Guest guest Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 Alberto,Your English was very easy for me to follow....Whenever we discuss these issues, we are invested not in awakening, but rather in a limited model of such built from symbols - language. Keeping that in mind, I might agree that discussing defusion uses many of the same symbolic concepts as talking about awakening. There is nobody because peeling back the last layers of the onion leaves no final core. Yet when all the layers are in place and their effect considered, there is an onion. But only when we discuss it.... D> >> I have been reading ACT books last year and it makes sense to me. I have been reading books about advaita and non-dual thinking last few months and they talk about " awakening " and I would like to ask you about this. >> If I understand, ACT considers two main kind of selves:>> -Conceptual self>> -Observer self (and streaming of consciousness)>> If I ask who am I, the conceptual self falls apart. >> It seems that I am the observer self. However, this observer self seems that depends entirely on the conceptual self (and thoughts, feelings, urges...). It seems the observer and observed depend each other and the observer cannot exist without the observed. >> So, who am I? It seems that deep down I am " nothing " and the other people are " nothing " as well. So, here I am, " nobody " writing to " nobody " ...>> It seems this " awaking " thing happens when people realize that deep down they are " nothing " . >> It is interesting because, if they are right, emotions, thoughts and urges " just happens " ...to nobody. They are floating around so to speak.>> If these people really believe this, they are in a state of extreme detachment (defusion) of everything (from themselves, from others and from the world), because we are one with others, the nature and the world. The side-effect " might be " an extreme sense of acceptation and peace. >> It seems like the " awaking " is like the ACT defusion, but with a step further. You defuse from your thoughts, your emotions, your urges, your conceptual self AND your observer self into the nothingness or the everythingfullness so to speak. >> I would like to know your opinion. Thank you.>> Alberto> P.S. Sorry. I am not very good writing in English.>> -- Darrell G King, RN, CASAC-TRochester, NY, UShttp://darrellking.com DarrellGKing@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 Darrel, thank you " onion metaphor " . We have onion-selves, onion-values, onion-thoughts, onion-emotions, onion-urges in an onion-world. If we start to peel back these onions, we will find " nothing " . Conclusion: Deep down we are nobody in nowhere talking about nothing and thinking and feeling nothing, accepting nothing and acting according to nothing-values for nothing.... It seems that this kind of thinking is useful for some people and they experience deep peaceful emotions or whatever this " nothing " thing is for them, because " it cannot be expresed by words " . Anyway, it seems to me something related to the Cotard delusion. Best regards, Alberto > > > > > > I have been reading ACT books last year and it makes sense to me. I have > been reading books about advaita and non-dual thinking last few months and > they talk about " awakening " and I would like to ask you about this. > > > > If I understand, ACT considers two main kind of selves: > > > > -Conceptual self > > > > -Observer self (and streaming of consciousness) > > > > If I ask who am I, the conceptual self falls apart. > > > > It seems that I am the observer self. However, this observer self seems > that depends entirely on the conceptual self (and thoughts, feelings, > urges...). It seems the observer and observed depend each other and the > observer cannot exist without the observed. > > > > So, who am I? It seems that deep down I am " nothing " and the other people > are " nothing " as well. So, here I am, " nobody " writing to " nobody " ... > > > > It seems this " awaking " thing happens when people realize that deep down > they are " nothing " . > > > > It is interesting because, if they are right, emotions, thoughts and > urges " just happens " ...to nobody. They are floating around so to speak. > > > > If these people really believe this, they are in a state of extreme > detachment (defusion) of everything (from themselves, from others and from > the world), because we are one with others, the nature and the world. The > side-effect " might be " an extreme sense of acceptation and peace. > > > > It seems like the " awaking " is like the ACT defusion, but with a step > further. You defuse from your thoughts, your emotions, your urges, your > conceptual self AND your observer self into the nothingness or the > everythingfullness so to speak. > > > > I would like to know your opinion. Thank you. > > > > Alberto > > P.S. Sorry. I am not very good writing in English. > > > > > > -- > Darrell G King, RN, CASAC-T > Rochester, NY, US > http://darrellking.com > DarrellGKing@... > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 To be nothing or nonexistent ( " Cotard delusion " ) is as much as delusion or concept as existing. It is all mental discourse attempting to describe what is. As re silly onion metaphors.... When I am really curious about what it all means, I stop thinking about it. D> >> Darrel, thank you " onion metaphor " .>> We have onion-selves, onion-values, onion-thoughts, onion-emotions, onion-urges in an onion-world. If we start to peel back these onions, we will find " nothing " . >> Conclusion:>> Deep down we are nobody in nowhere talking about nothing and thinking and feeling nothing, accepting nothing and acting according to nothing-values for nothing....>> It seems that this kind of thinking is useful for some people and they experience deep peaceful emotions or whatever this " nothing " thing is for them, because " it cannot be expresed by words " . >> Anyway, it seems to me something related to the Cotard delusion.>> Best regards,> Alberto>> >> >>> >>> > I have been reading ACT books last year and it makes sense to me. I have>> been reading books about advaita and non-dual thinking last few months and>> they talk about " awakening " and I would like to ask you about this. >> >>> > If I understand, ACT considers two main kind of selves:>> >>> > -Conceptual self>> >>> > -Observer self (and streaming of consciousness) >> >>> > If I ask who am I, the conceptual self falls apart.>> >>> > It seems that I am the observer self. However, this observer self seems>> that depends entirely on the conceptual self (and thoughts, feelings, >> urges...). It seems the observer and observed depend each other and the>> observer cannot exist without the observed.>> >>> > So, who am I? It seems that deep down I am " nothing " and the other people >> are " nothing " as well. So, here I am, " nobody " writing to " nobody " ...>> >>> > It seems this " awaking " thing happens when people realize that deep down >> they are " nothing " .>> >>> > It is interesting because, if they are right, emotions, thoughts and>> urges " just happens " ...to nobody. They are floating around so to speak. >> >>> > If these people really believe this, they are in a state of extreme>> detachment (defusion) of everything (from themselves, from others and from>> the world), because we are one with others, the nature and the world. The >> side-effect " might be " an extreme sense of acceptation and peace.>> >>> > It seems like the " awaking " is like the ACT defusion, but with a step>> further. You defuse from your thoughts, your emotions, your urges, your >> conceptual self AND your observer self into the nothingness or the>> everythingfullness so to speak.>> >>> > I would like to know your opinion. Thank you.>> >>> > Alberto >> > P.S. Sorry. I am not very good writing in English.>> >>> >>>>> -->> Darrell G King, RN, CASAC-T>> Rochester, NY, US>> http://darrellking.com >> DarrellGKing@...>>>> -- Darrell G King, RN, CASAC-TRochester, NY, UShttp://darrellking.comDarrellGKing@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 Darrel, maybe you are right and it's better to stop thinking about this. I am not sure about the psychiatric labels. Maybe some crazy people are crazy because they are closer to the truth. I have been watching several interviews with awakened non-dual people (or no-people) and I think they have tricked themselves into believing that they not have egos. They are egos that think they don't exist, but they only have changed their points of reference. Some of them might be following this thinking as a religious belief without any real content. Of course some of them might be lying because of business reasons. , I think I understand your explanation. We are like grains of sand in an infinite desert and we are almost nothing. Our " almost nothing " existence is a fluctuation of energy or vibration in the oneness, but we are not different from this oneness. Everything is one. This one is energy (or vibration or whatever) and we are only an infinitesimal second. We are not observing this energy, but this energy is observing itself using us as a vehicle. We have the illusion of a separation, but we are one with this energy. We are writing this and some people are reading this, but why are we doing these actions? It just happens. This energy has used me to send my purposeless message. This energy is purposeles replying. This energy is purposeles reading. This energy is purposeles evaluating. Who are we? We are just purposeles vehicles. Our bodies, thoughts, emotions, urges, selves (conceptual and observing)...our acceptance, surrender, values and actions are manifestations are bubbles of this energy. This energy uses us, but it doesn't need us. I mean, it doesn't need our identity or our " self " . We are energetic machines (as complex as you want) that arise, interact and disappear into the energy like the waves into the ocean. We are only fluctuations of this oneness. This means that everything is impersonal and our personal view of reality is an illusion. Everything is purposeless and our sense of control and purpose is only an illusion. This idea can be scaring, but liberating as well. Why? Because there is nothing to worry. Our worries and sufferings are nothing but bubbles from this playful energy or oneness. At this levelthere is no good, bad, better or worse. Everything is perfect because it is as it has to be. Everything just happens and we just have to continue living our dream, but this time knowing that is only a purposeless dream. Now we are " awakened " . Best regards, Alberto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 Alberto,I did not mean to say it was better not to think about it. In fact, the research says such a statement would be a silly way to avoid thinking about it.... But I would not bother to pursue that cure because I have a whole mental contraption that is suited for nothing else but thinking about it, so it would be kind of odd to use it to not do what it does so well! What I did mean to say is that I try to avoid confusing the thinking with the thing. Defusion.We can discuss awakening all day long and create intricate, sparkling mental models of it that must be amongst the most wondrous things in all of reality, on a par with a hummingbird's flight or the visual glory of vast nebulae. Such a skill and remarkable phenomenon, to be able to assemble these in our minds! They assist with memory, prediction, and communication, and are marvelous in that regard, although such discussions are never more than manipulation of symbols. To think of awakening, or dinner, or the most horrible tragedy in my life is essentially the same behavior: sliding symbols past my attention. I am doing it with this note. And sometimes I get so involved with my creations, I forget they are just bubbles. To experience awakening (or whatever), though, to reap the value of it, to feel the thing we are trying so hard to discuss, is a much simpler behavior than writing this note. Just attend to my attention. Mindfulness. I certainly did not intend to dampen conversation, and I apologize if I came across like that. Our thinking minds (mine is the same as yours and 's, and always will be) love to play with these things! Such behavior is enjoyable, and has many practical uses. All I was floundering to express was the difference between the complexity of describing awakening and the simplicity of experiencing it. Please forgive any verbal clumsiness on my part.... D Darrel, maybe you are right and it's better to stop thinking about this. I am not sure about the psychiatric labels. Maybe some crazy people are crazy because they are closer to the truth. I have been watching several interviews with awakened non-dual people (or no-people) and I think they have tricked themselves into believing that they not have egos. They are egos that think they don't exist, but they only have changed their points of reference. Some of them might be following this thinking as a religious belief without any real content. Of course some of them might be lying because of business reasons. , I think I understand your explanation. We are like grains of sand in an infinite desert and we are almost nothing. Our " almost nothing " existence is a fluctuation of energy or vibration in the oneness, but we are not different from this oneness. Everything is one. This one is energy (or vibration or whatever) and we are only an infinitesimal second. We are not observing this energy, but this energy is observing itself using us as a vehicle. We have the illusion of a separation, but we are one with this energy. We are writing this and some people are reading this, but why are we doing these actions? It just happens. This energy has used me to send my purposeless message. This energy is purposeles replying. This energy is purposeles reading. This energy is purposeles evaluating. Who are we? We are just purposeles vehicles. Our bodies, thoughts, emotions, urges, selves (conceptual and observing)...our acceptance, surrender, values and actions are manifestations are bubbles of this energy. This energy uses us, but it doesn't need us. I mean, it doesn't need our identity or our " self " . We are energetic machines (as complex as you want) that arise, interact and disappear into the energy like the waves into the ocean. We are only fluctuations of this oneness. This means that everything is impersonal and our personal view of reality is an illusion. Everything is purposeless and our sense of control and purpose is only an illusion. This idea can be scaring, but liberating as well. Why? Because there is nothing to worry. Our worries and sufferings are nothing but bubbles from this playful energy or oneness. At this levelthere is no good, bad, better or worse. Everything is perfect because it is as it has to be. Everything just happens and we just have to continue living our dream, but this time knowing that is only a purposeless dream. Now we are " awakened " . Best regards, Alberto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 I agree, but I have been practicing a few meditation techniques for over 20 years. I think 25 years. My goal was to feel better. Sometimes I really feel like floating. I have almost never talked about this with other people because most of them are New Age prone and I am more analytical or verbal. Last year I discovered that people are using this in mainstream psychology (mindfulness, ACT...) I knew that sooner or later this will happen. I am very curious about other people experiences and how they explain things. What explicit or implicit models they use? I am surprised with some explanations because I only feel better and my basic " metaphysics " is the same as always: " raw " realism. > > > Darrel, maybe you are right and it's better to stop thinking about this. > > I am not sure about the psychiatric labels. Maybe some crazy people are > crazy because they are closer to the truth. > > I have been watching several interviews with awakened non-dual people (or > no-people) and I think they have tricked themselves into believing that > they not have egos. They are egos that think they don't exist, but they > only have changed their points of reference. Some of them might be > following this thinking as a religious belief without any real content. Of > course some of them might be lying because of business reasons. > > , I think I understand your explanation. We are like grains of sand > in an infinite desert and we are almost nothing. Our " almost nothing " > existence is a fluctuation of energy or vibration in the oneness, but we > are not different from this oneness. > > Everything is one. This one is energy (or vibration or whatever) and we are > only an infinitesimal second. We are not observing this energy, but this > energy is observing itself using us as a vehicle. We have the illusion of a > separation, but we are one with this energy. > > We are writing this and some people are reading this, but why are we doing > these actions? It just happens. This energy has used me to send my > purposeless message. This energy is purposeles replying. This energy is > purposeles reading. This energy is purposeles evaluating. Who are we? We > are just purposeles vehicles. > > Our bodies, thoughts, emotions, urges, selves (conceptual and > observing)...our acceptance, surrender, values and actions are > manifestations are bubbles of this energy. This energy uses us, but it > doesn't need us. I mean, it doesn't need our identity or our " self " . We are > energetic machines (as complex as you want) that arise, interact and > disappear into the energy like the waves into the ocean. We are only > fluctuations of this oneness. > > This means that everything is impersonal and our personal view of reality > is an illusion. Everything is purposeless and our sense of control and > purpose is only an illusion. > > This idea can be scaring, but liberating as well. Why? Because there is > nothing to worry. Our worries and sufferings are nothing but bubbles from > this playful energy or oneness. At this levelthere is no good, bad, better > or worse. Everything is perfect because it is as it has to be. > > Everything just happens and we just have to continue living our dream, but > this time knowing that is only a purposeless dream. Now we are " awakened " . > > Best regards, > Alberto > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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