> > > those realized during periods in which we were not under their delusive

> > > grasp.

> > >

> > >

> > > When I was depressed, I would experience certain intense emotions. These

> > > emotions would paint a somber, tragic picture of my life. They would tell

> > > me that at my core I was weak, needy, pathetic, inferior, alone, unlike

> > > everyone else. They would remind me of the optimistic hopes and dreams

> > > that I had as a child, and emphasize how ashamed that child would have been

> > > if someone had shown him how his life would eventually turn out: the sad

> > > disappointment that he would eventually become. I had let myself down.

> > >

> > > In the wiser, more rational parts of my being, I knew that these emotions

> > > were just the dramatic delusions of a depressed mind. But they *felt*real. Because they felt real, they would break me down.

> > >

> > > I tried to reason with the emotions—"C'mon, you have no reason to believe

> > > these things about yourself"—but that rarely worked. The emotions felt too

> > > true not to believe. Ironically, my effort to argue them away, to stop

> > > them from feeling so true and justified, would aggravate them, make them

> > > more intense. I would end up in an exhausting and counterproductive

> > > struggle with my own mind, a struggle that I would consistently lose.

> > >

> > > The depression would get worse when I was under stress or deprived of

> > > sleep. One day, during a period of heavy stress at work, and after a

> > > particularly unpleasant episode of insomnia, I came to the following

> > > realization:

> > >

> > > "I know, in the calmer parts of my mind, where I am wiser and more

> > > rational, that these emotions are just symptoms of a temporary state of

> > > mind. The neurochemicals in my brain are firing them off not because they

> > > are true, or because they reflect on me, but because I'm stressed out. I

> > > got no sleep last night. As a result, my mind is extremely sensitive,

> > > prone to charged emotional reactions."

> > >

> > > "The problem is that even though I know this, I can't seem to make the

> > > emotions stop feeling so true. I can't seem to weaken or undo their

> > > persuasiveness and believability. They have me sold, hook line and sinker."

> > >

> > > Ultimately, I concluded that there was nothing I could really do about the

> > > emotions. They were there, they were going to continue to arise, and when

> > > they did, they were going to feel incredibly true and right. So I took a

> > > different approach. I gave up on the attempt to change how they felt. I

> > > gave up on the effort to counteract their allure, their persuasiveness,

> > > their believability. I started to *expect* them to feel alluring,

> > > persuasive, believable—that was part of the trick, how they operated. This

> > > expectation reframed my understanding of them. They lost their ability to

> > > convince me, even as they continued to feel convincing. It was as if my

> > > mind, given its past experiences, was able to get a few steps ahead of

> > > them, and take them out of the circuit through which they would otherwise

> > > drive my beliefs.

> > >

> > > I remembered the many times that I had felt the emotions and bought into

> > > them, only to realize, after the depressed state of mind had lifted, that I

> > > had been sucked into a delusion. "Wow, where did that come from?" I

> > > embraced what I had seen so clearly in previous undeluded states of mind:

> > > that I was neither good nor bad, a success nor a failure, but just a person

> > > struggling with circumstances, doing what anyone else in my shoes would

> > > do. I contacted this insight and went with it, even as the emotions

> > > themselves continued to bubble up. Rather than fight to neuter the

> > > emotions, I let them continue to be alluring, persuasive, believable. I

> > > stepped back and raised my awareness to a level at which I could understand

> > > their allure, persuasiveness and believability in a different light, a

> > > level at which I could gently dismiss them even as they continued to feel

> > > that way to me.

> > >

> > > Surprisingly, in response to this approach, the emotions gradually lost

> > > their intensity. I was able to see past them and confidently move on.

> > >

> > > What I employed was a type of mindfulness, a way to transcend the mind's

> > > present delusions by accessing its prior insights. In the piece that

> > > follows, I am going to discuss and clarify this form of mindfulness, and

> > > hopefully give the reader tools to put it into practice.

> > > *

> > > *

> > > *Mindfully Bypassing Feeling, Contacting Prior Insight*

> > >

> > > Normally, when we believe something, some thought, we believe it because

> > > our feelings tell us that it is true. It *feels* true. We follow that

> > > feeling. The problem is that our feelings are often distorted, warped by

> > > the many variants of mental delusion: depression, infatuation, anxiety, the

> > > list goes on.

> > >

> > > When we realize that our feelings are distorted, what do we instinctively

> > > try to do? We try to "fix" them. We argue with them, plead with them,

> > > suppress them, try *not* to feel them, try to feel other more palatable

> > > feelings in their place. But this approach does not work. It rattles the

> > > mind and leaves the feelings that much more entrenched.

> > >

> > > When our belief system operates on their terms, consults them for

> > > guidance, direction, they always win. They always suck us in. What we

> > > need to do, then, is bypass them, short-circuit them, take them out of the

> > > process through which they govern our beliefs. They are, after all, broken

> > > aspects of our mental machinery.

> > >

> > > Now, this does not mean that we need to change how they feel. Again, we *

> > > can't* change how they feel. Regardless of what we try to do with them,

> > > they will always feel alluring, persuasive, believable to us. What we need

> > > to do is process the way they feel—process their allure, persuasiveness and

> > > believability—in a different light. We need to *expect* them to feel

> > > alluring, persuasive and belieavable. We need to "chalk up" that quality

> > > to its cause: the delusion. Then, we can dismiss it.

> > >

> > > Instead of embracing their messages, we need to embrace what we know in

> > > the wiser, more rational parts of our minds. We need to contact the

> > > insights that we've gained by going through the delusions and then having

> > > them lift, seeing after the fact that they were *just* delusions. In a

> > > type of leap, we need to go with those insights, without demanding that our

> > > feelings confirm them.

> > >

> > > Consider the example of a person that experiences bouts of depression

> > > followed by periods of mental normalcy. The person cycles through the

> > > following states of mind:

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > (a) Normal: emotions calm, senses clear.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > (aa) Depression hits: experiences tragic, judgment-laden, guilt-ridden,

> > > self-persecutional emotions. View of world and view of self painfully

> > > distorted.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ( Depression lifts: emotions calm, senses regained, clarity and insight

> > > emerge, "What was that all about?"

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > (bb) Depression returns: experiences tragic, judgment-laden, guilt-ridden,

> > > self-persecutional emotions. View of world and view of self painfully

> > > distorted by emotions.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > © Depression lifts: emotions calm, senses regained, clarity and insight

> > > emerge, what was that all about?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > (cc) Depression returns: experience tragic, judgment-laden, guilt-ridden,

> > > self-persecutional emotions. View of world and view of self painfully

> > > distorted by emotions.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > The question is, what should a person in (cc) do? She can't fight the

> > > emotions. They are too powerful. Regardless of her efforts, they will

> > > continue to feel persuasive and believable to her when she considers them.

> > > What she needs to do is shift the way that she sees them. She needs to see

> > > them as feelings, mental events, outgrowths of a depressed state of mind.

> > > She needs to *expect* them to feel persuasive and believable precisely

> > > because of what they are. She needs to "chalk them up" to their cause, and

> > > then dismiss them. In their place, she needs to recall the prior insights

> > > that she gained in ( and ©, where she was able to see the depression

> > > lift, the lie exposed as such. She needs to go with those prior insights,

> > > without demanding confirmation from her presently distorted state of mind.

> > >

> > >

> > > "I know these feelings are just delusions. I was able to clearly see that

> > > fact when I was not under the throes of this mess. So that's what I'm

> > > going to go with, I'm going to go with that prior knowledge, *even though*right now the feelings feel so incredibly compelling to me, and

> > > *even as* I relax on them and allow them to feel that way. Moving on…."

> > >

> > >

> > > This shift is very difficult to clearly describe, and so if it confuses

> > > you, don't worry. It confuses *most* people. Rather than try hard to

> > > put it into practice in your life right now, just let it be a fuzzy idea,

> > > something that may eventually blossom into a deeper realization.

> > >

> > > *

> > > *

> > >

> > > *Two Conditions*

> > >

> > >

> > > The approach described above works particularly well when the following

> > > two conditions are met:

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > (1) *Basis* – obviously, there has to be a prior insight. To use the

> > > example of depression, you've been through it before, you've seen it and

> > > been fooled by it many times. It is for that very reason that you are able

> > > to contact your prior insights and avoid being fooled again.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > But if there are no prior insights, if you are someone experiencing

> > > depression for the first time, then there is nothing for you to contact.

> > > Your world has suddenly shifted, but you don't have the experience to know

> > > that it's all in your mind. Thus, you will not be able to make much use of

> > > this approach.

> > >

> > > (2) *Subjective with No Real-World Impact* – the approach is especially

> > > powerful when applied to something that is subjective and that has no

> > > real-world impact. To again use the example of depression, the claims that

> > > the depression makes—that you are pathetic, inferior, worthless, hopeless,

> > > whatever—are subjective value judgments. They are opinions, not facts, and

> > > therefore they *cannot be true* in the literal sense. Whether they are

> > > taken to be true has no impact on any aspect of reality. The only thing

> > > that is impacted is how you feel.

> > >

> > > The approach works best with things that are subjective and that lack a

> > > real-world impact because the mind doesn't have as much reason to doubt

> > > them and worry about them. If you try to contact prior insights with

> > > respect to issues that have a real-world impact, you could be wrong. Your

> > > mind will recognize this risk and may express doubts. If you are wrong, it

> > > will matter, and so your mind will stay on the issue.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > But if you are working with something about which you can't be wrong,

> > > something that is subjective and that doesn't impact anything, your mind

> > > has no reason to worry. You can set aside the worries, let them go,

> > > because they have no way to come back and haunt you. The issue is entirely

> > > mental.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Depression, and its close cousin romantic infatuation, where a person gets

> > > caught up in grand negative delusions about himself, or grand positive

> > > delusions about another person, meet these conditions perfectly. That is

> > > why the approach works very well as a way to transcend them. The approach

> > > also works for anxiety and OCD, but not as well, because the mind will

> > > always come back and ask "What if you're wrong, what if you're missing

> > > something?" In the case of depression and infatuation, you *can't* be

> > > wrong, and that simplifies things significantly.

> > >

> > > *

> > > *

> > >

> > > *Summary*

> > >

> > >

> > > To summarize, if you are suffering from depression (or infatuation, or

> > > anxiety, or some other form of mental delusion), and you are experiencing

> > > the associated feelings of shame and persecution, try this. See if you can

> > > recollect on and follow your prior insight, the realization that that these

> > > feelings are just feelings, just outgrowths of a depressed state of mind,

> > > not truth or reality. See if you can take that approach *even as* you

> > > relax on the feelings and let them continue to feel persuasive to you. See

> > > if you can understand and anticipate their persuasive aspect, "chalk it up"

> > > to its cause, without trying to challenge or change it. You may not be

> > > able to, and in that cases, other approaches may be more helpful. But if

> > > you can, you may find that the feelings lose their ability to dominate and

> > > oppress you, and that you are able to rise above them.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,In program, the disease is thought of as the alcohol and the "ism" and the alcohol is considered the smaller part of it. The "ism" is the complex of mental twists that fuel dependence and other unhealthy self-centered (I say hard-wired survival) behavior. Jim

Hi Terry,

My dis-ease wants me dead for sure (alcohol just emphasises it). My first suicide attempt was at 12 years old when death became an object of pleasure that I might have some control over (I don't though, as it turns out). But it can't have me anymore because "It's just a thought"!

Living large... :-)

> > >

> > > > **

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ***This is a new version of the previous essay I posted on "Faith." In

> > > > response to feedback, I have taken that word out. Thanks to all who had

> > > > comments, and please share any new comments you might have.***

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > "Are sense and feelings suitable to judge of the dispensations and designs

> > > > of God by? Can their testimony be safely relied on? Is it safe to argue

> > > > thus: `If God had any love for my soul, I should feel it now, as well as in

> > > > former times; but I cannot feel it, therefore it is gone?' May you not as

> > > > well conclude, when the sun is invisible to you, that it has ceased to

> > > > exist?"

> > > > — *Rev. Flavel*, 1627 - 1691

> > > >

> > > > *Abstract*: When our feelings are distorted by psychological forces

> > > > such as depression and infatuation, and we know this is happening, we often

> > > > try, through an act of will, to counteract their persuasiveness and

> > > > believability, render them less compelling. But this doesn't work. To

> > > > transcend them, we need to understand them from a higher level, as

> > > > unreliable outgrowths of a specific state of mind, rather than as signposts

> > > > to reality. We need to expect them to be persuasive and believable, let

> > > > them be such, and yet proceed to not believe them even despite. We need to

> > > > bypass them, dismiss them in favor of our prior, more reliable insights,

> > > > those realized during periods in which we were not under their delusive

> > > > grasp.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > When I was depressed, I would experience certain intense emotions. These

> > > > emotions would paint a somber, tragic picture of my life. They would tell

> > > > me that at my core I was weak, needy, pathetic, inferior, alone, unlike

> > > > everyone else. They would remind me of the optimistic hopes and dreams

> > > > that I had as a child, and emphasize how ashamed that child would have been

> > > > if someone had shown him how his life would eventually turn out: the sad

> > > > disappointment that he would eventually become. I had let myself down.

> > > >

> > > > In the wiser, more rational parts of my being, I knew that these emotions

> > > > were just the dramatic delusions of a depressed mind. But they *felt*real. Because they felt real, they would break me down.

> > > >

> > > > I tried to reason with the emotions—"C'mon, you have no reason to believe

> > > > these things about yourself"—but that rarely worked. The emotions felt too

> > > > true not to believe. Ironically, my effort to argue them away, to stop

> > > > them from feeling so true and justified, would aggravate them, make them

> > > > more intense. I would end up in an exhausting and counterproductive

> > > > struggle with my own mind, a struggle that I would consistently lose.

> > > >

> > > > The depression would get worse when I was under stress or deprived of

> > > > sleep. One day, during a period of heavy stress at work, and after a

> > > > particularly unpleasant episode of insomnia, I came to the following

> > > > realization:

> > > >

> > > > "I know, in the calmer parts of my mind, where I am wiser and more

> > > > rational, that these emotions are just symptoms of a temporary state of

> > > > mind. The neurochemicals in my brain are firing them off not because they

> > > > are true, or because they reflect on me, but because I'm stressed out. I

> > > > got no sleep last night. As a result, my mind is extremely sensitive,

> > > > prone to charged emotional reactions."

> > > >

> > > > "The problem is that even though I know this, I can't seem to make the

> > > > emotions stop feeling so true. I can't seem to weaken or undo their

> > > > persuasiveness and believability. They have me sold, hook line and sinker."

> > > >

> > > > Ultimately, I concluded that there was nothing I could really do about the

> > > > emotions. They were there, they were going to continue to arise, and when

> > > > they did, they were going to feel incredibly true and right. So I took a

> > > > different approach. I gave up on the attempt to change how they felt. I

> > > > gave up on the effort to counteract their allure, their persuasiveness,

> > > > their believability. I started to *expect* them to feel alluring,

> > > > persuasive, believable—that was part of the trick, how they operated. This

> > > > expectation reframed my understanding of them. They lost their ability to

> > > > convince me, even as they continued to feel convincing. It was as if my

> > > > mind, given its past experiences, was able to get a few steps ahead of

> > > > them, and take them out of the circuit through which they would otherwise

> > > > drive my beliefs.

> > > >

> > > > I remembered the many times that I had felt the emotions and bought into

> > > > them, only to realize, after the depressed state of mind had lifted, that I

> > > > had been sucked into a delusion. "Wow, where did that come from?" I

> > > > embraced what I had seen so clearly in previous undeluded states of mind:

> > > > that I was neither good nor bad, a success nor a failure, but just a person

> > > > struggling with circumstances, doing what anyone else in my shoes would

> > > > do. I contacted this insight and went with it, even as the emotions

> > > > themselves continued to bubble up. Rather than fight to neuter the

> > > > emotions, I let them continue to be alluring, persuasive, believable. I

> > > > stepped back and raised my awareness to a level at which I could understand

> > > > their allure, persuasiveness and believability in a different light, a

> > > > level at which I could gently dismiss them even as they continued to feel

> > > > that way to me.

> > > >

> > > > Surprisingly, in response to this approach, the emotions gradually lost

> > > > their intensity. I was able to see past them and confidently move on.

> > > >

> > > > What I employed was a type of mindfulness, a way to transcend the mind's

> > > > present delusions by accessing its prior insights. In the piece that

> > > > follows, I am going to discuss and clarify this form of mindfulness, and

> > > > hopefully give the reader tools to put it into practice.

> > > > *

> > > > *

> > > > *Mindfully Bypassing Feeling, Contacting Prior Insight*

> > > >

> > > > Normally, when we believe something, some thought, we believe it because

> > > > our feelings tell us that it is true. It *feels* true. We follow that

> > > > feeling. The problem is that our feelings are often distorted, warped by

> > > > the many variants of mental delusion: depression, infatuation, anxiety, the

> > > > list goes on.

> > > >

> > > > When we realize that our feelings are distorted, what do we instinctively

> > > > try to do? We try to "fix" them. We argue with them, plead with them,

> > > > suppress them, try *not* to feel them, try to feel other more palatable

> > > > feelings in their place. But this approach does not work. It rattles the

> > > > mind and leaves the feelings that much more entrenched.

> > > >

> > > > When our belief system operates on their terms, consults them for

> > > > guidance, direction, they always win. They always suck us in. What we

> > > > need to do, then, is bypass them, short-circuit them, take them out of the

> > > > process through which they govern our beliefs. They are, after all, broken

> > > > aspects of our mental machinery.

> > > >

> > > > Now, this does not mean that we need to change how they feel. Again, we *

> > > > can't* change how they feel. Regardless of what we try to do with them,

> > > > they will always feel alluring, persuasive, believable to us. What we need

> > > > to do is process the way they feel—process their allure, persuasiveness and

> > > > believability—in a different light. We need to *expect* them to feel

> > > > alluring, persuasive and belieavable. We need to "chalk up" that quality

> > > > to its cause: the delusion. Then, we can dismiss it.

> > > >

> > > > Instead of embracing their messages, we need to embrace what we know in

> > > > the wiser, more rational parts of our minds. We need to contact the

> > > > insights that we've gained by going through the delusions and then having

> > > > them lift, seeing after the fact that they were *just* delusions. In a

> > > > type of leap, we need to go with those insights, without demanding that our

> > > > feelings confirm them.

> > > >

> > > > Consider the example of a person that experiences bouts of depression

> > > > followed by periods of mental normalcy. The person cycles through the

> > > > following states of mind:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > (a) Normal: emotions calm, senses clear.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > (aa) Depression hits: experiences tragic, judgment-laden, guilt-ridden,

> > > > self-persecutional emotions. View of world and view of self painfully

> > > > distorted.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ( Depression lifts: emotions calm, senses regained, clarity and insight

> > > > emerge, "What was that all about?"

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > (bb) Depression returns: experiences tragic, judgment-laden, guilt-ridden,

> > > > self-persecutional emotions. View of world and view of self painfully

> > > > distorted by emotions.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > © Depression lifts: emotions calm, senses regained, clarity and insight

> > > > emerge, what was that all about?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > (cc) Depression returns: experience tragic, judgment-laden, guilt-ridden,

> > > > self-persecutional emotions. View of world and view of self painfully

> > > > distorted by emotions.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > The question is, what should a person in (cc) do? She can't fight the

> > > > emotions. They are too powerful. Regardless of her efforts, they will

> > > > continue to feel persuasive and believable to her when she considers them.

> > > > What she needs to do is shift the way that she sees them. She needs to see

> > > > them as feelings, mental events, outgrowths of a depressed state of mind.

> > > > She needs to *expect* them to feel persuasive and believable precisely

> > > > because of what they are. She needs to "chalk them up" to their cause, and

> > > > then dismiss them. In their place, she needs to recall the prior insights

> > > > that she gained in ( and ©, where she was able to see the depression

> > > > lift, the lie exposed as such. She needs to go with those prior insights,

> > > > without demanding confirmation from her presently distorted state of mind.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > "I know these feelings are just delusions. I was able to clearly see that

> > > > fact when I was not under the throes of this mess. So that's what I'm

> > > > going to go with, I'm going to go with that prior knowledge, *even though*right now the feelings feel so incredibly compelling to me, and

> > > > *even as* I relax on them and allow them to feel that way. Moving on…."

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > This shift is very difficult to clearly describe, and so if it confuses

> > > > you, don't worry. It confuses *most* people. Rather than try hard to

> > > > put it into practice in your life right now, just let it be a fuzzy idea,

> > > > something that may eventually blossom into a deeper realization.

> > > >

> > > > *

> > > > *

> > > >

> > > > *Two Conditions*

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > The approach described above works particularly well when the following

> > > > two conditions are met:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > (1) *Basis* – obviously, there has to be a prior insight. To use the

> > > > example of depression, you've been through it before, you've seen it and

> > > > been fooled by it many times. It is for that very reason that you are able

> > > > to contact your prior insights and avoid being fooled again.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > But if there are no prior insights, if you are someone experiencing

> > > > depression for the first time, then there is nothing for you to contact.

> > > > Your world has suddenly shifted, but you don't have the experience to know

> > > > that it's all in your mind. Thus, you will not be able to make much use of

> > > > this approach.

> > > >

> > > > (2) *Subjective with No Real-World Impact* – the approach is especially

> > > > powerful when applied to something that is subjective and that has no

> > > > real-world impact. To again use the example of depression, the claims that

> > > > the depression makes—that you are pathetic, inferior, worthless, hopeless,

> > > > whatever—are subjective value judgments. They are opinions, not facts, and

> > > > therefore they *cannot be true* in the literal sense. Whether they are

> > > > taken to be true has no impact on any aspect of reality. The only thing

> > > > that is impacted is how you feel.

> > > >

> > > > The approach works best with things that are subjective and that lack a

> > > > real-world impact because the mind doesn't have as much reason to doubt

> > > > them and worry about them. If you try to contact prior insights with

> > > > respect to issues that have a real-world impact, you could be wrong. Your

> > > > mind will recognize this risk and may express doubts. If you are wrong, it

> > > > will matter, and so your mind will stay on the issue.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > But if you are working with something about which you can't be wrong,

> > > > something that is subjective and that doesn't impact anything, your mind

> > > > has no reason to worry. You can set aside the worries, let them go,

> > > > because they have no way to come back and haunt you. The issue is entirely

> > > > mental.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Depression, and its close cousin romantic infatuation, where a person gets

> > > > caught up in grand negative delusions about himself, or grand positive

> > > > delusions about another person, meet these conditions perfectly. That is

> > > > why the approach works very well as a way to transcend them. The approach

> > > > also works for anxiety and OCD, but not as well, because the mind will

> > > > always come back and ask "What if you're wrong, what if you're missing

> > > > something?" In the case of depression and infatuation, you *can't* be

> > > > wrong, and that simplifies things significantly.

> > > >

> > > > *

> > > > *

> > > >

> > > > *Summary*

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > To summarize, if you are suffering from depression (or infatuation, or

> > > > anxiety, or some other form of mental delusion), and you are experiencing

> > > > the associated feelings of shame and persecution, try this. See if you can

> > > > recollect on and follow your prior insight, the realization that that these

> > > > feelings are just feelings, just outgrowths of a depressed state of mind,

> > > > not truth or reality. See if you can take that approach *even as* you

> > > > relax on the feelings and let them continue to feel persuasive to you. See

> > > > if you can understand and anticipate their persuasive aspect, "chalk it up"

> > > > to its cause, without trying to challenge or change it. You may not be

> > > > able to, and in that cases, other approaches may be more helpful. But if

> > > > you can, you may find that the feelings lose their ability to dominate and

> > > > oppress you, and that you are able to rise above them.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,It's definitely not ACT-based, as it was first formulated in 1938.And it doesn't set great store by the power of individual thinking skills to overcome the obsession since it recognizes that the " ism " is in its words, " ...cunning, baffling and powerful. Without help it is too much for us... "  

Hence the need for an in-person support network.I found a tremendous feeling of freedom and relief  when I realized I didn't have to keep matching wits with the disease and losing.

Hope that helps,Best,Jim

 

Hmmm, interesting Jim,

So the word 'alcohol-ism' is used to represent the disease and all the destructive thinking that leads to dysfunctional behaviours. So the lesson is first an attitude/perspective taking about the consumption of the alcohol and second, the thinking skills. Do you have anymore on the thinking skills? Or is it basically ACT based?

> > > > >

> > > > > > **

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ***This is a new version of the previous essay I posted on " Faith. " In

> > > > > > response to feedback, I have taken that word out. Thanks to all who had

> > > > > > comments, and please share any new comments you might have.***

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > " Are sense and feelings suitable to judge of the dispensations and designs

> > > > > > of God by? Can their testimony be safely relied on? Is it safe to argue

> > > > > > thus: `If God had any love for my soul, I should feel it now, as well as in

> > > > > > former times; but I cannot feel it, therefore it is gone?' May you not as

> > > > > > well conclude, when the sun is invisible to you, that it has ceased to

> > > > > > exist? "

> > > > > > — *Rev. Flavel*, 1627 - 1691

> > > > > >

> > > > > > *Abstract*: When our feelings are distorted by psychological forces

> > > > > > such as depression and infatuation, and we know this is happening, we often

> > > > > > try, through an act of will, to counteract their persuasiveness and

> > > > > > believability, render them less compelling. But this doesn't work. To

> > > > > > transcend them, we need to understand them from a higher level, as

> > > > > > unreliable outgrowths of a specific state of mind, rather than as signposts

> > > > > > to reality. We need to expect them to be persuasive and believable, let

> > > > > > them be such, and yet proceed to not believe them even despite. We need to

> > > > > > bypass them, dismiss them in favor of our prior, more reliable insights,

> > > > > > those realized during periods in which we were not under their delusive

> > > > > > grasp.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > When I was depressed, I would experience certain intense emotions. These

> > > > > > emotions would paint a somber, tragic picture of my life. They would tell

> > > > > > me that at my core I was weak, needy, pathetic, inferior, alone, unlike

> > > > > > everyone else. They would remind me of the optimistic hopes and dreams

> > > > > > that I had as a child, and emphasize how ashamed that child would have been

> > > > > > if someone had shown him how his life would eventually turn out: the sad

> > > > > > disappointment that he would eventually become. I had let myself down.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In the wiser, more rational parts of my being, I knew that these emotions

> > > > > > were just the dramatic delusions of a depressed mind. But they *felt*real. Because they felt real, they would break me down.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I tried to reason with the emotions— " C'mon, you have no reason to believe

> > > > > > these things about yourself " —but that rarely worked. The emotions felt too

> > > > > > true not to believe. Ironically, my effort to argue them away, to stop

> > > > > > them from feeling so true and justified, would aggravate them, make them

> > > > > > more intense. I would end up in an exhausting and counterproductive

> > > > > > struggle with my own mind, a struggle that I would consistently lose.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The depression would get worse when I was under stress or deprived of

> > > > > > sleep. One day, during a period of heavy stress at work, and after a

> > > > > > particularly unpleasant episode of insomnia, I came to the following

> > > > > > realization:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > " I know, in the calmer parts of my mind, where I am wiser and more

> > > > > > rational, that these emotions are just symptoms of a temporary state of

> > > > > > mind. The neurochemicals in my brain are firing them off not because they

> > > > > > are true, or because they reflect on me, but because I'm stressed out. I

> > > > > > got no sleep last night. As a result, my mind is extremely sensitive,

> > > > > > prone to charged emotional reactions. "

> > > > > >

> > > > > > " The problem is that even though I know this, I can't seem to make the

> > > > > > emotions stop feeling so true. I can't seem to weaken or undo their

> > > > > > persuasiveness and believability. They have me sold, hook line and sinker. "

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Ultimately, I concluded that there was nothing I could really do about the

> > > > > > emotions. They were there, they were going to continue to arise, and when

> > > > > > they did, they were going to feel incredibly true and right. So I took a

> > > > > > different approach. I gave up on the attempt to change how they felt. I

> > > > > > gave up on the effort to counteract their allure, their persuasiveness,

> > > > > > their believability. I started to *expect* them to feel alluring,

> > > > > > persuasive, believable—that was part of the trick, how they operated. This

> > > > > > expectation reframed my understanding of them. They lost their ability to

> > > > > > convince me, even as they continued to feel convincing. It was as if my

> > > > > > mind, given its past experiences, was able to get a few steps ahead of

> > > > > > them, and take them out of the circuit through which they would otherwise

> > > > > > drive my beliefs.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I remembered the many times that I had felt the emotions and bought into

> > > > > > them, only to realize, after the depressed state of mind had lifted, that I

> > > > > > had been sucked into a delusion. " Wow, where did that come from? " I

> > > > > > embraced what I had seen so clearly in previous undeluded states of mind:

> > > > > > that I was neither good nor bad, a success nor a failure, but just a person

> > > > > > struggling with circumstances, doing what anyone else in my shoes would

> > > > > > do. I contacted this insight and went with it, even as the emotions

> > > > > > themselves continued to bubble up. Rather than fight to neuter the

> > > > > > emotions, I let them continue to be alluring, persuasive, believable. I

> > > > > > stepped back and raised my awareness to a level at which I could understand

> > > > > > their allure, persuasiveness and believability in a different light, a

> > > > > > level at which I could gently dismiss them even as they continued to feel

> > > > > > that way to me.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Surprisingly, in response to this approach, the emotions gradually lost

> > > > > > their intensity. I was able to see past them and confidently move on.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What I employed was a type of mindfulness, a way to transcend the mind's

> > > > > > present delusions by accessing its prior insights. In the piece that

> > > > > > follows, I am going to discuss and clarify this form of mindfulness, and

> > > > > > hopefully give the reader tools to put it into practice.

> > > > > > *

> > > > > > *

> > > > > > *Mindfully Bypassing Feeling, Contacting Prior Insight*

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Normally, when we believe something, some thought, we believe it because

> > > > > > our feelings tell us that it is true. It *feels* true. We follow that

> > > > > > feeling. The problem is that our feelings are often distorted, warped by

> > > > > > the many variants of mental delusion: depression, infatuation, anxiety, the

> > > > > > list goes on.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > When we realize that our feelings are distorted, what do we instinctively

> > > > > > try to do? We try to " fix " them. We argue with them, plead with them,

> > > > > > suppress them, try *not* to feel them, try to feel other more palatable

> > > > > > feelings in their place. But this approach does not work. It rattles the

> > > > > > mind and leaves the feelings that much more entrenched.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > When our belief system operates on their terms, consults them for

> > > > > > guidance, direction, they always win. They always suck us in. What we

> > > > > > need to do, then, is bypass them, short-circuit them, take them out of the

> > > > > > process through which they govern our beliefs. They are, after all, broken

> > > > > > aspects of our mental machinery.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Now, this does not mean that we need to change how they feel. Again, we *

> > > > > > can't* change how they feel. Regardless of what we try to do with them,

> > > > > > they will always feel alluring, persuasive, believable to us. What we need

> > > > > > to do is process the way they feel—process their allure, persuasiveness and

> > > > > > believability—in a different light. We need to *expect* them to feel

> > > > > > alluring, persuasive and belieavable. We need to " chalk up " that quality

> > > > > > to its cause: the delusion. Then, we can dismiss it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Instead of embracing their messages, we need to embrace what we know in

> > > > > > the wiser, more rational parts of our minds. We need to contact the

> > > > > > insights that we've gained by going through the delusions and then having

> > > > > > them lift, seeing after the fact that they were *just* delusions. In a

> > > > > > type of leap, we need to go with those insights, without demanding that our

> > > > > > feelings confirm them.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Consider the example of a person that experiences bouts of depression

> > > > > > followed by periods of mental normalcy. The person cycles through the

> > > > > > following states of mind:

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > (a) Normal: emotions calm, senses clear.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > (aa) Depression hits: experiences tragic, judgment-laden, guilt-ridden,

> > > > > > self-persecutional emotions. View of world and view of self painfully

> > > > > > distorted.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ( Depression lifts: emotions calm, senses regained, clarity and insight

> > > > > > emerge, " What was that all about? "

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > (bb) Depression returns: experiences tragic, judgment-laden, guilt-ridden,

> > > > > > self-persecutional emotions. View of world and view of self painfully

> > > > > > distorted by emotions.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > © Depression lifts: emotions calm, senses regained, clarity and insight

> > > > > > emerge, what was that all about?

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > (cc) Depression returns: experience tragic, judgment-laden, guilt-ridden,

> > > > > > self-persecutional emotions. View of world and view of self painfully

> > > > > > distorted by emotions.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The question is, what should a person in (cc) do? She can't fight the

> > > > > > emotions. They are too powerful. Regardless of her efforts, they will

> > > > > > continue to feel persuasive and believable to her when she considers them.

> > > > > > What she needs to do is shift the way that she sees them. She needs to see

> > > > > > them as feelings, mental events, outgrowths of a depressed state of mind.

> > > > > > She needs to *expect* them to feel persuasive and believable precisely

> > > > > > because of what they are. She needs to " chalk them up " to their cause, and

> > > > > > then dismiss them. In their place, she needs to recall the prior insights

> > > > > > that she gained in ( and ©, where she was able to see the depression

> > > > > > lift, the lie exposed as such. She needs to go with those prior insights,

> > > > > > without demanding confirmation from her presently distorted state of mind.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > " I know these feelings are just delusions. I was able to clearly see that

> > > > > > fact when I was not under the throes of this mess. So that's what I'm

> > > > > > going to go with, I'm going to go with that prior knowledge, *even though*right now the feelings feel so incredibly compelling to me, and

> > > > > > *even as* I relax on them and allow them to feel that way. Moving on…. "

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This shift is very difficult to clearly describe, and so if it confuses

> > > > > > you, don't worry. It confuses *most* people. Rather than try hard to

> > > > > > put it into practice in your life right now, just let it be a fuzzy idea,

> > > > > > something that may eventually blossom into a deeper realization.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > *

> > > > > > *

> > > > > >

> > > > > > *Two Conditions*

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The approach described above works particularly well when the following

> > > > > > two conditions are met:

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > (1) *Basis* – obviously, there has to be a prior insight. To use the

> > > > > > example of depression, you've been through it before, you've seen it and

> > > > > > been fooled by it many times. It is for that very reason that you are able

> > > > > > to contact your prior insights and avoid being fooled again.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But if there are no prior insights, if you are someone experiencing

> > > > > > depression for the first time, then there is nothing for you to contact.

> > > > > > Your world has suddenly shifted, but you don't have the experience to know

> > > > > > that it's all in your mind. Thus, you will not be able to make much use of

> > > > > > this approach.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > (2) *Subjective with No Real-World Impact* – the approach is especially

> > > > > > powerful when applied to something that is subjective and that has no

> > > > > > real-world impact. To again use the example of depression, the claims that

> > > > > > the depression makes—that you are pathetic, inferior, worthless, hopeless,

> > > > > > whatever—are subjective value judgments. They are opinions, not facts, and

> > > > > > therefore they *cannot be true* in the literal sense. Whether they are

> > > > > > taken to be true has no impact on any aspect of reality. The only thing

> > > > > > that is impacted is how you feel.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The approach works best with things that are subjective and that lack a

> > > > > > real-world impact because the mind doesn't have as much reason to doubt

> > > > > > them and worry about them. If you try to contact prior insights with

> > > > > > respect to issues that have a real-world impact, you could be wrong. Your

> > > > > > mind will recognize this risk and may express doubts. If you are wrong, it

> > > > > > will matter, and so your mind will stay on the issue.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But if you are working with something about which you can't be wrong,

> > > > > > something that is subjective and that doesn't impact anything, your mind

> > > > > > has no reason to worry. You can set aside the worries, let them go,

> > > > > > because they have no way to come back and haunt you. The issue is entirely

> > > > > > mental.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Depression, and its close cousin romantic infatuation, where a person gets

> > > > > > caught up in grand negative delusions about himself, or grand positive

> > > > > > delusions about another person, meet these conditions perfectly. That is

> > > > > > why the approach works very well as a way to transcend them. The approach

> > > > > > also works for anxiety and OCD, but not as well, because the mind will

> > > > > > always come back and ask " What if you're wrong, what if you're missing

> > > > > > something? " In the case of depression and infatuation, you *can't* be

> > > > > > wrong, and that simplifies things significantly.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > *

> > > > > > *

> > > > > >

> > > > > > *Summary*

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > To summarize, if you are suffering from depression (or infatuation, or

> > > > > > anxiety, or some other form of mental delusion), and you are experiencing

> > > > > > the associated feelings of shame and persecution, try this. See if you can

> > > > > > recollect on and follow your prior insight, the realization that that these

> > > > > > feelings are just feelings, just outgrowths of a depressed state of mind,

> > > > > > not truth or reality. See if you can take that approach *even as* you

> > > > > > relax on the feelings and let them continue to feel persuasive to you. See

> > > > > > if you can understand and anticipate their persuasive aspect, " chalk it up "

> > > > > > to its cause, without trying to challenge or change it. You may not be

> > > > > > able to, and in that cases, other approaches may be more helpful. But if

> > > > > > you can, you may find that the feelings lose their ability to dominate and

> > > > > > oppress you, and that you are able to rise above them.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I think "get me alone" here doesn't mean quiet contemplation time which, as you suggest is a good thing. It's about turning your back on your program and support network until you're isolated and vulnerable. Jim. I'm with Jim on this. I have always assumed that these admonitions about "my disease wants to get me alone so it can kill me" as preemptive of the nasty outcomes of fusion and avoidance--to use ACT language. Sometimes, when things are said out loud, with a bit of recognizing them as thoughts perspective changes a bit ("so the other day, I was alone in my apartment and my head says to me...one drink? What's the big deal?"). If someone were to say that out loud at an AA meeting, they would get a chuckle. Hearing it, they might chuckle themselves.Cut yourself off from social support. Spend a bunch of time alone ruminating/worrying. What happens? We are social creatures and spending a lot of time cut off is bad medicine. Alone and ruminating/worrying is a formula for bad outcomes.Time for meditation, sure. Demonstrably good stuff. Buddhists say so (well, really, all the great spiritual traditions). AA says so. And, psychological science says so. As long as people get the distinction between meditation and rumination:-)In my most recent book I talk about a lot of great defusion and active life engagement found in AA: here is a snippet from The Wisdom to Know the Differencehttp://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1572249285/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8 & tag=mindfortwo20 & linkCode=as2 & camp=1789 & creative=9325 & creativeASIN=1572249285"There are many other 12-step sayings you might hear in meetings that contain this admonishment to hold what we think lightly. “You have a thinking problem, not a drinking problem” points to a tendency to get caught in worry and rumination and to lose direct contact with your own life. It is, of course, really a warning against overthinking, not thinking per se. The problem of fusion is a problem of letting thinking about life substitute for life. In keeping with the oftentimes self-deprecating humor found around AA, a favorite saying is, “Don’t go into your mind alone; it’s not a safe neighborhood,” and there’s this version from Narcotics Anonymous: “An addict alone is in bad company.” These sayings can be interpreted as negative self-statements, but if they are held lightly, and in kindness, what they point toward is the human tendency to become so engaged in analysis and speculation that we lose contact with the directly experienced world. When you hear a recovering alcoholic, sitting in a church basement at an AA meeting, say with a smile on his or her face, “My best thinking got me here,” you are not looking at self-hatred, you are looking at someone who has learned through trial and error that sometimes their best thinking on a given day is a great source of amusement on another day. Sayings like “Don’t intellectualize, utilize” are calls to action. Thinking about recovery is not the same as active recovery. AA is a program of action, not a program of thinking about action. Ponder, for example, the saying “The three most dangerous words for an alcoholic—‘I’ve been thinking.’” As with the other 12-step sayings, even the saying ought to be held lightly. No one, and I mean no one, with an ounce of sense thinks that you should give up planning and thinking. But as the Serenity Prayer suggests, recognize the things you cannot change. And if you find yourself grinding through some thoughts over and over and over and over, and, yes, over—maybe, just maybe it is time to let go of thinking for a moment and choose some small act, or series of acts, that serves your values. As they say in AA, “Do the next right thing.” This is not just AA folk wisdom; there is a substantial body of scientific evidence that shows that worry and rumi- nation—a couple of very popular ways to get lost in thought—produce bad outcomes. And there is also a convincing body of evidence that suggests that moving your feet and actually doing things (sometimes called behavioral activation by psychologists) is very good medicine. In closing, on this little note, consider this AA adage: “In AA you live your way into a new way of thinking. You do not think your way into a new way of living.” By the way, for people who do not like 12-step, the pieces of the book that are about 12-step/AA connections are set in sections separate from the general text. People can easily read them or not. The main stream of the text is ACT oriented recovery without AA, but the two streams are crafted to be compatible and complimentary.with warm regards, G. 205 Peabody BuildingPsychology DepartmentUniversity of MississippiOxford, MS 38677ph: fax: academic homepage:www.olemiss.edu/working/kwilson/kwilson.htmalso check outwww.onelifellc.comwww.mindfulnessfortwo.comwww.facebook.com/kellygwilsonwww.tastybehaviorism.comwww.abnormalwootwoot.com

[Guest guest]

“In AA you live your way into a new way of thinking. You do not think your way into a new way of living.â€

Wow, that is a powerful statement, even if you remove the "In AA" part preceding the sentence, as in "You live your way into a new way of thinking .... " That is going to become my new favorite mantra for a few days, at least.Helena

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Friday, March 9, 2012 10:37:10 AMSubject: Re: Re: Mindfully Bypassing Feeling, Contacting Prior Insight

I think "get me alone" here doesn't mean quiet contemplation time which, as you suggest is a good thing. It's about turning your back on your program and support network until you're isolated and vulnerable.

Jim

..

I'm with Jim on this. I have always assumed that these admonitions about "my disease wants to get me alone so it can kill me" as preemptive of the nasty outcomes of fusion and avoidance--to use ACT language.

Sometimes, when things are said out loud, with a bit of recognizing them as thoughts perspective changes a bit ("so the other day, I was alone in my apartment and my head says to me...one drink? What's the big deal?"). If someone were to say that out loud at an AA meeting, they would get a chuckle. Hearing it, they might chuckle themselves.

Cut yourself off from social support. Spend a bunch of time alone ruminating/worrying. What happens? We are social creatures and spending a lot of time cut off is bad medicine. Alone and ruminating/worrying is a formula for bad outcomes.

Time for meditation, sure. Demonstrably good stuff. Buddhists say so (well, really, all the great spiritual traditions). AA says so. And, psychological science says so. As long as people get the distinction between meditation and rumination:-)

In my most recent book I talk about a lot of great defusion and active life engagement found in AA: here is a snippet from The Wisdom to Know the Difference

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1572249285/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8 & tag=mindfortwo20 & linkCode=as2 & camp=1789 & creative=9325 & creativeASIN=1572249285

"There are many other 12-step sayings you might hear in meetings that contain this admonishment to hold what we think lightly. “You have a thinking problem, not a drinking problem†points to a tendency to get caught in worry and rumination and to lose direct contact with your own life. It is, of course, really a warning against overthinking, not thinking per se. The problem of fusion is a problem of letting thinking about life substitute for life. In keeping with the oftentimes self-deprecating humor found around AA, a favorite saying is, “Don’t go into your mind alone; it’s not a safe neighborhood,†and there’s this version from Narcotics Anonymous: “An addict alone is in bad company.†These sayings can be interpreted as negative self-statements, but if they are held lightly, and in kindness, what they point toward is the human tendency to become so engaged in analysis and speculation that we lose contact with the directly experienced world. When you hear a recovering alcoholic, sitting in a church basement at an AA meeting, say with a smile on his or her face, “My best thinking got me here,†you are not looking at self-hatred, you are looking at someone who has learned through trial and error that sometimes their best thinking on a given day is a great source of amusement on another day. Sayings like “Don’t intellectualize, utilize†are calls to action. Thinking about recovery is not the same as active recovery. AA is a program of action, not a program of thinking about action. Ponder, for example, the saying “The three most dangerous words for an alcoholic—‘I’ve been thinking.’†As with the other 12-step sayings, even the saying ought to be held lightly. No one, and I mean no one, with an ounce of sense thinks that you should give up planning and thinking. But as the Serenity Prayer suggests, recognize the things you cannot change. And if you find yourself grinding through some thoughts over and over and over and over, and, yes, over—maybe, just maybe it is time to let go of thinking for a moment and choose some small act, or series of acts, that serves your values. As they say in AA, “Do the next right thing.†This is not just AA folk wisdom; there is a substantial body of scientific evidence that shows that worry and rumi- nation—a couple of very popular ways to get lost in thought—produce bad outcomes. And there is also a convincing body of evidence that suggests that moving your feet and actually doing things (sometimes called behavioral activation by psychologists) is very good medicine. In closing, on this little note, consider this AA adage: “In AA you live your way into a new way of thinking. You do not think your way into a new way of living.â€

By the way, for people who do not like 12-step, the pieces of the book that are about 12-step/AA connections are set in sections separate from the general text. People can easily read them or not. The main stream of the text is ACT oriented recovery without AA, but the two streams are crafted to be compatible and complimentary.

with warm regards,

G. 205 Peabody BuildingPsychology DepartmentUniversity of MississippiOxford, MS 38677ph: fax:

academic homepage:www.olemiss.edu/working/kwilson/kwilson.htm

also check outwww.onelifellc.comwww.mindfulnessfortwo.comwww.facebook.com/kellygwilsonwww.tastybehaviorism.comwww.abnormalwootwoot.com

[Guest guest]

Sure, Helena. While I think AA is a potentially huge resource, I recognize that there are folks who will never find a hime there. It is my hope that the book will open the door to a few that have ha a hard time finding a way in and that even those for whom AA may not be appropriate--because of personal taste or someone like you with a moderation outcome--there will be useful stuff.warmly,“In AA you live your way into a new way of thinking. You do not think your way into a new way of living.” Wow, that is a powerful statement, even if you remove the "In AA" part preceding the sentence, as in "You live your way into a new way of thinking .... " That is going to become my new favorite mantra for a few days, at least.HelenaTo: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Friday, March 9, 2012 10:37:10 AMSubject: Re: Re: Mindfully Bypassing Feeling, Contacting Prior InsightI think "get me alone" here doesn't mean quiet contemplation time which, as you suggest is a good thing. It's about turning your back on your program and support network until you're isolated and vulnerable. Jim.<serv.gif> I'm with Jim on this. I have always assumed that these admonitions about "my disease wants to get me alone so it can kill me" as preemptive of the nasty outcomes of fusion and avoidance--to use ACT language. Sometimes, when things are said out loud, with a bit of recognizing them as thoughts perspective changes a bit ("so the other day, I was alone in my apartment and my head says to me...one drink? What's the big deal?"). If someone were to say that out loud at an AA meeting, they would get a chuckle. Hearing it, they might chuckle themselves.Cut yourself off from social support. Spend a bunch of time alone ruminating/worrying. What happens? We are social creatures and spending a lot of time cut off is bad medicine. Alone and ruminating/worrying is a formula for bad outcomes.Time for meditation, sure. Demonstrably good stuff. Buddhists say so (well, really, all the great spiritual traditions). AA says so. And, psychological science says so. As long as people get the distinction between meditation and rumination:-)In my most recent book I talk about a lot of great defusion and active life engagement found in AA: here is a snippet from The Wisdom to Know the Differencehttp://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1572249285/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8 & tag=mindfortwo20 & linkCode=as2 & camp=1789 & creative=9325 & creativeASIN=1572249285"There are many other 12-step sayings you might hear in meetings that contain this admonishment to hold what we think lightly. “You have a thinking problem, not a drinking problem” points to a tendency to get caught in worry and rumination and to lose direct contact with your own life. It is, of course, really a warning against overthinking, not thinking per se. The problem of fusion is a problem of letting thinking about life substitute for life. In keeping with the oftentimes self-deprecating humor found around AA, a favorite saying is, “Don’t go into your mind alone; it’s not a safe neighborhood,” and there’s this version from Narcotics Anonymous: “An addict alone is in bad company.” These sayings can be interpreted as negative self-statements, but if they are held lightly, and in kindness, what they point toward is the human tendency to become so engaged in analysis and speculation that we lose contact with the directly experienced world. When you hear a recovering alcoholic, sitting in a church basement at an AA meeting, say with a smile on his or her face, “My best thinking got me here,” you are not looking at self-hatred, you are looking at someone who has learned through trial and error that sometimes their best thinking on a given day is a great source of amusement on another day. Sayings like “Don’t intellectualize, utilize” are calls to action. Thinking about recovery is not the same as active recovery. AA is a program of action, not a program of thinking about action. Ponder, for example, the saying “The three most dangerous words for an alcoholic—‘I’ve been thinking.’” As with the other 12-step sayings, even the saying ought to be held lightly. No one, and I mean no one, with an ounce of sense thinks that you should give up planning and thinking. But as the Serenity Prayer suggests, recognize the things you cannot change. And if you find yourself grinding through some thoughts over and over and over and over, and, yes, over—maybe, just maybe it is time to let go of thinking for a moment and choose some small act, or series of acts, that serves your values. As they say in AA, “Do the next right thing.” This is not just AA folk wisdom; there is a substantial body of scientific evidence that shows that worry and rumi- nation—a couple of very popular ways to get lost in thought—produce bad outcomes. And there is also a convincing body of evidence that suggests that moving your feet and actually doing things (sometimes called behavioral activation by psychologists) is very good medicine. In closing, on this little note, consider this AA adage: “In AA you live your way into a new way of thinking. You do not think your way into a new way of living.” By the way, for people who do not like 12-step, the pieces of the book that are about 12-step/AA connections are set in sections separate from the general text. People can easily read them or not. The main stream of the text is ACT oriented recovery without AA, but the two streams are crafted to be compatible and complimentary.with warm regards, G. 205 Peabody BuildingPsychology DepartmentUniversity of MississippiOxford, MS 38677ph: fax: academic homepage:www.olemiss.edu/working/kwilson/kwilson.htmalso check outwww.onelifellc.comwww.mindfulnessfortwo.comwww.facebook.com/kellygwilsonwww.tastybehaviorism.comwww.abnormalwootwoot.com

[Guest guest]

Thanks, . Just to be sure no one misunderstood my intention - I removed the AA reference only to show that the statement works for everything in life and not just in conjunction with AA! My nephew's life has been literally saved by AA when all else failed. Now I'm trying to get my twin nieces to read your book - I sent it to them.Helena

From: " " <onelifellcgmail>To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Friday, March 9, 2012 11:35:50 AMSubject: Re: Re: Mindfully Bypassing Feeling, Contacting Prior Insight

Sure, Helena. While I think AA is a potentially huge resource, I recognize that there are folks who will never find a hime there. It is my hope that the book will open the door to a few that have ha a hard time finding a way in and that even those for whom AA may not be appropriate--because of personal taste or someone like you with a moderation outcome--there will be useful stuff.

warmly,

“In AA you live your way into a new way of thinking. You do not think your way into a new way of living.â€

Wow, that is a powerful statement, even if you remove the "In AA" part preceding the sentence, as in "You live your way into a new way of thinking .... " That is going to become my new favorite mantra for a few days, at least.Helena

From: " " <onelifellcgmail>To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Friday, March 9, 2012 10:37:10 AMSubject: Re: Re: Mindfully Bypassing Feeling, Contacting Prior Insight

I think "get me alone" here doesn't mean quiet contemplation time which, as you suggest is a good thing. It's about turning your back on your program and support network until you're isolated and vulnerable.

Jim

..<serv.gif>

I'm with Jim on this. I have always assumed that these admonitions about "my disease wants to get me alone so it can kill me" as preemptive of the nasty outcomes of fusion and avoidance--to use ACT language.

Sometimes, when things are said out loud, with a bit of recognizing them as thoughts perspective changes a bit ("so the other day, I was alone in my apartment and my head says to me...one drink? What's the big deal?"). If someone were to say that out loud at an AA meeting, they would get a chuckle. Hearing it, they might chuckle themselves.

Cut yourself off from social support. Spend a bunch of time alone ruminating/worrying. What happens? We are social creatures and spending a lot of time cut off is bad medicine. Alone and ruminating/worrying is a formula for bad outcomes.

Time for meditation, sure. Demonstrably good stuff. Buddhists say so (well, really, all the great spiritual traditions). AA says so. And, psychological science says so. As long as people get the distinction between meditation and rumination:-)

In my most recent book I talk about a lot of great defusion and active life engagement found in AA: here is a snippet from The Wisdom to Know the Difference

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1572249285/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8 & tag=mindfortwo20 & linkCode=as2 & camp=1789 & creative=9325 & creativeASIN=1572249285

"There are many other 12-step sayings you might hear in meetings that contain this admonishment to hold what we think lightly. “You have a thinking problem, not a drinking problem†points to a tendency to get caught in worry and rumination and to lose direct contact with your own life. It is, of course, really a warning against overthinking, not thinking per se. The problem of fusion is a problem of letting thinking about life substitute for life. In keeping with the oftentimes self-deprecating humor found around AA, a favorite saying is, “Don’t go into your mind alone; it’s not a safe neighborhood,†and there’s this version from Narcotics Anonymous: “An addict alone is in bad company.†These sayings can be interpreted as negative self-statements, but if they are held lightly, and in kindness, what they point toward is the human tendency to become so engaged in analysis and speculation that we lose contact with the directly experienced world. When you hear a recovering alcoholic, sitting in a church basement at an AA meeting, say with a smile on his or her face, “My best thinking got me here,†you are not looking at self-hatred, you are looking at someone who has learned through trial and error that sometimes their best thinking on a given day is a great source of amusement on another day. Sayings like “Don’t intellectualize, utilize†are calls to action. Thinking about recovery is not the same as active recovery. AA is a program of action, not a program of thinking about action. Ponder, for example, the saying “The three most dangerous words for an alcoholic—‘I’ve been thinking.’†As with the other 12-step sayings, even the saying ought to be held lightly. No one, and I mean no one, with an ounce of sense thinks that you should give up planning and thinking. But as the Serenity Prayer suggests, recognize the things you cannot change. And if you find yourself grinding through some thoughts over and over and over and over, and, yes, over—maybe, just maybe it is time to let go of thinking for a moment and choose some small act, or series of acts, that serves your values. As they say in AA, “Do the next right thing.†This is not just AA folk wisdom; there is a substantial body of scientific evidence that shows that worry and rumi- nation—a couple of very popular ways to get lost in thought—produce bad outcomes. And there is also a convincing body of evidence that suggests that moving your feet and actually doing things (sometimes called behavioral activation by psychologists) is very good medicine. In closing, on this little note, consider this AA adage: “In AA you live your way into a new way of thinking. You do not think your way into a new way of living.â€

By the way, for people who do not like 12-step, the pieces of the book that are about 12-step/AA connections are set in sections separate from the general text. People can easily read them or not. The main stream of the text is ACT oriented recovery without AA, but the two streams are crafted to be compatible and complimentary.

with warm regards,

G. 205 Peabody BuildingPsychology DepartmentUniversity of MississippiOxford, MS 38677ph: fax:

academic homepage:www.olemiss.edu/working/kwilson/kwilson.htm

also check outwww.onelifellc.comwww.mindfulnessfortwo.comwww.facebook.com/kellygwilsonwww.tastybehaviorism.comwww.abnormalwootwoot.com

[Guest guest]

Sure, I got that. AA is not for everyone and for a variety of reasons.-k

Thanks, . Just to be sure no one misunderstood my intention - I removed the AA reference only to show that the statement works for everything in life and not just in conjunction with AA! My nephew's life has been literally saved by AA when all else failed. Now I'm trying to get my twin nieces to read your book - I sent it to them.Helena

From: " " <onelifellcgmail>To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Friday, March 9, 2012 11:35:50 AMSubject: Re: Re: Mindfully Bypassing Feeling, Contacting Prior Insight

Sure, Helena. While I think AA is a potentially huge resource, I recognize that there are folks who will never find a hime there. It is my hope that the book will open the door to a few that have ha a hard time finding a way in and that even those for whom AA may not be appropriate--because of personal taste or someone like you with a moderation outcome--there will be useful stuff.

warmly,

“In AA you live your way into a new way of thinking. You do not think your way into a new way of living.”

Wow, that is a powerful statement, even if you remove the "In AA" part preceding the sentence, as in "You live your way into a new way of thinking .... " That is going to become my new favorite mantra for a few days, at least.Helena

From: " " <onelifellcgmail>To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Friday, March 9, 2012 10:37:10 AMSubject: Re: Re: Mindfully Bypassing Feeling, Contacting Prior Insight

I think "get me alone" here doesn't mean quiet contemplation time which, as you suggest is a good thing. It's about turning your back on your program and support network until you're isolated and vulnerable.

Jim

..<serv.gif>

I'm with Jim on this. I have always assumed that these admonitions about "my disease wants to get me alone so it can kill me" as preemptive of the nasty outcomes of fusion and avoidance--to use ACT language.

Sometimes, when things are said out loud, with a bit of recognizing them as thoughts perspective changes a bit ("so the other day, I was alone in my apartment and my head says to me...one drink? What's the big deal?"). If someone were to say that out loud at an AA meeting, they would get a chuckle. Hearing it, they might chuckle themselves.

Cut yourself off from social support. Spend a bunch of time alone ruminating/worrying. What happens? We are social creatures and spending a lot of time cut off is bad medicine. Alone and ruminating/worrying is a formula for bad outcomes.

Time for meditation, sure. Demonstrably good stuff. Buddhists say so (well, really, all the great spiritual traditions). AA says so. And, psychological science says so. As long as people get the distinction between meditation and rumination:-)

In my most recent book I talk about a lot of great defusion and active life engagement found in AA: here is a snippet from The Wisdom to Know the Difference

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1572249285/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8 & tag=mindfortwo20 & linkCode=as2 & camp=1789 & creative=9325 & creativeASIN=1572249285

"There are many other 12-step sayings you might hear in meetings that contain this admonishment to hold what we think lightly. “You have a thinking problem, not a drinking problem” points to a tendency to get caught in worry and rumination and to lose direct contact with your own life. It is, of course, really a warning against overthinking, not thinking per se. The problem of fusion is a problem of letting thinking about life substitute for life. In keeping with the oftentimes self-deprecating humor found around AA, a favorite saying is, “Don’t go into your mind alone; it’s not a safe neighborhood,” and there’s this version from Narcotics Anonymous: “An addict alone is in bad company.” These sayings can be interpreted as negative self-statements, but if they are held lightly, and in kindness, what they point toward is the human tendency to become so engaged in analysis and speculation that we lose contact with the directly experienced world. When you hear a recovering alcoholic, sitting in a church basement at an AA meeting, say with a smile on his or her face, “My best thinking got me here,” you are not looking at self-hatred, you are looking at someone who has learned through trial and error that sometimes their best thinking on a given day is a great source of amusement on another day. Sayings like “Don’t intellectualize, utilize” are calls to action. Thinking about recovery is not the same as active recovery. AA is a program of action, not a program of thinking about action. Ponder, for example, the saying “The three most dangerous words for an alcoholic—‘I’ve been thinking.’” As with the other 12-step sayings, even the saying ought to be held lightly. No one, and I mean no one, with an ounce of sense thinks that you should give up planning and thinking. But as the Serenity Prayer suggests, recognize the things you cannot change. And if you find yourself grinding through some thoughts over and over and over and over, and, yes, over—maybe, just maybe it is time to let go of thinking for a moment and choose some small act, or series of acts, that serves your values. As they say in AA, “Do the next right thing.” This is not just AA folk wisdom; there is a substantial body of scientific evidence that shows that worry and rumi- nation—a couple of very popular ways to get lost in thought—produce bad outcomes. And there is also a convincing body of evidence that suggests that moving your feet and actually doing things (sometimes called behavioral activation by psychologists) is very good medicine. In closing, on this little note, consider this AA adage: “In AA you live your way into a new way of thinking. You do not think your way into a new way of living.”

By the way, for people who do not like 12-step, the pieces of the book that are about 12-step/AA connections are set in sections separate from the general text. People can easily read them or not. The main stream of the text is ACT oriented recovery without AA, but the two streams are crafted to be compatible and complimentary.

with warm regards,

G. 205 Peabody BuildingPsychology DepartmentUniversity of MississippiOxford, MS 38677ph: fax:

academic homepage:www.olemiss.edu/working/kwilson/kwilson.htm

also check outwww.onelifellc.comwww.mindfulnessfortwo.comwww.facebook.com/kellygwilsonwww.tastybehaviorism.comwww.abnormalwootwoot.com

[Guest guest]

, Thanks for that. You frequently hear in meetings that " it's a disease of isolation " and I've found that to be very true. For me, as for many people on this group and in 'the rooms " , needing and relying on others is not a comfortable state of affairs. In the old Mickey Rourke movie, Barfly (written by famous drunk, Bukowski), barroom drunk Hank Chinaski's girlfriend asks him " do you hate people? " " No, " replies Hank, " I just seem to feel better when they're not around. " Boy, could I relate!

JimPS--ACT seems to me to be the first therapy that really has something to contribute to AA. Most traditional psychodynamic styles stress content and narrative too much to have much effect on a 'disease' with roots in genetics and branches in sub-cortical implicit memory. That's like trying to fix an operating system crash by editing a story in Microsoft Word. It's also why you increasingly hear, " my shrink told me I couldn't keep seeing her unless I got sober in AA. "  

 

Sure, Helena. While I think AA is a potentially huge resource, I recognize that there are folks who will never find a hime there. It is my hope that the book will open the door to a few that have ha a hard time finding a way in and that even those for whom AA may not be appropriate--because of personal taste or someone like you with a moderation outcome--there will be useful stuff.

warmly,

“In AA you live your way into a new way of thinking. You do not think your way into a new way of living.” 

 Wow, that is a powerful statement, even if you remove the " In AA " part preceding the sentence, as in " You live your way into a new way of thinking .... "   That is going to become my new favorite mantra for a few days, at least.

HelenaFrom:  " " To:  " ACT for the Public " <ACT_for_the_Public >

Sent: Friday, March 9, 2012 10:37:10 AMSubject: Re: Re: Mindfully Bypassing Feeling, Contacting Prior Insight

I think " get me alone " here doesn't mean quiet contemplation time which, as you suggest is a good thing. It's about turning your back on your program and support network until you're isolated and vulnerable. 

Jim.<serv.gif> 

I'm with Jim on this. I have always assumed that these admonitions about " my disease wants to get me alone so it can kill me " as preemptive of the nasty outcomes of fusion and avoidance--to use ACT language. 

Sometimes, when things are said out loud, with a bit of recognizing them as thoughts perspective changes a bit ( " so the other day, I was alone in my apartment and my head says to me...one drink? What's the big deal? " ). If someone were to say that out loud at an AA meeting, they would get a chuckle. Hearing it, they might chuckle themselves.

Cut yourself off from social support. Spend a bunch of time alone ruminating/worrying. What happens? We are social creatures and spending a lot of time cut off is bad medicine. Alone and ruminating/worrying is a formula for bad outcomes.

Time for meditation, sure. Demonstrably good stuff. Buddhists say so (well, really, all the great spiritual traditions). AA says so. And, psychological science says so. As long as people get the distinction between meditation and rumination:-)

In my most recent book I talk about a lot of great defusion and active life engagement found in AA: here is a snippet from The Wisdom to Know the Differencehttp://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1572249285/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8 & tag=mindfortwo20 & linkCode=as2 & camp=1789 & creative=9325 & creativeASIN=1572249285

" There are many other 12-step sayings you might hear in meetings that contain this admonishment to hold what we think lightly. “You have a thinking problem, not a drinking problem” points to a tendency to get caught in worry and rumination and to lose direct contact with your own life. It is, of course, really a warning against overthinking, not thinking per se. The problem of fusion is a problem of letting thinking about life substitute for life. In keeping with the oftentimes self-deprecating humor found around AA, a favorite saying is, “Don’t go into your mind alone; it’s not a safe neighborhood,” and there’s this version from Narcotics Anonymous: “An addict alone is in bad company.” These sayings can be interpreted as negative self-statements, but if they are held lightly, and in kindness, what they point toward is the human tendency to become so engaged in analysis and speculation that we lose contact with the directly experienced world. When you hear a recovering alcoholic, sitting in a church basement at an AA meeting, say with a smile on his or her face, “My best thinking got me here,” you are not looking at self-hatred, you are looking at someone who has learned through trial and error that sometimes their best thinking on a given day is a great source of amusement on another day. Sayings like “Don’t intellectualize, utilize” are calls to action. Thinking about recovery is not the same as active recovery. AA is a program of action, not a program of thinking about action. Ponder, for example, the saying “The three most dangerous words for an alcoholic—‘I’ve been thinking.’” As with the other 12-step sayings, even the saying ought to be held lightly. No one, and I mean no one, with an ounce of sense thinks that you should give up planning and thinking. But as the Serenity Prayer suggests, recognize the things you cannot change. And if you find yourself grinding through some thoughts over and over and over and over, and, yes, over—maybe, just maybe it is time to let go of thinking for a moment and choose some small act, or series of acts, that serves your values. As they say in AA, “Do the next right thing.” This is not just AA folk wisdom; there is a substantial body of scientific evidence that shows that worry and rumi- nation—a couple of very popular ways to get lost in thought—produce bad outcomes. And there is also a convincing body of evidence that suggests that moving your feet and actually doing things (sometimes called behavioral activation by psychologists) is very good medicine. In closing, on this little note, consider this AA adage: “In AA you live your way into a new way of thinking. You do not think your way into a new way of living.” 

By the way, for people who do not like 12-step, the pieces of the book that are about 12-step/AA connections are set in sections separate from the general text. People can easily read them or not. The main stream of the text is ACT oriented recovery without AA, but the two streams are crafted to be compatible and complimentary.

with warm regards,

G. 205 Peabody BuildingPsychology DepartmentUniversity of MississippiOxford, MS 38677ph: fax:

academic homepage:www.olemiss.edu/working/kwilson/kwilson.htmalso check outwww.onelifellc.com

www.mindfulnessfortwo.comwww.facebook.com/kellygwilsonwww.tastybehaviorism.com

www.abnormalwootwoot.com

[Guest guest]

You seem to be implying that Jim is being irresponsible in his assertion. Seriously? I guess that sort of thing is what troubles me so much about your questions and comments, Terry. I see so much judgment in them. It scares me.

If it wasn't written by or , it will be prodded and poked and challenged and judged.

Hey hey,

Helena

From: "theresa linder" <theresa.linderymail>To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 9:47:55 AMSubject: Re: Mindfully Bypassing Feeling, Contacting Prior Insight

I don't know how you can responsibly assert AA especially unsuitable for people who are successful stopping another way. You often sound like you're reading from a book. Needs of course change over time for everyone. I was terrified after reading a bunch of hate stuff about AA and so stayed away for years. I recently stopped on my own for six weeks and it was okay, but not nearly as fantastic as now going to meetings-- in terms of my spiritual, emotional, social growth, which have accelerated tenfold as result. And I'm just beginning. Just as we've been discussing, the meeting is a substantial way to address the "ism" of the disease. The one of social isolation began to illustrate here, getting me out of my mind, over-thinking everything. The meeting is like acceptance, defusion, mindfulness values in flight. We laugh, cry, share our struggles and triumphs and at the end, the lighter feeling is palpable. Hugs and phone numbers exchanged. I become known. What a gift. I'm so glad people like kept the doors open for me all these years.kind regards,terry> > > >> > > > I think "get me alone" here doesn't mean quiet contemplation time> > which, as you suggest is a good thing. It's about turning your back on> > your program and support network until you're isolated and vulnerable.> > > >> > > >> > > > Jim> > > >> > > > .> > > > <serv.gif>> > > >> > > > I'm with Jim on this. I have always assumed that these admonitions> > about "my disease wants to get me alone so it can kill me" as preemptive> > of the nasty outcomes of fusion and avoidance--to use ACT language.> > > >> > > > Sometimes, when things are said out loud, with a bit of recognizing> > them as thoughts perspective changes a bit ("so the other day, I was> > alone in my apartment and my head says to me...one drink? What's the big> > deal?"). If someone were to say that out loud at an AA meeting, they> > would get a chuckle. Hearing it, they might chuckle themselves.> > > >> > > > Cut yourself off from social support. Spend a bunch of time alone> > ruminating/worrying. What happens? We are social creatures and spending> > a lot of time cut off is bad medicine. Alone and ruminating/worrying is> > a formula for bad outcomes.> > > >> > > > Time for meditation, sure. Demonstrably good stuff. Buddhists say so> > (well, really, all the great spiritual traditions). AA says so. And,> > psychological science says so. As long as people get the distinction> > between meditation and rumination:-)> > > >> > > > In my most recent book I talk about a lot of great defusion and> > active life engagement found in AA: here is a snippet from The Wisdom to> > Know the Difference> > > >> > http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1572249285/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8 & tag=\> > mindfortwo20 & linkCode=as2 & camp=1789 & creative=9325 & creativeASIN=157224928\> > 5<http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1572249285/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8 & tag=mindfortwo20 & linkCode=as2 & camp=1789 & creative=9325 & creativeASIN=1572249285>> >> > > > "There are many other 12-step sayings you might hear in meetings> > that contain this admonishment to hold what we think lightly. "You> > have a thinking problem, not a drinking problem" points to a> > tendency to get caught in worry and rumination and to lose direct> > contact with your own life. It is, of course, really a warning against> > overthinking, not thinking per se. The problem of fusion is a problem of> > letting thinking about life substitute for life. In keeping with the> > oftentimes self-deprecating humor found around AA, a favorite saying is,> > "Don't go into your mind alone; it's not a safe> > neighborhood," and there's this version from Narcotics> > Anonymous: "An addict alone is in bad company." These sayings> > can be interpreted as negative self-statements, but if they are held> > lightly, and in kindness, what they point toward is the human tendency> > to become so engaged in analysis and speculation that we lose contact> > with the directly experienced world. When you hear a recovering> > alcoholic, sitting in a church basement at an AA meeting, say with a> > smile on his or her face, "My best thinking got me here," you> > are not looking at self-hatred, you are looking at someone who has> > learned through trial and error that sometimes their best thinking on a> > given day is a great source of amusement on another day. Sayings like> > "Don't intellectualize, utilize" are calls to action.> > Thinking about recovery is not the same as active recovery. AA is a> > program of action, not a program of thinking about action. Ponder, for> > example, the saying "The three most dangerous words for an> > alcoholic—`I've been thinking.'" As with the other 12-step> > sayings, even the saying ought to be held lightly. No one, and I mean no> > one, with an ounce of sense thinks that you should give up planning and> > thinking. But as the Serenity Prayer suggests, recognize the things you> > cannot change. And if you find yourself grinding through some thoughts> > over and over and over and over, and, yes, over—maybe, just maybe it> > is time to let go of thinking for a moment and choose some small act, or> > series of acts, that serves your values. As they say in AA, "Do the> > next right thing." This is not just AA folk wisdom; there is a> > substantial body of scientific evidence that shows that worry and rumi-> > nation—a couple of very popular ways to get lost in> > thought—produce bad outcomes. And there is also a convincing body of> > evidence that suggests that moving your feet and actually doing things> > (sometimes called behavioral activation by psychologists) is very good> > medicine. In closing, on this little note, consider this AA adage:> > "In AA you live your way into a new way of thinking. You do not> > think your way into a new way of living."> > > > By the way, for people who do not like 12-step, the pieces of the> > book that are about 12-step/AA connections are set in sections separate> > from the general text. People can easily read them or not. The main> > stream of the text is ACT oriented recovery without AA, but the two> > streams are crafted to be compatible and complimentary.> > > >> > > > with warm regards,> > > > > > > >> > > > G. > > > > 205 Peabody Building> > > > Psychology Department> > > > University of Mississippi> > > > Oxford, MS 38677> > > >> > > > ph: > > > > fax: > > > >> > > > academic homepage:> > > > www.olemiss.edu/working/kwilson/kwilson.htm> > > >> > > > also check out> > > > www.onelifellc.com> > > > www.mindfulnessfortwo.com> > > > www.facebook.com/kellygwilson> > > > www.tastybehaviorism.com> > > > www.abnormalwootwoot.com> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> >> > > >>

[Guest guest]

Thank you Shauna. I am doing that. I am fully at peace now and have discovered why I am responding to such triggers inappropriately (it's very personal, so I can't share it here).

Not sure what you mean about this being between those two people. My comment was between Terry and myself, was it not, and yet you are jumping in with a comment/judgment of your own for me. I'm cool with that, but it does seem a bit inconsistent with your viewpoint about stuff being between the conversants. This is a public list. I believe anyone has the right to say anything to anyone about anything at anytime. Sure, we need to keep it civil, and I did mess up there.

Helena

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 1:41:23 PMSubject: Re: Mindfully Bypassing Feeling, Contacting Prior Insight

Helena,Perhaps this is between Terry and Jim. If you are feeling scared or judgemental, you could deal with those feelings and your thoughts about this interaction by using some ACT processes. Defusion comes to mind, but accepting that people will not always act in ways that you approve of might also help. These are methods I try to use in dealing with posts in which you act in ways that I do not agree with. I hope they will bring you some peace.Shauna > > > > > > > > > > I think "get me alone" here doesn't mean quiet contemplation time > > > which, as you suggest is a good thing. It's about turning your back on > > > your program and support network until you're isolated and vulnerable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > < serv . gif > > > > > > > > > > > I'm with Jim on this. I have always assumed that these admonitions > > > about "my disease wants to get me alone so it can kill me" as preemptive > > > of the nasty outcomes of fusion and avoidance--to use ACT language. > > > > > > > > > > Sometimes, when things are said out loud, with a bit of recognizing > > > them as thoughts perspective changes a bit ("so the other day, I was > > > alone in my apartment and my head says to me...one drink? What's the big > > > deal?"). If someone were to say that out loud at an AA meeting, they > > > would get a chuckle. Hearing it, they might chuckle themselves. > > > > > > > > > > Cut yourself off from social support. Spend a bunch of time alone > > > ruminating/worrying. What happens? We are social creatures and spending > > > a lot of time cut off is bad medicine. Alone and ruminating/worrying is > > > a formula for bad outcomes. > > > > > > > > > > Time for meditation, sure. Demonstrably good stuff. Buddhists say so > > > (well, really, all the great spiritual traditions). AA says so. And, > > > psychological science says so. As long as people get the distinction > > > between meditation and rumination:-) > > > > > > > > > > In my most recent book I talk about a lot of great defusion and > > > active life engagement found in AA: here is a snippet from The Wisdom to > > > Know the Difference > > > > > > > > http://www.amazon.com/ gp /product/1572249285/ref=as_ li _ tf _ tl ? ie =UTF8 & tag=\ > > > mindfortwo20 & linkCode =as2 & camp=1789 & creative=9325 & creativeASIN =157224928\ > > > 5< http://www.amazon.com/ gp /product/1572249285/ref=as_ li _ tf _ tl ? ie =UTF8 & tag=mindfortwo20 & linkCode =as2 & camp=1789 & creative=9325 & creativeASIN =1572249285 > > > > > > > > > "There are many other 12-step sayings you might hear in meetings > > > that contain this admonishment to hold what we think lightly. "You > > > have a thinking problem, not a drinking problem" points to a > > > tendency to get caught in worry and rumination and to lose direct > > > contact with your own life. It is, of course, really a warning against > > > overthinking , not thinking per se . The problem of fusion is a problem of > > > letting thinking about life substitute for life. In keeping with the > > > oftentimes self-deprecating humor found around AA, a favorite saying is, > > > "Don't go into your mind alone; it's not a safe > > > neighborhood," and there's this version from Narcotics > > > Anonymous: "An addict alone is in bad company." These sayings > > > can be interpreted as negative self-statements, but if they are held > > > lightly, and in kindness, what they point toward is the human tendency > > > to become so engaged in analysis and speculation that we lose contact > > > with the directly experienced world. When you hear a recovering > > > alcoholic, sitting in a church basement at an AA meeting, say with a > > > smile on his or her face, "My best thinking got me here," you > > > are not looking at self-hatred, you are looking at someone who has > > > learned through trial and error that sometimes their best thinking on a > > > given day is a great source of amusement on another day. Sayings like > > > "Don't intellectualize, utilize" are calls to action. > > > Thinking about recovery is not the same as active recovery. AA is a > > > program of action, not a program of thinking about action. Ponder, for > > > example, the saying "The three most dangerous words for an > > > alcoholicâ€"`I've been thinking.'" As with the other 12-step > > > sayings, even the saying ought to be held lightly. No one, and I mean no > > > one, with an ounce of sense thinks that you should give up planning and > > > thinking. But as the Serenity Prayer suggests, recognize the things you > > > cannot change. And if you find yourself grinding through some thoughts > > > over and over and over and over, and, yes, overâ€"maybe, just maybe it > > > is time to let go of thinking for a moment and choose some small act, or > > > series of acts, that serves your values. As they say in AA, "Do the > > > next right thing." This is not just AA folk wisdom; there is a > > > substantial body of scientific evidence that shows that worry and rumi- > > > nationâ€"a couple of very popular ways to get lost in > > > thoughtâ€"produce bad outcomes. And there is also a convincing body of > > > evidence that suggests that moving your feet and actually doing things > > > (sometimes called behavioral activation by psychologists) is very good > > > medicine. In closing, on this little note, consider this AA adage: > > > "In AA you live your way into a new way of thinking. You do not > > > think your way into a new way of living." > > > > > By the way, for people who do not like 12-step, the pieces of the > > > book that are about 12-step/AA connections are set in sections separate > > > from the general text. People can easily read them or not. The main > > > stream of the text is ACT oriented recovery without AA, but the two > > > streams are crafted to be compatible and complimentary. > > > > > > > > > > with warm regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > G. > > > > > 205 Peabody Building > > > > > Psychology Department > > > > > University of Mississippi > > > > > Oxford, MS 38677 > > > > > > > > > > ph : > > > > > fax: > > > > > > > > > > academic homepage: > > > > > www. olemiss . edu /working/ kwilson / kwilson . htm > > > > > > > > > > also check out > > > > > www. onelifellc .com > > > > > www. mindfulnessfortwo .com > > > > > www.facebook.com/ kellygwilson > > > > > www. tastybehaviorism .com > > > > > www. abnormalwootwoot .com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>

[Guest guest]

I wasn't sure about it being between Terry and me either. I don't have any quarrel with Terry, her membership in AA or anything else.

Thank you Shauna. I am doing that. I am fully at peace now and have discovered why I am responding to such triggers inappropriately (it's very personal, so I can't share it here). Not sure what you mean about this being between those two people. My comment was between Terry and myself, was it not, and yet you are jumping in with a comment/judgment of your own for me. I'm cool with that, but it does seem a bit inconsistent with your viewpoint about stuff being between the conversants. This is a public list. I believe anyone has the right to say anything to anyone about anything at anytime. Sure, we need to keep it civil, and I did mess up there. Helena

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 1:41:23 PMSubject: Re: Mindfully Bypassing Feeling, Contacting Prior Insight

Helena,Perhaps this is between Terry and Jim. If you are feeling scared or judgemental, you could deal with those feelings and your thoughts about this interaction by using some ACT processes. Defusion comes to mind, but accepting that people will not always act in ways that you approve of might also help. These are methods I try to use in dealing with posts in which you act in ways that I do not agree with. I hope they will bring you some peace.Shauna > > > > > > > > > > I think "get me alone" here doesn't mean quiet contemplation time > > > which, as you suggest is a good thing. It's about turning your back on > > > your program and support network until you're isolated and vulnerable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > < serv . gif > > > > > > > > > > > I'm with Jim on this. I have always assumed that these admonitions > > > about "my disease wants to get me alone so it can kill me" as preemptive > > > of the nasty outcomes of fusion and avoidance--to use ACT language. > > > > > > > > > > Sometimes, when things are said out loud, with a bit of recognizing > > > them as thoughts perspective changes a bit ("so the other day, I was > > > alone in my apartment and my head says to me...one drink? What's the big > > > deal?"). If someone were to say that out loud at an AA meeting, they > > > would get a chuckle. Hearing it, they might chuckle themselves. > > > > > > > > > > Cut yourself off from social support. Spend a bunch of time alone > > > ruminating/worrying. What happens? We are social creatures and spending > > > a lot of time cut off is bad medicine. Alone and ruminating/worrying is > > > a formula for bad outcomes. > > > > > > > > > > Time for meditation, sure. Demonstrably good stuff. Buddhists say so > > > (well, really, all the great spiritual traditions). AA says so. And, > > > psychological science says so. As long as people get the distinction > > > between meditation and rumination:-) > > > > > > > > > > In my most recent book I talk about a lot of great defusion and > > > active life engagement found in AA: here is a snippet from The Wisdom to > > > Know the Difference > > > > > > > > http://www.amazon.com/ gp /product/1572249285/ref=as_ li _ tf _ tl ? ie =UTF8 & tag=\ > > > mindfortwo20 & linkCode =as2 & camp=1789 & creative=9325 & creativeASIN =157224928\ > > > 5< http://www.amazon.com/ gp /product/1572249285/ref=as_ li _ tf _ tl ? ie =UTF8 & tag=mindfortwo20 & linkCode =as2 & camp=1789 & creative=9325 & creativeASIN =1572249285 > > > > > > > > > "There are many other 12-step sayings you might hear in meetings > > > that contain this admonishment to hold what we think lightly. "You > > > have a thinking problem, not a drinking problem" points to a > > > tendency to get caught in worry and rumination and to lose direct > > > contact with your own life. It is, of course, really a warning against > > > overthinking , not thinking per se . The problem of fusion is a problem of > > > letting thinking about life substitute for life. In keeping with the > > > oftentimes self-deprecating humor found around AA, a favorite saying is, > > > "Don't go into your mind alone; it's not a safe > > > neighborhood," and there's this version from Narcotics > > > Anonymous: "An addict alone is in bad company." These sayings > > > can be interpreted as negative self-statements, but if they are held > > > lightly, and in kindness, what they point toward is the human tendency > > > to become so engaged in analysis and speculation that we lose contact > > > with the directly experienced world. When you hear a recovering > > > alcoholic, sitting in a church basement at an AA meeting, say with a > > > smile on his or her face, "My best thinking got me here," you > > > are not looking at self-hatred, you are looking at someone who has > > > learned through trial and error that sometimes their best thinking on a > > > given day is a great source of amusement on another day. Sayings like > > > "Don't intellectualize, utilize" are calls to action. > > > Thinking about recovery is not the same as active recovery. AA is a > > > program of action, not a program of thinking about action. Ponder, for > > > example, the saying "The three most dangerous words for an > > > alcoholicâ€"`I've been thinking.'" As with the other 12-step > > > sayings, even the saying ought to be held lightly. No one, and I mean no > > > one, with an ounce of sense thinks that you should give up planning and > > > thinking. But as the Serenity Prayer suggests, recognize the things you > > > cannot change. And if you find yourself grinding through some thoughts > > > over and over and over and over, and, yes, overâ€"maybe, just maybe it > > > is time to let go of thinking for a moment and choose some small act, or > > > series of acts, that serves your values. As they say in AA, "Do the > > > next right thing." This is not just AA folk wisdom; there is a > > > substantial body of scientific evidence that shows that worry and rumi- > > > nationâ€"a couple of very popular ways to get lost in > > > thoughtâ€"produce bad outcomes. And there is also a convincing body of > > > evidence that suggests that moving your feet and actually doing things > > > (sometimes called behavioral activation by psychologists) is very good > > > medicine. In closing, on this little note, consider this AA adage: > > > "In AA you live your way into a new way of thinking. You do not > > > think your way into a new way of living." > > > > > By the way, for people who do not like 12-step, the pieces of the > > > book that are about 12-step/AA connections are set in sections separate > > > from the general text. People can easily read them or not. The main > > > stream of the text is ACT oriented recovery without AA, but the two > > > streams are crafted to be compatible and complimentary. > > > > > > > > > > with warm regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > G. > > > > > 205 Peabody Building > > > > > Psychology Department > > > > > University of Mississippi > > > > > Oxford, MS 38677 > > > > > > > > > > ph : > > > > > fax: > > > > > > > > > > academic homepage: > > > > > www. olemiss . edu /working/ kwilson / kwilson . htm > > > > > > > > > > also check out > > > > > www. onelifellc .com > > > > > www. mindfulnessfortwo .com > > > > > www.facebook.com/ kellygwilson > > > > > www. tastybehaviorism .com > > > > > www. abnormalwootwoot .com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>

[Guest guest]

Hi , has anyone , after putting act therapy in practice for themselves became more aware of their thoughts, and in time become more honest with themselves and maybe others, after listening to all the crap that we say to ourselves, and realising the amount of lies that consume the mind, and at the same time what this all means is , is it possible to live where you can see others lying to you , through you just observing their sayings . I wonder in wonder.

Sent from Yahoo!7 Mail on Android

From:

JAMES P RYAN ;

To:

<ACT_for_the_Public >;

Subject:

Re: Re: Mindfully Bypassing Feeling, Contacting Prior Insight

Sent:

Sun, Mar 11, 2012 10:33:39 PM

I wasn't sure about it being between Terry and me either. I don't have any quarrel with Terry, her membership in AA or anything else.

Thank you Shauna. I am doing that. I am fully at peace now and have discovered why I am responding to such triggers inappropriately (it's very personal, so I can't share it here). Not sure what you mean about this being between those two people. My comment was between Terry and myself, was it not, and yet you are jumping in with a comment/judgment of your own for me. I'm cool with that, but it does seem a bit inconsistent with your viewpoint about stuff being between the conversants. This is a public list. I believe anyone has the right to say anything to anyone about anything at anytime. Sure, we need to keep it

civil, and I did mess up there. Helena

To: " ACT for the Public " <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 1:41:23 PMSubject: Re: Mindfully Bypassing Feeling, Contacting Prior Insight

Helena,Perhaps this is between Terry and Jim. If you are feeling scared or judgemental, you could deal with those feelings and your thoughts about this interaction by using some ACT processes. Defusion comes to mind, but accepting that people will not always act in ways that you approve of might also help. These are methods I try to use in dealing with posts in which you act in ways that I do not agree with. I hope they will bring you some peace.Shauna > > > > > > > > > > I think " get me alone " here doesn't mean quiet contemplation time > > > which, as you suggest is a good thing. It's about turning your back on > > > your program and support network until you're isolated and vulnerable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > < serv . gif > > > > > > > > > > > I'm with Jim on this. I have always assumed that these admonitions > > > about " my disease wants to get me alone so it can kill me " as preemptive > > > of the nasty outcomes of fusion and avoidance--to use ACT language. > > > > > > > > > > Sometimes, when things are

said out loud, with a bit of recognizing > > > them as thoughts perspective changes a bit ( " so the other day, I was > > > alone in my apartment and my head says to me...one drink? What's the big > > > deal? " ). If someone were to say that out loud at an AA meeting, they > > > would get a chuckle. Hearing it, they might chuckle themselves. > > > > > > > > > > Cut yourself off from social support. Spend a bunch of time alone > > > ruminating/worrying. What happens? We are social creatures and spending > > > a lot of time cut off is bad medicine. Alone and ruminating/worrying is > > > a formula for bad outcomes. > > > > > > > > > > Time for meditation, sure. Demonstrably good stuff. Buddhists say so > > > (well, really, all the great spiritual traditions). AA says

so. And, > > > psychological science says so. As long as people get the distinction > > > between meditation and rumination:-) > > > > > > > > > > In my most recent book I talk about a lot of great defusion and > > > active life engagement found in AA: here is a snippet from The Wisdom to > > > Know the Difference > > > > > > > > http://www.amazon.com/ gp /product/1572249285/ref=as_ li _ tf _ tl ? ie =UTF8 & tag=\ > > > mindfortwo20 & linkCode =as2 & camp=1789 & creative=9325 & creativeASIN =157224928\ > > > 5< http://www.amazon.com/ gp /product/1572249285/ref=as_ li _ tf _ tl ? ie =UTF8 & tag=mindfortwo20 & linkCode

=as2 & camp=1789 & creative=9325 & creativeASIN =1572249285 > > > > > > > > > " There are many other 12-step sayings you might hear in meetings > > > that contain this admonishment to hold what we think lightly. " You > > > have a thinking problem, not a drinking problem " points to a > > > tendency to get caught in worry and rumination and to lose direct > > > contact with your own life. It is, of course, really a warning against > > > overthinking , not thinking per se . The problem of fusion is a problem of > > > letting thinking about life substitute for life. In keeping with the > > > oftentimes self-deprecating humor found around AA, a favorite saying is, > > > " Don't go into your mind alone; it's not a safe > > > neighborhood, " and there's this version from

Narcotics > > > Anonymous: " An addict alone is in bad company. " These sayings > > > can be interpreted as negative self-statements, but if they are held > > > lightly, and in kindness, what they point toward is the human tendency > > > to become so engaged in analysis and speculation that we lose contact > > > with the directly experienced world. When you hear a recovering > > > alcoholic, sitting in a church basement at an AA meeting, say with a > > > smile on his or her face, " My best thinking got me here, " you > > > are not looking at self-hatred, you are looking at someone who has > > > learned through trial and error that sometimes their best thinking on a > > > given day is a great source of amusement on another day. Sayings like > > > " Don't intellectualize, utilize " are

calls to action. > > > Thinking about recovery is not the same as active recovery. AA is a > > > program of action, not a program of thinking about action. Ponder, for > > > example, the saying " The three most dangerous words for an > > > alcoholic†" `I've been thinking.' " As with the other 12-step > > > sayings, even the saying ought to be held lightly. No one, and I mean no > > > one, with an ounce of sense thinks that you should give up planning and > > > thinking. But as the Serenity Prayer suggests, recognize the things you > > > cannot change. And if you find yourself grinding through some thoughts > > > over and over and over and over, and, yes, over†" maybe, just maybe it > > > is time to let go of thinking for a moment and choose some small act, or > > > series of acts,

that serves your values. As they say in AA, " Do the > > > next right thing. " This is not just AA folk wisdom; there is a > > > substantial body of scientific evidence that shows that worry and rumi- > > > nation†" a couple of very popular ways to get lost in > > > thought†" produce bad outcomes. And there is also a convincing body of > > > evidence that suggests that moving your feet and actually doing things > > > (sometimes called behavioral activation by psychologists) is very good > > > medicine. In closing, on this little note, consider this AA adage: > > > " In AA you live your way into a new way of thinking. You do not > > > think your way into a new way of living. " > > > > > By the way, for people who do not like 12-step, the pieces of the > > > book that are about

12-step/AA connections are set in sections separate > > > from the general text. People can easily read them or not. The main > > > stream of the text is ACT oriented recovery without AA, but the two > > > streams are crafted to be compatible and complimentary. > > > > > > > > > > with warm regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > G. > > > > > 205 Peabody Building > > > > > Psychology Department > > > > > University of Mississippi > > > > > Oxford, MS 38677 > > > > > > > > > > ph : > > > > > fax: > > > > > > > > > > academic homepage: > > > > > www. olemiss . edu /working/ kwilson / kwilson .

htm > > > > > > > > > > also check out > > > > > www. onelifellc .com > > > > > www. mindfulnessfortwo .com > > > > > www.facebook.com/ kellygwilson > > > > > www. tastybehaviorism .com > > > > > www. abnormalwootwoot .com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>

[Guest guest]

Yes l understand everyone does white lies. Probably a lot , but since doing act , for me its like its given me a lie detector for myself and others. I mean l was ok with white lies, but know since defusion from thoughts i can this bull in. the thoughts, and see it in others which is pandemic in society look at advertising. I wonder it gets confusing , some people are brought up to generally be honest, but others are not, l mean when it comes to the important issues in life and white lies are told there mot so whiite anymore, how do you trust

Sent from Yahoo!7 Mail on Android

From:

L ;

To:

ACT_for_the_Public <ACT_for_the_Public >;

Subject:

Re: Re: Mindfully Bypassing Feeling, Contacting Prior Insight

Sent:

Mon, Mar 12, 2012 1:03:09 AM

I believe that a lie occurs when ones 'actions' do not match their 'words'. ACT taught me to also consider the fact that humans mess-up sometimes, including me of course. Sometimes one can move past the lie. A funny story...I'm with my therapist and he asks, " When was the last time you had a smoke? " I look at him wide eyed and try to suppress a grin. I spout out, " Oh about 3 hours ago... " then I break into uncontrollable laughter and he asks me whats going on. I immediately confess... " I lied! I had a smoke right before I came here today! " . He

looked at me with that therapist look in his

eye, grinning on one side of his face and I knew I was forgiven. I lied because I'd broken a promise not to come in stoned and I valued that promise. The confession was better, naturally, even if I did have to face uncomfortable consequences. To: " ACT_for_the_Public "

<ACT_for_the_Public >; " jim.ryan@... " Sent: Monday, 12 March 2012 11:03 AM Subject: Re: Re: Mindfully Bypassing Feeling, Contacting Prior Insight

Hi , has anyone , after putting act therapy in practice for themselves became more aware of their thoughts, and in time become more honest with themselves and maybe others, after listening to all the crap that we say to ourselves, and realising the amount of lies that consume the mind, and at the same time what this all means is , is it possible to live where you can see others lying to you , through you just observing their sayings . I wonder in wonder.

Sent from Yahoo!7 Mail on Android

From:

JAMES P RYAN ;

To:

<ACT_for_the_Public >;

Subject:

Re: Re: Mindfully Bypassing Feeling, Contacting Prior Insight

Sent:

Sun, Mar 11, 2012 10:33:39 PM

I wasn't sure about it being between Terry and me either. I don't have any quarrel with Terry, her membership in AA or anything else.

Thank you Shauna. I am doing that. I am fully at peace now and have discovered why I am responding to such triggers inappropriately (it's very personal, so I can't share it here). Not sure what you mean about this being between those two people. My comment was between Terry and myself, was it not, and yet you are jumping in with a comment/judgment of your own for me. I'm cool with that, but it does seem a bit inconsistent with your viewpoint about stuff being between the conversants. This is a public list. I believe anyone has the right to say anything to anyone about anything at anytime. Sure, we need to keep it

civil, and I did mess up there. Helena

To: " ACT for the Public " <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 1:41:23 PMSubject: Re: Mindfully Bypassing Feeling, Contacting Prior Insight

Helena,Perhaps this is between Terry and Jim. If you are feeling scared or judgemental, you could deal with those feelings and your thoughts about this interaction by using some ACT processes. Defusion comes to mind, but accepting that people will not always act in ways that you approve of might also help. These are methods I try to use in dealing with posts in which you act in ways that I do not agree with. I hope they will bring you some peace.Shauna > > > > > > > > > > I think " get me alone " here doesn't mean quiet contemplation time > > > which, as you suggest is a good thing. It's about turning your back on > > > your program and support network until you're isolated and vulnerable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > < serv . gif > > > > > > > > > > > I'm with Jim on this. I have always assumed that these admonitions > > > about " my disease wants to get me alone so it can kill me " as preemptive > > > of the nasty outcomes of fusion and avoidance--to use ACT language. > > > > > > > > > > Sometimes, when things are

said out loud, with a bit of recognizing > > > them as thoughts perspective changes a bit ( " so the other day, I was > > > alone in my apartment and my head says to me...one drink? What's the big > > > deal? " ). If someone were to say that out loud at an AA meeting, they > > > would get a chuckle. Hearing it, they might chuckle themselves. > > > > > > > > > > Cut yourself off from social support. Spend a bunch of time alone > > > ruminating/worrying. What happens? We are social creatures and spending > > > a lot of time cut off is bad medicine. Alone and ruminating/worrying is > > > a formula for bad outcomes. > > > > > > > > > > Time for meditation, sure. Demonstrably good stuff. Buddhists say so > > > (well, really, all the great spiritual traditions). AA says

so. And, > > > psychological science says so. As long as people get the distinction > > > between meditation and rumination:-) > > > > > > > > > > In my most recent book I talk about a lot of great defusion and > > > active life engagement found in AA: here is a snippet from The Wisdom to > > > Know the Difference > > > > > > > > http://www.amazon.com/ gp /product/1572249285/ref=as_ li _ tf _ tl ? ie =UTF8 & tag=\ > > > mindfortwo20 & linkCode =as2 & camp=1789 & creative=9325 & creativeASIN =157224928\ > > > 5< http://www.amazon.com/ gp /product/1572249285/ref=as_ li _ tf _ tl ? ie =UTF8 & tag=mindfortwo20 & linkCode

=as2 & camp=1789 & creative=9325 & creativeASIN =1572249285 > > > > > > > > > " There are many other 12-step sayings you might hear in meetings > > > that contain this admonishment to hold what we think lightly. " You > > > have a thinking problem, not a drinking problem " points to a > > > tendency to get caught in worry and rumination and to lose direct > > > contact with your own life. It is, of course, really a warning against > > > overthinking , not thinking per se . The problem of fusion is a problem of > > > letting thinking about life substitute for life. In keeping with the > > > oftentimes self-deprecating humor found around AA, a favorite saying is, > > > " Don't go into your mind alone; it's not a safe > > > neighborhood, " and there's this version from

Narcotics > > > Anonymous: " An addict alone is in bad company. " These sayings > > > can be interpreted as negative self-statements, but if they are held > > > lightly, and in kindness, what they point toward is the human tendency > > > to become so engaged in analysis and speculation that we lose contact > > > with the directly experienced world. When you hear a recovering > > > alcoholic, sitting in a church basement at an AA meeting, say with a > > > smile on his or her face, " My best thinking got me here, " you > > > are not looking at self-hatred, you are looking at someone who has > > > learned through trial and error that sometimes their best thinking on a > > > given day is a great source of amusement on another day. Sayings like > > > " Don't intellectualize, utilize " are

calls to action. > > > Thinking about recovery is not the same as active recovery. AA is a > > > program of action, not a program of thinking about action. Ponder, for > > > example, the saying " The three most dangerous words for an > > > alcoholic†" `I've been thinking.' " As with the other 12-step > > > sayings, even the saying ought to be held lightly. No one, and I mean no > > > one, with an ounce of sense thinks that you should give up planning and > > > thinking. But as the Serenity Prayer suggests, recognize the things you > > > cannot change. And if you find yourself grinding through some thoughts > > > over and over and over and over, and, yes, over†" maybe, just maybe it > > > is time to let go of thinking for a moment and choose some small act, or > > > series of acts,

that serves your values. As they say in AA, " Do the > > > next right thing. " This is not just AA folk wisdom; there is a > > > substantial body of scientific evidence that shows that worry and rumi- > > > nation†" a couple of very popular ways to get lost in > > > thought†" produce bad outcomes. And there is also a convincing body of > > > evidence that suggests that moving your feet and actually doing things > > > (sometimes called behavioral activation by psychologists) is very good > > > medicine. In closing, on this little note, consider this AA adage: > > > " In AA you live your way into a new way of thinking. You do not > > > think your way into a new way of living. " > > > > > By the way, for people who do not like 12-step, the pieces of the > > > book that are about

12-step/AA connections are set in sections separate > > > from the general text. People can easily read them or not. The main > > > stream of the text is ACT oriented recovery without AA, but the two > > > streams are crafted to be compatible and complimentary. > > > > > > > > > > with warm regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > G. > > > > > 205 Peabody Building > > > > > Psychology Department > > > > > University of Mississippi > > > > > Oxford, MS 38677 > > > > > > > > > > ph : > > > > > fax: > > > > > > > > > > academic homepage: > > > > > www. olemiss . edu /working/ kwilson / kwilson .

htm > > > > > > > > > > also check out > > > > > www. onelifellc .com > > > > > www. mindfulnessfortwo .com > > > > > www.facebook.com/ kellygwilson > > > > > www. tastybehaviorism .com > > > > > www. abnormalwootwoot .com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>

[Guest guest]

Hi, hope this answers your question to some extent... a little long...I came to ACT with the conviction that there where good thoughts and bad thoughts. That it was essential for me and everybody to have right, good, reasonable thoughts. That it was very important that my mind was in the right gear so to say. This idea kept me busy - no surprise there. I had to constantly monitor my mind and my thoughts and steer them in multiple ways - so that I had the right kind of focus, had a forward motion etc... The opposite would be if I had the wrong kind of focus, if my mind was sluggish, or too hyper etc...Nowadays, and this has come gradually with much practice - a LOT of practice, I now don't care so much what I think. Sometimes I think nice thoughts, sometimes not. Sometimes I have dynamic thoughts, and a feel dynamic, sometimes not. I have all these kinds of thoughts and feelings, but I don't identify myself with them so much. They're more part of the scenery, if you get me. That doesn't mean that they're not extremely uncomfortable at times - they sure are. But I don't try to change them anymore. I would say that I ride them like I would ride a mechanic bull, or a golf cart - depending on the nature of the thoughts and feelings. I don't try to choose which thoughts I have. I don't try to prolong them - at least not consciously - or try to focus on any particular thought. While I ride the mechanic bull (extremely uncomfortable thoughts or feelings) I stay with myself instead of trying to change the content of the thoughts. "Myself" is hard to define, but it would be "me" - which usually feels kind of soft or tender. Like a little kid. What I do is - experience the thoughts and feelings - and also what people have done to me or haven't done that I'm upset about - and then alternate with going ahead and doing what works in my life at the moment - like making place for them, while paying attention to my work, or the TV or whatever. Take care,Henrik Hi , has anyone , after putting act therapy in practice for themselvesbecame more aware of their thoughts, and in time become more honest withthemselves and maybe others, after listening to all the crap that we sayto ourselves, and realising the amount of lies that consume the mind,and at the same time what this all means is , is it possible to livewhere you can see others lying to you , through you just observing theirsayings . I wonder in wonder.Sent from Yahoo!7 Mail on Android;To: <ACT_for_the_Public >;Subject: Re: Re: Mindfully Bypassing Feeling,Contacting Prior InsightSent: Sun, Mar 11, 2012 10:33:39 PM I wasn't sure about it being between Terry and me either. I don't haveany quarrel with Terry, her membership in AA or anything else.> > > > > Thank you Shauna. I am doing that. I am fully at peace now and have> discovered why I am responding to such triggers inappropriately (it's> very personal, so I can't share it here).> > > > > Not sure what you mean about this being between those two people. My> comment was between Terry and myself, was it not, and yet you are> jumping in with a comment/judgment of your own for me. I'm cool with> that, but it does seem a bit inconsistent with your viewpoint about> stuff being between the conversants. This is a public list. I believe> anyone has the right to say anything to anyone about anything at> anytime. Sure, we need to keep it civil, and I did mess up there.> > > > > Helena> > > > > > > > > From:"shaunacateacher" <>> To:"ACT for the Public" <>> Sent:Sunday, March 11, 2012 1:41:23 PM> Subject: Re: Mindfully Bypassing Feeling,> Contacting Prior Insight> > > > Helena,> Perhaps this is between Terry and Jim. If you are feeling scared or> judgemental, you could deal with those feelings and your thoughts> about this interaction by using some ACT processes. Defusion comes to> mind, but accepting that people will not always act in ways that you> approve of might also help. These are methods I try to use in dealing> with posts in which you act in ways that I do not agree with. I hope> they will bring you some peace.> Shauna> > > > > > > >> > > > > > I think "get me alone" here doesn't mean quiet contemplation> > > > > > time> > > > which, as you suggest is a good thing. It's about turning your> > > > back on> > > > your program and support network until you're isolated and> > > > vulnerable.> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > Jim> > > > > >> > > > > > .> > > > > > < serv . gif >> > > > > >> > > > > > I'm with Jim on this. I have always assumed that these> > > > > > admonitions> > > > about "my disease wants to get me alone so it can kill me" as> > > > preemptive> > > > of the nasty outcomes of fusion and avoidance--to use ACT> > > > language.> > > > > >> > > > > > Sometimes, when things are said out loud, with a bit of> > > > > > recognizing> > > > them as thoughts perspective changes a bit ("so the other day, I> > > > was> > > > alone in my apartment and my head says to me...one drink? What's> > > > the big> > > > deal?"). If someone were to say that out loud at an AA meeting,> > > > they> > > > would get a chuckle. Hearing it, they might chuckle themselves.> > > > > >> > > > > > Cut yourself off from social support. Spend a bunch of time> > > > > > alone> > > > ruminating/worrying. What happens? We are social creatures and> > > > spending> > > > a lot of time cut off is bad medicine. Alone and> > > > ruminating/worrying is> > > > a formula for bad outcomes.> > > > > >> > > > > > Time for meditation, sure. Demonstrably good stuff.> > > > > > Buddhists say so> > > > (well, really, all the great spiritual traditions). AA says so.> > > > And,> > > > psychological science says so. As long as people get the> > > > distinction> > > > between meditation and rumination:-)> > > > > >> > > > > > In my most recent book I talk about a lot of great defusion> > > > > > and> > > > active life engagement found in AA: here is a snippet from The> > > > Wisdom to> > > > Know the Difference> > > > > >> > > > http://www.amazon.com/ gp /product/1572249285/ref=as_ li _ tf> > > > _ tl ? ie =UTF8 & tag=\> > > > mindfortwo20 & linkCode =as2 & camp=1789 & creative=9325 & > > > > creativeASIN =157224928\> > > > 5< http://www.amazon.com/ gp /product/1572249285/ref=as_ li _> > > > tf _ tl ? ie =UTF8 & tag=mindfortwo20 & linkCode> > > > =as2 & camp=1789 & creative=9325 & creativeASIN =1572249285 >> > > >> > > > > > "There are many other 12-step sayings you might hear in> > > > > > meetings> > > > that contain this admonishment to hold what we think lightly.> > > > "You> > > > have a thinking problem, not a drinking problem" points to a> > > > tendency to get caught in worry and rumination and to lose> > > > direct> > > > contact with your own life. It is, of course, really a warning> > > > against> > > > overthinking , not thinking per se . The problem of fusion is a> > > > problem of> > > > letting thinking about life substitute for life. In keeping with> > > > the> > > > oftentimes self-deprecating humor found around AA, a favorite> > > > saying is,> > > > "Don't go into your mind alone; it's not a safe> > > > neighborhood," and there's this version from Narcotics> > > > Anonymous: "An addict alone is in bad company." These sayings> > > > can be interpreted as negative self-statements, but if they are> > > > held> > > > lightly, and in kindness, what they point toward is the human> > > > tendency> > > > to become so engaged in analysis and speculation that we lose> > > > contact> > > > with the directly experienced world. When you hear a recovering> > > > alcoholic, sitting in a church basement at an AA meeting, say> > > > with a> > > > smile on his or her face, "My best thinking got me here," you> > > > are not looking at self-hatred, you are looking at someone who> > > > has> > > > learned through trial and error that sometimes their best> > > > thinking on a> > > > given day is a great source of amusement on another day. Sayings> > > > like> > > > "Don't intellectualize, utilize" are calls to action.> > > > Thinking about recovery is not the same as active recovery. AA> > > > is a> > > > program of action, not a program of thinking about action.> > > > Ponder, for> > > > example, the saying "The three most dangerous words for an> > > > alcoholicâ€"`I've been thinking.'" As with the other 12-step> > > > sayings, even the saying ought to be held lightly. No one, and I> > > > mean no> > > > one, with an ounce of sense thinks that you should give up> > > > planning and> > > > thinking. But as the Serenity Prayer suggests, recognize the> > > > things you> > > > cannot change. And if you find yourself grinding through some> > > > thoughts> > > > over and over and over and over, and, yes, overâ€"maybe, just> > > > maybe it> > > > is time to let go of thinking for a moment and choose some small> > > > act, or> > > > series of acts, that serves your values. As they say in AA, "Do> > > > the> > > > next right thing." This is not just AA folk wisdom; there is a> > > > substantial body of scientific evidence that shows that worry> > > > and rumi-> > > > nationâ€"a couple of very popular ways to get lost in> > > > thoughtâ€"produce bad outcomes. And there is also a convincing> > > > body of> > > > evidence that suggests that moving your feet and actually doing> > > > things> > > > (sometimes called behavioral activation by psychologists) is> > > > very good> > > > medicine. In closing, on this little note, consider this AA> > > > adage:> > > > "In AA you live your way into a new way of thinking. You do not> > > > think your way into a new way of living."> > > > > > By the way, for people who do not like 12-step, the pieces> > > > > > of the> > > > book that are about 12-step/AA connections are set in sections> > > > separate> > > > from the general text. People can easily read them or not. The> > > > main> > > > stream of the text is ACT oriented recovery without AA, but the> > > > two> > > > streams are crafted to be compatible and complimentary.> > > > > >> > > > > > with warm regards,> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > G. > > > > > > 205 Peabody Building> > > > > > Psychology Department> > > > > > University of Mississippi> > > > > > Oxford, MS 38677> > > > > >> > > > > > ph : > > > > > > fax: > > > > > >> > > > > > academic homepage:> > > > > > www. olemiss . edu /working/ kwilson / kwilson . htm> > > > > >> > > > > > also check out> > > > > > www. onelifellc .com> > > > > > www. mindfulnessfortwo .com> > > > > > http://www.facebook.com/ kellygwilson> > > > > > www. tastybehaviorism .com> > > > > > www. abnormalwootwoot .com> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> >> > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Thanks Terry,

I'd be happy to answer.

I guess it depends upon what you mean by " successful. " If you quit

drinking on your own but the effort leaves you feeling " restless,

irritable and discontented, " that doesn't seem like success, at least

to me. Others may disagree and that's their perogative. All I know is

that the times I tried to moderate in this " white knuckle " style that

were not fun for me. On the other hand, there are people who quit in

some other non-AA way and seem to do fine. I'm thinking of the

American comedian, Sid Caesar who stopped drinking and drugs after

over 2 decades of continuous abuse by means of a compassionate

" self-talk " therapy he invented himself. I'd call him a success

because he stopped and was happy afterwards.

Best,

Jim

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 3:35 PM, theresa.linder@...

wrote:

>

>

>

> Jim,

>

> Thanks. Yes, certainly no quarrel. But still a two part question: What do you

mean when you say AA is " especially unsuitable for people who are successful

stopping or moderating some other way. " (?). And please...where is this

assertion grounded from (e.g., your own experience, a reading, etc)?

>

>

>

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I think " get me alone " here doesn't mean quiet contemplation

time

> > > > > > which, as you suggest is a good thing. It's about turning your back

on

> > > > > > your program and support network until you're isolated and

vulnerable.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Jim

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > .

> > > > > > > > < serv . gif >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I'm with Jim on this. I have always assumed that these

admonitions

> > > > > > about " my disease wants to get me alone so it can kill me " as

preemptive

> > > > > > of the nasty outcomes of fusion and avoidance--to use ACT language.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Sometimes, when things are said out loud, with a bit of

recognizing

> > > > > > them as thoughts perspective changes a bit ( " so the other day, I was

> > > > > > alone in my apartment and my head says to me...one drink? What's the

big

> > > > > > deal? " ). If someone were to say that out loud at an AA meeting, they

> > > > > > would get a chuckle. Hearing it, they might chuckle themselves.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Cut yourself off from social support. Spend a bunch of time

alone

> > > > > > ruminating/worrying. What happens? We are social creatures and

spending

> > > > > > a lot of time cut off is bad medicine. Alone and ruminating/worrying

is

> > > > > > a formula for bad outcomes.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Time for meditation, sure. Demonstrably good stuff. Buddhists

say so

> > > > > > (well, really, all the great spiritual traditions). AA says so. And,

> > > > > > psychological science says so. As long as people get the distinction

> > > > > > between meditation and rumination:-)

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > In my most recent book I talk about a lot of great defusion and

> > > > > > active life engagement found in AA: here is a snippet from The

Wisdom to

> > > > > > Know the Difference

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > http://www.amazon.com/ gp /product/1572249285/ref=as_ li _ tf _ tl ?

ie =UTF8 & tag=\

> > > > > > mindfortwo20 & linkCode =as2 & camp=1789 & creative=9325 & creativeASIN

=157224928\

> > > > > > 5< http://www.amazon.com/ gp /product/1572249285/ref=as_ li _ tf _

tl ? ie =UTF8 & tag=mindfortwo20 & linkCode =as2 & camp=1789 & creative=9325 &

creativeASIN =1572249285 >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > > " There are many other 12-step sayings you might hear in meetings

> > > > > > that contain this admonishment to hold what we think lightly. " You

> > > > > > have a thinking problem, not a drinking problem " points to a

> > > > > > tendency to get caught in worry and rumination and to lose direct

> > > > > > contact with your own life. It is, of course, really a warning

against

> > > > > > overthinking , not thinking per se . The problem of fusion is a

problem of

> > > > > > letting thinking about life substitute for life. In keeping with the

> > > > > > oftentimes self-deprecating humor found around AA, a favorite saying

is,

> > > > > > " Don't go into your mind alone; it's not a safe

> > > > > > neighborhood, " and there's this version from Narcotics

> > > > > > Anonymous: " An addict alone is in bad company. " These sayings

> > > > > > can be interpreted as negative self-statements, but if they are held

> > > > > > lightly, and in kindness, what they point toward is the human

tendency

> > > > > > to become so engaged in analysis and speculation that we lose

contact

> > > > > > with the directly experienced world. When you hear a recovering

> > > > > > alcoholic, sitting in a church basement at an AA meeting, say with a

> > > > > > smile on his or her face, " My best thinking got me here, " you

> > > > > > are not looking at self-hatred, you are looking at someone who has

> > > > > > learned through trial and error that sometimes their best thinking

on a

> > > > > > given day is a great source of amusement on another day. Sayings

like

> > > > > > " Don't intellectualize, utilize " are calls to action.

> > > > > > Thinking about recovery is not the same as active recovery. AA is a

> > > > > > program of action, not a program of thinking about action. Ponder,

for

> > > > > > example, the saying " The three most dangerous words for an

> > > > > > alcoholic†" `I've been thinking.' " As with the other 12-step

> > > > > > sayings, even the saying ought to be held lightly. No one, and I

mean no

> > > > > > one, with an ounce of sense thinks that you should give up planning

and

> > > > > > thinking. But as the Serenity Prayer suggests, recognize the things

you

> > > > > > cannot change. And if you find yourself grinding through some

thoughts

> > > > > > over and over and over and over, and, yes, over†" maybe, just maybe

it

> > > > > > is time to let go of thinking for a moment and choose some small

act, or

> > > > > > series of acts, that serves your values. As they say in AA, " Do the

> > > > > > next right thing. " This is not just AA folk wisdom; there is a

> > > > > > substantial body of scientific evidence that shows that worry and

rumi-

> > > > > > nation†" a couple of very popular ways to get lost in

> > > > > > thought†" produce bad outcomes. And there is also a convincing body

of

> > > > > > evidence that suggests that moving your feet and actually doing

things

> > > > > > (sometimes called behavioral activation by psychologists) is very

good

> > > > > > medicine. In closing, on this little note, consider this AA adage:

> > > > > > " In AA you live your way into a new way of thinking. You do not

> > > > > > think your way into a new way of living. "

> > > > > > > > By the way, for people who do not like 12-step, the pieces of

the

> > > > > > book that are about 12-step/AA connections are set in sections

separate

> > > > > > from the general text. People can easily read them or not. The main

> > > > > > stream of the text is ACT oriented recovery without AA, but the two

> > > > > > streams are crafted to be compatible and complimentary.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > with warm regards,

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > G.

> > > > > > > > 205 Peabody Building

> > > > > > > > Psychology Department

> > > > > > > > University of Mississippi

> > > > > > > > Oxford, MS 38677

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > ph :

> > > > > > > > fax:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > academic homepage:

> > > > > > > > www. olemiss . edu /working/ kwilson / kwilson . htm

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > also check out

> > > > > > > > www. onelifellc .com

> > > > > > > > www. mindfulnessfortwo .com

> > > > > > > > www.facebook.com/ kellygwilson

> > > > > > > > www. tastybehaviorism .com

> > > > > > > > www. abnormalwootwoot .com

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

By the way, the " you " in the previous post was not you, but " one "

J

> Thanks Terry,

> I'd be happy to answer.

> I guess it depends upon what you mean by " successful. " If you quit

> drinking on your own but the effort leaves you feeling " restless,

> irritable and discontented, " that doesn't seem like success, at least

> to me. Others may disagree and that's their perogative. All I know is

> that the times I tried to moderate in this " white knuckle " style that

> were not fun for me. On the other hand, there are people who quit in

> some other non-AA way and seem to do fine. I'm thinking of the

> American comedian, Sid Caesar who stopped drinking and drugs after

> over 2 decades of continuous abuse by means of a compassionate

> " self-talk " therapy he invented himself. I'd call him a success

> because he stopped and was happy afterwards.

>

> Best,

> Jim

>

>

>

> On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 3:35 PM, theresa.linder@...

> wrote:

>>

>>

>>

>> Jim,

>>

>> Thanks. Yes, certainly no quarrel. But still a two part question: What do you

mean when you say AA is " especially unsuitable for people who are successful

stopping or moderating some other way. " (?). And please...where is this

assertion grounded from (e.g., your own experience, a reading, etc)?

>>

>>

>>

>> > > > > > > >

>> > > > > > > > I think " get me alone " here doesn't mean quiet contemplation

time

>> > > > > > which, as you suggest is a good thing. It's about turning your back

on

>> > > > > > your program and support network until you're isolated and

vulnerable.

>> > > > > > > >

>> > > > > > > >

>> > > > > > > > Jim

>> > > > > > > >

>> > > > > > > > .

>> > > > > > > > < serv . gif >

>> > > > > > > >

>> > > > > > > > I'm with Jim on this. I have always assumed that these

admonitions

>> > > > > > about " my disease wants to get me alone so it can kill me " as

preemptive

>> > > > > > of the nasty outcomes of fusion and avoidance--to use ACT language.

>> > > > > > > >

>> > > > > > > > Sometimes, when things are said out loud, with a bit of

recognizing

>> > > > > > them as thoughts perspective changes a bit ( " so the other day, I

was

>> > > > > > alone in my apartment and my head says to me...one drink? What's

the big

>> > > > > > deal? " ). If someone were to say that out loud at an AA meeting,

they

>> > > > > > would get a chuckle. Hearing it, they might chuckle themselves.

>> > > > > > > >

>> > > > > > > > Cut yourself off from social support. Spend a bunch of time

alone

>> > > > > > ruminating/worrying. What happens? We are social creatures and

spending

>> > > > > > a lot of time cut off is bad medicine. Alone and

ruminating/worrying is

>> > > > > > a formula for bad outcomes.

>> > > > > > > >

>> > > > > > > > Time for meditation, sure. Demonstrably good stuff. Buddhists

say so

>> > > > > > (well, really, all the great spiritual traditions). AA says so.

And,

>> > > > > > psychological science says so. As long as people get the

distinction

>> > > > > > between meditation and rumination:-)

>> > > > > > > >

>> > > > > > > > In my most recent book I talk about a lot of great defusion and

>> > > > > > active life engagement found in AA: here is a snippet from The

Wisdom to

>> > > > > > Know the Difference

>> > > > > > > >

>> > > > > > http://www.amazon.com/ gp /product/1572249285/ref=as_ li _ tf _ tl

? ie =UTF8 & tag=\

>> > > > > > mindfortwo20 & linkCode =as2 & camp=1789 & creative=9325 & creativeASIN

=157224928\

>> > > > > > 5< http://www.amazon.com/ gp /product/1572249285/ref=as_ li _ tf _

tl ? ie =UTF8 & tag=mindfortwo20 & linkCode =as2 & camp=1789 & creative=9325 &

creativeASIN =1572249285 >

>> > > > > >

>> > > > > > > > " There are many other 12-step sayings you might hear in

meetings

>> > > > > > that contain this admonishment to hold what we think lightly. " You

>> > > > > > have a thinking problem, not a drinking problem " points to a

>> > > > > > tendency to get caught in worry and rumination and to lose direct

>> > > > > > contact with your own life. It is, of course, really a warning

against

>> > > > > > overthinking , not thinking per se . The problem of fusion is a

problem of

>> > > > > > letting thinking about life substitute for life. In keeping with

the

>> > > > > > oftentimes self-deprecating humor found around AA, a favorite

saying is,

>> > > > > > " Don't go into your mind alone; it's not a safe

>> > > > > > neighborhood, " and there's this version from Narcotics

>> > > > > > Anonymous: " An addict alone is in bad company. " These sayings

>> > > > > > can be interpreted as negative self-statements, but if they are

held

>> > > > > > lightly, and in kindness, what they point toward is the human

tendency

>> > > > > > to become so engaged in analysis and speculation that we lose

contact

>> > > > > > with the directly experienced world. When you hear a recovering

>> > > > > > alcoholic, sitting in a church basement at an AA meeting, say with

a

>> > > > > > smile on his or her face, " My best thinking got me here, " you

>> > > > > > are not looking at self-hatred, you are looking at someone who has

>> > > > > > learned through trial and error that sometimes their best thinking

on a

>> > > > > > given day is a great source of amusement on another day. Sayings

like

>> > > > > > " Don't intellectualize, utilize " are calls to action.

>> > > > > > Thinking about recovery is not the same as active recovery. AA is a

>> > > > > > program of action, not a program of thinking about action. Ponder,

for

>> > > > > > example, the saying " The three most dangerous words for an

>> > > > > > alcoholic†" `I've been thinking.' " As with the other 12-step

>> > > > > > sayings, even the saying ought to be held lightly. No one, and I

mean no

>> > > > > > one, with an ounce of sense thinks that you should give up planning

and

>> > > > > > thinking. But as the Serenity Prayer suggests, recognize the things

you

>> > > > > > cannot change. And if you find yourself grinding through some

thoughts

>> > > > > > over and over and over and over, and, yes, over†" maybe, just maybe

it

>> > > > > > is time to let go of thinking for a moment and choose some small

act, or

>> > > > > > series of acts, that serves your values. As they say in AA, " Do the

>> > > > > > next right thing. " This is not just AA folk wisdom; there is a

>> > > > > > substantial body of scientific evidence that shows that worry and

rumi-

>> > > > > > nation†" a couple of very popular ways to get lost in

>> > > > > > thought†" produce bad outcomes. And there is also a convincing body

of

>> > > > > > evidence that suggests that moving your feet and actually doing

things

>> > > > > > (sometimes called behavioral activation by psychologists) is very

good

>> > > > > > medicine. In closing, on this little note, consider this AA adage:

>> > > > > > " In AA you live your way into a new way of thinking. You do not

>> > > > > > think your way into a new way of living. "

>> > > > > > > > By the way, for people who do not like 12-step, the pieces of

the

>> > > > > > book that are about 12-step/AA connections are set in sections

separate

>> > > > > > from the general text. People can easily read them or not. The main

>> > > > > > stream of the text is ACT oriented recovery without AA, but the two

>> > > > > > streams are crafted to be compatible and complimentary.

>> > > > > > > >

>> > > > > > > > with warm regards,

>> > > > > > > >

>> > > > > > > >

>> > > > > > > > G.

>> > > > > > > > 205 Peabody Building

>> > > > > > > > Psychology Department

>> > > > > > > > University of Mississippi

>> > > > > > > > Oxford, MS 38677

>> > > > > > > >

>> > > > > > > > ph :

>> > > > > > > > fax:

>> > > > > > > >

>> > > > > > > > academic homepage:

>> > > > > > > > www. olemiss . edu /working/ kwilson / kwilson . htm

>> > > > > > > >

>> > > > > > > > also check out

>> > > > > > > > www. onelifellc .com

>> > > > > > > > www. mindfulnessfortwo .com

>> > > > > > > > www.facebook.com/ kellygwilson

>> > > > > > > > www. tastybehaviorism .com

>> > > > > > > > www. abnormalwootwoot .com

>> > > > > > > >

>> > > > > > > >

>> > > > > > > >

>> > > > > > > >

>> > > > > > >

>> > > > > >

>> > > > > >

>> > > > > >

>> > > > >

>> > > >

>> > >

>> > >

>> > >

>> > >

>> >

>>

>>

[Guest guest]

Oh good lord, Terry. Is this deep textual cross-examination of something I banged out one afternoon over coffee really helpful?

 

Thanks Jim. Oh sure. It's one thing to say 12-Steps are not for everyone and absolutely--go with what works. And quite another to add: " 12-Steps are potentially problematic for population x, y, z. " . I mean, do you know that Sid (or others) went on and found 12-Steps especially unsuitable, problematic?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I think " get me alone " here doesn't mean quiet contemplation time

> > > > > > > which, as you suggest is a good thing. It's about turning your back on

> > > > > > > your program and support network until you're isolated and vulnerable.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Jim

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > .

> > > > > > > > > < serv . gif >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I'm with Jim on this. I have always assumed that these admonitions

> > > > > > > about " my disease wants to get me alone so it can kill me " as preemptive

> > > > > > > of the nasty outcomes of fusion and avoidance--to use ACT language.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Sometimes, when things are said out loud, with a bit of recognizing

> > > > > > > them as thoughts perspective changes a bit ( " so the other day, I was

> > > > > > > alone in my apartment and my head says to me...one drink? What's the big

> > > > > > > deal? " ). If someone were to say that out loud at an AA meeting, they

> > > > > > > would get a chuckle. Hearing it, they might chuckle themselves.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Cut yourself off from social support. Spend a bunch of time alone

> > > > > > > ruminating/worrying. What happens? We are social creatures and spending

> > > > > > > a lot of time cut off is bad medicine. Alone and ruminating/worrying is

> > > > > > > a formula for bad outcomes.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Time for meditation, sure. Demonstrably good stuff. Buddhists say so

> > > > > > > (well, really, all the great spiritual traditions). AA says so. And,

> > > > > > > psychological science says so. As long as people get the distinction

> > > > > > > between meditation and rumination:-)

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > In my most recent book I talk about a lot of great defusion and

> > > > > > > active life engagement found in AA: here is a snippet from The Wisdom to

> > > > > > > Know the Difference

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > http://www.amazon.com/ gp /product/1572249285/ref=as_ li _ tf _ tl ? ie =UTF8 & tag=\

> > > > > > > mindfortwo20 & linkCode =as2 & camp=1789 & creative=9325 & creativeASIN =157224928\

> > > > > > > 5< http://www.amazon.com/ gp /product/1572249285/ref=as_ li _ tf _ tl ? ie =UTF8 & tag=mindfortwo20 & linkCode =as2 & camp=1789 & creative=9325 & creativeASIN =1572249285 >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > " There are many other 12-step sayings you might hear in meetings

> > > > > > > that contain this admonishment to hold what we think lightly. " You

> > > > > > > have a thinking problem, not a drinking problem " points to a

> > > > > > > tendency to get caught in worry and rumination and to lose direct

> > > > > > > contact with your own life. It is, of course, really a warning against

> > > > > > > overthinking , not thinking per se . The problem of fusion is a problem of

> > > > > > > letting thinking about life substitute for life. In keeping with the

> > > > > > > oftentimes self-deprecating humor found around AA, a favorite saying is,

> > > > > > > " Don't go into your mind alone; it's not a safe

> > > > > > > neighborhood, " and there's this version from Narcotics

> > > > > > > Anonymous: " An addict alone is in bad company. " These sayings

> > > > > > > can be interpreted as negative self-statements, but if they are held

> > > > > > > lightly, and in kindness, what they point toward is the human tendency

> > > > > > > to become so engaged in analysis and speculation that we lose contact

> > > > > > > with the directly experienced world. When you hear a recovering

> > > > > > > alcoholic, sitting in a church basement at an AA meeting, say with a

> > > > > > > smile on his or her face, " My best thinking got me here, " you

> > > > > > > are not looking at self-hatred, you are looking at someone who has

> > > > > > > learned through trial and error that sometimes their best thinking on a

> > > > > > > given day is a great source of amusement on another day. Sayings like

> > > > > > > " Don't intellectualize, utilize " are calls to action.

> > > > > > > Thinking about recovery is not the same as active recovery. AA is a

> > > > > > > program of action, not a program of thinking about action. Ponder, for

> > > > > > > example, the saying " The three most dangerous words for an

> > > > > > > alcoholic†" `I've been thinking.' " As with the other 12-step

> > > > > > > sayings, even the saying ought to be held lightly. No one, and I mean no

> > > > > > > one, with an ounce of sense thinks that you should give up planning and

> > > > > > > thinking. But as the Serenity Prayer suggests, recognize the things you

> > > > > > > cannot change. And if you find yourself grinding through some thoughts

> > > > > > > over and over and over and over, and, yes, over†" maybe, just maybe it

> > > > > > > is time to let go of thinking for a moment and choose some small act, or

> > > > > > > series of acts, that serves your values. As they say in AA, " Do the

> > > > > > > next right thing. " This is not just AA folk wisdom; there is a

> > > > > > > substantial body of scientific evidence that shows that worry and rumi-

> > > > > > > nation†" a couple of very popular ways to get lost in

> > > > > > > thought†" produce bad outcomes. And there is also a convincing body of

> > > > > > > evidence that suggests that moving your feet and actually doing things

> > > > > > > (sometimes called behavioral activation by psychologists) is very good

> > > > > > > medicine. In closing, on this little note, consider this AA adage:

> > > > > > > " In AA you live your way into a new way of thinking. You do not

> > > > > > > think your way into a new way of living. "

> > > > > > > > > By the way, for people who do not like 12-step, the pieces of the

> > > > > > > book that are about 12-step/AA connections are set in sections separate

> > > > > > > from the general text. People can easily read them or not. The main

> > > > > > > stream of the text is ACT oriented recovery without AA, but the two

> > > > > > > streams are crafted to be compatible and complimentary.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > with warm regards,

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > G.

> > > > > > > > > 205 Peabody Building

> > > > > > > > > Psychology Department

> > > > > > > > > University of Mississippi

> > > > > > > > > Oxford, MS 38677

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > ph :

> > > > > > > > > fax:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > academic homepage:

> > > > > > > > > www. olemiss . edu /working/ kwilson / kwilson . htm

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > also check out

> > > > > > > > > www. onelifellc .com

> > > > > > > > > www. mindfulnessfortwo .com

> > > > > > > > > www.facebook.com/ kellygwilson

> > > > > > > > > www. tastybehaviorism .com

> > > > > > > > > www. abnormalwootwoot .com

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Terry and Lou,

You have opened my eyes with this exchange between the two of you.

You are my teachers. I am grateful.Helena

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 5:42:36 PMSubject: Re: Mindfully Bypassing Feeling, Contacting Prior Insight

I may be alone in my noticing things that may or may not have anything to do with a desire to correct. And that's okay too.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think "get me alone" here doesn't mean quiet> > > > > > contemplation time> > > > > > > > > > > > > which, as you suggest is a good thing. It's about turning> > > > > > your back on> > > > > > > > > > > > > your program and support network until you're isolated and> > > > > > vulnerable.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jim> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > .> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < serv . gif >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm with Jim on this. I have always assumed that these> > > > > > admonitions> > > > > > > > > > > > > about "my disease wants to get me alone so it can kill me"> > > > > > as preemptive> > > > > > > > > > > > > of the nasty outcomes of fusion and avoidance--to use ACT> > > > > > language.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sometimes, when things are said out loud, with a bit of> > > > > > recognizing> > > > > > > > > > > > > them as thoughts perspective changes a bit ("so the other> > > > > > day, I was> > > > > > > > > > > > > alone in my apartment and my head says to me...one drink?> > > > > > What's the big> > > > > > > > > > > > > deal?"). If someone were to say that out loud at an AA> > > > > > meeting, they> > > > > > > > > > > > > would get a chuckle. Hearing it, they might chuckle> > > > > > themselves.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cut yourself off from social support. Spend a bunch of> > > > > > time alone> > > > > > > > > > > > > ruminating/worrying. What happens? We are social creatures> > > > > > and spending> > > > > > > > > > > > > a lot of time cut off is bad medicine. Alone and> > > > > > ruminating/worrying is> > > > > > > > > > > > > a formula for bad outcomes.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Time for meditation, sure. Demonstrably good stuff.> > > > > > Buddhists say so> > > > > > > > > > > > > (well, really, all the great spiritual traditions). AA says> > > > > > so. And,> > > > > > > > > > > > > psychological science says so. As long as people get the> > > > > > distinction> > > > > > > > > > > > > between meditation and rumination:-)> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In my most recent book I talk about a lot of great> > > > > > defusion and> > > > > > > > > > > > > active life engagement found in AA: here is a snippet from> > > > > > The Wisdom to> > > > > > > > > > > > > Know the Difference> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.amazon.com/ gp /product/1572249285/ref=as_ li _> > > > > > tf _ tl ? ie =UTF8 & tag=\> > > > > > > > > > > > > mindfortwo20 & linkCode =as2 & camp=1789 & creative=9325 & > > > > > > creativeASIN =157224928\> > > > > > > > > > > > > 5< http://www.amazon.com/ gp /product/1572249285/ref=as_ li> > > > > > _ tf _ tl ? ie =UTF8 & tag=mindfortwo20 & linkCode> > > > > > =as2 & camp=1789 & creative=9325 & creativeASIN =1572249285 >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "There are many other 12-step sayings you might hear in> > > > > > meetings> > > > > > > > > > > > > that contain this admonishment to hold what we think> > > > > > lightly. "You> > > > > > > > > > > > > have a thinking problem, not a drinking problem" points to a> > > > > > > > > > > > > tendency to get caught in worry and rumination and to lose> > > > > > direct> > > > > > > > > > > > > contact with your own life. It is, of course, really a> > > > > > warning against> > > > > > > > > > > > > overthinking , not thinking per se . The problem of fusion> > > > > > is a problem of> > > > > > > > > > > > > letting thinking about life substitute for life. In keeping> > > > > > with the> > > > > > > > > > > > > oftentimes self-deprecating humor found around AA, a> > > > > > favorite saying is,> > > > > > > > > > > > > "Don't go into your mind alone; it's not a safe> > > > > > > > > > > > > neighborhood," and there's this version from Narcotics> > > > > > > > > > > > > Anonymous: "An addict alone is in bad company." These sayings> > > > > > > > > > > > > can be interpreted as negative self-statements, but if they> > > > > > are held> > > > > > > > > > > > > lightly, and in kindness, what they point toward is the> > > > > > human tendency> > > > > > > > > > > > > to become so engaged in analysis and speculation that we> > > > > > lose contact> > > > > > > > > > > > > with the directly experienced world. When you hear a> > > > > > recovering> > > > > > > > > > > > > alcoholic, sitting in a church basement at an AA meeting,> > > > > > say with a> > > > > > > > > > > > > smile on his or her face, "My best thinking got me here," you> > > > > > > > > > > > > are not looking at self-hatred, you are looking at someone> > > > > > who has> > > > > > > > > > > > > learned through trial and error that sometimes their best> > > > > > thinking on a> > > > > > > > > > > > > given day is a great source of amusement on another day.> > > > > > Sayings like> > > > > > > > > > > > > "Don't intellectualize, utilize" are calls to action.> > > > > > > > > > > > > Thinking about recovery is not the same as active recovery.> > > > > > AA is a> > > > > > > > > > > > > program of action, not a program of thinking about action.> > > > > > Ponder, for> > > > > > > > > > > > > example, the saying "The three most dangerous words for an> > > > > > > > > > > > > alcoholicâ€"`I've been thinking.'" As with the other 12-step> > > > > > > > > > > > > sayings, even the saying ought to be held lightly. No one,> > > > > > and I mean no> > > > > > > > > > > > > one, with an ounce of sense thinks that you should give up> > > > > > planning and> > > > > > > > > > > > > thinking. But as the Serenity Prayer suggests, recognize the> > > > > > things you> > > > > > > > > > > > > cannot change. And if you find yourself grinding through> > > > > > some thoughts> > > > > > > > > > > > > over and over and over and over, and, yes, overâ€"maybe,> > > > > > just maybe it> > > > > > > > > > > > > is time to let go of thinking for a moment and choose some> > > > > > small act, or> > > > > > > > > > > > > series of acts, that serves your values. As they say in AA,> > > > > > "Do the> > > > > > > > > > > > > next right thing." This is not just AA folk wisdom; there is> > > > > > a> > > > > > > > > > > > > substantial body of scientific evidence that shows that> > > > > > worry and rumi-> > > > > > > > > > > > > nationâ€"a couple of very popular ways to get lost in> > > > > > > > > > > > > thoughtâ€"produce bad outcomes. And there is also a> > > > > > convincing body of> > > > > > > > > > > > > evidence that suggests that moving your feet and actually> > > > > > doing things> > > > > > > > > > > > > (sometimes called behavioral activation by psychologists) is> > > > > > very good> > > > > > > > > > > > > medicine. In closing, on this little note, consider this AA> > > > > > adage:> > > > > > > > > > > > > "In AA you live your way into a new way of thinking. You do> > > > > > not> > > > > > > > > > > > > think your way into a new way of living."> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By the way, for people who do not like 12-step, the> > > > > > pieces of the> > > > > > > > > > > > > book that are about 12-step/AA connections are set in> > > > > > sections separate> > > > > > > > > > > > > from the general text. People can easily read them or not.> > > > > > The main> > > > > > > > > > > > > stream of the text is ACT oriented recovery without AA, but> > > > > > the two> > > > > > > > > > > > > streams are crafted to be compatible and complimentary.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with warm regards,> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > G. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 205 Peabody Building> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Psychology Department> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > University of Mississippi> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oxford, MS 38677> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ph : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fax: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > academic homepage:> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www. olemiss . edu /working/ kwilson / kwilson . htm> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > also check out> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www. onelifellc .com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www. mindfulnessfortwo .com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.facebook.com/ kellygwilson> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www. tastybehaviorism .com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www. abnormalwootwoot .com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

Apology accepted. Yes, it hurt a bit to feel so cornered but I'm grateful for the acknowledgement. Thanks. JimPS-- And yeah, now that the heat is off, I'll admit I don't think that AA is " especially unsuitable " for anyone with the desire to stop drinking, provided they want to go that route. 

 

Jim,

Sorry I indulged the content of your words here. I think it had something to do with the predictive stance here i heard: " especially unsuitable " . This contention as to who might be a suitable candidate for AA has been a source of much of my attention--and not saying always in a good way, either. Just to say sorry for the lopsidedness of my focus and uncomfortable feelings that would naturally come up for my pursing such a selfish conflict.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > I think " get me alone " here doesn't mean quiet

> > contemplation time

> > > > > > > > > which, as you suggest is a good thing. It's about turning

> > your back on

> > > > > > > > > your program and support network until you're isolated and

> > vulnerable.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Jim

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > .

> > > > > > > > > > > < serv . gif >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > I'm with Jim on this. I have always assumed that these

> > admonitions

> > > > > > > > > about " my disease wants to get me alone so it can kill me "

> > as preemptive

> > > > > > > > > of the nasty outcomes of fusion and avoidance--to use ACT

> > language.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Sometimes, when things are said out loud, with a bit of

> > recognizing

> > > > > > > > > them as thoughts perspective changes a bit ( " so the other

> > day, I was

> > > > > > > > > alone in my apartment and my head says to me...one drink?

> > What's the big

> > > > > > > > > deal? " ). If someone were to say that out loud at an AA

> > meeting, they

> > > > > > > > > would get a chuckle. Hearing it, they might chuckle

> > themselves.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Cut yourself off from social support. Spend a bunch of

> > time alone

> > > > > > > > > ruminating/worrying. What happens? We are social creatures

> > and spending

> > > > > > > > > a lot of time cut off is bad medicine. Alone and

> > ruminating/worrying is

> > > > > > > > > a formula for bad outcomes.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Time for meditation, sure. Demonstrably good stuff.

> > Buddhists say so

> > > > > > > > > (well, really, all the great spiritual traditions). AA says

> > so. And,

> > > > > > > > > psychological science says so. As long as people get the

> > distinction

> > > > > > > > > between meditation and rumination:-)

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > In my most recent book I talk about a lot of great

> > defusion and

> > > > > > > > > active life engagement found in AA: here is a snippet from

> > The Wisdom to

> > > > > > > > > Know the Difference

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > http://www.amazon.com/ gp /product/1572249285/ref=as_ li _

> > tf _ tl ? ie =UTF8 & tag=\

> > > > > > > > > mindfortwo20 & linkCode =as2 & camp=1789 & creative=9325 &

> > creativeASIN =157224928\

> > > > > > > > > 5< http://www.amazon.com/ gp /product/1572249285/ref=as_ li

> > _ tf _ tl ? ie =UTF8 & tag=mindfortwo20 & linkCode

> > =as2 & camp=1789 & creative=9325 & creativeASIN =1572249285 >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > " There are many other 12-step sayings you might hear in

> > meetings

> > > > > > > > > that contain this admonishment to hold what we think

> > lightly. " You

> > > > > > > > > have a thinking problem, not a drinking problem " points to a

> > > > > > > > > tendency to get caught in worry and rumination and to lose

> > direct

> > > > > > > > > contact with your own life. It is, of course, really a

> > warning against

> > > > > > > > > overthinking , not thinking per se . The problem of fusion

> > is a problem of

> > > > > > > > > letting thinking about life substitute for life. In keeping

> > with the

> > > > > > > > > oftentimes self-deprecating humor found around AA, a

> > favorite saying is,

> > > > > > > > > " Don't go into your mind alone; it's not a safe

> > > > > > > > > neighborhood, " and there's this version from Narcotics

> > > > > > > > > Anonymous: " An addict alone is in bad company. " These sayings

> > > > > > > > > can be interpreted as negative self-statements, but if they

> > are held

> > > > > > > > > lightly, and in kindness, what they point toward is the

> > human tendency

> > > > > > > > > to become so engaged in analysis and speculation that we

> > lose contact

> > > > > > > > > with the directly experienced world. When you hear a

> > recovering

> > > > > > > > > alcoholic, sitting in a church basement at an AA meeting,

> > say with a

> > > > > > > > > smile on his or her face, " My best thinking got me here, " you

> > > > > > > > > are not looking at self-hatred, you are looking at someone

> > who has

> > > > > > > > > learned through trial and error that sometimes their best

> > thinking on a

> > > > > > > > > given day is a great source of amusement on another day.

> > Sayings like

> > > > > > > > > " Don't intellectualize, utilize " are calls to action.

> > > > > > > > > Thinking about recovery is not the same as active recovery.

> > AA is a

> > > > > > > > > program of action, not a program of thinking about action.

> > Ponder, for

> > > > > > > > > example, the saying " The three most dangerous words for an

> > > > > > > > > alcoholic†" `I've been thinking.' " As with the other 12-step

> > > > > > > > > sayings, even the saying ought to be held lightly. No one,

> > and I mean no

> > > > > > > > > one, with an ounce of sense thinks that you should give up

> > planning and

> > > > > > > > > thinking. But as the Serenity Prayer suggests, recognize the

> > things you

> > > > > > > > > cannot change. And if you find yourself grinding through

> > some thoughts

> > > > > > > > > over and over and over and over, and, yes, over†" maybe,

> > just maybe it

> > > > > > > > > is time to let go of thinking for a moment and choose some

> > small act, or

> > > > > > > > > series of acts, that serves your values. As they say in AA,

> > " Do the

> > > > > > > > > next right thing. " This is not just AA folk wisdom; there is

> > a

> > > > > > > > > substantial body of scientific evidence that shows that

> > worry and rumi-

> > > > > > > > > nation†" a couple of very popular ways to get lost in

> > > > > > > > > thought†" produce bad outcomes. And there is also a

> > convincing body of

> > > > > > > > > evidence that suggests that moving your feet and actually

> > doing things

> > > > > > > > > (sometimes called behavioral activation by psychologists) is

> > very good

> > > > > > > > > medicine. In closing, on this little note, consider this AA

> > adage:

> > > > > > > > > " In AA you live your way into a new way of thinking. You do

> > not

> > > > > > > > > think your way into a new way of living. "

> > > > > > > > > > > By the way, for people who do not like 12-step, the

> > pieces of the

> > > > > > > > > book that are about 12-step/AA connections are set in

> > sections separate

> > > > > > > > > from the general text. People can easily read them or not.

> > The main

> > > > > > > > > stream of the text is ACT oriented recovery without AA, but

> > the two

> > > > > > > > > streams are crafted to be compatible and complimentary.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > with warm regards,

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > G.

> > > > > > > > > > > 205 Peabody Building

> > > > > > > > > > > Psychology Department

> > > > > > > > > > > University of Mississippi

> > > > > > > > > > > Oxford, MS 38677

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > ph :

> > > > > > > > > > > fax:

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > academic homepage:

> > > > > > > > > > > www. olemiss . edu /working/ kwilson / kwilson . htm

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > also check out

> > > > > > > > > > > www. onelifellc .com

> > > > > > > > > > > www. mindfulnessfortwo .com

> > > > > > > > > > > www.facebook.com/ kellygwilson

> > > > > > > > > > > www. tastybehaviorism .com

> > > > > > > > > > > www. abnormalwootwoot .com

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Terry,No hard feelings. And given that nobody's perfect, is it possible to be mindful of the behavior without getting fused with negative self-judgements about it? Easier said than done, I know. Still I admire the honesty you've shown in these recent posts.Best,Jim

Jim,

I am truly sorry you felt cornered by my words. Thanks for letting me know, it's important information. That's a big cost for getting caught up in a battle which truth be told I don't even give a hoot about. You will think what you think about this and that, say what you say, and my life will go on and the sun will set on yet another day. Another precious day. It appears a part of me can readily get tangled up in such discussions over staying quietly with my experience. Like I need you to say it in such and such way before I can breathe. Wow. Thanks so much again for your feedback here.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think "get me alone" here doesn't mean quiet

> > > > > contemplation time

> > > > > > > > > > > > which, as you suggest is a good thing. It's about turning

> > > > > your back on

> > > > > > > > > > > > your program and support network until you're isolated

> > > and

> > > > > vulnerable.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jim

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > .

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > < serv . gif >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm with Jim on this. I have always assumed that

> > > these

> > > > > admonitions

> > > > > > > > > > > > about "my disease wants to get me alone so it can kill

> > > me"

> > > > > as preemptive

> > > > > > > > > > > > of the nasty outcomes of fusion and avoidance--to use ACT

> > > > > language.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sometimes, when things are said out loud, with a bit

> > > of

> > > > > recognizing

> > > > > > > > > > > > them as thoughts perspective changes a bit ("so the other

> > > > > day, I was

> > > > > > > > > > > > alone in my apartment and my head says to me...one drink?

> > > > > What's the big

> > > > > > > > > > > > deal?"). If someone were to say that out loud at an AA

> > > > > meeting, they

> > > > > > > > > > > > would get a chuckle. Hearing it, they might chuckle

> > > > > themselves.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cut yourself off from social support. Spend a bunch

> > > of

> > > > > time alone

> > > > > > > > > > > > ruminating/worrying. What happens? We are social

> > > creatures

> > > > > and spending

> > > > > > > > > > > > a lot of time cut off is bad medicine. Alone and

> > > > > ruminating/worrying is

> > > > > > > > > > > > a formula for bad outcomes.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Time for meditation, sure. Demonstrably good stuff.

> > > > > Buddhists say so

> > > > > > > > > > > > (well, really, all the great spiritual traditions). AA

> > > says

> > > > > so. And,

> > > > > > > > > > > > psychological science says so. As long as people get the

> > > > > distinction

> > > > > > > > > > > > between meditation and rumination:-)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > In my most recent book I talk about a lot of great

> > > > > defusion and

> > > > > > > > > > > > active life engagement found in AA: here is a snippet

> > > from

> > > > > The Wisdom to

> > > > > > > > > > > > Know the Difference

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.amazon.com/ gp /product/1572249285/ref=as_

> > > li _

> > > > > tf _ tl ? ie =UTF8 & tag=\

> > > > > > > > > > > > mindfortwo20 & linkCode =as2 & camp=1789 & creative=9325 &

> > > > > creativeASIN =157224928\

> > > > > > > > > > > > 5< http://www.amazon.com/ gp

> > > /product/1572249285/ref=as_ li

> > > > > _ tf _ tl ? ie =UTF8 & tag=mindfortwo20 & linkCode

> > > > > =as2 & camp=1789 & creative=9325 & creativeASIN =1572249285 >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > "There are many other 12-step sayings you might hear

> > > in

> > > > > meetings

> > > > > > > > > > > > that contain this admonishment to hold what we think

> > > > > lightly. "You

> > > > > > > > > > > > have a thinking problem, not a drinking problem" points

> > > to a

> > > > > > > > > > > > tendency to get caught in worry and rumination and to

> > > lose

> > > > > direct

> > > > > > > > > > > > contact with your own life. It is, of course, really a

> > > > > warning against

> > > > > > > > > > > > overthinking , not thinking per se . The problem of

> > > fusion

> > > > > is a problem of

> > > > > > > > > > > > letting thinking about life substitute for life. In

> > > keeping

> > > > > with the

> > > > > > > > > > > > oftentimes self-deprecating humor found around AA, a

> > > > > favorite saying is,

> > > > > > > > > > > > "Don't go into your mind alone; it's not a safe

> > > > > > > > > > > > neighborhood," and there's this version from Narcotics

> > > > > > > > > > > > Anonymous: "An addict alone is in bad company." These

> > > sayings

> > > > > > > > > > > > can be interpreted as negative self-statements, but if

> > > they

> > > > > are held

> > > > > > > > > > > > lightly, and in kindness, what they point toward is the

> > > > > human tendency

> > > > > > > > > > > > to become so engaged in analysis and speculation that we

> > > > > lose contact

> > > > > > > > > > > > with the directly experienced world. When you hear a

> > > > > recovering

> > > > > > > > > > > > alcoholic, sitting in a church basement at an AA meeting,

> > > > > say with a

> > > > > > > > > > > > smile on his or her face, "My best thinking got me

> > > here," you

> > > > > > > > > > > > are not looking at self-hatred, you are looking at

> > > someone

> > > > > who has

> > > > > > > > > > > > learned through trial and error that sometimes their best

> > > > > thinking on a

> > > > > > > > > > > > given day is a great source of amusement on another day.

> > > > > Sayings like

> > > > > > > > > > > > "Don't intellectualize, utilize" are calls to action.

> > > > > > > > > > > > Thinking about recovery is not the same as active

> > > recovery.

> > > > > AA is a

> > > > > > > > > > > > program of action, not a program of thinking about

> > > action.

> > > > > Ponder, for

> > > > > > > > > > > > example, the saying "The three most dangerous words for

> > > an

> > > > > > > > > > > > alcoholicâ€"`I've been thinking.'" As with the other

> > > 12-step

> > > > > > > > > > > > sayings, even the saying ought to be held lightly. No

> > > one,

> > > > > and I mean no

> > > > > > > > > > > > one, with an ounce of sense thinks that you should give

> > > up

> > > > > planning and

> > > > > > > > > > > > thinking. But as the Serenity Prayer suggests, recognize

> > > the

> > > > > things you

> > > > > > > > > > > > cannot change. And if you find yourself grinding through

> > > > > some thoughts

> > > > > > > > > > > > over and over and over and over, and, yes, overâ€"maybe,

> > > > > just maybe it

> > > > > > > > > > > > is time to let go of thinking for a moment and choose

> > > some

> > > > > small act, or

> > > > > > > > > > > > series of acts, that serves your values. As they say in

> > > AA,

> > > > > "Do the

> > > > > > > > > > > > next right thing." This is not just AA folk wisdom;

> > > there is

> > > > > a

> > > > > > > > > > > > substantial body of scientific evidence that shows that

> > > > > worry and rumi-

> > > > > > > > > > > > nationâ€"a couple of very popular ways to get lost in

> > > > > > > > > > > > thoughtâ€"produce bad outcomes. And there is also a

> > > > > convincing body of

> > > > > > > > > > > > evidence that suggests that moving your feet and actually

> > > > > doing things

> > > > > > > > > > > > (sometimes called behavioral activation by

> > > psychologists) is

> > > > > very good

> > > > > > > > > > > > medicine. In closing, on this little note, consider this

> > > AA

> > > > > adage:

> > > > > > > > > > > > "In AA you live your way into a new way of thinking. You

> > > do

> > > > > not

> > > > > > > > > > > > think your way into a new way of living."

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > By the way, for people who do not like 12-step, the

> > > > > pieces of the

> > > > > > > > > > > > book that are about 12-step/AA connections are set in

> > > > > sections separate

> > > > > > > > > > > > from the general text. People can easily read them or

> > > not.

> > > > > The main

> > > > > > > > > > > > stream of the text is ACT oriented recovery without AA,

> > > but

> > > > > the two

> > > > > > > > > > > > streams are crafted to be compatible and complimentary.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > with warm regards,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > G.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 205 Peabody Building

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Psychology Department

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > University of Mississippi

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oxford, MS 38677

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ph :

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > fax:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > academic homepage:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > www. olemiss . edu /working/ kwilson / kwilson . htm

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > also check out

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > www. onelifellc .com

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > www. mindfulnessfortwo .com

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.facebook.com/ kellygwilson

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > www. tastybehaviorism .com

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > www. abnormalwootwoot .com

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

Jim Designer | Developerhttp://www.jryanportfolio.com